Have you guys heard that the Sligo-based band, The Border Collies, have cancelled their US tour on account of pressure being brought to bear by the attorney for the Atlanta-based band with the same name?
Could they become "Border Poodles" or something else? I guess it doesn't sound as dramatic. Makes me think of "Lassie" of American TV fame. Did she have a litter?
They already produced CDs and what-have-you with The Border Collies on them. All of the venues have already produced their advertisements with the name as well. I was thinking they could add, "From Sligo," but there's a lot more to the story that's still unreported perhaps.
Thanks for the link, FMT, it's a mess indeed. Bad blood brewing as well. I was following along right with him until he said, "We can then have a strong legal basis to sue the bastards" and then realized this could get ugly.
They wouldn't be the first band or artist who's had to change their name because an existing band or artist with that name objected.
Squeeze of "Up the Junction" fame had to be "UK Squeeze" in the USA and wherever else the writ of the other Squeeze ran large.
I think it's something you just have to be careful about when you get bigger than just playing your local pubs and start to make CDs, have a website and tour internationally. It seems from the Atlanta Collies' version, Colm O'Donnell was not only careless of this, but wilfully so.
Perhaps they will have to come up with an alternative name if they wish to tour America. We used to have a Border Collie Cross. Maybe that's what they could be. Then again, a Queensland Blue Heeler is a breed related to Border Collies (and dingoes I think). But there are already bands called the Dingoes (now defunct) the Blue Healers (Aus blues band) and I'm sure there is a "Kelpies" (another Australian breed related to Border Collies and dingoes, from the Scottish word) somewhere. "Irish Wolfhounds" just sounds naff, and the Old Blind Dogs are Scottish.
This sounds like an issue for real legal counsel from someone that knows the music industry. There might be a way to change the name of the Irish group, but then have to renegotiate for the concerts. Bailing out on an entire tour could come back to haunt them in negotiating future contracts.
Surely Colm O'Donnell's group is a proper Irish band playing Irish music. The Atlanta Border Collies are an American band playing 'Celtic' music.
And they have a cellist, fer chrissakes.
Why don't the Atlanta band just do the decent thing and call themselves The Border Coyotes?
'The Connaught Heifers' would be a good name, but I suspect it's already been used - the last thing they want is someone else threatening court action. Anyway, they're mostly men.
It seems that another band in Ireland that knows us has decided to use our band name for their own. Their leader, Colm O'Donnell, actually told me about this the last time we were there, in the summer of 2003. He also mentioned that he liked the t-shirt I gave him so much that he copied the printing (complete with the logo) to use for his own, new band as well. I told him face to face that I didn't think this was cool, and shrugged it off. I was appalled, but couldn't do much at the time, right there in Ireland.
..............
So, if this is true, the Sligo band is just a blatant rip-off of the Atlanta group.
I think Colm O'Donnell is a sheep farmer and a breeder of Collies. So I guess he is not too interested in changing the group's name at this stage. The question is why he picked that name knowing full well that there was already a group by that name in USA. He would have had to know that this would mean trouble if he tried to tour across the Atlantic.
I suspect that he will just leave this matter lie and forget touring the group. They only got together to try and win a competition -which they won. The recorded CD was the product of that so he's probably happily back at his sheep farming now.
Anyway it is a shame that someone from the group doesn't give the world their side of the story.
BTW: Unleashed is a great album and Colm has a great voice. I'll bet the Collies have no trouble obeying a master with a voice like that.
What a nasty mess. The leader of the Atlanta band happens to be a friend of mine, but regardless of that, I always have to come down on the side of whoever had the name first. Some more friends of mine also had their band name usurped by another band who went through the process of making the ripoff legal. I don't know what the ultimate legality is in that sort of case, but I do know what's fair.
My wife and I have been using a band name for nearly twenty-five years, and I've heard of another group in the Northeast also using the name. I won't mention the name because I don't want to stir up trouble.
I suppose the moral is, If you like your band name, get it registered.
Maybe the US of A should invade Ireland to "liberate" the name. You could all join up, get free transport to Ireland, and then go AWOL when you get here, to attend "The Session" gathering.
I know it sounds a bit drastic, but think of all the red headed ladies here.
And think of the enjoyment "Dow" will get from reading more blethering.
I will surely get a Sainthood after my demise for being such a helpful guy.
That is horrible alright.
Kinda reminds me of the time when an American company came to Australian and copyrighted the word 'Ugh' as in 'Ugh boot' which is what aussies have been calling them since time began and obviously no one had previously put it under copyright. Why would they? Its like putting 'Gum tree' or 'The opera House' under copyright.
Anyhow - since that day nobody is allowed to Advertise Ugh boots as Ugh boots because the words are owned by an American company. Bizarre.
Oh - I totally missed my point previously - what led me onto that rant is the fact that the original border collies want to sue over it. Do people not think that is a little bit harsh. It seems to me that American culture is just so easy going about suing people etc. you really dont get it much anywhere else in the world. I totally think it was wrong of the other lads *if* that is the way it really happended. And lets face it its about 3rd internet hand at least. But still, suing!!?? Do they even play the same kind of music? Cause as far as I'm concered there is a major diffrence between 'Celtic' Music and "Irish" music.
...I'm considering to change name to my new band...the current name is "The Chieftains".
What di you think...I must change it?
...."Altan" would be better?
I have felt the same way Donough does. Colm probably used the name thinking they probably wouldn't win the CD contest, and he never expected it would lead to possible US tours. That's why I think everyone should relax and let the Sligo band slap some stickers on their stuff that says "from Sligo" so they can do their tour and go back home. I really don't get the feeling he wants to become a touring band for any length of time from the interviews I've heard and from talking to him myself in Ennis. Their CD is my current favorite for listening BTW.
I could understand the fuss if the name wasn't so pathetic... really, would you actually cross the street to hear a band that couldn't think of a better name than "The Border Collies"?
Well, it won't matter - betcha one or both bands folds within the year. The money in regional touring isn't worth the headache Atlanta Band is bringing out, and the odds of any band (particularly one playing "Celtic" music - ick) breaking past that are something less than "not good", perhaps better than "snowball's chance in hell", but not by much. Add in a legal fight, and you've pretty much written your obituary.
If you're thinking of starting a band, there are a number of object lessons here, take your pick. A free shakey egg to anyone who spots them all.
border collies are beautiful dogs with lots of good will and skill but musicality was not amongst them so far ... so my advice: no tears and change your name quick. maybe sligo dogs ....
matching names are common in music pro and semi pro scene. but aiming for "going real business" needs a unique name otherwise you promote the other ones with every gig you play.
I used to be in one of the Tir na n'Ogs. We toured from Lethbridge to Water Valley. We didn't get sued. Maybe once you get up around 30 or 40 bands with the same name nobody cares any more.
Jack, this clears up a nagging mystery in my mind. You raved about these fellas from Sligo and then when I searched the internet I found this Atlantean band. It shook my faith.
This makes one point. It serves neither band to have the same name, and the Sligo band should realize this as well. They should come to some sort of agreement. The Atlanta band has rights to the name as they can show first use. The Sligo band should change their name and use this tour to promote the band under the new name. The sticker they slap on their cds can have the new name on there.
We had a band take our name, but at least they eventually did the "right" thing and offer to pay us for the rights. Still, it does not sit well to have other people using the name. Especially when they play a different style of music. People in the area still go to their gigs expecting to see us.
A radical American group could be called Dawgs from Hell. However, I don't think Heavy Metal and ITM could ever mix. How about Border Doggies? Three Men, Two Women and a Border Collie? Old Blind Border Collies? Border Chieftains? Border O'Collies? Border Rovers? The Irish Setters? The Woofhounds?
NEWSFLASH: MAN BITES DOG Dateline St Paul, Minnesota, It was reported today that an incident took place where a man, Jode Dowling, bit a border collie dog on the banjo. Witnesses were horrified as they sat watching at a nearby cafe eating lunch.
In the 80's there were two bands called The Beat; one in England and one in the USA. In the United States, the British band became The English Beat. If they would just become, while in American, the Sligo Border Collies, the problem would go away.
Jode: Its not politically correct to bite someone on the "G" string!
Glister and Blister: you guys are developing a routine. Can I book you for a US tour. What name would you want to steal, ...er, I mean use?
I hope this mess can be sorted out amicably.I have heard the Sligo based band and their music is a great taste of the tradition.It's a shame if the people in the US miss the opportunity to listen to them
Let me add this. Before we started using the name BorderCollies in 1999, we were very carefull to research the name and make sure no one else was using it. My research showed that it had never even been used before. The whole issue here has to do with the fact that we established the band and band name, and, with al lot of effort, have built and maintained arguably one of the best Celtic bands in the state of Georgia. It deeply saddens me that another musician (let alone a great and well-respected one such as Colm O'Donnell) would deliberately decide to use our band name for his own. The last thing we ever expected to do was to ever have to defend our band name like this. To me, it's the craziest thing that I've ever had happen in the 30 odd years that I've been a pro musician. We have made every effort to contact Colm (after my last meeting with him in Ireland in the July of 2003, where he told me to my face not only of using our name for his own, but also copying the t-shirt with logo for his new band). I was shocked, and caught completely off-guard for this, but did manage to tell him that I didn't think it was a cool thing to do at the time. We are still hoping to be able to open a dialogue with Colm and work out a reasonble compromise. After all, this band name thing is not a unique situation, and has happened many times before, all with the same results. In Georgia, I used to do some gigs in the 80's with a band called the Satellites. After they got a big hit ("Keep Your Hands to Yourself") they became the Georgia Satellites, because someone else had an earlier claim to that name. Many of your suggestions alude to something like that, and the idea of using stickers on their present CD inventory is perfectly acceptable to us. They can make the change and still tour over here - no problem. I apologize for my angry statement earlier about "suing the bastards". That was letting my anger get the better of me. I just want this to get settled quickly, so we don't have to waste any more time, energy and money over something so basic. The lesson here seems to be that we all have to respect each other, as musicians, as artists and a human beings. I'm sure all of you must agree with that. I would hope that maybe one of you can get word to Colm. He seems to not be resonding to anyone about this. I certainly would like to hear from him.
I have been watching this for many months now and have stayed out of the discussion because of many reasons. One reason is that i played for a while with the Atlanta based band when I first moved to America. Another is that I run a website and write about music from Ireland and America (and many other countries) and I thought that there might seem to be obvious bias because of my history with the Bordercollies. I have also been totally immersed in three other projects over the past 4 months - a Tsunami relief collaboration CD called Hands Across The Water ( http://www.handsacrossthewater.com ) tour managing Altan and then coordinating all the aspects of Ciaran Tourish's solo release Down the Line. So I thought by the time all those projects were on course that this issue may have blown over. It hasn't so i will add my 2c (either euro or American) worth.
I have seen some embarrasing posts in various places from Irish people saying that The Bordercollies are an American band and don't play real Irish or Celtic music. That is partly true. They CAN play Irish music but the band draws on many influences and add their own sounds to it. But that isn;t the issue. Who says the BorderCollies is a name held only for an Irish band? I don't know Colm O Donnell at all or his music. He may be brilliant or he may be awful. That isn't relevant. It does seem to me though that someone who does not have the imagination to come up with a fresh new name and instead conveniently uses someone elses (as well as their tshirt design) can't have the imagination to make very good music.
I often work as a consultant to many big festivals and know all the big venues, promotors and agents in the US . I have already been asked about this matter from some small and medium sized venues and promotors. I have told them that in my opinion they should stay clear of booking the Irish Collies until some sort of agreement is reached with Colm and Michael. At least Michael deserves a call or mail from Colm and an apology.
I have had my differences with Michael while I was in the band musically but he loves his band, he loves the music and he has worked very very hard over the years to build up the following they have. I understand his passion and his anger over this as it wasn't merely an accidental coincidence but a blatant rip off of something that Michael clearly owns.
As an Irish musician I would ask Colm to do the decent thing and show the music community that he has the balls to be a bigger man. He could turn this into something really positive for both bands and open many doors over here in America that could so easily remain closed.
Thats it from me.. now I am going back to a really important issue of getting the Hands album on iTunes and in the stores so we can build some houses, schools and water supply facilities for some kids who have heard of neither band.
I would like to hear from Colm as well, but I'm wondering if there isn’t some cultural differences that are coming into play here. I wonder if it’s perceived as more of a compliment that he adopted the name and t-shirt idea instead of theft. I also wonder if he saw the name in the context of the music scene in Ireland that has little to do with the States. The Atlanta based band would be unlikely to become an active player in Ireland the same way he probably thought the Sligo band would in the US. And he might have believed that the music they play would be enough to distinguish them from one another as well if they made the odd trip to the States.
At any rate, I don't think the Atlanta band has to feel threatened because I doubt that Colm and Co. have any aspirations to become very active within the same demographics that they operate in. I'm almost certain they would have done their tour and rarely ever come back. If they did it would probably be a far and few between sort of thing.
I wonder how the Atlanta based band would feel if this was the case.
And one of the things that kicked this into a higher gear was finding out that Colm and Co. were trying to play the same festivals as us, right here in the southeastern US. His US agent is based in the southeast US. By using our name and releasing a CD that's all over the internet and being sold worldwide via internet retailers, they've created confusion between the two bands. The other thing is, Caeri and I have played in Ireland before, by invitation from Colm's cousin. She also asked us to record with her over there, which we did at the Ceoltori in Dublin. The BorderCollies actually turned down a request to tour the UK and Ireland this past March and have an offer to tour over there in March of 2006. It's a small world we live in, and it's an even smaller but well-connected international Celtic community.
Maybe it does sound that way, but I guess I'm not ready to conclude that Colm is doing a coup d'état on your band. Until we hear from Colm we won't know for sure. What does Colm's cousin think of all this?
When I told her again at the Ceoltori (which by the way I felt honored to get invited to record at) She smiled and shrugged and smiled at me and said "Well, he does raise the dogs." Since then, she has stayed out of it, as she and I have remained very friendly and cordial. We certainly like playing with each other and like each other as people. I get the feeling it's a little embarassing to her, which I think is understandable. Perhaps that was my first inkling into the fact that many of the Irish don't see what the problem is - they're doing their thing over there and we do ours over here. Well, I totally agree with you about hearing what Colm has to say. That would be good to hear his side. You will ask when you speak to him again, won't you?
How many bands are there names "Gan Anim" Ive come across a few. I dont see them threatening to sue each other.
Does your band, and the other band even play the same kind of music? People may say it shouldnt matter, but it would if one of you were say a *rock* band and another a *traditional Irish band* its not as if you'd get the same crowds in the first place.
Anyhow - its a *word*, I just dont get how people can honestly get het up about a word. Since when did people decide to start bring in laws that say I can 'Own' this name. I mean, I know that they have (copyright etc) But its stupid and insignificant and there are so many other more interesting things to be getting worked up about.
I think its kinda petty to be honest. And it goes back to my thread about the American company copyrighting the *very* Australian word 'Ugh boot' - load of crap if you ask me. Which you didnt. So I shall go.
Whenever I hear stories about people suing and lawsuits and stuff over something so pathetically mundane, it always makes me annoyed. It definitely *is* an American thing, this suing at the drop of a hat, and the idea seems to be spreading to the UK and Australia. It always boils down to money, and that's all anyone ever cares about these days. And "Border Collies" is a crap name for a band. Anyway border collies are from the Scottish border region and although they're now an international breed, culturally they have little to do with either Ireland or the States. I think both bands should pull their heads out from their behinds before they turn themselves inside out, and damn well think up a decent band name. There, never been one to mince my words eh.
I must admit when I heard the name Border Collies I immediately thought, as you would, that it would be a band from the Borders, but no, um, it's some band that has nothing to do with the Borders. It's like a band from France calling themselves the "Kookaburras". Don't you think Aussies would find that a bit weird?
Are you two having fun? I thought so. Personally, I don't think it's just an American thing, but then I wouldn't, would I? We've been over your "cultural imperialism" thing before.
This is the sort of thing that makes me glad I'm not trying to make a living out of the music (not that I'd get very far anyway!). It sounds like the name was appropriated before the Irish band had any inkling that they were going to take off in the way they have. I suspect that threats of litigation (maybe not only an American thing, Zina, but one that certainly originated in America, and now spreading like cancer over the globe) make certain types of people less inclined to co-operate. I know that if I borrowed a clever sounding name for a band I'd put together for a barn-dance, and then I suddenly found myself more famous than the band I'd filched the name from (unlikely, I know, but...), an attempt to sue would probably make me assume that a) The original band was jealous of our success, and b) that they wanted to make some money out of our success, and c) that some loathsome and venal lawyer was spurring them on. As far as litigation in general goes, it's not those with a moral right to a name who tend to benefit, it's those with most money, and the lawyers. You only have to look at the example of McDonalds the multi-national money-hooverers vs. McDonalds the long established burger shop in Arbroath. In spite of the the Scottish fellow being able to trace his name back four centuries, and that the shop has been trading under that name for a hundred years, the fact that twenty years ago he started selling burgers means that he's encroaching on a right that McDonalds have conjured up in the States.
End of Rant
I see you have a good source of income outside of the music. Last night on the way to the session, I passed a liquor store with a sign (the kind with the removable letters) that said: OTTERY TICKETS.
Anyway, another example kind of (but not quite) like the McDonalds one is with Anheuser-Busch's battle with the Czech brewer Budweiser-Budvar, maker of the original Budweiser. Until recently, you couldn't buy the Czech brew in the U.S. Finally, they reached an agreement (after 62 years) where the Czech beer is imported here under the name Czechvar.
Jerry, I've told you never to contact me here!
But seeing as you're here, we're planning to meet in the bar at the Town Hall for a pre Gig drink at about quarter to seven .. See you there?
What's Cloud Atlas?
Hey I loved that little duet from Dow and beebs!
I'm not buying into this whole canine conundrum until someone gets word from Colm - that is when he has finished chasing his sheep around the hills of Sligo.
Originated in America, Mark? That's bosh. It originated in England, silly boy. Or maybe China. Court systems pop up wherever there are civilizations, actually, but there are suits brought in those courts wherever people are wealthy enough to have the extra cash and time to do so. If those requirements are not met, there are no suits, which are time-consuming and expensive and take away from trying to grub your living out of the dust. And suits have existed, along with the prediliction for bringing them, since at least Hammurabi. (I mean, look at the Romans, for cat's sake.)
It's just that we've got a whole huge nation full of rich spoiled brats to point fingers, here in "modern" times with "modern" communications. (The rabbit ears are because "modern" never looks quite so "modern" after about 50 years or so.)
I'm not mad, beebs, but I do get tired of the kneejerk "American cultural imperialism" thing, it's lazy thinking and directs the energy away from actually trying to change people and how they think, because it's just a stereotype and not an actual example. You can't change how people think by utilizing stereotypes, really, all it does is back them up into a corner and make them defensive.
Ok, I think I'm going to make this my last post. It looks like most of you are choosing to ignore the true facts presented by myself and by John Cutliffe. You seem to be using this topic as a subject for your own agendas and grandstanding. Think of us what you will. It seems that the truth doesn't matter here, and there's tons of self-admitted bias, started by the discussion leader. As far as the recent comment about the type of music we make, why don't you visit our music site BB so can can listen and then bash us for that too. The site is at http://artists2.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/The_BorderCollies/
Oh, yeah, my wife's family happens to be from Carlisle (not PA) if that makes any difference, and we've played there a little bit as well, as well as Edinburgh. One of the pix on our News and Gigs page on our http://www.thebordercollies.com/news.htm
site is from when we were in Brampton, and there's also a shot at Colm's cousin's house in Sligo as well. Good day, gentlemen.
Zina, you're being disengenuous. No one is saying that the Americans invented courts or the idea of using the courts to gain redress. Look at Oscar Wilde. You know we're just referring to the current wave of legal-profession-propelled litigiousness that seems to be sweeping the 'Western World'. We have people here threatening to sue schools when their kids fall off swings - it wasn't like that twenty years ago (I'm sounding just like my Grandad here). There was a time when suing someone was what stupid rich people did. Now there are lawyers and 'ambulance chasers' etc. who encourage people to make claims on the basis that they will only charge them if the claim is successful.
I rest my case, your honour...
And now I'm off to hear Cathal Hayden, Catriona Macdonald, Michael Doucet, Darol Anger, Bruce Molsky and Rushad Eggleston do their thing - should be a good gig!
And before I go ...(!)
Miguel, chill out man. Of course anyone is going to get ripped into if they say anything that make them sound like they take themselves seriously. It's a web message board not an Oxford debating society. It isn't a place to look for sympathy unless its for something serious like having your instrument stolen or something.
Firstly, I'm no "discussion leader," I just initiated the topic. I admitted that I was arguing from the Sligo band's perspective, but we have your perspective on the thread already, so I was offering a possible perspective from their angle. I also pointed out that we'll never know until Colm speaks up on the issue. My point has consistently been that there might be a less drastic measure to be taken than litigation. But again, until you hear from Colm your hands are tied, and I do sympathize with you on that point. The whole affair is unfortunate and I do hope something everyone can live happily with results.
Mark, I still don't think that's an American thing -- I think it's what happens when people have time on their hands and the luxury of money to hire lawyers with. American or not.
And Michael's already apologized for losing his temper and talking about bringing a suit. Everyone says stuff in the heat of anger that they don't mean later.
If I understand correctly, the "litigation" was brought about after numerous attempts to solve the issue by the Georgia based group. I have to admit that it does seem odd that the Sligo based group hasn't come forth, one on one, to discuss this. It sounds like Michael simply wants to clear up the issue rather than make money off of a lawsuit.
Considering how vast the membership/lurkership this website has, it would be nice if the result of this discussion encouraged the conversation from the Sligo band.
I hope you are able to clear up the misuderstanding soon Michael, and best wishes for your band. I enjoyed your music from the links above.
Irish people believe the law is to be ignored. Drunk driving, speeding, driving license, anything to do with driving, drinking or "ripping off" the system. They still think they are ruled by England and getting one over on them. They haven't realised they have been stealing from their own pockets since they had their own Government in 1922.
That is not to say that "The Border Collies" are trying to rip off the septic tanks. Not all Irish people are crooks, but they do have an ambiviance towards the law. Can you think of any other country were an elected representative can be found guilty of stealing over 6 million pounds of public money, and increasing his vote in the next election?
Hopefully all will be resolved. It's a stupid name anyway, or so my own Border Collie tells me.
And Zina, the US of A even made a long running series called "Ally McBeal" highlighting the cultural obsession with suing people.
And like a lot of things American, it is spreading here, now that Britain is the 51st state, without voting rights, and the Irish always loved "An tOilin Or" (the Golden Island) as they called the US of A.
Well Zina, I've just got back from the concert (and a bit of a session in the bar there I'm afraid) and the boys from the US of A swept the board. Darol Anger and his lads charmed and seduced the audience. I loved the others, but Darol, for all his annoying faffing around with the mike stand, stole the night for me (and that's from someone who would have Catriona McDonald's babies any day of the week (except Mondays and Wednesdays, obviously, when I'm at sessions), and who worships Cathal Hayden like the father he wished he'd been born with or even to).
To be competely honest I dont care about what kind of music you play or the other band plays. I have no interest in bagging you or your music out at all. That wasnt what I meant, just that if you both played different kinds of music then maybe it wouldnt be as bad than if you both did the exact same thing and had the exact same name.
If you notice my previous posts Miguel - you will notice that I said that it was "horrible". I also said *if* it were true. Well I'm really sorry - but you are a stranger that I am chating to on the Internet, so really until I see it for myself then I err on the side of caution. I never said that I beleived that it was or wasnt true. I have never heard of your band or the other band or any of the people invovled.
Are you honestly trying to tell me, that in the entire wide world there is not *one* other band called the "BorderCollies". 75% of the worlds population have never used a phone.....maybe they havent used the internet either.
My point was never taking sides or anything. If you re-read my posts Miguel - you will see that I was merely saying that I thought it was a bit of a stupid the whole litigation thing - and it wasnt directed at you but at a culture - which Zina rightly pointed out was me stereotyping again. Which was true and its something that I do from time to time, which I shouldnt.
For future reference its 'bb' not 'BB' - thats someone else on the site - although he's usually getting yelled at for stuff so maybe he can just take the blame for me to - he's prob used to causing a stir by now
Hey Zeens I'm not knocking yanks. Just some things are easier to recognise if you're looking from the outside in, yeah? Anyway, go easy on me - I'm not feeling very well today after having started a bar fight in the centre of Sydney and then having been sick all over my nice suburban street, much to the horror of the nice Indian woman who lives along the road. Maybe she'll sue me for causing her visual disturbization
To answer the question, no, why would I? Insofar as I know, that only happens on tv. *smirk* Or perhaps you're like Bliss and believe in what you see on TV?
Why should I go easy on you when you were such a dumbf*ck last night?! LOL
Ok, I’m going to reluctantly add another post here to this discussion, just to clear the air and make another point or two. It seems kind of pointless, because this thing will be decided by some US Trademark/Servicemark attorney in Washington, and I know now that I will never be able to convince you guys and gals of anything here. I’ve spent two years actively trying to talk to Colm and settle this privately, before it escalated as it has. First of all, the only thing there has been as far as litigation is talk. The practicality of suing in a case like this is pretty remote, mostly due to the enormous costs and the tiny rewards. So anyone here thinking that I would be making any money is sadly mistaken. Part of my anger comes from the fact that I had to shell out $1,000 to file for the trade and service marks and hire an attorney to do it in the first place! That was $1,000 I didn’t have at the time (Visa anyone?) and certainly would rather have spent that $1,000 on taking my kids to the dentist or buying a baritone guitar (been really wanting a baritone acoustic lately) or a nice new mic for my studio. Believe me, I didn’t feel good about having to spend that money. If there were to be a suit and IF we won, we wouldn’t get any money, because Colm doesn’t have any money either. Worst case for him would be a judgment (and this is just my guess) where he might have to sell part of his herd to pay off his legal fees. What I am trying to achieve is to get him to cease and desist using my band name. At this, I will not rest. Someone mentioned getting sympathy for only things like having an instrument stolen. I’m not looking for your sympathy. And I could easier live with one of my Martin guitars being stolen than my band name, that I’ve spent six years now of very hard work and extreme adversity to maintain, promote and keep together. The Martins are insured, and I can always find another one. This is much, much more serious to me. And, lastly, the truly sad part is that Colm O’Donnell is, in my opinion, a brilliant musician with a lot of soul (as we Americans say) in what he does. The guy is, I believe, a multiple All-Ireland champion. I’ve seen him perform at two shows here at Emory and mesmerize the audience with his brilliant vocals, and I sessioned with him at Fado the following night and watched as he quieted down a very noisy American pub with a gorgeous ballad. He played some brilliant flute and easily kept up with the other wiz-kids All-Ireland champs half his age at the same session. So my point is, the saddest blow is that this disrespect, this theft of something so important to me is coming from a brilliant Irish musician, not some tosser-wannabe, not some snot nosed kid from the fields. And it’s so blatantly deliberate, and it just keeps going. I can’t for the life of me understand why he is doing this, because it’s like stealing another man’s song. Isn’t that what copyrights are for? Would any of you plagiarize a song that you didn’t write and call it your own? Of course not. This is not an Irish thing or an American thing – this has to do with honor among musicians – among fellow artists. It is theft of intellectual property. It is gross disrespect of a fellow musician. That’s my biggest beef. I think Colm has somehow backed himself into a corner here and can’t get out. His sitting silently, watching all of this (I’m pretty sure he and/or his cronies are reading along here guys) and he’s just letting this thing roll along. Well, I wish he’d find a way out that corner. He’s losing out on airplay and touring and CD sales over here and if we get the trademark and service registrations and he persists, there’s no telling what else he’ll lose. For sure, he won’t be able to tour or sell CD’s in the US under that name. Ireland has a reciprocal agreement they tell me, so it can come and bite him in the ass over there too, although I’m not clear on the details. That is for my lawyer to figure out. Our lawyer, by the way, is a session player and a fellow Comhaltas member. The only thing we have to gain is to keep our band name. I honestly hope that none of you ever have to go through something like this. Ok, sorry to go long with this rant. I hope this clears the air to some extent, although I have no delusions of convincing any of you of anything. I just hope Colm is watching and taking notes.
You have a wee bit of a chip on your shoulder, Michael. Many of us have sympathized with you about not being contacted by Colm. I have been trying to look at both sides, and the bigger picture, and I'm not alone in that. We all are hoping for a solution everyone can live with.
Zina, I'm not on his case. He said "I know now that I will never be able to convince you guys and gals of anything here" and "I have no delusions of convincing any of you of anything' the implication being that we're all against him -- including you. I'm trying to get the idea across that we aren't all against him, and I indicated where I sympathize with him. I also pointed out that I'm just trying to see both sides. So how is that getting on his case, Zina? Aren't you over-reacting a bit to what I said? Lots of chips on shoulders going around all of a sudden here.
I learned from Michael that you're against him too, Zina... do you agree with that -- it's what he said. I think you belong to the group he refers to as "you guys and gals" and "any of you." You think this is accurate?
According to Michael’s post you are in disagreement, Zina -- that's my point. I'm not disagreeing with him either, and I've said over and over I hope there's a resolution everyone can live with. There are a few people that were a bit harsh, but not all as Michael suggests. I don't think we're all going to rise up for either side's cause, but I see no harm in discussing the various aspects of the controversy. It might even be helpful. But again, Michael -- we aren't all against you.
Yup, but when you're upset and people criticize you, you feel like everyone is criticizing you, especially when everyone isn't exactly jumping up and down with eagerness to rush to your support, either. I can understand that, and make allowances.
Even for apparent chips on shoulders. ;)
It's essentially a no-win-win problem, really. As you say, I hope a solution is found that works for everyone. But talking about it in public, especially when principals of the situation are present, isn't exactly guaranteed not to raise a few hackles.
Look, no offense to anyone, but I really think, as a principal to this, that I should graciously bow out. It's a no-win argument for me, and I apparently never seem to say things that don't just get picked apart. Perhaps that is the nature of discussion groups like this. I don't know. I have not participated hardly at all before this thing got going. I just keep on getting sucked in to the conversation, and I don't think it's a good thing for me to do. Thank you all.
Michael, what do you want from us? We sympathize with your frustration about Colm failing to reciprocate with your attempts to talk with him about it. Until we hear his side we can't arrive at any fair conclusions. This thread wasn't intended as a place to win or lose arguments about it; I just wanted to discuss it. I'm glad you had the chutzpa to contribute. It would be nice to hear from Colm, but I doubt he has time for this website. I really do hope he contacts you, but that's all I can do at this point. It’s not up to any of us anoraks on this website anyway, but I’m sure everyone hopes it gets resolved amiably.
Well, I'll just add my two cents. I have played and guested with the Atlanta based Collies for many years now on uilleann pipes and flute mainly. They are great friends of mine and I have recorded extensively with Michael and the other members on various projects and count myself privileged to call him a friend. He and his family have helped me out in personal situations many times and they are terrific folks. It's a great group with tight players and it's fun to have a break from the more hard-core traditionalist route I usually take with other groups I play in (and I tour playing trad music for a living, so I know what I'm doing) and draw on other musical influences as well. Obviously I'm a little biased from the start.
I had a great amount of respect for Colm (as a flute player myself, I think his playing (and singing) is brilliant). I've never met him and as such certainly cannot take it upon myself to comment on his character. All I'll say is this. I've been based in Atlanta for well over a year now and in that time have watched Michael become more and more frustrated in his many attempts to contact Colm. Filing a lawsuit? We never even considered that possibility in the beginning. Why would we have had to? Who ever would have guessed this would have drawn out to the point that it has? We are puzzled and frustrated over this to no end. We have been friendly and professional about wanting to resolve this issue amicably. Colm absolutely will not talk to us and we don't know why. I think you can all appreciate that after so many months, we are bound to get a little miffed. This issue is spinning way out of control now and the hardest part is the we don't know why. All I can say is that I definitely can vouch that Michael has tried his very best to establish a dialog with Colm and his hit a brick wall at every turn. I tend to be the first person to give everyone the benefit of a doubt, as I like people (especiallly if they are musicians) and I hate to antagonize anyone, it's just not worth the effort or bad feelings for anyone involved. But it's getting harder and harder for me to believe that somehow Colm is oblivious to all of this, and frankly I'm starting to become disgusted by the whole thing.
In other thoughts, Hey Zina! Long time no hear and Mike Dugger says hi.
Hey Zac! Hope things are going well with you! Tell Dugger that Dave Finestine says hello, as do Pat and Sam. And I still love the bow beyond belief. Hugs to you!
Wow, that's some nice stuff there, Zac. I'd no idea you'd moved to Atlanta, that you were still touring with Mike (and, oh, please give him *my* love too!), that you'd played with the Collies, or that you were playing with Sean! Turn my back, and look at you! Say hello to Sean for me, too, would you?
I was *ignoring* you, Bliss dear. I knew who you meant. If Jack and I haven't figured out by now how to argue but still end up the night with our heads down over the tunes, shoulder to shoulder, nobody can.
At the end of the day the Atlanta group took that name first. No group has the right to copy it regardless of the circumstances. As for the argument that one group play Irish music and the other play Celtic; it doesn't matter. They could be a heavy metal group and and a jazz group and the situation would be just as bad. Personally I wouldn't cross the road to listen to either group anyway! I find it strange that one band would pick such an awful name never mind two!!!!! They are about as creative with their names as they are with their music!!!!!!!!!!!
I wouldn't make a comment like that if I hadn't heard them. Perhaps you don't like my favourite musicians and bands. Nowadays Irish music is so diverse that there will be bands that some people like that others won't. I find it incredible that I could be criticized just because I don't like a certain band. If somebody didn't like my music I obviously wouldn't agree with them, however I'd accept their opinion like any other. Having a go at somebody in regards to their music preferences is pretty shalow in my view.
I'm accepting your opinion; I was making an assumption. So I was wrong and you have heard the Sligo band. Now I'm more amazed at your statement. The Sligo based band has received rave reviews across the board and enjoy wide spread airplay all around Ireland from what I've heard myself listening to online Irish radio. No offense, but now I'm wondering what you consider good Irish trad is because your taste has come into question.
I have a hard time believing that having another band share your name is worse than being internationally known as the guy who shut down a bunch of good traditional musicians. IMHO, if there was a better way to destroy several years of hard-earned good-feeling among trad music fans, I can't think of it. It's clear that the Atlanta collies are not looking for sympathy, but they clearly aren't looking for good PR either. They could have rightfully springboarded off the Irish collies success and earned universal good feeling (and Colm would be the one owing a big favor to the Atlantans); but instead it appears that they chose to drag everyone into the mud, and will likely destroy everything they built themselves--even if they are in the right (which they probably are, at least legally). I'm no bible scholar, but King Solomon would be amused.
If this continues, the band name "The Border Collies" will be eternally connected with this mess. Colm O'Donnell, on the other hand, will still be a beautiful musician and will continue to be well known around the world for that at least. Let's hope the members of the Atlanta Collies can emerge from this so comfortably.
I highly doubt Colm will emerge from this mess unscathed, Georgi. Fortunately in Irish music, this sort of thing doesn't occur often as ego is usually the last thing on the minds of most players. however, there are still the occasional musicians that are amazing players and also extremely disagreeable people as well. The fact that they are brilliant musicians is no excuse for their behavior. This music is about people in the first place. I've never met Colm, as I 've remarked before, but if the man won't even speak to us or explain his side of the story or try to help fix this problem in any way and only continues down this particular path, what does that say about his character? Words aside, his actions are speaking for themselves. The fact that he is a great musician won't save his personal reputation.
Hiya, George! Good to see you're alive and kicking! Anyway, more to the subject, I can empathize with both sides on this thing. There's lots of "should haves" and such on both sides, in actuality, and I personally don't actually know if Solomon would be amused or not.
I have to say, the fact that Colm won't contact the band after repeated tries over several years by the Atlanta group looks bad on his part. I don't know Michael, but I would hope accomodation could have been and still could in fact be worked out by good will and action on both sides -- the fact that he's a good friend of Zac's and others who've chipped in their two cents leads me to believe that he's probably also a good guy. (As, in fact, are most people; I don't know anyone who wakes up and starts each day by saying something along the lines of, "What can I do to ruin somebody else's day today?")
Whether anyone is a lovely musician isn't the actual issue, from what I can see. if someone is a lovely musician and an axe murderer, I'll still call the police, if they've left any limbs with which to do so.
Heh. Yes, I do, but not in that particular instance. I knew what I was saying and what I'd better say following because I knew nitpicky jerky-minded people would jump on it. Ahem. *smirk*
I never meant to suggest that Colm O'Donnell would come out of this unscathed. In fact, this will probably inconvenience him rather badly. He has had to cancel his tour of the states, and he may not be able to sell the CD here.
Nor did I mean to suggest that his quality as a musician excuses anything (but we still haven't heard his side of the story yet--and I suspect we won't hear it here, at least). I don't know the man. He may be a complete louse, or he may be a lovely fellow. I've no idea. However, I do know that I like his music, and that I am not so thoroughly convinced of his poor character that I feel a need to boycott him. Other people will no doubt feel differently.
I really only meant to suggest that EVERYBODY is going to get hurt here--including the fans, and the Atlanta collies. If any Irish music fans didn't know about the Atlanta collies, it would appear that the Atlanta collies have now introduced themselves... For better or worse.
I'd like to think that I'm not one to make accusations of poor character (at least not intentionally), but it seems safe to say that Colm's actions (or inactions, as the case may be) are not the only actions speaking here, and what people around the world hear everybody's actions saying will likely depend on how many people can be convinced that the legal avenue was really *necessary* here--and as we've seen by the length of this thread, this can be a hard argument to sell. I'm afraid the Atlanta collies might be explaining this one for a long time to come (even if they did have the right, which I am not disputing)... I certainly don't envy their new-found fame.
At the end of the day, I'm most disappointed that I won't likely get to hear the Irish collies perform now. I am a great fan of their music, and I think Irish fans and musicians alike all over the USA would have enjoyed the chance to hear them, whatever they decided to call themselves. I was looking forward to that tour. It's too bad that Colm didn't return calls, and it's too bad that Michael decided that the name collision was so important as to warrant getting a lawyer to shut them down. It's all very disappointing.
At any rate, I hope this doesn't become a common occurrence...
Yes, I've rather wondered whether the reason why no one has heard from him is because he's been told by his attorney not to make any public (and possibly private) comments.
Yeah, it's a shame that it didn't get worked out before a tour was booked and all, and now probably it'll all have to get ironed out before they can come over this side of the pond. But then, I've been waiting for this really stellar fiddler and teacher to come back out to Colorado, he's from Boston, maybe you've heard of the guy, this George Keith person?
What about "The Real Border Collies", "The Official Border Collies", "The Provisional Border Collies". Sounds familiar if you are from Ireland, but really this is all a nonsense. A simple change to "The Sligo Border Collies" would suffice. After all, Sligo is more or less on the border.
But I fear not, the Irish ambivilence towards the law and the US of A craze for litigation will win the day I fear. No winners after that.
I just had a listen to the band on your advice Jack...and they are very good arent they, lovely schtuff. Even mores the pity that they are caught up in all of this.
Their tunes are great of course, and the singing is stellar. I really like the way they arranged that Andy Stewart song, and even though "Wylde Mountain Thyme" has been worn out at every Plastic Shamrock event around these parts -- I was spellbound when I heard Colm's daughter sing it. It was as if I was hearing it for the first time. Maybe who's to blame is a big scandal and all, but it's still a pity none-the-less that they had to cancel their tour of the States.
More name trouble - the tartan Andy was singing and recording long before my former school buddy, so Blairgowrie Andy had to use his middle initial for professional purposes.
If the "Border Collies" have recorded "Lover's Heart", that's an Andy M. Stewart song, not an Andy Stewart song. Confusing, isn't it?
It strikes me though, that there are similarities in the 2 cases here. Despite them both having been christened with the same names, to which they both have a legal right, a lot of hassle [ but not always confusion , it seems ], was avoided by Andy M. modifying the name he uses in his profession.
I suggest the Sligo "Border Collies" do the same - end of problem.
And miguel404 - "Georgia Satellites" - great band! "Battleship Chains" !!! I'm sure I saw a poster for them here in Aberdeen a month ago, but I'd missed them.
Yes, another post on this. Not here to add flames; I just happened to be in a band with Miguel in 1998 when he first suggested we change our name to the Border Collies, and then went on to form his own band.
Different comments, petty and wise, aside, here's a lesson for any of us doing the music - it's not smart not to do your homework, or to ignore a problem when it's first presented to you. Colm cost himself and his band money, and Miguel money, but not doing the sensible and reasonable thing in the first place and nipping the problem right then and there when he first heard the band name was already taken. He has fostered bad feeling since then by staying absolutely silent on this matter. That's terrible business. What a waste. Music is a hard enough business as it is without doing something so absolutely self-defeating.
Then there are things like when Seamus Egan's lawyer contacted the label where my friend, Seamus Egan, had just released a banjo CD, and they told him to cease and desist using his name. It turns out that my friend Seamus is actually older than Seamus Eagan with the lawyer. In other words -- my friend had the name first. hmmmmm
I think that Jack has hit the nail on the head there. It's got nothing to do with a band 'stealing' another band's name. NEITHER of these bands has the right to 'own' the name 'The Border Collies' any more than I have the right to 'own' the name 'mark'. What if, as a successful graphic designer, I was to hire some lawyer to say that only I, in the entire world, could call myself Mark and practise Graphic design? Eh?
Why don't they both call themselves the Border Collies, and accept that, if it causes confusion, then so bloody what? It doesn't actually matter. If someone ends up going to a gig and sees the wrong band, so what? What if Haydn had copyrighted the word 'Symphony' (You can bet your f*cking arse that if Ronald MacDonald had written a symphony and the title was in the public domain it would now be a title that only McDonalds could use).
What have EITHER Border Collies people got to worry about? As a graphic designer, I deal with this sort of crap every day. If someone playing traditional music wants to play Corporate, 'I own this name' games, in my opinion, they deserve anything coming their way.
Bloody Capitalists!!!!!!!!
Then there's Paddy O'Brien and Paddy O'Brien. Not to mention Sean Ryan (fiddler) and Sean Ryan (whistler). There's probably a few more like this as well.
Yes Jack, but it is much easier when one has no pulse...
Did you ever try to post a message that you really worked and debated over posting, only to have been logged off. Perhaps it is a sign...so I won't retype the rest of this one...
There seem to be a lot of things being brought up here that are completely beside the point. I live in the Atlanta area and have played with Miguel in sessions and onstage, and know him to be a an individual with a helpful and generous heart who would not court trouble. Which band is more trad? It doesn't matter, the Atlanta Collies were using it first, and Colm was aware of it. Which band do you like better? Again, doesn't matter. My own playing is more tradition oriented than the Atlanta Collies', but I respect the enthusuiasm Miguel has brought to his music and his growth in respecting the tradition while following his own muse. This is simply a matter of fair play, politics, charges of "cultural imperialism" (hey, how many Irish bands have appropriated American musical forms?) or anti-capitalist sentiment. (I'm left of center, myself) are irrelevant. Think the name is lame? Again, irrelevant, pro or con.
Miguel had a band, has worked hard over the years to establish and promote it, and the Irish Collies were very aware of its existence. IMHO, the Sligo Collies are the ones that need to do the right thing. More trad credentials or greater exposure doesn't make what they did right. BTW, I've met Colm here in Atlanta. Personable guy, wonderful musician.
Yes, but neither of them are going to be the Rolling Stones, are they? This is just a storm in a teacup. All this stuff about what's right or wrong is irrelevant . If the 'Sligo Collies' had said "Yeah, what a great name, I'll borrow that for my little band 2,000 miles away!" and had gone off, worked bars and clubs round Sligo, but had never got catapulted into the International touring arena, all this legal stuff and unpleasantness would have never come up. For all Michael/Miguel knows, I might have been earning a tidy packet working the a band called the Border Collies here in Oxfordshire (IreIand's missing county) for the last eight years(!) I still don't see what the Atlanta band are complaining about - this is their one chance at acheiving fame and fortune - "We're the the band who the Border Collies got their name from!"
Mark I'm with you on this one, what does it matter? (Oh no, Mark, we have the same name - right that's it [pouts and stamps foot] my mummy gave me my name and my mummy's always right so now I'm going to take you to court and *force* you to change it!)
If I were Miguel I'd treat the experience positively and I'd be like "wow thanks for giving us an excuse to change our name to something good". Then I'd change the name of the band to something catchy and unique and forget about the whole thing. It's really not something to get your knickers in a twist over. That's the problem with us in our cosy Western world - we can't see the wood for the trees. We spend heaps of money on something as ridiculously insignificant as this and let it snowball and ruin our lives, and we don't see that, relatively speaking, other people have it a whole lot worse, and, relatively speaking, our problems are easily dealt with. Instead we whinge on and on about it and try and justify our position to others using the Western logic of "if someone sh*ts on you, throw money at it and sh*t on them back". Whinge whinge whinge. We try and convince everyone that it's simply a matter of "fair play" - a case of "we were here first so obviously we're in the right"... not allowing ourselves to see that there might be... just might be... a grey area, and that there *is* no right. We don't see that there are other ways out, other simple solutions that would avoid the stress and financial hassle for everybody. We stop listening to those around us who are giving us advice because we think they are criticizing us and judging us rather than giving advice. We think "why should I listen to them - I'm *right* god damn it, and that's all there is to it!"
Just stop and think for a minute: what are you fighting for? What are you getting so upset about? It's really silly. Stop it. Change your name, and put the money you would have used on the court case to good use instead of throwing it away on something so bloody unimportant in the big scheme of things. How about giving it to charity instead? No hang on I'm forgetting who I'm talking to here, maybe invest it instead and gleefully watch the money grow before your eyes Get a perspective on things for godssakes and lose the "I am right so by logic you must be wrong" ego trip. If the Sligo Collies were wrong to take your name, you're wrong to be bothered by it.
This sort of stuff belongs on "Judge Judy" guys, seriously.
Excuse me, right or wrong is irrelevant? Michael tried to research the name thoroughly before using it. Colm knew exactly what he was doing when he appropriated the name and the logo. No matter who's better known, the Sligo Collies owe the Atlanta Collies some acknowledgement if they plan to play on this side of the pond, or even if they don't. It's a matter of respect and fairness.
"It's a matter of respect and fairness"... *sigh* - you're still using up that valuable energy whinging about it. If the BC's were my band, I'd accept that this has happened and that the other party had decided to dig their heels in. I'd cut my losses and walk away, and channel my energy into revamping my band under a different and much cooler name. Treat the whole experience as a positive thing.
Just an idea for anyone involved with the BC's: why not start a new thread and get some members here to think up a catchy new name for the band - I'm sure people would be glad to help...
Dow, I think the point is that the Atlanta Collies *like* their name. Even if you think its naff.
God, why oh why has this thread not died yet!!?? Anyhow - I dont see why the Atlanta collies should change their name - after this thread I doubt there will be anyone who doesnt know which band is which.
Hehe you're right Beebs. You know how they've met each other? Maybe the two bands decided to do this whole scandal as a publicity stunt That means that Jack's in on it - that figures I always knew there was something dodgy about him Well the scam has worked for me - I hadn't heard of either band till this thread. But if that's not the case and it's just that they like the name, well, good luck to them. Throw some money at it and take it to court if you think it's worth it cuz that's your only option other than walking away from it. If you're gonna do that though, stop whinging about how everything's so unfair and just get on with it.
I'm going to set my dogs on this thread if it doesn't die soon.
Hey it might have got intteresting if we could have enticed someone from the Sligo Mob into the fray, but............
Sit, Lie down, Roll Over and Die.
You can't just kill a thread like that Donough.
You need to engage an *attorney* and petition the court for a *thread shut down order*.
Where's your respect?
My Retriever is just aching to take these Collies to pieces - she never did like them anyway. They think they're the bees knees just because they chase sheep around.
Can we make this into the thread about what dog do you have or like?
I'm a sucker for border collies - they're so cute and well-behaved. I also like labradors and retrievers because I like the way their head feels when you stroke them, sort of round and square at the same time. But anyway I think I prefer cats.
Do we have to talk about dogs? I can't whinge about dogs - there's no issue to get my teeth into, unless we talk about the dangerous dogs act and how my friend got knocked over by a pit bull kelpie cross in the park in the middle of the night and mauled and the owner was just standing there doing nothing about it and now my friend still has pain and back problems from falling over.
The thread would have died long ago if it hadn't been for the silly off-topic comments and insults, don't you think?
Anyone here ever have the problem of showing up to a gig, getting a confused look from the bookers, and hearing the words "you're not who I booked?" It's happened to rock bands, it's happened to country bands, in all sorts of cases it happens. In an age when the world truly is smaller, there is an internet, and you meet the other guy face to face for chrissake, there is no excuse for not doing the homework to increase your chances of having a unique and memorable name.
Anyone here ever hear of an American band called Clan na Gael?
They realized after a short time that they had made a mistake, the name was used by others, it caused too much confusion, and, even though they did have CDs out under that name, they changed their name to Seven Nations. They had a good band, with a lot of fans, but they were the latecomers. They handled the problem as quickly as possible and there were no lasting bad effects.
Those of you asking what does a name matter anyway:
I was in a business seminar yesterday where the speaker asked the audience what is the number one most important thing to remember when you are talking to someone, or remembering someone? What they do? What they look like? No. It's the name. It matters most to the person or entity wanting to be remembered, and it matters most for someone tyring to remember them. Especially in business: a single name becomes an entire description in many cases. Nike. The Beatles. Trump. Beckham. You don't just see the name, you get the whole picture. So don't dismiss the power of a name, even if you are not socially adept enough to think it is important.. Think about that the next time someone just can't seem to remember your name, or gets you mixed up with somone else. If it happens in a business situation it's more than embarrsassing, it can cost you.
Unlike those of us stuck with the choices of our parents, (and even we can choose to change that if we like) bands get to choose their names. It doesn't matter what you think about Michael/Miguel's choice for a band name, Colm made a poor choice by going ahead and continuing to use a name that he knew was already being used.
The only question that remains in any of this is, what is Colm's problem with communicating with people? I don't care what kind of musician he is, in this point. This is about business sense.
So is this is about "fair play", or is it about "business sense"? To me the two are an obvious contradiction in terms. As far as I see it, that is where the problem lies. It's not about the name, or the band, or right and wrong - it's about attitudes. But then I'm not a businessman so what would I know? I'm also not involved in a court dispute at present, so there you go...
"The thread would have died long ago if it hadnt been for the silly off-topic comments...'''
"even if you are not socially adept enough to think its important"
Sorry Sandra - I think the only question remains is "why isult people for expressing an opinion that differs from yours"?
While you might not like all the opionions expressed, your post will certainly not change minds, well mine at least. If this was the kind of thing you learnt in Business School then that was a waste of $25.
Maybe people are getting off topic and having a joke because at this stage its obvious that this situation is way beyond coming to a happy ending, thus chatting and having a joke - lightening the sitiuation may be the only option left.
Anyhow - who ever heard of *anyone* making a profitable business out of trad (aside from riverdance and we all have our own opinions about that being trad).
I'm not that impressed by business sense. That sort of sense has given us Global warming, Poisoned seas, Wars for oil - the list goes on. I don't think the name NIKE is meant to give the whole picture at all. It isn't meant to portray forced sweatshop labour in poverty stricken countries, is it? It doesn't convey the reality that this company doesn't actually make trainers at all, but just sources and markets them. If you think it's 'socially adept' to be suckered by bloated capitalists then your world outlook is slightly different from mine
A band that plays for money is a business. That's why a lot of us avoid being in them. That's why we aren't automatically on the same wavelength as musicians in bands who come on this board with their problems.
This board is called 'The Session', not 'The Band'
And personally, I thought this thread had stayed remarkably on-topic, compared with many (no sexual innuendo, no references to bizarre clothing or Cow Tipping etc.).
As far as insults go, I did say "Bloody Capitalists!!!!!!!!" But that wasn't really meant to be taken THAT seriously...
I apologize to the board for that last remark. I couldn't find a way to remove it. It's obvious when someone just loves to bait people, like Dow, but when it's early in the morning, it's sometimes hard not to rise to the bait.
There's a number of trad people who have made a business of the music, and they understand how difficult it is.
Sorry for baiting you Sandra. Most people on this board know me well enough to ignore me You don't have to apologise for your comment - I was rather impressed by it actually and it made me laugh.
Yeah - just meant out of 9 billion people there werent *that* many who've made good business out of trad. Couldnt do it here in Oz...but of course thats only to be expected isnt it.
Border Collies Scandal
Border Collies Scandal
Have you guys heard that the Sligo-based band, The Border Collies, have cancelled their US tour on account of pressure being brought to bear by the attorney for the Atlanta-based band with the same name?
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Could they become "Border Poodles" or something else? I guess it doesn't sound as dramatic. Makes me think of "Lassie" of American TV fame. Did she have a litter?
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Border Collies Scandal
They already produced CDs and what-have-you with The Border Collies on them. All of the venues have already produced their advertisements with the name as well. I was thinking they could add, "From Sligo," but there's a lot more to the story that's still unreported perhaps.
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
What about "THE BORDER alCOhoLLIEcS"?
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by Beheader
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"Sligo Border Collies"?
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Border Collies Scandal
No I hadn't.
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Ceol... they can't change their name at this point other than adding a sticker that says something like, "From Sligo."
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I read about this a while ago. Sounds like a rather nasty business.
You can read one side of it at: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/centohiotrad/message/629
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Thanks for the link, FMT, it's a mess indeed. Bad blood brewing as well. I was following along right with him until he said, "We can then have a strong legal basis to sue the bastards" and then realized this could get ugly.
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Ugly indeed. I'd really like to read some of the other bands perspective, but I haven't been able to find anything.
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: Border Collies Scandal
They wouldn't be the first band or artist who's had to change their name because an existing band or artist with that name objected.
Squeeze of "Up the Junction" fame had to be "UK Squeeze" in the USA and wherever else the writ of the other Squeeze ran large.
I think it's something you just have to be careful about when you get bigger than just playing your local pubs and start to make CDs, have a website and tour internationally. It seems from the Atlanta Collies' version, Colm O'Donnell was not only careless of this, but wilfully so.
Perhaps they will have to come up with an alternative name if they wish to tour America. We used to have a Border Collie Cross. Maybe that's what they could be. Then again, a Queensland Blue Heeler is a breed related to Border Collies (and dingoes I think). But there are already bands called the Dingoes (now defunct) the Blue Healers (Aus blues band) and I'm sure there is a "Kelpies" (another Australian breed related to Border Collies and dingoes, from the Scottish word) somewhere. "Irish Wolfhounds" just sounds naff, and the Old Blind Dogs are Scottish.
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by Bren
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"Irish Wolfhounds" This would be the type of name a band from some remote location in the US would call themselves.
# Posted on May 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
This sounds like an issue for real legal counsel from someone that knows the music industry. There might be a way to change the name of the Irish group, but then have to renegotiate for the concerts. Bailing out on an entire tour could come back to haunt them in negotiating future contracts.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Surely Colm O'Donnell's group is a proper Irish band playing Irish music. The Atlanta Border Collies are an American band playing 'Celtic' music.
And they have a cellist, fer chrissakes.
Why don't the Atlanta band just do the decent thing and call themselves The Border Coyotes?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Lassie never had a litter because she was (usually) a boy dog.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by ScottC
Re: Border Collies Scandal
'The Connaught Heifers' would be a good name, but I suspect it's already been used - the last thing they want is someone else threatening court action. Anyway, they're mostly men.
What about 'The Border Collie's B*ll*cks'?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I don't know what the big fuss is all about.
The band in Atlanta says they formed in 1999... the Sligo band says they formed in 2002.
It's pretty clear that the Sligo group would be causing some confusion for the first band (Atlanta).
You surely don't see any bands around called "You 2" , or "You Too", or the like.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Tunes!
Re: Border Collies Scandal
From the link provided by FiddleMeThis:
It seems that another band in Ireland that knows us has decided to use our band name for their own. Their leader, Colm O'Donnell, actually told me about this the last time we were there, in the summer of 2003. He also mentioned that he liked the t-shirt I gave him so much that he copied the printing (complete with the logo) to use for his own, new band as well. I told him face to face that I didn't think this was cool, and shrugged it off. I was appalled, but couldn't do much at the time, right there in Ireland.
..............
So, if this is true, the Sligo band is just a blatant rip-off of the Atlanta group.
"Not cool", indeed.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Tunes!
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I think Colm O'Donnell is a sheep farmer and a breeder of Collies. So I guess he is not too interested in changing the group's name at this stage. The question is why he picked that name knowing full well that there was already a group by that name in USA. He would have had to know that this would mean trouble if he tried to tour across the Atlantic.
I suspect that he will just leave this matter lie and forget touring the group. They only got together to try and win a competition -which they won. The recorded CD was the product of that so he's probably happily back at his sheep farming now.
Anyway it is a shame that someone from the group doesn't give the world their side of the story.
BTW: Unleashed is a great album and Colm has a great voice. I'll bet the Collies have no trouble obeying a master with a voice like that.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Donough
Re: Border Collies Scandal
What a nasty mess. The leader of the Atlanta band happens to be a friend of mine, but regardless of that, I always have to come down on the side of whoever had the name first. Some more friends of mine also had their band name usurped by another band who went through the process of making the ripoff legal. I don't know what the ultimate legality is in that sort of case, but I do know what's fair.
My wife and I have been using a band name for nearly twenty-five years, and I've heard of another group in the Northeast also using the name. I won't mention the name because I don't want to stir up trouble.
I suppose the moral is, If you like your band name, get it registered.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Maybe the US of A should invade Ireland to "liberate" the name. You could all join up, get free transport to Ireland, and then go AWOL when you get here, to attend "The Session" gathering.
I know it sounds a bit drastic, but think of all the red headed ladies here.
And think of the enjoyment "Dow" will get from reading more blethering.
I will surely get a Sainthood after my demise for being such a helpful guy.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
That is horrible alright.
Kinda reminds me of the time when an American company came to Australian and copyrighted the word 'Ugh' as in 'Ugh boot' which is what aussies have been calling them since time began and obviously no one had previously put it under copyright. Why would they? Its like putting 'Gum tree' or 'The opera House' under copyright.
Anyhow - since that day nobody is allowed to Advertise Ugh boots as Ugh boots because the words are owned by an American company. Bizarre.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Oh - I totally missed my point previously - what led me onto that rant is the fact that the original border collies want to sue over it. Do people not think that is a little bit harsh. It seems to me that American culture is just so easy going about suing people etc. you really dont get it much anywhere else in the world. I totally think it was wrong of the other lads *if* that is the way it really happended. And lets face it its about 3rd internet hand at least. But still, suing!!?? Do they even play the same kind of music? Cause as far as I'm concered there is a major diffrence between 'Celtic' Music and "Irish" music.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
...I'm considering to change name to my new band...the current name is "The Chieftains".
What di you think...I must change it?
...."Altan" would be better?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by gian marco
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I have felt the same way Donough does. Colm probably used the name thinking they probably wouldn't win the CD contest, and he never expected it would lead to possible US tours. That's why I think everyone should relax and let the Sligo band slap some stickers on their stuff that says "from Sligo" so they can do their tour and go back home. I really don't get the feeling he wants to become a touring band for any length of time from the interviews I've heard and from talking to him myself in Ennis. Their CD is my current favorite for listening BTW.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I could understand the fuss if the name wasn't so pathetic... really, would you actually cross the street to hear a band that couldn't think of a better name than "The Border Collies"?
Well, it won't matter - betcha one or both bands folds within the year. The money in regional touring isn't worth the headache Atlanta Band is bringing out, and the odds of any band (particularly one playing "Celtic" music - ick) breaking past that are something less than "not good", perhaps better than "snowball's chance in hell", but not by much. Add in a legal fight, and you've pretty much written your obituary.
If you're thinking of starting a band, there are a number of object lessons here, take your pick. A free shakey egg to anyone who spots them all.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"Boundary Dogs" woould have been better!
Jim
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: Border Collies Scandal
How about this as a new name for the Border Collies:
"Scum-Bag Lawyers".
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by grymater
Re: Border Collies Scandal
They could clean up any suggestive sounding tune-names and become the Bowdler Collies.
(I won't bother explaining this if you don't know about Bowdlerisation - look it up)
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Border Collies Scandal
border collies are beautiful dogs with lots of good will and skill but musicality was not amongst them so far ... so my advice: no tears and change your name quick. maybe sligo dogs ....
matching names are common in music pro and semi pro scene. but aiming for "going real business" needs a unique name otherwise you promote the other ones with every gig you play.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by crannog
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I used to be in one of the Tir na n'Ogs. We toured from Lethbridge to Water Valley. We didn't get sued. Maybe once you get up around 30 or 40 bands with the same name nobody cares any more.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Jack, this clears up a nagging mystery in my mind. You raved about these fellas from Sligo and then when I searched the internet I found this Atlantean band. It shook my faith.
This makes one point. It serves neither band to have the same name, and the Sligo band should realize this as well. They should come to some sort of agreement. The Atlanta band has rights to the name as they can show first use. The Sligo band should change their name and use this tour to promote the band under the new name. The sticker they slap on their cds can have the new name on there.
We had a band take our name, but at least they eventually did the "right" thing and offer to pay us for the rights. Still, it does not sit well to have other people using the name. Especially when they play a different style of music. People in the area still go to their gigs expecting to see us.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Here Jode: http://theBorderCollies.net
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
A radical American group could be called Dawgs from Hell. However, I don't think Heavy Metal and ITM could ever mix. How about Border Doggies? Three Men, Two Women and a Border Collie? Old Blind Border Collies? Border Chieftains? Border O'Collies? Border Rovers? The Irish Setters? The Woofhounds?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Woohoo...especially nice banjo playing there. I'll bite.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Woof.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
NEWSFLASH: MAN BITES DOG Dateline St Paul, Minnesota, It was reported today that an incident took place where a man, Jode Dowling, bit a border collie dog on the banjo. Witnesses were horrified as they sat watching at a nearby cafe eating lunch.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Mmm...could use a little salt. Further updates can be found on the related post: Saliva Problems.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Watch for splinters, Jode.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Don't fret Zina, I know just where and when to bite!
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Hoooooooowwwwwwl. Ow. That hurt, Jode. *smirk*
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Oh, sorry, I didn't know you were tuning GDAD. I often tune ADAD, but it's hard keeping track of which tune I am playing. What was I saying?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
In the 80's there were two bands called The Beat; one in England and one in the USA. In the United States, the British band became The English Beat. If they would just become, while in American, the Sligo Border Collies, the problem would go away.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Craymcla
Re: Border Collies Scandal
You can't hear the bodhran on the recordings of the Sligo Border Collies. What do the others sound like?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
The bodhran is there in a nice way -- tasty playing.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Tasty. It's a war drum remember.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"It's a war drum remember." - Blisster
Not when applied to ITM, but I suppose it depends on your attitude.
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Jode: Its not politically correct to bite someone on the "G" string!
Glister and Blister: you guys are developing a routine. Can I book you for a US tour. What name would you want to steal, ...er, I mean use?
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Blick
# Posted on May 2nd 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I hope this mess can be sorted out amicably.I have heard the Sligo based band and their music is a great taste of the tradition.It's a shame if the people in the US miss the opportunity to listen to them
# Posted on May 3rd 2005 by banjoian
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I cerainly hope that things get worked out between both bands.
# Posted on May 4th 2005 by miguel404
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Let me add this. Before we started using the name BorderCollies in 1999, we were very carefull to research the name and make sure no one else was using it. My research showed that it had never even been used before. The whole issue here has to do with the fact that we established the band and band name, and, with al lot of effort, have built and maintained arguably one of the best Celtic bands in the state of Georgia. It deeply saddens me that another musician (let alone a great and well-respected one such as Colm O'Donnell) would deliberately decide to use our band name for his own. The last thing we ever expected to do was to ever have to defend our band name like this. To me, it's the craziest thing that I've ever had happen in the 30 odd years that I've been a pro musician. We have made every effort to contact Colm (after my last meeting with him in Ireland in the July of 2003, where he told me to my face not only of using our name for his own, but also copying the t-shirt with logo for his new band). I was shocked, and caught completely off-guard for this, but did manage to tell him that I didn't think it was a cool thing to do at the time. We are still hoping to be able to open a dialogue with Colm and work out a reasonble compromise. After all, this band name thing is not a unique situation, and has happened many times before, all with the same results. In Georgia, I used to do some gigs in the 80's with a band called the Satellites. After they got a big hit ("Keep Your Hands to Yourself") they became the Georgia Satellites, because someone else had an earlier claim to that name. Many of your suggestions alude to something like that, and the idea of using stickers on their present CD inventory is perfectly acceptable to us. They can make the change and still tour over here - no problem. I apologize for my angry statement earlier about "suing the bastards". That was letting my anger get the better of me. I just want this to get settled quickly, so we don't have to waste any more time, energy and money over something so basic. The lesson here seems to be that we all have to respect each other, as musicians, as artists and a human beings. I'm sure all of you must agree with that. I would hope that maybe one of you can get word to Colm. He seems to not be resonding to anyone about this. I certainly would like to hear from him.
# Posted on May 4th 2005 by miguel404
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I have been watching this for many months now and have stayed out of the discussion because of many reasons. One reason is that i played for a while with the Atlanta based band when I first moved to America. Another is that I run a website and write about music from Ireland and America (and many other countries) and I thought that there might seem to be obvious bias because of my history with the Bordercollies. I have also been totally immersed in three other projects over the past 4 months - a Tsunami relief collaboration CD called Hands Across The Water ( http://www.handsacrossthewater.com ) tour managing Altan and then coordinating all the aspects of Ciaran Tourish's solo release Down the Line. So I thought by the time all those projects were on course that this issue may have blown over. It hasn't so i will add my 2c (either euro or American) worth.
I have seen some embarrasing posts in various places from Irish people saying that The Bordercollies are an American band and don't play real Irish or Celtic music. That is partly true. They CAN play Irish music but the band draws on many influences and add their own sounds to it. But that isn;t the issue. Who says the BorderCollies is a name held only for an Irish band? I don't know Colm O Donnell at all or his music. He may be brilliant or he may be awful. That isn't relevant. It does seem to me though that someone who does not have the imagination to come up with a fresh new name and instead conveniently uses someone elses (as well as their tshirt design) can't have the imagination to make very good music.
I often work as a consultant to many big festivals and know all the big venues, promotors and agents in the US . I have already been asked about this matter from some small and medium sized venues and promotors. I have told them that in my opinion they should stay clear of booking the Irish Collies until some sort of agreement is reached with Colm and Michael. At least Michael deserves a call or mail from Colm and an apology.
I have had my differences with Michael while I was in the band musically but he loves his band, he loves the music and he has worked very very hard over the years to build up the following they have. I understand his passion and his anger over this as it wasn't merely an accidental coincidence but a blatant rip off of something that Michael clearly owns.
As an Irish musician I would ask Colm to do the decent thing and show the music community that he has the balls to be a bigger man. He could turn this into something really positive for both bands and open many doors over here in America that could so easily remain closed.
Thats it from me.. now I am going back to a really important issue of getting the Hands album on iTunes and in the stores so we can build some houses, schools and water supply facilities for some kids who have heard of neither band.
Stay well and safe
John Cutliffe
http://www.handsacrossthewater.com
# Posted on May 4th 2005 by JohnCuts
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I would like to hear from Colm as well, but I'm wondering if there isn’t some cultural differences that are coming into play here. I wonder if it’s perceived as more of a compliment that he adopted the name and t-shirt idea instead of theft. I also wonder if he saw the name in the context of the music scene in Ireland that has little to do with the States. The Atlanta based band would be unlikely to become an active player in Ireland the same way he probably thought the Sligo band would in the US. And he might have believed that the music they play would be enough to distinguish them from one another as well if they made the odd trip to the States.
At any rate, I don't think the Atlanta band has to feel threatened because I doubt that Colm and Co. have any aspirations to become very active within the same demographics that they operate in. I'm almost certain they would have done their tour and rarely ever come back. If they did it would probably be a far and few between sort of thing.
I wonder how the Atlanta based band would feel if this was the case.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
You sound very biased, Jack.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by miguel404
Re: Border Collies Scandal
And one of the things that kicked this into a higher gear was finding out that Colm and Co. were trying to play the same festivals as us, right here in the southeastern US. His US agent is based in the southeast US. By using our name and releasing a CD that's all over the internet and being sold worldwide via internet retailers, they've created confusion between the two bands. The other thing is, Caeri and I have played in Ireland before, by invitation from Colm's cousin. She also asked us to record with her over there, which we did at the Ceoltori in Dublin. The BorderCollies actually turned down a request to tour the UK and Ireland this past March and have an offer to tour over there in March of 2006. It's a small world we live in, and it's an even smaller but well-connected international Celtic community.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by miguel404
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"You sound very biased, Jack."
Maybe it does sound that way, but I guess I'm not ready to conclude that Colm is doing a coup d'état on your band. Until we hear from Colm we won't know for sure. What does Colm's cousin think of all this?
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
When I told her again at the Ceoltori (which by the way I felt honored to get invited to record at) She smiled and shrugged and smiled at me and said "Well, he does raise the dogs." Since then, she has stayed out of it, as she and I have remained very friendly and cordial. We certainly like playing with each other and like each other as people. I get the feeling it's a little embarassing to her, which I think is understandable. Perhaps that was my first inkling into the fact that many of the Irish don't see what the problem is - they're doing their thing over there and we do ours over here. Well, I totally agree with you about hearing what Colm has to say. That would be good to hear his side. You will ask when you speak to him again, won't you?
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by miguel404
Re: Border Collies Scandal
How many bands are there names "Gan Anim" Ive come across a few. I dont see them threatening to sue each other.
Does your band, and the other band even play the same kind of music? People may say it shouldnt matter, but it would if one of you were say a *rock* band and another a *traditional Irish band* its not as if you'd get the same crowds in the first place.
Anyhow - its a *word*, I just dont get how people can honestly get het up about a word. Since when did people decide to start bring in laws that say I can 'Own' this name. I mean, I know that they have (copyright etc) But its stupid and insignificant and there are so many other more interesting things to be getting worked up about.
I think its kinda petty to be honest. And it goes back to my thread about the American company copyrighting the *very* Australian word 'Ugh boot' - load of crap if you ask me. Which you didnt. So I shall go.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Whenever I hear stories about people suing and lawsuits and stuff over something so pathetically mundane, it always makes me annoyed. It definitely *is* an American thing, this suing at the drop of a hat, and the idea seems to be spreading to the UK and Australia. It always boils down to money, and that's all anyone ever cares about these days. And "Border Collies" is a crap name for a band. Anyway border collies are from the Scottish border region and although they're now an international breed, culturally they have little to do with either Ireland or the States. I think both bands should pull their heads out from their behinds before they turn themselves inside out, and damn well think up a decent band name. There, never been one to mince my words eh.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Yeah, I think that maybe people in Sierra Lione probably arent running about screaming 'oh my god! That guy just stole my word!"
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Cultural Imperialism, creepy or what.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I must admit when I heard the name Border Collies I immediately thought, as you would, that it would be a band from the Borders, but no, um, it's some band that has nothing to do with the Borders. It's like a band from France calling themselves the "Kookaburras". Don't you think Aussies would find that a bit weird?
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Are you two having fun? I thought so. Personally, I don't think it's just an American thing, but then I wouldn't, would I? We've been over your "cultural imperialism" thing before.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Ahh zeens, dont be mad
You can bop me on the head when you see me
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
You'll be in America, beebs, you can sue her for assault with a deadly bop.
Beeb-bop... hmmm
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
This is the sort of thing that makes me glad I'm not trying to make a living out of the music (not that I'd get very far anyway!). It sounds like the name was appropriated before the Irish band had any inkling that they were going to take off in the way they have. I suspect that threats of litigation (maybe not only an American thing, Zina, but one that certainly originated in America, and now spreading like cancer over the globe) make certain types of people less inclined to co-operate. I know that if I borrowed a clever sounding name for a band I'd put together for a barn-dance, and then I suddenly found myself more famous than the band I'd filched the name from (unlikely, I know, but...), an attempt to sue would probably make me assume that a) The original band was jealous of our success, and b) that they wanted to make some money out of our success, and c) that some loathsome and venal lawyer was spurring them on. As far as litigation in general goes, it's not those with a moral right to a name who tend to benefit, it's those with most money, and the lawyers. You only have to look at the example of McDonalds the multi-national money-hooverers vs. McDonalds the long established burger shop in Arbroath. In spite of the the Scottish fellow being able to trace his name back four centuries, and that the shop has been trading under that name for a hundred years, the fact that twenty years ago he started selling burgers means that he's encroaching on a right that McDonalds have conjured up in the States.
End of Rant
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I see you have a good source of income outside of the music. Last night on the way to the session, I passed a liquor store with a sign (the kind with the removable letters) that said: OTTERY TICKETS.
Anyway, another example kind of (but not quite) like the McDonalds one is with Anheuser-Busch's battle with the Czech brewer Budweiser-Budvar, maker of the original Budweiser. Until recently, you couldn't buy the Czech brew in the U.S. Finally, they reached an agreement (after 62 years) where the Czech beer is imported here under the name Czechvar.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I note also that the book Cloud Atlas has a character called Ottery who comes from the future. Is there something we haven't been told?
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by JerryH
Re: Border Collies Scandal
One day I'll introduce you all to Mrs Ottery, whose first name is Lotte ....
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Jerry, I've told you never to contact me here!
But seeing as you're here, we're planning to meet in the bar at the Town Hall for a pre Gig drink at about quarter to seven .. See you there?
What's Cloud Atlas?
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Hey I loved that little duet from Dow and beebs!
I'm not buying into this whole canine conundrum until someone gets word from Colm - that is when he has finished chasing his sheep around the hills of Sligo.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Donough
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Originated in America, Mark? That's bosh. It originated in England, silly boy. Or maybe China. Court systems pop up wherever there are civilizations, actually, but there are suits brought in those courts wherever people are wealthy enough to have the extra cash and time to do so. If those requirements are not met, there are no suits, which are time-consuming and expensive and take away from trying to grub your living out of the dust. And suits have existed, along with the prediliction for bringing them, since at least Hammurabi. (I mean, look at the Romans, for cat's sake.)
It's just that we've got a whole huge nation full of rich spoiled brats to point fingers, here in "modern" times with "modern" communications. (The rabbit ears are because "modern" never looks quite so "modern" after about 50 years or so.)
I'm not mad, beebs, but I do get tired of the kneejerk "American cultural imperialism" thing, it's lazy thinking and directs the energy away from actually trying to change people and how they think, because it's just a stereotype and not an actual example. You can't change how people think by utilizing stereotypes, really, all it does is back them up into a corner and make them defensive.
All of which is totally off the subject.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Ok, I think I'm going to make this my last post. It looks like most of you are choosing to ignore the true facts presented by myself and by John Cutliffe. You seem to be using this topic as a subject for your own agendas and grandstanding. Think of us what you will. It seems that the truth doesn't matter here, and there's tons of self-admitted bias, started by the discussion leader. As far as the recent comment about the type of music we make, why don't you visit our music site BB so can can listen and then bash us for that too. The site is at http://artists2.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/The_BorderCollies/
Oh, yeah, my wife's family happens to be from Carlisle (not PA) if that makes any difference, and we've played there a little bit as well, as well as Edinburgh. One of the pix on our News and Gigs page on our http://www.thebordercollies.com/news.htm
site is from when we were in Brampton, and there's also a shot at Colm's cousin's house in Sligo as well. Good day, gentlemen.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by miguel404
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Zina, you're being disengenuous. No one is saying that the Americans invented courts or the idea of using the courts to gain redress. Look at Oscar Wilde. You know we're just referring to the current wave of legal-profession-propelled litigiousness that seems to be sweeping the 'Western World'. We have people here threatening to sue schools when their kids fall off swings - it wasn't like that twenty years ago (I'm sounding just like my Grandad here). There was a time when suing someone was what stupid rich people did. Now there are lawyers and 'ambulance chasers' etc. who encourage people to make claims on the basis that they will only charge them if the claim is successful.
I rest my case, your honour...
And now I'm off to hear Cathal Hayden, Catriona Macdonald, Michael Doucet, Darol Anger, Bruce Molsky and Rushad Eggleston do their thing - should be a good gig!
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
And before I go ...(!)
Miguel, chill out man. Of course anyone is going to get ripped into if they say anything that make them sound like they take themselves seriously. It's a web message board not an Oxford debating society. It isn't a place to look for sympathy unless its for something serious like having your instrument stolen or something.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Firstly, I'm no "discussion leader," I just initiated the topic. I admitted that I was arguing from the Sligo band's perspective, but we have your perspective on the thread already, so I was offering a possible perspective from their angle. I also pointed out that we'll never know until Colm speaks up on the issue. My point has consistently been that there might be a less drastic measure to be taken than litigation. But again, until you hear from Colm your hands are tied, and I do sympathize with you on that point. The whole affair is unfortunate and I do hope something everyone can live happily with results.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Mark, I still don't think that's an American thing -- I think it's what happens when people have time on their hands and the luxury of money to hire lawyers with. American or not.
And Michael's already apologized for losing his temper and talking about bringing a suit. Everyone says stuff in the heat of anger that they don't mean later.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
If I understand correctly, the "litigation" was brought about after numerous attempts to solve the issue by the Georgia based group. I have to admit that it does seem odd that the Sligo based group hasn't come forth, one on one, to discuss this. It sounds like Michael simply wants to clear up the issue rather than make money off of a lawsuit.
Considering how vast the membership/lurkership this website has, it would be nice if the result of this discussion encouraged the conversation from the Sligo band.
I hope you are able to clear up the misuderstanding soon Michael, and best wishes for your band. I enjoyed your music from the links above.
Deb.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Irish people believe the law is to be ignored. Drunk driving, speeding, driving license, anything to do with driving, drinking or "ripping off" the system. They still think they are ruled by England and getting one over on them. They haven't realised they have been stealing from their own pockets since they had their own Government in 1922.
That is not to say that "The Border Collies" are trying to rip off the septic tanks. Not all Irish people are crooks, but they do have an ambiviance towards the law. Can you think of any other country were an elected representative can be found guilty of stealing over 6 million pounds of public money, and increasing his vote in the next election?
Hopefully all will be resolved. It's a stupid name anyway, or so my own Border Collie tells me.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
And Zina, the US of A even made a long running series called "Ally McBeal" highlighting the cultural obsession with suing people.
And like a lot of things American, it is spreading here, now that Britain is the 51st state, without voting rights, and the Irish always loved "An tOilin Or" (the Golden Island) as they called the US of A.
You can sue me if you think I am wrong.
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
*shrug* Well, sure, it's easier to go blaming someone else for your own society's ills, I suppose. *grin*
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
BRITAIN is the 51st state! Yes!! Now we can breathe easy up here in our igloos!
# Posted on May 5th 2005 by grego
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Well Zina, I've just got back from the concert (and a bit of a session in the bar there I'm afraid) and the boys from the US of A swept the board. Darol Anger and his lads charmed and seduced the audience. I loved the others, but Darol, for all his annoying faffing around with the mike stand, stole the night for me (and that's from someone who would have Catriona McDonald's babies any day of the week (except Mondays and Wednesdays, obviously, when I'm at sessions), and who worships Cathal Hayden like the father he wished he'd been born with or even to).
Hic!
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Cathal Hayden! Great player.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Whoa there Miguel!!!
To be competely honest I dont care about what kind of music you play or the other band plays. I have no interest in bagging you or your music out at all. That wasnt what I meant, just that if you both played different kinds of music then maybe it wouldnt be as bad than if you both did the exact same thing and had the exact same name.
If you notice my previous posts Miguel - you will notice that I said that it was "horrible". I also said *if* it were true. Well I'm really sorry - but you are a stranger that I am chating to on the Internet, so really until I see it for myself then I err on the side of caution. I never said that I beleived that it was or wasnt true. I have never heard of your band or the other band or any of the people invovled.
Are you honestly trying to tell me, that in the entire wide world there is not *one* other band called the "BorderCollies". 75% of the worlds population have never used a phone.....maybe they havent used the internet either.
My point was never taking sides or anything. If you re-read my posts Miguel - you will see that I was merely saying that I thought it was a bit of a stupid the whole litigation thing - and it wasnt directed at you but at a culture - which Zina rightly pointed out was me stereotyping again. Which was true and its something that I do from time to time, which I shouldnt.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
For future reference its 'bb' not 'BB' - thats someone else on the site - although he's usually getting yelled at for stuff so maybe he can just take the blame for me to - he's prob used to causing a stir by now
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
So Zina are you going to sue me for causing you mental anguish through sterotypizationism?
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Hey Zeens I'm not knocking yanks. Just some things are easier to recognise if you're looking from the outside in, yeah? Anyway, go easy on me - I'm not feeling very well today after having started a bar fight in the centre of Sydney and then having been sick all over my nice suburban street, much to the horror of the nice Indian woman who lives along the road. Maybe she'll sue me for causing her visual disturbization
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Dow, you're obviously racially prejudicialised against the inhabitationalists of the United States - just stop it before it escalisates any further!
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
To answer the question, no, why would I? Insofar as I know, that only happens on tv. *smirk* Or perhaps you're like Bliss and believe in what you see on TV?
Why should I go easy on you when you were such a dumbf*ck last night?! LOL
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Ok, I’m going to reluctantly add another post here to this discussion, just to clear the air and make another point or two. It seems kind of pointless, because this thing will be decided by some US Trademark/Servicemark attorney in Washington, and I know now that I will never be able to convince you guys and gals of anything here. I’ve spent two years actively trying to talk to Colm and settle this privately, before it escalated as it has. First of all, the only thing there has been as far as litigation is talk. The practicality of suing in a case like this is pretty remote, mostly due to the enormous costs and the tiny rewards. So anyone here thinking that I would be making any money is sadly mistaken. Part of my anger comes from the fact that I had to shell out $1,000 to file for the trade and service marks and hire an attorney to do it in the first place! That was $1,000 I didn’t have at the time (Visa anyone?) and certainly would rather have spent that $1,000 on taking my kids to the dentist or buying a baritone guitar (been really wanting a baritone acoustic lately) or a nice new mic for my studio. Believe me, I didn’t feel good about having to spend that money. If there were to be a suit and IF we won, we wouldn’t get any money, because Colm doesn’t have any money either. Worst case for him would be a judgment (and this is just my guess) where he might have to sell part of his herd to pay off his legal fees. What I am trying to achieve is to get him to cease and desist using my band name. At this, I will not rest. Someone mentioned getting sympathy for only things like having an instrument stolen. I’m not looking for your sympathy. And I could easier live with one of my Martin guitars being stolen than my band name, that I’ve spent six years now of very hard work and extreme adversity to maintain, promote and keep together. The Martins are insured, and I can always find another one. This is much, much more serious to me. And, lastly, the truly sad part is that Colm O’Donnell is, in my opinion, a brilliant musician with a lot of soul (as we Americans say) in what he does. The guy is, I believe, a multiple All-Ireland champion. I’ve seen him perform at two shows here at Emory and mesmerize the audience with his brilliant vocals, and I sessioned with him at Fado the following night and watched as he quieted down a very noisy American pub with a gorgeous ballad. He played some brilliant flute and easily kept up with the other wiz-kids All-Ireland champs half his age at the same session. So my point is, the saddest blow is that this disrespect, this theft of something so important to me is coming from a brilliant Irish musician, not some tosser-wannabe, not some snot nosed kid from the fields. And it’s so blatantly deliberate, and it just keeps going. I can’t for the life of me understand why he is doing this, because it’s like stealing another man’s song. Isn’t that what copyrights are for? Would any of you plagiarize a song that you didn’t write and call it your own? Of course not. This is not an Irish thing or an American thing – this has to do with honor among musicians – among fellow artists. It is theft of intellectual property. It is gross disrespect of a fellow musician. That’s my biggest beef. I think Colm has somehow backed himself into a corner here and can’t get out. His sitting silently, watching all of this (I’m pretty sure he and/or his cronies are reading along here guys) and he’s just letting this thing roll along. Well, I wish he’d find a way out that corner. He’s losing out on airplay and touring and CD sales over here and if we get the trademark and service registrations and he persists, there’s no telling what else he’ll lose. For sure, he won’t be able to tour or sell CD’s in the US under that name. Ireland has a reciprocal agreement they tell me, so it can come and bite him in the ass over there too, although I’m not clear on the details. That is for my lawyer to figure out. Our lawyer, by the way, is a session player and a fellow Comhaltas member. The only thing we have to gain is to keep our band name. I honestly hope that none of you ever have to go through something like this. Ok, sorry to go long with this rant. I hope this clears the air to some extent, although I have no delusions of convincing any of you of anything. I just hope Colm is watching and taking notes.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by miguel404
Re: Border Collies Scandal
You have a wee bit of a chip on your shoulder, Michael. Many of us have sympathized with you about not being contacted by Colm. I have been trying to look at both sides, and the bigger picture, and I'm not alone in that. We all are hoping for a solution everyone can live with.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Well, it's not surprising he does, Jack. I've certainly heard you go on and on about something that bothers you, haven't I?
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Your point being?
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
That perhaps you should lay off Michael.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Zina, I'm not on his case. He said "I know now that I will never be able to convince you guys and gals of anything here" and "I have no delusions of convincing any of you of anything' the implication being that we're all against him -- including you. I'm trying to get the idea across that we aren't all against him, and I indicated where I sympathize with him. I also pointed out that I'm just trying to see both sides. So how is that getting on his case, Zina? Aren't you over-reacting a bit to what I said? Lots of chips on shoulders going around all of a sudden here.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Huh, sounds like you have a wee chip on your shoulders about it, Jack.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Ok, this is silly now -- I'm out.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
See how easy it is to stop conversations that way?
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Yea -- congratulations. *rolling eyes emoticon*
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Only if you learned something, Jack dear. *smirk*
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
BTW, I discovered something last night, Jack. Dave Firestine looks like a 50/50 clone of you and of Will Harmon. It was *very* weird!
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I learned from Michael that you're against him too, Zina... do you agree with that -- it's what he said. I think you belong to the group he refers to as "you guys and gals" and "any of you." You think this is accurate?
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, either on this case or whether Michael can know whether I'm for or against him. ;)
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
And, like I said, people say things they don't mean when they're upset. However they got that way.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
According to Michael’s post you are in disagreement, Zina -- that's my point. I'm not disagreeing with him either, and I've said over and over I hope there's a resolution everyone can live with. There are a few people that were a bit harsh, but not all as Michael suggests. I don't think we're all going to rise up for either side's cause, but I see no harm in discussing the various aspects of the controversy. It might even be helpful. But again, Michael -- we aren't all against you.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Yup, but when you're upset and people criticize you, you feel like everyone is criticizing you, especially when everyone isn't exactly jumping up and down with eagerness to rush to your support, either. I can understand that, and make allowances.
Even for apparent chips on shoulders. ;)
It's essentially a no-win-win problem, really. As you say, I hope a solution is found that works for everyone. But talking about it in public, especially when principals of the situation are present, isn't exactly guaranteed not to raise a few hackles.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
So... would everyone please put their hackles and chips in the bin by the door before entering this room. Thank you.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
We could have a fry after with them.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
You could have a fry-up every day for the next 10 years with all the chips on my shoulder
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I got Dow and M.G together. Can I try with you two. The nobel prize beckons.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Look, no offense to anyone, but I really think, as a principal to this, that I should graciously bow out. It's a no-win argument for me, and I apparently never seem to say things that don't just get picked apart. Perhaps that is the nature of discussion groups like this. I don't know. I have not participated hardly at all before this thing got going. I just keep on getting sucked in to the conversation, and I don't think it's a good thing for me to do. Thank you all.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by miguel404
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Michael, what do you want from us? We sympathize with your frustration about Colm failing to reciprocate with your attempts to talk with him about it. Until we hear his side we can't arrive at any fair conclusions. This thread wasn't intended as a place to win or lose arguments about it; I just wanted to discuss it. I'm glad you had the chutzpa to contribute. It would be nice to hear from Colm, but I doubt he has time for this website. I really do hope he contacts you, but that's all I can do at this point. It’s not up to any of us anoraks on this website anyway, but I’m sure everyone hopes it gets resolved amiably.
# Posted on May 6th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Well, I'll just add my two cents. I have played and guested with the Atlanta based Collies for many years now on uilleann pipes and flute mainly. They are great friends of mine and I have recorded extensively with Michael and the other members on various projects and count myself privileged to call him a friend. He and his family have helped me out in personal situations many times and they are terrific folks. It's a great group with tight players and it's fun to have a break from the more hard-core traditionalist route I usually take with other groups I play in (and I tour playing trad music for a living, so I know what I'm doing) and draw on other musical influences as well. Obviously I'm a little biased from the start.
I had a great amount of respect for Colm (as a flute player myself, I think his playing (and singing) is brilliant). I've never met him and as such certainly cannot take it upon myself to comment on his character. All I'll say is this. I've been based in Atlanta for well over a year now and in that time have watched Michael become more and more frustrated in his many attempts to contact Colm. Filing a lawsuit? We never even considered that possibility in the beginning. Why would we have had to? Who ever would have guessed this would have drawn out to the point that it has? We are puzzled and frustrated over this to no end. We have been friendly and professional about wanting to resolve this issue amicably. Colm absolutely will not talk to us and we don't know why. I think you can all appreciate that after so many months, we are bound to get a little miffed. This issue is spinning way out of control now and the hardest part is the we don't know why. All I can say is that I definitely can vouch that Michael has tried his very best to establish a dialog with Colm and his hit a brick wall at every turn. I tend to be the first person to give everyone the benefit of a doubt, as I like people (especiallly if they are musicians) and I hate to antagonize anyone, it's just not worth the effort or bad feelings for anyone involved. But it's getting harder and harder for me to believe that somehow Colm is oblivious to all of this, and frankly I'm starting to become disgusted by the whole thing.
In other thoughts, Hey Zina! Long time no hear and Mike Dugger says hi.
- Zac
http://www.bigplain.com/~oisre/main_1.php
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by Flute_boy
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Hey Zac! Hope things are going well with you! Tell Dugger that Dave Finestine says hello, as do Pat and Sam. And I still love the bow beyond belief.
Hugs to you!
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Oops, typo there, Firestine is who I meant!
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Good grief, you're playing with Sean Sutherland?!? Small world, this.
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Wow, that's some nice stuff there, Zac. I'd no idea you'd moved to Atlanta, that you were still touring with Mike (and, oh, please give him *my* love too!), that you'd played with the Collies, or that you were playing with Sean! Turn my back, and look at you!
Say hello to Sean for me, too, would you?
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I meant Zina and Jack.
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
It seemed a better argument, more soap potential.
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I was *ignoring* you, Bliss dear.
I knew who you meant. If Jack and I haven't figured out by now how to argue but still end up the night with our heads down over the tunes, shoulder to shoulder, nobody can.
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Oh right... you always want to sit by Kevin now.
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Well, this is true. It's because he's cuter than you.
# Posted on May 7th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
At the end of the day the Atlanta group took that name first. No group has the right to copy it regardless of the circumstances. As for the argument that one group play Irish music and the other play Celtic; it doesn't matter. They could be a heavy metal group and and a jazz group and the situation would be just as bad. Personally I wouldn't cross the road to listen to either group anyway! I find it strange that one band would pick such an awful name never mind two!!!!! They are about as creative with their names as they are with their music!!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on May 8th 2005 by Roger O' Miller
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"Personally I wouldn't cross the road to listen to either group anyway!" - Roger O' Miller
I haven't heard the Atlanta band, so I can't comment on them, but obviously you haven't heard the Sligo band to make such a statement.
# Posted on May 8th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I wouldn't make a comment like that if I hadn't heard them. Perhaps you don't like my favourite musicians and bands. Nowadays Irish music is so diverse that there will be bands that some people like that others won't. I find it incredible that I could be criticized just because I don't like a certain band. If somebody didn't like my music I obviously wouldn't agree with them, however I'd accept their opinion like any other. Having a go at somebody in regards to their music preferences is pretty shalow in my view.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Roger O' Miller
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I'm accepting your opinion; I was making an assumption. So I was wrong and you have heard the Sligo band. Now I'm more amazed at your statement. The Sligo based band has received rave reviews across the board and enjoy wide spread airplay all around Ireland from what I've heard myself listening to online Irish radio. No offense, but now I'm wondering what you consider good Irish trad is because your taste has come into question.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Legal action is a BAD IDEA here.
I have a hard time believing that having another band share your name is worse than being internationally known as the guy who shut down a bunch of good traditional musicians. IMHO, if there was a better way to destroy several years of hard-earned good-feeling among trad music fans, I can't think of it. It's clear that the Atlanta collies are not looking for sympathy, but they clearly aren't looking for good PR either. They could have rightfully springboarded off the Irish collies success and earned universal good feeling (and Colm would be the one owing a big favor to the Atlantans); but instead it appears that they chose to drag everyone into the mud, and will likely destroy everything they built themselves--even if they are in the right (which they probably are, at least legally). I'm no bible scholar, but King Solomon would be amused.
If this continues, the band name "The Border Collies" will be eternally connected with this mess. Colm O'Donnell, on the other hand, will still be a beautiful musician and will continue to be well known around the world for that at least. Let's hope the members of the Atlanta Collies can emerge from this so comfortably.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Georgi
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I highly doubt Colm will emerge from this mess unscathed, Georgi. Fortunately in Irish music, this sort of thing doesn't occur often as ego is usually the last thing on the minds of most players. however, there are still the occasional musicians that are amazing players and also extremely disagreeable people as well. The fact that they are brilliant musicians is no excuse for their behavior. This music is about people in the first place. I've never met Colm, as I 've remarked before, but if the man won't even speak to us or explain his side of the story or try to help fix this problem in any way and only continues down this particular path, what does that say about his character? Words aside, his actions are speaking for themselves. The fact that he is a great musician won't save his personal reputation.
Zac
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Flute_boy
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Hiya, George! Good to see you're alive and kicking! Anyway, more to the subject, I can empathize with both sides on this thing. There's lots of "should haves" and such on both sides, in actuality, and I personally don't actually know if Solomon would be amused or not.
I have to say, the fact that Colm won't contact the band after repeated tries over several years by the Atlanta group looks bad on his part. I don't know Michael, but I would hope accomodation could have been and still could in fact be worked out by good will and action on both sides -- the fact that he's a good friend of Zac's and others who've chipped in their two cents leads me to believe that he's probably also a good guy. (As, in fact, are most people; I don't know anyone who wakes up and starts each day by saying something along the lines of, "What can I do to ruin somebody else's day today?")
Whether anyone is a lovely musician isn't the actual issue, from what I can see. if someone is a lovely musician and an axe murderer, I'll still call the police, if they've left any limbs with which to do so.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Zina Lee
And I make haste to say...
...I am NOT saying that Colm's dereliction of communication is on a par with being an axe murderer. So there.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Doesn't ANYone here know Colm O'Donnell? Can't somebody arrange a telephone call or something?
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
ZINA!!! AXE MURDERER???
I can't believe you said that! Don't you hate how we can't edit?
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Heh. Yes, I do, but not in that particular instance. I knew what I was saying and what I'd better say following because I knew nitpicky jerky-minded people would jump on it. Ahem. *smirk*
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Isn't "axe murderer" a wee bit over the top... Zina? Honestly! *double smirk*
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
See!? LOL
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Hi Zina & Zac,
I never meant to suggest that Colm O'Donnell would come out of this unscathed. In fact, this will probably inconvenience him rather badly. He has had to cancel his tour of the states, and he may not be able to sell the CD here.
Nor did I mean to suggest that his quality as a musician excuses anything (but we still haven't heard his side of the story yet--and I suspect we won't hear it here, at least). I don't know the man. He may be a complete louse, or he may be a lovely fellow. I've no idea. However, I do know that I like his music, and that I am not so thoroughly convinced of his poor character that I feel a need to boycott him. Other people will no doubt feel differently.
I really only meant to suggest that EVERYBODY is going to get hurt here--including the fans, and the Atlanta collies. If any Irish music fans didn't know about the Atlanta collies, it would appear that the Atlanta collies have now introduced themselves... For better or worse.
I'd like to think that I'm not one to make accusations of poor character (at least not intentionally), but it seems safe to say that Colm's actions (or inactions, as the case may be) are not the only actions speaking here, and what people around the world hear everybody's actions saying will likely depend on how many people can be convinced that the legal avenue was really *necessary* here--and as we've seen by the length of this thread, this can be a hard argument to sell. I'm afraid the Atlanta collies might be explaining this one for a long time to come (even if they did have the right, which I am not disputing)... I certainly don't envy their new-found fame.
At the end of the day, I'm most disappointed that I won't likely get to hear the Irish collies perform now. I am a great fan of their music, and I think Irish fans and musicians alike all over the USA would have enjoyed the chance to hear them, whatever they decided to call themselves. I was looking forward to that tour. It's too bad that Colm didn't return calls, and it's too bad that Michael decided that the name collision was so important as to warrant getting a lawyer to shut them down. It's all very disappointing.
At any rate, I hope this doesn't become a common occurrence...
:(
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Georgi
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Yes, I've rather wondered whether the reason why no one has heard from him is because he's been told by his attorney not to make any public (and possibly private) comments.
Yeah, it's a shame that it didn't get worked out before a tour was booked and all, and now probably it'll all have to get ironed out before they can come over this side of the pond. But then, I've been waiting for this really stellar fiddler and teacher to come back out to Colorado, he's from Boston, maybe you've heard of the guy, this George Keith person?
Sucks to be us, dude. ;)
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I got to see them in Ennis.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
What about "The Real Border Collies", "The Official Border Collies", "The Provisional Border Collies". Sounds familiar if you are from Ireland, but really this is all a nonsense. A simple change to "The Sligo Border Collies" would suffice. After all, Sligo is more or less on the border.
But I fear not, the Irish ambivilence towards the law and the US of A craze for litigation will win the day I fear. No winners after that.
# Posted on May 9th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
On the border of the smoking and non-smoking pubs.
# Posted on May 10th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I just had a listen to the band on your advice Jack...and they are very good arent they, lovely schtuff. Even mores the pity that they are caught up in all of this.
# Posted on May 10th 2005 by SirNose
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I got to miss them at Ennis!
# Posted on May 10th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Their tunes are great of course, and the singing is stellar. I really like the way they arranged that Andy Stewart song, and even though "Wylde Mountain Thyme" has been worn out at every Plastic Shamrock event around these parts -- I was spellbound when I heard Colm's daughter sing it. It was as if I was hearing it for the first time. Maybe who's to blame is a big scandal and all, but it's still a pity none-the-less that they had to cancel their tour of the States.
# Posted on May 10th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Jack, that was me before saying that I took your advice to listen to them. I accidently didnt notice that his logon was on the computer and not mine.
It is a real pity they had to cancel the tour, no matter what the reasons.
# Posted on May 10th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
What Andy Stewart song? I hope you weren't suggesting "Wild Mountain Thyme" as in "Will ye go, lassie go" otherwise you could be facing legal action.
# Posted on May 10th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"What Andy Stewart song?"
A Lover's Heart
"I hope you weren't suggesting "Wild Mountain Thyme" as in "Will ye go, lassie go" otherwise you could be facing legal action."
So sue me... that's the one.
# Posted on May 11th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Was lassie a Border Collie?
that would be a neat conclusion to the thread ....
# Posted on May 11th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
More name trouble - the tartan Andy was singing and recording long before my former school buddy, so Blairgowrie Andy had to use his middle initial for professional purposes.
If the "Border Collies" have recorded "Lover's Heart", that's an Andy M. Stewart song, not an Andy Stewart song. Confusing, isn't it?
It strikes me though, that there are similarities in the 2 cases here. Despite them both having been christened with the same names, to which they both have a legal right, a lot of hassle [ but not always confusion , it seems ], was avoided by Andy M. modifying the name he uses in his profession.
I suggest the Sligo "Border Collies" do the same - end of problem.
And miguel404 - "Georgia Satellites" - great band! "Battleship Chains" !!! I'm sure I saw a poster for them here in Aberdeen a month ago, but I'd missed them.
# Posted on May 11th 2005 by Kenny
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Yes, another post on this. Not here to add flames; I just happened to be in a band with Miguel in 1998 when he first suggested we change our name to the Border Collies, and then went on to form his own band.
Different comments, petty and wise, aside, here's a lesson for any of us doing the music - it's not smart not to do your homework, or to ignore a problem when it's first presented to you. Colm cost himself and his band money, and Miguel money, but not doing the sensible and reasonable thing in the first place and nipping the problem right then and there when he first heard the band name was already taken. He has fostered bad feeling since then by staying absolutely silent on this matter. That's terrible business. What a waste. Music is a hard enough business as it is without doing something so absolutely self-defeating.
Sandra Sparks
# Posted on May 11th 2005 by andrasda
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Then there are things like when Seamus Egan's lawyer contacted the label where my friend, Seamus Egan, had just released a banjo CD, and they told him to cease and desist using his name. It turns out that my friend Seamus is actually older than Seamus Eagan with the lawyer. In other words -- my friend had the name first. hmmmmm
# Posted on May 11th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I think that Jack has hit the nail on the head there. It's got nothing to do with a band 'stealing' another band's name. NEITHER of these bands has the right to 'own' the name 'The Border Collies' any more than I have the right to 'own' the name 'mark'. What if, as a successful graphic designer, I was to hire some lawyer to say that only I, in the entire world, could call myself Mark and practise Graphic design? Eh?
Why don't they both call themselves the Border Collies, and accept that, if it causes confusion, then so bloody what? It doesn't actually matter. If someone ends up going to a gig and sees the wrong band, so what? What if Haydn had copyrighted the word 'Symphony' (You can bet your f*cking arse that if Ronald MacDonald had written a symphony and the title was in the public domain it would now be a title that only McDonalds could use).
What have EITHER Border Collies people got to worry about? As a graphic designer, I deal with this sort of crap every day. If someone playing traditional music wants to play Corporate, 'I own this name' games, in my opinion, they deserve anything coming their way.
Bloody Capitalists!!!!!!!!
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Then there's Paddy O'Brien and Paddy O'Brien. Not to mention Sean Ryan (fiddler) and Sean Ryan (whistler). There's probably a few more like this as well.
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Yes Jack, but it is much easier when one has no pulse...
Did you ever try to post a message that you really worked and debated over posting, only to have been logged off. Perhaps it is a sign...so I won't retype the rest of this one...
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Yes, Jode, but they live on in their music.
The thing is; they still have a presence whithin the ITM environment. There's still a confusion factor as a result.
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Indeed. Now, Jack Gilder, hmm, that has a nice ring to it. I think I'll change my name. I hope the wife doesn't mind.
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Or I could shorten my last name to 3 letters...
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Guess I would have to figure out which kind of concertina to play.
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"Guess I would have to figure out which kind of concertina to play."
hahahaha
Only if you change your name to "Dow."
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Good one. ;~ )
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
There seem to be a lot of things being brought up here that are completely beside the point. I live in the Atlanta area and have played with Miguel in sessions and onstage, and know him to be a an individual with a helpful and generous heart who would not court trouble. Which band is more trad? It doesn't matter, the Atlanta Collies were using it first, and Colm was aware of it. Which band do you like better? Again, doesn't matter. My own playing is more tradition oriented than the Atlanta Collies', but I respect the enthusuiasm Miguel has brought to his music and his growth in respecting the tradition while following his own muse. This is simply a matter of fair play, politics, charges of "cultural imperialism" (hey, how many Irish bands have appropriated American musical forms?) or anti-capitalist sentiment. (I'm left of center, myself) are irrelevant. Think the name is lame? Again, irrelevant, pro or con.
Miguel had a band, has worked hard over the years to establish and promote it, and the Irish Collies were very aware of its existence. IMHO, the Sligo Collies are the ones that need to do the right thing. More trad credentials or greater exposure doesn't make what they did right. BTW, I've met Colm here in Atlanta. Personable guy, wonderful musician.
# Posted on May 12th 2005 by andymtn
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Yes, but neither of them are going to be the Rolling Stones, are they? This is just a storm in a teacup. All this stuff about what's right or wrong is irrelevant . If the 'Sligo Collies' had said "Yeah, what a great name, I'll borrow that for my little band 2,000 miles away!" and had gone off, worked bars and clubs round Sligo, but had never got catapulted into the International touring arena, all this legal stuff and unpleasantness would have never come up. For all Michael/Miguel knows, I might have been earning a tidy packet working the a band called the Border Collies here in Oxfordshire (IreIand's missing county) for the last eight years(!) I still don't see what the Atlanta band are complaining about - this is their one chance at acheiving fame and fortune - "We're the the band who the Border Collies got their name from!"
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Mark I'm with you on this one, what does it matter? (Oh no, Mark, we have the same name - right that's it [pouts and stamps foot] my mummy gave me my name and my mummy's always right so now I'm going to take you to court and *force* you to change it!)
Get a perspective on things for godssakes and lose the "I am right so by logic you must be wrong" ego trip. If the Sligo Collies were wrong to take your name, you're wrong to be bothered by it.
If I were Miguel I'd treat the experience positively and I'd be like "wow thanks for giving us an excuse to change our name to something good". Then I'd change the name of the band to something catchy and unique and forget about the whole thing. It's really not something to get your knickers in a twist over. That's the problem with us in our cosy Western world - we can't see the wood for the trees. We spend heaps of money on something as ridiculously insignificant as this and let it snowball and ruin our lives, and we don't see that, relatively speaking, other people have it a whole lot worse, and, relatively speaking, our problems are easily dealt with. Instead we whinge on and on about it and try and justify our position to others using the Western logic of "if someone sh*ts on you, throw money at it and sh*t on them back". Whinge whinge whinge. We try and convince everyone that it's simply a matter of "fair play" - a case of "we were here first so obviously we're in the right"... not allowing ourselves to see that there might be... just might be... a grey area, and that there *is* no right. We don't see that there are other ways out, other simple solutions that would avoid the stress and financial hassle for everybody. We stop listening to those around us who are giving us advice because we think they are criticizing us and judging us rather than giving advice. We think "why should I listen to them - I'm *right* god damn it, and that's all there is to it!"
Just stop and think for a minute: what are you fighting for? What are you getting so upset about? It's really silly. Stop it. Change your name, and put the money you would have used on the court case to good use instead of throwing it away on something so bloody unimportant in the big scheme of things. How about giving it to charity instead? No hang on I'm forgetting who I'm talking to here, maybe invest it instead and gleefully watch the money grow before your eyes
This sort of stuff belongs on "Judge Judy" guys, seriously.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Excuse me, right or wrong is irrelevant? Michael tried to research the name thoroughly before using it. Colm knew exactly what he was doing when he appropriated the name and the logo. No matter who's better known, the Sligo Collies owe the Atlanta Collies some acknowledgement if they plan to play on this side of the pond, or even if they don't. It's a matter of respect and fairness.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by andymtn
Re: Border Collies Scandal
BTW andymtn I agree with everything you said apart from the last bit: "the Sligo Collies are the ones that need to do the right thing".
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"It's a matter of respect and fairness"... *sigh* - you're still using up that valuable energy whinging about it. If the BC's were my band, I'd accept that this has happened and that the other party had decided to dig their heels in. I'd cut my losses and walk away, and channel my energy into revamping my band under a different and much cooler name. Treat the whole experience as a positive thing.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Just an idea for anyone involved with the BC's: why not start a new thread and get some members here to think up a catchy new name for the band - I'm sure people would be glad to help...
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Dow, I think the point is that the Atlanta Collies *like* their name. Even if you think its naff.
God, why oh why has this thread not died yet!!?? Anyhow - I dont see why the Atlanta collies should change their name - after this thread I doubt there will be anyone who doesnt know which band is which.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Hehe you're right Beebs. You know how they've met each other? Maybe the two bands decided to do this whole scandal as a publicity stunt
That means that Jack's in on it - that figures I always knew there was something dodgy about him 
Well the scam has worked for me - I hadn't heard of either band till this thread. But if that's not the case and it's just that they like the name, well, good luck to them. Throw some money at it and take it to court if you think it's worth it cuz that's your only option other than walking away from it. If you're gonna do that though, stop whinging about how everything's so unfair and just get on with it.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I'm going to set my dogs on this thread if it doesn't die soon.
Hey it might have got intteresting if we could have enticed someone from the Sligo Mob into the fray, but............
Sit, Lie down, Roll Over and Die.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Donough
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Dow sure is whinging a lot about all this.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
You can't just kill a thread like that Donough.
You need to engage an *attorney* and petition the court for a *thread shut down order*.
Where's your respect?
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Bren
Dogs of War
My Retriever is just aching to take these Collies to pieces - she never did like them anyway. They think they're the bees knees just because they chase sheep around.
Can we make this into the thread about what dog do you have or like?
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Donough
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I'm a sucker for border collies - they're so cute and well-behaved. I also like labradors and retrievers because I like the way their head feels when you stroke them, sort of round and square at the same time. But anyway I think I prefer cats.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Do we have to talk about dogs? I can't whinge about dogs - there's no issue to get my teeth into, unless we talk about the dangerous dogs act and how my friend got knocked over by a pit bull kelpie cross in the park in the middle of the night and mauled and the owner was just standing there doing nothing about it and now my friend still has pain and back problems from falling over.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
The thread would have died long ago if it hadn't been for the silly off-topic comments and insults, don't you think?
Anyone here ever have the problem of showing up to a gig, getting a confused look from the bookers, and hearing the words "you're not who I booked?" It's happened to rock bands, it's happened to country bands, in all sorts of cases it happens. In an age when the world truly is smaller, there is an internet, and you meet the other guy face to face for chrissake, there is no excuse for not doing the homework to increase your chances of having a unique and memorable name.
Anyone here ever hear of an American band called Clan na Gael?
They realized after a short time that they had made a mistake, the name was used by others, it caused too much confusion, and, even though they did have CDs out under that name, they changed their name to Seven Nations. They had a good band, with a lot of fans, but they were the latecomers. They handled the problem as quickly as possible and there were no lasting bad effects.
Those of you asking what does a name matter anyway:
I was in a business seminar yesterday where the speaker asked the audience what is the number one most important thing to remember when you are talking to someone, or remembering someone? What they do? What they look like? No. It's the name. It matters most to the person or entity wanting to be remembered, and it matters most for someone tyring to remember them. Especially in business: a single name becomes an entire description in many cases. Nike. The Beatles. Trump. Beckham. You don't just see the name, you get the whole picture. So don't dismiss the power of a name, even if you are not socially adept enough to think it is important.. Think about that the next time someone just can't seem to remember your name, or gets you mixed up with somone else. If it happens in a business situation it's more than embarrsassing, it can cost you.
Unlike those of us stuck with the choices of our parents, (and even we can choose to change that if we like) bands get to choose their names. It doesn't matter what you think about Michael/Miguel's choice for a band name, Colm made a poor choice by going ahead and continuing to use a name that he knew was already being used.
The only question that remains in any of this is, what is Colm's problem with communicating with people? I don't care what kind of musician he is, in this point. This is about business sense.
Sandra
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by andrasda
Re: Border Collies Scandal
So is this is about "fair play", or is it about "business sense"? To me the two are an obvious contradiction in terms. As far as I see it, that is where the problem lies. It's not about the name, or the band, or right and wrong - it's about attitudes. But then I'm not a businessman so what would I know? I'm also not involved in a court dispute at present, so there you go...
So what sort of dogs do you like, Sandra?
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"The thread would have died long ago if it hadnt been for the silly off-topic comments...'''
"even if you are not socially adept enough to think its important"
Sorry Sandra - I think the only question remains is "why isult people for expressing an opinion that differs from yours"?
While you might not like all the opionions expressed, your post will certainly not change minds, well mine at least. If this was the kind of thing you learnt in Business School then that was a waste of $25.
Maybe people are getting off topic and having a joke because at this stage its obvious that this situation is way beyond coming to a happy ending, thus chatting and having a joke - lightening the sitiuation may be the only option left.
Anyhow - who ever heard of *anyone* making a profitable business out of trad (aside from riverdance and we all have our own opinions about that being trad).
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I have just received a threatening letter from bb's lawyer, something to do with stealing initials.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Ones that have good bitches, Dow...
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by andrasda
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Godsakes Bliss - its *solicitor* grumble grumble....
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I'm not that impressed by business sense. That sort of sense has given us Global warming, Poisoned seas, Wars for oil - the list goes on. I don't think the name NIKE is meant to give the whole picture at all. It isn't meant to portray forced sweatshop labour in poverty stricken countries, is it? It doesn't convey the reality that this company doesn't actually make trainers at all, but just sources and markets them. If you think it's 'socially adept' to be suckered by bloated capitalists then your world outlook is slightly different from mine
A band that plays for money is a business. That's why a lot of us avoid being in them. That's why we aren't automatically on the same wavelength as musicians in bands who come on this board with their problems.
This board is called 'The Session', not 'The Band'
And personally, I thought this thread had stayed remarkably on-topic, compared with many (no sexual innuendo, no references to bizarre clothing or Cow Tipping etc.).
As far as insults go, I did say "Bloody Capitalists!!!!!!!!" But that wasn't really meant to be taken THAT seriously...
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Oo Sandra I love your last comment - all is forgiven. Anyway don't listen to Beebs, she ate her own scab.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I apologize to the board for that last remark. I couldn't find a way to remove it. It's obvious when someone just loves to bait people, like Dow, but when it's early in the morning, it's sometimes hard not to rise to the bait.
There's a number of trad people who have made a business of the music, and they understand how difficult it is.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by andrasda
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Has anyone ever stroked one of those Chinese Crested dogs which are hairless? They're SO wicked!
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Agh! The joy of boards where we post at the same time...
Dow, let's just forget it, have our favorite drinks whever we are, and get on with life...;)
S
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by andrasda
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Sorry for baiting you Sandra. Most people on this board know me well enough to ignore me
You don't have to apologise for your comment - I was rather impressed by it actually and it made me laugh.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Dow - go to bed you pyscho -its almost midnight! Have you no life?
Bar tender - Sea Breeze please!
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by bb
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Sandra, I, for one, am glad you couldn't remove your post to Dow. Fair play to you.
hahahahaha
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Bet you wish you were as witty as Sandra, eh Jack?
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
"Bet you wish you were as witty as Sandra, eh Jack?"
Don't we all.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
woof
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
No Jode you've just been fed. Go and lie down.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Dr. Dow
Re: Border Collies Scandal
I know... one of the bands could change their name to "The Boreder Collies."
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Grrr. Or Border Collics?
Can't sleep, the band is very border collicy tonight.
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
In it's next incarnation, my band will be the Boudoir Gollies....
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Is this what Sandra meant by "silly off-topic comments?
Gonna get arf my duff and woof it home now. Pleasant weekending everyone...
# Posted on May 13th 2005 by Jode
Re: Border Collies Scandal
Yeah - just meant out of 9 billion people there werent *that* many who've made good business out of trad. Couldnt do it here in Oz...but of course thats only to be expected isnt it.
# Posted on May 14th 2005 by bb