The Session >> Discussions >> Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
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Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Hey all, im a new member, but have been about the site for a long time. I was recently reading an article I found in a book that ties music and the supernatural/spiritualism and thought it was really interesting and perhaps worth debating because I thought it would be interesting to see what the rest of you as musicians think.
Down through the history of traditional music a lot of tunes have been associated with the supernatural, probably the most famous being the harpist
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
If ever you go to a Chieftains show, pay attention on Matt Molloy's left shoulder. If you look very closely, you'll see a little leprechaum biting his ear, helping him keep time.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Actually, what I want to know is, why are so many Irish traditional musicians these days also computer geeks?
*grin* Not to devalue what you're talking about, though, Anam Ceol. It's just I've noticed an awful lot of us do happen to work with the ol' hi tech boxes.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Jus cause I got this ol' hi tech box don't mean I know how to use it, why do you think I'm so spooked of using it for the ABC thing?
I do believe that music does touch people deep inside. Into their souls so to speak. How many times do you hear a tune and get chicken skin, or maybe have to smile, or even a tear come to your eye. I truly believe that music affects people in the way they feel, even act at times.
I think music is more powerfull than a lot of people give it credit for now days. Not sure if that's where you ment to go with that Anam, but that's my 2 cents.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I *wish* I were a computer geek, you guys! I'm just now reading a beginning programming book and it's giving me chicken skin, alright, but not in a good way!
Glauber, where can I get one of those metronomic Leprechauns? D'ya know? It sure would increase my credibility as an Irish Musician *snort*.
Wayne, I may be simplifiying here. I don't do that well with ABC either, but I can muddle through sometimes because it's kind of what I used to do anyway. I hated learning to read music, so I'd just write down the notes in the appropriate grouping for the time signature. I just never thought using caps to indicate which note I was referring to or adding symbols to indicate repeats or ornaments or whatever.
I think that people who really love music get a little embarrassed sometimes to admit just how deeply it affects them. And really, it is one of those un-explainable things. Thank goodness there are still some of those left!
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
No, no, no, Glauber...I find most of the real geeks aren't here -- they're too busy to be fooling about on the Web. *grin* George Keith is a geek. Dirk is a geek. Mike Dugger was a geek. A ton of people I know who play out in California are geeks. I know of at least three or four other players here in Colorado who are geeks. (I, however, cannot claim geek status, I am merely a pseudo-geek.)
Maybe it has something to do with that love of orderliness or something. Oh wait, I'm talking about Irish stuff here, aren't I? Hmm, that can't be it. Fractal theory? Chaos theory? *grin*
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
The whole spiritual question is quite interesting - Micho Russell used to play to the fairies out in the fields. Im not a totally sceptical person, loads of people believe in religion and gods etc so whats to say that believing in fairies is strange? (maybe I was a hippie in a former life ) Seriously though - loads of musicians talk about it all the time, its a pity I dont experience that kind of magic when I play....
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I'm not a computer geek, but all these stimulating discussions and tune swapping does brighten up a usually dull day at work, (some times think i have too much time on my hands when at work....:0)
Music and the Supernatural, that would explain why sometimes late at night when i'm playing i think i can hear voices.....! (or that could just be the background noise of other people in the pub...) think i'll go with the first analogy! (and stop blethering and try to do some work!
Jamie
(just found out im playing at T in the Park festival here in scotland so i'm in a happy place!) tee hee :0)
All right, then, I'll take the question seriously...
Ah, but does real spirituality bring happiness, at the most basic level? The philosophers and theologians believe that real spirituality brings peace -- Nirvana, if you will -- and that happiness is a by-product of perfect peace. And perfect peace is often defined as a one-ness with creation.
Of course, defining terms like happiness and peace and joyfulness takes up the daily time of many a theologian/philosopher, and I doubt we'll be able to cover it adequately here.
But perhaps this is why so many musicians are deeply spiritual even when they're not particularly religious (and you'll note that many of us prefer to keep it light, as evidenced by this thread! *grin*). When you strive to bring the music out of yourself and through your instrument, you are striving at some level for a perfect one-ness with creation through the medium of your music. If you are connected enough to touch that place within yourself that the music both touches and springs from, then you have little problem understanding the idea of a cosmic or divine music.
bb, dear, are those the voices that say loudly things like, "it's closing time, time to go home!" and "can't you go do that somewhere else?!" ? *grin*
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I dont think its so much a case of lots of musical people being spiritual, as that lots of people with phsyciatric problems tend to be very creative. If you have enuff imagination to be seeing fairies then youd probably not find it too hard to come up with a few decent tunes.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I've often wondered the same thing. It's hard to state this in scientific terms because of the vague definition of "spiritual". For example, if you define a spiritual person as someone that wants to have no material possessions, then you won't find many musicians in the group (since a flute is a material possession). Even between related spiritual tribes there are differences. For example, historically, music seems to have been much more important for Lutherans than Calvinists. Calvinists were in the habit of destroying church organs when they converted Catholic churches...
Since i consider meself a spiritual person (in the vague sense), and since music is important to me, then it almost follows that music is spiritual to me. Again, this is fuzzy logic, though it's comforting.
Are all musicians spiritual? I don't think so. You can be a great musician even if you're a hardened materialist; this is not even hard to imagine.
If you consider yourself spiritual, then all sorts of things are also spiritual to you: music, lakes, water, etc. If you're a materialist, you think this is bs.
I'm not even trying to give my definition of "spiritual", because (1) it would take too long and (2) it would be very off topic.
its a pity they wouldnt give me a few tunes maybe they dont like accordions ! The next time im in glenveigh park i'll ask the grounds keepers if they've spoted any musical banshee's !! worked for doherty !
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I wrote a little bit about this last night, and then my computer battery ran out before I could hit - And I'm supposed to be a geek!
I've often discussed the geek/music conection with friends who noticed that mathematical people, and engineers seem to also have a higher interest in music and playing music. I'm not sure if there are more musicians in the engineering world than usual, but it is a prevailing idea that there are. If so, I think it's because music is a language, a logical system, like compter languages or math, and that aspect of music is what geeks like, at some level.
Also, some of us geeks need a spiritual outlet. Music is a good way for some of us sentimental types to expess our spiritual emotions. Since I'm a Christian, I don't play for fairies - I play for God. However, if you want, I suppose you can play for the mushroom people, or the clouds, or the dandelions, a crowd of teenagers, or whatever you choose. On the other hand, you can choose to express the mechanical nature of a washing machine through music. It's a pretty flexible language. The funniest part about music is that the player could be thinking about a washing machine, and the listener can experience a spiritual connection with God. I also believe that if the player or composer is spiritual, that can come across better to a listener who has a similar spirit. So, for me, the spiritual aspect of music is very important.
Mathematics is all about aesthetics. Mathematicians are interested in form, in patterns, and above all, in beauty. I thought of saying "truth and beauty" but that would be redundant -- truth is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for beauty in mathematics (i.e., you can have a true but ugly, klunky proof, but you can't ever have a beautiful false proof). Music allows a direct experience of mathematical beauty. Some music geeks get enjoyment out of analyzing the forms and patterns in music, too, but music really grabs us with an immediate sensation of beauty (or Truth, or Joy, or God, or Magic (fairies?) or whatever you want to call it). It touches the inner part of us, the core of our humanity. THAT'S "spiritual."
Now engineers, on the other hand, get a bad rap for being "applied" -- dirtying math by using it on mundane things. The stereotype is that engineering is to math what Muzak is to real music (or maybe the Boston Pops playing "Toss the Feathers"?). Personally, I don't think that's fair. I'd guess, also, that the musical engineers would be most likely to appreciate pure math, too.
Sarah
(revealing my geekiness . . . I have degrees in philosophy, mathematics, and civil engineering)
"Spiritual", "religious", "creative", "beauty" -- such loaded phrases. Trying to define the core of our humanity, what it is that makes us human and what it is that ties a fractious bunch of nominally smart, hairless monkeys together, could take us so far afield that we might never get back to the music that takes us there so effortlessly. But I can't think that it's a wasted exercise, somehow. Taking a bit of time out to think about it, however brief, and however shallowly you like, is part of what makes us sentient beings. We often assume that we need to spend more time in the moment, just being rather than making everything so hard, but there's still value in taking a look at what makes the music so important to us and why.
Wish Will was here for this discussion. He's good at cutting through with a simple yet elegant phrase and/or definition...
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
The most beautiful music I ever heard was in my dreams. Music that has never made waves in the air around us or impacted an actual human earlobe. (Did I really "hear" it?) It just about broke my heart. Melodies that slipped from my mind upon waking played on instruments that don't exist in harmonies that couldn't possibly be recreated. I've always felt my compositions come through me, not from me, even though they quite probably wouldn't exist without me. I feel they are already there in the wind, the water, a thunderous downpour, a moment of sadness or nostalgia, and I only allow them to exist. Maybe there are tunes in everything - the rolling waves, the dust on a windowsill, the knowing glance of a wise maid (the ridiculous antics of a cheating bastard, har har) just waiting for a metaphysician to set them free.
Is music spiritual? Well, meditation is fairly universally considered spiritual, and music can easily be meditation. I'd say SOME music / musicians are spiritual. Not so much Britney Spears or Marilyn Manson. It all depends on your motives and your muse.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
In respect to ITM specifically, I believe it has to do with cultural identity. Understanding that people have been able to create such beautiful music even so, in spite of, or because of enormous suffering, hardships and oppression. That in music the spirit can transcend the harsh realities of the moment. It's that search, that reaching for, that belief that there has got to be something more, that intangible holy grail, that sustains (some?) musicians. Music takes (some of) us away from ourselves, flying joyously high off to another dimension (off with the fairies!!!!), yet brings us closer to our own personal inner happiness.
After all, logically aren't we just struggling for survival like every other living organism on this planet?
Cheers
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Terry Pratchett believes that the use of five exclamation points following one sentence is probably the sign of a diseased (or was that depraved?) mind... *grin*
Change the channel if you don't like the program, NorthCregg. For some of us, this IS relaxing. We're probably dweebs, but there you are. Heh.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I hadn't realised I'd been so heavy! And ITM isn't heavy - its heavenly! Point taken NorthCregg. Sorry! Won't happen again - from one diseased or depraved mind to another *grovel ... grovel ... side shuffle ... side shuffle ... grin ... grin ... GRIN* (thanks Zina) I think the people left on board sang as the Titanic went down in 1912 - can't help it *sheepish grin*
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
No, I really do think it's an interesting topic, Jill. I mean, here am I, a Chinese American woman, pretty much totally immersed in this whole Irish thing. (I have two jobs -- I teach Irish stepdancing and I own a business that makes Irish solo dancing costumes and embroidery. I play the music.) What's up with that? How did that happen? Why on earth did it happen? It makes perfect sense that someone like bb plays, but...me? C'mon.
Personally, I don't have much fear of "heavy" topics. I can emulate Kevin Burke and Martin Hayes at least in their outlook on the music if not their playing and really think about what I play and why I play it and what it means across the wider board. I totally respect players like Burke and Hayes and would really hate to have anyone tell them to "chill out" when they get on to some of these topics. So I hope that doesn't completely kill this rather interesting (at least to some of us) discussion or make anyone afraid to post about it.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I totally agree with you, I think it is a spiritual / magical thing for many musicians, maybe not all, but loads & I dont know about you lads, but you'd NEVER catch me stepping in a fairie ring - I err on the side of caution when it comes to magical things!
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I was playing with a group of friends once, and as i did something on the flute, my eyes met the eyes of this incredibly beautiful girl, and she smiled. At that moment, my heart skipped a beat (while the fingers kept on, doggedly, doing their thing). That was a spiritual experience (perhaps not as good as St. Paul in the Damascus road, but i'm not Matt Molloy either). Not like an experience of the Christ, but more like an experience of the Madonna (and now i really opened the floodgates for smartalecky comments, oh dear).
Fact is, we're hopeleslly physical. Like someone here said, a bunch of smart monkeys sitting in a circle and making pretty sounds. Yet, even the most hormonal experience is fraught with transcendent overtones.
So maybe i'm sitting in a circle with a bunch of friendly monkeys and my fingers do something in the flute that causes a pretty sound to come out, and (without me ever knowing it), causing another monkey's brain to release a certain mixture of hormones in his bloodstream, and somehow, in the middle of all this, the Spirit of God communicated something to that monkey. And i never even knew it. Maybe that's how it is, sometimes. I hope so.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
well, here's a bit of my take on things here. I come from a long line of people who have tended to be extremely religeously/politically passionate.... and it has at some points gotten us into trouble, while at other points been our grace. It seems that no matter how much I try to escape this and enjoy the - I suppose - shallower aspects of life, there is some underlying foundation that I am based on and keeps on pulling me back to it.
Music can become a language for things that can't be spoken. Spirituallity to me is a blanket over visible reality and I sometimes feel that music gives shape to this invisible blanket.
Music is something that is scientifically based (the fact that an octave isn't simply relative but it is a scientific phemonina). It's something that is fundementally natural to humanity. Such things have a power over humanity and if spirituallity is considered at all with respect to humanity, then it's logical to believe that somehow these fundamentals must be connected.
Because for the majority of my life there's always been numerous internal spiritual/societal/political debates going on I find music is a way to still these questions and simply enjoy spirituality. It can be about being in the moment for once - music is dynamic not static. You can't hold on to it, you need to exist in it. I may have a rather different view of spirituallity then kerri for instance (although we do agree on quite a few things) but when I allow it to interact with my music, I am truly letting my soul sing.
So there you have it. I am a romantic after all I suppose. I suppose the fear in this is that when you speak about deep things you expose your 'soft underbelly' be kind.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I dunno that you *can* escape religious/spiritual aspects of life into "shallower" climes, Searai! Part of the reason that religion and politics tends to be taboo at parties and such is that they strike extremely deep chords in people...we tend to believe that our beliefs ARE us, that we are our beliefs, as it were, and so even the shallower things in life (as Glauber points out) -- hoisting a pint, seeing a movie, the acquaintances you hang out with -- are impacted by these core beliefs...and it's easy to feel damaged when someone goes after one of your beliefs. So there's no escaping our spirituality -- we only think we're not thinking about it.
I like your illustration of spirituality as a blanket -- and that music gives that blanket shape. It works well with Glauber's and others' point that the music speaks a language that cuts across belief systems and might say different things to different people but still does touch things that we generally try to keep hidden. I've always thought of spirituality as an underlying or central core -- always worthwhile turning a way of looking at something upside down!
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I'm not saying you can escape from those things... it's just that - like a relationship, you can over-think things, and spend more time discussing the details of the relationship than existing in it. It's sort of like that with music. music is simply existing in a sort of spirituality as opposed to a disussion about it.
I think the same thing about the spirituality being the central core of a person as well. I see the blanket as more of a spiritual communication layer. Just as our physical bodies are objects in the 'real world' our core spirits are objects in the metaphysical spiritual blanket.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
well, when it comes to certain fundamentals, I'm not sure that they do... I think however, that we have different ways of applying them perhaps. Also, I do think that there is something other than perhaps societal complexity that separates humankind from animals.
Speaking of which, Glauber, I have to say that the monkeys making pretty sounds in a circle idea absolutely rubs me the wrong way. I had a flatmate at one point who put everything humans do to biological instincts and science, and although I'm a bit of a scientist myself - I can't buy it.
There is something more than scientific principles which makes up the fabric of being (I suppose that statement could run the risk of being propelled into an argument about 'what is reality' etc). I think that there is a certain level of biology that affects our decisions but that we also can supercede this. When we do this great things happen. Like great music.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Let's see, I believe I just read in a Terry Pratchett book last night that if you take all the things that makes us human away (like music, history, geometry, etc.), all you get is apes that fall out of trees a lot. If you take all the things that make elephants elephants away, I wonder what you have then?
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I may be wrong, but I think whales make music all the time. I remember buying a record of whale singing and playing it for the first time to a group of pre-school children in London upteeeeeeen years ago, and they all went bezerk! Absolutely bonkers! It was that startling! Dolphins, whales - the humans of the sea. Could it be that they have a spiritualism too?
Crickets, frogs, even (in Oz) magpies also.
I remember after one St Patrick's Day, while I was hanging washing out in the outback, likening the songs of the magpies to 'an out of tune rendition, half remembered, of a haunting Irish whistle strain' (I wrote it down).
It is well known that there are clines of magpies in oz, and that as well as subtle changes in physical appearance, ie:- black/white patterns of feathers and size, there are also changes in their tunes.
Just a thought!
Cheers
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Actually, what I want to know is, why are so many Irish traditional musicians these days also computer geeks?
*grin* Not to devalue what you're talking about, though, Anam Ceol. It's just I've noticed an awful lot of us do happen to work with the ol' hi tech boxes.
Zina
Posted on June 11th 2002 by ZinaLee
It's been said that there is a correlation between high tech and high touch, i.e., that in times of increasingly technological involvement/immersion, there is a corresponding need for increased touchy-feeling-ness.
I have noticed that a lot of people who dance Scottish and English and Irish are Engineers, Librarians and Computer Geeks of various stripes and dimensions. But I think that [also] has something to do with a common interest in the regularity and complexity of the form.
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
not to throw another burning log on your metaphorical fire, but although I did study Fine Art and to a lesser extent History, Music and Environmental Issues, I am *gasp* an electrical/computer engineer.
Apparently though, if you didn't know it, you wouldn't guess. I guess I hide the inner geek quite well. (alex - if by chance you ever read this, no laughing)
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
A news article from the United Kingdom.
Musicians found to have 'more sensitive brains'
By Lorna Duckworth, Health Correspondent
17 June 2002
Musicians have bigger and more sensitive brains than people who do not play instruments, scientists revealed yesterday.
The auditory cortex, which is the part of the brain concerned with hearing, contains 130 per cent more "grey matter" in professional musicians than in non-musicians.
In amateur players, the volume of the auditory cortex is between the two, a team of researchers from Heidelberg University in Germany has found. They used scans and imaging techniques to compare the size and activity of the auditory cortex in 37 people.
The professionals, who all performed regularly, showed 102 per cent more activity in their auditory cortex than non-musicians. Activity in the brains of amateur musicians was on average 37 per cent higher than in those who did not play an instrument, the researchers said in a report in Nature Neuroscience. The auditory cortex consists mainly of "grey matter" or nerve cells called neurons, which are interconnected by long filament-like axons, or "white matter".
The scientists found startling physical differences between the three groups. Those with musical experience had larger amounts of grey matter in the region called the Heschl's gyrus. The structure contained 536 to 983 cubic millimetres of grey matter in professional musicians, 189 to 798 cubic millimetres in amateurs, and 172 to 450 cubic millimetres in non-musicians. There was also a high correlation between auditory brain activity and the musical aptitude of volunteers, who were asked to spot subtle changes in pairs of short melodies.
The researchers added that post-mortem studies had revealed abnormally large Heschl's gyrus structures in two eminent musicians. But whether such differences were due to genetics or the effect of musical exposure on the brain remained unclear.
"Our results indicate that the morphology and neurophysiology of HG (Heschl's gyrus) have an essential impact on musical aptitude," said the report's lead author, Peter Schneider. "The question remains, however, whether early exposure to music or a genetic predisposition leads to the functional and anatomical differences between musicians and non-musicians."
Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Hey all, im a new member, but have been about the site for a long time. I was recently reading an article I found in a book that ties music and the supernatural/spiritualism and thought it was really interesting and perhaps worth debating because I thought it would be interesting to see what the rest of you as musicians think.
Down through the history of traditional music a lot of tunes have been associated with the supernatural, probably the most famous being the harpist
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by Anam Ceol
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
If ever you go to a Chieftains show, pay attention on Matt Molloy's left shoulder. If you look very closely, you'll see a little leprechaum biting his ear, helping him keep time.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by glauber
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Actually, what I want to know is, why are so many Irish traditional musicians these days also computer geeks?
*grin* Not to devalue what you're talking about, though, Anam Ceol. It's just I've noticed an awful lot of us do happen to work with the ol' hi tech boxes.
Zina
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
*snicker*
Glauber, forget what I said, it doesn't apply to you, you're just a geek. *snicker*
zls
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Jus cause I got this ol' hi tech box don't mean I know how to use it, why do you think I'm so spooked of using it for the ABC thing?
I do believe that music does touch people deep inside. Into their souls so to speak. How many times do you hear a tune and get chicken skin, or maybe have to smile, or even a tear come to your eye. I truly believe that music affects people in the way they feel, even act at times.
I think music is more powerfull than a lot of people give it credit for now days. Not sure if that's where you ment to go with that Anam, but that's my 2 cents.
Wayne
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by flyinfiddler
The technogeek connection
Sometimes i think the reason why there are so many computer geeks here is because this is a Web site.
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by glauber
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I *wish* I were a computer geek, you guys! I'm just now reading a beginning programming book and it's giving me chicken skin, alright, but not in a good way!
Glauber, where can I get one of those metronomic Leprechauns? D'ya know? It sure would increase my credibility as an Irish Musician *snort*.
Wayne, I may be simplifiying here. I don't do that well with ABC either, but I can muddle through sometimes because it's kind of what I used to do anyway. I hated learning to read music, so I'd just write down the notes in the appropriate grouping for the time signature. I just never thought using caps to indicate which note I was referring to or adding symbols to indicate repeats or ornaments or whatever.
I think that people who really love music get a little embarrassed sometimes to admit just how deeply it affects them. And really, it is one of those un-explainable things. Thank goodness there are still some of those left!
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
No, no, no, Glauber...I find most of the real geeks aren't here -- they're too busy to be fooling about on the Web. *grin* George Keith is a geek. Dirk is a geek. Mike Dugger was a geek. A ton of people I know who play out in California are geeks. I know of at least three or four other players here in Colorado who are geeks. (I, however, cannot claim geek status, I am merely a pseudo-geek.)
Maybe it has something to do with that love of orderliness or something. Oh wait, I'm talking about Irish stuff here, aren't I? Hmm, that can't be it. Fractal theory? Chaos theory? *grin*
Zina
# Posted on June 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
The whole spiritual question is quite interesting - Micho Russell used to play to the fairies out in the fields. Im not a totally sceptical person, loads of people believe in religion and gods etc so whats to say that believing in fairies is strange? (maybe I was a hippie in a former life
) Seriously though - loads of musicians talk about it all the time, its a pity I dont experience that kind of magic when I play....
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by bb
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I'm not a computer geek, but all these stimulating discussions and tune swapping does brighten up a usually dull day at work, (some times think i have too much time on my hands when at work....:0)
Music and the Supernatural, that would explain why sometimes late at night when i'm playing i think i can hear voices.....! (or that could just be the background noise of other people in the pub...) think i'll go with the first analogy! (and stop blethering and try to do some work!
Jamie
(just found out im playing at T in the Park festival here in scotland so i'm in a happy place!) tee hee :0)
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by jamiedj
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Could it be too many pints?? I hear voices when I have too many pints
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by bb
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Seems I
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by crannog
All right, then, I'll take the question seriously...
Ah, but does real spirituality bring happiness, at the most basic level? The philosophers and theologians believe that real spirituality brings peace -- Nirvana, if you will -- and that happiness is a by-product of perfect peace. And perfect peace is often defined as a one-ness with creation.
Of course, defining terms like happiness and peace and joyfulness takes up the daily time of many a theologian/philosopher, and I doubt we'll be able to cover it adequately here.
But perhaps this is why so many musicians are deeply spiritual even when they're not particularly religious (and you'll note that many of us prefer to keep it light, as evidenced by this thread! *grin*). When you strive to bring the music out of yourself and through your instrument, you are striving at some level for a perfect one-ness with creation through the medium of your music. If you are connected enough to touch that place within yourself that the music both touches and springs from, then you have little problem understanding the idea of a cosmic or divine music.
bb, dear, are those the voices that say loudly things like, "it's closing time, time to go home!" and "can't you go do that somewhere else?!" ? *grin*
Zina
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I dont think its so much a case of lots of musical people being spiritual, as that lots of people with phsyciatric problems tend to be very creative. If you have enuff imagination to be seeing fairies then youd probably not find it too hard to come up with a few decent tunes.
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Wackadack
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I've often wondered the same thing. It's hard to state this in scientific terms because of the vague definition of "spiritual". For example, if you define a spiritual person as someone that wants to have no material possessions, then you won't find many musicians in the group (since a flute is a material possession). Even between related spiritual tribes there are differences. For example, historically, music seems to have been much more important for Lutherans than Calvinists. Calvinists were in the habit of destroying church organs when they converted Catholic churches...
Since i consider meself a spiritual person (in the vague sense), and since music is important to me, then it almost follows that music is spiritual to me. Again, this is fuzzy logic, though it's comforting.
Are all musicians spiritual? I don't think so. You can be a great musician even if you're a hardened materialist; this is not even hard to imagine.
If you consider yourself spiritual, then all sorts of things are also spiritual to you: music, lakes, water, etc. If you're a materialist, you think this is bs.
I'm not even trying to give my definition of "spiritual", because (1) it would take too long and (2) it would be very off topic.
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by glauber
Fairys in Donegal ?
its a pity they wouldnt give me a few tunes maybe they dont like accordions ! The next time im in glenveigh park i'll ask the grounds keepers if they've spoted any musical banshee's !! worked for doherty !
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by martin t
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Everybody knows that fairies listen to disco, at least the ones in my neck of the woods.
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I wrote a little bit about this last night, and then my computer battery ran out before I could hit - And I'm supposed to be a geek!
I've often discussed the geek/music conection with friends who noticed that mathematical people, and engineers seem to also have a higher interest in music and playing music. I'm not sure if there are more musicians in the engineering world than usual, but it is a prevailing idea that there are. If so, I think it's because music is a language, a logical system, like compter languages or math, and that aspect of music is what geeks like, at some level.
Also, some of us geeks need a spiritual outlet. Music is a good way for some of us sentimental types to expess our spiritual emotions. Since I'm a Christian, I don't play for fairies - I play for God. However, if you want, I suppose you can play for the mushroom people, or the clouds, or the dandelions, a crowd of teenagers, or whatever you choose. On the other hand, you can choose to express the mechanical nature of a washing machine through music. It's a pretty flexible language. The funniest part about music is that the player could be thinking about a washing machine, and the listener can experience a spiritual connection with God. I also believe that if the player or composer is spiritual, that can come across better to a listener who has a similar spirit. So, for me, the spiritual aspect of music is very important.
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by dirk
Music, math, geeks, and spirituality
Mathematics is all about aesthetics. Mathematicians are interested in form, in patterns, and above all, in beauty. I thought of saying "truth and beauty" but that would be redundant -- truth is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for beauty in mathematics (i.e., you can have a true but ugly, klunky proof, but you can't ever have a beautiful false proof). Music allows a direct experience of mathematical beauty. Some music geeks get enjoyment out of analyzing the forms and patterns in music, too, but music really grabs us with an immediate sensation of beauty (or Truth, or Joy, or God, or Magic (fairies?) or whatever you want to call it). It touches the inner part of us, the core of our humanity. THAT'S "spiritual."
Now engineers, on the other hand, get a bad rap for being "applied" -- dirtying math by using it on mundane things. The stereotype is that engineering is to math what Muzak is to real music (or maybe the Boston Pops playing "Toss the Feathers"?). Personally, I don't think that's fair. I'd guess, also, that the musical engineers would be most likely to appreciate pure math, too.
Sarah
(revealing my geekiness . . . I have degrees in philosophy, mathematics, and civil engineering)
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by x
Wandering even further afield
"Spiritual", "religious", "creative", "beauty" -- such loaded phrases. Trying to define the core of our humanity, what it is that makes us human and what it is that ties a fractious bunch of nominally smart, hairless monkeys together, could take us so far afield that we might never get back to the music that takes us there so effortlessly. But I can't think that it's a wasted exercise, somehow. Taking a bit of time out to think about it, however brief, and however shallowly you like, is part of what makes us sentient beings. We often assume that we need to spend more time in the moment, just being rather than making everything so hard, but there's still value in taking a look at what makes the music so important to us and why.
Wish Will was here for this discussion. He's good at cutting through with a simple yet elegant phrase and/or definition...
Zina
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
The most beautiful music I ever heard was in my dreams. Music that has never made waves in the air around us or impacted an actual human earlobe. (Did I really "hear" it?) It just about broke my heart. Melodies that slipped from my mind upon waking played on instruments that don't exist in harmonies that couldn't possibly be recreated. I've always felt my compositions come through me, not from me, even though they quite probably wouldn't exist without me. I feel they are already there in the wind, the water, a thunderous downpour, a moment of sadness or nostalgia, and I only allow them to exist. Maybe there are tunes in everything - the rolling waves, the dust on a windowsill, the knowing glance of a wise maid (the ridiculous antics of a cheating bastard, har har) just waiting for a metaphysician to set them free.
Is music spiritual? Well, meditation is fairly universally considered spiritual, and music can easily be meditation. I'd say SOME music / musicians are spiritual. Not so much Britney Spears or Marilyn Manson. It all depends on your motives and your muse.
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
In respect to ITM specifically, I believe it has to do with cultural identity. Understanding that people have been able to create such beautiful music even so, in spite of, or because of enormous suffering, hardships and oppression. That in music the spirit can transcend the harsh realities of the moment. It's that search, that reaching for, that belief that there has got to be something more, that intangible holy grail, that sustains (some?) musicians. Music takes (some of) us away from ourselves, flying joyously high off to another dimension (off with the fairies!!!!), yet brings us closer to our own personal inner happiness.
After all, logically aren't we just struggling for survival like every other living organism on this planet?
Cheers
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Jill
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Jeez gang chill out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Northcregg
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
My point exactly Northcregg. Music is the perfect muse to chilling out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Jill
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Terry Pratchett believes that the use of five exclamation points following one sentence is probably the sign of a diseased (or was that depraved?) mind... *grin*
For some of us, this IS relaxing. We're probably dweebs, but there you are. Heh.
Change the channel if you don't like the program, NorthCregg.
Zina
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I hadn't realised I'd been so heavy! And ITM isn't heavy - its heavenly! Point taken NorthCregg. Sorry! Won't happen again - from one diseased or depraved mind to another *grovel ... grovel ... side shuffle ... side shuffle ... grin ... grin ... GRIN* (thanks Zina) I think the people left on board sang as the Titanic went down in 1912 - can't help it *sheepish grin*
# Posted on June 12th 2002 by Jill
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
No, I really do think it's an interesting topic, Jill. I mean, here am I, a Chinese American woman, pretty much totally immersed in this whole Irish thing. (I have two jobs -- I teach Irish stepdancing and I own a business that makes Irish solo dancing costumes and embroidery. I play the music.) What's up with that? How did that happen? Why on earth did it happen? It makes perfect sense that someone like bb plays, but...me? C'mon.
Personally, I don't have much fear of "heavy" topics. I can emulate Kevin Burke and Martin Hayes at least in their outlook on the music if not their playing and really think about what I play and why I play it and what it means across the wider board. I totally respect players like Burke and Hayes and would really hate to have anyone tell them to "chill out" when they get on to some of these topics. So I hope that doesn't completely kill this rather interesting (at least to some of us) discussion or make anyone afraid to post about it.
Zina
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I totally agree with you, I think it is a spiritual / magical thing for many musicians, maybe not all, but loads & I dont know about you lads, but you'd NEVER catch me stepping in a fairie ring - I err on the side of caution when it comes to magical things!
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by bb
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
*grin* Well, bb, the fact that mushrooms spring up where the faeries have danced probably tells you a lot about their feet and bathing habits.... heh.
Zina
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I was playing with a group of friends once, and as i did something on the flute, my eyes met the eyes of this incredibly beautiful girl, and she smiled. At that moment, my heart skipped a beat (while the fingers kept on, doggedly, doing their thing). That was a spiritual experience (perhaps not as good as St. Paul in the Damascus road, but i'm not Matt Molloy either). Not like an experience of the Christ, but more like an experience of the Madonna (and now i really opened the floodgates for smartalecky comments, oh dear).
Fact is, we're hopeleslly physical. Like someone here said, a bunch of smart monkeys sitting in a circle and making pretty sounds. Yet, even the most hormonal experience is fraught with transcendent overtones.
So maybe i'm sitting in a circle with a bunch of friendly monkeys and my fingers do something in the flute that causes a pretty sound to come out, and (without me ever knowing it), causing another monkey's brain to release a certain mixture of hormones in his bloodstream, and somehow, in the middle of all this, the Spirit of God communicated something to that monkey. And i never even knew it. Maybe that's how it is, sometimes. I hope so.
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by glauber
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
well, here's a bit of my take on things here. I come from a long line of people who have tended to be extremely religeously/politically passionate.... and it has at some points gotten us into trouble, while at other points been our grace. It seems that no matter how much I try to escape this and enjoy the - I suppose - shallower aspects of life, there is some underlying foundation that I am based on and keeps on pulling me back to it.
be kind.
Music can become a language for things that can't be spoken. Spirituallity to me is a blanket over visible reality and I sometimes feel that music gives shape to this invisible blanket.
Music is something that is scientifically based (the fact that an octave isn't simply relative but it is a scientific phemonina). It's something that is fundementally natural to humanity. Such things have a power over humanity and if spirituallity is considered at all with respect to humanity, then it's logical to believe that somehow these fundamentals must be connected.
Because for the majority of my life there's always been numerous internal spiritual/societal/political debates going on I find music is a way to still these questions and simply enjoy spirituality. It can be about being in the moment for once - music is dynamic not static. You can't hold on to it, you need to exist in it. I may have a rather different view of spirituallity then kerri for instance (although we do agree on quite a few things) but when I allow it to interact with my music, I am truly letting my soul sing.
So there you have it. I am a romantic after all I suppose. I suppose the fear in this is that when you speak about deep things you expose your 'soft underbelly'
-s
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by searai
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I dunno that you *can* escape religious/spiritual aspects of life into "shallower" climes, Searai! Part of the reason that religion and politics tends to be taboo at parties and such is that they strike extremely deep chords in people...we tend to believe that our beliefs ARE us, that we are our beliefs, as it were, and so even the shallower things in life (as Glauber points out) -- hoisting a pint, seeing a movie, the acquaintances you hang out with -- are impacted by these core beliefs...and it's easy to feel damaged when someone goes after one of your beliefs. So there's no escaping our spirituality -- we only think we're not thinking about it.
I like your illustration of spirituality as a blanket -- and that music gives that blanket shape. It works well with Glauber's and others' point that the music speaks a language that cuts across belief systems and might say different things to different people but still does touch things that we generally try to keep hidden. I've always thought of spirituality as an underlying or central core -- always worthwhile turning a way of looking at something upside down!
Zina
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I'm not saying you can escape from those things... it's just that - like a relationship, you can over-think things, and spend more time discussing the details of the relationship than existing in it. It's sort of like that with music. music is simply existing in a sort of spirituality as opposed to a disussion about it.
I think the same thing about the spirituality being the central core of a person as well. I see the blanket as more of a spiritual communication layer. Just as our physical bodies are objects in the 'real world' our core spirits are objects in the metaphysical spiritual blanket.
wow... getting a bit metaphysical meself here.
# Posted on June 13th 2002 by searai
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Gosh, Searai, I didn't realize our spiritual beliefs differed! I can't remember ever really talking about it with you. You're usually so tight-lipped!
# Posted on June 14th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
well, when it comes to certain fundamentals, I'm not sure that they do... I think however, that we have different ways of applying them perhaps. Also, I do think that there is something other than perhaps societal complexity that separates humankind from animals.
Speaking of which, Glauber, I have to say that the monkeys making pretty sounds in a circle idea absolutely rubs me the wrong way. I had a flatmate at one point who put everything humans do to biological instincts and science, and although I'm a bit of a scientist myself - I can't buy it.
There is something more than scientific principles which makes up the fabric of being (I suppose that statement could run the risk of being propelled into an argument about 'what is reality' etc). I think that there is a certain level of biology that affects our decisions but that we also can supercede this. When we do this great things happen. Like great music.
# Posted on June 14th 2002 by searai
Animals and music
I heard that you can teach elephants to play (big) instruments and they make their own music, but i haven't heard what that sounds like.
# Posted on June 14th 2002 by glauber
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
maybe elephants will prove me wrong after all
(they may sound better than alot of musicians anyway...)
# Posted on June 14th 2002 by searai
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Let's see, I believe I just read in a Terry Pratchett book last night that if you take all the things that makes us human away (like music, history, geometry, etc.), all you get is apes that fall out of trees a lot. If you take all the things that make elephants elephants away, I wonder what you have then?
Zina
# Posted on June 14th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
I may be wrong, but I think whales make music all the time. I remember buying a record of whale singing and playing it for the first time to a group of pre-school children in London upteeeeeeen years ago, and they all went bezerk! Absolutely bonkers! It was that startling! Dolphins, whales - the humans of the sea. Could it be that they have a spiritualism too?
Crickets, frogs, even (in Oz) magpies also.
I remember after one St Patrick's Day, while I was hanging washing out in the outback, likening the songs of the magpies to 'an out of tune rendition, half remembered, of a haunting Irish whistle strain' (I wrote it down).
It is well known that there are clines of magpies in oz, and that as well as subtle changes in physical appearance, ie:- black/white patterns of feathers and size, there are also changes in their tunes.
Just a thought!
Cheers
# Posted on June 14th 2002 by Jill
And after rain the frog calls were deafening.
# Posted on June 14th 2002 by Jill
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
Actually, what I want to know is, why are so many Irish traditional musicians these days also computer geeks?
*grin* Not to devalue what you're talking about, though, Anam Ceol. It's just I've noticed an awful lot of us do happen to work with the ol' hi tech boxes.
Zina
Posted on June 11th 2002 by ZinaLee
It's been said that there is a correlation between high tech and high touch, i.e., that in times of increasingly technological involvement/immersion, there is a corresponding need for increased touchy-feeling-ness.
I have noticed that a lot of people who dance Scottish and English and Irish are Engineers, Librarians and Computer Geeks of various stripes and dimensions. But I think that [also] has something to do with a common interest in the regularity and complexity of the form.
# Posted on June 16th 2002 by dfhart
Music and the Supernatural
The Pre-Socratic Greeks made whole philosophies of the connection between Music and Mathematics. . . Music of the Spheres, anyone?
# Posted on June 16th 2002 by dfhart
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
hmmm- I'm not a geek at all. I hate maths as well
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by bb
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
not to throw another burning log on your metaphorical fire, but although I did study Fine Art and to a lesser extent History, Music and Environmental Issues, I am *gasp* an electrical/computer engineer.
Apparently though, if you didn't know it, you wouldn't guess. I guess I hide the inner geek quite well. (alex - if by chance you ever read this, no laughing)
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by searai
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
A news article from the United Kingdom.
Musicians found to have 'more sensitive brains'
By Lorna Duckworth, Health Correspondent
17 June 2002
Musicians have bigger and more sensitive brains than people who do not play instruments, scientists revealed yesterday.
The auditory cortex, which is the part of the brain concerned with hearing, contains 130 per cent more "grey matter" in professional musicians than in non-musicians.
In amateur players, the volume of the auditory cortex is between the two, a team of researchers from Heidelberg University in Germany has found. They used scans and imaging techniques to compare the size and activity of the auditory cortex in 37 people.
The professionals, who all performed regularly, showed 102 per cent more activity in their auditory cortex than non-musicians. Activity in the brains of amateur musicians was on average 37 per cent higher than in those who did not play an instrument, the researchers said in a report in Nature Neuroscience. The auditory cortex consists mainly of "grey matter" or nerve cells called neurons, which are interconnected by long filament-like axons, or "white matter".
The scientists found startling physical differences between the three groups. Those with musical experience had larger amounts of grey matter in the region called the Heschl's gyrus. The structure contained 536 to 983 cubic millimetres of grey matter in professional musicians, 189 to 798 cubic millimetres in amateurs, and 172 to 450 cubic millimetres in non-musicians. There was also a high correlation between auditory brain activity and the musical aptitude of volunteers, who were asked to spot subtle changes in pairs of short melodies.
The researchers added that post-mortem studies had revealed abnormally large Heschl's gyrus structures in two eminent musicians. But whether such differences were due to genetics or the effect of musical exposure on the brain remained unclear.
"Our results indicate that the morphology and neurophysiology of HG (Heschl's gyrus) have an essential impact on musical aptitude," said the report's lead author, Peter Schneider. "The question remains, however, whether early exposure to music or a genetic predisposition leads to the functional and anatomical differences between musicians and non-musicians."
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
37 people is not a very good sampling.
But how interesting. How big is YOUR Heschl's Gyrus? *grin*
Zina
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Music and Spiritualism/Supernatural do you think there is a connection ???
It gives me hope.
# Posted on June 17th 2002 by flyinfiddler