Here we go. Somebody composes a tune, let's call it "Sully's Trip to the Toilet". Now it finishes with dee dah dee, and I decide to finish it with dee dee. Is this wrong. Should the ITM fundamentalists hunt me down and put me to death?
Let's put it another way. Bob Dylan writes "All along the Watchtower", and Jimmy Hendrix does a version, and the Beatles do "With a little help from my friends" and Joe Cocker does his version. Are these people breaking rules cast in stone, or should a bit of individualism be allowed?
In other words, are Elvis impersonators the only "true" musicians? And remember, Elvis was that good that only 22 million people can do impersonations of him.
As far as I'm concerned, though purists will disagree, you can arrange or alter it as you wish if it's for a performance. People will either like or loathe it!
As far as a session goes, I believe that there should be some common consensus as to how a tune is played though, if there are some people there with a slightly different setting or ornaments, it might not matter too much. I can never be bothered with those who deliberately change a tune just for the sake of it, either through boredom or to be clever. If they dislike a tune that much in its present form, why don't they just sit it out?
Maybe we could collaborate to compose a tune for Bodhran Bliss: "The Broken Whistle Rant." Then you could express your individualism by changing it. Does this mean you will show up to play bodhran as an Elvis impersonator?
Q.: Perhaps we can allow you to do a "Y." for yes and "N." for no. Glad to see someone that isn't a main contributor to our verbal tsunami's here.
Wormdiet, let me get this right. Jimmy Hendrix understood the music, so it was ok to change it, but if he wanted to change it, he must not have understood it. Is that the basic foundation of your interesting thesis?
As long as everyone who is playing together practices their individualism as a group (there is an oxymoron lurking here), everything is OK. But, to raise a completely hypothetical example, if everyone else slows down too quickly while the whistle player is repeating the last phrase three times, it could lead to problems. Ha ha. Seriously, as long as the participating adults consent to it, changes here and there are what keeps the music alive. You can be true to the tradition without turning it into a folk version of chamber music.
You dont have to change the tune to be an "individual". i might play with a bit more emphasis on the 2nd and 4th beats of a reel/ slur a phrase/play a slide, wheras the next player might do something else, and the next, and the next....
basically- variations fine, and i like it, but it has to fit the tune. Therefore to do it well, you have to have an *understanding* of the tune that allows for the variations to enhance rather than degrade the tune that's already there.
BB, I think you are comparing apples with oranges. Let me see if I can come up with a better analogy. When Emerson, Lake, & Palmer did their rock versions of classical music, no one misunderstood their intent. However, if you went to the philharmonic and some conductor decided to add a trap set to the orchestra to get a bit more groove going for a Bach cantata, there would likely be objections.
The moral of the story is, if you are playing ITM, it needs to sound pretty close to what made it traditional in the first place. On the other hand, if you want to do a different interpretation of a tune, that's fine, but you have to abide by a certain sensibility to do so and still call your version traditional. It's all a matter of what you're trying to accomplish by taking liberties.
In my experience, no one play it the same. Not the same as the oldest version they know of, not the same as the latest version they've heard.
Not even great contemporary professionals, when I've heard them in several consecutive concerts.
The line between these ... 'organic' and minute variations and variations done with interpretive intent is ineffable to me... part of the wondrous mystery of the music, there to be enjoyed.
This is what I mean. Went to a fleadh in 1977 in Ennis, All-Ireland and went to see a couple of competitions.In the duet section the best music and best music of the week was played by a duet, I even remember their names, Jackie Daly and Seamus Creagh. They played this slow piece with amazing fiddle harmonies, shades of Grapelli playing long, slow notes, and it was beautiful, traditional and moving. They came last.
Why? Yes, you purists and fleadh goers spotted the dreaded word, harmonies. Now if it's brilliant, and traditional, why not?
"Bhain sé ceol as an saol." He really had a good old time. (lit., he reaped, extracted music from life, the world). If this is where your music is coming from (instead of just sheet music), you must be individualistic. That's the music I like best.
.
play what makes you happy, dont worry about traditions , unless your trying to pass yourself as a traditional musician in which case you should learn about the style before you do stuff of your own.
Zina has, unfortunately, been busy with other more pressing personal commitments.
However, she is now back and has already contributed to my "practice" thread. I'm sure we are all pleased to have her with us again.
Drat! Can't even abbreviate my name here! Padraig: remember that movie about Vincent Van Gough? Cutting off your ear and seizures at a funny farm could be interpretted as suffering for you art. However, the art itself was obviously a great joy in his life that compensated for his suffering. It was still his art extracted from life.
O.K. - we will all now take a few minutes of silent suffering for our art. Tibetan Bell chimes 3 times.
:^( :^( :^( :^( :^( :^( sniffle-burp! )^: )^: )^: )^: )^: )^:
I feel much better now!
Hi, JH! Actually, while I was in San Francisco for my father's funeral, my laptop died. So you could say I was forsaken by my PC, yes. I wish I could say that now I was going to buy a Mac, but I need a laptop only to teach the software programs I teach -- and they don't have a Mac version. *sigh*
Thanks, Johnny J -- I missed everyone. And all the nonsense, of course, which I see has gone on full bore and blast and all that.
Ahem. On the subject, my housemate Beth and I were bemoaning the fact that all the pop types seem to be doing covers these days and hardly any original music -- it wouldn't be so bad except that they all do them almost exactly the same as the originals! What's the fun of that?
Anyway, the let's-include-harmonies and other such stuff camp has already been answered by the pundits here at The Session -- all traditional musics must change but slowly in order to stay traditional. I suppose that's probably true of traditional dance and other arts as well.
Thanks, Greg -- it's awfully nice to be back, although I don't think I'm going to have near enough time to find out what happened while I was gone. Any special weirdnesses I should be warned about?
Nothing unusual, Zina. There seems to be a swell in anti-bodhran sentiment lately and you'll want to be careful if you're playing with Bliss and he's been into the whiskey. That's about it.
The Blissful one hisself may be prone to angry outbursts using a Kazoo slammed to the floor that bounces.
I like the young but traditional Teada (with bodhran) and the non traditional Flook (with bodhran). I try not to think about this too hard. That feels like the gradual change you are talking about. I still like GOOD bodhran. Best Wishes.
Ah, I see, Greg and Kerr - and thanks, Ceol, for both the sympathy and the warning! I'd agree about Teada, though I don't know how traditional Flook could be called as I don't know much about them. Besides, I'd listen to the bodhran all day if it meant I could watch the extremely decorative Tristan fighting off all the women, both young and old.
"it wouldn't be so bad except that they all do them almost exactly the same as the originals! What's the fun of that?"
It not only isn't fun, it isn't even accurate.
I've posted on this phenomenon before, especially as it relates to "improvisational" jazz and blues. There are many, many people who simply do not see the inherent cognative dissonance involved in learning an improvised piece "note for note like it is on the record."
I find that when teaching I have to give explicit instruction that if you wish, for some reason or other, to emulate some perfomer or band you *cannot do it* by copying the record, because the original perfromers themselves only played it that way that once, and it has been further modified by the engineering process.
If you wish to sound like a particular performer you must understand and learn to play in their *style*, not any particular notes. If their style includes improvisation then you must, likewise, *improvise* to sound "just like" them, and all music, because of the imperfect nature of the human animal, is to some extent "improvisational"; and no two humans can ever play the same piece exactly alike. Embrace this.
One does not become the sort of great musician that others will seek to copy by copying other musicians. That will just make you a poor imitation, and only one of thousands of such poor imitations.
To become a great musician (or anything else for that matter; and one need not necessarily be highly techically skilled to be a great musician) don't copy the destination, emulate walking the path. It's an issue of perception, not rote learning, ultimately leading to your having your own style, even within the bounds of a traditional framework.
As to the other thing, I'd rather hear someone cover someone else's song in their own way, rather than arranging the frigging thing exactly the way it was done the first or second or third time round. Or I'd just go listen to the original version.
A standout exception to that is the Ray Conniff Singers, though. Beth and I just drove back to Denver from San Francisco straight through, and we'd appropriated a Simon and Garfunkel tape of my dad's, with the Ray Conniff Singers on the flip side. We never laughed so hard during the whole trip as we did at about 10 pm on I80, singing The Candyman, and Killing Me Softly, and many many more, in some of the worst, schmaltziest arrangements you ever heard; I thought I'd drive off the road from laughing...
That may have been because we were driving through Nevada at the time, though. I80 going through Nevada is one of the most boring drives God ever made.
Kerri, why do you always mis-read my posts. I DO NOT DRINK.
Zina, your bit about covers hits the nail on the head. A new argument, sorry I mean thread, awaits. You notice I did ask if "Elvis" impersonators were the only true musicians. Change nothing. Some people would have it that way. The rest is the new thread.
If you want boring drives, try Albuquerque to Roswell, New Mexico after Mesa airlines decides they're not going to bother flying. Then count the billboards on the return trip (after your one-hour meeting in Roswell) thet say "If you flew with Mesa, you'd be there by now!"
The one advantage of pop tune recycling is that you impress your 13-year old daughter by singing along with "If I were a rich girl, da-doo-bee-doo-bee-doo-bee-doo-da-doo-da-dooby-dooby-do."
What kind of a meeting takes place in Roswell, fer cat's sake? Anyway, what started that whole rant was that while we were out in CA, we were in Beth's new car with only a cassette player (thus far), and so we were reduced to radio. I think every other song on the pop stations was a cover, and most of them pretty much arranged exactly as the original -- it was so depressing!
You're not another one of those International Men of Mystery, are you, Greg? I already know three people with clearances just below the goddam President, so I might as well start collecting, I guess... ;)
Tell your son that his band is going to need some kind of hook, or they'll just disappear into the sea of bands doing the same sort of thing. Like, they all cross dress and make up silly names. Oops, lots of bands doing that already too...
Oh, no, I caught the reference to MIB the first time, but I just wondered. Two of the people I know with that kind of clearance can't tell me anything about their jobs, what they do, where they go, or how they get there. So I call them my International Men of Mystery. I'd love to collect a full stable, I'd feel like something out of a Bond novel. Except maybe my legs aren't good enough any more... ;)
KFG, I've just started on this thread and read your comments several posts back about "copying" other musicians.
In my teens, when I was learning a Beethoven cello sonata and a Bach cello suite for an exam and a subsequent recital, my very perceptive cello teacher forbade me from listening to any recordings or performances while I was working on them, largely for the reasons you gave.
He was, moreover, of the opinion that a specific recording by an artist should be treated as a live performance and listened to once and once only - not quite the expensive proposition you might think, since in Bristol there was, and still is, an excellent lending library of recorded music.
"I-80 going through Nevada is one of the most boring drives God ever made."
Not if you stay up for three days straight, go for a long run in 120 F. in the Dreaded 40 Mile Desert, and then start driving at 10 pm in a car with no air conditioning. The hallucinations keep the interest level high. My favorite was the 18-wheeler-sized jackrabbit sprinting across all four lanes right in front of us, just west of Winnemucca. Luckily I swerved in time to avoid hitting it. The adrenalin from that near-miss finally wore off coming into Elko. I then slept through the section into Wells (the seat belt kept me behind the wheel), where I turned north onto US 93, which makes I-80 look like the Las Vegas Strip. Pulled into Twin Falls ID at 5 am and paid $80 for a room and a 4 hour nap, then back on the road. Shudder.
Honest to god though, I-80 gets worse further east. The most boring stretch of all goes across northern Ohio. It's not the heat, it's the humidity.
I figured you did, I'm just pointing out that IMoM isn't MIB, it's AP, for those who might have missed that point.
"I'd love to collect a full stable"
We're crawling with them around here. The place has gone downhill more than a bit, but back in the "Good Old Days" anyone who *didn't* look like they were labled "Top Secret" was an object of suspicion and all anybody could talk about was football. I have no real idea what my own father in law did. It's one little piece of the secret to each and no sharing.
". . .forbade me from listening to any recordings or performances while I was working on them. . ."
Well, I guess I'm conducting something of a reverese cultural experiment right now, as I've spent a part of the day playing bits of Suite No. 6 ( I love the Prelude in particular), but. . . I'm playing it on fiddle, because I don't have a cello. . . and I'm picking it up by ear from the Yo-Yo Ma recording, since I don't have the sheet music.
I have been doing a bit of cello shopping though, and to maintain the harmony of the universe I suppose when I acquire one I'll have to learn a violin partita on it, for which I have the sheet music, but no recording, because I've always relied on my local library for those.
“Bodhranbliss” – you say above that Jacky Daly & Seamus Creagh came last in the duets at the All-Ireland Fleadh in Ennis in 1977. I have a few problems with that statement, which maybe you can explain. To begin with, how do you know they came last? Comhaltas judges, as far as I am aware only have ever announced the 1st, 2nd and 3rd places at competitions. Not even messrs Daly and Creagh would know they came last, unless they got the marks sheets of all the other competitors so that they could compare them, something which I have never heard of, as in my experience, the judges will only hand out adjudication sheets to the competitors themselves. I believe only 1 person knows who comes last in a Fleadh competition, and that would be the judge. Were you the judge on that particular occasion?
But more importantly, I too was at the 1977 Fleadh in Ennis, along with “ptarmigan”, and we were both in the audience at the Senior duets competition as well. I think we stayed for the whole competition, and I may well be wrong, but I have no recollection of Jacky Daly & Seamus Creagh being in that competition, and they are certainly not listed as competitors in the programme, which I still have.
Can you explain this, please, and satisfy my curiousity ?
Ok... back to the topic here. There are standard settings, and show pieces. Many times artists will change a standard tune to showcase their talent, if you learn that setting you might find yourself playing alone when you would rather be playing with everyone. Sometimes you'll discover it's in a different key even. But if people are changing the tune simply because they're bored with the music and think they can do better -- they should play some other kind of music. (I know a couple of people like this) There are some artists who you can count on to change tunes around to suit them. If I learn tunes from recordings by these people -- I do so realizing that it won't be likely to match other people's playing at sessions. If I alter tunes to suit my own playing, I'm very careful not to stray too far away from the standard version, or at least be able to play along without any zingers. If people want to play harmonies on slow tunes I think that’s great. If they’re experimenting and playing zingers – I hope I’m on the other side of the table… or at another session. If they want to play harmonies on reels and jigs it could lead to some funny looks. But at the end of the day -- we’re all individuals.
P.S. I hate it when the bodhran player does harmonies.
Well. BB might suggest that there were only four entries in the competition so it might be easy to deduce that Seamus and Jacky came last. However, as they didn't take part, he's got a problem.
There were four turned up. I could have been third in the Banjo playing, Harvest Home, Roisin Dubh and Planxty George Brabazon. The standard was poor. Liam Hanrahan won banjo, but Sully was in the pub down the street. It was that type of year.
Maybe Jackie and Seamus entered under false names, but they played. Being an expert I recognised them.
Correct. Did Vinny from Manchester win the bodhran? Mr Hanrahan foolishly started a contretemp with my good self, I can remember his face, but obviously not his name. Did he play again?
Perhaps Jackie and Seamus were "ringers" in the u-18, I mean the GAA is run that way, so why not the music.
The reason for people here not practicing may be due to not having time after posting responses. Bodhran Bliss got us wound up to 144 posts on that Irish for the Irish thread. What's the record?
Don't those opinionating brain cells go limp after awhile? (Even though it may be a bigger part of the ITM brain). Sessions are NOT performances (#402).
Individualism
Individualism
Here we go. Somebody composes a tune, let's call it "Sully's Trip to the Toilet". Now it finishes with dee dah dee, and I decide to finish it with dee dee. Is this wrong. Should the ITM fundamentalists hunt me down and put me to death?
Let's put it another way. Bob Dylan writes "All along the Watchtower", and Jimmy Hendrix does a version, and the Beatles do "With a little help from my friends" and Joe Cocker does his version. Are these people breaking rules cast in stone, or should a bit of individualism be allowed?
In other words, are Elvis impersonators the only "true" musicians? And remember, Elvis was that good that only 22 million people can do impersonations of him.
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Individualism
Yes.
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by Q
Re: Individualism
individualism is OK ONLY if you "UNDErSTAND" the music. Which clearly you don't, be you wish to play it differently.
;P
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: Individualism
As far as I'm concerned, though purists will disagree, you can arrange or alter it as you wish if it's for a performance. People will either like or loathe it!
As far as a session goes, I believe that there should be some common consensus as to how a tune is played though, if there are some people there with a slightly different setting or ornaments, it might not matter too much. I can never be bothered with those who deliberately change a tune just for the sake of it, either through boredom or to be clever. If they dislike a tune that much in its present form, why don't they just sit it out?
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by John J.
Re: Individualism
Maybe we could collaborate to compose a tune for Bodhran Bliss: "The Broken Whistle Rant." Then you could express your individualism by changing it. Does this mean you will show up to play bodhran as an Elvis impersonator?
Q.: Perhaps we can allow you to do a "Y." for yes and "N." for no. Glad to see someone that isn't a main contributor to our verbal tsunami's here.
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Individualism
Wormdiet, let me get this right. Jimmy Hendrix understood the music, so it was ok to change it, but if he wanted to change it, he must not have understood it. Is that the basic foundation of your interesting thesis?
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Individualism
As long as everyone who is playing together practices their individualism as a group (there is an oxymoron lurking here), everything is OK. But, to raise a completely hypothetical example, if everyone else slows down too quickly while the whistle player is repeating the last phrase three times, it could lead to problems. Ha ha. Seriously, as long as the participating adults consent to it, changes here and there are what keeps the music alive. You can be true to the tradition without turning it into a folk version of chamber music.
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Individualism
You dont have to change the tune to be an "individual". i might play with a bit more emphasis on the 2nd and 4th beats of a reel/ slur a phrase/play a slide, wheras the next player might do something else, and the next, and the next....
basically- variations fine, and i like it, but it has to fit the tune. Therefore to do it well, you have to have an *understanding* of the tune that allows for the variations to enhance rather than degrade the tune that's already there.
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by aaron b
Re: Individualism
"That went horribly pear shaped in the B part! What do you think you're doing?"
"I was playing note for note what Siobhan Peoples plays on Time on Our Hands."
"Wise up! We're trying to replicate the Bothy Band."
"Hang on, I thought we were playing the setting from O Neill's."
"Not you too! You bleeding individualists! If you need me, I'll be at the bar."
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Individualism
BB, I think you are comparing apples with oranges. Let me see if I can come up with a better analogy. When Emerson, Lake, & Palmer did their rock versions of classical music, no one misunderstood their intent. However, if you went to the philharmonic and some conductor decided to add a trap set to the orchestra to get a bit more groove going for a Bach cantata, there would likely be objections.
The moral of the story is, if you are playing ITM, it needs to sound pretty close to what made it traditional in the first place. On the other hand, if you want to do a different interpretation of a tune, that's fine, but you have to abide by a certain sensibility to do so and still call your version traditional. It's all a matter of what you're trying to accomplish by taking liberties.
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by Ailin
Re: Individualism
In my experience, no one play it the same. Not the same as the oldest version they know of, not the same as the latest version they've heard.
Not even great contemporary professionals, when I've heard them in several consecutive concerts.
The line between these ... 'organic' and minute variations and variations done with interpretive intent is ineffable to me... part of the wondrous mystery of the music, there to be enjoyed.
stv
# Posted on March 29th 2005 by stv culchie
Re: Individualism
This is what I mean. Went to a fleadh in 1977 in Ennis, All-Ireland and went to see a couple of competitions.In the duet section the best music and best music of the week was played by a duet, I even remember their names, Jackie Daly and Seamus Creagh. They played this slow piece with amazing fiddle harmonies, shades of Grapelli playing long, slow notes, and it was beautiful, traditional and moving. They came last.
Why? Yes, you purists and fleadh goers spotted the dreaded word, harmonies. Now if it's brilliant, and traditional, why not?
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Individualism
Bliss - absolutely correct interpretation. I am a card-carrying member of the following organizations:
]
The Classic Rock Orthodoxy (If it isn't blues-based - it isn't rawk!)
The "Ban guitar from Sessions" Brigade.
The Flat Earth Society,
and the UNited Front for COnservatism in the Arts. Innovate and Die!
[In other words, I was pulling your leg.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: Individualism
Never.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Individualism
"As long as everyone who is playing together practices their individualism as a group. . ."
Nobody beats the Japanese at that particular game.
KFG
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by KFG
Re: Individualism
"Bhain sé ceol as an saol." He really had a good old time. (lit., he reaped, extracted music from life, the world). If this is where your music is coming from (instead of just sheet music), you must be individualistic. That's the music I like best.
.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Individualism
play what makes you happy, dont worry about traditions , unless your trying to pass yourself as a traditional musician in which case you should learn about the style before you do stuff of your own.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by banana512
Re: Individualism
Happy? HAPPY? Whatever happened to suffering for your art?
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by Q
Re: Individualism
Q: No. - CC
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Individualism
CC: Why? - Padraig
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by Pádraig
Re: Individualism
But what if I'm a masochist?
KFG
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by KFG
Re: Individualism
Oh, thought I heard someone call-- woke me from my dreams--
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by CC
Re: Individualism
Where's Zina Lee?
Hath thine own PC forsaken you Zina?
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by jfiddlerh
Re: Individualism
Zina has, unfortunately, been busy with other more pressing personal commitments.
However, she is now back and has already contributed to my "practice" thread. I'm sure we are all pleased to have her with us again.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by John J.
Re: Individualism
Drat! Can't even abbreviate my name here! Padraig: remember that movie about Vincent Van Gough? Cutting off your ear and seizures at a funny farm could be interpretted as suffering for you art. However, the art itself was obviously a great joy in his life that compensated for his suffering. It was still his art extracted from life.
O.K. - we will all now take a few minutes of silent suffering for our art. Tibetan Bell chimes 3 times.
:^( :^( :^( :^( :^( :^( sniffle-burp! )^: )^: )^: )^: )^: )^:
I feel much better now!
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Individualism
Hi, JH! Actually, while I was in San Francisco for my father's funeral, my laptop died. So you could say I was forsaken by my PC, yes. I wish I could say that now I was going to buy a Mac, but I need a laptop only to teach the software programs I teach -- and they don't have a Mac version. *sigh*
Thanks, Johnny J -- I missed everyone. And all the nonsense, of course, which I see has gone on full bore and blast and all that.
Ahem. On the subject, my housemate Beth and I were bemoaning the fact that all the pop types seem to be doing covers these days and hardly any original music -- it wouldn't be so bad except that they all do them almost exactly the same as the originals! What's the fun of that?
Anyway, the let's-include-harmonies and other such stuff camp has already been answered by the pundits here at The Session -- all traditional musics must change but slowly in order to stay traditional. I suppose that's probably true of traditional dance and other arts as well.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Individualism
Condolences, Zina. Good to have you back.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by grego
Re: Individualism
Thanks, Greg -- it's awfully nice to be back, although I don't think I'm going to have near enough time to find out what happened while I was gone. Any special weirdnesses I should be warned about?
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Individualism
Far be it for me....
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by grego
Re: Individualism
Nothing unusual, Zina. There seems to be a swell in anti-bodhran sentiment lately and you'll want to be careful if you're playing with Bliss and he's been into the whiskey. That's about it.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Individualism
Condolences Zina.
The Blissful one hisself may be prone to angry outbursts using a Kazoo slammed to the floor that bounces.
I like the young but traditional Teada (with bodhran) and the non traditional Flook (with bodhran). I try not to think about this too hard. That feels like the gradual change you are talking about. I still like GOOD bodhran. Best Wishes.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Individualism
... speaking of "individualism".... gee, thanks for the acknowledgement....
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by CC
Re: Individualism
Ah, I see, Greg and Kerr - and thanks, Ceol, for both the sympathy and the warning! I'd agree about Teada, though I don't know how traditional Flook could be called as I don't know much about them. Besides, I'd listen to the bodhran all day if it meant I could watch the extremely decorative Tristan fighting off all the women, both young and old.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Individualism
My condolences as well.
"it wouldn't be so bad except that they all do them almost exactly the same as the originals! What's the fun of that?"
It not only isn't fun, it isn't even accurate.
I've posted on this phenomenon before, especially as it relates to "improvisational" jazz and blues. There are many, many people who simply do not see the inherent cognative dissonance involved in learning an improvised piece "note for note like it is on the record."
I find that when teaching I have to give explicit instruction that if you wish, for some reason or other, to emulate some perfomer or band you *cannot do it* by copying the record, because the original perfromers themselves only played it that way that once, and it has been further modified by the engineering process.
If you wish to sound like a particular performer you must understand and learn to play in their *style*, not any particular notes. If their style includes improvisation then you must, likewise, *improvise* to sound "just like" them, and all music, because of the imperfect nature of the human animal, is to some extent "improvisational"; and no two humans can ever play the same piece exactly alike. Embrace this.
One does not become the sort of great musician that others will seek to copy by copying other musicians. That will just make you a poor imitation, and only one of thousands of such poor imitations.
To become a great musician (or anything else for that matter; and one need not necessarily be highly techically skilled to be a great musician) don't copy the destination, emulate walking the path. It's an issue of perception, not rote learning, ultimately leading to your having your own style, even within the bounds of a traditional framework.
KFG
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by KFG
Re: Individualism
Thanks for the sympathy, it's much appreciated.
As to the other thing, I'd rather hear someone cover someone else's song in their own way, rather than arranging the frigging thing exactly the way it was done the first or second or third time round. Or I'd just go listen to the original version.
A standout exception to that is the Ray Conniff Singers, though. Beth and I just drove back to Denver from San Francisco straight through, and we'd appropriated a Simon and Garfunkel tape of my dad's, with the Ray Conniff Singers on the flip side. We never laughed so hard during the whole trip as we did at about 10 pm on I80, singing The Candyman, and Killing Me Softly, and many many more, in some of the worst, schmaltziest arrangements you ever heard; I thought I'd drive off the road from laughing...
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by Zina Lee
P.S.
That may have been because we were driving through Nevada at the time, though. I80 going through Nevada is one of the most boring drives God ever made.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Individualism
Kerri, why do you always mis-read my posts. I DO NOT DRINK.
Zina, your bit about covers hits the nail on the head. A new argument, sorry I mean thread, awaits. You notice I did ask if "Elvis" impersonators were the only true musicians. Change nothing. Some people would have it that way. The rest is the new thread.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Individualism
If you want boring drives, try Albuquerque to Roswell, New Mexico after Mesa airlines decides they're not going to bother flying. Then count the billboards on the return trip (after your one-hour meeting in Roswell) thet say "If you flew with Mesa, you'd be there by now!"
The one advantage of pop tune recycling is that you impress your 13-year old daughter by singing along with "If I were a rich girl, da-doo-bee-doo-bee-doo-bee-doo-da-doo-da-dooby-dooby-do."
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by grego
Kerri, please correct my spelling of Albuquerque in the above.
Many thanks.
# Posted on March 30th 2005 by grego
Re: Individualism
What kind of a meeting takes place in Roswell, fer cat's sake? Anyway, what started that whole rant was that while we were out in CA, we were in Beth's new car with only a cassette player (thus far), and so we were reduced to radio. I think every other song on the pop stations was a cover, and most of them pretty much arranged exactly as the original -- it was so depressing!
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Individualism
I could tell you, but then I'd have to erase your memory with my flashy-pen-type thing.
Lovely place, The Wal Mart has little green men painted on the outside. And there's a marker on the highway at the very spot the alien ship landed.
My son's band wants to do covers of stuff done by now-elderly people like Iron Maiden. Maybe all of the songs have been written already.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by grego
Re: Individualism
You're not another one of those International Men of Mystery, are you, Greg? I already know three people with clearances just below the goddam President, so I might as well start collecting, I guess... ;)
Tell your son that his band is going to need some kind of hook, or they'll just disappear into the sea of bands doing the same sort of thing. Like, they all cross dress and make up silly names. Oops, lots of bands doing that already too...
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Individualism
"You're not another one of those International Men of Mystery, are you, Greg?"
Wrong movie.
KFG
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by KFG
Re: Individualism
Oh, no, I caught the reference to MIB the first time, but I just wondered. Two of the people I know with that kind of clearance can't tell me anything about their jobs, what they do, where they go, or how they get there. So I call them my International Men of Mystery. I'd love to collect a full stable, I'd feel like something out of a Bond novel. Except maybe my legs aren't good enough any more... ;)
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Individualism
KFG, I've just started on this thread and read your comments several posts back about "copying" other musicians.
In my teens, when I was learning a Beethoven cello sonata and a Bach cello suite for an exam and a subsequent recital, my very perceptive cello teacher forbade me from listening to any recordings or performances while I was working on them, largely for the reasons you gave.
He was, moreover, of the opinion that a specific recording by an artist should be treated as a live performance and listened to once and once only - not quite the expensive proposition you might think, since in Bristol there was, and still is, an excellent lending library of recorded music.
Trevor
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Individualism
"I-80 going through Nevada is one of the most boring drives God ever made."
Not if you stay up for three days straight, go for a long run in 120 F. in the Dreaded 40 Mile Desert, and then start driving at 10 pm in a car with no air conditioning. The hallucinations keep the interest level high. My favorite was the 18-wheeler-sized jackrabbit sprinting across all four lanes right in front of us, just west of Winnemucca. Luckily I swerved in time to avoid hitting it. The adrenalin from that near-miss finally wore off coming into Elko. I then slept through the section into Wells (the seat belt kept me behind the wheel), where I turned north onto US 93, which makes I-80 look like the Las Vegas Strip. Pulled into Twin Falls ID at 5 am and paid $80 for a room and a 4 hour nap, then back on the road. Shudder.
Honest to god though, I-80 gets worse further east. The most boring stretch of all goes across northern Ohio. It's not the heat, it's the humidity.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Individualism
I said "boring", not hallucinagetic or painful! *snicker*
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Individualism
"I caught the reference to MIB the first time"
I figured you did, I'm just pointing out that IMoM isn't MIB, it's AP, for those who might have missed that point.
"I'd love to collect a full stable"
We're crawling with them around here. The place has gone downhill more than a bit, but back in the "Good Old Days" anyone who *didn't* look like they were labled "Top Secret" was an object of suspicion and all anybody could talk about was football. I have no real idea what my own father in law did. It's one little piece of the secret to each and no sharing.
". . .forbade me from listening to any recordings or performances while I was working on them. . ."
Well, I guess I'm conducting something of a reverese cultural experiment right now, as I've spent a part of the day playing bits of Suite No. 6 ( I love the Prelude in particular), but. . . I'm playing it on fiddle, because I don't have a cello. . . and I'm picking it up by ear from the Yo-Yo Ma recording, since I don't have the sheet music.
I have been doing a bit of cello shopping though, and to maintain the harmony of the universe I suppose when I acquire one I'll have to learn a violin partita on it, for which I have the sheet music, but no recording, because I've always relied on my local library for those.
KFG
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by KFG
Re: Individualism
I met and had words with an American President once - does that count, Zina?
(deValera, that is)
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by grego
A Question of Credibility
“Bodhranbliss” – you say above that Jacky Daly & Seamus Creagh came last in the duets at the All-Ireland Fleadh in Ennis in 1977. I have a few problems with that statement, which maybe you can explain. To begin with, how do you know they came last? Comhaltas judges, as far as I am aware only have ever announced the 1st, 2nd and 3rd places at competitions. Not even messrs Daly and Creagh would know they came last, unless they got the marks sheets of all the other competitors so that they could compare them, something which I have never heard of, as in my experience, the judges will only hand out adjudication sheets to the competitors themselves. I believe only 1 person knows who comes last in a Fleadh competition, and that would be the judge. Were you the judge on that particular occasion?
But more importantly, I too was at the 1977 Fleadh in Ennis, along with “ptarmigan”, and we were both in the audience at the Senior duets competition as well. I think we stayed for the whole competition, and I may well be wrong, but I have no recollection of Jacky Daly & Seamus Creagh being in that competition, and they are certainly not listed as competitors in the programme, which I still have.
Can you explain this, please, and satisfy my curiousity ?
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Kenny
Re: Individualism
Ok... back to the topic here. There are standard settings, and show pieces. Many times artists will change a standard tune to showcase their talent, if you learn that setting you might find yourself playing alone when you would rather be playing with everyone. Sometimes you'll discover it's in a different key even. But if people are changing the tune simply because they're bored with the music and think they can do better -- they should play some other kind of music. (I know a couple of people like this) There are some artists who you can count on to change tunes around to suit them. If I learn tunes from recordings by these people -- I do so realizing that it won't be likely to match other people's playing at sessions. If I alter tunes to suit my own playing, I'm very careful not to stray too far away from the standard version, or at least be able to play along without any zingers. If people want to play harmonies on slow tunes I think that’s great. If they’re experimenting and playing zingers – I hope I’m on the other side of the table… or at another session. If they want to play harmonies on reels and jigs it could lead to some funny looks. But at the end of the day -- we’re all individuals.
P.S. I hate it when the bodhran player does harmonies.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Individualism
BB stands for "Busted Bigtime"
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Individualism
Well. BB might suggest that there were only four entries in the competition so it might be easy to deduce that Seamus and Jacky came last. However, as they didn't take part, he's got a problem.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by John J.
Re: Individualism
There were 15 duos in the final.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Kenny
Re: Individualism
....although not all of them showed up.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Kenny
Re: Individualism
There were four turned up. I could have been third in the Banjo playing, Harvest Home, Roisin Dubh and Planxty George Brabazon. The standard was poor. Liam Hanrahan won banjo, but Sully was in the pub down the street. It was that type of year.
Maybe Jackie and Seamus entered under false names, but they played. Being an expert I recognised them.
I am also prone to slight exaggeration at times.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Individualism
So who won?
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Kenny
Re: Individualism
And it was Kieran Hanrahan who won the Senior banjo that year.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Kenny
Re: Individualism
Correct. Did Vinny from Manchester win the bodhran? Mr Hanrahan foolishly started a contretemp with my good self, I can remember his face, but obviously not his name. Did he play again?
Perhaps Jackie and Seamus were "ringers" in the u-18, I mean the GAA is run that way, so why not the music.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Individualism
Just remembered who the famous Liam Hanrahan is. Apologies to Liam.
Kenny, you ask who won. I don't even own an anorak.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Individualism
Maybe the ceoltas expunged their names from the record books, never to be spoken again.
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Jack...
"...yes, we are all individuals!"
Thanks for the tunes and the hugs this past couple of weeks!
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Zina Lee
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Individualism
The reason for people here not practicing may be due to not having time after posting responses. Bodhran Bliss got us wound up to 144 posts on that Irish for the Irish thread. What's the record?
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Individualism
"Bodhran Bliss got us wound up to 144 posts on that Irish for the Irish thread. What's the record?"
I think it might be me with over 400 posts on a thread titled: Sessions ARE public performances?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/3705/comments
# Posted on March 31st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Individualism
Well, aren't they?
KFG
# Posted on April 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: Individualism
401 now.
# Posted on April 1st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Individualism
Kevin.... careful now.
# Posted on April 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Individualism
Don't those opinionating brain cells go limp after awhile? (Even though it may be a bigger part of the ITM brain). Sessions are NOT performances (#402).
# Posted on April 1st 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Individualism
". . .careful now."
Well Jeezum Crow, what's the point of having a record if not to have a goal to achieve and surpass?
"Sessions are NOT performances"
Well, that's your opinion.
KFG
# Posted on April 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: Individualism
Didn't like the way a discussion on Individualism ended on the number 69
# Posted on April 1st 2005 by bodhran bliss