I can't understand why so many people criticise CCÉ on this discussion website. Have people forgotton all the work, time and effort that voluntary people put in on a weekly basis. This work has been ongoing since 1951. It must be admitted that the Irish culture would not be nearly as strong today if it had not been for CCÉ. There would be no such things as festivals, big bands, concerts. There would only be a fraction of the people playing today as most people begin to learn music through Comhaltas or through people who were involved in Comhaltas. Of course every organisation has its faults and CCÉ is no different, however instead of giving out and complaining, people should offer suggestions on how Comhaltas can be improved. People criticise the competitions but nobody is forced to enter. Comhaltas is about much more than competition. People often forget that. I often feel that people are jealous of Comhaltas and all they have achieved. Another complaint I often hear is that CCÉ ruled by old people. This could be easily rectified if people weren't so lazy as they are always trying to bring the youth in. I'd like to hear people's views on what I just said.
Also could people please stop saying and writing "Ceoltas" when the word is "Comhaltas"!!
Is there any truth to what I've heard about CCÉ trying to claim the rights to Irish music so that no one can perform or record traditional music without paying them a royalty?
I'll reserve further comment until someone corroborates or dismisses this.
I don't want to start anything here.. but I know several people who have given kind suggestions in the past, and have been violently shut down. Since then those people haven't had anything nice to say about Comhaltas.
But other than that, I agree with you. Every organization has its own faults, and Comhaltas is no exception, but still there shouldn't be any attacking on it like I've seen in the past.
I can assure Grymater that there is no truth in that rumour. It's ridiculous! Those types of rumours only come from the type of people I'm talking about. Also people that don't get their own way start off rumours or exaggerated truths.
I played in the Comhaltas in Dublin - Monkstown on Tuesdays, and still go in sometimes. Its an open friendly environment, and you'll always hear a tune you didn't before. Very friendly atmosphere and I liked it.
I remember putting up flyers for Bouzouki lessons, and seeing them being promptly taken down though!
I've heard much the same in regard to folk music/dance-related organizations such as The Morris Ring, English Folk Dance and Song Society, and the Country Dance and Song Society. Once a particular group achieves a certain degree of longevity and scope in terms of the activities it sponsors or promotes, it is perceived -- rightly or wrongly -- as the "established order." The organization and its work becomes, if you will, a point of reference in and of itself, which will generate a variety of reactions.
Obviously, many people are quite satisfied and content with a CCE or an EFDSS, otherwise these organizations wouldn't be around.
But almost inevitably, other people may get the impression -- again, rightly or wrongly -- that said organization considers itself the ultimate authority or arbiter on all matters relating to the music or dance it seeks to uphold. And while this is often by no means an intended or conscious self-view of the organization as a whole, it's certainly not unheard of for an individual affiliated with a CCE or EFDSS to project that kind of attitude.
I'm not a member of the above-named organizations (was briefly in EFDSS), but my overall experience with them or with their representatives -- at festivals, concerts, other events -- has been quite positive on the whole. But sure, friends and acquaintances of mine have told me about some negative encounters they've had; depending on the person and the circumstances, the experience has had no impact on their regard for the organization -- or it's served to worsen their view.
OK. They do a good job, but have too many rules, and are indicative of Ireland in the 1950's, with Dev's "comely maidens dancing at the Crossroads".
Ireland is now a plural society, and CCE needs to move with the times. Too many rules and regulations, and why oh why do they all look miserable when they are playing?
Tell that to the girls from Newcastle and 'point CCE and you are likey to have yer tyres let down.
More likely to find them in the sess blasting out the tunes with us older hands - in no small part thanks to the CCE in those respctive towns. Fair play is what I say to the likes of Brendy Scullion and Nancy Rodgers and all the teachers who have brought the kids on.
Grymater don't know where you got that idea from it's absolute rubbish. I think Comhaltas does more good than harm. Ive have been activley involved in it for many years now, and feel it is a very worthwhile organisation. It is Comhaltas that has promoted the culture of Irish music, not individual groups. Afterall, you will find that many of the Irish Trad bands all started in Comhaltas.
Spoke to a guy once who shall remain nameless, who is a member of a CCE grouping. He told me the group pays in the region of £800 into the CCE from its grass roots in dues. Some of the members of that group have been thinking they could use that money more effectively in promoting and helping their own members. Example purchase instruments to hire to those who can not afford to purchase one. They feel that they do not see much in return for that £800.
The problems that most educated interested parties that I know have with CCE are loosely as follows:
1. The leadership. Larry Murphy has obtained himself life- long leadership of the organisation. This was not the way that CCE was set up, and it was certainly not the way that early enthusiasts like the great Breandan Breathnach wanted to see the thing going. Murphy has a long history of abusing his position there for political canvasing, He has dragged ITM by popular association with CCE into politically and morally murky territory by taking visible and audible stances on such contentious topics as Irish politics, abortion and music copyright. Regardless of what you think on these subjects, it is folly to drag a large and largely well meaning organisation into these areas... many probably just don't care what is said in their name of course. The late Sean Ried, that truly knowledgable,humble and humane visionary could not stomach what he seen in CCE as a growingly sectarian 'cultural' movement in the 60s. We have some very intereting letters on the subject from his collection in the NPU archive.
2. Presentation. The CCE 'talk'. Its tough, old school, nationalistic/ bordering on republican rhetoric. It is not very knowlegable when it comes to actual music but is full of glorious, nationalist aspirations for it. It is also deeply paralised in a distant past where the music MUST be saved as part of a nationalist agenda using victorian methods (ie. repetition, competition, empire building). Their identity from top level is built largely on a seige mentality that may seem superficially just when you look at how the traditional arts have been neglected by the irish governments since the Irish republic was formed... but their answer to the situation is to clam up consider themselves sole custodians of the traditions where they attemp to get control of any funding that may be going for ITM as was the case recently. Overkill in other words. At top level they are also insular, have delusions of their self worth and much of the editorial type comment they release in their rag is aggresive and paranoid. As a totaltarian organisation fishing for certain things they are also extremely manipulative, albeit in the clumsiest and most blatant ways with the worst sort of self promotion rhetoric and propeganda.
3.A few years ago Larry Murphy was appointed to create an official report on the state of ITM with a view to it being funded. Needless to say his report (which was really an infantile essay on how great CCE are) was shot down by many free thinking parties and individuals. The Irish Times letters page (among other places) became a battleground of words where people such as Nicholas Carolan of the Irish Traditional Music archive, Terry Moylan of NPU, Fintan Vallely, John Moulden and other music intelligentsia appealed for the report to be jumped on and slowly burned as the kindling that it was. Instead of realising that his 'report' was hopelessly flawed, innacurate, unfair and completely devoid of any understanding of the art forms 'on the ground' Larry instead went on the war path standing by this thing that a secondary school child would have written on a bad day claiming that he was victim of some dark, shady conspiracy against him. The truth was simply that the report was short sighted, selfish and not at all representitve of the needs of ITM. People were'nt happy with that.
4. Without going into the considerable details, there was recently a whole running battle over here when many (rightly) felt that CCE were going to recieve undue and unrepresentitive control of funding ITM due to some of their foot-in-the-door political wranglings. The attempt was to take funding of IT arts away from the general Arts Council of Ireland and ghettoise IT arts as some sort of stand alone freak. I was at the gates of the Dail to hand a petition expressing concern at this with among others, Paddy Moloney of the Cheiftains, Christy Moore, Paddy Glackin and representitives of ITMA, NPU and others. The objections from artists and intereted parties ensured that the stitch-up that we fully expected did not come about, but the situation is far from resolved in a funding sense and it will be a long push yet to secure a fair amount of support for the whole of the irish traditional arts.
5. And yes, CCE, or rather Larry Murphy or a like suit wearer signed a deal with IMRO. CCE and IMRO seemed to think that if the latter gave the former 375,000 euro then the latter could have exclusive rights to Irish music traditional arrangement royalties (trad. arr. as you see on CD sleeve notes). How they decided that CCE owned these rights to sell is still a mystery? They effectively sold Irish music! As usual they did not consult members or the rest of the ITM community on these trifling matters.
Money, power and cotrol. The problem is at the top and that is where the criticism is righly aimed by scholars and experts such as Breathnach, Vallely, Carolan and from mere minstrels such as myself.
To quote Breandan Breathnach himself " CCE is an organisation with a great future behind it." Not for the first time I wish that he was alive to keep them in check, or maybe he is better off at his well deserved rest.
Trouble also sometimes bubbles up from the bottom. I once got a call from a CCE member who asked whether I had "permission" to operate the weekly session I had organized. I laughed, thinking this was some sort of joke, but she was quite serious. And here I was thinking I lived in "the land of the free."
For us folks on the periphery, it is difficult to find the "why" of CCE. It is good to hear of their historical role, but what do we have to gain by starting a branch in our local community today? Better chances for our students in fleadh competitions? A stop on the CCE tour? And at what cost?
Rog, it is my opinion that if you sampled the membership here, you would find a low percentage of Comhaltas-educated musicians. Personally, I owe a great deal to local musicians, touring musicians, Willie Clancy Week, South Sligo and other workshops not directly supported by CCE.
This IMRO/CCE might just get me going, but I have not in the past had a reason to defend or attact Comhaltas.
To be fair, 'CEE selling Irish music to IMRO' is very subjective on my part. To put this into a less partisan context I'll quote from the scholarly work that I've provided a link to above (which I've just read again myself after many moons):
"...Following a series of private meetings, Shay Hennessy, then Chairman of the Irish Music Rights Organisation, and Labhrás Ó Murchú of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, signed a 'Letter of Agreement' on the 21st December 1998. In this "wide-ranging agreement" CCÉ and IMRO agreed to cooperate in the promotion of traditional Irish music, song, and dance, to the mutual benefit of members of both organisations.
For a nominal fee of £1000, Comhaltas contracted with the Irish Music Rights Organisation for a blanket licence to cover all official Comhaltas functions and centres. In return, IMRO agreed to make annual "financial subventions" to Comhaltas to a total of £250,000. As part of the agreement, IMRO also agreed to refer all requests for support for Traditional music to CCÉ. An additional sum of money, a "financial subvention" of £125,000, was also included, going to Brú Ború, a cultural centre affiliated to CCÉ and run by Labhrás Ó Murchú's wife.
The transformation of the official position of Comhaltas from complete opposition to complete alliance was nothing short of spectacular. Ultimately, all resistance to IMRO's activities among traditional musicians and others was rendered ineffective by the Comhaltas' agreement which legitimated IMRO's claims to jurisdiction in the "traditional" domain....."
Thing is that CCE had previously passed a unanimous motion of non-cooperation with IMRO. They did not consider IMRO's claim to trad. arr. performance royalties legitamate. To my mind that is a sell out, and as you can see from the above quote it destroyed any opposition from the notoriously raggle taggle ITM 'community". Please feel free to make up your own mind. Thankfully they can't quite sell our rights to do that... yet!
Cheers Harry, it just sounds like normal Rep of Ireland politics to me, brown envelopes all round.
My main objection was the Nationalistic approach, the sacredness of IRISH music, as if by mere dint of it being Irish made it good. I have spent years telling "Nationalists" that although I played hurling, Irish music and could speak the language, I didn't do it because it was Irish, I was just influenced that way when I was young, and all of those things were good. For example Hurling must be the best field sport going, but because of the skill and excitement, not because it is Irish.
Mr Murphy sounds just like Lowry, Burke, Haughy, Flynn and all the rest.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think that nationalism ( or patriotism as it is being sold elsewhere) is bad. Like anything it can be positive or a stick to beat somebody with...much like a hurl!? God knows most of us are prone to some bout of nationalism.
My problem is in using, abusing, whipped-up nationalist sentiment and mixing and associating it with a culture such as ITM that has a very politically and religiously mixed past and present.
Besides, many of the strands of influence that make up ITM can be traced to well outside the borders of this nation. The magic is in the mix, and in the mixers wherever they roam and dwell.
I fully agree. I myself would be a republican, not because I believe Ireland to be superior to everyone else, I am just anti-colonial. We all love to see an Irish Olympic winner, even if it is a horse on drugs, Irish golfers doing well and all the rest. That's a feeling of Brotherhood, or patriotism, but "Superior" Nationalism is a no-nn.
I have no dispute whatever with all the stuff Harry has said above. Shower of ballixes all BUT what the local branches do on the ground can [sometimes] be truly wonderful.
Bliss mentioned the glum faces when they are playing - well I can tell you that the looks of sheer bliss [sorry!] on the faces of many of the young kids around our part of the worls has to be seen to be believed. And, yes, sometimes some of the local 'suits' are more interested in the petty politics of CCE but that doesn't take away from the product.
Some fine young musicians should not be tarred with this political brush. Lets just celebrate the fact that many kids do come out of the Comhaltas mill well and truly grounded in the tunes.
Up unitl the last few years the sessioneers in County Down were getting older and tireder and I think it's fecking marvellous to see a crown of teenagers broadening their musical horizons and joing us oul hands to liven up the session. SOME credit has to go to the hard working ordinary mums and dads and those just into committeeing for this.
The head may be sick but the body is full of vitality.
What a funny old world we live in.
Who'ld a'thought a few old jigs on a fiddle could make so much money !
I'm sure, if I was offered 125K in smackers a year, I could loose a few scruples.
It's strange to think that Tammany Hall lives on.
Now, back to learning a couple more tunes on the bouzouki, before Thursday night.
My experience with Comhaltas was very positive for the most part. When I first started to play, there was a chapter in the city where I lived. We had a weekly session. When I was in Sligo in the late 70's, the Sligo Comhaltas chapter was very active and I met several wonderful musicians at their sessions. At some point, though, the rules just got to be too much (charters, dues, officers, blah, blah, blah) and it seemed as though we were spending more time planning events than we were playing the music. There was a rift among the Comhaltas members and this led to some unpleasant musical politics (you know the stuff -- I can't go to that pub because so-and-so has their session there, etc...). I appreciate what Comhaltas offered when I was starting to play, and it was truly a way for me to learn about Irish music and culture. I'm sure I wouldn't have learned so much as quickly without Comhaltas. I guess I outgrew Comhaltas, though. At some point, it didn't offer more of what I wanted and I wasn't interested in playing the politics.
In the middle seventies, a few of us decided to form a branch in Derry with 3 objectives in mind. firstly to have a legitimate base to run a school for learners, secondly to use the name of Comhaltas to fight on the Traditional Arts Sub Committee of The Northern Arts Council for money to organise tours, workshops etc. and thirdly to rejuvenate the Ulster Fleadh which at that time was in a sorry state. All of these things came about after 2 or 3 years. People like the late Martin McCabe (Ulster President, Clones) were owed an immense debt of gratitude. Ciaran Carson for the NAC likewise.
So at the grassroots level it was extremely useful, full of people with ideas, forward looking. Like everything else, the problem comes from the Hierarchy, Politics, Nepotism, the Old School Tie, Headquarters Superiority. All they seemed to be interested in was how much money was flowing into their coffers, from the branch, the county and the province. Is it any wonder that ordinary musicians, singers, dancers and lilters etc. don't have a high regard for the Elite far away in Dublin.
Rules!...Rules!.....and more rules!!! It is the same everywhere, I call it conservationism around the word “traditional” …but I shouldn’t be worried about it because in 2200 people will have “traditional electric guitar” so….. People are not obligated to step in them, and CCÉ is not a rock in the shoe or an obstacle to transpose!!!
I see them as a “brake” to prevent wrong steps in the traditional music scene and to keep it coherent..a flashback to old things.
Regarding Harry Bradley's point number 5 above as it backs up my allegation further above:
Who says pub-talk (my source) is rubbish!?!? Lest we forget, many an evil plot has been developed and discussed at the local.
Here is where I should launch into a diatribe about how purists always, and incorrectly, want to isolate something as it exists at one moment and preserve it despite it's previous long, and _evolving_ history, but, frankly, I've given up fighting such battles; the US cranks out something like 5 lawyers per nanosecond...we're all doomed!
Have you heard that Microsoft wants to claim rights to the term and action known as the "double-click"? Yes, you see, they don't already have enough money, and one of the zillion members of their legal team is terribly bored just playing golf four days a week.
God is now suing for the rights to our very likenesses since he patented the process by which we are created, and since he spends all that time and effort promoting us and keeping us safe from evolution, he deserves tribute...payable to the church of your choice.
As a member of the smaller Glasgow branch of CCE, I'll just step into the ring to come to the defence of CCE, my experience of CCE which has been overwhelmingly positive.
I didn't grow up with Comhaltas or with trad music, didn't in fact get interested in trad music until in my 20s, and joined CCE in aged 30 when I decided to make time to play with other folks rather than on my own in the house. CCE isn't the only place where I play, but it is the only regular event where I can play along with an age range of 6-70 years old.
In my experience, I have had great encouragement from, not just the excellent musicians that attend CCE, but those of all standards. I've seen plenty of kids come along and become absorbed in the music (this last year has been particularly good in this respect). The CCE branch was a great place to meet people with a shared interest in trad music, many of whom have become good friends.
I'm not going to answer the criticisms of CCE political machinations in Dublin, as frankly I don't know anything about these goings on. I wouldn't be surprised if some or even all of these allegations were true. However, it doesn't alter my appreciation for the work put in by those who turn up every week to teach the kids, and play music together, which is what CCE is about for me. I suspect if you live in Ireland, the politics becomes more important. For me in Glasgow, I'm interested mainly in what my local branch is doing.
I do have major reservations about the competitions etc., and prefer the emphasis be placed on the branch's Monday night classes and sessions : far more important than some 10 minute "ceili band" competition slot at the end of the year. My personal choice would be to not use any of the regular meeting time to practice for these events which I see as a distraction from enjoying the music. I'm not against the branch entering these competitions, but I don't like the practice time eating heavily into the regular meeting. Other members of the branch see these events as being of greater importance, there is a spectrum of opinion, of which it is fair to say I lie somewhat to one end. I think we do get the balance much "righter" than perhaps some other branches do in this regard (all down to opinion, though isn't it), and certainly better than the almost entirely competition centred Irish Dance classes, or exam based classical music approaches (It always embarrasses me to hear fully grown men and women describe themselves as a "Grade X" on the piano).
To sum up, there may well be valid criticisms to be made of CCE's political manoeuvrings, but the work which grass roots members of CCE do in promoting the music cannot be dismissed.
Thanks Chris. I have a friend that has nothing but good things to say about the branch where he grew up. He keeps threatening to start a branch here. Again, I am just wondering what value it has.
We have started a school of our own, and intend on making it more of a community-based effort. In fact, we called it a "center" instead of a school, because we want it to be a gathering place, a resource for the local community. We want to sponsor sessions like Chris mentions. We envision having concerts from time to time, perhaps sponsoring visiting musicians. We have some great local and regional musicians that we can tap for help, and connections to Ireland.
My personal opinion would be, if you have the set up you describe then you don't particularly need to "become" a branch of CCE, as you have all the best aspects of my experience in place as things stand. OTOH, if the thought of all those competitions etc. did particularly appeal to you...
Back to that question again: how important are the competitions? And how important is it to give your students a "leg up" by being a part of the membership? Will our students have a difficult time competing fairly against other students that have CCE branch sponsorship?
Our feeling is to deemphasize the competition, making it optional to our students. I think we would rather concentrate on sessions, ceilis and a few performances. We did have one of our students attend the fleadh this year, and she enjoyed it as a learning experience, and as a way to meet people her age that play the music.
My personal experiences of the Comhaltas phenomena derive mainly from my observation of the aforementioned 'competitions' (although I use that term in the loosest possible sense). From what I've seen at some of the major fladhs, it appears that many competitors are discriminated against on the grounds that they are not members of the CCE, and thus do not fulfill the most basic of criteria for placement. On several occasions, I have been known to fall from my chair in disbelief, an action that has fast become reflex to the blatant prejudices of certain judges.
However, I do not dispute that there are competitions void of such bias; merely that I am yet to witness such seemingly-elusive events.
I experienced a blatant prejudice judge summing up after a duet contest very recently. There had been 7 sets of duets in that competition and the judge went on to explain that he felt there had been 6 good performances in the duets today. He then went on to describe how he arrived at his decision of the 3 places. Talking on, he then gave a brief discussion on the 6 duets that he liked and talked about their instrument and their tuning etc. This then only left one duet out of the discussion and leaving no doubt who was last (more like excluded from the competition) Needless to say these kind were not members of either the 2 branches who’s names had been bantered about throughout the competition. I’ll even go on to say that one of the gentlemen on the table made the effort to applaud all contestants apart from guess who he didn’t bother applauding.
Would you say this is the right way to do things?
Was there a point being made here?
Is the CCE so insecure, they have to resort to this sort of thing?
How do you thing those 2 kids felt?
Is this promoting culture?
Why open the competition to none CCE?
I don't know about insecure, but they are certainly what I would describe as 'purist'. The poor representatives of Comhaltas whom I have had the uncertain pleasure of dealing with seem, to me, to be hell-bent on repressing the very diversity and individuality that is of paramount importance to the continuing evolution of ITM.
From what I've read of that story, the judge in question was behaving most unprofessionally. However there remains two sides to every story, just as constructive criticism is of paramount importance to the improvement of one's playing. My advice to that particular duo would be to steer clear of these events, and to visit some sessions with bloody good local musicians; hopefully, here they will recieve a real insight into the music, the people, and the craic.
Roger, given this long list of creditable greivances, do you think that the CCE can address them and change? It seems like more has to be done than just "offering suggestions" to CCE. Harry's point #3 indicates that the current power structure is resistant to change or correction.
To quote another source, "many of the branches are healthy, but the trunk of the tree is rotting". Chris gives evidence that the organization has potential, witnessed by the success of certain branches.
And Harry B, do you think that a person with Breathnach's spirit could take on the CCE and revitalize it for the next generations? Is it a worthy cause?
No hard feelings to Roger. I just wanted to open up the discussion a bit, not offend anybody (apart from the commiters of the offences outlined above).
I don't think that being involved in CCE and not being aware of these issues is a punishable offence. People should be able to just enjoy culture and not have to worry that these things are being done in their name. Unfortunately, as it stands the situation of general, blissful ignorance is to the advantage of certain highly placed 'sharks' and some of us have to keep an eye on them and cry foul the odd time.
Jode, I believe that CCE is a golden age waiting to happen for ITM. If somebody could properly manage the incredible resources, human and otherwise, available to CCE then I'd find it hard to imagine how much good could be done. The main change needed (to continue the tree analogy) is a good pruning at the top and some care taken of the roots... and the soil, the field and sorrounding grass.
They could do a lot to develope artistic ethics as well. Nobody has ever convinced me that they, as an organisation, actually understand the traditional arts or the transmission of style and development of the sort of expressive, personal styles that define ITM. I always get the impression that they don't really take ITM seriously as a set of art forms. Art is expressive, at its best it resonates uniquely from the very core of individuals: read anything like that in Treoir magazine? No, because CCE claims to be pro-art without being pro-artist as unique individual. They( he) is nervous of powerful individuals and would prefer a country of compliant 'citizens' to do his bidding, play his idea of relativly safe music and be ruled from on high by himself (read the latest load of editorial ranting on the subject of funding and accompaning citizen vs 'selfish individualism' tripe in their rag).
That's it Harry, we're in. How can we miss a ground floor opportunity on the next golden age! (sorry)
OK, here's the highjack then, since Roger hasn't reappeared.
Resculpting the original question to the detractors of CCE: is it time to stop the complaining and do something about Comhaltas from the inside? Back to the analogy, cannot we start at the grassroots and affect change?
Though I think someone drunk with power is too p*ssed to listen to anyone else (that's their problem in the first place), a deafening response from the members themselves is about the only way to do it. You must encourage all of the sorts of people who believe CCE is great top to bottom that it is not great at the top, though their branch may be the mark of integrity.
By the way, let's not gloss over what I believe is the important point here: The confirmed fact that CCE (see #5 in Bradley's first post), including some of it's branches (see Will Harmon's post above), believe that they OWN Irish Traditional Music. I'm sure CCE has done worlds of good for ITM, I have absolutely no experience with them, but the session itself is the most important element of the music; it is most responsible for keeping the music alive. This is where I have indirect experience with CCE. CCE declaring that someone needs PERMISSION from them to hold a session? And the fact that they are using other organizations to harass pub owners into buying permits to hold sessions because the pubs are "making money" off of "copyrighted" music? Perhaps these threats would never hold up in any court...they're not meant for that purpose. When someone has a team of lawyers ready to go, and you have to hold a bake sale to build a legal-defense fund, well, chances are you'll take the path of least resistance.
So the competitions might be skewed--big deal...don't enter them. But if people and pubs become intimidated and stop having sessions, then that affects me, you, and the music. It constitutes destruction of culture not preservation.
Death threats will be joyfully printed out and used to fortify the outer walls of my home.
All the way out in the San Francisco Bay Area of California musicians are talking about the effect of IMRO and Comhaltas decisions on the future of Irish trad music/copyright law, etc.
As a newspaper reporter and independent filmmaker, I'm interested to speak with individual musicians/pub owners/publicists, etc. for whom these decisions have been either a detriment or a benefit.
I've spoken with musicians that said they were better off leaving Ireland to ply their trade than dealing with IMRO. I've spoken with an equal number who know nothing of the controversy - and by that token do not believe it to be worth too much consideration. I'd certainly also be interested to hear from those who believe IMRO and Comhaltas' partnership is a strong foundation for the preservation of Irish music.
Mr. McCann's work is surely worthy of note, though I'd be interested to get more personal perspectives on what is happening...and perspectives that differ from those expressed in the news media thus far.
My email is below, so please feel free to contact me directly with your stories, thoughts on contacts, etc. Thanks much!
"Trouble also sometimes bubbles up from the bottom. I once got a call from a CCE member who asked whether I had "permission" to operate the weekly session I had organized. I laughed, thinking this was some sort of joke, but she was quite serious. And here I was thinking I lived in "the land of the free" - same thing happened to me in clonmel when we put on a street session in febuary 2009 its ridiculous but in fairness to comhaltas as a whole music in clonmel and Ireland wouldn't be anything as popular as it is now if twasnt for them
You should have informed her of your intent to forthwith check with the official Department of Arsery whether or not she was qualified to act on their behalf.
Since arriving in Ireland from England in 2005, with hopes of being welcomed as a fiddle player, I have been ostracised, excluded, and demonised by some Comhaltas members. Some even refuse to speak to me. The cult-like, impenetrable goldfish bowl in which they exist is sad. Coming from a classical background, I can read music very well - I can not get my head around why this is regarded as a crime.
Unfortunately for Comhaltas though, I am not going to stop playing - on the contrary, in fact. It seems I am going to (unintentionally) upset a lot of people by demonstrating that a classical training can knock spots off a lot of their 'experts'.
I have had 2 fiddle teachers who emphasized classical-based technique. However they are both performers, who play bona fide "fiddle" music.
I did grade 8 piano and grade 2 theory. I felt that learning theory greatly helped me learn to figure out scales on the fiddle by myself.
My current fiddle teacher's comments about classical style learning, was that by placing your hand in a classical way on the fiddle, you can play notes more easily and you are less likely to injure yourself. She said that the fiddlers who got the furthest professionally also have a classical background.
I took lessons briefly from a "pure" classical violinist. I could tell pretty quickly that he wasn't able to teach me things like turns and other things that made it sound more fiddley so I quit.
Hoopoe, that is too bad that you have been ostracized. Maybe people were feeling threatened by what you were bringing to the table instead of welcoming it.
I kind of question the choice of tunes on the Comhaltas list of repertoire tunes. I had never heard of most of them! I suppose that is the point, to preserve the music.
However when I began playing, I purposely went looking for tunes to learn that were not obscure, tunes that I found on many websites, the whole point being to not be playing a tune no one has heard of. I think I inadvertently found tunes that are popular with old-time fiddlers... but they have Irish origins.
So to get any fun out of the Comhaltas sessions, I am going to have to learn 20 tunes, mostly well enough to play in front of people. The one I went to was touted as a beginner's session, I enjoyed myself, but I have a ton of homework now!!
I get a bit annoyed when people say that learning from sheet music makes you sound "like a Yank". I think that if you have a half-decent ear, and you do listen to trad music, you can make the sheet music sound halfway genuine.
I think they are all a shower of self-obsessed fanatics with their heads up there a***. Some kind of narcissistic ignorance permeates their thinking. This very night I was accused of being a classical player and was not allowed to play with the group in question - I have tried hard and succeeded in playing in the Sligo style but the prejudice persists. It's made me very depressed, and suicidal. Jim
Hi Jim take it easy
the music is about people as i said before. It comes from the kitchens a few people gathering to have fun,
Its strange they accuse you of being a classical player, because i see cce turning most of the players into classical performers by their competitive nature. So why bother putting your hand out
As for the sligo style , listen to the old players and see how many you can find these days , not only their music but their humanity..
Put your passion in the music, don't turn it on yourself. Music is great medicine, excellent therapy, though it is nice to play with others. If you're not making it with the local Comhaltas lot, find others to share the music with and a bit of chat and humour. There must be other sessions you could check out. Go just for a drink and observed, then later, if it seems right for you, take your instrument, and still mostly listen. Let them ask you to play something. Here's hoping you can work things out, with yourself as well as others.
I hope this is exaggeration. Really, a shower of eejits such as you describe is not worth this sort of emotional investment. Let them go, and find people that you like and play music with them.
hoopoe, I'm Welsh/Cornish/English/bit of Spanish somewhere in there. I have never come across any sort of prejudice against me or anyone else in relation to traditional music in Ireland. If you think you've "succeeded" in a particular style and if you think your "classical training can knock spots off a lot of their 'experts' " then I would strongly urge you to look at your own prejudices and attitudes first and stop externalising your own problems.
OK Ethical Blend. All I was saying was that I have worked hard to adjust my playing style in a humble effort to be accepted and fit in to the way things are done around here, but it didn't happen. CCE encourages competitiveness. I admit it was a bit harsh to use the terminology "knock spots off their experts", but it is a fact that learning how to hold and play the instrument initially helps a great deal. Can I ask you what problems you think I'm externalising?
Comhaltas Critics
Comhaltas Critics
I can't understand why so many people criticise CCÉ on this discussion website. Have people forgotton all the work, time and effort that voluntary people put in on a weekly basis. This work has been ongoing since 1951. It must be admitted that the Irish culture would not be nearly as strong today if it had not been for CCÉ. There would be no such things as festivals, big bands, concerts. There would only be a fraction of the people playing today as most people begin to learn music through Comhaltas or through people who were involved in Comhaltas. Of course every organisation has its faults and CCÉ is no different, however instead of giving out and complaining, people should offer suggestions on how Comhaltas can be improved. People criticise the competitions but nobody is forced to enter. Comhaltas is about much more than competition. People often forget that. I often feel that people are jealous of Comhaltas and all they have achieved. Another complaint I often hear is that CCÉ ruled by old people. This could be easily rectified if people weren't so lazy as they are always trying to bring the youth in. I'd like to hear people's views on what I just said.
Also could people please stop saying and writing "Ceoltas" when the word is "Comhaltas"!!
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Roger O' Miller
Re: Comhaltas Critics
The last line says it all.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Since you brought them up...
Is there any truth to what I've heard about CCÉ trying to claim the rights to Irish music so that no one can perform or record traditional music without paying them a royalty?
I'll reserve further comment until someone corroborates or dismisses this.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by grymater
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Forgive my ignorence - what is wrong with Comhaltas? Is there a list?
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Cuso
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I don't want to start anything here.. but I know several people who have given kind suggestions in the past, and have been violently shut down. Since then those people haven't had anything nice to say about Comhaltas.
But other than that, I agree with you. Every organization has its own faults, and Comhaltas is no exception, but still there shouldn't be any attacking on it like I've seen in the past.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by picking up that fiddle
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I can assure Grymater that there is no truth in that rumour. It's ridiculous! Those types of rumours only come from the type of people I'm talking about. Also people that don't get their own way start off rumours or exaggerated truths.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Roger O' Miller
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I played in the Comhaltas in Dublin - Monkstown on Tuesdays, and still go in sometimes. Its an open friendly environment, and you'll always hear a tune you didn't before. Very friendly atmosphere and I liked it.
I remember putting up flyers for Bouzouki lessons, and seeing them being promptly taken down though!
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I've heard much the same in regard to folk music/dance-related organizations such as The Morris Ring, English Folk Dance and Song Society, and the Country Dance and Song Society. Once a particular group achieves a certain degree of longevity and scope in terms of the activities it sponsors or promotes, it is perceived -- rightly or wrongly -- as the "established order." The organization and its work becomes, if you will, a point of reference in and of itself, which will generate a variety of reactions.
Obviously, many people are quite satisfied and content with a CCE or an EFDSS, otherwise these organizations wouldn't be around.
But almost inevitably, other people may get the impression -- again, rightly or wrongly -- that said organization considers itself the ultimate authority or arbiter on all matters relating to the music or dance it seeks to uphold. And while this is often by no means an intended or conscious self-view of the organization as a whole, it's certainly not unheard of for an individual affiliated with a CCE or EFDSS to project that kind of attitude.
I'm not a member of the above-named organizations (was briefly in EFDSS), but my overall experience with them or with their representatives -- at festivals, concerts, other events -- has been quite positive on the whole. But sure, friends and acquaintances of mine have told me about some negative encounters they've had; depending on the person and the circumstances, the experience has had no impact on their regard for the organization -- or it's served to worsen their view.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by sts
Re: Comhaltas Critics
OK. They do a good job, but have too many rules, and are indicative of Ireland in the 1950's, with Dev's "comely maidens dancing at the Crossroads".
Ireland is now a plural society, and CCE needs to move with the times. Too many rules and regulations, and why oh why do they all look miserable when they are playing?
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I also sometimes go to Monkstown on Tuesday and it is very welcoming.
I have heard that guitars were "banned" at one stage and I know that there was a discussion recently about someone raising that issue again.
But what are the rules and regulations that irk people?
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Cuso
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Where's Harry Bradley when we need him?
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Comely maidens dancing at the crossroads eh?
Tell that to the girls from Newcastle and 'point CCE and you are likey to have yer tyres let down.
More likely to find them in the sess blasting out the tunes with us older hands - in no small part thanks to the CCE in those respctive towns. Fair play is what I say to the likes of Brendy Scullion and Nancy Rodgers and all the teachers who have brought the kids on.
There's more + than - with CCE, warts and all
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by breandan
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Grymater don't know where you got that idea from it's absolute rubbish. I think Comhaltas does more good than harm. Ive have been activley involved in it for many years now, and feel it is a very worthwhile organisation. It is Comhaltas that has promoted the culture of Irish music, not individual groups. Afterall, you will find that many of the Irish Trad bands all started in Comhaltas.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Trad Girl
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Do Comhaltas not get royalties due on trad music from IMRO?
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by no39
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Spoke to a guy once who shall remain nameless, who is a member of a CCE grouping. He told me the group pays in the region of £800 into the CCE from its grass roots in dues. Some of the members of that group have been thinking they could use that money more effectively in promoting and helping their own members. Example purchase instruments to hire to those who can not afford to purchase one. They feel that they do not see much in return for that £800.
Also another thing, why did the NPU have to form?
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Seanie
Re: Comhaltas Critics
The problems that most educated interested parties that I know have with CCE are loosely as follows:
1. The leadership. Larry Murphy has obtained himself life- long leadership of the organisation. This was not the way that CCE was set up, and it was certainly not the way that early enthusiasts like the great Breandan Breathnach wanted to see the thing going. Murphy has a long history of abusing his position there for political canvasing, He has dragged ITM by popular association with CCE into politically and morally murky territory by taking visible and audible stances on such contentious topics as Irish politics, abortion and music copyright. Regardless of what you think on these subjects, it is folly to drag a large and largely well meaning organisation into these areas... many probably just don't care what is said in their name of course. The late Sean Ried, that truly knowledgable,humble and humane visionary could not stomach what he seen in CCE as a growingly sectarian 'cultural' movement in the 60s. We have some very intereting letters on the subject from his collection in the NPU archive.
2. Presentation. The CCE 'talk'. Its tough, old school, nationalistic/ bordering on republican rhetoric. It is not very knowlegable when it comes to actual music but is full of glorious, nationalist aspirations for it. It is also deeply paralised in a distant past where the music MUST be saved as part of a nationalist agenda using victorian methods (ie. repetition, competition, empire building). Their identity from top level is built largely on a seige mentality that may seem superficially just when you look at how the traditional arts have been neglected by the irish governments since the Irish republic was formed... but their answer to the situation is to clam up consider themselves sole custodians of the traditions where they attemp to get control of any funding that may be going for ITM as was the case recently. Overkill in other words. At top level they are also insular, have delusions of their self worth and much of the editorial type comment they release in their rag is aggresive and paranoid. As a totaltarian organisation fishing for certain things they are also extremely manipulative, albeit in the clumsiest and most blatant ways with the worst sort of self promotion rhetoric and propeganda.
3.A few years ago Larry Murphy was appointed to create an official report on the state of ITM with a view to it being funded. Needless to say his report (which was really an infantile essay on how great CCE are) was shot down by many free thinking parties and individuals. The Irish Times letters page (among other places) became a battleground of words where people such as Nicholas Carolan of the Irish Traditional Music archive, Terry Moylan of NPU, Fintan Vallely, John Moulden and other music intelligentsia appealed for the report to be jumped on and slowly burned as the kindling that it was. Instead of realising that his 'report' was hopelessly flawed, innacurate, unfair and completely devoid of any understanding of the art forms 'on the ground' Larry instead went on the war path standing by this thing that a secondary school child would have written on a bad day claiming that he was victim of some dark, shady conspiracy against him. The truth was simply that the report was short sighted, selfish and not at all representitve of the needs of ITM. People were'nt happy with that.
4. Without going into the considerable details, there was recently a whole running battle over here when many (rightly) felt that CCE were going to recieve undue and unrepresentitive control of funding ITM due to some of their foot-in-the-door political wranglings. The attempt was to take funding of IT arts away from the general Arts Council of Ireland and ghettoise IT arts as some sort of stand alone freak. I was at the gates of the Dail to hand a petition expressing concern at this with among others, Paddy Moloney of the Cheiftains, Christy Moore, Paddy Glackin and representitives of ITMA, NPU and others. The objections from artists and intereted parties ensured that the stitch-up that we fully expected did not come about, but the situation is far from resolved in a funding sense and it will be a long push yet to secure a fair amount of support for the whole of the irish traditional arts.
5. And yes, CCE, or rather Larry Murphy or a like suit wearer signed a deal with IMRO. CCE and IMRO seemed to think that if the latter gave the former 375,000 euro then the latter could have exclusive rights to Irish music traditional arrangement royalties (trad. arr. as you see on CD sleeve notes). How they decided that CCE owned these rights to sell is still a mystery? They effectively sold Irish music! As usual they did not consult members or the rest of the ITM community on these trifling matters.
Money, power and cotrol. The problem is at the top and that is where the criticism is righly aimed by scholars and experts such as Breathnach, Vallely, Carolan and from mere minstrels such as myself.
To quote Breandan Breathnach himself " CCE is an organisation with a great future behind it." Not for the first time I wish that he was alive to keep them in check, or maybe he is better off at his well deserved rest.
Regards,
Harry Bradley.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Harry B
Re: Comhaltas Critics
So Harry, tell us what you *really* think....
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Trouble also sometimes bubbles up from the bottom. I once got a call from a CCE member who asked whether I had "permission" to operate the weekly session I had organized. I laughed, thinking this was some sort of joke, but she was quite serious. And here I was thinking I lived in "the land of the free."
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Long article on IMRO/CCE:
http://www.beyondthecommons.com/iff2003.html
Sicier short article by F Vallely on subject:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~fidil/Tribwebarticles00/000102.html
Regards,
HB.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Harry B
Re: Comhaltas Critics
For us folks on the periphery, it is difficult to find the "why" of CCE. It is good to hear of their historical role, but what do we have to gain by starting a branch in our local community today? Better chances for our students in fleadh competitions? A stop on the CCE tour? And at what cost?
Rog, it is my opinion that if you sampled the membership here, you would find a low percentage of Comhaltas-educated musicians. Personally, I owe a great deal to local musicians, touring musicians, Willie Clancy Week, South Sligo and other workshops not directly supported by CCE.
This IMRO/CCE might just get me going, but I have not in the past had a reason to defend or attact Comhaltas.
p.s. thanks for the info Harry.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Jode
Re: Comhaltas Critics
To be fair, 'CEE selling Irish music to IMRO' is very subjective on my part. To put this into a less partisan context I'll quote from the scholarly work that I've provided a link to above (which I've just read again myself after many moons):
"...Following a series of private meetings, Shay Hennessy, then Chairman of the Irish Music Rights Organisation, and Labhrás Ó Murchú of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, signed a 'Letter of Agreement' on the 21st December 1998. In this "wide-ranging agreement" CCÉ and IMRO agreed to cooperate in the promotion of traditional Irish music, song, and dance, to the mutual benefit of members of both organisations.
For a nominal fee of £1000, Comhaltas contracted with the Irish Music Rights Organisation for a blanket licence to cover all official Comhaltas functions and centres. In return, IMRO agreed to make annual "financial subventions" to Comhaltas to a total of £250,000. As part of the agreement, IMRO also agreed to refer all requests for support for Traditional music to CCÉ. An additional sum of money, a "financial subvention" of £125,000, was also included, going to Brú Ború, a cultural centre affiliated to CCÉ and run by Labhrás Ó Murchú's wife.
The transformation of the official position of Comhaltas from complete opposition to complete alliance was nothing short of spectacular. Ultimately, all resistance to IMRO's activities among traditional musicians and others was rendered ineffective by the Comhaltas' agreement which legitimated IMRO's claims to jurisdiction in the "traditional" domain....."
Thing is that CCE had previously passed a unanimous motion of non-cooperation with IMRO. They did not consider IMRO's claim to trad. arr. performance royalties legitamate. To my mind that is a sell out, and as you can see from the above quote it destroyed any opposition from the notoriously raggle taggle ITM 'community". Please feel free to make up your own mind. Thankfully they can't quite sell our rights to do that... yet!
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Harry B
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Cheers Harry, it just sounds like normal Rep of Ireland politics to me, brown envelopes all round.
My main objection was the Nationalistic approach, the sacredness of IRISH music, as if by mere dint of it being Irish made it good. I have spent years telling "Nationalists" that although I played hurling, Irish music and could speak the language, I didn't do it because it was Irish, I was just influenced that way when I was young, and all of those things were good. For example Hurling must be the best field sport going, but because of the skill and excitement, not because it is Irish.
Mr Murphy sounds just like Lowry, Burke, Haughy, Flynn and all the rest.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Mr. Bliss,
Don't get me wrong. I don't think that nationalism ( or patriotism as it is being sold elsewhere) is bad. Like anything it can be positive or a stick to beat somebody with...much like a hurl!? God knows most of us are prone to some bout of nationalism.
My problem is in using, abusing, whipped-up nationalist sentiment and mixing and associating it with a culture such as ITM that has a very politically and religiously mixed past and present.
Besides, many of the strands of influence that make up ITM can be traced to well outside the borders of this nation. The magic is in the mix, and in the mixers wherever they roam and dwell.
Regards,
HB.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Harry B
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I fully agree. I myself would be a republican, not because I believe Ireland to be superior to everyone else, I am just anti-colonial. We all love to see an Irish Olympic winner, even if it is a horse on drugs, Irish golfers doing well and all the rest. That's a feeling of Brotherhood, or patriotism, but "Superior" Nationalism is a no-nn.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Well done, Harry.
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Will Harmon
Ditto that
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I have no dispute whatever with all the stuff Harry has said above. Shower of ballixes all BUT what the local branches do on the ground can [sometimes] be truly wonderful.
Bliss mentioned the glum faces when they are playing - well I can tell you that the looks of sheer bliss [sorry!] on the faces of many of the young kids around our part of the worls has to be seen to be believed. And, yes, sometimes some of the local 'suits' are more interested in the petty politics of CCE but that doesn't take away from the product.
Some fine young musicians should not be tarred with this political brush. Lets just celebrate the fact that many kids do come out of the Comhaltas mill well and truly grounded in the tunes.
Up unitl the last few years the sessioneers in County Down were getting older and tireder and I think it's fecking marvellous to see a crown of teenagers broadening their musical horizons and joing us oul hands to liven up the session. SOME credit has to go to the hard working ordinary mums and dads and those just into committeeing for this.
The head may be sick but the body is full of vitality.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by breandan
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Jaysus - I'm tireder than I thought!
worls = world
crown = crowd
Though maybe worls is more apt :P
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by breandan
Re: Comhaltas Critics
What a funny old world we live in.
Who'ld a'thought a few old jigs on a fiddle could make so much money !
I'm sure, if I was offered 125K in smackers a year, I could loose a few scruples.
It's strange to think that Tammany Hall lives on.
Now, back to learning a couple more tunes on the bouzouki, before Thursday night.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Show me the money. SHOW ME THE MONEY!
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by breandan
Re: Comhaltas Critics
My experience with Comhaltas was very positive for the most part. When I first started to play, there was a chapter in the city where I lived. We had a weekly session. When I was in Sligo in the late 70's, the Sligo Comhaltas chapter was very active and I met several wonderful musicians at their sessions. At some point, though, the rules just got to be too much (charters, dues, officers, blah, blah, blah) and it seemed as though we were spending more time planning events than we were playing the music. There was a rift among the Comhaltas members and this led to some unpleasant musical politics (you know the stuff -- I can't go to that pub because so-and-so has their session there, etc...). I appreciate what Comhaltas offered when I was starting to play, and it was truly a way for me to learn about Irish music and culture. I'm sure I wouldn't have learned so much as quickly without Comhaltas. I guess I outgrew Comhaltas, though. At some point, it didn't offer more of what I wanted and I wasn't interested in playing the politics.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: Comhaltas Critics
In the middle seventies, a few of us decided to form a branch in Derry with 3 objectives in mind. firstly to have a legitimate base to run a school for learners, secondly to use the name of Comhaltas to fight on the Traditional Arts Sub Committee of The Northern Arts Council for money to organise tours, workshops etc. and thirdly to rejuvenate the Ulster Fleadh which at that time was in a sorry state. All of these things came about after 2 or 3 years. People like the late Martin McCabe (Ulster President, Clones) were owed an immense debt of gratitude. Ciaran Carson for the NAC likewise.
So at the grassroots level it was extremely useful, full of people with ideas, forward looking. Like everything else, the problem comes from the Hierarchy, Politics, Nepotism, the Old School Tie, Headquarters Superiority. All they seemed to be interested in was how much money was flowing into their coffers, from the branch, the county and the province. Is it any wonder that ordinary musicians, singers, dancers and lilters etc. don't have a high regard for the Elite far away in Dublin.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Rules!...Rules!.....and more rules!!! It is the same everywhere, I call it conservationism around the word “traditional” …but I shouldn’t be worried about it because in 2200 people will have “traditional electric guitar” so….. People are not obligated to step in them, and CCÉ is not a rock in the shoe or an obstacle to transpose!!!
I see them as a “brake” to prevent wrong steps in the traditional music scene and to keep it coherent..a flashback to old things.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by pitnekit
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Regarding Harry Bradley's point number 5 above as it backs up my allegation further above:
Who says pub-talk (my source) is rubbish!?!? Lest we forget, many an evil plot has been developed and discussed at the local.
Here is where I should launch into a diatribe about how purists always, and incorrectly, want to isolate something as it exists at one moment and preserve it despite it's previous long, and _evolving_ history, but, frankly, I've given up fighting such battles; the US cranks out something like 5 lawyers per nanosecond...we're all doomed!
Have you heard that Microsoft wants to claim rights to the term and action known as the "double-click"? Yes, you see, they don't already have enough money, and one of the zillion members of their legal team is terribly bored just playing golf four days a week.
God is now suing for the rights to our very likenesses since he patented the process by which we are created, and since he spends all that time and effort promoting us and keeping us safe from evolution, he deserves tribute...payable to the church of your choice.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by grymater
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Hi Folks,
As a member of the smaller Glasgow branch of CCE, I'll just step into the ring to come to the defence of CCE, my experience of CCE which has been overwhelmingly positive.
I didn't grow up with Comhaltas or with trad music, didn't in fact get interested in trad music until in my 20s, and joined CCE in aged 30 when I decided to make time to play with other folks rather than on my own in the house. CCE isn't the only place where I play, but it is the only regular event where I can play along with an age range of 6-70 years old.
In my experience, I have had great encouragement from, not just the excellent musicians that attend CCE, but those of all standards. I've seen plenty of kids come along and become absorbed in the music (this last year has been particularly good in this respect). The CCE branch was a great place to meet people with a shared interest in trad music, many of whom have become good friends.
I'm not going to answer the criticisms of CCE political machinations in Dublin, as frankly I don't know anything about these goings on. I wouldn't be surprised if some or even all of these allegations were true. However, it doesn't alter my appreciation for the work put in by those who turn up every week to teach the kids, and play music together, which is what CCE is about for me. I suspect if you live in Ireland, the politics becomes more important. For me in Glasgow, I'm interested mainly in what my local branch is doing.
I do have major reservations about the competitions etc., and prefer the emphasis be placed on the branch's Monday night classes and sessions : far more important than some 10 minute "ceili band" competition slot at the end of the year. My personal choice would be to not use any of the regular meeting time to practice for these events which I see as a distraction from enjoying the music. I'm not against the branch entering these competitions, but I don't like the practice time eating heavily into the regular meeting. Other members of the branch see these events as being of greater importance, there is a spectrum of opinion, of which it is fair to say I lie somewhat to one end. I think we do get the balance much "righter" than perhaps some other branches do in this regard (all down to opinion, though isn't it), and certainly better than the almost entirely competition centred Irish Dance classes, or exam based classical music approaches (It always embarrasses me to hear fully grown men and women describe themselves as a "Grade X" on the piano).
To sum up, there may well be valid criticisms to be made of CCE's political manoeuvrings, but the work which grass roots members of CCE do in promoting the music cannot be dismissed.
Best - Chris
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Thanks Chris. I have a friend that has nothing but good things to say about the branch where he grew up. He keeps threatening to start a branch here. Again, I am just wondering what value it has.
We have started a school of our own, and intend on making it more of a community-based effort. In fact, we called it a "center" instead of a school, because we want it to be a gathering place, a resource for the local community. We want to sponsor sessions like Chris mentions. We envision having concerts from time to time, perhaps sponsoring visiting musicians. We have some great local and regional musicians that we can tap for help, and connections to Ireland.
So I guess, what would we buy with a CCE branch?
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Jode
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Hello Jode,
My personal opinion would be, if you have the set up you describe then you don't particularly need to "become" a branch of CCE, as you have all the best aspects of my experience in place as things stand. OTOH, if the thought of all those competitions etc. did particularly appeal to you...
Cheers - Chris
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Back to that question again: how important are the competitions? And how important is it to give your students a "leg up" by being a part of the membership? Will our students have a difficult time competing fairly against other students that have CCE branch sponsorship?
Our feeling is to deemphasize the competition, making it optional to our students. I think we would rather concentrate on sessions, ceilis and a few performances. We did have one of our students attend the fleadh this year, and she enjoyed it as a learning experience, and as a way to meet people her age that play the music.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Jode
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Roger's very quiet all of a sudden...
My personal experiences of the Comhaltas phenomena derive mainly from my observation of the aforementioned 'competitions' (although I use that term in the loosest possible sense). From what I've seen at some of the major fladhs, it appears that many competitors are discriminated against on the grounds that they are not members of the CCE, and thus do not fulfill the most basic of criteria for placement. On several occasions, I have been known to fall from my chair in disbelief, an action that has fast become reflex to the blatant prejudices of certain judges.
However, I do not dispute that there are competitions void of such bias; merely that I am yet to witness such seemingly-elusive events.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I experienced a blatant prejudice judge summing up after a duet contest very recently. There had been 7 sets of duets in that competition and the judge went on to explain that he felt there had been 6 good performances in the duets today. He then went on to describe how he arrived at his decision of the 3 places. Talking on, he then gave a brief discussion on the 6 duets that he liked and talked about their instrument and their tuning etc. This then only left one duet out of the discussion and leaving no doubt who was last (more like excluded from the competition) Needless to say these kind were not members of either the 2 branches who’s names had been bantered about throughout the competition. I’ll even go on to say that one of the gentlemen on the table made the effort to applaud all contestants apart from guess who he didn’t bother applauding.
Would you say this is the right way to do things?
Was there a point being made here?
Is the CCE so insecure, they have to resort to this sort of thing?
How do you thing those 2 kids felt?
Is this promoting culture?
Why open the competition to none CCE?
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Seanie
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Ooooh, the questions Seanie lol.
I don't know about insecure, but they are certainly what I would describe as 'purist'. The poor representatives of Comhaltas whom I have had the uncertain pleasure of dealing with seem, to me, to be hell-bent on repressing the very diversity and individuality that is of paramount importance to the continuing evolution of ITM.
From what I've read of that story, the judge in question was behaving most unprofessionally. However there remains two sides to every story, just as constructive criticism is of paramount importance to the improvement of one's playing. My advice to that particular duo would be to steer clear of these events, and to visit some sessions with bloody good local musicians; hopefully, here they will recieve a real insight into the music, the people, and the craic.
never-trust-a-violinist
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Roger, given this long list of creditable greivances, do you think that the CCE can address them and change? It seems like more has to be done than just "offering suggestions" to CCE. Harry's point #3 indicates that the current power structure is resistant to change or correction.
To quote another source, "many of the branches are healthy, but the trunk of the tree is rotting". Chris gives evidence that the organization has potential, witnessed by the success of certain branches.
And Harry B, do you think that a person with Breathnach's spirit could take on the CCE and revitalize it for the next generations? Is it a worthy cause?
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Jode
Re: Comhaltas Critics
"Roger's very quiet all of a sudden..."
He seems to have disappeared all together now that you mention it.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Take it easy on the fella Jack. Last time you invoked Harry Bradley on him. Next it will be Fintan V.
You guys gotta Comhaltas out there in SF?
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Jode
Re: Comhaltas Critics
No hard feelings to Roger. I just wanted to open up the discussion a bit, not offend anybody (apart from the commiters of the offences outlined above).
I don't think that being involved in CCE and not being aware of these issues is a punishable offence. People should be able to just enjoy culture and not have to worry that these things are being done in their name. Unfortunately, as it stands the situation of general, blissful ignorance is to the advantage of certain highly placed 'sharks' and some of us have to keep an eye on them and cry foul the odd time.
Jode, I believe that CCE is a golden age waiting to happen for ITM. If somebody could properly manage the incredible resources, human and otherwise, available to CCE then I'd find it hard to imagine how much good could be done. The main change needed (to continue the tree analogy) is a good pruning at the top and some care taken of the roots... and the soil, the field and sorrounding grass.
They could do a lot to develope artistic ethics as well. Nobody has ever convinced me that they, as an organisation, actually understand the traditional arts or the transmission of style and development of the sort of expressive, personal styles that define ITM. I always get the impression that they don't really take ITM seriously as a set of art forms. Art is expressive, at its best it resonates uniquely from the very core of individuals: read anything like that in Treoir magazine? No, because CCE claims to be pro-art without being pro-artist as unique individual. They( he) is nervous of powerful individuals and would prefer a country of compliant 'citizens' to do his bidding, play his idea of relativly safe music and be ruled from on high by himself (read the latest load of editorial ranting on the subject of funding and accompaning citizen vs 'selfish individualism' tripe in their rag).
Regards,
HB.
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Harry B
Re: Comhaltas Critics
"You guys gotta Comhaltas out there in SF?"
We do actually: http://sf.ccewest.org
# Posted on May 24th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Comhaltas Critics
That's it Harry, we're in. How can we miss a ground floor opportunity on the next golden age! (sorry)
OK, here's the highjack then, since Roger hasn't reappeared.
Resculpting the original question to the detractors of CCE: is it time to stop the complaining and do something about Comhaltas from the inside? Back to the analogy, cannot we start at the grassroots and affect change?
# Posted on May 25th 2005 by Jode
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I agree with you Jode, but how do you suggest one go about such reform?
# Posted on May 25th 2005 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Though I think someone drunk with power is too p*ssed to listen to anyone else (that's their problem in the first place), a deafening response from the members themselves is about the only way to do it. You must encourage all of the sorts of people who believe CCE is great top to bottom that it is not great at the top, though their branch may be the mark of integrity.
By the way, let's not gloss over what I believe is the important point here: The confirmed fact that CCE (see #5 in Bradley's first post), including some of it's branches (see Will Harmon's post above), believe that they OWN Irish Traditional Music. I'm sure CCE has done worlds of good for ITM, I have absolutely no experience with them, but the session itself is the most important element of the music; it is most responsible for keeping the music alive. This is where I have indirect experience with CCE. CCE declaring that someone needs PERMISSION from them to hold a session? And the fact that they are using other organizations to harass pub owners into buying permits to hold sessions because the pubs are "making money" off of "copyrighted" music? Perhaps these threats would never hold up in any court...they're not meant for that purpose. When someone has a team of lawyers ready to go, and you have to hold a bake sale to build a legal-defense fund, well, chances are you'll take the path of least resistance.
So the competitions might be skewed--big deal...don't enter them. But if people and pubs become intimidated and stop having sessions, then that affects me, you, and the music. It constitutes destruction of culture not preservation.
Death threats will be joyfully printed out and used to fortify the outer walls of my home.
# Posted on May 25th 2005 by grymater
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Competitions fixed? Must be like the football and snooker.
And people in Ireland tend to ignore stupid laws, like someone owning "music".
# Posted on May 25th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Comhaltas Critics
All the way out in the San Francisco Bay Area of California musicians are talking about the effect of IMRO and Comhaltas decisions on the future of Irish trad music/copyright law, etc.
As a newspaper reporter and independent filmmaker, I'm interested to speak with individual musicians/pub owners/publicists, etc. for whom these decisions have been either a detriment or a benefit.
I've spoken with musicians that said they were better off leaving Ireland to ply their trade than dealing with IMRO. I've spoken with an equal number who know nothing of the controversy - and by that token do not believe it to be worth too much consideration. I'd certainly also be interested to hear from those who believe IMRO and Comhaltas' partnership is a strong foundation for the preservation of Irish music.
Mr. McCann's work is surely worthy of note, though I'd be interested to get more personal perspectives on what is happening...and perspectives that differ from those expressed in the news media thus far.
My email is below, so please feel free to contact me directly with your stories, thoughts on contacts, etc. Thanks much!
# Posted on June 26th 2006 by nickguroff
Re: Comhaltas Critics
"Trouble also sometimes bubbles up from the bottom. I once got a call from a CCE member who asked whether I had "permission" to operate the weekly session I had organized. I laughed, thinking this was some sort of joke, but she was quite serious. And here I was thinking I lived in "the land of the free" - same thing happened to me in clonmel when we put on a street session in febuary 2009 its ridiculous but in fairness to comhaltas as a whole music in clonmel and Ireland wouldn't be anything as popular as it is now if twasnt for them
# Posted on August 8th 2009 by premier
Re: Comhaltas Critics
You should have informed her of your intent to forthwith check with the official Department of Arsery whether or not she was qualified to act on their behalf.
- Chris
# Posted on August 8th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Since arriving in Ireland from England in 2005, with hopes of being welcomed as a fiddle player, I have been ostracised, excluded, and demonised by some Comhaltas members. Some even refuse to speak to me. The cult-like, impenetrable goldfish bowl in which they exist is sad. Coming from a classical background, I can read music very well - I can not get my head around why this is regarded as a crime.
Unfortunately for Comhaltas though, I am not going to stop playing - on the contrary, in fact. It seems I am going to (unintentionally) upset a lot of people by demonstrating that a classical training can knock spots off a lot of their 'experts'.
# Posted on October 2nd 2011 by hoopoe
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I have had 2 fiddle teachers who emphasized classical-based technique. However they are both performers, who play bona fide "fiddle" music.
I did grade 8 piano and grade 2 theory. I felt that learning theory greatly helped me learn to figure out scales on the fiddle by myself.
My current fiddle teacher's comments about classical style learning, was that by placing your hand in a classical way on the fiddle, you can play notes more easily and you are less likely to injure yourself. She said that the fiddlers who got the furthest professionally also have a classical background.
I took lessons briefly from a "pure" classical violinist. I could tell pretty quickly that he wasn't able to teach me things like turns and other things that made it sound more fiddley so I quit.
Hoopoe, that is too bad that you have been ostracized. Maybe people were feeling threatened by what you were bringing to the table instead of welcoming it.
I kind of question the choice of tunes on the Comhaltas list of repertoire tunes. I had never heard of most of them! I suppose that is the point, to preserve the music.
However when I began playing, I purposely went looking for tunes to learn that were not obscure, tunes that I found on many websites, the whole point being to not be playing a tune no one has heard of. I think I inadvertently found tunes that are popular with old-time fiddlers... but they have Irish origins.
So to get any fun out of the Comhaltas sessions, I am going to have to learn 20 tunes, mostly well enough to play in front of people. The one I went to was touted as a beginner's session, I enjoyed myself, but I have a ton of homework now!!
I get a bit annoyed when people say that learning from sheet music makes you sound "like a Yank". I think that if you have a half-decent ear, and you do listen to trad music, you can make the sheet music sound halfway genuine.
# Posted on January 17th 2012 by noinin
Re: Comhaltas Critics
I think they are all a shower of self-obsessed fanatics with their heads up there a***. Some kind of narcissistic ignorance permeates their thinking. This very night I was accused of being a classical player and was not allowed to play with the group in question - I have tried hard and succeeded in playing in the Sligo style but the prejudice persists. It's made me very depressed, and suicidal. Jim
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by hoopoe
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Hi Jim take it easy
the music is about people as i said before. It comes from the kitchens a few people gathering to have fun,
Its strange they accuse you of being a classical player, because i see cce turning most of the players into classical performers by their competitive nature. So why bother putting your hand out
As for the sligo style , listen to the old players and see how many you can find these days , not only their music but their humanity..
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by corncrake
Re: Comhaltas Critics
Put your passion in the music, don't turn it on yourself. Music is great medicine, excellent therapy, though it is nice to play with others. If you're not making it with the local Comhaltas lot, find others to share the music with and a bit of chat and humour. There must be other sessions you could check out. Go just for a drink and observed, then later, if it seems right for you, take your instrument, and still mostly listen. Let them ask you to play something. Here's hoping you can work things out, with yourself as well as others.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by ceolachan
Re: Comhaltas Critics
"It's made me very depressed, and suicidal"
I hope this is exaggeration. Really, a shower of eejits such as you describe is not worth this sort of emotional investment. Let them go, and find people that you like and play music with them.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Comhaltas Critics
("eejits" is apparently what they call eejits in Seejithorpe... it's not the word I used...)
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Comhaltas Critics
hoopoe, I'm Welsh/Cornish/English/bit of Spanish somewhere in there. I have never come across any sort of prejudice against me or anyone else in relation to traditional music in Ireland. If you think you've "succeeded" in a particular style and if you think your "classical training can knock spots off a lot of their 'experts' " then I would strongly urge you to look at your own prejudices and attitudes first and stop externalising your own problems.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by ethical blend
Re: Comhaltas Critics
OK Ethical Blend. All I was saying was that I have worked hard to adjust my playing style in a humble effort to be accepted and fit in to the way things are done around here, but it didn't happen. CCE encourages competitiveness. I admit it was a bit harsh to use the terminology "knock spots off their experts", but it is a fact that learning how to hold and play the instrument initially helps a great deal. Can I ask you what problems you think I'm externalising?
# Posted on May 1st 2012 by hoopoe