I was amused to read that Dervish do a cover of that song (personally I loathe and detest it).
However, one Friday night a guitarist/singer turned up at our otherwise diddly session and after doing the Fields of Athenry, he did a couple more tunes which were 'the Boxer' (Paul Simon) and 'Colours' (Donovan). Now if I read about that happening at any session I'd avoid it, and yet everyone in the pub loved the songs as much as the Fields and sang along. Of course, most of the people in pubs ask for songs rather than tunes, yet, don't seem to mind hearing us diddle away for hours, so I felt, fair's fair. That singer not only did familiar stuff but he faced everyone in the pub and encouraged them to sing along. Then when we went back to tunes, the customers (don't like the word punter) were engaged and listened to us more and clapped at the end of each tune.
So I feel that sometimes 'purity' can be sacrificed for the sake of a great atmosphere. Is this so wrong?
Not wrong at all in my opinion. I live about 30 or 40 miles from Branson, MO and every so often a few of the entertainers from SDC down there will come up and play at our little session. They will end up playing anything from Folk, Oldtime, to Trad and usually it's quite the performance of singing and hollering, whatever the case may be. As you stated, even after they leave, the crowd is in such high spirits that they enjoy the rest of the evening even more as well. I think diversity is a true gem at many sessions albeit many might hate me for it!
just out of curiosity, where does the term "punter" come from? It sounds kind of condescending or deprecatory to me, but I don't have a frame of reference.
I once spent an entire evening that was a lot of drunken singing of every single Beatles and Simon and Garfunkel song we could remember. It was a hoot. So long as everybody's up for it, who cares?
One of the most memorable experiences of my life was being in a hotel room in a small town in Wales, just above the pub, on karaoke night. We didn't have to attend, we could hear it all very well. ;)
It was all American 1970s pop music, though --- not one Welsh song all night, not even Calon Lan after they got sloshed. ;) (That was the first thing my Welsh cousin asked; "Did they sing hymns? If they sang hymns they were drunk. It's usually Calon Lan to start.")
The DJ was a Neil Diamond fiend, and when he couldn't get a victim to volunteer for a song he wanted done he would do it himself, but he was tone-deaf or something and sang off-key. Sweet Caroline was particularly bad, and I had to stop trying to pack because my husband's punctuation of dog-howls had me laughing too hard to be able to fold clothes. The evening's real trip was hearing "Down By The Riverside" sung in Welsh, by (apparently) the entire pub. The lot of them seemed to have a grand time and the rafters rang accordingly.
I guess I'd second Zina's point --- if that's what the sessioneers want, and if the punters are cool with it, go for it.
If it's not what the sessioneers want, then it would be reasonable to say, er, guys, can we play some diddley?
Believe it or not, it means exactly what it says. "Punter." One who operates a punt.
In the days of Old London the warf district was the rowdiest, most distreputable place in town (my, how times change, eh? ), full of sailors, prostitues, etc.
The lowest class of this group of unsavories were the punters, who carried odd cargo, passengers, whatever they could pick up freelance. . .which meant quite a bit of dealing with contraban (both items and people).
They were people that even Jack Tar thought of as dirty, uneducated, drunken gamblers, rowdies, smugglers, petty thieves and all around neerdowells. The gypsies and travelers of the waterfront.
The term is not merely condescending, it is outright derogatory.
May have been want it meant, but what it means these days is something a bit different -- although sometimes it still is derogatory in the same way the phrase "adult white male" is derogatory in some mouths. http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4794
"I might be wrong but I always thought it originated amongst the betting fraternity. . ."
". . .drunken gamblers. . ."
The punters were both the gamblers, and the people you went to see for a bit of illicit gambling, although their reputation (well earned) was for running crooked games. Thus punter becoming synomyous with gambler or tout, as well as working class (the punters being the analog of the working class of the warf district).
I'm addressing the etymology of the word, not the modern meaning, because that is what was asked.
Certainly punter never meant punter to a punter, just as tinker has never meant tinker to a tinker.
I thoroughly agree with John. I have experienced those jam sessions that include old time American music plus traditional Irish and Scottish music. They are really fun.
Personally, I can't be having with too much of the "jam session" thing. I enjoy them every now and again, but it's Irish music that I most enjoy playing, so I tend to seek out the all-Irish sessions more than anything else.
As is every other derogatory word that I can think of, including that one beginning with "N" that is deemed so offensive that no Adult White Male may utter it, even when giving sworn testimony in court as to what was said.
As I said, punter didn't mean punter to a punter.
That doesn't, of course, mean you should feel overly free about using derogatory terms "affectionately," unless you're a :
I hate it whenever someone in the session group does something to attract the active involvement or reaction of the gentry in the pub. It's like we're pretending we're happy in our own little world, the pub customers are happy that a little bit of background atmosphere type stuff is happening. And then someone goes and spoils it all by being getting in "stage-character" and announcing what's going to be done next, or whatever.
On the other hand, I enjoy this stuff if we actually are on stage - it would be embarrasing if it didn't happen.
Oh, give it a rest, Kevin, this isn't rocket science, or even something that really matters. Lots of people use "punter" simply to mean "a guy who sits in the bar while we're playing" and have absolutely no idea nor do they care about where the term originally came from.
As for Michael Gill, I am quite fond of him, troublemaker though he loves to be. I think of him as a less overtly affectionate Mark Anderson. (Sorry, Dow. *smirk*) Besides, I'm up on him on the point scale, so i can afford to be fond of him at the moment.
I'll go along with Zina here (..h-hi z-zina...he says timidly...) - and not to form strategic alliances.
Firstly, I've heard gamblers saying "Haw youse, Ahm aff tae the bookie's shoap fur a wee punt" ("I say chaps, I'm going off to the turf accountants for a small bet" in English) so unless the term punter has been stripped down to what the punter does, put on a punt, or bet, I'm wrong, but WTF cares? I don't have time to look up online dictionaries just to prove some arcane little point.
Next, I don't think it equates with the N-word. Even if it did start out in life as derogatory, I agree with ZLS it now means in an un-rogatory (or whatever) sense, a hapless, not unpleasant bar-proper-upperer. Also, as an example of a term which started off derogatory but is now one of respect...and this time I'm not bullsh!tting to tease the easily wind-upable...is: Prime Minister. Wallpole (the first British Prime Minister) earned that title as a sarcastic joke, but it soon became a title with gravitas.
....but getting back to Cath's original point of debate, yes and no, there's a time and a place. That Friday session could surely only be enhanced by such an interlude. The Blythe could occasionally cope with such a "popular" interlude, but a short one, but try doing that at the session I was at on Sunday, Power's Bar in Kilburn. Sean Casey (Bobby's Boy)would sit there stoney faced until he'd decide he'd had enough, then stookie the crooner to the floor. No worries, St. Mary's Hospital is only 3 miles away....
Punter means 'someone who has a punt (bet)
As opposed to a Bookie, or performer/musician say.
It's a way of describing someone who's relation to an activity is passive, or maybe in a position where they can be taken advantage of.
That's the way it's used in England and Ireland. It's origins may be more nautical(!) - but that definition smacks of something lifted from Wikipedia or suchlike, without any contemporary insight (or indeed value).
Thankyou, Kevin, for answering the question, "just out of curiosity, where does the term "punter" come from? It sounds kind of condescending or deprecatory..."
I've always wondered, myself, but been too drunk to remember to ask. I'll stop using it fron now on. Actually, a [insert 'punter' substitute here] came up to me a while ago saying she reads our conversations and is embarassed to be considered a 'punter' by the 'musicians'. I don't blame her. It's an ugly word, especially now that I know the origin.
(Actually, JNW, I hope you catch this conversation. Your comments have stuck with me and your efforts the Cajun Accadian festival was appreciated by the band, even though the banjo wasn't perfect.)
And I usually call the non-musicians at our session "the peanut gallery," which is an old reference to the cheap seats (well, they stood up actually, the whole length of Hamlet, if you can imagine that) in Elizabethan theaters. I figure that's more polite than the inherent sarcasm if I called them "our fans in the box seats."
I'm with Ottery - I don't think the criminal boatmen story is the correct derivation of 'punter'. Since the modern (British) sense is something like 'customer, crowd, audience', it makes more sense that it's from the betting terminology. And it is only just barely derogatory, and nowhere *near* the N-word, for God's sake! That's just plain daft...
I always believed that it was derived from "betting" and it was likely to be an Irish term originally. "Punt" means "pound" in Ireland so they talk about "having a punt" on this horse and so on.
The word can be used in a derogatory fashion but also as a term of affection. It really depends on the tone or attitude of the person using it and the circumstances. So, there's not usually a need to be offended by it.
"And it is only just barely derogatory, and nowhere *near* the N-word, for God's sake! That's just plain daft..."
Like "Jew," which was originally highly derogatory (slang for Judean, as today Hebe is short for Hebrew, and derogatory), just like the "N" word. And just as Yankee Doodle is an English song that is highly dergatory of American colonials.
It is common for derogatory words to be accepted by those they are aimed against as a sort of badge of honor, as the "N" word is often used by blacks.
"Bitch" is going through that process right now, and there is a feminist magizine entitled "Bitch," the word being used to denote a self-assured woman.
And so, over time, words that were intended to offend a particular group often become the proper noun adopted for use by that very same group.
It happens in common language as well, "Damn, that fiddle player be a baaaaaaaaaaaad Mother****er!"
There are three negative words in that sentence, all of which are being used to express something positive.
Right - no acrimony this time, but look. Your claim that Punter is as bad as, or even in the same league as the N-word is more dangerous than at first glance. Because while most people here who have replied seem to think Punter is a harmless word, so conversely that trivialises the N-word.
Why shouldn't the work nigger be trivialized? It's the sentiment of racism that holds the evil, not the words used to express it. Putting little ***** on our racist terminology just shows we still take it seriously enough to be shocked and aghast. I think it would be great if we went way beyond trivializing shocking combinations of letters and began dismissing racist attitudes as archaic and irrelevant.
You know, kind of the way we're all sitting around saying "Come on, what's so offensive about the word 'punter'?" just because an insult based on class divisions is tough to take seriously in these days.
It's no easier for me to take insults based on skin colour seriously, but I do realize the rest of the world has some distance to go in that department. I don't think it helps the progress to insist on turning descriptions of skin colour into dirty words.
Because that racist sentiment IS expressed in words and one such word is the N-word (which I won't use as I still think its offensive). It's that simple. Semantics and semiotics. It's all very well to suggest that racist attitudes are archaic etc., and they may well be amongst members of this board, but in fact they are frighteningly alive and well in the real world. I had worked as a building site carpenter for long enough to know that.
"Punter" may or may not be based on class division (as has been argued here) but it doesn't have that connotation now. As for MY take of it in our world, it just means a person in the pub, who may or may not be listening to the session. Whereas the N-word is still quite simply a term of racist abuse. In fact, I suspect it is *more so* nowadays than in say the 19th Century, as it is a corruption of negro, which, as you know, is Spanish for black.
All that said, I won't be tempted to use...erm.... the P-word again....
I dunno. Seems to me no-one's argued convincingly that "punter" didn't stem from a class division, just that the origin is irrelevant, because now it means something harmless. I think it would be great if the same thing happened to "nigger", "chink", and (for what it's worth) "honky".
Erm .. Kerri ... er ....
no one has argued - convincingly or not - that the term 'Punter' has any class bias whatsoever.
As to 'how offensive is it - well it doesn't even enter the same arena as Nigger, Yid, Jewboy, Paki etc. - It doesn't come from the same Master/Slave, Dominant Culture/Oppressed Culture thing at all. It isn't a legacy of imperialism – It merely derives from the concept of one group in a society taking advantage of another. It is on the same level as Sucker, chump, dolt, drip, dupe, fall guy, fool, gull, idiot, jerk, mark, nincompoop, ninny, nitwit, pigeon, schlemiel, simpleton, twit, or indeed, weakling
The Social Class of the Punter. or bookie, is irrelevant.
As is the word 'Honky', which I believe has never caused one iota of fear, or caused any white person to feel oppressed or devalued since the beginning of history ......
But what the f*ck do I know. Maybe Montreal is full of Honky Punters scared to go out in case they get lynched ....
The punters are the audience. You know, the ones taking a gamble on listening to you or me playing. To suggest that it is anything like "Paki" "Nigger" "Hebe" "Spic" "wop" "Greaser" or anything else, is plain nonsence.
Actually, Danny, it's Kevin who suggested it ages and ages ago:
"The lowest class of this group of unsavories were the punters, who carried odd cargo, passengers, whatever they could pick up freelance. . . The term is not merely condescending, it is outright derogatory."
Note how he uses the word "class" there.
Mark, I don't actually know any people of African, Jewish, Asian, Spanish, or Indian descent who are afraid to get lynched walking through the streets of Montreal. I was engaged to a Guatemalan, and two of my three room-mates are non-white. As far as I'm aware, none of them has ever been lynched.
Come to think of it, I happen to be female and I've never been burned at the stake.
So, yeah, maybe central Canada is a glorious paradise of multi-culturalism where getting all aghast at silly words like "Spic" seems a little over the top.
Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
I was amused to read that Dervish do a cover of that song (personally I loathe and detest it).
However, one Friday night a guitarist/singer turned up at our otherwise diddly session and after doing the Fields of Athenry, he did a couple more tunes which were 'the Boxer' (Paul Simon) and 'Colours' (Donovan). Now if I read about that happening at any session I'd avoid it, and yet everyone in the pub loved the songs as much as the Fields and sang along. Of course, most of the people in pubs ask for songs rather than tunes, yet, don't seem to mind hearing us diddle away for hours, so I felt, fair's fair. That singer not only did familiar stuff but he faced everyone in the pub and encouraged them to sing along. Then when we went back to tunes, the customers (don't like the word punter) were engaged and listened to us more and clapped at the end of each tune.
So I feel that sometimes 'purity' can be sacrificed for the sake of a great atmosphere. Is this so wrong?
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Cath
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Not wrong at all in my opinion. I live about 30 or 40 miles from Branson, MO and every so often a few of the entertainers from SDC down there will come up and play at our little session. They will end up playing anything from Folk, Oldtime, to Trad and usually it's quite the performance of singing and hollering, whatever the case may be. As you stated, even after they leave, the crowd is in such high spirits that they enjoy the rest of the evening even more as well. I think diversity is a true gem at many sessions albeit many might hate me for it!
Take care,
John
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by McHaffie
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
just out of curiosity, where does the term "punter" come from? It sounds kind of condescending or deprecatory to me, but I don't have a frame of reference.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by 2ndFiddle
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
I once spent an entire evening that was a lot of drunken singing of every single Beatles and Simon and Garfunkel song we could remember. It was a hoot. So long as everybody's up for it, who cares?
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
I work with glass and the indentation in the bottom of a wine bottle is called a punt. What do you make of that!?!
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Emily Horne
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
One of the most memorable experiences of my life was being in a hotel room in a small town in Wales, just above the pub, on karaoke night. We didn't have to attend, we could hear it all very well. ;)
It was all American 1970s pop music, though --- not one Welsh song all night, not even Calon Lan after they got sloshed. ;) (That was the first thing my Welsh cousin asked; "Did they sing hymns? If they sang hymns they were drunk. It's usually Calon Lan to start.")
The DJ was a Neil Diamond fiend, and when he couldn't get a victim to volunteer for a song he wanted done he would do it himself, but he was tone-deaf or something and sang off-key. Sweet Caroline was particularly bad, and I had to stop trying to pack because my husband's punctuation of dog-howls had me laughing too hard to be able to fold clothes. The evening's real trip was hearing "Down By The Riverside" sung in Welsh, by (apparently) the entire pub. The lot of them seemed to have a grand time and the rafters rang accordingly.
I guess I'd second Zina's point --- if that's what the sessioneers want, and if the punters are cool with it, go for it.
If it's not what the sessioneers want, then it would be reasonable to say, er, guys, can we play some diddley?
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by sara g
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
". . .where does the term "punter" come from?"
Believe it or not, it means exactly what it says. "Punter." One who operates a punt.
In the days of Old London the warf district was the rowdiest, most distreputable place in town (my, how times change, eh? ), full of sailors, prostitues, etc.
The lowest class of this group of unsavories were the punters, who carried odd cargo, passengers, whatever they could pick up freelance. . .which meant quite a bit of dealing with contraban (both items and people).
They were people that even Jack Tar thought of as dirty, uneducated, drunken gamblers, rowdies, smugglers, petty thieves and all around neerdowells. The gypsies and travelers of the waterfront.
The term is not merely condescending, it is outright derogatory.
KFG
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by KFG
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
May have been want it meant, but what it means these days is something a bit different -- although sometimes it still is derogatory in the same way the phrase "adult white male" is derogatory in some mouths. http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4794
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Hey John McHaffie, do you do the tune from Simpsons at all?
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Cath
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
"I might be wrong but I always thought it originated amongst the betting fraternity. . ."
". . .drunken gamblers. . ."
The punters were both the gamblers, and the people you went to see for a bit of illicit gambling, although their reputation (well earned) was for running crooked games. Thus punter becoming synomyous with gambler or tout, as well as working class (the punters being the analog of the working class of the warf district).
I'm addressing the etymology of the word, not the modern meaning, because that is what was asked.
Certainly punter never meant punter to a punter, just as tinker has never meant tinker to a tinker.
KFG
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by KFG
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
I thoroughly agree with John. I have experienced those jam sessions that include old time American music plus traditional Irish and Scottish music. They are really fun.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Often "punter" is quite affectionate, actually. Speaking non-etymologically.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Personally, I can't be having with too much of the "jam session" thing. I enjoy them every now and again, but it's Irish music that I most enjoy playing, so I tend to seek out the all-Irish sessions more than anything else.
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Zina: so if MG calls me "Joe Punter," he's being affectionate? Speaking non-etymologically - Oh Gwa-eeeeeeesh!
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
"Often "punter" is quite affectionate. . ."
As is every other derogatory word that I can think of, including that one beginning with "N" that is deemed so offensive that no Adult White Male may utter it, even when giving sworn testimony in court as to what was said.
As I said, punter didn't mean punter to a punter.
That doesn't, of course, mean you should feel overly free about using derogatory terms "affectionately," unless you're a :
Danger Seeker!
KFG
# Posted on March 16th 2005 by KFG
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Since when does MG do affection?
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by kris
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Oh come on, Kris, he's not *that* bad. He's been known to say nice things, and even to argue passionately in favor of something he loves.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by sara g
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
I hate it whenever someone in the session group does something to attract the active involvement or reaction of the gentry in the pub. It's like we're pretending we're happy in our own little world, the pub customers are happy that a little bit of background atmosphere type stuff is happening. And then someone goes and spoils it all by being getting in "stage-character" and announcing what's going to be done next, or whatever.
On the other hand, I enjoy this stuff if we actually are on stage - it would be embarrasing if it didn't happen.
Time and a place for everything, I suppose.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by grego
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Oh, give it a rest, Kevin, this isn't rocket science, or even something that really matters. Lots of people use "punter" simply to mean "a guy who sits in the bar while we're playing" and have absolutely no idea nor do they care about where the term originally came from.
As for Michael Gill, I am quite fond of him, troublemaker though he loves to be. I think of him as a less overtly affectionate Mark Anderson. (Sorry, Dow. *smirk*) Besides, I'm up on him on the point scale, so i can afford to be fond of him at the moment.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
I'll go along with Zina here (..h-hi z-zina...he says timidly...) - and not to form strategic alliances.
Firstly, I've heard gamblers saying "Haw youse, Ahm aff tae the bookie's shoap fur a wee punt" ("I say chaps, I'm going off to the turf accountants for a small bet" in English) so unless the term punter has been stripped down to what the punter does, put on a punt, or bet, I'm wrong, but WTF cares? I don't have time to look up online dictionaries just to prove some arcane little point.
Next, I don't think it equates with the N-word. Even if it did start out in life as derogatory, I agree with ZLS it now means in an un-rogatory (or whatever) sense, a hapless, not unpleasant bar-proper-upperer. Also, as an example of a term which started off derogatory but is now one of respect...and this time I'm not bullsh!tting to tease the easily wind-upable...is: Prime Minister. Wallpole (the first British Prime Minister) earned that title as a sarcastic joke, but it soon became a title with gravitas.
....but getting back to Cath's original point of debate, yes and no, there's a time and a place. That Friday session could surely only be enhanced by such an interlude. The Blythe could occasionally cope with such a "popular" interlude, but a short one, but try doing that at the session I was at on Sunday, Power's Bar in Kilburn. Sean Casey (Bobby's Boy)would sit there stoney faced until he'd decide he'd had enough, then stookie the crooner to the floor. No worries, St. Mary's Hospital is only 3 miles away....
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Punter means 'someone who has a punt (bet)
As opposed to a Bookie, or performer/musician say.
It's a way of describing someone who's relation to an activity is passive, or maybe in a position where they can be taken advantage of.
That's the way it's used in England and Ireland. It's origins may be more nautical(!) - but that definition smacks of something lifted from Wikipedia or suchlike, without any contemporary insight (or indeed value).
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
We do all sorts, including a blues song wot I wrote, all about women loving me. Amazingly popular with the "Billy Bunters".
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Thankyou, Kevin, for answering the question, "just out of curiosity, where does the term "punter" come from? It sounds kind of condescending or deprecatory..."
I've always wondered, myself, but been too drunk to remember to ask. I'll stop using it fron now on. Actually, a [insert 'punter' substitute here] came up to me a while ago saying she reads our conversations and is embarassed to be considered a 'punter' by the 'musicians'. I don't blame her. It's an ugly word, especially now that I know the origin.
(Actually, JNW, I hope you catch this conversation. Your comments have stuck with me and your efforts the Cajun Accadian festival was appreciated by the band, even though the banjo wasn't perfect.)
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Kerri Brown
"fron" is inebriese for "from". Anyway, I'll be filing "punter" with "heebie jeebies" and start learning some names.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Kerri, you have my permission to replace heebie jeebies with "the willies." I don't mind.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
And I usually call the non-musicians at our session "the peanut gallery," which is an old reference to the cheap seats (well, they stood up actually, the whole length of Hamlet, if you can imagine that) in Elizabethan theaters. I figure that's more polite than the inherent sarcasm if I called them "our fans in the box seats."
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Danny, you timid? ;) Hugs across the pond, dude.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
I'm with Ottery - I don't think the criminal boatmen story is the correct derivation of 'punter'. Since the modern (British) sense is something like 'customer, crowd, audience', it makes more sense that it's from the betting terminology. And it is only just barely derogatory, and nowhere *near* the N-word, for God's sake! That's just plain daft...
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Nell
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
I always believed that it was derived from "betting" and it was likely to be an Irish term originally. "Punt" means "pound" in Ireland so they talk about "having a punt" on this horse and so on.
The word can be used in a derogatory fashion but also as a term of affection. It really depends on the tone or attitude of the person using it and the circumstances. So, there's not usually a need to be offended by it.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by John J.
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
According to the Oxford English Dictionary (which never, ever lies):
Punt (v) 1706 [ FR ponter ] player against the bank, to lay a stake against the bank, to bet upon a horse
Punter:
1. a player who 'punts' or plays against the bank
2. a small professional backer of horses
Seems it's related to "Point" and the boat is a separate word.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by JerryH
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
To replace heebie jeebies willie nillie is hoity toity.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Shrog
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Well, aren't you a mamby pamby mucky muck.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
'ere, you lot. Stop fannying about.
# Posted on March 17th 2005 by Q
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
"And it is only just barely derogatory, and nowhere *near* the N-word, for God's sake! That's just plain daft..."
Like "Jew," which was originally highly derogatory (slang for Judean, as today Hebe is short for Hebrew, and derogatory), just like the "N" word. And just as Yankee Doodle is an English song that is highly dergatory of American colonials.
It is common for derogatory words to be accepted by those they are aimed against as a sort of badge of honor, as the "N" word is often used by blacks.
"Bitch" is going through that process right now, and there is a feminist magizine entitled "Bitch," the word being used to denote a self-assured woman.
And so, over time, words that were intended to offend a particular group often become the proper noun adopted for use by that very same group.
It happens in common language as well, "Damn, that fiddle player be a baaaaaaaaaaaad Mother****er!"
There are three negative words in that sentence, all of which are being used to express something positive.
KFG
# Posted on March 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Right - no acrimony this time, but look. Your claim that Punter is as bad as, or even in the same league as the N-word is more dangerous than at first glance. Because while most people here who have replied seem to think Punter is a harmless word, so conversely that trivialises the N-word.
# Posted on March 18th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Why shouldn't the work nigger be trivialized? It's the sentiment of racism that holds the evil, not the words used to express it. Putting little ***** on our racist terminology just shows we still take it seriously enough to be shocked and aghast. I think it would be great if we went way beyond trivializing shocking combinations of letters and began dismissing racist attitudes as archaic and irrelevant.
You know, kind of the way we're all sitting around saying "Come on, what's so offensive about the word 'punter'?" just because an insult based on class divisions is tough to take seriously in these days.
It's no easier for me to take insults based on skin colour seriously, but I do realize the rest of the world has some distance to go in that department. I don't think it helps the progress to insist on turning descriptions of skin colour into dirty words.
# Posted on March 18th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Because that racist sentiment IS expressed in words and one such word is the N-word (which I won't use as I still think its offensive). It's that simple. Semantics and semiotics. It's all very well to suggest that racist attitudes are archaic etc., and they may well be amongst members of this board, but in fact they are frighteningly alive and well in the real world. I had worked as a building site carpenter for long enough to know that.
"Punter" may or may not be based on class division (as has been argued here) but it doesn't have that connotation now. As for MY take of it in our world, it just means a person in the pub, who may or may not be listening to the session. Whereas the N-word is still quite simply a term of racist abuse. In fact, I suspect it is *more so* nowadays than in say the 19th Century, as it is a corruption of negro, which, as you know, is Spanish for black.
All that said, I won't be tempted to use...erm.... the P-word again....
:~}
# Posted on March 18th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
I dunno. Seems to me no-one's argued convincingly that "punter" didn't stem from a class division, just that the origin is irrelevant, because now it means something harmless. I think it would be great if the same thing happened to "nigger", "chink", and (for what it's worth) "honky".
# Posted on March 18th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
...or "Goy"
:~}
Nobody has argued that P-word didn't stem from a class division because that notion was first suggested by you just a couple of posts up from here.
Anyway, I'm off to look at some other threads now.
Byee!!
# Posted on March 19th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Erm .. Kerri ... er ....
no one has argued - convincingly or not - that the term 'Punter' has any class bias whatsoever.
As to 'how offensive is it - well it doesn't even enter the same arena as Nigger, Yid, Jewboy, Paki etc. - It doesn't come from the same Master/Slave, Dominant Culture/Oppressed Culture thing at all. It isn't a legacy of imperialism – It merely derives from the concept of one group in a society taking advantage of another. It is on the same level as Sucker, chump, dolt, drip, dupe, fall guy, fool, gull, idiot, jerk, mark, nincompoop, ninny, nitwit, pigeon, schlemiel, simpleton, twit, or indeed, weakling
The Social Class of the Punter. or bookie, is irrelevant.
As is the word 'Honky', which I believe has never caused one iota of fear, or caused any white person to feel oppressed or devalued since the beginning of history ......
But what the f*ck do I know. Maybe Montreal is full of Honky Punters scared to go out in case they get lynched ....
# Posted on March 19th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
The punters are the audience. You know, the ones taking a gamble on listening to you or me playing. To suggest that it is anything like "Paki" "Nigger" "Hebe" "Spic" "wop" "Greaser" or anything else, is plain nonsence.
I can't abide racists or bigots.
# Posted on March 20th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
Actually, Danny, it's Kevin who suggested it ages and ages ago:
"The lowest class of this group of unsavories were the punters, who carried odd cargo, passengers, whatever they could pick up freelance. . . The term is not merely condescending, it is outright derogatory."
Note how he uses the word "class" there.
Mark, I don't actually know any people of African, Jewish, Asian, Spanish, or Indian descent who are afraid to get lynched walking through the streets of Montreal. I was engaged to a Guatemalan, and two of my three room-mates are non-white. As far as I'm aware, none of them has ever been lynched.
Come to think of it, I happen to be female and I've never been burned at the stake.
So, yeah, maybe central Canada is a glorious paradise of multi-culturalism where getting all aghast at silly words like "Spic" seems a little over the top.
# Posted on March 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
heard Dervish doing the song in question and to be honest it's not bad at all. Maybe that's just because Cathy's singing ...
# Posted on March 22nd 2005 by Lizzy