There are some good discussions here about clip-on microphones for fiddles, a search should lead you to them.
I direct you to the concept of using a mic because all the pickups I have heard have sounded less natural than the mics that clip on.
I work with a couple fiddlers who use the AudioTechnica AT35x Pro. There are two models, one uses a little separate battery pack and the other doesn't, and plugs straight into a mixer. I like the one that doesn't.
These mics are <$150 new on the 'net.
I've tried a lot of different things, and everything involves a compromise.
Mics sound best -- espeically small-diaphram condensers on the fiddle and mandolin. Once a guitar player with onboard electronics in his accoustic plugs in to the board, forget it. So if you're going to use mics, everybody has to use them. If one player is going to use a pickup, the other string instruments are going to get lost. I've even tried using two mics, and it's just a lost cause.
I'm using a Fishman -- the one with a chin-rest type clamp for the jack and a wedge shape transducer you slide into the bass side of the bridge. I run a line into a direct box (I don't use the preamp I bought with it) and from there into the board.
It doesn't sound a good as just mics, but it sounds pretty good when it's EQ'd. I can get enough signal back through the monitors to hear (when we're playing loud in a bigger venue) without feedback.
I've never tried a clip on mic. Some people use them in conjunction with a bridge pickup. You adjust the mix according to volume: the quieter the over level, the more you go with the mic, bringing it down and the pickup volume up as the overall mix gets louder. (Check out Darol Anger's website; he's not a trad player, but he has some info on pickups.)
I like something simple that I can take off and stick in the fiddle case until I need it again.
I think a lot depends on the violin, too. The Fishman is servicable on my violin, but I tried one over their transducer bridges on my mandolin and it sounded horrible no matter what I did. Go figure.
I tried using a friend's Fishman pickup and wasn't crazy about the sound quality. Finally I ordered "the Band" from Headway, which is a crazy-looking pickup that wraps around the fiddle body. It hasn't arrived yet, so I can't tell you how it sounds.
I use a fishman for the same reason that Romkey does - no feedback when the levels are cranked and you can take it off when you don't need it.
I'm pretty sure the L.R. Baggs is a special bridge that you use instead of the existing bridge. My guess is that it deadens the sound acoustically. I asked Donnell Leahy what he uses, last time I saw him play, and he said that he and all the Leahy's use L.R. Baggs.
It's all personal preference I suppose. If you aren't playing in big, noisy venues perhaps a small condenser mic would give you the best sound. Make sure you can try before you buy, or return the mic/pickup if you don't like it.
“If one player is going to use a pickup, the other string instruments are going to get lost. I've even tried using two mics, and it's just a lost cause.”
It shouldn’t be that way, if the sound technician knows what s/he’s doing. A big IF. Don’t get me started.
I really dislike the sound of every guitar pickup I’ve heard, but fiddles and mandolins can be tolerable with a pickup. Good enough that I'm not distracted by the sound quality.
I used a borrowed fiddle fitted with a Headway VL3 pickup, just for one gig - good solid sound, no complaints. A bit on the expensive side, all things considered - it might be worth considering an electric violin (eg Yamaha SV-200) if you do a lot of live work, but that's another story....
Good quality mikes certainly are another alternative, if you've got a good sound man - in my experience, they're difficult to handle by yourself.
"Once a guitar player with onboard electronics in his accoustic plugs in to the board, forget it. So if you're going to use mics, everybody has to use them."
I don't understand this. I've worked in a lot of situations with both mics and direct instruments (guitars) and never found this.
Headway do a pickup called 'The Band'. It takes the form of a lentgth of plastiing tubing (containing a flexible piezoelectric transducer) which wraps right around the lower bout of the fiddle, just behind the bridge, fastening to itself with velcro. The sound is good, and the great thing is, it requires no modification of any kind to the fiddle or bridge and can be easily transferred from one fiddle to another, if necessary.
I have used both the Fishman and the Baggs on the same fiddle. To my ear the Baggs was infinitely superior, not good, but better than the Fishman, which was shrill. Both definitely need EQ and a good preamp. The Baggs is permanently installed in a bridge but it doesn't affect the acoustic sound in any detectable way.
I finally went back to a mic to get a good acoustic sound.
It all comes down to how much noise you want to make. Obvioulsy a good microphone which is not attached to the instrument will give you the "truest" sound, but not much volume. So obviosly the best solution is to see if you can cap the volume of every thing else in the room, fellow band members, audience etc, to the top level you can get out of your mic.
But, make a racket if you want. And the best way to do this includes a lot more gear that just a good pick up. Good wires help, a really good desk, comprehensive effects processers, good amps, speakers etc. But most importantly, and much more important then the pick up itself, really good sensitive eq. And perhaps just as important as all this hardware, is some one who really knows what they are doing with it.
It's no good just turning up at a music store and trying out some "bugs"
I’ve also been shopping around lately for a good fiddle pickup. I use the Schertler DYN-M for my mandolin and have been experimenting with that. The Schertler DYN pick ups are expensive but they’re about the best pick ups I’ve used in terms of sound quality. They don’t require a pre-amp but if you’re playing in a very loud environment you might want to get one to help with feedback. Since it’s not a bridge mounted thing, you’ll get less bow noise too. I’ll probably be trying it out in a performance setting in a couple of weeks. One of the things I like most about the DYN pickups is that they only take about a minute to put on and pull off so you don’t have to have anything permanent on your instrument.
All that said, I know of three fiddlers in my area who have recently switched from the DYN to a unit made by Pick up the World. Mostly they say they like the sound of the DYN better but needed something less prone to feedback as they play in very loud environments. This one has a little pad that mounts under the bass bridge foot. I’ve tried it through a high end pre-amp, amp, and speakers and it did well compared with the DYN for sound in my view.
If you are in North America, (or even if you’re not) I’d suggest talking to Lou Roten at LNR Music http://lnrmusic.com/ He carries both the Schertler and the Pick Up The World and is a fiddler who tests out all the fiddle products he sells.
you guessed it, my assessment of the Fishman was that it did a pretty poor job of reproducing the acoustic sound, and believe me, I tried about everything to make it work. What I've been using for the past couple of years is a good condenser mic with some EQ and a little bit of reverb and delay mixed in at the board. It almost sounds right. The biggest problems are feedback and excessive scratchy bow hair noise. For recording I use the condenser about a foot above the sound board, mixed with a second condenser mic pointed up from below. In a quiet environemnt, it works well.
I also have a Fishman bridge on my mandolin, it also requires extreme EQ. I no longer use it either.
I ended up using the Schertler DYN with the PRE-A-II last night and it was great. At the sound check it took us a minute to realize that the speakers were on—that’s how close to real it sounded. This session tends to get louder as the night progresses and I had absolutely no problems with feedback and I was cutting through the din very well.
Tengo un violin clasico,y la pastilla que utilizaba iva aderida al puenbte,lo que hacia que sonara un poco con efecto de sordina y apagado.pienso que lo mejor es un buen microfono o un violin eleectrico..Saludos
Anything that fits on or in the bridge will mute the sound. The only true sound you will get is from a microphone. Until recently I was using a Yamaha MC7 swan neck mike (clips on to chin rest) with a belt pack pre amp which was designed for a saxophone but has worked really well. I got fed up with all the cables and have recently purchased a wireless system from Judicael Strings in Huddersfield ....a mike so new (owner's testing them out and says they are brilliant and the best for the price (£220) that he has ever tested) that it doesn't have a name yet and an Audio Technica Series 1440 wireless system. The owner, Bob Jiggins, is endlessly helpful and is a violin luthier as well as knowing alll the technical amplification stuff. He ALWAYS discourages people from buying anything from Fishman.
Fiddle Pick-Ups
Fiddle Pick-Ups
Anyone know what the best pick up is for fiddles. theres fishman ones and lr baggs ones but if i only get a fishman the pre-amp yoke would cost extra.
Help me please.i know next to nothing about sound engineering etc.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by phiddle
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
There are some good discussions here about clip-on microphones for fiddles, a search should lead you to them.
I direct you to the concept of using a mic because all the pickups I have heard have sounded less natural than the mics that clip on.
I work with a couple fiddlers who use the AudioTechnica AT35x Pro. There are two models, one uses a little separate battery pack and the other doesn't, and plugs straight into a mixer. I like the one that doesn't.
These mics are <$150 new on the 'net.
I hope this helps,
stv
www.cdbaby.com/Culches
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
I've tried a lot of different things, and everything involves a compromise.
Mics sound best -- espeically small-diaphram condensers on the fiddle and mandolin. Once a guitar player with onboard electronics in his accoustic plugs in to the board, forget it. So if you're going to use mics, everybody has to use them. If one player is going to use a pickup, the other string instruments are going to get lost. I've even tried using two mics, and it's just a lost cause.
I'm using a Fishman -- the one with a chin-rest type clamp for the jack and a wedge shape transducer you slide into the bass side of the bridge. I run a line into a direct box (I don't use the preamp I bought with it) and from there into the board.
It doesn't sound a good as just mics, but it sounds pretty good when it's EQ'd. I can get enough signal back through the monitors to hear (when we're playing loud in a bigger venue) without feedback.
I've never tried a clip on mic. Some people use them in conjunction with a bridge pickup. You adjust the mix according to volume: the quieter the over level, the more you go with the mic, bringing it down and the pickup volume up as the overall mix gets louder. (Check out Darol Anger's website; he's not a trad player, but he has some info on pickups.)
I like something simple that I can take off and stick in the fiddle case until I need it again.
I think a lot depends on the violin, too. The Fishman is servicable on my violin, but I tried one over their transducer bridges on my mandolin and it sounded horrible no matter what I did. Go figure.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Romkey
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
Check out the product descriptions at http://proaudio.judicael.co.uk/products.html
I tried using a friend's Fishman pickup and wasn't crazy about the sound quality. Finally I ordered "the Band" from Headway, which is a crazy-looking pickup that wraps around the fiddle body. It hasn't arrived yet, so I can't tell you how it sounds.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by treecipitation
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
I use a fishman for the same reason that Romkey does - no feedback when the levels are cranked and you can take it off when you don't need it.
I'm pretty sure the L.R. Baggs is a special bridge that you use instead of the existing bridge. My guess is that it deadens the sound acoustically. I asked Donnell Leahy what he uses, last time I saw him play, and he said that he and all the Leahy's use L.R. Baggs.
It's all personal preference I suppose. If you aren't playing in big, noisy venues perhaps a small condenser mic would give you the best sound. Make sure you can try before you buy, or return the mic/pickup if you don't like it.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by natharious
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
“If one player is going to use a pickup, the other string instruments are going to get lost. I've even tried using two mics, and it's just a lost cause.”
It shouldn’t be that way, if the sound technician knows what s/he’s doing. A big IF. Don’t get me started.
I really dislike the sound of every guitar pickup I’ve heard, but fiddles and mandolins can be tolerable with a pickup. Good enough that I'm not distracted by the sound quality.
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
I used a borrowed fiddle fitted with a Headway VL3 pickup, just for one gig - good solid sound, no complaints. A bit on the expensive side, all things considered - it might be worth considering an electric violin (eg Yamaha SV-200) if you do a lot of live work, but that's another story....
Good quality mikes certainly are another alternative, if you've got a good sound man - in my experience, they're difficult to handle by yourself.
Jim Dorans
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
you could try this?
http://www.riml.biz/
# Posted on May 20th 2005 by Caraaz
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
"Once a guitar player with onboard electronics in his accoustic plugs in to the board, forget it. So if you're going to use mics, everybody has to use them."
I don't understand this. I've worked in a lot of situations with both mics and direct instruments (guitars) and never found this.
Why do you say this?
Thx,
stv
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Fiddle Pick-Up
Headway do a pickup called 'The Band'. It takes the form of a lentgth of plastiing tubing (containing a flexible piezoelectric transducer) which wraps right around the lower bout of the fiddle, just behind the bridge, fastening to itself with velcro. The sound is good, and the great thing is, it requires no modification of any kind to the fiddle or bridge and can be easily transferred from one fiddle to another, if necessary.
Have a look at www.headwayelectronics.com
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
I have used both the Fishman and the Baggs on the same fiddle. To my ear the Baggs was infinitely superior, not good, but better than the Fishman, which was shrill. Both definitely need EQ and a good preamp. The Baggs is permanently installed in a bridge but it doesn't affect the acoustic sound in any detectable way.
I finally went back to a mic to get a good acoustic sound.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by ScottC
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
It all comes down to how much noise you want to make. Obvioulsy a good microphone which is not attached to the instrument will give you the "truest" sound, but not much volume. So obviosly the best solution is to see if you can cap the volume of every thing else in the room, fellow band members, audience etc, to the top level you can get out of your mic.
But, make a racket if you want. And the best way to do this includes a lot more gear that just a good pick up. Good wires help, a really good desk, comprehensive effects processers, good amps, speakers etc. But most importantly, and much more important then the pick up itself, really good sensitive eq. And perhaps just as important as all this hardware, is some one who really knows what they are doing with it.
It's no good just turning up at a music store and trying out some "bugs"
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by ...
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
I’ve also been shopping around lately for a good fiddle pickup. I use the Schertler DYN-M for my mandolin and have been experimenting with that. The Schertler DYN pick ups are expensive but they’re about the best pick ups I’ve used in terms of sound quality. They don’t require a pre-amp but if you’re playing in a very loud environment you might want to get one to help with feedback. Since it’s not a bridge mounted thing, you’ll get less bow noise too. I’ll probably be trying it out in a performance setting in a couple of weeks. One of the things I like most about the DYN pickups is that they only take about a minute to put on and pull off so you don’t have to have anything permanent on your instrument.
All that said, I know of three fiddlers in my area who have recently switched from the DYN to a unit made by Pick up the World. Mostly they say they like the sound of the DYN better but needed something less prone to feedback as they play in very loud environments. This one has a little pad that mounts under the bass bridge foot. I’ve tried it through a high end pre-amp, amp, and speakers and it did well compared with the DYN for sound in my view.
If you are in North America, (or even if you’re not) I’d suggest talking to Lou Roten at LNR Music http://lnrmusic.com/ He carries both the Schertler and the Pick Up The World and is a fiddler who tests out all the fiddle products he sells.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by iampeterfonda
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
"...the Baggs was infinitely superior, not good, but better than the Fishman."
Scott - If it was *infinitely* superior and still not *good*, then, crikey, that Fishman must have been *bad*.
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
Quirt,
you guessed it, my assessment of the Fishman was that it did a pretty poor job of reproducing the acoustic sound, and believe me, I tried about everything to make it work. What I've been using for the past couple of years is a good condenser mic with some EQ and a little bit of reverb and delay mixed in at the board. It almost sounds right. The biggest problems are feedback and excessive scratchy bow hair noise. For recording I use the condenser about a foot above the sound board, mixed with a second condenser mic pointed up from below. In a quiet environemnt, it works well.
I also have a Fishman bridge on my mandolin, it also requires extreme EQ. I no longer use it either.
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by ScottC
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
I ended up using the Schertler DYN with the PRE-A-II last night and it was great. At the sound check it took us a minute to realize that the speakers were on—that’s how close to real it sounded. This session tends to get louder as the night progresses and I had absolutely no problems with feedback and I was cutting through the din very well.
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by iampeterfonda
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
Tengo un violin clasico,y la pastilla que utilizaba iva aderida al puenbte,lo que hacia que sonara un poco con efecto de sordina y apagado.pienso que lo mejor es un buen microfono o un violin eleectrico..Saludos
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by vicentefiddle
Re: Fiddle Pick-Ups
Anything that fits on or in the bridge will mute the sound. The only true sound you will get is from a microphone. Until recently I was using a Yamaha MC7 swan neck mike (clips on to chin rest) with a belt pack pre amp which was designed for a saxophone but has worked really well. I got fed up with all the cables and have recently purchased a wireless system from Judicael Strings in Huddersfield ....a mike so new (owner's testing them out and says they are brilliant and the best for the price (£220) that he has ever tested) that it doesn't have a name yet and an Audio Technica Series 1440 wireless system. The owner, Bob Jiggins, is endlessly helpful and is a violin luthier as well as knowing alll the technical amplification stuff. He ALWAYS discourages people from buying anything from Fishman.
Check out his site:
http://www.judicael.co.uk
# Posted on May 23rd 2005 by Geoff Pollitt