You are sitting at your session when a non-aggressive looking stranger comes in, starts chatting, and asks if it is OK if he joins in, his instruments are out in the car. Everyone says "certainly, no problem".
Out he goes, reappears two minutes later, sits down, and takes a couple of spoons out of his pocket.
In all seriousness though, I'd probably ask the guy if he was being serious about his choice of *instrument*. I doubt I could tell him to leave, since I'd have been the one saying "certainly, no problem". Id let him have a few tunes, and then maybe suggest (if it wasnt working in the session) he rethought about joining in.
This happened to us just a few weeks back. The spoons player is a local drummer who plays in several rock and jazz bands. He asked before pulling out his spoons, and he took readily to the hints soon proffered that he was playing too loud and to please not play on every set. But it wasn't long before someone threatened to shove the eating utensils where only an x-ray technician could find them. He's since been back only once, and then only to listen.
I don't mind spoons or bones when they're hauled out for one set during the course of a night. That's a whimsy, a fanicful diversion. But not every week, please. And when they go on for more than one set, they immediately lose any pretense of charm.
Even well played, spoons and bones are unnecessary at best.
The spoons I don't mind so much, as long as it's not all night long as Will said. I once played a ceili where an older gentlemen came in with his fiddle, and his saxophone. He played a waltz on the sax, and neither me or my sister had the heart to say anything to him about it. But I had no problem voicing my opinion after he played "The Sally Gardens" (yes, the reel) on the sax. That was the last I saw of it...gotta draw the line somewhere.
I'd tell him: Thanks, I've already eaten, I think you can still order soup at the bar. If not -- there's a greasy spoon a couple of blocks down I believe."
About the sax player: If someone came in and played a reel on a sax -- I'd enjoy that. There's actually a tradition of sax playing ITM in dance bands. Also, a band from Sligo called, "At the Racket" released some great music on a couple of CDs not that long ago.
Actual quote from someone at the session to a friend of mine: "I'm an All-Scotland fiddle champion, and an All-Ireland pipe champion, but right now I'm concentrating on the spoons."
He's a local pathalogical liar who hangs around the fringes of the scene and talks BS with newbies. He said this to a friend of mine who had just showed up for the first time.
Id let him join, sessions are about having fun, if someone wants to have fun and join in, even if its odd then who cares, I must say I love traditional music, but Im not a traditionalist, why be rude to someone who honestly might just want to join in the festivities and fun? Sessions aren;t orchestras with pre-arranged seats. In my opinion people should be aloud to come and go as they please. Im a fiddle player, and I go to sessions occasionally, I would be deeply hurt if someone "took that away from me"
Anna, think about this for a minute. How would you feel if you spent hours upon hours learning the tunes then took your fiddle to a cozy little session but literally could not hear yourself play because someone who's never learned anything about Irish trad music showed up with a full drum kit--snare, tom tom, bass, and cymbals--and proceed to thrash them like he was center stage at a Metallica concert?
Or it's just you on fiddle, a friend on flute, and another on concertina, sitting in a small room with low ceilings...and then in walk three big dudes with Highland pipes. Remember, these things are loud--they were designed to scare the stuffing out of the enemy before you even reached the battlefield.
There have to be limits or one person's idea of fun and joining in can ruin it for everyone else.
Sure, one set of spoons won't drown out the session, but they can give you a wicked headache in less than 10 minutes. And if they're played without regard to time signature or basic rhythm (as they too often are), they can disrupt even the best player's ability to get through a tune. Where's the fun in that?
Fluter Josie McDermott was a great sax player too and by all accounts made it sing on jigs and reels. It's not necessarily the instrument (well, it *is* the instrument if it's just too loud to hear anything else over it), but how it's played.
Dean24 writes: "With any luck his spoon playing would'nt be as boring as your thread."
I can see by your profile that you consider yourself to be a "punk musician" and you list punk musicians as your influence. There's no mention of ITM, but you add at the end, "This site is very good though and is helping me to learn and become a better musician."
So is insulting people on this site how you're going to " learn and become a better musician."?
I agree with anna. I'd let him join in...sessions are about having fun and joining in...etc....but I'd make sure all spooners on the planet would end up where they're welcome...at anna's session, not mine.
If he is a loathesome oaf who plays with no feel and smells bad too and buys no beers. I would have no trouble asking him to cease playing.
In a nice way, of course.
We have a local eccentric who is quite capable and intellegent,,unless he is off his meds (I assume lithium) Then he is just manic and nuts, he plays and dances at the same time, has very little in the way of repertoire talks a blue streak...smells bad and BUYS NO BEERS.
I don't care who you are or where you live .....MY local coocoo is worse than yours.
You all should seriously consider never complaining.
Spoons are great. Maybe once a night. More than that it's like rattled car keys. Or pound coins on the sides of glasses. Or fingernails on bashed up Coke tins. Or ashtrays banged on tables.
Great ways for someone who can't play to key into the session, but not all effing night.....
will
I supposse it would be a bother if that was the case and a full set of drums just randomly showed up, however that seems unlikely. I also find that when most people become interested in something they want to blend in with whatever it is that caught their attention, I mean look at this website? Aren't we all just trying to become a little better so that we can "fit in" to the irish scene just a little more, by being a little more knowledgable etc . At sessions there will always be people who are a bother, not just on a musical instrument , but because of there personalities as well. I just think we need to be tolerant and accpeting to people who spark an interest in ITM, even if their odd.
"Highland pipes. . .these things are loud--they were designed to scare the stuffing out of the enemy before you even reached the battlefield."
I believe Montcalm once issued the order, when his troops complained that they couldn't see the British for all the trees, to just "shoot toward the bloody noise."
Or however that comes out in French.
"I supposse it would be a bother if that was the case and a full set of drums just randomly showed up, however that seems unlikely."
Unlikely at an ITM session, but I once had a live recording session completely ruined in just this manner, and it was music that that needed drumming. . .of the right kind. Parrothead stuff. He asked if he could participate, promised he would only play the bongos and congas, then as soon as we started playing moved to the trap set (which was already there and set up for someone else) and let all hell break loose.
It was not only annoying, but expensive, and since some of the musicians were from out of town and on a tight touring schedule we've never been able to get everybody together again to take another crack at it.
There is such a thing as appropriate musicianship. . .and its converse.
Of course in his case he actually lied about what he was up to, which the spoon player in question didn't. Maybe it should have been suggested tha instead of playing spoons he should just go fork himself. My drummer friend, Mr. Kavanaugh, once played an entire gig with butter knives when he left his sticks at home (he's a bit of a flake. He'll spend half an hour just making sure the stove is turned off, and then forget his kit). He got through the night, but everyone agreed the tone was a bit cutting.
". . .was that an insult from Dean 24? I just thought it was a teenager."
Yeah, insulting teenager is a bit redundant. There are exceptions of course. Witness the current behavior of our own long, tall and yellow.
It's interesting how tolerant we are of this sort of thing when we first get into playing ITM. We'll defend the spoon player, or whatever, who wants to join in because they're swept up in the joie de vivre of the music, and we’re very idealistic about our point of view regarding the whole thing. Then as time marches on and you’ve had umpteen wonderful nights ruined by clueless wannabe Irish-ish music players coming in and spilling their enthusiasm all over everyone's fun – and you become cynical. Next thing you know you’re commiserating about it on a message board with others who have gone through similar situations, and then someone relatively fresh and new to the whole scene starts pontificating idealistically about how we should allow the inspired newcomer into the session because it’s music after all and we should all be free and go with the flow of the spirit of the thing… and share the joy.
I don’t know, maybe I’m too old to play in sessions now.
My wife ( God bless her !) comes to the session with flute, whistle, wasboard ( at the request of the organiser ), jews harp, and......spoons.
If she knows the tune, obviously, she plays flute or whistle. If not, she has a choice of four options; the three "minor" instruments or a bathroom break. Or she can just sit this one out. The organiser likes the washboard - you wouldn't believe he's a lawyer by trade - but none of these three instruments gets played more than a couple of times an evening. On the other hand my bohdran gets passed around like the village bicycle........
KFG's "I believe Montcalm once issued the order, when his troops complained that they couldn't see the British for all the trees, to just "shoot toward the bloody noise" is definitely food for thought. Spoons players, drummers, dustbin lid bashers, and other percussionists of a dubious nature beware - you've been warned!
Sorry David. I was just feeling grumpy(!) And we do have a spoon player at an occasional session I go to. He literally gives me a headache. He plays along with virtually anything, which has the effect of 'straightening out' all the tunes, so everything sounds the same. And we can't get rid of him, because all the punters (bless their cotton socks) think he’s wonderful, and a great addition to the music(!)
Hopefully, your session group has a position on spoons. You can ask for everyone's feedback. Having a session coordinator take over this role helps. Having people join the session my invitation of a member (mentioned in another thread plus what lengths you can go to in getting an invitation) helps.
Ever see Tommy Hayes play spoons? He's incredible. I have also taught spoons and bones to children, which has been a lot of fun. However, I play other instruments and understand the issue of trying to enjoy carefully practiced songs with friends while under metallic noise attack. A cajun washboard is worse. The Lark in the Morning catalog has a metallic washboard tie listed, in case anyone has a bad tie contest going on.
So, some people would give him/her a chance, and others wouldn't care if this was the "Django Reinhardt" of spoons, he/she wouldn't be tolerated.
For me, I would listen and see how the person played, like any instrument, and take it from there. I must confess however to once hiding someone's spoons, a heinous crime, but he couldn't play them and couldn't be told.
I couldn't listen to spoons on every tune, but they do have their moments. Let's face it, I was audacious or cheeky enough to play in Molloy's last QAugust, and all I had was a block of wood, like those blocks of wood you see on washboards or ceilidh drums. I played this like a bodhran, but not on too many tunes. Mind you I am the best lump of wood player I have ever seen, due to the fact that my son is the only other one,and he doesn't practice. Too busy playing electric guitar lead on "The Bucks of Oranmore". There's tradition for you.
As for wreckin rea, I might turn up to Maddens some night,with a set of spoons, just to see if you really do cry.
I've seen the drum kit in a session. It's not "fun." At all. For anyone but the drummer. I think there's a moral in there somewhere.
Anna, imagine you and your lacrosse friends get together every Saturday afternoon to play. You'e all experienced players, in good shape, and skilled with the stick. The games are fun--good passing, amazing goal keeping, real team work on each side. Every bit as energetic, challenging, and exciting as a formal game between your school and the next, but played just for fun (not for district standing).
But one day a girl shows up wearing flip flops and carrying a golf club, a big driver. No protective gear at all. She doesn't ask if she can play with you--just inserts herself during the pregame huddle and then runs out on the field, wielding her golf club. You want to encourage her enthusiasm for her new-found sport, so you let her play. Of course, the golf club means she can't pass or receive passes too well, and it's dangerous to get within arm's reach of her, but that's okay because the flip flops slow her down.
Next week, you're looking forward to Saturday's game, but Golf Girl has brought four of her friends, each equipped as she is. Well almost. Now you've got another driver, a putter, and two sand wedges. Of course, they're all thrilled to be there, nearly jumping out of their flip flops, and chattering amongst themselves like a flock of ostriches. So you invite them to play. Except the one with the putter takes position as goal keeper for your team. In five minutes, you're behind 20 to 0, but things are looking up because the ball caught her smack in the mouth and one of the real lacrosse players is driving her to the emergency room right now. But another golfer jumps into the goal position. By now you're finding that the passing game is gone, people keep running into the slow-moving flip flopping girls, and you've lost two good players to golf club impacts.
Still having fun? As much fun as you were before the golf girls showed up?
That's what it's like when people with little to no appreciable skills or experience descend on a session, wielding spoons, electric guitars, river rocks (for "percussion"), upright basses, steel drums, etc. (I've seen all of these at sessions.)
It turns out there are different kinds of fun.
The kind of fun I get out of a good session does include welcoming new people, even players who are just getting into the music. But only if they don detract too much from the kind of fun to be had from playing strings of tunes at a danceable tempo, in unison with other musicians, in tune, together on the beat, no one drowning out other players, listening to the variations and nuances that come of years of playing this stuff with attention to the details.
Mind you, this isn't some elitist manifesto. I'm the facilitator for my local sesh. We lean toward the more open, welcoming end of the spectrum as Irish sessions go. We've got a hammered dulcimer player (sometimes two), multiple bodhrans, sometimes multiple guitars, sometimes electric keyboard, the occasional Pogues song, even a bones or spoons player. We routinely help people come into Irish music from other genres--classical, bluegrass, old timey, etc.
But one of the things we teach is that an Irish session is different from a jam session. To join in, you have to learn the tunes. If your instrument distracts more than it contributes, we suggest learning a more appropriate instrument. If you want to just make musical sounds without regard to the nuances of the tunes, we point you toward the jam session down the street. That way, you can go have your fun, and we can have ours. Everybody wins.
Protective gear in Lacrosse? That's just . . .wrong. Like steel drums at an Irish session. But then I think they ruined the game when they traded in the rock for a rubber ball (even if it is *nearly* as hard as a rock) and if there isn't a fatality or three it must not have been a very good game, so don't mind me.
Other than that I would like to offer your post the sincerest flatery I I know. . .I wish I'd written it.
I see your point will, but I think what sessions need are a balance like you can't be exclusive and arrogant about them only allowing "experts" but I guess you have to find a polite way to include or exclude beginners as well. You dont want to hurt peoples feelings either, sessions are not paid gigs were you can fire people if their not up to standard.
But Anna, in your definition of "sessions" -- are they open to everyone regardless of what effect they have on it, or should it be torerated because they're beginners?
Hey, Anna. Well, it depends on the session, is my view. At some sessions, it'd be just fine and dandy and all comers welcome. At others, the spoons player would just be asking for a good natured ribbing that got less good natured as they went along. i don't believe we have any in Colorado that would actively eject someone turning up with a set of spoons, but i could see it happening if certain conditions were in force.
If a session is the sort of "all hale and well met", then fine. If not, then fine. It's all up to the session participants.
Personally, I find that spoons are fun for a set, and it goes rapidly downhill from there.
If sessions allowed only experts we'd all be playing at home (or twiddling our thumbs here), eh?
In my experience, it's not so much balance that's needed as a sense of discretion--from everyone in the circle. By that I mean it makes for a good session when the better players are willing to enjoy a set at half speed just to include a beginner who's trembling with nerves at the thought of trotting out the two tune he's knows. And they all forgive the inevitable stumbles and clap him on the back when they're done, egging him on so he'll float home 3 feet off the ground and come back next week with two more tunes under his belt. And I also mean discretion from the beginners, so they'll sit out tunes they don't know, and play quietly on tunes they're unsure of, and they won't bad mouth the session because the rest of the players can kick it into a higher gear and play tunes that aren't in "101 Common Session Tunes." And discretion from the spoons players, who afterall aren't contributing to the melody at all, and who's rhythmic help really isn't necessary (the melody players can handle that part, too), so they realize they don't need to rattle along on every set.
Many, many Irish sessions are very welcoming, and a set or two with spoons accompanying, or a rendition of the Belfast Hornpipe on paper and comb, or a performance of catching stacks of quarters off your elbow can all be part of the fun.
But at most of the sessions I've been to, the fun hinges on making good music from the usual trad instruments, playing predominantly from the body of trad tunes. So you *do* find ways to encourage beginners and wannabes to go home and woodshed before expecting to sit in. At my sesh, we do a monthly slow session to help newcomers learn the tunes. And a quarterly whistle workshop to help people learn those instruments. And a weekly email list to keep people informed of Irish music concerts they can go to, workshops and camps they can attend, etc. We also use our session tip jar money to buy instruments for a lending library so people can learn to play even if they can't afford an instrument right away. And I've compiled a three volume set of tune books for our session.
I'm not sure how we could be any more welcoming and open *to people who are interested in playing Irish trad music.*
Sure, the odd detour now and then at a session can be fun, but if we wanted to spend the evening playing cajun two steps and Sousa marches with non-musicians wailing away on river rocks and eating utensils, with 6 guitars playing 3 different rhythms and 6 individual chord progressions, we wouldn't have bothered to go to the trouble of setting up an Irish session, would we?
"We also use our session tip jar money to buy instruments for a lending library so people can learn to play even if they can't afford an instrument right away."
Ah! Now that is a bloody fantastic stroke of genius. I just might have to go to a couple of the local libraries and see if they're into the idea. . .have you thought of contacting manufacturers for wholesale prices? I'd bet they'd consider it cheap (i.e., at a profit) advertising for their products to be the first people use. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the request to pay results in the odd (tax deductable) donation as well.
Heh, well it was my (non-sessioning) wife's idea, but don't tell her she's a genius--I've worked hard all these years to convince her I'm not as stoopid as I seem, and that might just give her the wrong idea.
Actually, the way our lending library works is we buy (or take donations of) used instruments and I keep them at my house. Most of the instruments have come from our session members. When someone (in a 100 mile radius of Helena Montana) wants to borrow one, they sign it out. No money changes hands, and there's no time limit unless other people are waiting for the same instrument. So far, we've never had a problem with an instrument walking away. But not that many instruments are out at any one time, and so far, most of the borrowers are people in our immediate session circle.
To date, we have the following instruments:
Practice set of Patrick Murray uilleann pipes (with book, cd, and video tutorials)
Five fiddles with bows and cases
Assorted whistles, including one low D whistle
One keyless Delrin flute
One bodhran
I'd like to get a decent Anglo concertina next.
All of our instruments play well, in tune, and are relatively low maintenance. It amazes me that we've collected all these items for less than $550 USD.
Before youse go any further, there *are* sessions where only "experts" are allowed to play...occasionally seen in London, where I wouldn't dare sit in, but more likely seen in maybe Dublin, or the high-end sessions seen at the All-Ireland Feadh or the Willie Clancy week (not that I've been to the latter but possess a Tape of one such gathering.)
But I've also witnessed a session totally dominated by a mad spoons player/comedian, at the 1998(?) Enniscorthy Fleadh who had the whole of the pub splitting their sides at his capers. He'd "order" the musicians at the session to play a rake of tunes to which would "perform" on the spoons...thereupon the cutlery was seen to be clacked under arms, through legs, on the head and so on...then with a sweep, the musos were ordered to shtumm....silence... so he tells some chronic old joke, but with such panache and overbearing presence, that no-one in the pub could help but laugh along this larger than life character. And the musicians at that session seemed happy enough to go along with it.....maybe it'd get a bit wearing after a while, though.
But he was hardly a spoons player per se. Just a character who found the spoons a vehicle for entry into a session for him to do his thing. And a good thing it was.
We've got a fiddler who livens things up in a similar vein by singing the odd song in Lebanese or Slovakian on occasion. Just to remind us all to not take anything too seriously. And I don't juggle at our sessions very often, but it does happen now and then....
The trick to sessioning with the experts is to catch them when no one else is around to session with. It's easy here in the boondocks when some brilliant player passes through--no one else but us mudpuppies to sit in with. *grin*
I have come along a bit late as usual to this thread but hasn't anyone mentioned the great Spoons Murder song. I haven't checked the archives but the melody was posted (under another name) and I think the words got posted in a discussion.
If a member of the session could just learn the song then it could be called into play as a subtle broadside for any offending spoons players.
what would you do if....
what would you do if....
You are sitting at your session when a non-aggressive looking stranger comes in, starts chatting, and asks if it is OK if he joins in, his instruments are out in the car. Everyone says "certainly, no problem".
Out he goes, reappears two minutes later, sits down, and takes a couple of spoons out of his pocket.
Now think about it, and try and answer honestly.
What would YOU do?
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: what would you do if....
say "well thank god its not a bodhran!".....
In all seriousness though, I'd probably ask the guy if he was being serious about his choice of *instrument*. I doubt I could tell him to leave, since I'd have been the one saying "certainly, no problem". Id let him have a few tunes, and then maybe suggest (if it wasnt working in the session) he rethought about joining in.
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by aaron b
Re: what would you do if....
This happened to us just a few weeks back. The spoons player is a local drummer who plays in several rock and jazz bands. He asked before pulling out his spoons, and he took readily to the hints soon proffered that he was playing too loud and to please not play on every set. But it wasn't long before someone threatened to shove the eating utensils where only an x-ray technician could find them. He's since been back only once, and then only to listen.
I don't mind spoons or bones when they're hauled out for one set during the course of a night. That's a whimsy, a fanicful diversion. But not every week, please. And when they go on for more than one set, they immediately lose any pretense of charm.
Even well played, spoons and bones are unnecessary at best.
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: what would you do if....
The spoons I don't mind so much, as long as it's not all night long as Will said. I once played a ceili where an older gentlemen came in with his fiddle, and his saxophone. He played a waltz on the sax, and neither me or my sister had the heart to say anything to him about it. But I had no problem voicing my opinion after he played "The Sally Gardens" (yes, the reel) on the sax. That was the last I saw of it...gotta draw the line somewhere.
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by irishfiddler32
Re: what would you do if....
Laugh
Mary
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by Antikhntr
Re: what would you do if....
I'd tell him: Thanks, I've already eaten, I think you can still order soup at the bar. If not -- there's a greasy spoon a couple of blocks down I believe."
About the sax player: If someone came in and played a reel on a sax -- I'd enjoy that. There's actually a tradition of sax playing ITM in dance bands. Also, a band from Sligo called, "At the Racket" released some great music on a couple of CDs not that long ago.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: what would you do if....
I say have your instrument before you ask. The last Session I was at there was a Spoons player and guess what they only played on one or two sets.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Why Bother?
Re: what would you do if....
Actual quote from someone at the session to a friend of mine: "I'm an All-Scotland fiddle champion, and an All-Ireland pipe champion, but right now I'm concentrating on the spoons."
He's a local pathalogical liar who hangs around the fringes of the scene and talks BS with newbies. He said this to a friend of mine who had just showed up for the first time.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: what would you do if....
I'd let him play on every set, every week.
But first I'd relocate the session and not tell him where the new location is.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Tunes!
Re: what would you do if....
I'd request that he play them on the bodhran player's skull. That would be a resounding success.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Jode
Re: what would you do if....
I'm sure I once saw Tommy Hayes play the spoons on his own head.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by grego
Re: what would you do if....
Now THAT is quality entertainment. Actually, if Tommy played spoons on our bodhranist's head she might end up with better rhythm!!!!
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Jode
Re: what would you do if....
Ask him to go get his shaky egg and lock the door while he was gone.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by sara g
Re: what would you do if....
Id let him join, sessions are about having fun, if someone wants to have fun and join in, even if its odd then who cares, I must say I love traditional music, but Im not a traditionalist, why be rude to someone who honestly might just want to join in the festivities and fun? Sessions aren;t orchestras with pre-arranged seats. In my opinion people should be aloud to come and go as they please. Im a fiddle player, and I go to sessions occasionally, I would be deeply hurt if someone "took that away from me"
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by banana512
Re: what would you do if....
With any luck his spoon playing would'nt be as boring as your thread.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by dean24
Re: what would you do if....
Anna, think about this for a minute. How would you feel if you spent hours upon hours learning the tunes then took your fiddle to a cozy little session but literally could not hear yourself play because someone who's never learned anything about Irish trad music showed up with a full drum kit--snare, tom tom, bass, and cymbals--and proceed to thrash them like he was center stage at a Metallica concert?
Or it's just you on fiddle, a friend on flute, and another on concertina, sitting in a small room with low ceilings...and then in walk three big dudes with Highland pipes. Remember, these things are loud--they were designed to scare the stuffing out of the enemy before you even reached the battlefield.
There have to be limits or one person's idea of fun and joining in can ruin it for everyone else.
Sure, one set of spoons won't drown out the session, but they can give you a wicked headache in less than 10 minutes. And if they're played without regard to time signature or basic rhythm (as they too often are), they can disrupt even the best player's ability to get through a tune. Where's the fun in that?
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Reel Good Sax
Fluter Josie McDermott was a great sax player too and by all accounts made it sing on jigs and reels. It's not necessarily the instrument (well, it *is* the instrument if it's just too loud to hear anything else over it), but how it's played.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: what would you do if....
cry.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: what would you do if....
Dean24 writes: "With any luck his spoon playing would'nt be as boring as your thread."
I can see by your profile that you consider yourself to be a "punk musician" and you list punk musicians as your influence. There's no mention of ITM, but you add at the end, "This site is very good though and is helping me to learn and become a better musician."
So is insulting people on this site how you're going to " learn and become a better musician."?
Just curious.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: what would you do if....
I agree with anna. I'd let him join in...sessions are about having fun and joining in...etc....but I'd make sure all spooners on the planet would end up where they're welcome...at anna's session, not mine.
where'd you say your session was again?
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: what would you do if....
Jeepers, I would let him play some, Crimenantly.
Maybe he's ok.
If he is a loathesome oaf who plays with no feel and smells bad too and buys no beers. I would have no trouble asking him to cease playing.
In a nice way, of course.
We have a local eccentric who is quite capable and intellegent,,unless he is off his meds (I assume lithium) Then he is just manic and nuts, he plays and dances at the same time, has very little in the way of repertoire talks a blue streak...smells bad and BUYS NO BEERS.
I don't care who you are or where you live .....MY local coocoo is worse than yours.
You all should seriously consider never complaining.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by bt
Re: what would you do if....
Spoons are great. Maybe once a night. More than that it's like rattled car keys. Or pound coins on the sides of glasses. Or fingernails on bashed up Coke tins. Or ashtrays banged on tables.
Great ways for someone who can't play to key into the session, but not all effing night.....
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Ottery
Re: what would you do if....
i wouild die laughing
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Pete D
Re: what would you do if....
will
I supposse it would be a bother if that was the case and a full set of drums just randomly showed up, however that seems unlikely. I also find that when most people become interested in something they want to blend in with whatever it is that caught their attention, I mean look at this website? Aren't we all just trying to become a little better so that we can "fit in" to the irish scene just a little more, by being a little more knowledgable etc . At sessions there will always be people who are a bother, not just on a musical instrument , but because of there personalities as well. I just think we need to be tolerant and accpeting to people who spark an interest in ITM, even if their odd.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by banana512
Re: what would you do if....
Gosh, was that an insult from Dean 24? I just thought it was a teenager.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: what would you do if....
Well said banana512. I would add that your last sentence applies more broadly than just to ITM. You are very wise.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: what would you do if....
"Highland pipes. . .these things are loud--they were designed to scare the stuffing out of the enemy before you even reached the battlefield."
I believe Montcalm once issued the order, when his troops complained that they couldn't see the British for all the trees, to just "shoot toward the bloody noise."
Or however that comes out in French.
"I supposse it would be a bother if that was the case and a full set of drums just randomly showed up, however that seems unlikely."
Unlikely at an ITM session, but I once had a live recording session completely ruined in just this manner, and it was music that that needed drumming. . .of the right kind. Parrothead stuff. He asked if he could participate, promised he would only play the bongos and congas, then as soon as we started playing moved to the trap set (which was already there and set up for someone else) and let all hell break loose.
It was not only annoying, but expensive, and since some of the musicians were from out of town and on a tight touring schedule we've never been able to get everybody together again to take another crack at it.
There is such a thing as appropriate musicianship. . .and its converse.
Of course in his case he actually lied about what he was up to, which the spoon player in question didn't. Maybe it should have been suggested tha instead of playing spoons he should just go fork himself. My drummer friend, Mr. Kavanaugh, once played an entire gig with butter knives when he left his sticks at home (he's a bit of a flake. He'll spend half an hour just making sure the stove is turned off, and then forget his kit). He got through the night, but everyone agreed the tone was a bit cutting.
". . .was that an insult from Dean 24? I just thought it was a teenager."
Yeah, insulting teenager is a bit redundant. There are exceptions of course. Witness the current behavior of our own long, tall and yellow.
KFG
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by KFG
Re: what would you do if....
It's interesting how tolerant we are of this sort of thing when we first get into playing ITM. We'll defend the spoon player, or whatever, who wants to join in because they're swept up in the joie de vivre of the music, and we’re very idealistic about our point of view regarding the whole thing. Then as time marches on and you’ve had umpteen wonderful nights ruined by clueless wannabe Irish-ish music players coming in and spilling their enthusiasm all over everyone's fun – and you become cynical. Next thing you know you’re commiserating about it on a message board with others who have gone through similar situations, and then someone relatively fresh and new to the whole scene starts pontificating idealistically about how we should allow the inspired newcomer into the session because it’s music after all and we should all be free and go with the flow of the spirit of the thing… and share the joy.
I don’t know, maybe I’m too old to play in sessions now.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: what would you do if....
Tell him you have a gun in the car & you will be back in 2 mins.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by eurbanjo
Re: what would you do if....
My wife ( God bless her !) comes to the session with flute, whistle, wasboard ( at the request of the organiser ), jews harp, and......spoons.
If she knows the tune, obviously, she plays flute or whistle. If not, she has a choice of four options; the three "minor" instruments or a bathroom break. Or she can just sit this one out. The organiser likes the washboard - you wouldn't believe he's a lawyer by trade - but none of these three instruments gets played more than a couple of times an evening. On the other hand my bohdran gets passed around like the village bicycle........
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: what would you do if....
What would I HONESTLY do?
Just sit with a grumpy face, most likely. Then again, it would depend how good he was, as to how grumpy my face would look....
Then I suppose the session would end up packing up early. But maybe I would just say something...
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: what would you do if....
KFG's "I believe Montcalm once issued the order, when his troops complained that they couldn't see the British for all the trees, to just "shoot toward the bloody noise" is definitely food for thought. Spoons players, drummers, dustbin lid bashers, and other percussionists of a dubious nature beware - you've been warned!
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Bannerman
Re: what would you do if....
Sorry David. I was just feeling grumpy(!) And we do have a spoon player at an occasional session I go to. He literally gives me a headache. He plays along with virtually anything, which has the effect of 'straightening out' all the tunes, so everything sounds the same. And we can't get rid of him, because all the punters (bless their cotton socks) think he’s wonderful, and a great addition to the music(!)
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Ottery
Re: what would you do if....
Ottery, can't you arrange for some soup and sandwiches at your session and make sure he has second helpings!
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Bannerman
Re: what would you do if....
I wish
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Ottery
Re: what would you do if....
Hopefully, your session group has a position on spoons. You can ask for everyone's feedback. Having a session coordinator take over this role helps. Having people join the session my invitation of a member (mentioned in another thread plus what lengths you can go to in getting an invitation) helps.
Ever see Tommy Hayes play spoons? He's incredible. I have also taught spoons and bones to children, which has been a lot of fun. However, I play other instruments and understand the issue of trying to enjoy carefully practiced songs with friends while under metallic noise attack. A cajun washboard is worse. The Lark in the Morning catalog has a metallic washboard tie listed, in case anyone has a bad tie contest going on.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: what would you do if....
So, some people would give him/her a chance, and others wouldn't care if this was the "Django Reinhardt" of spoons, he/she wouldn't be tolerated.
For me, I would listen and see how the person played, like any instrument, and take it from there. I must confess however to once hiding someone's spoons, a heinous crime, but he couldn't play them and couldn't be told.
I couldn't listen to spoons on every tune, but they do have their moments. Let's face it, I was audacious or cheeky enough to play in Molloy's last QAugust, and all I had was a block of wood, like those blocks of wood you see on washboards or ceilidh drums. I played this like a bodhran, but not on too many tunes. Mind you I am the best lump of wood player I have ever seen, due to the fact that my son is the only other one,and he doesn't practice. Too busy playing electric guitar lead on "The Bucks of Oranmore". There's tradition for you.
As for wreckin rea, I might turn up to Maddens some night,with a set of spoons, just to see if you really do cry.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: what would you do if....
I've seen the drum kit in a session. It's not "fun." At all. For anyone but the drummer. I think there's a moral in there somewhere.
Anna, imagine you and your lacrosse friends get together every Saturday afternoon to play. You'e all experienced players, in good shape, and skilled with the stick. The games are fun--good passing, amazing goal keeping, real team work on each side. Every bit as energetic, challenging, and exciting as a formal game between your school and the next, but played just for fun (not for district standing).
But one day a girl shows up wearing flip flops and carrying a golf club, a big driver. No protective gear at all. She doesn't ask if she can play with you--just inserts herself during the pregame huddle and then runs out on the field, wielding her golf club. You want to encourage her enthusiasm for her new-found sport, so you let her play. Of course, the golf club means she can't pass or receive passes too well, and it's dangerous to get within arm's reach of her, but that's okay because the flip flops slow her down.
Next week, you're looking forward to Saturday's game, but Golf Girl has brought four of her friends, each equipped as she is. Well almost. Now you've got another driver, a putter, and two sand wedges. Of course, they're all thrilled to be there, nearly jumping out of their flip flops, and chattering amongst themselves like a flock of ostriches. So you invite them to play. Except the one with the putter takes position as goal keeper for your team. In five minutes, you're behind 20 to 0, but things are looking up because the ball caught her smack in the mouth and one of the real lacrosse players is driving her to the emergency room right now. But another golfer jumps into the goal position. By now you're finding that the passing game is gone, people keep running into the slow-moving flip flopping girls, and you've lost two good players to golf club impacts.
Still having fun? As much fun as you were before the golf girls showed up?
That's what it's like when people with little to no appreciable skills or experience descend on a session, wielding spoons, electric guitars, river rocks (for "percussion"), upright basses, steel drums, etc. (I've seen all of these at sessions.)
It turns out there are different kinds of fun.
The kind of fun I get out of a good session does include welcoming new people, even players who are just getting into the music. But only if they don detract too much from the kind of fun to be had from playing strings of tunes at a danceable tempo, in unison with other musicians, in tune, together on the beat, no one drowning out other players, listening to the variations and nuances that come of years of playing this stuff with attention to the details.
Mind you, this isn't some elitist manifesto. I'm the facilitator for my local sesh. We lean toward the more open, welcoming end of the spectrum as Irish sessions go. We've got a hammered dulcimer player (sometimes two), multiple bodhrans, sometimes multiple guitars, sometimes electric keyboard, the occasional Pogues song, even a bones or spoons player. We routinely help people come into Irish music from other genres--classical, bluegrass, old timey, etc.
But one of the things we teach is that an Irish session is different from a jam session. To join in, you have to learn the tunes. If your instrument distracts more than it contributes, we suggest learning a more appropriate instrument. If you want to just make musical sounds without regard to the nuances of the tunes, we point you toward the jam session down the street. That way, you can go have your fun, and we can have ours. Everybody wins.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: what would you do if....
Protective gear in Lacrosse? That's just . . .wrong. Like steel drums at an Irish session. But then I think they ruined the game when they traded in the rock for a rubber ball (even if it is *nearly* as hard as a rock) and if there isn't a fatality or three it must not have been a very good game, so don't mind me.
Other than that I would like to offer your post the sincerest flatery I I know. . .I wish I'd written it.
KFG
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by KFG
Re: what would you do if....
I see your point will, but I think what sessions need are a balance like you can't be exclusive and arrogant about them only allowing "experts" but I guess you have to find a polite way to include or exclude beginners as well. You dont want to hurt peoples feelings either, sessions are not paid gigs were you can fire people if their not up to standard.
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by banana512
Re: what would you do if....
But Anna, in your definition of "sessions" -- are they open to everyone regardless of what effect they have on it, or should it be torerated because they're beginners?
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: what would you do if....
tolerated even
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: what would you do if....
Hey, Anna. Well, it depends on the session, is my view. At some sessions, it'd be just fine and dandy and all comers welcome. At others, the spoons player would just be asking for a good natured ribbing that got less good natured as they went along. i don't believe we have any in Colorado that would actively eject someone turning up with a set of spoons, but i could see it happening if certain conditions were in force.
If a session is the sort of "all hale and well met", then fine. If not, then fine. It's all up to the session participants.
Personally, I find that spoons are fun for a set, and it goes rapidly downhill from there.
Zina (posting from Pete's account)
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by Reverend
P.s.
oh yes, and it would depend on how good a spoons player that player was. Of course.
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by Reverend
Re: what would you do if....
If sessions allowed only experts we'd all be playing at home (or twiddling our thumbs here), eh?
In my experience, it's not so much balance that's needed as a sense of discretion--from everyone in the circle. By that I mean it makes for a good session when the better players are willing to enjoy a set at half speed just to include a beginner who's trembling with nerves at the thought of trotting out the two tune he's knows. And they all forgive the inevitable stumbles and clap him on the back when they're done, egging him on so he'll float home 3 feet off the ground and come back next week with two more tunes under his belt. And I also mean discretion from the beginners, so they'll sit out tunes they don't know, and play quietly on tunes they're unsure of, and they won't bad mouth the session because the rest of the players can kick it into a higher gear and play tunes that aren't in "101 Common Session Tunes." And discretion from the spoons players, who afterall aren't contributing to the melody at all, and who's rhythmic help really isn't necessary (the melody players can handle that part, too), so they realize they don't need to rattle along on every set.
Many, many Irish sessions are very welcoming, and a set or two with spoons accompanying, or a rendition of the Belfast Hornpipe on paper and comb, or a performance of catching stacks of quarters off your elbow can all be part of the fun.
But at most of the sessions I've been to, the fun hinges on making good music from the usual trad instruments, playing predominantly from the body of trad tunes. So you *do* find ways to encourage beginners and wannabes to go home and woodshed before expecting to sit in. At my sesh, we do a monthly slow session to help newcomers learn the tunes. And a quarterly whistle workshop to help people learn those instruments. And a weekly email list to keep people informed of Irish music concerts they can go to, workshops and camps they can attend, etc. We also use our session tip jar money to buy instruments for a lending library so people can learn to play even if they can't afford an instrument right away. And I've compiled a three volume set of tune books for our session.
I'm not sure how we could be any more welcoming and open *to people who are interested in playing Irish trad music.*
Sure, the odd detour now and then at a session can be fun, but if we wanted to spend the evening playing cajun two steps and Sousa marches with non-musicians wailing away on river rocks and eating utensils, with 6 guitars playing 3 different rhythms and 6 individual chord progressions, we wouldn't have bothered to go to the trouble of setting up an Irish session, would we?
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: what would you do if....
"We also use our session tip jar money to buy instruments for a lending library so people can learn to play even if they can't afford an instrument right away."
Ah! Now that is a bloody fantastic stroke of genius. I just might have to go to a couple of the local libraries and see if they're into the idea. . .have you thought of contacting manufacturers for wholesale prices? I'd bet they'd consider it cheap (i.e., at a profit) advertising for their products to be the first people use. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the request to pay results in the odd (tax deductable) donation as well.
KFG
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by KFG
Re: what would you do if....
Heh, well it was my (non-sessioning) wife's idea, but don't tell her she's a genius--I've worked hard all these years to convince her I'm not as stoopid as I seem, and that might just give her the wrong idea.
Actually, the way our lending library works is we buy (or take donations of) used instruments and I keep them at my house. Most of the instruments have come from our session members. When someone (in a 100 mile radius of Helena Montana) wants to borrow one, they sign it out. No money changes hands, and there's no time limit unless other people are waiting for the same instrument. So far, we've never had a problem with an instrument walking away. But not that many instruments are out at any one time, and so far, most of the borrowers are people in our immediate session circle.
To date, we have the following instruments:
Practice set of Patrick Murray uilleann pipes (with book, cd, and video tutorials)
Five fiddles with bows and cases
Assorted whistles, including one low D whistle
One keyless Delrin flute
One bodhran
I'd like to get a decent Anglo concertina next.
All of our instruments play well, in tune, and are relatively low maintenance. It amazes me that we've collected all these items for less than $550 USD.
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: what would you do if....
It'll cost you 4 times that for a decent Anglo concertina.
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: what would you do if....
Before youse go any further, there *are* sessions where only "experts" are allowed to play...occasionally seen in London, where I wouldn't dare sit in, but more likely seen in maybe Dublin, or the high-end sessions seen at the All-Ireland Feadh or the Willie Clancy week (not that I've been to the latter but possess a Tape of one such gathering.)
But I've also witnessed a session totally dominated by a mad spoons player/comedian, at the 1998(?) Enniscorthy Fleadh who had the whole of the pub splitting their sides at his capers. He'd "order" the musicians at the session to play a rake of tunes to which would "perform" on the spoons...thereupon the cutlery was seen to be clacked under arms, through legs, on the head and so on...then with a sweep, the musos were ordered to shtumm....silence... so he tells some chronic old joke, but with such panache and overbearing presence, that no-one in the pub could help but laugh along this larger than life character. And the musicians at that session seemed happy enough to go along with it.....maybe it'd get a bit wearing after a while, though.
But he was hardly a spoons player per se. Just a character who found the spoons a vehicle for entry into a session for him to do his thing. And a good thing it was.
# Posted on February 28th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: what would you do if....
We've got a fiddler who livens things up in a similar vein by singing the odd song in Lebanese or Slovakian on occasion. Just to remind us all to not take anything too seriously. And I don't juggle at our sessions very often, but it does happen now and then....
The trick to sessioning with the experts is to catch them when no one else is around to session with. It's easy here in the boondocks when some brilliant player passes through--no one else but us mudpuppies to sit in with. *grin*
# Posted on February 28th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: what would you do if....
I have come along a bit late as usual to this thread but hasn't anyone mentioned the great Spoons Murder song. I haven't checked the archives but the melody was posted (under another name) and I think the words got posted in a discussion.
If a member of the session could just learn the song then it could be called into play as a subtle broadside for any offending spoons players.
# Posted on February 28th 2005 by Donough