Let me just limit that a little bit by asking how much artistic license should given to playing Celtic Music. I have played with quite a few folk. Some of them had the view that if you were not playing "exactly what was written" by every melody instrument, the music was wrong and therefore bad. That is one extreme. The other extreme is to bend the melody so much that even the chord structures must change to accommodate the music.
My personal take is to add as much varied interest as possible to every piece of music. I love to add third above harmonies. I love rhythmic and double-stop back ups. I thrive on alternate melodies. Most bands take care to make sure that songs have a nice but not overpowering backup that is not the melody. I wonder why it's not always the case with tunes.
Why would you disapprove of such artistic expression?
-Or-
Why on Earth would you want to destroy an awesome tune with a bunch of frivolous noise?
Some people can add quite a bit to a tune, if they know what they're doing. And other people can destroy a tune by adding too much if they don't know what they're doing. I certainly think you can't play exactly the transcription you have in front of you (in some cases, like The Fiddler's Fake Book, you'll find that the transcriber has written in every possible ornament that he heard in every single version he listened to in order to get the transcription -- and if I'm not mistaken, he says so in the introduction -- and playing all of them would sound a lot like a train wreck in musical form), although if you're trying for doubling in performance, playing exactly what the other player is playing can be really something, and truly stunning when the players are good.
Me, I opt for simple whenever possible, because I'm nervous that I don't have enough background in the music yet to make good choices. I'm getting there, but it's not there yet. The tunes will pretty much stand on their own, I know, until I get to a point where I can make ornament and variation choices with authority. Right now I play either the variants of people whose playing I trust, or the simplest possible variants and ornaments.
Irish music, by the way, is one thing -- Celtic Music is another, and you'll find many people are terribly allergic to the term "Celtic". There are many people included in the Celtic groupings that have nothing to do with Irish music (which is what The Session is all about). You can do all kinds of things to "Celtic Music" that would be inacceptable to an Irish player.
And it would be terribly rude of a player in a session to take off on a variant of a tune so wildly different that other players must stop playing or it becomes discordant. (Performance is a different thing.)
Zina's response was a lot shorter than what I could come up with and I think she's right on. That's a good questions there.
As for Celtic/Irish, I tend to be a bit liberal with the term Celtic, in otherwords, I don't tend to seperate the two. Probably my lack of wisdom on the matter but I had been told Celtic includes all that area over there. Scottland, Wales, Ireland,etc.
Well, YES, Wayne. And Scottish, Welsh, and Irish fiddling are all very, very different. And so that's why you don't generally mix 'em all up by being a "celtic" fiddler unless you really mean that. AND there were Celtic tribes in Italy, Turkey, and China, and some people even say here in the States.
Hmmmm,, Sounds pretty deep. Very very different you say? I gotta admitt, I never new there was that much difference. It'd be interesting to see on the tune list where they originated from and who's playing what tunes.
Sure. You should have heard Dave Cory and George White doing a jig as a Scottish player would play them, in a tongue in cheek manner during a session. They had the grace to look (momentarily) embarassed when another player good-naturedly rebuked them for making public fun of our Scottish compatriots.
There's also Breton music, Cape Breton style playing, Shetland Island, ohhhh, damn, I'm brain dead, what the style of the Spanish Celts? Somebody? Anybody? All of them distinctly different from each other, and all falling under the "Celtic" genre.
Take all the liberties you can is my advice, before the Homeland Security boys come around.
Okay, more seriously this isn't a question that can be reasonably answered. You listen to the players that you respect, and you listen for what they do that you respect. You try to strike a balance between mimicry and mockery, between slavish impersonation and wanton disregard for tradition. You try to channel the players you like - "What would Frankie do?" or "What would Martin do". You listen to the other players and make sure that you're playing with them, not against them, but you also try to push them a bit, give them a (metaphorical) jab in the ribs from time to time.
In the end, what you play is your call.
Zina, are you talking about Northern Spain? Each region has it's own folk music , with Galician and Asturian being the Celtic styles, although the Basque country and Cantabria have some great music too.
arrggghhh - flyin fiddler - Irish music and scottish music could NOT be more different. And I hate the term 'Celtic' hey everybody - I play 'Celtic' music - ugghhh
For once, i agree with bb, there is a pretty big difference in the way irish and scottish players play tunes and the types of tunes they play - i know that not many scottish players play polka's (from experience) and not too many irish players play strathespeys or even marches, (and when they do play marches, they are VERY different to the way Scots play them, which is generally - if your from the west coast and highlands - very similar to the way pipers play them!)
Anyway, i think you should play the way that you want to. I'm from New Zealand, and lots of people over here have real difficulty putting a style to my playing as it was all learnt of listening to many different CD's and taking bits from everywhere. I guess i usually play irish tunes in a scottishy/jazzy style, and i like it, and if anyone else dosn't, Who cares!! (most people do like it though....:0)
2 cents here and for those scots here please correct any glaring errors.
there seems to be the "classical" scottish style epitomised by alaisdair fraser and angus grant but there are many fiddlers (from Battlefield band, Deaf Shepherd) who play in quite an "Irish" way. They use rolls for example where as far as i know the roll is not a "classic" scottish decoration. they also paly with more lilt as opposed to a straight rhythm in the reel.
back in the early 70s (here we go) i was in edinburgh and many of the scots learning fiddle at that time were doing irish stuff in an irish style (anyone remember willie beaton from glasgow).
Sorry bb, it was just a small dig. hee hee! Back to the scottish music thing. You'll notice a big difference (if you listen to them) between east coast fiddlers, who are very classicaly oriented - J.S. Skinner wrote many scottish tunes which take a good deal of classical grounding to play - and west coast/highland players who tend to sound more like they are playing in the style of the Highland Pipes. I, personally like the west coast style, but thats personal preference. THere are a lot of young fiddle players over here who are playing in what you'd call more of an irish style, this can be attributed to Ryan Airs cheap flights to dublin i think! But most scottish fiddle players have spent some time in ireland working on their style, playing or just drinking :0)
THats what i think anyway and i've played with a few over here now....
****There were Celtic tribes in Italy, Turkey, and China, and some people even say here in the States****
Was Italy a "Celtic" nation? Arguably, but only in the far northern section.
I've never heard any reference to Turkey & China, as being “Celtic” at least by definition. Celtic itself is a word that was coined by the Romans to describe the various tribes whose languages belonged to the Goidelic linguistic family. These various tribes consisted primarily of peoples who populated current day France, Spain, the British Isles (except for England, by the time the Romans arrived the native tribes of current day England had been run out by the Teutonic tribes [Anglos, Saxons & Jutes]). There may have been a small enclave of Celtic travelers in Turkey, but evidence is flimsy at best to support Celtic tribes wandering about Guangxi, & swimming in the Yangzi River. The “American Celtic Tribes” are another blurred line that could use clarification. Are we supposed to believe that there was absolutely no contact between the Native American tribes & Europeans before Columbus? There is evidence that Vikings visited America in the current Maritimes of Canada, Vikings also had much contact with the Scots & Erse. However every tribe/nation influenced in some way by Celts does not make it a celtic tribe/nation.
In china they have found graves with mummies of tall red-haired people who wore cloth with tartan patterns on it. these were caucasian btw not redhaired chinese.
anyway the celts were supposed tio have originated in asia as far as i know.
Celts invading Rome, Chinese Celts, damn, it's been a while since I've read any Asterix, I love those things... Don't forget the Celts in Switzerland, either. Anyone else seen the Celt/La Tene exhibit at the British Museum? Stellar stuff, quite fascinating. Seeing it explained a lot to me about the Celts and why they're the way they are.
Does anyone else ever wonder what posterity will think of our own civilizations far, far in the future? Assuming we don't go blowing ourselves up past all recovering, of course. Do you suppose the television will become some kind of household altar in the history books? That the tribe of McDonald and the followers of the Burger King (was he from Germany, do you think, the Burger King?) invaded many lands all over the globe and ruled from their small but numerous enclaves, forcing everyone to visit at least once in their lives?
History tends to be as we write it up.
I, a first generation Chinese American, am the tallest person in my family (5'7"), including all of the men, by at least an inch to two inches. My maternal grandfather was my height, apparently, and was considered a giant; in their wedding picture, he towers over my tiny grandmother, but I never met him as he died before I was born. I once asked my mother if there was any possible way that I could possibly have some other blood in my veins that could account for my tallness and the tallness of my grandfather.
My mother said, "Honey, in our village if you weren't ALL Chinese, you didn't get born."
But I do know that there's a tribe of Chinese someplace that are very very tall -- well over 6'5" usually -- with blond hair and blue eyes. I'm assuming from the area near the steppes.
Galicia! That's what I was trying to think of! I don't know too much about Asturian music, though I know it exists...I'll have to go look it up, Conan -- thanks very much for the save!
//In china they have found graves with mummies of tall red-haired people who wore cloth with tartan patterns on it. these were caucasian btw not redhaired chinese//
Sounds similar to the bodies/mummies found in Greenland & Newfoundland, but red-hair is a Viking attribute which they shared with the Scots & some Erse. It is at any rate an isolated oddity, a group of travellers who had an enclave.
//anyway the celts were supposed tio have originated in asia as far as i know.//
You may be vaguely refering to the indo-european language, some historians belive that all language in Asia-Minor & Europe derived from one prehistoric "mother tongue". But this refers to a time when men were first venturing outside of Africa, to the Subcontinent & Europe. Long before the "Celts" developed into a people with an identifiable language family & shared physical attributes.
Ah, if only history was as cut and dried as all that, Brad! Who can know if we can put our actual finger on the actual point at which the "Celts" became their own people? I'm sure they thought they were all along.
Take any tune and make it your own. The fact that it's "traditional" music, the backbone of the tune should be there, with your own variations and ornamentation added. Just my opinion, of course
Tunes cannot be destroyed. But, the last version played can be compared to one that is idolized by some nitpicking style nazi. It is the sharing that seems to be most difficult. Some one has to communicate clearly and then someone else must listen to the music offered instead of the notes in their head and heart. It's similar to ordering fast food. Pull forward please.
Tom
I saw these guys in Lorient a few years back and they made a big impression - their piper Jose Manuel is amazing! They played a tune called L'Angliru and had Mike McGoldrick on as a guest. I couldn't remember their name until I met Mike the folowing year and he told me - Tejedor. He even remembered the tune when I hummed a few bars that had stuck in the memory bank. Anyway their first CD is lovely but doesn't do them justice as they are excellent live. The second link has MP3 excerpts: http://www.worldmusicportal.com/Artists/European/Spanish%20Artists/tejedor.htm
What liberties do we have.
What liberties do we have.
I wonder how you all feel and why.
Let me just limit that a little bit by asking how much artistic license should given to playing Celtic Music. I have played with quite a few folk. Some of them had the view that if you were not playing "exactly what was written" by every melody instrument, the music was wrong and therefore bad. That is one extreme. The other extreme is to bend the melody so much that even the chord structures must change to accommodate the music.
My personal take is to add as much varied interest as possible to every piece of music. I love to add third above harmonies. I love rhythmic and double-stop back ups. I thrive on alternate melodies. Most bands take care to make sure that songs have a nice but not overpowering backup that is not the melody. I wonder why it's not always the case with tunes.
Why would you disapprove of such artistic expression?
-Or-
Why on Earth would you want to destroy an awesome tune with a bunch of frivolous noise?
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: What liberties do we have.
Some people can add quite a bit to a tune, if they know what they're doing. And other people can destroy a tune by adding too much if they don't know what they're doing. I certainly think you can't play exactly the transcription you have in front of you (in some cases, like The Fiddler's Fake Book, you'll find that the transcriber has written in every possible ornament that he heard in every single version he listened to in order to get the transcription -- and if I'm not mistaken, he says so in the introduction -- and playing all of them would sound a lot like a train wreck in musical form), although if you're trying for doubling in performance, playing exactly what the other player is playing can be really something, and truly stunning when the players are good.
Me, I opt for simple whenever possible, because I'm nervous that I don't have enough background in the music yet to make good choices. I'm getting there, but it's not there yet. The tunes will pretty much stand on their own, I know, until I get to a point where I can make ornament and variation choices with authority. Right now I play either the variants of people whose playing I trust, or the simplest possible variants and ornaments.
Irish music, by the way, is one thing -- Celtic Music is another, and you'll find many people are terribly allergic to the term "Celtic". There are many people included in the Celtic groupings that have nothing to do with Irish music (which is what The Session is all about). You can do all kinds of things to "Celtic Music" that would be inacceptable to an Irish player.
And it would be terribly rude of a player in a session to take off on a variant of a tune so wildly different that other players must stop playing or it becomes discordant. (Performance is a different thing.)
Moderation is a wonderful thing, I think.
Zina
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What liberties do we have.
Zina's response was a lot shorter than what I could come up with and I think she's right on. That's a good questions there.
As for Celtic/Irish, I tend to be a bit liberal with the term Celtic, in otherwords, I don't tend to seperate the two. Probably my lack of wisdom on the matter but I had been told Celtic includes all that area over there. Scottland, Wales, Ireland,etc.
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What liberties do we have.
Well, YES, Wayne. And Scottish, Welsh, and Irish fiddling are all very, very different. And so that's why you don't generally mix 'em all up by being a "celtic" fiddler unless you really mean that. AND there were Celtic tribes in Italy, Turkey, and China, and some people even say here in the States.
Zina
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What liberties do we have.
Hmmmm,, Sounds pretty deep. Very very different you say? I gotta admitt, I never new there was that much difference. It'd be interesting to see on the tune list where they originated from and who's playing what tunes.
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What liberties do we have.
Sure. You should have heard Dave Cory and George White doing a jig as a Scottish player would play them, in a tongue in cheek manner during a session. They had the grace to look (momentarily) embarassed when another player good-naturedly rebuked them for making public fun of our Scottish compatriots.
There's also Breton music, Cape Breton style playing, Shetland Island, ohhhh, damn, I'm brain dead, what the style of the Spanish Celts? Somebody? Anybody? All of them distinctly different from each other, and all falling under the "Celtic" genre.
Zina
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
I AM brain dead, I meant George Keith, not George White, who was an old co-worker of mine!
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What liberties do we have.
Take all the liberties you can is my advice, before the Homeland Security boys come around.
Okay, more seriously this isn't a question that can be reasonably answered. You listen to the players that you respect, and you listen for what they do that you respect. You try to strike a balance between mimicry and mockery, between slavish impersonation and wanton disregard for tradition. You try to channel the players you like - "What would Frankie do?" or "What would Martin do". You listen to the other players and make sure that you're playing with them, not against them, but you also try to push them a bit, give them a (metaphorical) jab in the ribs from time to time.
In the end, what you play is your call.
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What liberties do we have.
Zina, are you talking about Northern Spain? Each region has it's own folk music , with Galician and Asturian being the Celtic styles, although the Basque country and Cantabria have some great music too.
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What liberties do we have.
arrggghhh - flyin fiddler - Irish music and scottish music could NOT be more different. And I hate the term 'Celtic' hey everybody - I play 'Celtic' music - ugghhh
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by bb
Re: What liberties do we have.
For once, i agree with bb, there is a pretty big difference in the way irish and scottish players play tunes and the types of tunes they play - i know that not many scottish players play polka's (from experience) and not too many irish players play strathespeys or even marches, (and when they do play marches, they are VERY different to the way Scots play them, which is generally - if your from the west coast and highlands - very similar to the way pipers play them!)
Anyway, i think you should play the way that you want to. I'm from New Zealand, and lots of people over here have real difficulty putting a style to my playing as it was all learnt of listening to many different CD's and taking bits from everywhere. I guess i usually play irish tunes in a scottishy/jazzy style, and i like it, and if anyone else dosn't, Who cares!! (most people do like it though....:0)
Jamie
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by jamiedj
Re: What liberties do we have.
hey....what do you mean 'for once'!!!!
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by bb
Re: What liberties do we have.
irish /scottish difference
2 cents here and for those scots here please correct any glaring errors.
there seems to be the "classical" scottish style epitomised by alaisdair fraser and angus grant but there are many fiddlers (from Battlefield band, Deaf Shepherd) who play in quite an "Irish" way. They use rolls for example where as far as i know the roll is not a "classic" scottish decoration. they also paly with more lilt as opposed to a straight rhythm in the reel.
back in the early 70s (here we go) i was in edinburgh and many of the scots learning fiddle at that time were doing irish stuff in an irish style (anyone remember willie beaton from glasgow).
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by donnchad
Re: What liberties do we have.
Sorry bb, it was just a small dig. hee hee! Back to the scottish music thing. You'll notice a big difference (if you listen to them) between east coast fiddlers, who are very classicaly oriented - J.S. Skinner wrote many scottish tunes which take a good deal of classical grounding to play - and west coast/highland players who tend to sound more like they are playing in the style of the Highland Pipes. I, personally like the west coast style, but thats personal preference. THere are a lot of young fiddle players over here who are playing in what you'd call more of an irish style, this can be attributed to Ryan Airs cheap flights to dublin i think! But most scottish fiddle players have spent some time in ireland working on their style, playing or just drinking :0)
THats what i think anyway and i've played with a few over here now....
Jamie
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by jamiedj
Re: What liberties do we have.
****There were Celtic tribes in Italy, Turkey, and China, and some people even say here in the States****
Was Italy a "Celtic" nation? Arguably, but only in the far northern section.
I've never heard any reference to Turkey & China, as being “Celtic” at least by definition. Celtic itself is a word that was coined by the Romans to describe the various tribes whose languages belonged to the Goidelic linguistic family. These various tribes consisted primarily of peoples who populated current day France, Spain, the British Isles (except for England, by the time the Romans arrived the native tribes of current day England had been run out by the Teutonic tribes [Anglos, Saxons & Jutes]). There may have been a small enclave of Celtic travelers in Turkey, but evidence is flimsy at best to support Celtic tribes wandering about Guangxi, & swimming in the Yangzi River. The “American Celtic Tribes” are another blurred line that could use clarification. Are we supposed to believe that there was absolutely no contact between the Native American tribes & Europeans before Columbus? There is evidence that Vikings visited America in the current Maritimes of Canada, Vikings also had much contact with the Scots & Erse. However every tribe/nation influenced in some way by Celts does not make it a celtic tribe/nation.
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Celts
Asterix's people, heh?
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by glauber
Re: What liberties do we have.
In china they have found graves with mummies of tall red-haired people who wore cloth with tartan patterns on it. these were caucasian btw not redhaired chinese.
anyway the celts were supposed tio have originated in asia as far as i know.
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by donnchad
Re: What liberties do we have.
Celts invading Rome, Chinese Celts, damn, it's been a while since I've read any Asterix, I love those things... Don't forget the Celts in Switzerland, either. Anyone else seen the Celt/La Tene exhibit at the British Museum? Stellar stuff, quite fascinating. Seeing it explained a lot to me about the Celts and why they're the way they are.
Does anyone else ever wonder what posterity will think of our own civilizations far, far in the future? Assuming we don't go blowing ourselves up past all recovering, of course. Do you suppose the television will become some kind of household altar in the history books? That the tribe of McDonald and the followers of the Burger King (was he from Germany, do you think, the Burger King?) invaded many lands all over the globe and ruled from their small but numerous enclaves, forcing everyone to visit at least once in their lives?
History tends to be as we write it up.
I, a first generation Chinese American, am the tallest person in my family (5'7"), including all of the men, by at least an inch to two inches. My maternal grandfather was my height, apparently, and was considered a giant; in their wedding picture, he towers over my tiny grandmother, but I never met him as he died before I was born. I once asked my mother if there was any possible way that I could possibly have some other blood in my veins that could account for my tallness and the tallness of my grandfather.
My mother said, "Honey, in our village if you weren't ALL Chinese, you didn't get born."
But I do know that there's a tribe of Chinese someplace that are very very tall -- well over 6'5" usually -- with blond hair and blue eyes. I'm assuming from the area near the steppes.
Sorry, I'm putting off working. *grin*
Zina
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Oh yes...thanks Conan!
Galicia! That's what I was trying to think of! I don't know too much about Asturian music, though I know it exists...I'll have to go look it up, Conan -- thanks very much for the save!
Zina
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What liberties do we have.
//In china they have found graves with mummies of tall red-haired people who wore cloth with tartan patterns on it. these were caucasian btw not redhaired chinese//
Sounds similar to the bodies/mummies found in Greenland & Newfoundland, but red-hair is a Viking attribute which they shared with the Scots & some Erse. It is at any rate an isolated oddity, a group of travellers who had an enclave.
//anyway the celts were supposed tio have originated in asia as far as i know.//
You may be vaguely refering to the indo-european language, some historians belive that all language in Asia-Minor & Europe derived from one prehistoric "mother tongue". But this refers to a time when men were first venturing outside of Africa, to the Subcontinent & Europe. Long before the "Celts" developed into a people with an identifiable language family & shared physical attributes.
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: What liberties do we have.
Ah, if only history was as cut and dried as all that, Brad!
Who can know if we can put our actual finger on the actual point at which the "Celts" became their own people? I'm sure they thought they were all along.
zls
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What liberties do we have.
Take any tune and make it your own. The fact that it's "traditional" music, the backbone of the tune should be there, with your own variations and ornamentation added. Just my opinion, of course
Colleen
# Posted on June 18th 2002 by irishfiddler32
Re: What liberties do we have.
Tunes cannot be destroyed. But, the last version played can be compared to one that is idolized by some nitpicking style nazi. It is the sharing that seems to be most difficult. Some one has to communicate clearly and then someone else must listen to the music offered instead of the notes in their head and heart. It's similar to ordering fast food. Pull forward please.
Tom
# Posted on June 19th 2002 by ubasshudson
Zina - Asturian music
I saw these guys in Lorient a few years back and they made a big impression - their piper Jose Manuel is amazing! They played a tune called L'Angliru and had Mike McGoldrick on as a guest. I couldn't remember their name until I met Mike the folowing year and he told me - Tejedor. He even remembered the tune when I hummed a few bars that had stuck in the memory bank. Anyway their first CD is lovely but doesn't do them justice as they are excellent live. The second link has MP3 excerpts:
http://www.worldmusicportal.com/Artists/European/Spanish%20Artists/tejedor.htm
http://www.cdroots.com/res-tejedor.html
All the best
Conan
# Posted on June 19th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What liberties do we have.
Hey, cool! Thanks, Conan, I'll check it out later tonight! So...what's the history of Asturia, and how did it come to be Celtic, do you know?
Zina
# Posted on June 20th 2002 by Zina Lee