Is ITM and STM (Scottish) a current fad that will decrease in the future? Will it gain in popularity? Will it become part of a more international traditional music movement? Will it continue, but the style of music change more toward ornamentation and studio styles? Will it become more "mainstream" in some form?
I think the ITM scene will stay exactly the same as it is now for quite a while. There will always be people who will experiment with techniques and equipment that will help them sound like what they envision to be the authentic style/sound (the purist). There will always be the people who will experiment with new, modern techniques and equipment. There will always be an ITM scene, but ITM will never become a phenomenon in USA or probably anyplace else in the world. But there are people like us who will never let the idea of ITM die. The ITM scene will be just as it is for a long time.
Probably, but not among those who would have liked it anyway -- Riverdance and the other shows certainly drove attendance up at our stepdancing school. Maybe, but popularity often just breeds banality and new age music. It's always been part of the traditional music movements, because the Irish got everywhere. Yes, but not among the purists, which is what we need them for. No more than it has already, or hadn't you noticed this stuff and its influence showing up in pop music all over the place?
For every move toward ecumenism there's another counterbalancing one toward fundamentalism.
I'd say the last big wave of popularity peaked about 5 years ago and started to recede, leaving behind many aspirant players who will get another wave rolling as they start to step out a bit and popular musicians go through another phase of "getting back to their roots"
"It's always been part of the traditional music movements, because the Irish got everywhere. . . or hadn't you noticed this stuff and its influence showing up in pop music all over the place?"
Exactly. The very structure of popular song, with rhyming verse in a verse: chorus: verse : chorus structure is essentially Irish in derivation. You can't take the Irish out of popular music. Irish music is popular music after all, as opposed to "art" music. It's been mainstream for hundreds of years.
"The ITM scene will be just as it is for a long time. "
If by this you mean "ever changing" I'd agree. The Irish Traditional Music "scene" is rather different now that it was 10 years ago, which is rather different than it was ten years before that. Things that are considered "traditional" now often wouldn't even have been recognized only 50 or 60 years ago, well within the lifetimes of current active musicians.
And I don't find anything wrong with this, per se. I'm perfectly comfortable being a "purist" one moment and an "experimentalist" the next. The music we consider "tradtitional" now was first invented by the experimentalists.
I do find it interesting, however, that the surest way to be accused of being "nontraditional" by certain "purists" is to do your best to do things exactly as they were done "back in the day" (whenever the "day" was), because the "tradition" has changed so much that even many "purists" can't even recognize the tradition.
Hence the need when speaking of tradition to ask "whose tradition, where and when?" Every generation starts a new tradition, and likely modifies it several times before they die.
"Celtic" music is a fad. It will fade, although as with many fads it may, in the long run, develop its own tradition, as did the fad of Irish fiddle dance music, which will go on, and on, and on. . . .
The fact that a few bars of traditional music can be heard on some advertsing campaigns on television and radio is proof that's it's already hit its peak.
It's downhill from the peak, and there's no telling where it might stop.
I'm sure that back in the 1930s / 1940s / 1950s they thought it would always be around, but it came close to dying out.
With so many other music types out there, and the ability to get certain genres of music to a mass audience so quickly means that the listening public will have a great deal of "stuff" thrown at them, in order to get their attention.
In the United State, Irish music peaked when Riverdance peaked. Just as well. Commercial success brings pressure for more commercial success, from both the labels and from radio. To quote Pete Townsend, "music must change". But it should happen at its own pace and not be forced to be different simply because it sounds too much like what was playing on the radio three months ago.
For better or worse, Bluegrass is still relatively unchanged from what Bill Monroe started 60 years ago. If it had became wildly popular, there would be commercial pressure to change it to make it even more popular; to water it down. Look what happened to country music, which bears no resemblance to what Hank Williams did 50 years ago, let alone what the Carter Family did in the 1920's.
As an aside, I find it both humorous and tragic that in the early 70's, country radio wouldn't play bands like Poco and Pure Prairie League because they sounded to close to rock and now they don't play them because they sound too country. Go figure....
Re: country radio stations not playing 'Poco' and 'PPL'...
You've got that right. Back in the 50s, if a band showed up at the Grand Ole Opry with a set of drums, they'd have never been allowed on stage.
And look what's happened since.... gone is the mandolin player as providing the beat/percussion... ELECTRIC guitars are now the standard, rather than the classic pedal steel.
Things changed, and rather quickly, too. Some for good, some not.
I don't think of ITM in terms of its popularity. The true direction of ITM has more to do with its state and not the spin-offs. I think it was threatened in the 40s and 50s, just as other country’s traditional music forms were when mass media appeared on the scene. But it rebounded in Ireland and elsewhere when people rediscovered what was displaced.
It seems that the music is in no such danger today based on what I've seen in Ireland, and the global popularity doesn't necessarily affect it one way or the other. I don't think Irish people rediscovered ITM because they saw people in other parts of the world getting involved. You will find Irish nationals here and there who were inspired because of what they observed while visiting elsewhere, but I don't think they really had any effect on the overall resurgence and strength of ITM back home.
It's heading for trouble with attempts to introduce aparteid for bodhran players on this site.
Aside from that, ITM has grown massively in twenty odd years or so. It is now very popular throughout Europe, with the possible exception of Ireland, and is popular in North America, Oz, South Africa and Yorkshire. It will remain so, as long as we enjoy the music and don't introduce too many session "rules" and things of that ilk.
But do not fool yourselves, it is not just the tunes, songs and airs are very important in spreading the music. The fact that every film/movie now has haunting airs, Riverdance et al, Christy Moore et al, these have all added to the popularity by making people go in search of more, eventually discovering what purists call the "real" thing.
If you include the songs as well, ITM and "folk" music will always be popular, especially if you combine the two.
I'd have to disagree with some of the views expressed here that trad has reached a peak with Riverdance and its likes and is now destined to decline. We've always had phenomenon such as Riverdance (Horslips in the seventies is just one example to come to mind) but I don't believe this has anything to do the "real" trad scene which was there before and which will continue into the future. Examples of this stretch from the music of Patsy Touhy through the Sligo greats (Morrison and Coleman), the Sliabh Luachra giants (Tom Billy Murphy, Padraig O'Keefe, Denis Murphy, etc) and more recently Joe Cooley, Willie Clancy to the musicians of today (Tommy Peoples, Tony McMahon, Noel Hill, etc). This music is played by far more young musicians today than ever before - just visit any Fleadh Cheoil or consider the 3,500 young people who sat the SCT traditional music exams in Ireland last year alone.
As for sessions abroad, this site says it all with contributions from Tokyo to Perth, all parts of the American continent not to mention the UK and Ireland itself. Overall I don't think the state of Irish music has ever been better.
"It will remain so, as long as we enjoy the music and don't introduce too many session "rules" and things of that ilk." - Blisster
You live in Ireland, Bliss, "rules" aren't as important from what I've observed there. Why? Because people grew up with good examples of what a session is to influence them. The odds of people behaving poorly increases in places where the concept of a session is so murky. In places outside and far away from Ireland a session seems more like a "jam" and people get carried away with what that means. If you don't introduce some guidlines it just becomes another Deadhead do-your-own-thang bongo jam. That becomes a threat to ITM for people in those places who would like to simply get together for a tune at the pub.
i disagree with Tunes! with 'it's downhill from the peak' and 'came close to dying out' when there's no real evidence, in my book, of either of these happening, or ever happening . . .
except for an anthem-like riff (like 'smoke on the water') that may be lifted from a trad tune in an expensive future ad on tv
Well, everything changes, everything stays the same. Probably there will always be people playing tunes in pubs and commercial interests will always sample occasionally. Perhaps it might be interesting to consider the future of live music at all - playing any instrument, in any musical genre, is a minority activity, more so in public, and most people seem content to be passively "entertained" in terms of their musical tastes, rather than actively participate. What do you think?
Since the dawn of digital recording, I’ve been wondering if there’ll come a day when the ease of copying and distributing takes so much profit out of the recording industry that the age of superstars comes to an end and the public actually starts to rely on local live music. Could that happen? Would it be a bad thing?
Anyone concerned about changes of direction? I get to talk to teenagers discovering their Irish and Scottish roots and getting started into music. For a lot of them, this means bands like Flogging Molly or the Wicked Tinkers.
But Michael, that has no relevance really to the direction of ITM. If the kids you talked to lived in Ireland or Scotland they would never have heard of either of those two bands, and their influence would be more likely to be an authentic exponent from their culture instead of some rocked up spin off that’s headlining on a stage thousands of miles away at a Renaissance Celtic festival in the Sierra Foothills.
Bren: "Trad/folk has always gone in and out of fashion"
In Victorian England (and elsewhere in Europe), folk dancing became a fashionable pastime for the gentry - the very people it was *not* associated with. Peasant musicians began to be employed to play for dances, and gradually replaced their inherited repertoires with the popular dance tunes of the day, or doctored their music for 'cultured' ears. The ultimate upshot was that a lot of pre-C19 English folk music vanished.
This could be compared, on one level, to what is happening to Irish Traditional Music now. It is no longer (and was not always) the reserve of farmers in the west of Ireland; middle-class parents in Dublin, London, New York etc. send their children to Irish music classes. People such as myself, with no Irish connections, stumble into it, many of them becoming as much a part of their local scene as those whose parents and grandparents played it. I would not like to speculate as to what would be the overall long-term effects of this on the music, but it seems to me that there must be some.
Jack: Let's hope you're right. Nothing is more sobering than to unexpectedly meet up with your own nephew at a Celtic Music Festival dancing to the Wicked Tinkers in Kilt and devil horns.
Michael, I guess that's the direction of ITM in Tuolumne County. When that Celtic festival was established I had high hopes, but it seems like it's more of a dress and make believe we're living in the past sort of affair. Too bad someone can't grab the reins and direct it towards something that would be a better influence on the youth (and adults) in that area. Now kids think you have to wear a kilt and have a pewter mug on your belt if you're into Irish music.
They’ve had a few good bands up there, but the bulk of it seems to be Celtic Rock or some other spin-off. Someone should do something about it – for the sake of the children.
"In Victorian England (and elsewhere in Europe), folk dancing became a fashionable pastime for the gentry - the very people it was *not* associated with. Peasant musicians began to be employed to play for dances, and gradually replaced their inherited repertoires with the popular dance tunes of the day, or doctored their music for 'cultured' ears. The ultimate upshot was that a lot of pre-C19 English folk music vanished."
I think it happened before that too. Classical composers often drew on folk melodies. Robert Burns was collecting and writing songs and tunes 100 years before the Victorians, and managed to convey something of his passion for the music to the posh folk who feted him for his poetry.
The disappearance of pre 19C folk music in England probably has more to do with the massive emigrations of the time caused by industrialism and rural clearances.
I think there is an important factor that marks a difference with other styles an musical generes: the sessions. the way sessions survives the way ITM survives..... I think in virtual sessions and things like that....Well, there isn't the tecnology today but there are pleople making experiments in virtual guiness.....
I think Irish music is going through a period of great vitality. I was at a session last night with a number of young musicians. As Breandan says on his "Return From The Twilight Zone" post, there were loads of new tunes in scary keys, and old tunes played in new keys. New stuff that I haven't time to learn buzzing around in my brain! All those old warhorses (Sally Gardens, Silver Spear etc etc.) get a completely new lease of life when they're transposed.
I think for ages people worried about the death of regional styles, and there the the fear that this would create a bland pan-Irish style. But if that has occurred, it's been countered by a very interesting and eclectic range of influences,including Basque/Spanish stuff a-la Lunasa, French, Italian, Canadian, etc. etc. Rather than having the effect of blanding out the music into an all-purpose Celtic mush, the young (mostly) people playing this stuff are rooted enough in the Irish tradition to pull it in and use it to strengthen and diversify the gene-pool....
I agree, Ottery. I think it can be resumed as a live tradition. Fosilitation is a great way of preserving anything but it destroy its essence. In the other side there are certain dangers but this is the price of living?
Jack: One of my fondest hopes was to see decent Irish groups like Dervish showing up to influence the Celtic Festival culture here. Now I am hearing Dervish playing Bob Dylan stuff. Oops, the influencing went the wrong direction. After a few years of American Tours, Solas put out a Bluegrassy album. John Doyle left, and now seeing them only makes me feel sad about the changes.
Quite a few good Irish bands deviate from pure Irish music when they became more successful. Why do they do this? Is it possibly due to pressure from their record companies? For example, I noticed that Altan became more mainstream after signing up to Virgin. Danu have also recorded a Bob Dylan song on their new album!
There's nothing new there, though. Planxty recorded 'I Pity the Poor Immigrant' Solas have also done Woody Guthrie Songs. DeDanaan have recorded all manner of songs, but I don't think the output of professional groups is necessarily indicative of trends within the music. What is significant is what comes back to the music from those professional recordings. Is yer man on the ground playing Bob D. and Bluegrass?
I think maybe not...
Mark
Michael, I don't object to Dervish playing a Bob Dylan tune, Solas went a bit off the deep end for my taste after John left, but the thing about that festival I was referring to is they have the same Celtic Rock crap every year and it seems to be a self promotion affair for the other band. The real gem in the thing is the box player from Kerry who lives in Modesto and his family, and the occasional touring band from Ireland. (that's what gave me high hopes) The promoters seem to have overlooked the ITM stalwarts in the area in favor of Renaissance Celtic fairy music or that rocked up sh*te. There also seems to be an emphasis on sword fighting and dress-up make believe history recreation that’s out of context with ITM. Is it something in the water up there?
In our direction, who are playing it now, in whatever countries and for whatever reasons, influenced by whatever players or albums. Those of us who are English (or other non-Irish) can't be expected to feel we're in a straight continuum with players/singers/dancers in Sligo or New York in the1900's, but the players and albums we've heard will have to stand in for these.
I see the basis of ITM as a solo instrumentalist playing a distinct tune on one of a recognised list of instruments, usually a dance tune to particular rhythms, and doing so best by using traditional playing techniques. This is not to say anything against bands - far from it! - but to state the self-sufficiency of the tune and an individual player.
This is the strength of ITM. Anybody who can play a series of ITM tunes properly on a banjo, fiddle, whistle or whatever can do so, in a kitchen, in a pub corner, busking in the street, making real music without a band/ load of amplifiers /arrangements/ sound effects. And so many ITM tunes are so good. At any rate, if they are not crassly inflicted, Joe Public generally seems to like them.
(New instruments of course have/can come in, and new techniques be worked out.)
Having said all that, I suspect that ceilidhs and Irish dance groups will be an important factor in the maintenance of ITM outside Ireland.
(I should have added to the above, that to play ITM effectively one does not have to be young, good-looking and/or dressed up in any particular way..!)
...And I'll finish these ramblings by adding that your solo, or at any rate individual, ITM tune-player can also play for as many dancers as are in reasonable earshot of his/her instrument.
Where is ITM headed?
Where is ITM headed?
Is ITM and STM (Scottish) a current fad that will decrease in the future? Will it gain in popularity? Will it become part of a more international traditional music movement? Will it continue, but the style of music change more toward ornamentation and studio styles? Will it become more "mainstream" in some form?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Where is ITM headed?
I think the ITM scene will stay exactly the same as it is now for quite a while. There will always be people who will experiment with techniques and equipment that will help them sound like what they envision to be the authentic style/sound (the purist). There will always be the people who will experiment with new, modern techniques and equipment. There will always be an ITM scene, but ITM will never become a phenomenon in USA or probably anyplace else in the world. But there are people like us who will never let the idea of ITM die. The ITM scene will be just as it is for a long time.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Pete D
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Probably, but not among those who would have liked it anyway -- Riverdance and the other shows certainly drove attendance up at our stepdancing school. Maybe, but popularity often just breeds banality and new age music. It's always been part of the traditional music movements, because the Irish got everywhere. Yes, but not among the purists, which is what we need them for. No more than it has already, or hadn't you noticed this stuff and its influence showing up in pop music all over the place?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Where is ITM headed?
"...hadn't you noticed this stuff and its influence showing up in pop music all over the place?"
Some people probably fail, or refuse, to recognise the connection.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Trad/folk has always gone in and out of fashion.
For every move toward ecumenism there's another counterbalancing one toward fundamentalism.
I'd say the last big wave of popularity peaked about 5 years ago and started to recede, leaving behind many aspirant players who will get another wave rolling as they start to step out a bit and popular musicians go through another phase of "getting back to their roots"
I'd say about, I dunno -, 2008?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Bren
Re: Where is ITM headed?
"It's always been part of the traditional music movements, because the Irish got everywhere. . . or hadn't you noticed this stuff and its influence showing up in pop music all over the place?"
Exactly. The very structure of popular song, with rhyming verse in a verse: chorus: verse : chorus structure is essentially Irish in derivation. You can't take the Irish out of popular music. Irish music is popular music after all, as opposed to "art" music. It's been mainstream for hundreds of years.
"The ITM scene will be just as it is for a long time. "
If by this you mean "ever changing" I'd agree. The Irish Traditional Music "scene" is rather different now that it was 10 years ago, which is rather different than it was ten years before that. Things that are considered "traditional" now often wouldn't even have been recognized only 50 or 60 years ago, well within the lifetimes of current active musicians.
And I don't find anything wrong with this, per se. I'm perfectly comfortable being a "purist" one moment and an "experimentalist" the next. The music we consider "tradtitional" now was first invented by the experimentalists.
I do find it interesting, however, that the surest way to be accused of being "nontraditional" by certain "purists" is to do your best to do things exactly as they were done "back in the day" (whenever the "day" was), because the "tradition" has changed so much that even many "purists" can't even recognize the tradition.
Hence the need when speaking of tradition to ask "whose tradition, where and when?" Every generation starts a new tradition, and likely modifies it several times before they die.
"Celtic" music is a fad. It will fade, although as with many fads it may, in the long run, develop its own tradition, as did the fad of Irish fiddle dance music, which will go on, and on, and on. . . .
In *some* form or other.
KFG
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Where is ITM headed?
The fact that a few bars of traditional music can be heard on some advertsing campaigns on television and radio is proof that's it's already hit its peak.
It's downhill from the peak, and there's no telling where it might stop.
I'm sure that back in the 1930s / 1940s / 1950s they thought it would always be around, but it came close to dying out.
With so many other music types out there, and the ability to get certain genres of music to a mass audience so quickly means that the listening public will have a great deal of "stuff" thrown at them, in order to get their attention.
It's going to be a wild ride, IMO.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Tunes!
Re: Where is ITM headed?
In the United State, Irish music peaked when Riverdance peaked. Just as well. Commercial success brings pressure for more commercial success, from both the labels and from radio. To quote Pete Townsend, "music must change". But it should happen at its own pace and not be forced to be different simply because it sounds too much like what was playing on the radio three months ago.
For better or worse, Bluegrass is still relatively unchanged from what Bill Monroe started 60 years ago. If it had became wildly popular, there would be commercial pressure to change it to make it even more popular; to water it down. Look what happened to country music, which bears no resemblance to what Hank Williams did 50 years ago, let alone what the Carter Family did in the 1920's.
As an aside, I find it both humorous and tragic that in the early 70's, country radio wouldn't play bands like Poco and Pure Prairie League because they sounded to close to rock and now they don't play them because they sound too country. Go figure....
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Craymcla
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Re: country radio stations not playing 'Poco' and 'PPL'...
You've got that right. Back in the 50s, if a band showed up at the Grand Ole Opry with a set of drums, they'd have never been allowed on stage.
And look what's happened since.... gone is the mandolin player as providing the beat/percussion... ELECTRIC guitars are now the standard, rather than the classic pedal steel.
Things changed, and rather quickly, too. Some for good, some not.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Tunes!
Re: Where is ITM headed?
I don't think of ITM in terms of its popularity. The true direction of ITM has more to do with its state and not the spin-offs. I think it was threatened in the 40s and 50s, just as other country’s traditional music forms were when mass media appeared on the scene. But it rebounded in Ireland and elsewhere when people rediscovered what was displaced.
It seems that the music is in no such danger today based on what I've seen in Ireland, and the global popularity doesn't necessarily affect it one way or the other. I don't think Irish people rediscovered ITM because they saw people in other parts of the world getting involved. You will find Irish nationals here and there who were inspired because of what they observed while visiting elsewhere, but I don't think they really had any effect on the overall resurgence and strength of ITM back home.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Where is ITM headed?
It's heading for trouble with attempts to introduce aparteid for bodhran players on this site.
Aside from that, ITM has grown massively in twenty odd years or so. It is now very popular throughout Europe, with the possible exception of Ireland, and is popular in North America, Oz, South Africa and Yorkshire. It will remain so, as long as we enjoy the music and don't introduce too many session "rules" and things of that ilk.
But do not fool yourselves, it is not just the tunes, songs and airs are very important in spreading the music. The fact that every film/movie now has haunting airs, Riverdance et al, Christy Moore et al, these have all added to the popularity by making people go in search of more, eventually discovering what purists call the "real" thing.
If you include the songs as well, ITM and "folk" music will always be popular, especially if you combine the two.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Where is ITM headed?
I'd have to disagree with some of the views expressed here that trad has reached a peak with Riverdance and its likes and is now destined to decline. We've always had phenomenon such as Riverdance (Horslips in the seventies is just one example to come to mind) but I don't believe this has anything to do the "real" trad scene which was there before and which will continue into the future. Examples of this stretch from the music of Patsy Touhy through the Sligo greats (Morrison and Coleman), the Sliabh Luachra giants (Tom Billy Murphy, Padraig O'Keefe, Denis Murphy, etc) and more recently Joe Cooley, Willie Clancy to the musicians of today (Tommy Peoples, Tony McMahon, Noel Hill, etc). This music is played by far more young musicians today than ever before - just visit any Fleadh Cheoil or consider the 3,500 young people who sat the SCT traditional music exams in Ireland last year alone.
As for sessions abroad, this site says it all with contributions from Tokyo to Perth, all parts of the American continent not to mention the UK and Ireland itself. Overall I don't think the state of Irish music has ever been better.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Bannerman
Re: Where is ITM headed?
"It will remain so, as long as we enjoy the music and don't introduce too many session "rules" and things of that ilk." - Blisster
You live in Ireland, Bliss, "rules" aren't as important from what I've observed there. Why? Because people grew up with good examples of what a session is to influence them. The odds of people behaving poorly increases in places where the concept of a session is so murky. In places outside and far away from Ireland a session seems more like a "jam" and people get carried away with what that means. If you don't introduce some guidlines it just becomes another Deadhead do-your-own-thang bongo jam. That becomes a threat to ITM for people in those places who would like to simply get together for a tune at the pub.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Where is ITM headed?
i disagree with Tunes! with 'it's downhill from the peak' and 'came close to dying out' when there's no real evidence, in my book, of either of these happening, or ever happening . . .
except for an anthem-like riff (like 'smoke on the water') that may be lifted from a trad tune in an expensive future ad on tv
but what riff (from what tune)?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by lisaniska
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Well, everything changes, everything stays the same. Probably there will always be people playing tunes in pubs and commercial interests will always sample occasionally. Perhaps it might be interesting to consider the future of live music at all - playing any instrument, in any musical genre, is a minority activity, more so in public, and most people seem content to be passively "entertained" in terms of their musical tastes, rather than actively participate. What do you think?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by pfft
Re: Where is ITM headed?
well, you've squarely hit that sharpened ''nail on the head'', so you have
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by lisaniska
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Since the dawn of digital recording, I’ve been wondering if there’ll come a day when the ease of copying and distributing takes so much profit out of the recording industry that the age of superstars comes to an end and the public actually starts to rely on local live music. Could that happen? Would it be a bad thing?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Where is ITM headed?
"Could that happen? "
No.
"Would it be a bad thing?"
No.
KFG
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Where is ITM headed?
I concur.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Can I dream?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Where is ITM headed?
If I promise not to snore?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Anyone concerned about changes of direction? I get to talk to teenagers discovering their Irish and Scottish roots and getting started into music. For a lot of them, this means bands like Flogging Molly or the Wicked Tinkers.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Well, whatever becomes of it, I just sincerely hope it will never be renamed Eye Tea Emm. Or Ess Tea Emm.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Where is ITM headed?
But Michael, that has no relevance really to the direction of ITM. If the kids you talked to lived in Ireland or Scotland they would never have heard of either of those two bands, and their influence would be more likely to be an authentic exponent from their culture instead of some rocked up spin off that’s headlining on a stage thousands of miles away at a Renaissance Celtic festival in the Sierra Foothills.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Bren: "Trad/folk has always gone in and out of fashion"
In Victorian England (and elsewhere in Europe), folk dancing became a fashionable pastime for the gentry - the very people it was *not* associated with. Peasant musicians began to be employed to play for dances, and gradually replaced their inherited repertoires with the popular dance tunes of the day, or doctored their music for 'cultured' ears. The ultimate upshot was that a lot of pre-C19 English folk music vanished.
This could be compared, on one level, to what is happening to Irish Traditional Music now. It is no longer (and was not always) the reserve of farmers in the west of Ireland; middle-class parents in Dublin, London, New York etc. send their children to Irish music classes. People such as myself, with no Irish connections, stumble into it, many of them becoming as much a part of their local scene as those whose parents and grandparents played it. I would not like to speculate as to what would be the overall long-term effects of this on the music, but it seems to me that there must be some.
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Jack: Let's hope you're right. Nothing is more sobering than to unexpectedly meet up with your own nephew at a Celtic Music Festival dancing to the Wicked Tinkers in Kilt and devil horns.
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Michael, I guess that's the direction of ITM in Tuolumne County. When that Celtic festival was established I had high hopes, but it seems like it's more of a dress and make believe we're living in the past sort of affair. Too bad someone can't grab the reins and direct it towards something that would be a better influence on the youth (and adults) in that area. Now kids think you have to wear a kilt and have a pewter mug on your belt if you're into Irish music.
They’ve had a few good bands up there, but the bulk of it seems to be Celtic Rock or some other spin-off. Someone should do something about it – for the sake of the children.
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Where is ITM headed?
"In Victorian England (and elsewhere in Europe), folk dancing became a fashionable pastime for the gentry - the very people it was *not* associated with. Peasant musicians began to be employed to play for dances, and gradually replaced their inherited repertoires with the popular dance tunes of the day, or doctored their music for 'cultured' ears. The ultimate upshot was that a lot of pre-C19 English folk music vanished."
I think it happened before that too. Classical composers often drew on folk melodies. Robert Burns was collecting and writing songs and tunes 100 years before the Victorians, and managed to convey something of his passion for the music to the posh folk who feted him for his poetry.
The disappearance of pre 19C folk music in England probably has more to do with the massive emigrations of the time caused by industrialism and rural clearances.
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by Bren
Re: Where is ITM headed?
I think there is an important factor that marks a difference with other styles an musical generes: the sessions. the way sessions survives the way ITM survives..... I think in virtual sessions and things like that....Well, there isn't the tecnology today but there are pleople making experiments in virtual guiness.....
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by fer
Re: Where is ITM headed?
I think Irish music is going through a period of great vitality. I was at a session last night with a number of young musicians. As Breandan says on his "Return From The Twilight Zone" post, there were loads of new tunes in scary keys, and old tunes played in new keys. New stuff that I haven't time to learn buzzing around in my brain! All those old warhorses (Sally Gardens, Silver Spear etc etc.) get a completely new lease of life when they're transposed.
I think for ages people worried about the death of regional styles, and there the the fear that this would create a bland pan-Irish style. But if that has occurred, it's been countered by a very interesting and eclectic range of influences,including Basque/Spanish stuff a-la Lunasa, French, Italian, Canadian, etc. etc. Rather than having the effect of blanding out the music into an all-purpose Celtic mush, the young (mostly) people playing this stuff are rooted enough in the Irish tradition to pull it in and use it to strengthen and diversify the gene-pool....
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Where is ITM headed?
I agree, Ottery. I think it can be resumed as a live tradition. Fosilitation is a great way of preserving anything but it destroy its essence. In the other side there are certain dangers but this is the price of living?
¿too philosophical?
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by fer
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Jack: One of my fondest hopes was to see decent Irish groups like Dervish showing up to influence the Celtic Festival culture here. Now I am hearing Dervish playing Bob Dylan stuff. Oops, the influencing went the wrong direction. After a few years of American Tours, Solas put out a Bluegrassy album. John Doyle left, and now seeing them only makes me feel sad about the changes.
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Bluegrassy? Really? Which album is that?
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Quite a few good Irish bands deviate from pure Irish music when they became more successful. Why do they do this? Is it possibly due to pressure from their record companies? For example, I noticed that Altan became more mainstream after signing up to Virgin. Danu have also recorded a Bob Dylan song on their new album!
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Where is ITM headed?
There's nothing new there, though. Planxty recorded 'I Pity the Poor Immigrant' Solas have also done Woody Guthrie Songs. DeDanaan have recorded all manner of songs, but I don't think the output of professional groups is necessarily indicative of trends within the music. What is significant is what comes back to the music from those professional recordings. Is yer man on the ground playing Bob D. and Bluegrass?
I think maybe not...
Mark
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Where is ITM headed?
Michael, I don't object to Dervish playing a Bob Dylan tune, Solas went a bit off the deep end for my taste after John left, but the thing about that festival I was referring to is they have the same Celtic Rock crap every year and it seems to be a self promotion affair for the other band. The real gem in the thing is the box player from Kerry who lives in Modesto and his family, and the occasional touring band from Ireland. (that's what gave me high hopes) The promoters seem to have overlooked the ITM stalwarts in the area in favor of Renaissance Celtic fairy music or that rocked up sh*te. There also seems to be an emphasis on sword fighting and dress-up make believe history recreation that’s out of context with ITM. Is it something in the water up there?
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Where is ITM headed?
"Why do they do this?"
Because they like the music?
KFG
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by KFG
Re: Where is ITM headed?
In our direction, who are playing it now, in whatever countries and for whatever reasons, influenced by whatever players or albums. Those of us who are English (or other non-Irish) can't be expected to feel we're in a straight continuum with players/singers/dancers in Sligo or New York in the1900's, but the players and albums we've heard will have to stand in for these.
I see the basis of ITM as a solo instrumentalist playing a distinct tune on one of a recognised list of instruments, usually a dance tune to particular rhythms, and doing so best by using traditional playing techniques. This is not to say anything against bands - far from it! - but to state the self-sufficiency of the tune and an individual player.
This is the strength of ITM. Anybody who can play a series of ITM tunes properly on a banjo, fiddle, whistle or whatever can do so, in a kitchen, in a pub corner, busking in the street, making real music without a band/ load of amplifiers /arrangements/ sound effects. And so many ITM tunes are so good. At any rate, if they are not crassly inflicted, Joe Public generally seems to like them.
(New instruments of course have/can come in, and new techniques be worked out.)
Having said all that, I suspect that ceilidhs and Irish dance groups will be an important factor in the maintenance of ITM outside Ireland.
# Posted on August 9th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Where is ITM headed?
(I should have added to the above, that to play ITM effectively one does not have to be young, good-looking and/or dressed up in any particular way..!)
# Posted on August 11th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Where is ITM headed?
...And I'll finish these ramblings by adding that your solo, or at any rate individual, ITM tune-player can also play for as many dancers as are in reasonable earshot of his/her instrument.
# Posted on August 11th 2006 by nicholas