No not me personally but I have a question. Does the fiddle sound the same to player as it does to the listener or is the fact that its so close to your ear and face alter the true sound of it?
Sounds different - you can tell just by playing someone elses fiddle. Ever had that experiece where a fiddle sounds really good when someone else plays it, the you have a go and it sounds completly diffrent and all wrong? I have, all the time!
Its true, completely different sound! Even if you start playing it, say, down on your chest(kinda old time american) then its amazing the difference. You always wonder wether your fiddle sounds as good to others as it does to you!
Makes it hard to buy a fiddle on your own, i have always taken a friend who's playing and opinion i trust as you can hear what the fiddle sounds like played by another fiddle player (rather than a classical player who works in the shop as they'll generally get a different sound out of it!)
As long as your happy with the sound, thats all that matters, you are the one who has to listen to it the most!
BB - what you say is that its sounds better to others but Jamie you say "You always wonder wether your fiddle sounds as good to others as it does to you!" implying it sounds better to the player than to the listener. Do you mean you wonder whether it sounds the same to others as it does to you?
I was just pointing out how different it sounds - to a player and to a listener - the only reason I think it sounds so bad is cause I'm not used to the other persons fiddle. Its like when your a kid and you have a blankie and no other blankie in the world is the same (or as good)
what a great comparison bb! for all i know my fiddle could sound as good to everyone else as it does to me, but i just dont know, think i might lend it to someone next session and have a listen to how it sounds....
Did actually have a guy say on wed night who was sitting behind me how nice the sound was off my fiddle, so that was a plus!
Talking of fiddles, is anyone else annoyed at how there are so many fiddles in the world in peoples attics not being played. My friend and i thought we should approach the scottish government and ask for jobs searching through peoples attics and storage space for old instruments and reclaiming them for musicians who would play them!!
I was playing a concert a couple of weeks ago and this older guy, about 70 came up to me and said his grandad and great grandad both played the fiddle and he has both their instruments in his house, he never played them and dosn't have anyone else in the family that would either, i offered to play them for him but he kind of laughed it off....... aaaaarrrgghh. its just not fair!
Yeah - but there are an awful lot of fiddle players around - its seems to be the most popular instrument of the moment. People always say that you cant have more than one accordian, bodhran etc but its ok to have loads of fiddles. I like a couple but anything more than maybe 4, depending on how big a session is sounds like a fiddle orchestra )
one is kind of rough but it came down from my aunt. it was in terrible nick so i had it revarnished. label is written in pencil saying its bu august birhimer of germany in the 1870s but who knows.
I remember a comment made in sandy bells many years ago. a flute lover came into the session saw there were about 8 fiddles and one flute and said "its those !!!!ing fiddlers again" and he meant it.
George, here's the easiest way to tell what your fiddle sounds like away from you, and there's the added plus of it improving your playing: record yourself playing.
I'm always shocked at how different my fiddle sounds when I'm not putting my chin on it and hearing partly by vibration. The demo taping we recently did really pointed this up, especially since we did it at a studio with some really good mikes and recording equipment and an excellent tech. There's a tendency to think that a cheapo tape recorder changes your sound, but in real life, it just sounds different when you're not part of the instrument.
I've been told that most fiddles sound better at a distance (out of earshot is best, in some cases *grin*) because you get the full effect of the overtones produced by the instrument. Whereas when your ear is right over the f hole, you're only hearing part of the whole sound. The player also hears more bow and finger noise, most of which can't be heard beyond a few feet away.
So I desperately imagine that my fiddle sounds better to other people in the room than it does to me. Lord, *please* let that be true....
Yeah, if your playing the fiddle then your ears next to all the action so you hear all the scratchyness and rough bits. Anyone watching wont be able to hear those bits, theyl only pick up on the musicality of wat your playing.
I get to worry about this problem all the time when I am outdoors. Hot days, Cool days, Cold as Ice days, Humid, Dry, Windy. It doesn't do me any good to worry about those times. And there is not a thing I can do about how I am going to sound to my audience.
I would prefer to know that the audience hears the tone that I hear out of my instrument. I would prefer that they don't hear the skrits I make when the bow touches the wrong string. In a quiet small room (maybe 8 tables) I believe that the room is a part of the Fiddle. The richness and warmth comes from everywhere.
I don't much care for what a single mic will pick up. For that matter - I am less fond of what a pickup pulls out of the instrument but you don't have to worry about inconsistent tones. I believe that combining the two and having an attentative soundman who knows your music can help put out some of the best sound.
I find that the audience isn't nearly as discriminating as I am about the sound of my violin. A pick up does just fine for them. If the sound man wants to modify my sound to put the "fat" back into it, I let him go.
Does my violin sound better to the audience or me. If I'm mic'd twice and blah blah - Good for the audience. If I am in a cozy room with a good audience - it sounds good to the audience and me. If I'm outdoors without amplification It's hard for it to sound better to the audience.
I think the best way to find out how you are sounding is to ask your spouse or significant other. You'll get the truth. I made a tape for a friend of some tunes we've been playing in a session. It came out horrible! I sounded so much worse on this tape then what I actually hear. But my husband listened to a tune on the tape and said, " jeez, that tape doesn't do you justice". So I think I really sound a bit better than the cheap recording, but probably not quite as good as what I'm actually hearing. Hopefully that made sense.
Joyce
I like Skip Healy's advice, recently posted by him as a tip on his website (www.skiphealy.com), to wit:
Learn to listen to yourself as your audience hears you, not just the notes in your head. In other words, listen to the actual tones coming out of your instrument--are they what you want people to hear?
I find this feels a bit like a split personality (and *don't* ask me how I know what that feels like, heh) because you have part of your brain playing the tune in your head so your body knows what to do, and part of your brain listening to the result. Ideally, you find the time to adjust the sound to more closely match that rhapsodic, heavenly music the first part of your brain is imagining.
Another way of thinking about this same idea is to pay close attention to how your sound blends with your session or band mates. Focus on adjusting your volume, tempo, phrasing, note choices, tone, etc. to improve the overall sound, not just *your* sound.
On another tangent, I used to think I was cheating when I practiced in the bathroom or any room with lots of reverb. All that echo made my fiddle sound like a Strad, and I could imagine joining any top player in a recording studio. It was always disappointing then to step outside and hear the weak scratchy tone when all the richness dissapated into the upper atmosphere.
But I've heard that many top fiddlers like to practice in high-reverb rooms, or facing a hard wall at close proximity so the sound comes right back to them. I think it does help, first because it keeps you inspired instead of frustrated, and second because it lets you hear every little nuance of the sounds you're making (too much reverb can swamp it though, so shoose your room carefully). So now I use the reverb rooms to fine tune my tone and the crispness of bow and finger articulation, and it really does seem to help. I also like it better than taping myself because the feedback loop is more immediate--I hear my mistakes and successes as they're happening. This too is good practice for listening as you play.
Also I think using a mute (for me) gives me the most positive feedback. Does anyone here ever use a mute or know what I mean? The mute cuts out a lot of "fuzz" in fact for me it reproduces the sound of the recording on Frankie Goes to Town (ok I wont get big headed, but really when I use a mute I feel Im playing well not virtuoso standard but competent). The downside is that when the mute come off it takes 2 weeks for me to get used to the sound of fiddle "unleashed" again and in the first few days I feel disheartened at the "noise".
I gave my practise mute to a friend who was learning to play and needed to cut down on the vibrations cutting into his neighbors' apartments. One of these days I'll go get another one.
For those who might not know, a practice mute looks like a great big rubber fork-like thing -- the prongs go over the bridge inbetween the strings. To get a "covered" sound for certain effects (the Berceuse from the Firebird Suite is probably a famous example), you use a smaller version of the practise mute, a concert mute. There are two kinds of concert mutes, the ones that hang on your strings between the bridge and the tailpiece and slide up the strings to the bridge when needed, and the ones that are the fork-like things made of wood. Concert mutes don't actually lower the volume, they just create that "covered" sound. Practise mutes, though, since they're bigger and chunkier and made of rubber, do lower the sound volume somewhat.
The mute damps the vibrations going to the body of the fiddle by damping the ability of the bridge to vibrate and so pass those vibrations to the face plate.
I wouldn't really use the mute too much, George -- you have to get used to playing your fiddle without it, you know! Work at getting the sound you like without a mute, is my advice!
Listening to yourself play correctly is a lot harder than people imagine -- recording yourself is good because you 1) actually hear what you're doing -- oftentimes when you're playing, you really hearing what's in your head or you're not necessarily skilled at standing apart from your playing yet, 2) you can listen instead of concentrating on both playing and listening and so you'll hear better, and 3) you can compare recordings of yourself to an admired player's work and figure out how to get closer to the style you want to play. Will's advice above is excellent, and takes work to do properly. You'll get less nervous if you keep recording yourself with every practise session -- after a while it becomes more natural.
George, I can empathize with you for wanting to use the mute to kill all the "extra" noise, but In my experience it was a bad habit to get into. The mute let me bang away with the bow, bearing down as hard as I wanted. This didn't help me develop a more sensitive connection to the bow and hair and strings.
What you really want to aim for is a cleaner, more controlled sound *without* the mute. One of the best ways I've found to do that is to practice playing as softly as you possible can with no mute. Pretend you're playing over the crib of a sleeping baby. See how quietly you can play and still produce a reasonable tone. At first, it might be difficult to play up tempo or energetic tunes this way, and it's okay to try this first with airs and slow paced tunes. But eventually you should work it up to cranking through fast-paced reels etc. at a whisper.
The key to this is lightening up your bow pressure, which is mostly a matter of relaxing your grip on the bow till it's little more than skin friction keeping the stick in your fingers, and relaxing pressure on the hairs, maybe even imagining the stick filled with helium so it wants to float off the strings.
All this pays off in increased control and feel when you go back to playing at "normal" volume.
Zina's right that listening to yourself play while you're actually playing can be difficult, especially in the beginning stages of learning an instrument. All the more reason, I'd say, to start practicing it as soon as possible. Nothing wrong with recording yourself, if you're so inclined, but sooner or later you've got to be able to listen carefully at the same time as keeping a tune going full tilt--it's probably the single most important skill that will take your playing to higher levels.
Once again Zina - Thanks (not what I wanted to hear - smile - but appreciated. so ill move on to the non-mute phase i guess unleess the weight of opinion comes in here
as for the greatnesss of bathrooms/toilets I was at a TMSA (Traditional Music of Scotland ) festival in Kinross in the 70s. some fiddlers were playing in the gents loo, Aly Bain Came in then went and got his fiddle. Then some more folk came in and liked what they heard. At this festival there were the 40 Shetland fiddlers plus thier pianist (female). So the boys carried in a piano and she came in and a great session was had in the toilet with gentleman doing their business and appreciating the music. Great Sound
But seriously . . . I would never do any practise in a reverby (is that a word?) room. My favourite place to practise is outside, so that the only sound I can hear is the sound my instrument is making. I find this is the best way for me to zoom in on all the little details - tone, intonation, tidy string crossing, shifts that don't sound like they go bleaghh! Especially tone. I once did a lot of practise in an incredibly dead room, with white boards on the walls to soak up the reverb. Then I went for a lesson in my teachers house, and he told me my tone had improved.
I guess what I'm saying is I'd prefer to "practise" somewhere dead, but I'll happily "play" anywhere, bathrooms included!
I have to agree with you to a certain extent. It's nice to always practice in a room that is kind to you but there is nothing like practicing outside or in a sound room. It might be hard to take all unrelieved harshness but your playing gets better because of.
When you are ready Donnchad, give a go in those ruthless rooms. When you sound good in one of those, you can sound good anywhere.
Have I got this right, Donnchad - there were 40 Shetland fiddlers, a piano, and sundry other musicians all having a session in the gents ?
How big are the loos in Scotland ?? The sound must have been great though. I was at a session once held in a corridor leading into the gents. at a Fleadh in Birmingham many years ago. The leader of the session was none other than Kevin Burke.
Somebody assured me once that there really was a tune called "The Trip to the Jacks", Can anyone confirm this?
Have I got this right, Donnchad - there were 40 Shetland fiddlers, a piano, and sundry other musicians all having a session in the gents ?
How big are the loos in Scotland ?? The sound must have been great though. I was at a session once held in a corridor leading into the gents. at a Fleadh in Birmingham many years ago. The leader of the session was none other than Kevin Burke.
Somebody assured me once that there really was a tune called "The Trip to the Jacks", Can anyone confirm this?
No the 40 fiddlers were at the festival not in the loo, tho there were many people including ladies (who didnt seem to mind that numerous men coming in to do what they had to. The loo was one of the hotel bar loos and was tiled with a hard floor. It was a few fiddlers inluding Aly Bain and a guy i think is still in Edinburgh called Fred
Anyone other than me believe you can *feel* good tone? I don't know exactly how to put it into words, but a while back I reached a level where I have sporadic bursts of absolutely golden tone (usually when no-one else is around of course) and the whole instrument becomes a completely different thing. It lives. It vibrates from one end to the other and seems infinitely co-operative - almost eager to make me look good. (er... sound good). Thing is, I noticed the feeling before I noticed the tone. I just suddenly felt everything become completely effortless and a definite change in the level of vibration, *then* I happened to notice the fiddle was sounding absolutely gorgeous. I imagine if I strive to play with that feeling all the time, instead of accidentally, temporarily, and rarely, it won't matter what kind of room I'm in or how far away the audience is or whether or not I'm recording myself. I will know it is right by the way it feels.
One last thing, from a technical perspective, never ever ever ever compare a tape you made of yourself in your living room (or even your bathroom) to a professionally recorded CD (sorry, Zina, have to disagree). Millions of dollars worth of technology is employed to allow the "natural tone" to be reproduced. You'll end up confusing the shortcomings of your 40 dollar tape recorder with shortcomings in your playing. Martin Hayes' sound engineer makes him sound about as much better as a crappy home recording makes you sound worse. By all means, tape yourself, but only to hear a rough translation of your playing, not to evaluate yourself. It's eye-opening as far as pitch, speed and rhythm are concerned, but useless in terms of tone. (I think.)
Adieu. Next time you hear from me I'll be in Calgary.
Oh, no, no, no...I didn't mean that you were supposed to compare your TONE in a crappy little recording to recordings of your favorite influences...I meant you can compare your STYLE and technical stuff to those influences. (The *second* part of why it's advantageous to record yourself.) Shannon used to tell me that all the time, and then along comes George Keith and tells me the same thing -- and it really is helping, I notice a lot of things that I'm too busy playing to notice, on tapings.
Hope the move went smoothly -- I hate moving, and I REALLY hate moving in heat and muggy weather...
|I have taken everyones helpful advice. I broke my fiddle into tiny pieces and flused down the toilet. Also have turned the loo into a dead room. Now back to my button accordion. (joking of course)
Speaking of which...if people are serious about coming to Helena, Montana, here are the times that work best for me and my local cohorts in musical crime:
Anytime from July 8-14 (get out of the smoke now) or August 5-11, anytime after Labor Day, or wait until October when fiddler Cait Reid will be arriving to play and conduct workshops.
We have loads of camping space and probably some living room floors to sleep on, a regular Tuesday night session, good local beer, and homemade buttermilk waffles. What more do you need?
Sounds like Zina, Dirk, Sosaidh, and Kerri are possibilities. Anyone else? You can email directly by clicking on my screen name below.
maybe I'll have to do that... flights aren't too bad are they? The furthest west I've been yet is Windsor/Detroit, so this broaden my horizons. And Will, the homemade buttermilk waffles are enough to make me walk out there.
And I'll try not to break into any verbal rants at the end of the night...
Are you prone to verbal rants only at the end of the night, Searai? I'll show up so long as I don't have a feis at that point, Will. And perhaps I'll come up when Cait Reid is out regardless, if you can find me a bed, of what we decide about meeting earlier (the August dates, maybe? How about for everyone else?) -- although October is a bit of a rocky time schedule wise.
Glad you liked the fireworks, Will -- or rather that your kids do.
How do I sound
How do I sound
No not me personally but I have a question. Does the fiddle sound the same to player as it does to the listener or is the fact that its so close to your ear and face alter the true sound of it?
# Posted on June 27th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
Sounds different - you can tell just by playing someone elses fiddle. Ever had that experiece where a fiddle sounds really good when someone else plays it, the you have a go and it sounds completly diffrent and all wrong? I have, all the time!
# Posted on June 27th 2002 by bb
Re: How do I sound
Its true, completely different sound! Even if you start playing it, say, down on your chest(kinda old time american) then its amazing the difference. You always wonder wether your fiddle sounds as good to others as it does to you!
Makes it hard to buy a fiddle on your own, i have always taken a friend who's playing and opinion i trust as you can hear what the fiddle sounds like played by another fiddle player (rather than a classical player who works in the shop as they'll generally get a different sound out of it!)
As long as your happy with the sound, thats all that matters, you are the one who has to listen to it the most!
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by jamiedj
Re: How do I sound
AHHH
THANK THE LORD. I WAS HOPING THIS WAS THE CASE.
Is it the same with rolls (not bacon) cause i notice when i play with a mute that they sound really crisp but w/o the mute they sound different
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by donnchad
Which is better
BB - what you say is that its sounds better to others but Jamie you say "You always wonder wether your fiddle sounds as good to others as it does to you!" implying it sounds better to the player than to the listener. Do you mean you wonder whether it sounds the same to others as it does to you?
george
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
I was just pointing out how different it sounds - to a player and to a listener - the only reason I think it sounds so bad is cause I'm not used to the other persons fiddle. Its like when your a kid and you have a blankie and no other blankie in the world is the same
(or as good)
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by bb
Re: How do I sound
what a great comparison bb! for all i know my fiddle could sound as good to everyone else as it does to me, but i just dont know, think i might lend it to someone next session and have a listen to how it sounds....
Did actually have a guy say on wed night who was sitting behind me how nice the sound was off my fiddle, so that was a plus!
Talking of fiddles, is anyone else annoyed at how there are so many fiddles in the world in peoples attics not being played. My friend and i thought we should approach the scottish government and ask for jobs searching through peoples attics and storage space for old instruments and reclaiming them for musicians who would play them!!
I was playing a concert a couple of weeks ago and this older guy, about 70 came up to me and said his grandad and great grandad both played the fiddle and he has both their instruments in his house, he never played them and dosn't have anyone else in the family that would either, i offered to play them for him but he kind of laughed it off....... aaaaarrrgghh. its just not fair!
Anyway, thats the end of my rant.
Jamie
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by jamiedj
Re: How do I sound
Yeah - but there are an awful lot of fiddle players around - its seems to be the most popular instrument of the moment. People always say that you cant have more than one accordian, bodhran etc but its ok to have loads of fiddles. I like a couple but anything more than maybe 4, depending on how big a session is sounds like a fiddle orchestra
)
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by bb
Re: How do I sound
I have 2!
one is kind of rough but it came down from my aunt. it was in terrible nick so i had it revarnished. label is written in pencil saying its bu august birhimer of germany in the 1870s but who knows.
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by donnchad
Re: LOts of fiddles
I remember a comment made in sandy bells many years ago. a flute lover came into the session saw there were about 8 fiddles and one flute and said "its those !!!!ing fiddlers again" and he meant it.
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
Gotta love nights like that!!!!!!!
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by jamiedj
Re: How do I sound
donnchad - here is another example - you know how when you get taped talking - you'd swear it wasnt your own voice....same with a fiddle.
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by bb
Re: How do I sound
George, here's the easiest way to tell what your fiddle sounds like away from you, and there's the added plus of it improving your playing: record yourself playing.
I'm always shocked at how different my fiddle sounds when I'm not putting my chin on it and hearing partly by vibration. The demo taping we recently did really pointed this up, especially since we did it at a studio with some really good mikes and recording equipment and an excellent tech. There's a tendency to think that a cheapo tape recorder changes your sound, but in real life, it just sounds different when you're not part of the instrument.
Zina
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: How do I sound
Zina Thanks
I havent doen that for ages - Truth Hurts (Grin) would you believe I even get nervous when i know im recording myself - unbelievable?
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
I've been told that most fiddles sound better at a distance (out of earshot is best, in some cases *grin*) because you get the full effect of the overtones produced by the instrument. Whereas when your ear is right over the f hole, you're only hearing part of the whole sound. The player also hears more bow and finger noise, most of which can't be heard beyond a few feet away.
So I desperately imagine that my fiddle sounds better to other people in the room than it does to me. Lord, *please* let that be true....
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: How do I sound
Yeah, if your playing the fiddle then your ears next to all the action so you hear all the scratchyness and rough bits. Anyone watching wont be able to hear those bits, theyl only pick up on the musicality of wat your playing.
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by Wackadack
Re: How do I sound
So how the hell does anyone ever feel that theyre playing it right even the classicos must have the same problem
and what about things like flutes which are also up close
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
I get to worry about this problem all the time when I am outdoors. Hot days, Cool days, Cold as Ice days, Humid, Dry, Windy. It doesn't do me any good to worry about those times. And there is not a thing I can do about how I am going to sound to my audience.
I would prefer to know that the audience hears the tone that I hear out of my instrument. I would prefer that they don't hear the skrits I make when the bow touches the wrong string. In a quiet small room (maybe 8 tables) I believe that the room is a part of the Fiddle. The richness and warmth comes from everywhere.
I don't much care for what a single mic will pick up. For that matter - I am less fond of what a pickup pulls out of the instrument but you don't have to worry about inconsistent tones. I believe that combining the two and having an attentative soundman who knows your music can help put out some of the best sound.
I find that the audience isn't nearly as discriminating as I am about the sound of my violin. A pick up does just fine for them. If the sound man wants to modify my sound to put the "fat" back into it, I let him go.
Does my violin sound better to the audience or me. If I'm mic'd twice and blah blah - Good for the audience. If I am in a cozy room with a good audience - it sounds good to the audience and me. If I'm outdoors without amplification It's hard for it to sound better to the audience.
Mark
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: How do I sound
I think the best way to find out how you are sounding is to ask your spouse or significant other. You'll get the truth. I made a tape for a friend of some tunes we've been playing in a session. It came out horrible! I sounded so much worse on this tape then what I actually hear. But my husband listened to a tune on the tape and said, " jeez, that tape doesn't do you justice". So I think I really sound a bit better than the cheap recording, but probably not quite as good as what I'm actually hearing. Hopefully that made sense.
Joyce
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by JMH
Re: How do I sound
I like Skip Healy's advice, recently posted by him as a tip on his website (www.skiphealy.com), to wit:
Learn to listen to yourself as your audience hears you, not just the notes in your head. In other words, listen to the actual tones coming out of your instrument--are they what you want people to hear?
I find this feels a bit like a split personality (and *don't* ask me how I know what that feels like, heh) because you have part of your brain playing the tune in your head so your body knows what to do, and part of your brain listening to the result. Ideally, you find the time to adjust the sound to more closely match that rhapsodic, heavenly music the first part of your brain is imagining.
Another way of thinking about this same idea is to pay close attention to how your sound blends with your session or band mates. Focus on adjusting your volume, tempo, phrasing, note choices, tone, etc. to improve the overall sound, not just *your* sound.
On another tangent, I used to think I was cheating when I practiced in the bathroom or any room with lots of reverb. All that echo made my fiddle sound like a Strad, and I could imagine joining any top player in a recording studio. It was always disappointing then to step outside and hear the weak scratchy tone when all the richness dissapated into the upper atmosphere.
But I've heard that many top fiddlers like to practice in high-reverb rooms, or facing a hard wall at close proximity so the sound comes right back to them. I think it does help, first because it keeps you inspired instead of frustrated, and second because it lets you hear every little nuance of the sounds you're making (too much reverb can swamp it though, so shoose your room carefully). So now I use the reverb rooms to fine tune my tone and the crispness of bow and finger articulation, and it really does seem to help. I also like it better than taping myself because the feedback loop is more immediate--I hear my mistakes and successes as they're happening. This too is good practice for listening as you play.
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: How do I sound
I love Bathrooms!
Also I think using a mute (for me) gives me the most positive feedback. Does anyone here ever use a mute or know what I mean? The mute cuts out a lot of "fuzz" in fact for me it reproduces the sound of the recording on Frankie Goes to Town (ok I wont get big headed, but really when I use a mute I feel Im playing well not virtuoso standard but competent). The downside is that when the mute come off it takes 2 weeks for me to get used to the sound of fiddle "unleashed" again and in the first few days I feel disheartened at the "noise".
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
I gave my practise mute to a friend who was learning to play and needed to cut down on the vibrations cutting into his neighbors' apartments. One of these days I'll go get another one.
Work at getting the sound you like without a mute, is my advice!
For those who might not know, a practice mute looks like a great big rubber fork-like thing -- the prongs go over the bridge inbetween the strings. To get a "covered" sound for certain effects (the Berceuse from the Firebird Suite is probably a famous example), you use a smaller version of the practise mute, a concert mute. There are two kinds of concert mutes, the ones that hang on your strings between the bridge and the tailpiece and slide up the strings to the bridge when needed, and the ones that are the fork-like things made of wood. Concert mutes don't actually lower the volume, they just create that "covered" sound. Practise mutes, though, since they're bigger and chunkier and made of rubber, do lower the sound volume somewhat.
The mute damps the vibrations going to the body of the fiddle by damping the ability of the bridge to vibrate and so pass those vibrations to the face plate.
I wouldn't really use the mute too much, George -- you have to get used to playing your fiddle without it, you know!
Listening to yourself play correctly is a lot harder than people imagine -- recording yourself is good because you 1) actually hear what you're doing -- oftentimes when you're playing, you really hearing what's in your head or you're not necessarily skilled at standing apart from your playing yet, 2) you can listen instead of concentrating on both playing and listening and so you'll hear better, and 3) you can compare recordings of yourself to an admired player's work and figure out how to get closer to the style you want to play. Will's advice above is excellent, and takes work to do properly. You'll get less nervous if you keep recording yourself with every practise session -- after a while it becomes more natural.
Zina
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: How do I sound
George, I can empathize with you for wanting to use the mute to kill all the "extra" noise, but In my experience it was a bad habit to get into. The mute let me bang away with the bow, bearing down as hard as I wanted. This didn't help me develop a more sensitive connection to the bow and hair and strings.
What you really want to aim for is a cleaner, more controlled sound *without* the mute. One of the best ways I've found to do that is to practice playing as softly as you possible can with no mute. Pretend you're playing over the crib of a sleeping baby. See how quietly you can play and still produce a reasonable tone. At first, it might be difficult to play up tempo or energetic tunes this way, and it's okay to try this first with airs and slow paced tunes. But eventually you should work it up to cranking through fast-paced reels etc. at a whisper.
The key to this is lightening up your bow pressure, which is mostly a matter of relaxing your grip on the bow till it's little more than skin friction keeping the stick in your fingers, and relaxing pressure on the hairs, maybe even imagining the stick filled with helium so it wants to float off the strings.
All this pays off in increased control and feel when you go back to playing at "normal" volume.
Zina's right that listening to yourself play while you're actually playing can be difficult, especially in the beginning stages of learning an instrument. All the more reason, I'd say, to start practicing it as soon as possible. Nothing wrong with recording yourself, if you're so inclined, but sooner or later you've got to be able to listen carefully at the same time as keeping a tune going full tilt--it's probably the single most important skill that will take your playing to higher levels.
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: How do I sound
Once again Zina - Thanks (not what I wanted to hear - smile - but appreciated. so ill move on to the non-mute phase i guess unleess the weight of opinion comes in here
as for the greatnesss of bathrooms/toilets I was at a TMSA (Traditional Music of Scotland ) festival in Kinross in the 70s. some fiddlers were playing in the gents loo, Aly Bain Came in then went and got his fiddle. Then some more folk came in and liked what they heard. At this festival there were the 40 Shetland fiddlers plus thier pianist (female). So the boys carried in a piano and she came in and a great session was had in the toilet with gentleman doing their business and appreciating the music. Great Sound
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
Will I only saw your post after I posted. Good advice again and Ill give it a go!
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
I hate bathrooms!
But seriously . . . I would never do any practise in a reverby (is that a word?) room. My favourite place to practise is outside, so that the only sound I can hear is the sound my instrument is making. I find this is the best way for me to zoom in on all the little details - tone, intonation, tidy string crossing, shifts that don't sound like they go bleaghh! Especially tone. I once did a lot of practise in an incredibly dead room, with white boards on the walls to soak up the reverb. Then I went for a lesson in my teachers house, and he told me my tone had improved.
I guess what I'm saying is I'd prefer to "practise" somewhere dead, but I'll happily "play" anywhere, bathrooms included!
Jonathan
# Posted on June 28th 2002 by Jonathan
Re: How do I sound
Jonathon,
I have to agree with you to a certain extent. It's nice to always practice in a room that is kind to you but there is nothing like practicing outside or in a sound room. It might be hard to take all unrelieved harshness but your playing gets better because of.
When you are ready Donnchad, give a go in those ruthless rooms. When you sound good in one of those, you can sound good anywhere.
Mark
# Posted on June 29th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: How do I sound
Have I got this right, Donnchad - there were 40 Shetland fiddlers, a piano, and sundry other musicians all having a session in the gents ?
How big are the loos in Scotland ?? The sound must have been great though. I was at a session once held in a corridor leading into the gents. at a Fleadh in Birmingham many years ago. The leader of the session was none other than Kevin Burke.
Somebody assured me once that there really was a tune called "The Trip to the Jacks", Can anyone confirm this?
# Posted on June 29th 2002 by murfbox
Re: How do I sound
Have I got this right, Donnchad - there were 40 Shetland fiddlers, a piano, and sundry other musicians all having a session in the gents ?
How big are the loos in Scotland ?? The sound must have been great though. I was at a session once held in a corridor leading into the gents. at a Fleadh in Birmingham many years ago. The leader of the session was none other than Kevin Burke.
Somebody assured me once that there really was a tune called "The Trip to the Jacks", Can anyone confirm this?
# Posted on June 29th 2002 by murfbox
Re: How do I sound
Oops, sorry folks!
# Posted on June 29th 2002 by murfbox
Re: How do I sound
No the 40 fiddlers were at the festival not in the loo, tho there were many people including ladies (who didnt seem to mind that numerous men coming in to do what they had to. The loo was one of the hotel bar loos and was tiled with a hard floor. It was a few fiddlers inluding Aly Bain and a guy i think is still in Edinburgh called Fred
# Posted on June 29th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
Anyone other than me believe you can *feel* good tone? I don't know exactly how to put it into words, but a while back I reached a level where I have sporadic bursts of absolutely golden tone (usually when no-one else is around of course) and the whole instrument becomes a completely different thing. It lives. It vibrates from one end to the other and seems infinitely co-operative - almost eager to make me look good. (er... sound good). Thing is, I noticed the feeling before I noticed the tone. I just suddenly felt everything become completely effortless and a definite change in the level of vibration, *then* I happened to notice the fiddle was sounding absolutely gorgeous. I imagine if I strive to play with that feeling all the time, instead of accidentally, temporarily, and rarely, it won't matter what kind of room I'm in or how far away the audience is or whether or not I'm recording myself. I will know it is right by the way it feels.
One last thing, from a technical perspective, never ever ever ever compare a tape you made of yourself in your living room (or even your bathroom) to a professionally recorded CD (sorry, Zina, have to disagree). Millions of dollars worth of technology is employed to allow the "natural tone" to be reproduced. You'll end up confusing the shortcomings of your 40 dollar tape recorder with shortcomings in your playing. Martin Hayes' sound engineer makes him sound about as much better as a crappy home recording makes you sound worse. By all means, tape yourself, but only to hear a rough translation of your playing, not to evaluate yourself. It's eye-opening as far as pitch, speed and rhythm are concerned, but useless in terms of tone. (I think.)
Adieu. Next time you hear from me I'll be in Calgary.
Kerri
# Posted on June 29th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: How do I sound
Oh, no, no, no...I didn't mean that you were supposed to compare your TONE in a crappy little recording to recordings of your favorite influences...I meant you can compare your STYLE and technical stuff to those influences. (The *second* part of why it's advantageous to record yourself.) Shannon used to tell me that all the time, and then along comes George Keith and tells me the same thing -- and it really is helping, I notice a lot of things that I'm too busy playing to notice, on tapings.
Hope the move went smoothly -- I hate moving, and I REALLY hate moving in heat and muggy weather...
Zina
# Posted on June 29th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: How do I sound
|I have taken everyones helpful advice. I broke my fiddle into tiny pieces and flused down the toilet. Also have turned the loo into a dead room. Now back to my button accordion. (joking of course)
# Posted on June 29th 2002 by donnchad
Re: How do I sound
SHE'S GONE.....
I think I'm starting kerri withdrawl. all of you who live out west are lucky basta....
(kerri - don't you feel loved now
# Posted on July 3rd 2002 by searai
Re: How do I sound
Poor Searai! So, when we do the Montana/Rocky Mountain Session, you'll have to come down to Calgary and then on to Helena, yes...?
Zina
# Posted on July 3rd 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: How do I sound
Speaking of which...if people are serious about coming to Helena, Montana, here are the times that work best for me and my local cohorts in musical crime:
Anytime from July 8-14 (get out of the smoke now) or August 5-11, anytime after Labor Day, or wait until October when fiddler Cait Reid will be arriving to play and conduct workshops.
We have loads of camping space and probably some living room floors to sleep on, a regular Tuesday night session, good local beer, and homemade buttermilk waffles. What more do you need?
Sounds like Zina, Dirk, Sosaidh, and Kerri are possibilities. Anyone else? You can email directly by clicking on my screen name below.
# Posted on July 3rd 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: How do I sound
maybe I'll have to do that... flights aren't too bad are they? The furthest west I've been yet is Windsor/Detroit, so this broaden my horizons. And Will, the homemade buttermilk waffles are enough to make me walk out there.
And I'll try not to break into any verbal rants at the end of the night...
# Posted on July 3rd 2002 by searai
Re: How do I sound
Are you prone to verbal rants only at the end of the night, Searai?
I'll show up so long as I don't have a feis at that point, Will. And perhaps I'll come up when Cait Reid is out regardless, if you can find me a bed, of what we decide about meeting earlier (the August dates, maybe? How about for everyone else?) -- although October is a bit of a rocky time schedule wise.
Glad you liked the fireworks, Will -- or rather that your kids do.
Zina
# Posted on July 3rd 2002 by Zina Lee