The Session >> Discussions >> violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
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violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
there is an obvious distinction between fiddle and violin.
(same gear, different style)
now, someone who says s/he plays flute, does one automatically understand this as wooden or metal?
(different gear, same or different style)
what i mean is: "started playing flute at the age of 12", does this mean wooden or metal flute? shouldn't there be/isn't there a different word to distinguish both instruments? or different styles of music (traverso vs flute)? or different systems (simple system vs boehm system)? or the player h/er/imself (flautist vs flute player)?
en bref: what single word would you use to point out that you (or someone) play "wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition" ?
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
I wouldn't, because it takes a minimum of two words to do the job, as it does in many languages to distinguish between the "recorder" and the transverse flute.
"Irish Flute" does the job nicely (although not all Irish flutes are actually wooden, just as not all fiddles are actually violins, but if you belong to that minority you're simply going to have to get used to explaining yourself in more detail).
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
In the spirit of those here who are addicted to acronyms such as ITM (Intra-Thoracic Measurements) STM (Superior Temporal Macropathology) and sh*tE music (Scottish-Hybridised Irish with Traditional English music)
might I propose the use of SWIFT for Simple Wooden Irish Flute (Transverse) and BUST flute for Boehm Universal System (Transverse) flute.
To seriously answer your question, I play both but am more comfortable with Boehm system, especially at sessions, but I believe it's the style it's played in.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Just to expland - although there are some things you can't do on the Boehm system that you can on simple system, you get good volume with a Boehm job - I use a blackwood Boehm. But it's more to do with how it's played, ornamentation etc.
I suppose in that sense it paralells the fiddle/violin dichotomy.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
". . .I use a blackwood Boehm."
Boehm's advised material, actually, at least for the average player.
". . .you get good volume with a Boehm job. . ."
And illustrative of the fact that there is more going on than the choice of material or the "system" in the sound Take the keys off of a Blackwood Boehm, plug up the appropriate holes, and you have a simple system flute with all the volume of a Boehm flute. Is a puzzlement.
Of course Peter Broderick won the all Ireland with a cylindrical metal simple system flute, I make and play them myself, you can get a genuine silver conical bore simple system piccolo, wooden "Irish simple system" flutes with conical bores and keys on 'em and cylindrical bore Irish simple system flutes with shaped headjoints, etc, etc, etc.
And then there are the French flutes to complicate matters even further and where do Quenas ( a "fippleless whistle" ) fit into the picture?
This catagorization business turns out to be damned trickey work.
"But it's more to do with how it's played, ornamentation etc."
Yes, I tend to agree with you, and there any number of Boehm players who sound perfectly Irish, and any number of simple "folk" flute players who don't even attempt to sound Irish, let alone succeed.
However, I will note:
". . .there are some things you can't do on the Boehm system that you can on simple system. . ."
How it's played and the style of ornamentation that is considered traditional derives directly from converting older style English keyed flutes into simple flutes.
Nothing is simple, not even "simple" flutes.
"I suppose in that sense it paralells the fiddle/violin dichotomy."
Ah, but what do we do with my fiddle that isn't a violin?
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Swift. I like that, Danny. Gonna use it interchangeably with 'stick', 'chopper' and 'jedi jigsaw'. Although it has been argued that 'Jigsaw' is more appropriate a term for a fiddle.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Don't be so stoopid!
There's no way I'm going to take the keys off and plug up holes in my rather expensive blackwood Boehm flute just to prove some half-baked notion. I've got enough on my plate to do before I start fannying about like that.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Well, I'd be happy to sell you a rather expensive (although considerably less expensive than the original, since I wouldn't have to deal with the keywork at all in the first place) alternate barrel made up in simulation of the same, if that's what you'd prefer.
Or we could just skip the whole thing and agree that adding keys to a flute doesn't add volume to it, and thus removing them doesn't detract from it.
"Swift. I like that, Danny."
I'm rather fond of sh*tE myself. I often tell people my playing is sh*tE, but they don't always believe me. Now I can prove it.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
I use the terms "orchestral flute" and "Irish flute" to make the distinction. If more explanation is needed, I give it. Key clatter is the chief problem I find in using an orchestral flute for trad. However, they are great for airs and songs, especially in the lower register. Also nice for jamming with harpers.
Ah, harpers. Well there's another distinction problem. I am told that a harper plays trad and a harpist plays classical. Does that make it clear enough for you?
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
hell, i wasn't arround for some hours and look what happens ...
@ ottery: why? because!
@ KFG: ("irish flute" might work, only, mine is belgian, and i also play flemish/scandinavian/north-african/... music)
and what other instrument than a violin can you use to fiddle?
@ pingu: SWIFT has a ring to it, but i'm not really looking for an acronym, since to explain the acronym would take longer then to say 'simple system wooden ... ' and it is not only the style (hence fiddle/violin). your boehm-analogy might work, but i definitely see boehm as a different instrument (like clarinet vs soprano sax).
@ KFG again: you make my whole question seem ridiculous but let's just stick to the two types most commonly known in this music: keyed or keyless conical (simple system) and boehm.
i don't want to start a discussion about which of the dozains of pure and hybrid systems is preferably (each plays the one he prefers), there's enough of that on the woodenflutesite ...
nor am i looking for a new invented word, i am just wondering whether a name for the thing is existing ...
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Oooooooooh no! Don't get me going on harps, or ostrichfeathers and I are likely to highjack the thread into long, academic treatises arguing over whether or not people playing Irish fiddle dance music on nylon strung Welsh harps in the continental style are actually ITM harpers at all.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Cross posted:
"KFG: ("irish flute" might work, only, mine is belgian, and i also play flemish/scandinavian/north-african/... music)"
Well, my Irish Flute is American. That's ok, my Irish whistle is English and my Irish fiddle (which is really Italian) is Chinese. My American 5 string banjo and steel string guitar are both Japanese. My Quena used to be a genuine Indian made one from the Andes, but that's gone missing and I've replaced with an American one.
I play Irish music on all of them, and I play non Irish music on all of them. That doesn't make the 5 string banjo any more "Irish" or the fiddle any less Italian.
"KFG again: you make my whole question seem ridiculous. . ."
It's not that your question is ridiculous, per se, it's just that there's not one good answer that will cover all the bases, as per PB's keyless cyclindrical copper flute with which he won the All Ireland competition. It's hard to claim that isn't an Irish flute, and yet it doesn't meet a single criteria for being an Irish flute.
". . let's just stick to the two types most commonly known in this music: keyed or keyless conical (simple system) and boehm."
But, as per my original post, if one does not wish to cover all the bases things get much easier, and we can leave those who play something out of what is considered the norm (like the Wavin Pipe crowd, although this past Sunday I started to explain to a young lady in a coffee house that my Bristol Pipe was an "Irish Flute" and she looked at me with disdain and said "I know that." So even simple system Wavin Pipes are readily identifiable as Irish Flutes by Americans in a non Irish trad setting) to make the lengthy explanations.
"i am just wondering whether a name for the thing is existing ..."
Yes. "Irish Flute", which is specifically a wooden, D, conical bore flute derived from the English, pre Boehm, C flute, which may, or may not have keys (and thus may or may not actually be a D flute as well) and is a)actually uniquely Irish, so the name identifies it uniquely, and b) modern ( the older ones actually being English flutes with the keys knocked off, or taped over, or just ignored, or whatever)
Google on "Irish flute" and you should find plenty of confirmation of the name, as well as its historical background.
Technically my Bristol Pipe and PB's copper one are *not* Irish flutes, but simply "folk" flutes that we happen to play Irish music on, like my quena.
". . .and what other instrument than a violin can you use to fiddle?"
Rebec, viol, viola, teardrop, Hardanger, kit, saw sam sai, many others, including a few of my own devising and, of course, that old Roman instrument from which the word "fiddle" derives. All of these are fiddles. All of them can be used to play Irish fiddle music on. None of them are violins (the viola is a member of the violin family, but is not a violin).The common dictionary definition of "fiddle" as a member of the violin family is actually wrong. The violin is a member of the fiddle family. Violin is specifically the Amati pattern ( he didn't invent it, but he created the set pattern that has been followed since) Baroque Italian soprano instrument, which is why the things still retain the silly tuning pegs even though we've invented gears since then. Technically most electric "violins" aren't, they're fiddles, just as technically my Bristol Pipe isn't an Irish flute, it's a "folk" flute (which is actually a catchall class of simple flutes which may or may not have traditional provenence, depending on context, but which excludes certain other, and sometimes identical, flutes for purely historical reasons).
They just happen to look a lot alike, play a lot alike and are interchangable with each other.
Things get all weird when you try to be technically precise, I'm afraid, because musical instruments really exist in classes mor e than they do as individuals, as per the difference between the violin and viola, barely distinguishable from each other, and yet each bearing a unique, technical (although arbitrary) definition.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Just o clarify something the Bohem Flute is louder because of a wider bore that is also why it has keys over the main 6 holes because they would be too big and too hard to reach and cover without the keys.
On lots of older Irish recordings, the flute is listed as "concert flute", which I always assumed was code for "wooden". I was wrong though, as I've seen both timber and Boehm flutes called by that name.
KFG: I wouldn't call a Quena a "fippleless whistle", I'd call it an end-blown flute, which is how it's usually described in the Great Big Book of Thing Taxonomy. There's one thing UN-complicated. (-:
btw, I've given up trying to explain the difference in flutes to non-fluteplayers, as it's generally not worth the effort and cuts into my drinking time.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Gzeg, I've only come across one person who uses the term concert flute, and he learned flute yonks ago on wooden Bb and Eb flutes in some kind of wind band where concert flute meant "concert pitch" flute, as in A fingering = A concert pitch, whether metal or wood. Maybe that's what they meant?
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
The term "concert flute" refers to the 8-key wooden flute more popularly known as an Irish flute today. It is called an Irish flute simply because that is what it is almost exclusively used for now. However, originally, it was the concert flute of the orchestra. We've only had the Boehm flute since the 1850s. The flute Beethoven and Mozart wrote for was the 8-key flute we now use for ITM.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Just a note: removing the keys and plugging up most of them wouldn't turn a Boehm system flute into a simple system flute.
Simple system flutes have a cylincrical head and a conical body. Boehm flutes, no matter how keyed, have a cylindrical body and a tapered ("parabolic") head.
That conical bore, IMHO, has a lot to do with the characteristic sound of the simple system flute. Boehm flutes can sound quite good, but it is a different sound.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Thanks James, I thought that, but wasn't sure, so I didn't post it! I agree it is a different sound, but not remotely so. I repeat it's what you do with it. For example, we had a guy playing a piano accordion at our session last night. But the way he played, the ornamentation, rhythm and feeling he put into it made it sound like a superbly-played button accordion. (Not that the PA isn't valid in its own right, though!)
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Nah, Matt, just a "normal" Boehm, but made of blackwood. I have tried one of those and found it bliddy impossible! ...and found it didn't confer much advantage anyway...more trouble than they're worth (in MY view.)
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
My ex played a French-model Boehm with holes in the keys and a low B foot. It was a Pearl, which is supposed to be one of the best, but I warn't impressed.
A tip to anyone considering buying a Boehm: I've owned a solid-silver Armstrong (most silver flutes are either silver plated or have only a solid silver head joint) for many years. It could do with an overhaul, but there are not as many qualified flute repair people as there used to be. A friend of mine got his hands on one of those dirt cheap Bestler flutes that you can get from some sources for under a hundred dollars. It is a no-frills model. Plastic case, nickel body, etc. However, it plays like a dream and has a very rich sound. I guess flutes are easier and cheaper to make with precision than they used to be. I bought it off him for 50 bucks, and it is now my workhorse flute when I'm not using my wooden Casey Burns (best wooden flute I've ever played). The moral is, you don't have to pay top dollar to get a good instrument. Be careful, but don't be afraid to check out the cheaper models.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Biddy - we had a good discussion about this a couple of years ago - and much was said about Paddy Carty's flute, a lot of informative stuff came out (including me wrongly claiming that the Radcliff was a Boehm!), so maybe, out of interest, you'd want to look at it:
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Q, FWIW, my "typewriter" has holes in the pads. I got 'em plugged, to be honest. I can see why people want 'em but to me, needing to work the key and then also do whatever you want to do with the open hole itself was too cumbersome and artificial - two physical processes and a lot of manufacturing effort to achieve something that would be completely natural on a whistle, keyless flute, recorder, whatever. But then I have no aim to ever play trad on Boehm system - I truly admire those who can!
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
There seem to be a lot of weird ideas expressed on this thread. James thinks that all Boehm flutes are cylindrical, someone else thinks that there were no Boehm flutes before 1850,somebody else thinks that simple system flutes are all conical.
Another person thinks that Mozart heard an eight keyed flute.Yet another person thinks that the Amatis set a standard model which has been used ever after !
I am wondering if this thread is haunted by the ghost of Lewis Carroll as it reads like Alice in Wonderland
I have both wood and metal simple system open holed flutes which are cylindrical as well as 40- 50 Old and new English keyed and unkeyed flutes in all sorts of cofigurations, and violins which owe little to Amati !
andrewk
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
There are things you can do with simple system flutes that simply aren't possible with Boehms.
for example, slides. With a Boehm flute, very few notes slide, even when you have the holes in the middle of the keys. Obviously that's not so much a problem on simple system, as you can just slide your finger off of the hole.
Also, in the area of favorites, I love Yamaha Boehms. They just sound nice in the middle ranges.
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
"There are things you can do with simple system flutes that simply aren't possible with Boehms." - Yeah OK, but I bet you can't do this: http://www.monkeyheaven.com/monkeyclip3.wav
violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
there is an obvious distinction between fiddle and violin.
(same gear, different style)
now, someone who says s/he plays flute, does one automatically understand this as wooden or metal?
(different gear, same or different style)
what i mean is: "started playing flute at the age of 12", does this mean wooden or metal flute? shouldn't there be/isn't there a different word to distinguish both instruments? or different styles of music (traverso vs flute)? or different systems (simple system vs boehm system)? or the player h/er/imself (flautist vs flute player)?
en bref: what single word would you use to point out that you (or someone) play "wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition" ?
i wonder ...
mm
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by MM
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
dweedle
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by Shrog
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Why?
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by Ottery
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
I wouldn't, because it takes a minimum of two words to do the job, as it does in many languages to distinguish between the "recorder" and the transverse flute.
"Irish Flute" does the job nicely (although not all Irish flutes are actually wooden, just as not all fiddles are actually violins, but if you belong to that minority you're simply going to have to get used to explaining yourself in more detail).
KFG
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
In the spirit of those here who are addicted to acronyms such as ITM (Intra-Thoracic Measurements) STM (Superior Temporal Macropathology) and sh*tE music (Scottish-Hybridised Irish with Traditional English music)
might I propose the use of SWIFT for Simple Wooden Irish Flute (Transverse) and BUST flute for Boehm Universal System (Transverse) flute.
To seriously answer your question, I play both but am more comfortable with Boehm system, especially at sessions, but I believe it's the style it's played in.
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Just to expland - although there are some things you can't do on the Boehm system that you can on simple system, you get good volume with a Boehm job - I use a blackwood Boehm. But it's more to do with how it's played, ornamentation etc.
I suppose in that sense it paralells the fiddle/violin dichotomy.
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
". . .I use a blackwood Boehm."
Boehm's advised material, actually, at least for the average player.
". . .you get good volume with a Boehm job. . ."
And illustrative of the fact that there is more going on than the choice of material or the "system" in the sound Take the keys off of a Blackwood Boehm, plug up the appropriate holes, and you have a simple system flute with all the volume of a Boehm flute. Is a puzzlement.
Of course Peter Broderick won the all Ireland with a cylindrical metal simple system flute, I make and play them myself, you can get a genuine silver conical bore simple system piccolo, wooden "Irish simple system" flutes with conical bores and keys on 'em and cylindrical bore Irish simple system flutes with shaped headjoints, etc, etc, etc.
And then there are the French flutes to complicate matters even further and where do Quenas ( a "fippleless whistle" ) fit into the picture?
This catagorization business turns out to be damned trickey work.
"But it's more to do with how it's played, ornamentation etc."
Yes, I tend to agree with you, and there any number of Boehm players who sound perfectly Irish, and any number of simple "folk" flute players who don't even attempt to sound Irish, let alone succeed.
However, I will note:
". . .there are some things you can't do on the Boehm system that you can on simple system. . ."
How it's played and the style of ornamentation that is considered traditional derives directly from converting older style English keyed flutes into simple flutes.
Nothing is simple, not even "simple" flutes.
"I suppose in that sense it paralells the fiddle/violin dichotomy."
Ah, but what do we do with my fiddle that isn't a violin?
KFG
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Swift. I like that, Danny. Gonna use it interchangeably with 'stick', 'chopper' and 'jedi jigsaw'. Although it has been argued that 'Jigsaw' is more appropriate a term for a fiddle.
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by Q
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Don't be so stoopid!
There's no way I'm going to take the keys off and plug up holes in my rather expensive blackwood Boehm flute just to prove some half-baked notion. I've got enough on my plate to do before I start fannying about like that.
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Well, I'd be happy to sell you a rather expensive (although considerably less expensive than the original, since I wouldn't have to deal with the keywork at all in the first place) alternate barrel made up in simulation of the same, if that's what you'd prefer.
Or we could just skip the whole thing and agree that adding keys to a flute doesn't add volume to it, and thus removing them doesn't detract from it.
"Swift. I like that, Danny."
I'm rather fond of sh*tE myself. I often tell people my playing is sh*tE, but they don't always believe me. Now I can prove it.
Thanks for that one. It's inspired.
KFG
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
I use the terms "orchestral flute" and "Irish flute" to make the distinction. If more explanation is needed, I give it. Key clatter is the chief problem I find in using an orchestral flute for trad. However, they are great for airs and songs, especially in the lower register. Also nice for jamming with harpers.
Ah, harpers. Well there's another distinction problem. I am told that a harper plays trad and a harpist plays classical. Does that make it clear enough for you?
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by Ailin
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
hell, i wasn't arround for some hours and look what happens ...
but let's just stick to the two types most commonly known in this music: keyed or keyless conical (simple system) and boehm.
@ ottery: why? because!
@ KFG: ("irish flute" might work, only, mine is belgian, and i also play flemish/scandinavian/north-african/... music)
and what other instrument than a violin can you use to fiddle?
@ pingu: SWIFT has a ring to it, but i'm not really looking for an acronym, since to explain the acronym would take longer then to say 'simple system wooden ... ' and it is not only the style (hence fiddle/violin). your boehm-analogy might work, but i definitely see boehm as a different instrument (like clarinet vs soprano sax).
@ KFG again: you make my whole question seem ridiculous
i don't want to start a discussion about which of the dozains of pure and hybrid systems is preferably (each plays the one he prefers), there's enough of that on the woodenflutesite ...
nor am i looking for a new invented word, i am just wondering whether a name for the thing is existing ...
mm
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by MM
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Oooooooooh no! Don't get me going on harps, or ostrichfeathers and I are likely to highjack the thread into long, academic treatises arguing over whether or not people playing Irish fiddle dance music on nylon strung Welsh harps in the continental style are actually ITM harpers at all.
KFG
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Cross posted:
"KFG: ("irish flute" might work, only, mine is belgian, and i also play flemish/scandinavian/north-african/... music)"
Well, my Irish Flute is American. That's ok, my Irish whistle is English and my Irish fiddle (which is really Italian) is Chinese. My American 5 string banjo and steel string guitar are both Japanese. My Quena used to be a genuine Indian made one from the Andes, but that's gone missing and I've replaced with an American one.
I play Irish music on all of them, and I play non Irish music on all of them. That doesn't make the 5 string banjo any more "Irish" or the fiddle any less Italian.
"KFG again: you make my whole question seem ridiculous. . ."
It's not that your question is ridiculous, per se, it's just that there's not one good answer that will cover all the bases, as per PB's keyless cyclindrical copper flute with which he won the All Ireland competition. It's hard to claim that isn't an Irish flute, and yet it doesn't meet a single criteria for being an Irish flute.
". . let's just stick to the two types most commonly known in this music: keyed or keyless conical (simple system) and boehm."
But, as per my original post, if one does not wish to cover all the bases things get much easier, and we can leave those who play something out of what is considered the norm (like the Wavin Pipe crowd, although this past Sunday I started to explain to a young lady in a coffee house that my Bristol Pipe was an "Irish Flute" and she looked at me with disdain and said "I know that." So even simple system Wavin Pipes are readily identifiable as Irish Flutes by Americans in a non Irish trad setting) to make the lengthy explanations.
"i am just wondering whether a name for the thing is existing ..."
Yes. "Irish Flute", which is specifically a wooden, D, conical bore flute derived from the English, pre Boehm, C flute, which may, or may not have keys (and thus may or may not actually be a D flute as well) and is a)actually uniquely Irish, so the name identifies it uniquely, and b) modern ( the older ones actually being English flutes with the keys knocked off, or taped over, or just ignored, or whatever)
Google on "Irish flute" and you should find plenty of confirmation of the name, as well as its historical background.
Technically my Bristol Pipe and PB's copper one are *not* Irish flutes, but simply "folk" flutes that we happen to play Irish music on, like my quena.
". . .and what other instrument than a violin can you use to fiddle?"
Rebec, viol, viola, teardrop, Hardanger, kit, saw sam sai, many others, including a few of my own devising and, of course, that old Roman instrument from which the word "fiddle" derives. All of these are fiddles. All of them can be used to play Irish fiddle music on. None of them are violins (the viola is a member of the violin family, but is not a violin).The common dictionary definition of "fiddle" as a member of the violin family is actually wrong. The violin is a member of the fiddle family. Violin is specifically the Amati pattern ( he didn't invent it, but he created the set pattern that has been followed since) Baroque Italian soprano instrument, which is why the things still retain the silly tuning pegs even though we've invented gears since then. Technically most electric "violins" aren't, they're fiddles, just as technically my Bristol Pipe isn't an Irish flute, it's a "folk" flute (which is actually a catchall class of simple flutes which may or may not have traditional provenence, depending on context, but which excludes certain other, and sometimes identical, flutes for purely historical reasons).
They just happen to look a lot alike, play a lot alike and are interchangable with each other.
Things get all weird when you try to be technically precise, I'm afraid, because musical instruments really exist in classes mor e than they do as individuals, as per the difference between the violin and viola, barely distinguishable from each other, and yet each bearing a unique, technical (although arbitrary) definition.
KFG
# Posted on March 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Just o clarify something the Bohem Flute is louder because of a wider bore that is also why it has keys over the main 6 holes because they would be too big and too hard to reach and cover without the keys.
# Posted on March 3rd 2005 by Why Bother?
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
You got it, unseen 122. Nice to see a concise yet correct post. I (and some other people I know here) don't bother reading the long egocentric ones.
# Posted on March 3rd 2005 by Rudall the time
And just to complicate things...
On lots of older Irish recordings, the flute is listed as "concert flute", which I always assumed was code for "wooden". I was wrong though, as I've seen both timber and Boehm flutes called by that name.
KFG: I wouldn't call a Quena a "fippleless whistle", I'd call it an end-blown flute, which is how it's usually described in the Great Big Book of Thing Taxonomy. There's one thing UN-complicated. (-:
# Posted on March 3rd 2005 by Gzeg
And just to complicate things...
btw, I've given up trying to explain the difference in flutes to non-fluteplayers, as it's generally not worth the effort and cuts into my drinking time.
# Posted on March 3rd 2005 by Gzeg
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
I just don't bother reading those big ego-posts, even if I have a drink with me on the PC, they just cut into my...living time, I suppose.
# Posted on March 3rd 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Gzeg, I've only come across one person who uses the term concert flute, and he learned flute yonks ago on wooden Bb and Eb flutes in some kind of wind band where concert flute meant "concert pitch" flute, as in A fingering = A concert pitch, whether metal or wood. Maybe that's what they meant?
# Posted on March 3rd 2005 by Tish
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
The term "concert flute" refers to the 8-key wooden flute more popularly known as an Irish flute today. It is called an Irish flute simply because that is what it is almost exclusively used for now. However, originally, it was the concert flute of the orchestra. We've only had the Boehm flute since the 1850s. The flute Beethoven and Mozart wrote for was the 8-key flute we now use for ITM.
# Posted on March 4th 2005 by Ailin
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Just a note: removing the keys and plugging up most of them wouldn't turn a Boehm system flute into a simple system flute.
Simple system flutes have a cylincrical head and a conical body. Boehm flutes, no matter how keyed, have a cylindrical body and a tapered ("parabolic") head.
That conical bore, IMHO, has a lot to do with the characteristic sound of the simple system flute. Boehm flutes can sound quite good, but it is a different sound.
--James
# Posted on March 4th 2005 by beardflute
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Thanks James, I thought that, but wasn't sure, so I didn't post it! I agree it is a different sound, but not remotely so. I repeat it's what you do with it. For example, we had a guy playing a piano accordion at our session last night. But the way he played, the ornamentation, rhythm and feeling he put into it made it sound like a superbly-played button accordion. (Not that the PA isn't valid in its own right, though!)
# Posted on March 4th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Danny, is your boehm one of them what has the holes in the middle of the keys? Always fancied playing one of those.
# Posted on March 4th 2005 by Q
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Nah, Matt, just a "normal" Boehm, but made of blackwood. I have tried one of those and found it bliddy impossible! ...and found it didn't confer much advantage anyway...more trouble than they're worth (in MY view.)
# Posted on March 4th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Has anybody tried a blackwood Radcliffe model flute a la Paddy Carty? I really fancy trying one of them.
Hmm - where does that leave your boehm vs simple system dichotomy?
# Posted on March 4th 2005 by Biddy
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
My ex played a French-model Boehm with holes in the keys and a low B foot. It was a Pearl, which is supposed to be one of the best, but I warn't impressed.
A tip to anyone considering buying a Boehm: I've owned a solid-silver Armstrong (most silver flutes are either silver plated or have only a solid silver head joint) for many years. It could do with an overhaul, but there are not as many qualified flute repair people as there used to be. A friend of mine got his hands on one of those dirt cheap Bestler flutes that you can get from some sources for under a hundred dollars. It is a no-frills model. Plastic case, nickel body, etc. However, it plays like a dream and has a very rich sound. I guess flutes are easier and cheaper to make with precision than they used to be. I bought it off him for 50 bucks, and it is now my workhorse flute when I'm not using my wooden Casey Burns (best wooden flute I've ever played). The moral is, you don't have to pay top dollar to get a good instrument. Be careful, but don't be afraid to check out the cheaper models.
# Posted on March 4th 2005 by Ailin
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Biddy - we had a good discussion about this a couple of years ago - and much was said about Paddy Carty's flute, a lot of informative stuff came out (including me wrongly claiming that the Radcliff was a Boehm!), so maybe, out of interest, you'd want to look at it:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1558
# Posted on March 4th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Great thread - very informative, thanks!
# Posted on March 5th 2005 by Biddy
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Matt Malloy was in town tonite, Mercy he is good
# Posted on March 7th 2005 by bt
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
Q, FWIW, my "typewriter" has holes in the pads. I got 'em plugged, to be honest. I can see why people want 'em but to me, needing to work the key and then also do whatever you want to do with the open hole itself was too cumbersome and artificial - two physical processes and a lot of manufacturing effort to achieve something that would be completely natural on a whistle, keyless flute, recorder, whatever. But then I have no aim to ever play trad on Boehm system - I truly admire those who can!
# Posted on March 7th 2005 by Tish
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
There seem to be a lot of weird ideas expressed on this thread. James thinks that all Boehm flutes are cylindrical, someone else thinks that there were no Boehm flutes before 1850,somebody else thinks that simple system flutes are all conical.
Another person thinks that Mozart heard an eight keyed flute.Yet another person thinks that the Amatis set a standard model which has been used ever after !
I am wondering if this thread is haunted by the ghost of Lewis Carroll as it reads like Alice in Wonderland
I have both wood and metal simple system open holed flutes which are cylindrical as well as 40- 50 Old and new English keyed and unkeyed flutes in all sorts of cofigurations, and violins which owe little to Amati !
andrewk
# Posted on April 2nd 2005 by andrewk
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
There are things you can do with simple system flutes that simply aren't possible with Boehms.
for example, slides. With a Boehm flute, very few notes slide, even when you have the holes in the middle of the keys. Obviously that's not so much a problem on simple system, as you can just slide your finger off of the hole.
Also, in the area of favorites, I love Yamaha Boehms. They just sound nice in the middle ranges.
# Posted on March 12th 2006 by Kriana
Re: violin vs fiddle <> boehm flute vs wooden simple system flute in the irish tradition?
"There are things you can do with simple system flutes that simply aren't possible with Boehms." - Yeah OK, but I bet you can't do this:
http://www.monkeyheaven.com/monkeyclip3.wav
# Posted on March 12th 2006 by Ptarmigan