Putting aside for a moment the notion of bad singers, anodyne songs, a sense of wanting to belong somewhere in a crowd where music is happening, etc etc......I honestly think that the tradition of the Irish session is instumental music on a variety of instruments playing an even greater variety of tunes - that's about it, I think. As we all know, there are "singers sessions", which may or may not include a few tunes.
Nothing against a good song (and a bonus if sung by a good singer).
Look at it another way - a singer singing a song is a solo act.
Solo acts (vocal or instrumental) don't do too well in a session. Goes against the ways. I didn't make the rules!!!
Sorry jim, but, balderdash!
Loads of sessions in the country areas encourage singing. In built up areas, I think the problem [ in Belfast anyway ] is that people who have taken to much drink, think it`s an open invitation to belt out football anthems.
Lets face it, if it`s a choice between, no singing and singing interspersed with mad rythmic chanting which would you choose?
Rea - that is 100% true about our session, if a person sings - no matter how good, all the young lads think its a free for all and give us heartbreaking renditions of "the Fields of Athenry' etc. So depressing. So NO songs at our session - ever.
Because too many songs interfere with the rhythm of a session. Sometimes when you've finished a couple of sets of reels, a song can be a welcome break, but sometimes it can ruin everyone's flow. It's up to the singer to know when to time it right. As in, when to shut the hell up and let us get on with playing the tunes.
Ah don't listen to Beebs, she crosses the road without looking. C'mon Beebs, one or two songs are ok. Sometimes it's a good chance to have a break and a loud chat. Maybe a good old raucous laugh
In my experience -- unless there is dancing, sessions that exclude songs seem to be focused on the musician's enjoyment. Punters become an audience to a performance -- watching passively -- or the musicians become a live equivalent of musak, providing a soundtrack (albeit a traditional one) to an evening's drinking -- depends on the punter's level of interest in the music.
Sessions that include a song or two after a series of tunes seem to modulate the evening in a way that pulls musicians and punters together, since decorum requires the room to quiet down for the song.
Sessions *dominated* by songs, however, interfere with this dedicated punter's ability to socialize at the bar . . .
I guess it depends on the session Dow - Not at Durty's cause all the young GAA lads are about. maybe a quieter session like the Gaelic club or the Thurles. But *not* durtys.
Lucky for you Jams that you never have to play in our session with all the GAA lads. Believe me - I love a good song as much as anyone - but sometimes it is just not in the best interest of a session.
Yeah I can't stand singers like that. I hate the way you're expected to clap at the end, when all you're thinking is: "I've just thought of this great set of reels I wanna play - hurry up and finish your song" and it just drags out, on and on and on, verse after verse, and you're not even listening to the words because you're so bored by it, and some 60 year old mediocre guitarist is trying to strum chords along to it in the wrong rhythm, and just when you think you're going to die with the sheer despair of it all, your musician friends start singing along to the chorus, and it makes you just want to pack in music altogether and take up skydiving or something.
Maybe there should be a law in place that states that a maximum of 2 songs are allowed for every 4 hours, and you're limited to 2 verses. Anyone violates the law, and tune players are allowed to eject the singer from the venue, lawfully.
Where I live, there is "session" in town, but it is not strictly speaking an Irish session. Its a place where people gather once a week with their music stands and read music for several hours. After every third tune, there is a song, which is almost always about drinking or bartenders or boats (maybe these are shanties?).
At the other session, which is Irish tunes, no one sings because no one feels like they sing well enough. Its a small session - maybe five or six people - fiddles, accordion, maybe a mandolin - and we just play tunes.
I agree with rea, though. I have been to many sessions in the country in Ireland and singing is very important there. It is certainly a way for the community to be involved even if they don't play an instrument. One of my favorite sessions ever was in Adare, a small town in Limerick, in the late 70's. I walked through the town during the day, then later I was in a pub for a pint. The man sitting next to me at the bar asked "where is your fiddle". He had seen me walking throught the town earlier that day. I didn't have it with me, but her said go get it and meet him at another pub in half an hour. I got my fiddle and showed up at the other pub and found 15 or so of the locals that he had called together. There were fiddles and a couple of drums, an accordion and a guitar and many voices. We played tunes and between the tunes, there was a song. Everyone sang something. And they sang beautifully. They even got me to sing some American folk songs (it was bad, but I was probably the only one who thought so). Really great fun that night.
Does Dow have a Roman nose. It doesn't seem to matter that it could be the best guitarist in the world, and best singer, no singers allowed.
Did you ever stop and think that the singer might be thinking "This show off can't wait to play three more reels, indistinquishable from the last three". And most of the pub would be thinking the same.
James and John seem to have been lucky and enjoyed "real" sessions, as distinct from music worship for the choosen few.
By the way, does nobody have any control at their sessions. If someone wants to sing "chucky" songs just tell them to p*ss off.
If the best guitarist and best singer in the world came to our session and hogged it, singing a song after every set of tunes, yeah I'd be p*ssed off actually because tune playing is much more of a minority interest than singing/singer-songwriting. That's why punters tend to appreciate the songs more - because they can identify with them. Well I don't give a damn what the punters think, and I don't give a damn if singers don't understand the tunes. It's no excuse to hog a session, however good a singer you are. There aren't many pubs where you can sit down and have tunes in our neck of the woods. The tunes players have worked hard to get their weekly session. We're damned if we're going to let it be ruined by dickheads singing Fields Of Athenry, Whiskey In The Jar and the Wild Rover. By the way, I don't have a Roman nose. In fact I have quite a small, inconspicuous nose, and I'm happy with it, so there.
Always expect extremes from an extremist. Who mentioned the singer "hogging the show?"
I am a renowned exponent on a bodhran, but also a multi instrumentalist.
Mind you, being an instrumentalist does not mean that one knows something, if some of the above comments can be used as a measure.
Seems to me that many of the instrumentalists onthis site have major inferiority complexes, and feel the need to guard what they have got.
And it doesn't have to go to the extreme, there's that word again, of Athenry, Wild rover. Why not Sean O,Dwyer na Glenna, or The Flower of Magherally?
I take "extremist" as a compliment. Thanks. It means I've put forward my point of view clearly... better than people who circle "don't know" in multiple choice tests.
No-one mentioned singers not understanding. Or is it because they do not belong to the sacred inner circle of ITM that you imagine they do not understand? It seems to me that you do not understand.
Besides, why should instrumentalists, nowadays many of them playing "Appalachian" ITM Gerry O'Connor style, hog the show?
I can't sing worth sh*t, but I wish I could. I played in a band once where it was compulsory for each band member to sing a song at a gig. After the first gig (I sang my song), my band mates decided that it was okay that I didn't sing. That's how good I sing.
But I am always moved by songs. I love to hear the emotion of the singer in the song - the words, the melody, and the loudness, the softness of the voice. I also love the feeling of the singer being able to involve others in the song. I was fortunate to live in Seattle when Joe Heaney was there and I heard him sing many times. I think singing is very powerful. It brings people together. People feel included, which, to me , is what the idea of "session" is about.
Songs would interfere with a caller at a dance. Tunes give the rhythm and mood to dance. I was under the impression that "sessions" were for dance music. However, when our group plays at dances songs are used for filler between dance sets while everyone has a drink or takes a breather. Tunes have their place as do songs. I object to neither, even "Wild Rover" et. al.
I don't understand, I never heard of singing being "banned" at sessions.. If there's someone that sings at our sessions -- we ask for a song. Always have -- always will.
I have to agree with Mr Bliss. Much as I love the tunes (I'm just taking a break from working my way through Foinn Seisiun Book 1 as it happens), I really dislike 'tunes only' sessions.
My local session is actually two - an early on which is mostly songs, but no-one minds if you play a tune or two, and a later one which is tunes only. The tunies turn up about two hours into the piece, and then hang around looking peeved and tutting, looking for a chance to break into a set. As soon as they do the singers pack up and leave.
Try as I might, I can't get them to change the mix (and I know I'm not the only one who would like to). It's got to the point where I'm seriously considering dropping the session in favour of one that's an hour's drive away but is smaller and hence more mixed. Trouble is it's midweek, and I can't have a drop or two without suffering on the Thursday morning.
Plus I find I'm starting to like the singers more than the 'instrumentalists' - I've always preferred laid back people and too many tunies are strung tighter than their fiddles.
I never said I was against songs per se. Read my comments. I said they can be a welcome break from a set of reels. Unfortunately, too many singers see a session as a showcase for their singing talent and expect to hold the show. I'm explaining that that's why some tunes players don't like songs at their sessions. You asked the question - I'm trying to answer it for you. Call me a snob of you want. I like sessions where people play tunes. What's wrong with that?
Hmmmmm, obviously you lads do not, repeat do not have a GAA infestation. Because we wouldnt even be talking about this if you did. Plus - when the lads start singing stupid songs then i do tell them to shut up - but it makes no difference to them cause there is like a hundred of them and they are all drunk and I am just me. Maybe this shoud be the question ....Why oh why do drunken irish lads think they can sing, when they cant,? Why? I know I cant sing - so I dont inflict it on anyone else. But being comepletley tone deaf does not seem to stop these people. Why???!!!
bc_box_player - dont you think that it is a bit of a sweeping gerneralisation that instrumentalists are more tightly strung than their fiddles?? I know alot of tunies in Brissie and I have to say - they are total legends and top notch players. I find that most us *tunies* only ever get highly strung when there are morons wrecking the session.
Also, it's telling that you ask about songs, and then tell us you'll ask the same question of slow airs. Don't waste your breath. In a session environment they're 2 different animals, even though most slow airs are the tunes of songs. No musician in their right mind would look down on slow airs. You have to be really good to play them properly, and you have to be a tunes player. Any drunken idiot can (try and) sing a song. That's the problem tunesters have with singers. It's not the songs themselves. It's when it's a case of bad timing starting a song just when the tunes are flowing and have achieved a certain momentum, or simply that the "singer" is some drunken idiot who thinks it's a free-for-all.
Did you ever stop and think that the singer might be thinking "This show off can't wait to play three more reels, indistinquishable from the last three". And most of the pub would be thinking the same.
Don't give a flying fart. I don't play tunes for the singers if they don't appreciate them, and I certainly don't play tunes for the non-musicians in the pub, although if they find they like the tunes, then good on 'em. No, I play tunes for my own enjoyment, and as an act of sharing with the other tunes players who are playing with me.
bb - of course it's a sweeping generalisation to say instrumentalists are more tightly strung than their fiddles. That's why I didn't say it. I said TOO MANY of them are. There are some fantastic players here who have no interest in singing. Fair enough. Doesn't mean singing should be excluded 'though.
Singing is as much a part of the tradition as the tunes. It seems to me that the problem some of ye have is that you are choosing the wrong venues where loads of drunken yobs 'sing'.
At many of our sessions one of the musicians will usually call for a song if there is a decent singer about.
The song is not an interlude to have a noisy chat but a time for quiet reflection, chance to light up, savour your pint and listen to the words of the song.
At some venues here there might even be a formal Fear an Tí, such as at the Skerries in Newtown Crommelin to ensure the right balance between song and tune.
Indeed, many tunesters are also fine singers who DO understand the 'rules', Wreckin Rea being a case in point.
So, enough of the sweeping negative generalisations and give us a song.
As I roved out one evening fair, by the verdant braes of 'Screen ...........
I am a little confused with the either one way or not philosophies of some folks surrounding sessions. I am not being critical, not even in a jesting way, as it seems to me that the potential for a bad fiddle, flute, box, whistle, or mandolin player insisting on playing in a session can be as devastating as the potential of a bad singer singing a song in a session.
I understand the fear of having fifty to one hundred drunk folk singing sport song after sport song. That I would suppose has great potential for ending the session straight away, but I don’t understand the grouping of all singing into this scenario as a reason to not allow songs in a session. This is not to say that everyone has to enjoy songs in a session or even permit them if indeed they are the one in charge. After all quality camaraderie entails respect for one another.
I am also a little confused by the notion that all singers are simply looking to show off. There are a great number of very emotionally charged ballads that when sung by a singer skilled in their craft are no less a creative expression, and component of the “Tradition”, than a masterfully rendered set played by a fiddler, flautist, et al.
I cannot speak broadly about the sessions in Ireland as I have only participated in a few by comparison to most involved in this discussion, but those I have participated in have included many finely rendered songs much to the delight of the melody players as well as the rest of the folks. In the NYC area it is a rare occasion that songs are not included in a session.
I, at best, can deliver a respectable rendition of the songs I sing and I say this as I am nearly always asked to give a song when I am in a session. That said, there have been occasions when the Pub has been so loud that hearing one another whilst playing tunes has been difficult if not downright impossible. Then when a song is sung, by myself or another, the folks focus more on the music and tone down the volume of talk and listen to the song. After that the overall noise level goes down as it seems the folks remain more focused on the music, at least for awhile, and we can hear each other playing tunes again. I am of the mind that all participants in a session should offer whatever talents they have for the good of the whole session. What is less valid about a singer earnestly offering their talent for the good of the session then an instrumental melody player doing the same?
I really cannot look upon the tradition as being separate components, the music as one and the craic the other. To me the “Tradition” is the sum of the whole. There have been nights when I have sung a song and when I have gotten up for another whiskey or a trip to pay the rent I have been stopped by someone, especially someone of the generation ahead of me, and told the song that I sang was sung to them by their departed mother, father, uncle or whomever when they were young and still in Ireland. Their faces are so very content and in some cases there has been a small tear in the corner of their eye as they relate their story to me. In my heart and mind these experiences, even as infrequent as they are, are why I play and sing the music. My performing on stage at Carnegie Hall (as if I have a snowball’s chance) to me would not be more moving or deeply satisfying then my having the opportunity to bring such comfort and/or momentary happiness to another person one to one as it were.
Sometimes I must say that some that participate in the discussions here are like the dyed in the wool Republicans and Democrats over here in the US. It seems at times the position of some is that there are no valid philosophies other than their own. To my way of thinking if one simply looks at the extreme ends of any philosophical spectrum they are doing nothing other than missing the 80 to 90 percent of life that transpires in between these ends. I prefer to cast my net to gather the greatest possible spectrum of experiences whilst on my journey. I can highly recommend this as one never knows when their net will turn up a different kind of fish, one that is enjoyed to a much greater extent than those routinely caught.
How can anyone say that songs and music should be divorced, the human voice is the greatest instrument ever created. But one has to be able to sing, I would be the first to stop someone drunk trying to sing, agreed GAA clubs are not the venues for singing in general. Every singer (and musician) must have a modicum of sense and integrity, for instance if the atmosphere in a pub is of the rowdy kind it is not a goog thing to try and sing a long ballad but a drinking song would go down well and sometimes helps to soften the background noise. These things can't really be generalised. It's a long time since I sang in Belfast but usually in the North songs and tunes were never divorced. I think the problem we have here is the one of "Paid Sessions" the leaders are normally musicians and not inclined to ask for a song probably because they are paid to play music. Surely it is much better to play and sing in a bar where they accept music but don't advertise it, impromptu or organised between friends. Nowadays there are Singers clubs where you won't find an instrument at all, but that to me is going too far in the opposite direction, it's nice to meet fellow songsters but a night of unaccompanied singing can be every bit as boring as a night of 500 reels.
I've nothing against singers or having the odd song or two in a mainly instrumental session at an *appropriate* moment. As Bren observes, many fine instrumentalists are also excellent singers.
It's not these that annoy me , though. As others have pointed out, many people don't grasp the concept of what a tune session is about. Often, singers are the worst offenders! One terrible woman (this was the first time I met her) came over to us with words to the effect "We're going to have some songs. You musicians aren't going going to have your way all night!" Needless to say, she got a few backs up. Anyway, I continue to meet her at festivals but now she has also taken up the bodhran and will "join" instrumental sessions and start banging away. One time, she brought three of her friends(all armed with bodhrans). Now, that's something else that annoys me about some singers. They realise that the opportunities for singing within a particular session might be limited so they "take part" in another way; eg strumming a guitar, shaking eggs, banging on drums etc. This isn't fair on all the good percussionists and guitarists(I'll admit there are many out there, although some might disagree) let alone the rest of us.
Of course, singers are part of the tradition but they have their own sessions and there are also looser arrangements where you can have a mixture of tunes and songs, although they don't always work. So, why don't they leave us alone? Or to put it differently, why do they feel that they have the right to take part? Of course, it would be every bit as arrogant for musicians to "crash" singing sessions and expect to play tunes all night, although singers tell us we would be welcome on their terms, i.e a short set of tunes when it is our turn. However, with a few exceptions, most musicians prefer to be in music sessions. You'll get some who try to accompany singers unvited. They're a menace too.
Sorry, if I'm sounding a bit intolerant today. It really depends a lot on the circumstances. As I've often said here, it's a case of "going with the flow" along with good manners and common sense. That applies to both singers and musicians.
in my experience songs (should) have a regenerative effect on the session.musicians get a break, and the sesion continues in a form (the form of singing) while this happens.
Problem is that people (often drunk) who arent in to the music do see it as a window to belt out there own songs.
Also a song generally needs to be requested doesnt it. "give a song there mick" I have a feeling that there is a divide appearing especially amongst the young people, between singers and musicians.hmmmmmmmmmm.......
There is no divide among the young people around County Down. Many of them both play and sing and it is very much encouraged, especially in the comhaltas groups. And some of the singing is as fine as you'll get anywhere. Cases in point are the Gallaghers and the McCrickards.
As mentioned in an earlier thread, I met up with some fine young musicians from Leeds, Newcastle, etc., at the recent Girvan Festival and several of them were great singers altogether.
Dow
Sounds to me like you need a little holiday, counselling, a reality check and a big dose of medication. Tie him down and sing sweet songs into each ear.....By the way, are you Irish? Do you live in Ireland? Or do you actually live in ? Just trying to get the picture here!
The Girvan festival is great and you can get everything you want there. No, there's nothing wrong with a bit of a mixture when the time and situation is right.
It's more the attitude of some people who will "descend" on a session and expect to sing(or play for that matter) that irritates me. This particular woman who is highly involved in the TMSA (Traditional Music and Song Association of Scotland--though it might be more accurately desrcibed as TSA when you consider who is involved and some of their attitudes) actually tried to warn us off The Harbour Bar and The Ailsa because it was full of musicians "just playing Irish tunes" all night! Of course, I've been coming to Grivan for over twenty years and didn't need her to tell me where I should go. I know too that you *do* get good singers and songs in these pubs too from the musicians themselves and others who have the manners and patience to wait until its appropriate.
Oh for god's sake will you listen to what I'm saying. I never said anything about "all singers". I never implied that there was anything non-musical about the human voice. I never said that singing wasn't a part of the tradition. I never said that songs and music should be divorced. I was answering the question as to why some tune players look down their noses at songs. It's because of bad experiences in the past. Sing a song if you like I don't mind - just don't stick your finger in your ear cuz you look like a right prick.
"Sorry jim, but, balderdash!" ....well, rea, I admire your honesty - and it just goes to show how different sessions are between Southampton and Belfast!
Dow, I wasn't getting at you in particular, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but that last remark was a bit OTT. I have seen musicians play with far stronger grimaces whilst playing music, myself included. I am not known for sticking my finger in my ear, close my eyes sometimes but these things are more to combat the background noise than anything else. I think the days of pretentious folk clubs are long gone or I hope so.
Dow and bb. I think you should remember that this thread was not posted by a musician. You have to remember that for someone who doesn't understand the music, singing is indeed a welcome break. You have to cut these non musicians some slack, I don't mean give in to them, but atleast try to understand their perspective. Just imagine only being able to bang along to the music, I'd find that a tad tedious
Wow Dow that was a shot across the bow. (could be a song brewing here). Chill out man! Its not that serious Dude. I asked if you were Irish coz your view just doesn't seem to fit in with irish tradition and culture as I know it (thats just a personal perspective OK). Most sessions that I have been to have always included songs as part of the musical repertoire. Indeed many musicians I know also sing. Its not about whether they are good enough to enter Eurovision or Australian Idol, its more about them carrying on a tradition that is a part of a whole musical culture. Actually its quite common in many cultures. And whats more I go to sessions locally that include not only song, but the odd poem and yarn (gasp shock horror). And these people seem to know how far to go, as do teh tune players. So we get a range f expeciences at these sessions. Other times we have straight tune sessiosn (usually by invite). Yes its true, we have a diverse life experience going on here that guarantees a well balanced and often humerous experience of life. But we alweays try to be open minded and not get too wound up about it. Enjoy yourself coz life can be very short.......
Much to the annoyance of M.G Dow actually said that I was a VERY GOOD musician, because I only play slow airs, and Dow did say that you had to be very good to play these. So not only am I a bodhran legend, but according to Dow a very good musician. Mind you he hasn't got much right here, so I will take his opinion of my ability with a pinch of salt.
We are now beginning to get a bit of sense on this thread. The idea of having 3 sets of tunes, and then maybe a song, appeals to many. Why does it have to be one or the other in some sessions.
As for GAA boys, a crowd of wimps, hit the biggest one a slap around the head, and the others will behave.
Even worse than those who turn their noses up at the occasional song are the instrumentalists that love to add their "special touch" while someone is singing. There is an art to accompanying a singer that many instrumentalists just don't get--it is not the time to all play the melody in unison, for example! This also happens when someone wants to play a solo aire--aires are not meant to be group affairs. Isn't there a place in sessions for a little solo work now and then? (Is that a good windup for more discussion?)
Whether you're a singer, tune player, or punter -- the bottom line is common decency and good manners. Anyone is capable of spoiling a session.
The good singers are usually in the pub with the intent of hanging around, meeting up with friends and listening to some music. If they happen to play an instrument as well -- the might join in with the tunes. The bad singers are usually the ones who might try a coup d'étate because they aren't asked to sing and are either insecure or delusional about their abilities. If a session is haunted by the latter, folks might be inclined to take drastic measures and exclude singing. When this happens -- it's a sad day for the music.
That last remark might be easier to put into practice now. 1976 in the Bellaghy GAA club, our group were playing and a feller sitting near the stage requested "The men behind the wire" Our lead singer said 3 times that it wasn't in our repertoire but we would nontheless try it before the night was out just to be polite. The gent then walked up to the stage, pulled a gun out of his jacket and said "Sing the men behind the wire", what would you have done?
When I got into "trouble" in Bellaghy for refusing to sing "chucky" songs, a man came up to threaten me. I said "I'm from Andytown, f###k off". Which he promptly did.
If I come across as a bit het up, try and see it from my perspective for a moment. I play music a lot for the sheer enjoyment of it. I love getting together for a session. Unfortunately, I have only a small "window" of 3 hours a week to have tunes with my mates, and that's not enough as it is. It means there's pretty much only time to whip out your favourite few reels and jigs in a few short sets. Hardly enough time to get into a polka or hornpipe vibe or anything like that, even. So with that in mind, we don't want some drunken tosspot constantly requesting songs or trying to give us yet another out-of-tune rendition of the Wild Rover. If an accomplished singer wants to give us a song during a break in the tunes, fine, but they have to understand how they fit into the session, that's all.
Are you sitting comfortably?, then I'll begin.
Once upon a time .... all sessions were singers sessions. Traditional song clubs vetted what instruments you could bring in - guitar compulsary, anglo OK, accordion not ok, bodhran? what's that - no one had seen one before.
Other clubs would not allow trad - it had to be political (feminism was unheard of).
Thank God we have moved on since the 1970s.
Personally, I feel too many hack-singers can only sing after alcohol. Tell them their turn to sing is 8.30pm and they will decline. Tell them to sing with the book shut - ha ha ha ha.
Or put it another way.. I think that a good session achieves a certain balance and momentum after a time, where the playing of one tune will remind other musicians of other tunes in their repertoire and new tunes get pulled out. The tunes start to flow, and the onus gets passed from person to person, and the musos achieve a kind of rapport where one person is almost mind-reading another. It's such a delicate balance, and a difficult headspace to get into. A lot of people don't understand that this goes on, and they steamroller over the top of it and disrupt the flow. Singers come to mind as being particularly good at the steamrollering.
If what you're talking about here is a session between like minded musicians that get together for a few tunes once a week , then I couldn't agree more. If some of the musicians are paid, then what we're talking about is entertainment, and surely the paying (or not) public have a right to ask for a song or anything else for that matter.
"If some of the musicians are paid, then what we're talking about is entertainment, and surely the paying (or not) public have a right to ask for a song or anything else for that matter."
Unless they're being paid to run a session and enjoy it for whatever the musicians define a "session" to be. If their definition doesn't include fulfilling what they might consider to be unreasonable requests -- it's their prerogative.
That's the paradox. If you're lucky -- the publican understands and appreciates what a "session" is. That's the paradox. If you're lucky -- the publican understands and appreciates what a "session" is. If the publican puts bad behavior above a good session for the sake of the till -- it's time to relocate the session.
I think in the end that's what I like about living away from home,
The sessions here are calm, all sorts of live music can be enjoyed in relative quiet. whether it be music and/or song, you don't seem to get all the carryings on, judging by what has been said in several of these discussions. It's true, even years ago we had to move from pub to pub if the players and the proprieters had some kind of altercation but other landlords would welcome them with open arms.
Things are different in America. I think singing interesting or funny lyrics are great, especially if it is an older, historic tune. Sing alongs are great also. However, sessions are different here in many locations. I have even heard short history lessons on the tunes and Gaelic sing alongs.
I'm enjoying the polarisation in this thread. It really is sorting the difference out between music and entertainment. Or should I put it more plainly, the difference between those who play for their own enjoyment, and those who play for the gratification of the eedjits in the bar.
There were a couple of threads earlier about the beauty of the "come all ye" in a traditional village session. This is a completly different discussion from what Dow refers to as his "3 hours".
I agree with with Dow. It's the musician' s time. It's our time. Sod anyone who asumes that we are there to impress. Sod anyone who, by their ignorance, is bored by us. Sod the hangers on. But, most importantly, sod the hangers on who think they know better
Can't help but wonder at how many great tunes and songs could have been played, written, shared and learned in the time that has been taken up by sh*t fighting over personal preferences in session content.
"The sessions here are calm, all sorts of live music can be enjoyed in relative quiet. whether it be music and/or song, you don't seem to get all the carryings on."
From what I've observed this isn't the case. Here in the States the likely hood of sessions having to tolerate bad behavior with clueless publicans allowing it to happen, is far greater. (But not in our local.) On my trips to Ireland, (always in the off season,) I've found mostly very congenial sessions with edified publicans and good manners from punters and musicians alike.
Why can the music facists not do two things at once?
Would it not be possible to play for one's own enjoyment, and get paid and do the odd request. I realise M.G would not "enjoy" the requests, but I am harbouring doubts as to whether the facists enjoy playing at all, so many rules, do's and don'ts, and the seriousness of it all, must make it very stressful.
It is possible to accommodate both worlds. It doesn't always have to be a battle to preserve the "sacredness" of the music.
If you really want to play with friends, and interact from a purely musical viewpoint, well a pub is the last place you want to be. We used to have some great nights in a mate's kitchen, a few drinks and smokes, and incredible music, just playing around.
In short, the facists are compromising the "purity" of the music, and a real chance to interact, by entering noisy establishments.
Its a sad thing to say, but we dont really have much of a choice of venue's to play here in Sydney. Sounds unbelievable doesnt it - 4.5 million people and we have one session a week in a pub that is full of young GAA lads singing 'Fields of Athenry'. But - the owners like us and *want* us around. Now - in my short session life that is the first experience Ive had where the publicans actually *like* the tunes and craic.
So - yes - the venue might not be the greatest. But I challenge anyone - to come to Sydney and find me a better one. I will be waiting with bated breath.
PS - Jamie - stop slagging my friend Dow would you
PS - My dad was a great singer - I love a good song as much as the next person - I grew out in a house full to the brim with songs and singing. I've said it before and I'll say it again - this is not about not liking singers, its merely not always possible to have singing at sessions. I wish we had another supportive place to play here - but we dont. And yes - we;ve tried. Seems we spend all our time looking for better places to play - but nothing ever comes up, or we start a new session and its folded 2 months later because we arent make money for the bar - even if they arent paying us!!!
Anyhow Bliss, did this thread wind us all up as much as you were hoping!??
For all you'ze heads who think we should all be lovey-dovey and ask why we can't all just get along:
Just try going into a singing session (of which there are heaps more of in Sydney than tune sessions) and starting up a tune.. you'd last about a minute and a half before twelve guys with more beard than sense'd kick the #@$#$ out of you.
tune-sessions-for-tune-heads (with the occasional tastefull, non-athenry-dannyboy, song) and singing sessions for people with no taste.
Yes exactly. Its all very well for people on the board to be all like, well why dont you move somewhere else quiter etc. Easier said that done, any how - we have a big Aussie Folk movement here - its different from anything you guys have seen and there are loads more of them than there are of us. And its true what SirNose says- if we started a tune in their Singing sessions we'd be in big trouble.
Jack, I'm sorry, I was talking about France. The last time I was in Ireland was for two singing weekends and a few days up around Teelin in Donegal where we made our own session with old friends, nice few days it was too. We were given the use of Frank Cassidy's old house..... if only the walls could talk.
Sessions, pubs, people, they all go together. Far be it from me to tell anyone how to run a session, but get a life some of you guys. If you really want musical masturbation, then do it behind closed doors!
All together now
"Da fields of Athenryyyyyyyy - Oh Baby let the free birds fly'
Just beautiful. Luckily *some* of us live in Northern Ireland.........one can always dream I spose.
Erm, isn't forcing everyone in a session to stop playing together just so they can here you sing a bloody song the ultimate act of musical masterbation?
in fact, i completely agree with Wotkey, we have a DUTY to force all singers to only sing behind closed doors in the privacy of their (preferably double bricked-double glazed-sound proofed) homes.
"Why, where, when and how did songs manage to get practically banned from ITM sessions."
"Sessions, pubs, people, they all go together. Far be it from me to tell anyone how to run a session, but get a life some of you guys. If you really want musical masturbation, then do it behind closed doors!"
I rarely get to the session bb and Dow refer to, but have actually managed it twice in the last few weeks. Time before last, the 3pm-6pm session was abandoned at 5pm. Yesterday, it was down tools and just give up at 4.20pm. It's a tiny pub and I think it took me 15 mins to get up, fight to the restroom, fight to the back bar, get ignored there by the barman, fight to the front bar, get a drink and fight back to my place. There were 13 musos and I don't think any of us could hear the player next to us.
No one here that I know of is agin a good song delivered well with timing sensitive to the flow of the session. But if you opened the floodgates in this pub, I doubt you'd get your session back till the last drunk had run out of breath. Endov. I can well understand the apprehension that a song at this session would trigger an avalanche. It’s a perfectly simple survival strategy at this particular tune session, and that's all bb and Dow are saying, seems to me. If conditions were different, I don't doubt that songs would be more welcome. But things are as they are, and I think it's reasonable that songs are not encouraged.
No one here in Sydney scene that I've met so far needs to chill out or get a life, I can assure you.
Tish, who are you to tell me that i don't need to get a life!!!@! ;o)
(some sound words.. but where were you on Saterday? 'Twas a lovely session, and it even had a nice balance of songs and tunes (he says completely ignoring the irony of it all))
Saturday, Cinderella was sitting by the firepl- actually I mean the computer at work writing test procedures that need to be finished before I can think about the work I'm going to be doing during my (cross fingers!) upcoming month in London, yippee! And then I had to hightail it home to go do a gig. Bummer.
(One of the reasons I know you lot don't need to get a life is that I know perfectly well there were songs as well as tunes on Saturday.)
Beebs was singing along in the choruses, did you see her? Beebs I can't believe you did that you total traitor - call yourself a tunie. For a moment you made me want to take up skydiving So am I now a musical fascist? Better than being a musical limpwrist like Bodhran Bliss. If you came to our session and were that accommodating, you wouldn't get a chance to whack your bodhran even like *once* for fear of offending someone. Hmm actually maybe that's a good thing...
Haha one thing crossed my mind when I was reading this thread today: all the people who call tunes "songs" are reading this going "WTF I don't geddit". Hahaha.
Dow
Your medication kicked in there for a wee while or so it seemed , then the angry Dow came out again. Tsk Tsk. You were doing so well there for a couple of threads. Back to counselling for you laddie. I agree with Ben, Skydiving sounds like a really good option. Its something you get to do all by yourself without anyone singing any songs to you at all.
Bridie, Wots your story? Singing in a session? Thats great and shows how little respect you have obviously for Dow's somewhat angry and tetchy views. Let Dow fight his own fights, sink his own boat, sing his own songs eh!
And Dow, as for a bodhran player having a limp wrist, don't bouzouki players have a bit of limp wrist themselves when playing (especially with themselves!)
As a singer you really have to be able to judge how sessions are going.
In my regular session ( unfortunately now in hibernation after the departure of one of the main players ( possibly permanently, possibly not)) I would have to judge how the flow was going. Sometimes its was obvious that they were all upfor it that night and I might go to the end of the night with only one song. Othertimes there would be sort of natural breaks , other times they would want me to sing a particular song - as the piper would be able to whip out the B flat whistle and somtime because I knew them well I would sing regardless. I like to think a lot of the time I added to the music but I was never the main focus of the session. The main reason I went to these sessions was to sit and listen to wonderful musicians and it gave me a bit of a buzz that they appreciated it when I sang. I do quite a lot of song sessions and folk clubs but I prefer music sessions with the occasional song.
Saying that when I travel I do go into sessions and try and get a song and almost all are very welcoming. Some sessions are difficult to sing in given the noise in the pub. For example I was in Sandy Bells when the rugby was on and tried to sing during a break in the session but I couln't hear myself - far less anyone else hear me. The fellow sat beside me was most comlimentary thought but I think If I had known who he was I wouldn't have dared open my mouth to sing.
To sum up - us singers in music sessions - good - provided we know what we're doing!
Who me? Angry? No way - I'm just giving as good as I get from Bodhran Bliss in the knowledge that he's an even bigger wind-up merchant than me... I... am, and so won't run away all upset and tearful. Actually I thought Beebs looked bless, singing her little heart out. I even found myself doing as SirNose did - pinching myself (hard) whenever I felt myself beginning to appreciate the songs Oh what a relief though, when we could finally start up the reels again, before my heart rate slowed so much I was about to go into hibernation.
Judy if you're reading this you know I'm only kidding. I'll embrace you again next session to show you how I truly feel, and I'll get those chords right next time.
jfother,
It's nice to hear a singer's viewpoint. You have more or less hit the nail on the head. If everyone had your attitude, there would be no problem or any need for argument. Of course, there's nothing wrong with a few songs but you have to "judge the flow", as you say, in an instrumental session.
Everything you say is fine by me.
Molloyj, you might have put something in your profile so I'd remember who you were! Now, you know me - I'm pretty laid back really. I was so uptight because I'd just come away from a Durty's session last night and was ready to kill someone, so I ended up killing an imaginary singer!
Just outside Edinburgh and I know Sandy Bells well. I should go there more often but my repertoire is probably still too Scottish. However, I like to go there on Sunday afternoons from time to time and visit different sessions in the area. There's quite a good choice in Edinburgh and round about.
Don't think I can justify another trip up to Edinburgh this year - maybe if all the house moving stuff goes smoothly I might make it up at the begining of the winter - meet a few friends, Christmas shop etc. Sunday at Sandy Bells sound good - should be quieter than Friday night. Thought about going then in Feb but I had relatives to go and visit.
Dow - what I would like to know is, what happened? You were so quiet for so long. Just hiding away in the Tunes section as the Tune Policeman. Now all of a sudden you are back firing on all 8 cylinders. Have you been re-invented or is it just a touch of mania at the thought of Beebs leaving soon.
As for songs I'm all with you, because I've been to too many sessions that were killed by song intrusion. But I won't go into the details here as it's too parochial and has to do with the fact that there isn't enough good session time in the week.
We had a very nice session tonight. *hic* Afterwards myself and John had a few shots of *hic* whis-key. I won't be able to comment any further *hic* tonight *hic.* sorry... g'night.
Ok so, erm, *anyway*... [Donough, do you know that drunk tramp who just came over and made weird grunting noises while we were trying to have a conversation?]
Anyway Donough thanks for sticking up for me. It's good to know there are other "musical fascists" around besides Beebs and SirNose.
As for why I'm firing on all 8 cylinders - there's an element of truth in what you say. I'm just excited about Beebs leaving I'm thinking of giving up my job as a tune policeman. There's too much crime these days for me to cope with all on me own.
Hi jfother & JohnJ - I'm in full agreement with you both - that's how singing songs & playing tunes can work perfectly well together. Nice to hear of an eminently sensible approach to the matter.
Awwww, Dow, don't I rate as a musical fascist too after stickin' up fer you guys an' all?
I can understand the desire to kill, after Sunday's session! I just listen, I don't play hardly at all, at all, but I invest as much time getting there and home again as the length of time the session is supposed to run for, and getting time on a Sunday/weekend where I can get away is rare. Its disappointing to have it steamrollered, even for little ole me, and I don't have as much invested in it as youse lot wot can actually play.
Nothing like a good, controversial topic, eh? I thought I'd mention that when I was last in Sligo, they had a song session pub (I think it was O'Connell's or Connors maybe) a couple of blocks from the Furies, the famous session pub. I guess in a city like that, it's a luxury to have two places to use for live Irish music sessions. The nice thing also about the singing session was the same kind general etiquette prevailed, where everyone got a chance to pick a song and only if you knew the backing or words, or could fake your way adaquately did others join in. It was courteous, respectful and fun. It was also larger, cleaner and less smokey than the Furies at the time. B/T/W - we hosted Cathy Ryan here in Atlanta for the first time at Eddies last night. She was great and it was a nice mix of songs and tunes. She had a great guitar/bouzouki guy and very good fiddler with her. It was a sellout too.
I gave up reading this halfway through as it's going round in circles.
it seems to me that there are basically two camps here of essentially the same mind: those that have the luxury of some good singers at their session and who enjoy the odd song in the mix and those who don't have the luxury of good singers but who wouldn't mind having them around. Does that make sense?
I think all sessions benefit in some way from having a song or three but getting the mix right for everyone is a tightrope act.
Let's face it; Dow and bb would probably love to have Niamh Parsons or someone of that ilk to do a few numbers now and again, and Breandan and BB would probably give short shrift to some Plastic Chuckies singing "Say hello to the Provos".
Ah well, it's the bad sessions that make the good ones brilliant.
I realise that some of you have difficulties, and your weekly session might be precious, but there are many sessions lasting 3 hours or so with just tune, after tune, after tune. Nothing morally wrong with that, but what happens if Sean Keane is there and would like to sing a song. Is he allowed to?
And as for having trouble with punters. Please, having survived numerous "Bellaghy" incidents, paid a visit by the other sides gunmen for playing "Pan-Nationalist" music, not to mention a Russian anti-tank rocket coming through the pub window one night, well we have all had troubles, and dealt with them. Sometimes I wonder if the bodhran is to blame. Surely not.
I merely ask for compromise. If I had said "should fiddle players be allowed" would there have been the same rush to condemn "people who want to hog the session, sounding like a cat being strangled". I doubt it, yet these people exist.
Why must everyone on this site, well not everyone but certainly the Oz mafia, why do you always equte a situation with the worst possible scenario.
But help is at hand. Buy a few bodhrans and go round to the singers clubs with them. If they are a s fascist as the rest of you, well they will all go home and you can play to your heart's content.
Tough Aussies, like the "crying" cricket captain Kim Hughes? Even the GAA men thrashed the Aussie rules wimps this year, and imagine letting yourselves get slapped about by the English rugby team. Don't make me laugh.
But just to show what a good guy I really am, more advice. Get a virtuoso bodhran player, and the noisy crowd will soon be reduced to whispering about him/her in awe.
Conan - you are right that this thread is going round and round, but it's hilarious. You guys crack me up. And Bodhran Bliss - being serious...Yeah right! Like that'd ever happen!
Jack, we've since beat the English team in Union (as has every other team under the sun - up Wales!)
Anyhow - who cares if we lose some made up game of Union/GAA. I mean - its not like its a *real* sport or anything like that.
I saw it written and I saw it say,
Pink spooooons are on their way,
None of youuuu stand so tall,
Pink spooooons gonna get you all,
And it's pink spoons,
Yeeeeah, pink spoons,
Pink, pink, pink, pink,
Pink spoons.
Thats great Dow just chop off their heads. God you must be simple mate! perhaps you need something else chopped off so people like you can't procreate. Dow, I seriously think you are on the wrong medication. Perhaps you should get back in your box now! Just think about how beautiful it would be, in a wee break in the tunes to hear the gentle refrain:
Somewheeeeeeere.......under the rainbow.........etc
OK its not quite trad but it is a beautiful song dont you think.
You have been really well behaved for a time (as someone mentioned the tune policeman was being quite quiet). Just for everyone elses benefit ,lately the Australian federal government has increased the price of all prescription drugs and I guess Dow is just another victim of this right wing political tyranny. These drugs do not come for a song. You have to play the tune to get your medication. Its deep I know but Dow understands this. The system here has got so bad that Dow is now posting songs in this discussion just to get the right medication. Has he been manipulating all of us? Come on baby light my fire......
Old (i.e written in the 1960s) Australian song:
"Never trust a man who doesn't drink
Though he's less likely to throw up in your sink
For I'd rather be half plastered
Than a blue-nosed wowser bastard
So never trust a man who doesn't drink"
Molloyj - see you said it yourself! Tunes are obviously more valuable than songs. Also I don't think you need to worry about chopping my bits and pieces off - the gene for "good taste in music" is a recessive one anyway. Funny you should mention about me and my drugs. The other day a man accused me of being a drug dealer and corrupting all the little children. He told me I would burn in the fires of hell.
Just made the mistake of listening to the Nick Drake album again after a long time of not hearing it. Now I feel completely numb and unable to do anything...
I was about to forgive Dow everything for singing "Pink Moon" then he says Nick Drake leaves him numb. That's like those fools who say Leonard Cohen is depressing. Drake, Cohen and others of the ilk are inspiring, it is all in the words. They give you a lift.
Someone mentioned "Somewhere over the Rainbow" which we have done, now doing "Fields of Gold" and Dylan's "To make you feel my love". Not very traditional but they do make a nice contrast to the evening, after 4 sets of tunes. Which is right back to the start. At least we are now talking about songs.
For me instrumental music and songs are two completely different things. I love to play and listen reels, jigs, ect... but songs just bore me to the extreme.
I don't like for instance when I'm listening to a cd and after a bunch of instrumental sets there comes a song, it destroys the whole mood for me.
If I wanted songs then I would buy a cd of songs.
To me traditional instrumental music and traditional songs are two different kinds of music.
But this is only me, ok?
Blisster, if you see the Drake album as being that simple, then fair enough. I personally don't find all of it to be uplifting. Some of it is, but some of it's downright depressing. There's so much there that I find after listening to it that I don't know whether to be really happy or really sad. So I just feel numb.
"I don't like for instance when I'm listening to a cd and after a bunch of instrumental sets there comes a song, it destroys the whole mood for me." - McGregor
I remember thinking that once. I can't remember when, but I think I did. I think it was way before CDs were invented.
I am both a singer and instrumentalist. I'm really tired of people getting on their high horse and proclaiming what they think is a tradition of tunes only. Long before people got into circles and played reel after reel and jig after jig, neighbors and families gathered together to make MUSIC with voices. That is a longer tradition than pubs filled with tune players (and I do enjoy our local session in a pub with tunes & songs.)
Read a bit of history, you tune snobs: http://www.standingstones.com/session.html
Who was talking about tradition? All I'm saying is that I, and other people, like the tunes and don't like the songs. They are two different things. Simple as that.
Why no songs?
Why no songs?
Why, where, when and how did songs manage to get practically banned from ITM sessions.
And why do ITM snobs look down their Roman noses at songs?
I mean many of these songs are Irish, traditional, and surely songs are music.
So why do so many sessions exclude songs.
I'll ask the same question about slow airs later.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Putting aside for a moment the notion of bad singers, anodyne songs, a sense of wanting to belong somewhere in a crowd where music is happening, etc etc......I honestly think that the tradition of the Irish session is instumental music on a variety of instruments playing an even greater variety of tunes - that's about it, I think. As we all know, there are "singers sessions", which may or may not include a few tunes.
Nothing against a good song (and a bonus if sung by a good singer).
Look at it another way - a singer singing a song is a solo act.
Solo acts (vocal or instrumental) don't do too well in a session. Goes against the ways. I didn't make the rules!!!
Jim
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Why no songs?
Sorry jim, but, balderdash!
Loads of sessions in the country areas encourage singing. In built up areas, I think the problem [ in Belfast anyway ] is that people who have taken to much drink, think it`s an open invitation to belt out football anthems.
Lets face it, if it`s a choice between, no singing and singing interspersed with mad rythmic chanting which would you choose?
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: Why no songs?
Rea - that is 100% true about our session, if a person sings - no matter how good, all the young lads think its a free for all and give us heartbreaking renditions of "the Fields of Athenry' etc. So depressing. So NO songs at our session - ever.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Because too many songs interfere with the rhythm of a session. Sometimes when you've finished a couple of sets of reels, a song can be a welcome break, but sometimes it can ruin everyone's flow. It's up to the singer to know when to time it right. As in, when to shut the hell up and let us get on with playing the tunes.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Ah don't listen to Beebs, she crosses the road without looking. C'mon Beebs, one or two songs are ok. Sometimes it's a good chance to have a break and a loud chat. Maybe a good old raucous laugh
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
In my experience -- unless there is dancing, sessions that exclude songs seem to be focused on the musician's enjoyment. Punters become an audience to a performance -- watching passively -- or the musicians become a live equivalent of musak, providing a soundtrack (albeit a traditional one) to an evening's drinking -- depends on the punter's level of interest in the music.
Sessions that include a song or two after a series of tunes seem to modulate the evening in a way that pulls musicians and punters together, since decorum requires the room to quiet down for the song.
Sessions *dominated* by songs, however, interfere with this dedicated punter's ability to socialize at the bar . . .
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Jams O'Donnell
Re: Why no songs?
I guess it depends on the session Dow - Not at Durty's cause all the young GAA lads are about. maybe a quieter session like the Gaelic club or the Thurles. But *not* durtys.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Lucky for you Jams that you never have to play in our session with all the GAA lads. Believe me - I love a good song as much as anyone - but sometimes it is just not in the best interest of a session.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Yeah I can't stand singers like that. I hate the way you're expected to clap at the end, when all you're thinking is: "I've just thought of this great set of reels I wanna play - hurry up and finish your song" and it just drags out, on and on and on, verse after verse, and you're not even listening to the words because you're so bored by it, and some 60 year old mediocre guitarist is trying to strum chords along to it in the wrong rhythm, and just when you think you're going to die with the sheer despair of it all, your musician friends start singing along to the chorus, and it makes you just want to pack in music altogether and take up skydiving or something.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Maybe there should be a law in place that states that a maximum of 2 songs are allowed for every 4 hours, and you're limited to 2 verses. Anyone violates the law, and tune players are allowed to eject the singer from the venue, lawfully.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
One Belfast friend tells me songs are frowned on as it's all too easy to pick one that might be construed as sectarian - even though it may not be.
I like a few songs at a session. But then I also like to hear solos at a session.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by kris
Re: Why no songs?
Where I live, there is "session" in town, but it is not strictly speaking an Irish session. Its a place where people gather once a week with their music stands and read music for several hours. After every third tune, there is a song, which is almost always about drinking or bartenders or boats (maybe these are shanties?).
At the other session, which is Irish tunes, no one sings because no one feels like they sing well enough. Its a small session - maybe five or six people - fiddles, accordion, maybe a mandolin - and we just play tunes.
I agree with rea, though. I have been to many sessions in the country in Ireland and singing is very important there. It is certainly a way for the community to be involved even if they don't play an instrument. One of my favorite sessions ever was in Adare, a small town in Limerick, in the late 70's. I walked through the town during the day, then later I was in a pub for a pint. The man sitting next to me at the bar asked "where is your fiddle". He had seen me walking throught the town earlier that day. I didn't have it with me, but her said go get it and meet him at another pub in half an hour. I got my fiddle and showed up at the other pub and found 15 or so of the locals that he had called together. There were fiddles and a couple of drums, an accordion and a guitar and many voices. We played tunes and between the tunes, there was a song. Everyone sang something. And they sang beautifully. They even got me to sing some American folk songs (it was bad, but I was probably the only one who thought so). Really great fun that night.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: Why no songs?
John, your Adare experience sounds like the ideal session!
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Jams O'Donnell
Re: Why no songs?
Does Dow have a Roman nose. It doesn't seem to matter that it could be the best guitarist in the world, and best singer, no singers allowed.
Did you ever stop and think that the singer might be thinking "This show off can't wait to play three more reels, indistinquishable from the last three". And most of the pub would be thinking the same.
James and John seem to have been lucky and enjoyed "real" sessions, as distinct from music worship for the choosen few.
By the way, does nobody have any control at their sessions. If someone wants to sing "chucky" songs just tell them to p*ss off.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
If the best guitarist and best singer in the world came to our session and hogged it, singing a song after every set of tunes, yeah I'd be p*ssed off actually because tune playing is much more of a minority interest than singing/singer-songwriting. That's why punters tend to appreciate the songs more - because they can identify with them. Well I don't give a damn what the punters think, and I don't give a damn if singers don't understand the tunes. It's no excuse to hog a session, however good a singer you are. There aren't many pubs where you can sit down and have tunes in our neck of the woods. The tunes players have worked hard to get their weekly session. We're damned if we're going to let it be ruined by dickheads singing Fields Of Athenry, Whiskey In The Jar and the Wild Rover. By the way, I don't have a Roman nose. In fact I have quite a small, inconspicuous nose, and I'm happy with it, so there.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Anyway, you're a bodhran player, what would you know?
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Always expect extremes from an extremist. Who mentioned the singer "hogging the show?"
I am a renowned exponent on a bodhran, but also a multi instrumentalist.
Mind you, being an instrumentalist does not mean that one knows something, if some of the above comments can be used as a measure.
Seems to me that many of the instrumentalists onthis site have major inferiority complexes, and feel the need to guard what they have got.
And it doesn't have to go to the extreme, there's that word again, of Athenry, Wild rover. Why not Sean O,Dwyer na Glenna, or The Flower of Magherally?
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
If singers don't understand the difference between "giving us a song" and "hogging the show" then, look, I'd rather we just had tunes.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
I take "extremist" as a compliment. Thanks. It means I've put forward my point of view clearly... better than people who circle "don't know" in multiple choice tests.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
No-one mentioned singers not understanding. Or is it because they do not belong to the sacred inner circle of ITM that you imagine they do not understand? It seems to me that you do not understand.
Besides, why should instrumentalists, nowadays many of them playing "Appalachian" ITM Gerry O'Connor style, hog the show?
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
I can't sing worth sh*t, but I wish I could. I played in a band once where it was compulsory for each band member to sing a song at a gig. After the first gig (I sang my song), my band mates decided that it was okay that I didn't sing. That's how good I sing.
But I am always moved by songs. I love to hear the emotion of the singer in the song - the words, the melody, and the loudness, the softness of the voice. I also love the feeling of the singer being able to involve others in the song. I was fortunate to live in Seattle when Joe Heaney was there and I heard him sing many times. I think singing is very powerful. It brings people together. People feel included, which, to me , is what the idea of "session" is about.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: Why no songs?
Songs would interfere with a caller at a dance. Tunes give the rhythm and mood to dance. I was under the impression that "sessions" were for dance music. However, when our group plays at dances songs are used for filler between dance sets while everyone has a drink or takes a breather. Tunes have their place as do songs. I object to neither, even "Wild Rover" et. al.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by harpalaska
Re: Why no songs?
I don't understand, I never heard of singing being "banned" at sessions.. If there's someone that sings at our sessions -- we ask for a song. Always have -- always will.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
". . ."hogging the show" then, look, I'd rather we just had tunes."
No comment.
KFG
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by KFG
Re: Why no songs?
I have to agree with Mr Bliss. Much as I love the tunes (I'm just taking a break from working my way through Foinn Seisiun Book 1 as it happens), I really dislike 'tunes only' sessions.
My local session is actually two - an early on which is mostly songs, but no-one minds if you play a tune or two, and a later one which is tunes only. The tunies turn up about two hours into the piece, and then hang around looking peeved and tutting, looking for a chance to break into a set. As soon as they do the singers pack up and leave.
Try as I might, I can't get them to change the mix (and I know I'm not the only one who would like to). It's got to the point where I'm seriously considering dropping the session in favour of one that's an hour's drive away but is smaller and hence more mixed. Trouble is it's midweek, and I can't have a drop or two without suffering on the Thursday morning.
Plus I find I'm starting to like the singers more than the 'instrumentalists' - I've always preferred laid back people and too many tunies are strung tighter than their fiddles.
Eno
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bc_box_player
Re: Why no songs?
I never said I was against songs per se. Read my comments. I said they can be a welcome break from a set of reels. Unfortunately, too many singers see a session as a showcase for their singing talent and expect to hold the show. I'm explaining that that's why some tunes players don't like songs at their sessions. You asked the question - I'm trying to answer it for you. Call me a snob of you want. I like sessions where people play tunes. What's wrong with that?
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Bliss - you said I don't understand. Well, maybe I don't, but, if you do, why did you post the question?
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Hmmmmm, obviously you lads do not, repeat do not have a GAA infestation. Because we wouldnt even be talking about this if you did. Plus - when the lads start singing stupid songs then i do tell them to shut up - but it makes no difference to them cause there is like a hundred of them and they are all drunk and I am just me. Maybe this shoud be the question ....Why oh why do drunken irish lads think they can sing, when they cant,? Why? I know I cant sing - so I dont inflict it on anyone else. But being comepletley tone deaf does not seem to stop these people. Why???!!!
bc_box_player - dont you think that it is a bit of a sweeping gerneralisation that instrumentalists are more tightly strung than their fiddles?? I know alot of tunies in Brissie and I have to say - they are total legends and top notch players. I find that most us *tunies* only ever get highly strung when there are morons wrecking the session.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Also, it's telling that you ask about songs, and then tell us you'll ask the same question of slow airs. Don't waste your breath. In a session environment they're 2 different animals, even though most slow airs are the tunes of songs. No musician in their right mind would look down on slow airs. You have to be really good to play them properly, and you have to be a tunes player. Any drunken idiot can (try and) sing a song. That's the problem tunesters have with singers. It's not the songs themselves. It's when it's a case of bad timing starting a song just when the tunes are flowing and have achieved a certain momentum, or simply that the "singer" is some drunken idiot who thinks it's a free-for-all.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Did you ever stop and think that the singer might be thinking "This show off can't wait to play three more reels, indistinquishable from the last three". And most of the pub would be thinking the same.
Don't give a flying fart. I don't play tunes for the singers if they don't appreciate them, and I certainly don't play tunes for the non-musicians in the pub, although if they find they like the tunes, then good on 'em. No, I play tunes for my own enjoyment, and as an act of sharing with the other tunes players who are playing with me.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Insert quote marks in 1st paragraph.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
We always encourage songs at our session it gives the musicians a break and a chance to go to the bar, toilet, cigarette break etc.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Fudge
Re: Why no songs?
LOL
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
bb - of course it's a sweeping generalisation to say instrumentalists are more tightly strung than their fiddles. That's why I didn't say it. I said TOO MANY of them are. There are some fantastic players here who have no interest in singing. Fair enough. Doesn't mean singing should be excluded 'though.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bc_box_player
Re: Why no songs?
Some bloody codswallop spoken here.
Singing is as much a part of the tradition as the tunes. It seems to me that the problem some of ye have is that you are choosing the wrong venues where loads of drunken yobs 'sing'.
At many of our sessions one of the musicians will usually call for a song if there is a decent singer about.
The song is not an interlude to have a noisy chat but a time for quiet reflection, chance to light up, savour your pint and listen to the words of the song.
At some venues here there might even be a formal Fear an Tí, such as at the Skerries in Newtown Crommelin to ensure the right balance between song and tune.
Indeed, many tunesters are also fine singers who DO understand the 'rules', Wreckin Rea being a case in point.
So, enough of the sweeping negative generalisations and give us a song.
As I roved out one evening fair, by the verdant braes of 'Screen ...........
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by breandan
Re: Why no songs?
Greetings,
I am a little confused with the either one way or not philosophies of some folks surrounding sessions. I am not being critical, not even in a jesting way, as it seems to me that the potential for a bad fiddle, flute, box, whistle, or mandolin player insisting on playing in a session can be as devastating as the potential of a bad singer singing a song in a session.
I understand the fear of having fifty to one hundred drunk folk singing sport song after sport song. That I would suppose has great potential for ending the session straight away, but I don’t understand the grouping of all singing into this scenario as a reason to not allow songs in a session. This is not to say that everyone has to enjoy songs in a session or even permit them if indeed they are the one in charge. After all quality camaraderie entails respect for one another.
I am also a little confused by the notion that all singers are simply looking to show off. There are a great number of very emotionally charged ballads that when sung by a singer skilled in their craft are no less a creative expression, and component of the “Tradition”, than a masterfully rendered set played by a fiddler, flautist, et al.
I cannot speak broadly about the sessions in Ireland as I have only participated in a few by comparison to most involved in this discussion, but those I have participated in have included many finely rendered songs much to the delight of the melody players as well as the rest of the folks. In the NYC area it is a rare occasion that songs are not included in a session.
I, at best, can deliver a respectable rendition of the songs I sing and I say this as I am nearly always asked to give a song when I am in a session. That said, there have been occasions when the Pub has been so loud that hearing one another whilst playing tunes has been difficult if not downright impossible. Then when a song is sung, by myself or another, the folks focus more on the music and tone down the volume of talk and listen to the song. After that the overall noise level goes down as it seems the folks remain more focused on the music, at least for awhile, and we can hear each other playing tunes again. I am of the mind that all participants in a session should offer whatever talents they have for the good of the whole session. What is less valid about a singer earnestly offering their talent for the good of the session then an instrumental melody player doing the same?
I really cannot look upon the tradition as being separate components, the music as one and the craic the other. To me the “Tradition” is the sum of the whole. There have been nights when I have sung a song and when I have gotten up for another whiskey or a trip to pay the rent I have been stopped by someone, especially someone of the generation ahead of me, and told the song that I sang was sung to them by their departed mother, father, uncle or whomever when they were young and still in Ireland. Their faces are so very content and in some cases there has been a small tear in the corner of their eye as they relate their story to me. In my heart and mind these experiences, even as infrequent as they are, are why I play and sing the music. My performing on stage at Carnegie Hall (as if I have a snowball’s chance) to me would not be more moving or deeply satisfying then my having the opportunity to bring such comfort and/or momentary happiness to another person one to one as it were.
Sometimes I must say that some that participate in the discussions here are like the dyed in the wool Republicans and Democrats over here in the US. It seems at times the position of some is that there are no valid philosophies other than their own. To my way of thinking if one simply looks at the extreme ends of any philosophical spectrum they are doing nothing other than missing the 80 to 90 percent of life that transpires in between these ends. I prefer to cast my net to gather the greatest possible spectrum of experiences whilst on my journey. I can highly recommend this as one never knows when their net will turn up a different kind of fish, one that is enjoyed to a much greater extent than those routinely caught.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by ejsant
Re: Why no songs?
How can anyone say that songs and music should be divorced, the human voice is the greatest instrument ever created. But one has to be able to sing, I would be the first to stop someone drunk trying to sing, agreed GAA clubs are not the venues for singing in general. Every singer (and musician) must have a modicum of sense and integrity, for instance if the atmosphere in a pub is of the rowdy kind it is not a goog thing to try and sing a long ballad but a drinking song would go down well and sometimes helps to soften the background noise. These things can't really be generalised. It's a long time since I sang in Belfast but usually in the North songs and tunes were never divorced. I think the problem we have here is the one of "Paid Sessions" the leaders are normally musicians and not inclined to ask for a song probably because they are paid to play music. Surely it is much better to play and sing in a bar where they accept music but don't advertise it, impromptu or organised between friends. Nowadays there are Singers clubs where you won't find an instrument at all, but that to me is going too far in the opposite direction, it's nice to meet fellow songsters but a night of unaccompanied singing can be every bit as boring as a night of 500 reels.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Why no songs?
I've nothing against singers or having the odd song or two in a mainly instrumental session at an *appropriate* moment. As Bren observes, many fine instrumentalists are also excellent singers.
It's not these that annoy me , though. As others have pointed out, many people don't grasp the concept of what a tune session is about. Often, singers are the worst offenders! One terrible woman (this was the first time I met her) came over to us with words to the effect "We're going to have some songs. You musicians aren't going going to have your way all night!" Needless to say, she got a few backs up. Anyway, I continue to meet her at festivals but now she has also taken up the bodhran and will "join" instrumental sessions and start banging away. One time, she brought three of her friends(all armed with bodhrans). Now, that's something else that annoys me about some singers. They realise that the opportunities for singing within a particular session might be limited so they "take part" in another way; eg strumming a guitar, shaking eggs, banging on drums etc. This isn't fair on all the good percussionists and guitarists(I'll admit there are many out there, although some might disagree) let alone the rest of us.
Of course, singers are part of the tradition but they have their own sessions and there are also looser arrangements where you can have a mixture of tunes and songs, although they don't always work. So, why don't they leave us alone? Or to put it differently, why do they feel that they have the right to take part? Of course, it would be every bit as arrogant for musicians to "crash" singing sessions and expect to play tunes all night, although singers tell us we would be welcome on their terms, i.e a short set of tunes when it is our turn. However, with a few exceptions, most musicians prefer to be in music sessions. You'll get some who try to accompany singers unvited. They're a menace too.
Sorry, if I'm sounding a bit intolerant today. It really depends a lot on the circumstances. As I've often said here, it's a case of "going with the flow" along with good manners and common sense. That applies to both singers and musicians.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Why no songs?
I've no objection to 4 songs in three hours. If only they'd be happy with that!
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Why no songs?
in my experience songs (should) have a regenerative effect on the session.musicians get a break, and the sesion continues in a form (the form of singing) while this happens.
Problem is that people (often drunk) who arent in to the music do see it as a window to belt out there own songs.
Also a song generally needs to be requested doesnt it. "give a song there mick" I have a feeling that there is a divide appearing especially amongst the young people, between singers and musicians.hmmmmmmmmmm.......
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by phiddle
Re: Why no songs?
shplargggggggh!
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by phiddle
Re: Why no songs?
There is no divide among the young people around County Down. Many of them both play and sing and it is very much encouraged, especially in the comhaltas groups. And some of the singing is as fine as you'll get anywhere. Cases in point are the Gallaghers and the McCrickards.
As mentioned in an earlier thread, I met up with some fine young musicians from Leeds, Newcastle, etc., at the recent Girvan Festival and several of them were great singers altogether.
All together now .....
Broken hearted I'll wander, broken hearted I'll remain...........
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by breandan
Re: Why no songs?
Dow
Sounds to me like you need a little holiday, counselling, a reality check and a big dose of medication. Tie him down and sing sweet songs into each ear.....By the way, are you Irish? Do you live in Ireland? Or do you actually live in ? Just trying to get the picture here!
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by kiwi
Re: Why no songs?
The Girvan festival is great and you can get everything you want there. No, there's nothing wrong with a bit of a mixture when the time and situation is right.
It's more the attitude of some people who will "descend" on a session and expect to sing(or play for that matter) that irritates me. This particular woman who is highly involved in the TMSA (Traditional Music and Song Association of Scotland--though it might be more accurately desrcibed as TSA when you consider who is involved and some of their attitudes) actually tried to warn us off The Harbour Bar and The Ailsa because it was full of musicians "just playing Irish tunes" all night! Of course, I've been coming to Grivan for over twenty years and didn't need her to tell me where I should go. I know too that you *do* get good singers and songs in these pubs too from the musicians themselves and others who have the manners and patience to wait until its appropriate.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Why no songs?
Oh for god's sake will you listen to what I'm saying. I never said anything about "all singers". I never implied that there was anything non-musical about the human voice. I never said that singing wasn't a part of the tradition. I never said that songs and music should be divorced. I was answering the question as to why some tune players look down their noses at songs. It's because of bad experiences in the past. Sing a song if you like I don't mind - just don't stick your finger in your ear cuz you look like a right prick.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Molloyj, what does it matter whether I'm Irish or not? I play tunes, end of story.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
"Sorry jim, but, balderdash!" ....well, rea, I admire your honesty - and it just goes to show how different sessions are between Southampton and Belfast!
Jim
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Why no songs?
Dow, I wasn't getting at you in particular, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but that last remark was a bit OTT. I have seen musicians play with far stronger grimaces whilst playing music, myself included. I am not known for sticking my finger in my ear, close my eyes sometimes but these things are more to combat the background noise than anything else. I think the days of pretentious folk clubs are long gone or I hope so.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Why no songs?
Dow and bb. I think you should remember that this thread was not posted by a musician. You have to remember that for someone who doesn't understand the music, singing is indeed a welcome break. You have to cut these non musicians some slack, I don't mean give in to them, but atleast try to understand their perspective. Just imagine only being able to bang along to the music, I'd find that a tad tedious
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by ...
Re: Why no songs?
Wow Dow that was a shot across the bow. (could be a song brewing here). Chill out man! Its not that serious Dude. I asked if you were Irish coz your view just doesn't seem to fit in with irish tradition and culture as I know it (thats just a personal perspective OK). Most sessions that I have been to have always included songs as part of the musical repertoire. Indeed many musicians I know also sing. Its not about whether they are good enough to enter Eurovision or Australian Idol, its more about them carrying on a tradition that is a part of a whole musical culture. Actually its quite common in many cultures. And whats more I go to sessions locally that include not only song, but the odd poem and yarn (gasp shock horror). And these people seem to know how far to go, as do teh tune players. So we get a range f expeciences at these sessions. Other times we have straight tune sessiosn (usually by invite). Yes its true, we have a diverse life experience going on here that guarantees a well balanced and often humerous experience of life. But we alweays try to be open minded and not get too wound up about it. Enjoy yourself coz life can be very short.......
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by kiwi
Re: Why no songs?
forfanadldleeeeeoooooo!
Too busy writing to read this thread... thank goodness! I hope you are all enjoying it.
Singing is good.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Eliot
Re: Why no songs?
Much to the annoyance of M.G Dow actually said that I was a VERY GOOD musician, because I only play slow airs, and Dow did say that you had to be very good to play these. So not only am I a bodhran legend, but according to Dow a very good musician. Mind you he hasn't got much right here, so I will take his opinion of my ability with a pinch of salt.
We are now beginning to get a bit of sense on this thread. The idea of having 3 sets of tunes, and then maybe a song, appeals to many. Why does it have to be one or the other in some sessions.
As for GAA boys, a crowd of wimps, hit the biggest one a slap around the head, and the others will behave.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Even worse than those who turn their noses up at the occasional song are the instrumentalists that love to add their "special touch" while someone is singing. There is an art to accompanying a singer that many instrumentalists just don't get--it is not the time to all play the melody in unison, for example! This also happens when someone wants to play a solo aire--aires are not meant to be group affairs. Isn't there a place in sessions for a little solo work now and then? (Is that a good windup for more discussion?)
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Why no songs?
Whether you're a singer, tune player, or punter -- the bottom line is common decency and good manners. Anyone is capable of spoiling a session.
The good singers are usually in the pub with the intent of hanging around, meeting up with friends and listening to some music. If they happen to play an instrument as well -- the might join in with the tunes. The bad singers are usually the ones who might try a coup d'étate because they aren't asked to sing and are either insecure or delusional about their abilities. If a session is haunted by the latter, folks might be inclined to take drastic measures and exclude singing. When this happens -- it's a sad day for the music.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
That last remark might be easier to put into practice now. 1976 in the Bellaghy GAA club, our group were playing and a feller sitting near the stage requested "The men behind the wire" Our lead singer said 3 times that it wasn't in our repertoire but we would nontheless try it before the night was out just to be polite. The gent then walked up to the stage, pulled a gun out of his jacket and said "Sing the men behind the wire", what would you have done?
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Why no songs?
Two replies got posted while I was typing that.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Why no songs?
"Two replies got posted while I was typing that."
I hate when that happens.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
"The gent then walked up to the stage, pulled a gun out of his jacket and said "Sing the men behind the wire", what would you have done?"
Soiled my pants probably.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
In fact we never got to sing the ditty because 2 plucky barmen jumped on the guy and escorted him out, minus gun, which disappeared rapidly.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Why no songs?
"BY A LONELY PROSON WALL, I HEARD............."
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by phiddle
Re: Why no songs?
When I got into "trouble" in Bellaghy for refusing to sing "chucky" songs, a man came up to threaten me. I said "I'm from Andytown, f###k off". Which he promptly did.
There is even elitism in gunmen.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
If I come across as a bit het up, try and see it from my perspective for a moment. I play music a lot for the sheer enjoyment of it. I love getting together for a session. Unfortunately, I have only a small "window" of 3 hours a week to have tunes with my mates, and that's not enough as it is. It means there's pretty much only time to whip out your favourite few reels and jigs in a few short sets. Hardly enough time to get into a polka or hornpipe vibe or anything like that, even. So with that in mind, we don't want some drunken tosspot constantly requesting songs or trying to give us yet another out-of-tune rendition of the Wild Rover. If an accomplished singer wants to give us a song during a break in the tunes, fine, but they have to understand how they fit into the session, that's all.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Are you sitting comfortably?, then I'll begin.
Once upon a time .... all sessions were singers sessions. Traditional song clubs vetted what instruments you could bring in - guitar compulsary, anglo OK, accordion not ok, bodhran? what's that - no one had seen one before.
Other clubs would not allow trad - it had to be political (feminism was unheard of).
Thank God we have moved on since the 1970s.
Personally, I feel too many hack-singers can only sing after alcohol. Tell them their turn to sing is 8.30pm and they will decline. Tell them to sing with the book shut - ha ha ha ha.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Why no songs?
Or put it another way.. I think that a good session achieves a certain balance and momentum after a time, where the playing of one tune will remind other musicians of other tunes in their repertoire and new tunes get pulled out. The tunes start to flow, and the onus gets passed from person to person, and the musos achieve a kind of rapport where one person is almost mind-reading another. It's such a delicate balance, and a difficult headspace to get into. A lot of people don't understand that this goes on, and they steamroller over the top of it and disrupt the flow. Singers come to mind as being particularly good at the steamrollering.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
If what you're talking about here is a session between like minded musicians that get together for a few tunes once a week , then I couldn't agree more. If some of the musicians are paid, then what we're talking about is entertainment, and surely the paying (or not) public have a right to ask for a song or anything else for that matter.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Why no songs?
"If some of the musicians are paid, then what we're talking about is entertainment, and surely the paying (or not) public have a right to ask for a song or anything else for that matter."
Unless they're being paid to run a session and enjoy it for whatever the musicians define a "session" to be. If their definition doesn't include fulfilling what they might consider to be unreasonable requests -- it's their prerogative.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
Agreed, but how many landlords are genuinely interested by the music and how many are interested in bums on seats?
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Why no songs?
"bums on seats"
That's the paradox. If you're lucky -- the publican understands and appreciates what a "session" is. That's the paradox. If you're lucky -- the publican understands and appreciates what a "session" is. If the publican puts bad behavior above a good session for the sake of the till -- it's time to relocate the session.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
I think in the end that's what I like about living away from home,
The sessions here are calm, all sorts of live music can be enjoyed in relative quiet. whether it be music and/or song, you don't seem to get all the carryings on, judging by what has been said in several of these discussions. It's true, even years ago we had to move from pub to pub if the players and the proprieters had some kind of altercation but other landlords would welcome them with open arms.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Why no songs?
Things are different in America. I think singing interesting or funny lyrics are great, especially if it is an older, historic tune. Sing alongs are great also. However, sessions are different here in many locations. I have even heard short history lessons on the tunes and Gaelic sing alongs.
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Why no songs?
I'm enjoying the polarisation in this thread. It really is sorting the difference out between music and entertainment. Or should I put it more plainly, the difference between those who play for their own enjoyment, and those who play for the gratification of the eedjits in the bar.
There were a couple of threads earlier about the beauty of the "come all ye" in a traditional village session. This is a completly different discussion from what Dow refers to as his "3 hours".
I agree with with Dow. It's the musician' s time. It's our time. Sod anyone who asumes that we are there to impress. Sod anyone who, by their ignorance, is bored by us. Sod the hangers on. But, most importantly, sod the hangers on who think they know better
# Posted on May 15th 2005 by ...
Re: Why no songs?
Can't help but wonder at how many great tunes and songs could have been played, written, shared and learned in the time that has been taken up by sh*t fighting over personal preferences in session content.
Got priorities?
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by late in the evening
Re: Why no songs?
"The sessions here are calm, all sorts of live music can be enjoyed in relative quiet. whether it be music and/or song, you don't seem to get all the carryings on."
From what I've observed this isn't the case. Here in the States the likely hood of sessions having to tolerate bad behavior with clueless publicans allowing it to happen, is far greater. (But not in our local.) On my trips to Ireland, (always in the off season,) I've found mostly very congenial sessions with edified publicans and good manners from punters and musicians alike.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
Why can the music facists not do two things at once?
Would it not be possible to play for one's own enjoyment, and get paid and do the odd request. I realise M.G would not "enjoy" the requests, but I am harbouring doubts as to whether the facists enjoy playing at all, so many rules, do's and don'ts, and the seriousness of it all, must make it very stressful.
It is possible to accommodate both worlds. It doesn't always have to be a battle to preserve the "sacredness" of the music.
If you really want to play with friends, and interact from a purely musical viewpoint, well a pub is the last place you want to be. We used to have some great nights in a mate's kitchen, a few drinks and smokes, and incredible music, just playing around.
In short, the facists are compromising the "purity" of the music, and a real chance to interact, by entering noisy establishments.
Having already compromised, why not a few songs?
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Fascists, fascists, facists, fascists, fascists, facists, fascists, fascists.
That's better. My typing is improving.
Can't be great at everything.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Its a sad thing to say, but we dont really have much of a choice of venue's to play here in Sydney. Sounds unbelievable doesnt it - 4.5 million people and we have one session a week in a pub that is full of young GAA lads singing 'Fields of Athenry'. But - the owners like us and *want* us around. Now - in my short session life that is the first experience Ive had where the publicans actually *like* the tunes and craic.
So - yes - the venue might not be the greatest. But I challenge anyone - to come to Sydney and find me a better one. I will be waiting with bated breath.
PS - Jamie - stop slagging my friend Dow would you
PS - My dad was a great singer - I love a good song as much as the next person - I grew out in a house full to the brim with songs and singing. I've said it before and I'll say it again - this is not about not liking singers, its merely not always possible to have singing at sessions. I wish we had another supportive place to play here - but we dont. And yes - we;ve tried. Seems we spend all our time looking for better places to play - but nothing ever comes up, or we start a new session and its folded 2 months later because we arent make money for the bar - even if they arent paying us!!!
Anyhow Bliss, did this thread wind us all up as much as you were hoping!??
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Just calling my lawyers.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Here here the Beebster!
(the artist formally known as housemate)
For all you'ze heads who think we should all be lovey-dovey and ask why we can't all just get along:
Just try going into a singing session (of which there are heaps more of in Sydney than tune sessions) and starting up a tune.. you'd last about a minute and a half before twelve guys with more beard than sense'd kick the #@$#$ out of you.
tune-sessions-for-tune-heads (with the occasional tastefull, non-athenry-dannyboy, song) and singing sessions for people with no taste.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by SirNose
Re: Why no songs?
Yes exactly. Its all very well for people on the board to be all like, well why dont you move somewhere else quiter etc. Easier said that done, any how - we have a big Aussie Folk movement here - its different from anything you guys have seen and there are loads more of them than there are of us. And its true what SirNose says- if we started a tune in their Singing sessions we'd be in big trouble.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Jack, I'm sorry, I was talking about France. The last time I was in Ireland was for two singing weekends and a few days up around Teelin in Donegal where we made our own session with old friends, nice few days it was too. We were given the use of Frank Cassidy's old house..... if only the walls could talk.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Why no songs?
"if only the walls could talk."
Good thing they can't -- they'd probably talk over the music.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
Sessions, pubs, people, they all go together. Far be it from me to tell anyone how to run a session, but get a life some of you guys. If you really want musical masturbation, then do it behind closed doors!
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Wotkey
Re: Why no songs?
All together now
"Da fields of Athenryyyyyyyy - Oh Baby let the free birds fly'
Just beautiful. Luckily *some* of us live in Northern Ireland.........one can always dream I spose.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Erm, isn't forcing everyone in a session to stop playing together just so they can here you sing a bloody song the ultimate act of musical masterbation?
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by SirNose
Re: Why no songs?
in fact, i completely agree with Wotkey, we have a DUTY to force all singers to only sing behind closed doors in the privacy of their (preferably double bricked-double glazed-sound proofed) homes.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by SirNose
Re: Why no songs?
"some of you guys" - wotkey
Could you be a little more specific please?
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
heehee - okay SirNose - what side of the Coffin did you get up on this morning?
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Um - I think he means you Jack - sorry to break it to you
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
"Why, where, when and how did songs manage to get practically banned from ITM sessions."
"Sessions, pubs, people, they all go together. Far be it from me to tell anyone how to run a session, but get a life some of you guys. If you really want musical masturbation, then do it behind closed doors!"
I rarely get to the session bb and Dow refer to, but have actually managed it twice in the last few weeks. Time before last, the 3pm-6pm session was abandoned at 5pm. Yesterday, it was down tools and just give up at 4.20pm. It's a tiny pub and I think it took me 15 mins to get up, fight to the restroom, fight to the back bar, get ignored there by the barman, fight to the front bar, get a drink and fight back to my place. There were 13 musos and I don't think any of us could hear the player next to us.
No one here that I know of is agin a good song delivered well with timing sensitive to the flow of the session. But if you opened the floodgates in this pub, I doubt you'd get your session back till the last drunk had run out of breath. Endov. I can well understand the apprehension that a song at this session would trigger an avalanche. It’s a perfectly simple survival strategy at this particular tune session, and that's all bb and Dow are saying, seems to me. If conditions were different, I don't doubt that songs would be more welcome. But things are as they are, and I think it's reasonable that songs are not encouraged.
No one here in Sydney scene that I've met so far needs to chill out or get a life, I can assure you.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Tish
Re: Why no songs?
Tish, who are you to tell me that i don't need to get a life!!!@! ;o)
(some sound words.. but where were you on Saterday? 'Twas a lovely session, and it even had a nice balance of songs and tunes (he says completely ignoring the irony of it all))
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by SirNose
Re: Why no songs?
Terribly sorry, Yer Honour
Saturday, Cinderella was sitting by the firepl- actually I mean the computer at work writing test procedures that need to be finished before I can think about the work I'm going to be doing during my (cross fingers!) upcoming month in London, yippee! And then I had to hightail it home to go do a gig. Bummer.
(One of the reasons I know you lot don't need to get a life is that I know perfectly well there were songs as well as tunes on Saturday.)
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Tish
Re: Why no songs?
Yes, but i fervently refused to enjoy them!!
every time I found myself even slightly appreciating the vocal talents of my session mates i pinched my self on the leg. hard.
(excuse noted but not yet approved)
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by SirNose
Re: Why no songs?
Beebs was singing along in the choruses, did you see her? Beebs I can't believe you did that you total traitor - call yourself a tunie. For a moment you made me want to take up skydiving
So am I now a musical fascist? Better than being a musical limpwrist like Bodhran Bliss. If you came to our session and were that accommodating, you wouldn't get a chance to whack your bodhran even like *once* for fear of offending someone. Hmm actually maybe that's a good thing...
Haha one thing crossed my mind when I was reading this thread today: all the people who call tunes "songs" are reading this going "WTF I don't geddit". Hahaha.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Dow, Skydiving'd be a great thing for you. At least then it wouldn't just be your musical ability that's in free fall.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by SirNose
Re: Why no songs?
SirNose we need to take you to the vets to get those claws trimmed.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Dow
Your medication kicked in there for a wee while or so it seemed , then the angry Dow came out again. Tsk Tsk. You were doing so well there for a couple of threads. Back to counselling for you laddie. I agree with Ben, Skydiving sounds like a really good option. Its something you get to do all by yourself without anyone singing any songs to you at all.
Bridie, Wots your story? Singing in a session? Thats great and shows how little respect you have obviously for Dow's somewhat angry and tetchy views. Let Dow fight his own fights, sink his own boat, sing his own songs eh!
And Dow, as for a bodhran player having a limp wrist, don't bouzouki players have a bit of limp wrist themselves when playing (especially with themselves!)
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by kiwi
Re: Why no songs?
As a singer you really have to be able to judge how sessions are going.
In my regular session ( unfortunately now in hibernation after the departure of one of the main players ( possibly permanently, possibly not)) I would have to judge how the flow was going. Sometimes its was obvious that they were all upfor it that night and I might go to the end of the night with only one song. Othertimes there would be sort of natural breaks , other times they would want me to sing a particular song - as the piper would be able to whip out the B flat whistle and somtime because I knew them well I would sing regardless. I like to think a lot of the time I added to the music but I was never the main focus of the session. The main reason I went to these sessions was to sit and listen to wonderful musicians and it gave me a bit of a buzz that they appreciated it when I sang. I do quite a lot of song sessions and folk clubs but I prefer music sessions with the occasional song.
Saying that when I travel I do go into sessions and try and get a song and almost all are very welcoming. Some sessions are difficult to sing in given the noise in the pub. For example I was in Sandy Bells when the rugby was on and tried to sing during a break in the session but I couln't hear myself - far less anyone else hear me. The fellow sat beside me was most comlimentary thought but I think If I had known who he was I wouldn't have dared open my mouth to sing.
To sum up - us singers in music sessions - good - provided we know what we're doing!
J
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by jfother
Re: Why no songs?
Who me? Angry? No way - I'm just giving as good as I get from Bodhran Bliss in the knowledge that he's an even bigger wind-up merchant than me... I... am, and so won't run away all upset and tearful. Actually I thought Beebs looked bless, singing her little heart out. I even found myself doing as SirNose did - pinching myself (hard) whenever I felt myself beginning to appreciate the songs
Oh what a relief though, when we could finally start up the reels again, before my heart rate slowed so much I was about to go into hibernation.
Judy if you're reading this you know I'm only kidding. I'll embrace you again next session to show you how I truly feel, and I'll get those chords right next time.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
jfother,
It's nice to hear a singer's viewpoint. You have more or less hit the nail on the head. If everyone had your attitude, there would be no problem or any need for argument. Of course, there's nothing wrong with a few songs but you have to "judge the flow", as you say, in an instrumental session.
Everything you say is fine by me.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Why no songs?
Molloyj, you might have put something in your profile so I'd remember who you were! Now, you know me - I'm pretty laid back really. I was so uptight because I'd just come away from a Durty's session last night and was ready to kill someone, so I ended up killing an imaginary singer!
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Thanks JohnJ, Always nice to have someone agreeing with me. Would be happy to dorp in on your sessions if I'm passing. Where are you based ?
J
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by jfother
Re: Why no songs?
Just outside Edinburgh and I know Sandy Bells well. I should go there more often but my repertoire is probably still too Scottish. However, I like to go there on Sunday afternoons from time to time and visit different sessions in the area. There's quite a good choice in Edinburgh and round about.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Why no songs?
Fisherrow. Oh my god what a memory eh.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Don't think I can justify another trip up to Edinburgh this year - maybe if all the house moving stuff goes smoothly I might make it up at the begining of the winter - meet a few friends, Christmas shop etc. Sunday at Sandy Bells sound good - should be quieter than Friday night. Thought about going then in Feb but I had relatives to go and visit.
J
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by jfother
Re: Why no songs?
Dow - what I would like to know is, what happened? You were so quiet for so long. Just hiding away in the Tunes section as the Tune Policeman. Now all of a sudden you are back firing on all 8 cylinders. Have you been re-invented or is it just a touch of mania at the thought of Beebs leaving soon.
As for songs I'm all with you, because I've been to too many sessions that were killed by song intrusion. But I won't go into the details here as it's too parochial and has to do with the fact that there isn't enough good session time in the week.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Donough
Re: Why no songs?
We had a very nice session tonight. *hic* Afterwards myself and John had a few shots of *hic* whis-key. I won't be able to comment any further *hic* tonight *hic.* sorry... g'night.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
Ok so, erm, *anyway*... [Donough, do you know that drunk tramp who just came over and made weird grunting noises while we were trying to have a conversation?]
I'm thinking of giving up my job as a tune policeman. There's too much crime these days for me to cope with all on me own.
Anyway Donough thanks for sticking up for me. It's good to know there are other "musical fascists" around besides Beebs and SirNose.
As for why I'm firing on all 8 cylinders - there's an element of truth in what you say. I'm just excited about Beebs leaving
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Hi jfother & JohnJ - I'm in full agreement with you both - that's how singing songs & playing tunes can work perfectly well together. Nice to hear of an eminently sensible approach to the matter.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Why no songs?
Awwww, Dow, don't I rate as a musical fascist too after stickin' up fer you guys an' all?
I can understand the desire to kill, after Sunday's session! I just listen, I don't play hardly at all, at all, but I invest as much time getting there and home again as the length of time the session is supposed to run for, and getting time on a Sunday/weekend where I can get away is rare. Its disappointing to have it steamrollered, even for little ole me, and I don't have as much invested in it as youse lot wot can actually play.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Tish
Re: Why no songs?
Nothing like a good, controversial topic, eh? I thought I'd mention that when I was last in Sligo, they had a song session pub (I think it was O'Connell's or Connors maybe) a couple of blocks from the Furies, the famous session pub. I guess in a city like that, it's a luxury to have two places to use for live Irish music sessions. The nice thing also about the singing session was the same kind general etiquette prevailed, where everyone got a chance to pick a song and only if you knew the backing or words, or could fake your way adaquately did others join in. It was courteous, respectful and fun. It was also larger, cleaner and less smokey than the Furies at the time. B/T/W - we hosted Cathy Ryan here in Atlanta for the first time at Eddies last night. She was great and it was a nice mix of songs and tunes. She had a great guitar/bouzouki guy and very good fiddler with her. It was a sellout too.
-M
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by miguel404
Re: Why no songs?
I gave up reading this halfway through as it's going round in circles.
it seems to me that there are basically two camps here of essentially the same mind: those that have the luxury of some good singers at their session and who enjoy the odd song in the mix and those who don't have the luxury of good singers but who wouldn't mind having them around. Does that make sense?
I think all sessions benefit in some way from having a song or three but getting the mix right for everyone is a tightrope act.
Let's face it; Dow and bb would probably love to have Niamh Parsons or someone of that ilk to do a few numbers now and again, and Breandan and BB would probably give short shrift to some Plastic Chuckies singing "Say hello to the Provos".
Ah well, it's the bad sessions that make the good ones brilliant.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Why no songs?
I am upset and tearful.
I realise that some of you have difficulties, and your weekly session might be precious, but there are many sessions lasting 3 hours or so with just tune, after tune, after tune. Nothing morally wrong with that, but what happens if Sean Keane is there and would like to sing a song. Is he allowed to?
And as for having trouble with punters. Please, having survived numerous "Bellaghy" incidents, paid a visit by the other sides gunmen for playing "Pan-Nationalist" music, not to mention a Russian anti-tank rocket coming through the pub window one night, well we have all had troubles, and dealt with them. Sometimes I wonder if the bodhran is to blame. Surely not.
I merely ask for compromise. If I had said "should fiddle players be allowed" would there have been the same rush to condemn "people who want to hog the session, sounding like a cat being strangled". I doubt it, yet these people exist.
Why must everyone on this site, well not everyone but certainly the Oz mafia, why do you always equte a situation with the worst possible scenario.
But help is at hand. Buy a few bodhrans and go round to the singers clubs with them. If they are a s fascist as the rest of you, well they will all go home and you can play to your heart's content.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Speaking from your personal experience again, Bliss?
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
No compromise. All singers must be decapitated. Bliss you don't even know just how extreme we Aussies are. We even wear a uniform to our sessions.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
FREE THE TUNIES!
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Why can't we all just get along?
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Why no songs?
Because some of us understand irony and some of us don't
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Tough Aussies, like the "crying" cricket captain Kim Hughes? Even the GAA men thrashed the Aussie rules wimps this year, and imagine letting yourselves get slapped about by the English rugby team. Don't make me laugh.
But just to show what a good guy I really am, more advice. Get a virtuoso bodhran player, and the noisy crowd will soon be reduced to whispering about him/her in awe.
Speaking from experience, Jack.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bodhran bliss
And what color is the sky in your world, Bliss?
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
There is a pink moon.
By the way, when I ask a serious question on a thread, why do people assume I am winding up? This has been happening a lot.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Bliss, if you ever were serious, we would all laugh!
Pink moon, huh? Can I have what you smoke?
Jim
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Why no songs?
...and anyway, your threads get more clicks than mine do!
Jim
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Why no songs?
Pink Moon is Nick Drake album, as I am sure you were aware Jim.
The smoke here is not great by the way, a limited choice.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Why songs?
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Why no songs?
That's a very good question. Wish I had thought of that.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Conan - you are right that this thread is going round and round, but it's hilarious. You guys crack me up. And Bodhran Bliss - being serious...Yeah right! Like that'd ever happen!
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Is Dow trying to find out who Kim Hughes was?
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Jack, we've since beat the English team in Union (as has every other team under the sun - up Wales!)
Anyhow - who cares if we lose some made up game of Union/GAA. I mean - its not like its a *real* sport or anything like that.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
"Why must everyone on this site, well not everyone but certainly the Oz mafia, why do you always equte a situation with the worst possible scenario."
BB (BB, not bb!), if you're serious about that statement, then we can't have haven't painted a clear enough picture for you!
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Tish
Re: Why no songs?
Maybe we equate the situation with the worst possible scenario because we live it......ever time we try and play some tunes. sniff...snuffle.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
"BB (BB, not bb!)"
Just call him Blisster.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
Hey Dow - you and I are in the 'Oz Mafia' - that is soooo cool!
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
Betterer than the Glee Club, eh wot?
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Tish
Re: Why no songs?
Does that make me an Ahsosh*t member?
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Donough
Re: Why no songs?
Wow certain letter sequences aren't allowed even when inside other words. Clever software from our overseer.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Donough
Re: Why no songs?
Sigh. "haven't" OR can't have" - delete that which does not apply etc.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Tish
Re: Why no songs?
I saw it written and I saw it say,
Pink spooooons are on their way,
None of youuuu stand so tall,
Pink spooooons gonna get you all,
And it's pink spoons,
Yeeeeah, pink spoons,
Pink, pink, pink, pink,
Pink spoons.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Dow...what tha???!!!
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bb
Re: Why no songs?
It's alright bb, I know *exactly* what he's on about. Don't worry - he's OK.
Twitch. Twitch. Mwhuhahahahaha
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Tish
Re: Why no songs?
Thats great Dow just chop off their heads. God you must be simple mate! perhaps you need something else chopped off so people like you can't procreate. Dow, I seriously think you are on the wrong medication. Perhaps you should get back in your box now! Just think about how beautiful it would be, in a wee break in the tunes to hear the gentle refrain:
Somewheeeeeeere.......under the rainbow.........etc
OK its not quite trad but it is a beautiful song dont you think.
You have been really well behaved for a time (as someone mentioned the tune policeman was being quite quiet). Just for everyone elses benefit ,lately the Australian federal government has increased the price of all prescription drugs and I guess Dow is just another victim of this right wing political tyranny. These drugs do not come for a song. You have to play the tune to get your medication. Its deep I know but Dow understands this. The system here has got so bad that Dow is now posting songs in this discussion just to get the right medication. Has he been manipulating all of us? Come on baby light my fire......
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by kiwi
Re: Why no songs?
Stands up, clears throat, hushes bar:
Old (i.e written in the 1960s) Australian song:
"Never trust a man who doesn't drink
Though he's less likely to throw up in your sink
For I'd rather be half plastered
Than a blue-nosed wowser bastard
So never trust a man who doesn't drink"
Dodges missiles, goes to loo.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Bren
Re: Why no songs?
Molloyj - see you said it yourself! Tunes are obviously more valuable than songs. Also I don't think you need to worry about chopping my bits and pieces off - the gene for "good taste in music" is a recessive one anyway. Funny you should mention about me and my drugs. The other day a man accused me of being a drug dealer and corrupting all the little children. He told me I would burn in the fires of hell.
Just made the mistake of listening to the Nick Drake album again after a long time of not hearing it. Now I feel completely numb and unable to do anything...
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Oh, I sooh can't believe you just said that but, yeah but, no but, Only five leaves left but!
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Why no songs?
Shut up I ain't never n'even done nuthin or nuthin. Have you been talkin to Bridie? Don't listen to her, she plays with her own poo.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Yep, Humphrey Go-Kart also said : "I never trust any b*stard who doesn't drink." I think.
Jim
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Why no songs?
My goodness me - what are all youse guys on?
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Donough
Re: Why no songs?
Could be worse Dow; she could be playing with yours
:/
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Why no songs?
As an aspiring mental health professional, I'd like y'all to know I've enjoyed this thread immensely.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by TaoCat
Re: Why no songs?
No you haven't.
Jim
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Why no songs?
This isn't the argument room... it's 2 doors down.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
Who said that?
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Jode
Re: Why no songs?
I was about to forgive Dow everything for singing "Pink Moon" then he says Nick Drake leaves him numb. That's like those fools who say Leonard Cohen is depressing. Drake, Cohen and others of the ilk are inspiring, it is all in the words. They give you a lift.
Someone mentioned "Somewhere over the Rainbow" which we have done, now doing "Fields of Gold" and Dylan's "To make you feel my love". Not very traditional but they do make a nice contrast to the evening, after 4 sets of tunes. Which is right back to the start. At least we are now talking about songs.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
And I nearly forgive John J for his devotion to M.G for having "Five Leaves Left". Now that is good.
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
For me instrumental music and songs are two completely different things. I love to play and listen reels, jigs, ect... but songs just bore me to the extreme.
I don't like for instance when I'm listening to a cd and after a bunch of instrumental sets there comes a song, it destroys the whole mood for me.
If I wanted songs then I would buy a cd of songs.
To me traditional instrumental music and traditional songs are two different kinds of music.
But this is only me, ok?
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Why no songs?
And if it's not OK?
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
Blisster, if you see the Drake album as being that simple, then fair enough. I personally don't find all of it to be uplifting. Some of it is, but some of it's downright depressing. There's so much there that I find after listening to it that I don't know whether to be really happy or really sad. So I just feel numb.
# Posted on May 18th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
To pick up on Jack's point earlier, what's this about songs getting banned anyway? Is there an anti-song campaign group I can join?
# Posted on May 18th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
"I don't like for instance when I'm listening to a cd and after a bunch of instrumental sets there comes a song, it destroys the whole mood for me." - McGregor
I remember thinking that once. I can't remember when, but I think I did. I think it was way before CDs were invented.
# Posted on May 18th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Why no songs?
Bodhran Bliss: If it's not ok then you can F.....
# Posted on May 18th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Why no songs?
...ind a different session where you're happier.
# Posted on May 18th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Why no songs?
Exactly what I was going to say. Thanks.
# Posted on May 18th 2005 by Beheader
Re: Why no songs?
Charming, here did you read about that poor bodhran player washed ashore in Belfast...............
# Posted on May 18th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Why no songs?
One decent singer is worth ten instru mentalists in a session, just don't ask me to sing . . .
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by Fiddle Fancier
Re: Why no songs?
"One decent singer is worth ten instru mentalists in a session"
Ye, maybe in YOUR session. Which says a lot about the "mentalists" who frequent it.
# Posted on May 21st 2005 by Beheader
Re: Why no songs?
I am both a singer and instrumentalist. I'm really tired of people getting on their high horse and proclaiming what they think is a tradition of tunes only. Long before people got into circles and played reel after reel and jig after jig, neighbors and families gathered together to make MUSIC with voices. That is a longer tradition than pubs filled with tune players (and I do enjoy our local session in a pub with tunes & songs.)
Read a bit of history, you tune snobs:
http://www.standingstones.com/session.html
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by aliceflynn
Re: Why no songs?
Who was talking about tradition? All I'm saying is that I, and other people, like the tunes and don't like the songs. They are two different things. Simple as that.
# Posted on May 22nd 2005 by Beheader