I'm a beginner flute player, but a lifetime muso, and one of the things I've noticed about my playing is that I can play *the notes*, I can generally get a good feel out of *the tune*, but what I haven't quite figured out yet is how to get proper ITM ornamentation out. Obviously it comes from a lifetime of listening, practicing, working and re-working, but it's hard for me to determine where I should be focusing my energies. Right now I'm just trying to learn as many tunes as I can. Seeing as I can only get out about one night a week, I pick up little at the session I go to (and there are no other flute players there usually). I just got a cd of "Way Too Much Irish Music", with a fair share of ITM fluters on it (Thanx Brad!), and I'm listening to that a lot as well (but forgot to bring it to work today!).
So, I guess the general question is - should I just be focusing on learning tunes and getting a feel for the music that way, or is the style - aka ornamentation - such an integral part of it all that I should be trying to learn that as well - at the same time?
I feel like if I try to ornament, it comes off artificial, and the ornamenting I can do is not really stylistically accurate (e.g. I might do a triple-tongue - because I can - where a roll would be called for)
I think it's probably highly dependent on the individual. Personally, I've never been able to ignore the ornaments and just learn the unadorned tune, but that's probably just my own idiotsyncracy.
My take is that a lot of what you refer to as "ornamentation" is not ornamentation at all, in the sense that it is not an optional gloss to be added to pretty things up. Things like cuts, strikes especially.
To me they are essential components of the musical language of your instrument and for that reason they should be incorporated into tunes from the very beginning. Fancier devices like rolls and crans can wait, but these basics are essential, not optional, imo.
I don't like the sound of a flute without ornamentation. It's integral, in my opinion. Much more important than learning buckets of tunes. At the same time, it takes ages for them to come together and sound anything close to the way they should. I learned how to do a roll at my very first lesson six years ago. I've been working on it ever since and it still doesn't sound like a roll.
But it's going to take WAY longer if you don't even bother.
Don't worry about rolls till you can do cuts and taps with good timing. Then start placing rolls on the dotted quarter notes in jigs and reels. Also where the melody rocks back and forth on adjacent notes (as in the jig Joy of My Life: |GFG AGA|Bee dBA| can be played |~G3 AGA|Bee dBA| or |GFG ~A3|Bee dBA| or |~G3 ~A3| Bee dBA|).
You could do worse than getting a copy of Grey Larson's flute book (it's especially good at explaining how to play a wide variety of ornaments and how they fit in a tune).
Also, pick up the 2 cd Wooden Flute Obsession set (http://www.worldtrad.org/WFO2_CD2.htm) so you can listen to a whole bunch of different players and how much or little they ornament, and where.
To me, ornamentation is there to enhance the tune and rhythm. Yes, learn it, and use it-it always sounds great if played right-but watch out, because you can use too much.
If you play a tune, say, the Kesh Jig, where every note is ornamentated so that it's not recognisable and people start asking what on earth you are playing, THEN you are using too much.
I have to agree with Steve when he says, "My take is that a lot of what you refer to as "ornamentation" is not ornamentation at all, in the sense that it is not an optional gloss to be added to pretty things up."
It's like the language or even the accent that you speak with - the whole character of where you come from is expressed in the very sounds you make.
Excellent point Steve (vis a vis Cammy), and I agree with you. My question was really "is it extra, or part of the tune", and it seems the latter is true, which is what I suspected. Again, being so new to ITM as a player, I'm still getting a handle on things.
I just ordered Larsen's book , as well as the WorldTrad wooden flute CD's (vol 1) and put a rush on them (very impatient am I!).
I am surprised however that no one suggested I find a teacher. Is that unheard of in ITM? I think not, but I am a bit surprised.
Armand, I've going to Tinker's Nest in Warren on Wednesday nights after F&D rehearsal (it's on my way home). EG is about a 45 minute drive for me and Sundays are usually my time w/the family. Perhaps someday I'll make it over there. (PM Coming regarding that session as well)
I reread your question. I rushed through it the first time and was thinking in terms of learning a particular tune and whether it’s worthwhile to learn it without ornaments and add them later. Now, I’ll come down strongly on the side of learning the ornaments with the tune. It’s worth a lot of effort. You can take snatches of tunes and turn them into ornamentation exercises.
I know a couple of fiddlers who mainly play “old time” or bluegrass, but also play several Irish tunes with no ornaments at all. The tunes are inoffensive, but they absolutely do not sound Irish.
FyfferGuy,
I have a feeling I probably know you in the real world, as RI is a small place. When I first started on the tin whistle, without much advice from others, I began learning irish tunes, but I played them fife style, which is the tradition I was more familiar with. So there were few cuts, but lots of tonguing, and other differences--bottom line, they didn't sound like ITM. So I ended up reworking and relearning them later so they were true to the tradition. My advice is, before you learn too many new tunes, get some coaching on playing things the ITM way, and build it into your playing from the ground up--cuts, rolls, etc. It is not just optional ornamentation, it is a way of approaching the tune that is different from the way you have approached them in the past.
AL Brown
I'd just like to add here that although I play (guitar mainly) with a typical Irish/Scottish "accent", I have NOT studied any particular approach to ornamentation and I have no intention of doing so. That would strike me as being artificial and merely academic. I play with my own accent which speaks of where I have come from (I'm Scottish with Irish blood) It's neither "correct" nor "right" , but it's how I do it.
one piece of advice i got given when i asked people i knew the same question was to listen. i discovered that there are people out there who do fantastic things with rolls and triplets, that add to the music, and subconciously i ended up picking up the ornemantation- through recordings and sessions.This gave me the feel for the style that the tunes should be played.
when it came down to learning how to do the rolls/triplets etc- id just take the tune, and practice it- sometimes ridiculously slow to get the ornemantation in place, and then gradually speed up, until it wasnt just a tune, but music.
and i also found that after a while of learning the ornemantations, you get to know where to put them, in various contexts, until it becomes almost second nature, so i'd say learn them as much as you can.
Chris, teachers are not unheard of in ITM, but flute players are not all that common, let alone teachers. Maybe nobody thought you'd be able to find one. Most people go to "workshops" (Some legendary player comes through town and offers some bits of wisdom in a group setting that you can chew on for the next year or so until somebody else comes along).
I've taken about five fiddle lessons in my entire life, and maybe seven or eight workshops. The rest of the advice I'm trying to apply, I've gotten by just cornering people for a bit of a chit chat. The best "trad" teachers are the ones who can say some offhand remark in under ten words about music that you spend the rest of your life figuring out.
The classical style of learning (weekly beatings) isn't all that common in trad from what I've seen, although it does exist.
Keep in mind you can learn an awful lot from watching the people who play at your local session.
Here's Ailin's cram course in ornamentation fof the flute:
Try to use your tongue as little as possible. There's nothing wrong with using the tongue, but if you purposely avoid it, you will quickly become aware of how ornamentation makes an otherwise unplayable phrase playable. This is especially true when playing two consecutive notes of the same pitch. If you don't tongue, you will have to use a cut, roll, glottal start or some other ornament to separate the two notes.
You will also find that it is necessary to use an ornament or a skipped note (in its own way, an ornament) to allow you to take a breath sometimes. This is another good way to insert ornaments but it is as functional as it is ornamental.
Ornaments allow you to vary how you play a tune so that you are not playing the same thing over and over for three times through. See how many ways you can play the same phrase. Another good way to work on this is to try playing the same tune as an air, jig, hornpipe or reel. At a session yesterday, I heard Far From Home played as an air and a hornpipe, whereas I have always played it as a reel. Amazing how the ornaments change with the change in rhythm.
It's a good idea to use an ornament at the very start of a tune so that you have an option for hitting the first note without having to use your tongue.
These are just tools to get you into it. After a while, it will become second nature.
BTW, I'd avoid triple tonguing in lieu of rolls. It's an entirely different sound, and not very trad. If anything, do a trill, but don't let it become habit, or you will work against yourself in becoming a good trad player.
Oh, well since I knew that you are in RI, I figured a teacher or live mentor of some sort was a given. That's by far the best way to go, particularly if you can find someone whose style you like and whose music has been handed down in like manner (from previous players, so the music forms social and personal links as well as simply musical ones).
The problem with talking about ornaments is that we don't have any other good catch-all word to mean "rolls, triplets, cuts, taps, slurs, slides, tongueing, etc." Obviously "ornaments" isn't quite right because it implies these embellishments are tacked onto the melody as asides or afterthoughts, and I've never met any good Irish players who think of them that way.
What we really mean is the different ways to *articulate* the notes and rhythms of the tunes. How an experienced player articulates the notes and rhythms is part and parcel of the tune itself.
So as a newbie to the instrument, you'll want to spend some practice time focusing on the specific articulations to have the physical ability to actually play them. In fact, it's probably a good idea to do a lot of that before you launch into many tunes. Then, when you learn the tunes, the articulations will just be there, gradually at first, and then emerging more and more as you gain an understanding (99.9% by listening) of how this music speaks.
While it's fun to learn a bunch of tunes and play along at sessions, you'll be better off in the long run if you take just a handful of good solid jigs and reels and learn to play them cleanly, with cuts, taps, rolls, triplets, etc., with good tone, intonation, and timing, and above all with feeling. Learn all that on 10 tunes and when you're ready, it will be far easier to start amassing tunes. And they will all sound "right."
My own favorites for really woodshedding on the flute are:
Jigs, Slip Jigs, and Slides:
Kerfunteun Jig (in D and G)
Joy of My Life
Connaughtman's Rambles
Hole in the Hedge (D)
Whinny Hills of Leitrim
Barney Brallaghan
Road to Lisdoonvarna
Reels:
Wind that Shakes the Barley
The Mountain Road
Greenfields of Rossbeigh
Silver Spear
Lisdoonvarna Reel
Cup of Tea
Must pipe in here again: yes, learn from a trad player of any sort. Doesn't have to be a flute player. Also - if you want to "sound" "traditional", DON'T use trills at all. They do not belong. And do use your tongue. Triple tonguing is a totally valid ornament.
I agree with Will - get a few sets of tunes down REALLY WELL with simple ornaments. Listen, listen, and listen some more. It will permeate your brain and you'll get it. Give yourself a few years. It will come. In the mean time be selective and conservative in your ornaments - don't junk things up and throw off the rhythm.
As Will says, it's not ornamentation, it's articulation. The cuts, taps, rolls etc that you might use are aids to phrasing, and also separating out the notes, and as such are essential parts of the tune. The convention that you don't ever tongue on the flute is in my opinion, entirely bogus, and comes from the idea that the pipes provide the 'authentic' framework for the sound of the flute, and of course, THEY can't be tongued, so it must be wrong to tongue(!). Listen to John McKenna, and hear a completely different style of flute playing. Listen again to Harry Bradley, and again, hear something completely different, which might have a fair bit of resonance to a fifer!
The 'authentic' sound comes from coming out of, or immersion in, the tradition, not from following rules IMHO.
Great you mention Harry Bradley. On the "Way too much Irish Music" cd that Brad made for me, he put a few HB tracks on there, and it was my first exposure to him. What a fantastic sound he gets out of his flute! The best word I can think of to describe the sound is "liquid" -- like melted chocolate - kinda like if Nora Jones was a flute. OK, rambling . . . . praps too much chocolate myself today . . .
"Sleep jig" was a Freudian sleep (heh)...I was nodding off as I typed that. Please wake me when they bring the strained carrots and rubber-coated spoon.
my uncle wouldnt let me ornament until i could handle playing in time and accurately.
he was right, because after i got classical lessons, and spent a lot of time on timing, rhythm, and listening, i am much better off, and now i can work on my ornamentation.
everything else first, ornamentation last. however, you seem to be quite competent at everything else, so i would say work on ornamentation if it is what you feel like you should start working on. its much nicer getting a few tunes well done with good ornamentation than having a lot of tunes that you cant play as well as you would like.
I would dare to say, "phrasing and rhythm are more important than ornamentation." As many pointed out above, they are all incorporated into tunes and we can't separate, but I just want to say what you call "ornamentation" is not primarily important. You will come across a lot of players who spend too much time and energy on "ornamentation" and are always off the rhythm. Some other players have both good sense of rhythm and good skills of "ornamentation" but don't play in particularly attractive ways.
I am myself just getting used to rolls on whistle and flute and not an especially good player, but think such kind of techniques can be learned in a few years even though we need to be very patient. As for proper phrasing, it will take us much more time to acquire it. I don't deny that learning rolls and cuts is important, but don't neglect other aspects of music.
Hey FyfferGuy,
Will you be at the concert tonight in the ornamentation capital of Rhode Island, Cranston? I should cut it out and make a graceful exit, but I'm on a roll.
Hey Gary (my name's Chris, actually),
I'd really like to, and I'll see what I can do - my wife usually works Tuesday nights, so I usually don't even try to get out (gotta pay a sitter). My night out is Wed, when I have my F&D rehearsal in EG, after which I usually stop at Tinker's Nest in Warren (where, according to Brad, the box player will be in attendance.)
I disagree strongly with such advice as "everything else first, ornamentation last" and "what you call ornamentation is not primarily important". NOOOOOOOO!!! Don't go saying stuff like that! Or, if you're a whistle or flute player who has decided not to work on the tricky bits (because, as Steve pointed out, ornamentation is *part of the tune*, not an add-on to pretty it up), please don't go out in public and inflict it on other musicians until you've nailed whatever "everything else" is and begun to turn it into "music" by playing it properly, with ornamentation.
OK, I didn't mean to come off so strongly there, and as I mentioned, my own ornamentation stinks. I've been told I shouldn't be out in public myself, in fact. It's just that, with a fiddle, if my playing stinks I can play quietly. With a whistle or a flute you're stuck being audible at all times. Flat, unadorned flute / whistle playing gives me a headache.
Don't put it off. Play as slowly as you need to play in order to get them in without losing your rhythm, then gradually speed up.
Oh, you're *that* Gary . Cool. If I don't see you tonight, I'll definitely be ther Wed.
Kerri (et al) - one of the cool things about a forum like this one, is we get all sorts of advice -- good and bad. It's up to the recipient of the advice to determine which is which -- not necessarily the other adivisors, n'est-ce pas? Let's not turn this into a my-advice-is-better-than-yours match, as I think we're all intelligent enough (I hope) to take what we need out of what is offered. No dis intended, Kerri, and I do appreciate your input and experience as well as all others!
Ultimately if you spend time learning lots of tunes but do not bother with the ornamentation then it just means you will have to relearn the tune again later. There of plenty of tunes that minus cuts and rolls sound boring and dull - add the rolls and it is a completely different tune. You often can not really seperate the rhythm and the ornamentation as the ornamentation often dictates this rhythm.
Take the time top learn the ornamentation and pick tunes to learn where you can get good practice with this. The Monaghan Jig is a good tune for rolls and as Kerri says play it as slow as you need. Eventually the notes will fall in place and you can speed up - at least that is what I am hoping for my own learning. Only time will tell. :-S
Alright, Chris. It wasn't my intention to get into a p*ssing contest, only to express my extreme dislike of unornamented flute playing. As usual, I forgot to fill my comment with IMHOs and winking smileys and close it off with "My opinion is stupid and wrong".
I don't understand why it's so important to have all the ornaments in place before playing in sessions. If there's six players and four of them are playing the ornaments, who'll notice if the other two aren't? And if they do and it bothers them so much, then they've lost track of what sessions are about.
Point taken Kerri -- I actually happen to agree with you, which is why, way back at the beginning of this thread, I make no reference of my ability to make "music" that even remotely sounds like what it's s'posed to. That's one of the hard things for me, being a muso, is that I know what it's supposed to sound like, and I know that I'm nowhere near that. Patience is not my strong suit.
"If there's six players and four of them are playing the ornaments, who'll notice if the other two aren't?"
The six who are.
"if they do and it bothers them so much, then they've lost track of what sessions are about"
I think I must have missed the class on what sessions are "about". (I'll give you ten bucks if you can find three people in here who agree.)
All I'm saying is that an unornamented whistle playing straight through all those spots the other players have worked so hard to bring to life with ornamentation is damaging to the overall sound. It adds nothing. How people react to other people whose playing detracts from the overall sound is their own business. Some people won't be bothered and some people will.
I don't find it all that offensive personally, because, as I mentioned, there's not much in my own playing that's going to be ruined by another mediocre player joining in. It seems to be extremely offensive to people who have spent years trying to get it right, though.
Don't give up grego! Don't let her get away only being down $6.67, go for the whole ten bucks and find two more people! (I would join in , but I missed the class too, I hope I can get into the next one though)
Hmmm. I'd say that ornamentation is very important (as is, at times, the lack of same -- anybody remember who Prof. Ciaran Carson was talking about when he wrote about a player he respected who played in "a fine, unornamented style" in "Last Night's Fun"?). As to where it falls in order of importance, I'd say that it's highly variable. All things in moderation - including moderation. I was taught (mainly by Shannon Heaton) that the goal was to have fewer tunes that I played very well, at least for the first five years or so. (Sometimes I feel like I'm getting that, other times it's an uphill slog through five feet of mud, but that's the way it goes.)
That included, among other things, a good feel of the pulse and beat, ornamentation according to my current taste, developed by listening to as much music as possible, and a good working knowledge of the tune I happened to be playing at the time -- she didn't expect me to do too much variation (although some work at it was def expected), which was later corroborated for me by Eliot Grasso during an interview ("It's really only through playing a tune millions of times that one becomes bored and therefore inventive").
Latterly, of course, I've had to start cramming in the tunes, but it comes easier once you've got a few hundred under your fingers first. I've mentioned before how one very well known fiddle teacher told me that she wished it was in human nature not to be bored with tunes, because she felt she could teach a student everything they needed to know about playing Irish music with four tunes that they knew really really well, but of course four tunes in a year is a good way to make someone put down the instrument forever!
My practical experience is that it's good to stop at about 100 tunes for a bit and make sure that you've got your style developing well, along with all the other technique stuff that keeps you from injuring yourself. To listen is the most important, of course. Not just to recordings, but also out at your local. (If you develop a style that doesn't work well with the style of the players you generally play with, what good will it do you?)
I suppose that's a bit more than two cents, but oh well. Give my love and regrds to Brad, please, Chris, and tell him I think of him fondly, often!
> I don't like the sound of a flute without ornamentation. It's integral, in my opinion.
Are you familiar with the playing of Micho Russell? I only ask 'cos it strikes me his was a pretty unadorned style of playing (at least in terms of ornamentation). What do you make of his music?
nope. I listen to more fiddlers than anything (understandably). I've been thinking of getting some good flute, pipe, and concertina stuff lately, so I will check him out.
But there's a huge difference between "sparse" ornamentation and "no" ornamentation. IMHO smiley, smiley.
ok...The most important aspect of ITM is an understanding of the tune (viz.) the melody and rhythm. Ornamentation means nothing if you don't have a good feel for the tune. Another way of saying this is...you can't ARTICULATE until you have a solid concept of what you want to express and how you wish to express it. I can think of three ways of discovering what one may want to express...1-listening to the tune, 2-singing the tune and 3-practicing the tune.
All that being said, simply playing the tune without ornamentation or articulation is quite boring. ITM is a very simple musical form. The vast majority of ITM has been composed in the limited number of keys that can easily be played on a D whistle such as Dmaj, Emin, Gmaj…whatever. Few accidentals outside of these common ITM keys can be found in the plethora of tunes that have been composed. Also, the amount of and differences between rhythms and song structures commonly found in ITM is limited. This all leads to boring sounding tunes should ornamentation not be employed.
A few attributes of ornamentation thus far not discussed should be addressed. Ornamentation can really help improve ones timing and rhythmic ability. Also, once ornamentation has become second nature, it actually becomes easier to play a tune with the ornamentation than without and allows one to play the tune quicker. An example would be the following....the notes EGE played as a jig can be easily played as a rolled E (on the whistle), which, when the ornamentation has been relatively well developed, 1-Is easier to play, 2-Can be played more quickly, 3-Allows for a better sense of timing and may offer a more interesting rhythm and 4-Can have an excellent ITM sound we all try to exhibit. Ornamentation can also give one a better feel for a tune as a whole.
Finally, other techniques such as tonguing and trilling should be learned if you feel like doing so or if you appreciate the sound effect the technique generates. Have everything that you can possibly have in your arsenal. You don’t have to use it if you don’t want. Somebody had mentioned that trills don’t belong in Irish traditional music. To some extent I agree in that trills aren’t particularly common in ITM, but I have heard them used, especially in tunes which are influenced by the Baroque or Classical styles such as O’Carolan’s Si Bheag Si Mhor. Also, tonguing can add interesting effects to a tune as well as allow you to save breath and allow you to comfortably squeeze out an extra measure on a single breath.
kerri - yes, completely unornamented music can be boring, but completely ornamented unmusical music is worse.
if you didnt like how i said it before, how about this. dont put ornamentation in until you can do it without losing time.
everything i do isnt perfect, but the ornamentation doesnt mess with my time (or lack of, ^_^). it used to and at that point i wasnt allowed to do it. get everything steady enough that you can incorporate ornamentation in, is what i meant by ornamentation last (start working on ornamentation last, but that doesnt mean you should be finished with everything else).
Hey FyfferGuy,
I see some general recommendations for teachers above, so lets just cut to the chase, and let me give you some specific advice. You have one of the best fife players/Irish flute players on the planet in East Greenwich, Skip Healy. Skip started on fife, and learned to play Irish so well he sounds like just got off the boat from County Tipperary. And since Skip is out of town a lot these days, try Mark Bachand, who also made the transition from fife to flute, and is pretty good at the Irish flute himself. You can contact either of them via Skip's website.
AL Brown
daiv, I didn't say it was boring, I said I don't like it.
But I agree with you anyway. Just because I was "working on" my ornamentation for the last 6 years doesn't mean I was actually *using it* while trying to play at speed. It definitely would have screwed up my rhythm. Now some of that hard work is beginning to come through in my playing at full throttle. If I hadn't been *working* on it all this time, it wouldn't be there for the using, now that I'm ready to use it. Know what I mean?
The wonderful thing about "ornamentation" in ITM is that their is a fair amount of leeway for personal interpretation. My background is in the GHB competition scene. To get anywhere, you MUST play the ornamentations exactly as written in a well-known tunebook, or the judge will dock significant points. While this is wonderful for really learning the technique backwards and forwards, it is incredibly conservative. ITMers are relatively free to create a definite "sound" for themselves that lies well within the bounds of tradition.
Very fun to read. I couldn't put what I've been thinking into words satisfactorily, but some people did. Thanks all for interesting comments.
As for GHB competition, I read it's been destructing the spirit of folk music, and some serious pipers head for Cape Breton to learn authentic Scottish piping. I think it's Hamish Moore who wrote so.
I just remember when I didn't know how to do rolls, I was learning tunes which sound fine without ornamentation. Some important session tunes sound boring if we leave out rolls, but quite a lot of others sound OK if they aren't heavily ornamented. Some simple tunes like Kerfunten sound best when played very simply, I think.
Precisely my point. The cuts and rolls are an important part of the music - but it's just as important to give the lift or swing to the music. And on a fiddle that's done with the bow-hand...
There was a guy at last night's session playing super-stacatto fiddle, all single bows, no ornaments, as if he were bouncing along in the back of a pick-up truck. Sounded strange to my ears (to say the least) but as whenever another instrument joined in (didn't often happen, as it was next to impossible to recognize the tunes) it sounded kind of... wicked. Really cool. So I take back everything I said about "playing things properly". It's best to keep an open mind.
I just received my worldtrad.org WFO(vol1) cd's and, reading the liner notes, found the following gem, which I think should nicely close the subject (and would have answered my original question had I waited the 2 days for shipping before posting my question), and I quote:
"It could be argued that the central concern of Irish music is rhythm, either how you make it or how you don't. The majority of what is called ornamentation and is seen to characterize traditional Irish music are rhythmical devices. Articulation techniques are chosen according to the amount and type of emphasis they afford, and phrases are broken or remade. The tone and timbre of the instrument are often dictated by the use of rhythmical devices such as pushing with the diaphragm, and, the ultimate concern of many 'trad' fluters, volume, or perhaps more accurately the volume of the rhythm they can make."
I'm a fifer who lives in RI also...I'm pretty much in the same situation you are. I started playing flute, and I was tonguing a lot and I wasn't exactly sure how to use the ornamentation. I've been working my way through Grey Larsen's book, and it tells you how to play, and how to use each type of ornament. My suggestion is, when you get the book, work your way from the begining to the end, practicing each excersise and learning each tune on the way, then go back and work the stuff that you learned into the tunes that you already know
That really is a great answer to the question. I guess it's sort of like blues harmonica. Just playing the tune without all the note bending, overblowing and tone shaping would not sound like blues.
"There was a guy at last night's session playing super-stacatto fiddle, all single bows, no ornaments. . . it was next to impossible to recognize the tunes"
I'd say he was playing with rather extreme ornamentaion then, just in a manner that you aren't used to thinking of as "ornamentation," because it lacked a melodic componant.
"So I take back everything I said about "playing things properly"."
Ahhhhh, if only we were issued rule books at birth, and they worked.
How important is ornamentation?
How important is ornamentation?
I'm a beginner flute player, but a lifetime muso, and one of the things I've noticed about my playing is that I can play *the notes*, I can generally get a good feel out of *the tune*, but what I haven't quite figured out yet is how to get proper ITM ornamentation out. Obviously it comes from a lifetime of listening, practicing, working and re-working, but it's hard for me to determine where I should be focusing my energies. Right now I'm just trying to learn as many tunes as I can. Seeing as I can only get out about one night a week, I pick up little at the session I go to (and there are no other flute players there usually). I just got a cd of "Way Too Much Irish Music", with a fair share of ITM fluters on it (Thanx Brad!), and I'm listening to that a lot as well (but forgot to bring it to work today!).
So, I guess the general question is - should I just be focusing on learning tunes and getting a feel for the music that way, or is the style - aka ornamentation - such an integral part of it all that I should be trying to learn that as well - at the same time?
I feel like if I try to ornament, it comes off artificial, and the ornamenting I can do is not really stylistically accurate (e.g. I might do a triple-tongue - because I can - where a roll would be called for)
Whadday'all think?
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I think it's probably highly dependent on the individual. Personally, I've never been able to ignore the ornaments and just learn the unadorned tune, but that's probably just my own idiotsyncracy.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: How important is ornamentation?
My take is that a lot of what you refer to as "ornamentation" is not ornamentation at all, in the sense that it is not an optional gloss to be added to pretty things up. Things like cuts, strikes especially.
To me they are essential components of the musical language of your instrument and for that reason they should be incorporated into tunes from the very beginning. Fancier devices like rolls and crans can wait, but these basics are essential, not optional, imo.
Steve
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I don't like the sound of a flute without ornamentation. It's integral, in my opinion. Much more important than learning buckets of tunes. At the same time, it takes ages for them to come together and sound anything close to the way they should. I learned how to do a roll at my very first lesson six years ago. I've been working on it ever since and it still doesn't sound like a roll.
But it's going to take WAY longer if you don't even bother.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Don't worry about rolls till you can do cuts and taps with good timing. Then start placing rolls on the dotted quarter notes in jigs and reels. Also where the melody rocks back and forth on adjacent notes (as in the jig Joy of My Life: |GFG AGA|Bee dBA| can be played |~G3 AGA|Bee dBA| or |GFG ~A3|Bee dBA| or |~G3 ~A3| Bee dBA|).
You could do worse than getting a copy of Grey Larson's flute book (it's especially good at explaining how to play a wide variety of ornaments and how they fit in a tune).
Also, pick up the 2 cd Wooden Flute Obsession set (http://www.worldtrad.org/WFO2_CD2.htm) so you can listen to a whole bunch of different players and how much or little they ornament, and where.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Practice ornaments on the tin whistle first and then move them to the flute. It's not exactly the same, but you might progress faster that way.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by kate-dowling
Re: How important is ornamentation?
To me, ornamentation is there to enhance the tune and rhythm. Yes, learn it, and use it-it always sounds great if played right-but watch out, because you can use too much.
If you play a tune, say, the Kesh Jig, where every note is ornamentated so that it's not recognisable and people start asking what on earth you are playing, THEN you are using too much.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Folkie Junkie
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Aye, ornamentation is pretty important, but don't overdo it!
By the way, what session are you going to? If you're going to the one in East Greenwich at Skip's place, I might see you there soon!
Cheers,
Armand
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by armandale
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I have to agree with Steve when he says, "My take is that a lot of what you refer to as "ornamentation" is not ornamentation at all, in the sense that it is not an optional gloss to be added to pretty things up."
It's like the language or even the accent that you speak with - the whole character of where you come from is expressed in the very sounds you make.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Cammy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Excellent point Steve (vis a vis Cammy), and I agree with you. My question was really "is it extra, or part of the tune", and it seems the latter is true, which is what I suspected. Again, being so new to ITM as a player, I'm still getting a handle on things.
I just ordered Larsen's book , as well as the WorldTrad wooden flute CD's (vol 1) and put a rush on them (very impatient am I!).
I am surprised however that no one suggested I find a teacher. Is that unheard of in ITM? I think not, but I am a bit surprised.
Armand, I've going to Tinker's Nest in Warren on Wednesday nights after F&D rehearsal (it's on my way home). EG is about a 45 minute drive for me and Sundays are usually my time w/the family. Perhaps someday I'll make it over there. (PM Coming regarding that session as well)
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I reread your question. I rushed through it the first time and was thinking in terms of learning a particular tune and whether it’s worthwhile to learn it without ornaments and add them later. Now, I’ll come down strongly on the side of learning the ornaments with the tune. It’s worth a lot of effort. You can take snatches of tunes and turn them into ornamentation exercises.
I know a couple of fiddlers who mainly play “old time” or bluegrass, but also play several Irish tunes with no ornaments at all. The tunes are inoffensive, but they absolutely do not sound Irish.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Thanks Bob.
That's been my goal in sessions: to be "inoffensive".
I've got lots of work to do.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
FyfferGuy,
I have a feeling I probably know you in the real world, as RI is a small place. When I first started on the tin whistle, without much advice from others, I began learning irish tunes, but I played them fife style, which is the tradition I was more familiar with. So there were few cuts, but lots of tonguing, and other differences--bottom line, they didn't sound like ITM. So I ended up reworking and relearning them later so they were true to the tradition. My advice is, before you learn too many new tunes, get some coaching on playing things the ITM way, and build it into your playing from the ground up--cuts, rolls, etc. It is not just optional ornamentation, it is a way of approaching the tune that is different from the way you have approached them in the past.
AL Brown
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
vital. it IS the music
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I'd just like to add here that although I play (guitar mainly) with a typical Irish/Scottish "accent", I have NOT studied any particular approach to ornamentation and I have no intention of doing so. That would strike me as being artificial and merely academic. I play with my own accent which speaks of where I have come from (I'm Scottish with Irish blood) It's neither "correct" nor "right" , but it's how I do it.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Cammy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
one piece of advice i got given when i asked people i knew the same question was to listen. i discovered that there are people out there who do fantastic things with rolls and triplets, that add to the music, and subconciously i ended up picking up the ornemantation- through recordings and sessions.This gave me the feel for the style that the tunes should be played.
when it came down to learning how to do the rolls/triplets etc- id just take the tune, and practice it- sometimes ridiculously slow to get the ornemantation in place, and then gradually speed up, until it wasnt just a tune, but music.
and i also found that after a while of learning the ornemantations, you get to know where to put them, in various contexts, until it becomes almost second nature, so i'd say learn them as much as you can.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by aaron b
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Chris, teachers are not unheard of in ITM, but flute players are not all that common, let alone teachers. Maybe nobody thought you'd be able to find one. Most people go to "workshops" (Some legendary player comes through town and offers some bits of wisdom in a group setting that you can chew on for the next year or so until somebody else comes along).
I've taken about five fiddle lessons in my entire life, and maybe seven or eight workshops. The rest of the advice I'm trying to apply, I've gotten by just cornering people for a bit of a chit chat. The best "trad" teachers are the ones who can say some offhand remark in under ten words about music that you spend the rest of your life figuring out.
The classical style of learning (weekly beatings) isn't all that common in trad from what I've seen, although it does exist.
Keep in mind you can learn an awful lot from watching the people who play at your local session.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Here's Ailin's cram course in ornamentation fof the flute:
Try to use your tongue as little as possible. There's nothing wrong with using the tongue, but if you purposely avoid it, you will quickly become aware of how ornamentation makes an otherwise unplayable phrase playable. This is especially true when playing two consecutive notes of the same pitch. If you don't tongue, you will have to use a cut, roll, glottal start or some other ornament to separate the two notes.
You will also find that it is necessary to use an ornament or a skipped note (in its own way, an ornament) to allow you to take a breath sometimes. This is another good way to insert ornaments but it is as functional as it is ornamental.
Ornaments allow you to vary how you play a tune so that you are not playing the same thing over and over for three times through. See how many ways you can play the same phrase. Another good way to work on this is to try playing the same tune as an air, jig, hornpipe or reel. At a session yesterday, I heard Far From Home played as an air and a hornpipe, whereas I have always played it as a reel. Amazing how the ornaments change with the change in rhythm.
It's a good idea to use an ornament at the very start of a tune so that you have an option for hitting the first note without having to use your tongue.
These are just tools to get you into it. After a while, it will become second nature.
BTW, I'd avoid triple tonguing in lieu of rolls. It's an entirely different sound, and not very trad. If anything, do a trill, but don't let it become habit, or you will work against yourself in becoming a good trad player.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Ailin
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I love you guys.
Where do send the check?
But seriously, lots of grand advice -- and heed it (in pieces) I will.
Keep it coming, please ....
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Oh, well since I knew that you are in RI, I figured a teacher or live mentor of some sort was a given. That's by far the best way to go, particularly if you can find someone whose style you like and whose music has been handed down in like manner (from previous players, so the music forms social and personal links as well as simply musical ones).
The problem with talking about ornaments is that we don't have any other good catch-all word to mean "rolls, triplets, cuts, taps, slurs, slides, tongueing, etc." Obviously "ornaments" isn't quite right because it implies these embellishments are tacked onto the melody as asides or afterthoughts, and I've never met any good Irish players who think of them that way.
What we really mean is the different ways to *articulate* the notes and rhythms of the tunes. How an experienced player articulates the notes and rhythms is part and parcel of the tune itself.
So as a newbie to the instrument, you'll want to spend some practice time focusing on the specific articulations to have the physical ability to actually play them. In fact, it's probably a good idea to do a lot of that before you launch into many tunes. Then, when you learn the tunes, the articulations will just be there, gradually at first, and then emerging more and more as you gain an understanding (99.9% by listening) of how this music speaks.
While it's fun to learn a bunch of tunes and play along at sessions, you'll be better off in the long run if you take just a handful of good solid jigs and reels and learn to play them cleanly, with cuts, taps, rolls, triplets, etc., with good tone, intonation, and timing, and above all with feeling. Learn all that on 10 tunes and when you're ready, it will be far easier to start amassing tunes. And they will all sound "right."
My own favorites for really woodshedding on the flute are:
Jigs, Slip Jigs, and Slides:
Kerfunteun Jig (in D and G)
Joy of My Life
Connaughtman's Rambles
Hole in the Hedge (D)
Whinny Hills of Leitrim
Barney Brallaghan
Road to Lisdoonvarna
Reels:
Wind that Shakes the Barley
The Mountain Road
Greenfields of Rossbeigh
Silver Spear
Lisdoonvarna Reel
Cup of Tea
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Ooops...for Barney Brallaghan I mean Boys of Ballisadare (the sleep jig, not the reel), but actually Barney is a good flute tune too.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Must pipe in here again: yes, learn from a trad player of any sort. Doesn't have to be a flute player. Also - if you want to "sound" "traditional", DON'T use trills at all. They do not belong. And do use your tongue. Triple tonguing is a totally valid ornament.
I agree with Will - get a few sets of tunes down REALLY WELL with simple ornaments. Listen, listen, and listen some more. It will permeate your brain and you'll get it. Give yourself a few years. It will come. In the mean time be selective and conservative in your ornaments - don't junk things up and throw off the rhythm.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by kate-dowling
Re: How important is ornamentation?
"sleep jig"? Will, I didn't know you were French!
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
As Will says, it's not ornamentation, it's articulation. The cuts, taps, rolls etc that you might use are aids to phrasing, and also separating out the notes, and as such are essential parts of the tune. The convention that you don't ever tongue on the flute is in my opinion, entirely bogus, and comes from the idea that the pipes provide the 'authentic' framework for the sound of the flute, and of course, THEY can't be tongued, so it must be wrong to tongue(!). Listen to John McKenna, and hear a completely different style of flute playing. Listen again to Harry Bradley, and again, hear something completely different, which might have a fair bit of resonance to a fifer!
The 'authentic' sound comes from coming out of, or immersion in, the tradition, not from following rules IMHO.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Ottery
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Great you mention Harry Bradley. On the "Way too much Irish Music" cd that Brad made for me, he put a few HB tracks on there, and it was my first exposure to him. What a fantastic sound he gets out of his flute! The best word I can think of to describe the sound is "liquid" -- like melted chocolate - kinda like if Nora Jones was a flute. OK, rambling . . . . praps too much chocolate myself today . . .
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
"The classical style of learning (weekly beatings). . ."
Ah, so you you knew my childhood very old, and very, very German violin master, did you now?
KFG
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by KFG
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Wee wee Kerri, moan-a-me. Ooo la la.
There, I've used up my French.
"Sleep jig" was a Freudian sleep (heh)...I was nodding off as I typed that. Please wake me when they bring the strained carrots and rubber-coated spoon.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: How important is ornamentation?
my uncle wouldnt let me ornament until i could handle playing in time and accurately.
he was right, because after i got classical lessons, and spent a lot of time on timing, rhythm, and listening, i am much better off, and now i can work on my ornamentation.
everything else first, ornamentation last. however, you seem to be quite competent at everything else, so i would say work on ornamentation if it is what you feel like you should start working on. its much nicer getting a few tunes well done with good ornamentation than having a lot of tunes that you cant play as well as you would like.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by daiv
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I would dare to say, "phrasing and rhythm are more important than ornamentation." As many pointed out above, they are all incorporated into tunes and we can't separate, but I just want to say what you call "ornamentation" is not primarily important. You will come across a lot of players who spend too much time and energy on "ornamentation" and are always off the rhythm. Some other players have both good sense of rhythm and good skills of "ornamentation" but don't play in particularly attractive ways.
I am myself just getting used to rolls on whistle and flute and not an especially good player, but think such kind of techniques can be learned in a few years even though we need to be very patient. As for proper phrasing, it will take us much more time to acquire it. I don't deny that learning rolls and cuts is important, but don't neglect other aspects of music.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by slainte
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Hey FyfferGuy,
Will you be at the concert tonight in the ornamentation capital of Rhode Island, Cranston? I should cut it out and make a graceful exit, but I'm on a roll.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Hey Gary (my name's Chris, actually),
I'd really like to, and I'll see what I can do - my wife usually works Tuesday nights, so I usually don't even try to get out (gotta pay a sitter). My night out is Wed, when I have my F&D rehearsal in EG, after which I usually stop at Tinker's Nest in Warren (where, according to Brad, the box player will be in attendance.)
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Hi Chris,
We met at the Tinker's Nest two weeks ago (and once or twice before, I think). Hope you can make it tonight.
Gary
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I disagree strongly with such advice as "everything else first, ornamentation last" and "what you call ornamentation is not primarily important". NOOOOOOOO!!! Don't go saying stuff like that! Or, if you're a whistle or flute player who has decided not to work on the tricky bits (because, as Steve pointed out, ornamentation is *part of the tune*, not an add-on to pretty it up), please don't go out in public and inflict it on other musicians until you've nailed whatever "everything else" is and begun to turn it into "music" by playing it properly, with ornamentation.
OK, I didn't mean to come off so strongly there, and as I mentioned, my own ornamentation stinks. I've been told I shouldn't be out in public myself, in fact. It's just that, with a fiddle, if my playing stinks I can play quietly. With a whistle or a flute you're stuck being audible at all times. Flat, unadorned flute / whistle playing gives me a headache.
Don't put it off. Play as slowly as you need to play in order to get them in without losing your rhythm, then gradually speed up.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Oh, you're *that* Gary . Cool. If I don't see you tonight, I'll definitely be ther Wed.
Kerri (et al) - one of the cool things about a forum like this one, is we get all sorts of advice -- good and bad. It's up to the recipient of the advice to determine which is which -- not necessarily the other adivisors, n'est-ce pas? Let's not turn this into a my-advice-is-better-than-yours match, as I think we're all intelligent enough (I hope) to take what we need out of what is offered. No dis intended, Kerri, and I do appreciate your input and experience as well as all others!
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Ultimately if you spend time learning lots of tunes but do not bother with the ornamentation then it just means you will have to relearn the tune again later. There of plenty of tunes that minus cuts and rolls sound boring and dull - add the rolls and it is a completely different tune. You often can not really seperate the rhythm and the ornamentation as the ornamentation often dictates this rhythm.
Take the time top learn the ornamentation and pick tunes to learn where you can get good practice with this. The Monaghan Jig is a good tune for rolls and as Kerri says play it as slow as you need. Eventually the notes will fall in place and you can speed up - at least that is what I am hoping for my own learning. Only time will tell. :-S
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Confused smileys dont appear to work. Never mind :S
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Alright, Chris. It wasn't my intention to get into a p*ssing contest, only to express my extreme dislike of unornamented flute playing. As usual, I forgot to fill my comment with IMHOs and winking smileys and close it off with "My opinion is stupid and wrong".
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
HA HA !!
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by BegF
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I don't understand why it's so important to have all the ornaments in place before playing in sessions. If there's six players and four of them are playing the ornaments, who'll notice if the other two aren't? And if they do and it bothers them so much, then they've lost track of what sessions are about.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Point taken Kerri -- I actually happen to agree with you, which is why, way back at the beginning of this thread, I make no reference of my ability to make "music" that even remotely sounds like what it's s'posed to. That's one of the hard things for me, being a muso, is that I know what it's supposed to sound like, and I know that I'm nowhere near that. Patience is not my strong suit.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
"If there's six players and four of them are playing the ornaments, who'll notice if the other two aren't?"
The six who are.
"if they do and it bothers them so much, then they've lost track of what sessions are about"
I think I must have missed the class on what sessions are "about". (I'll give you ten bucks if you can find three people in here who agree.)
All I'm saying is that an unornamented whistle playing straight through all those spots the other players have worked so hard to bring to life with ornamentation is damaging to the overall sound. It adds nothing. How people react to other people whose playing detracts from the overall sound is their own business. Some people won't be bothered and some people will.
I don't find it all that offensive personally, because, as I mentioned, there's not much in my own playing that's going to be ruined by another mediocre player joining in. It seems to be extremely offensive to people who have spent years trying to get it right, though.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Whoops. Should be "the *four* who are".
lol. Suddenly I don't look half so clever, do I?
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
It's OK Kerri - but now we know, while you may be a musician, you're not a mathematician
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I agree that Kerri missed the class on what sessions are "about". Are there two more of us out there so she will be out ten bucks?
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by grego
maybe we only need one more. Kerri herself agrees with it.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by grego
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Don't give up grego! Don't let her get away only being down $6.67, go for the whole ten bucks and find two more people! (I would join in , but I missed the class too, I hope I can get into the next one though)
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by RogueFiddler
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Hmmm. I'd say that ornamentation is very important (as is, at times, the lack of same -- anybody remember who Prof. Ciaran Carson was talking about when he wrote about a player he respected who played in "a fine, unornamented style" in "Last Night's Fun"?). As to where it falls in order of importance, I'd say that it's highly variable. All things in moderation - including moderation. I was taught (mainly by Shannon Heaton) that the goal was to have fewer tunes that I played very well, at least for the first five years or so. (Sometimes I feel like I'm getting that, other times it's an uphill slog through five feet of mud, but that's the way it goes.)
Give my love and regrds to Brad, please, Chris, and tell him I think of him fondly, often!
That included, among other things, a good feel of the pulse and beat, ornamentation according to my current taste, developed by listening to as much music as possible, and a good working knowledge of the tune I happened to be playing at the time -- she didn't expect me to do too much variation (although some work at it was def expected), which was later corroborated for me by Eliot Grasso during an interview ("It's really only through playing a tune millions of times that one becomes bored and therefore inventive").
Latterly, of course, I've had to start cramming in the tunes, but it comes easier once you've got a few hundred under your fingers first. I've mentioned before how one very well known fiddle teacher told me that she wished it was in human nature not to be bored with tunes, because she felt she could teach a student everything they needed to know about playing Irish music with four tunes that they knew really really well, but of course four tunes in a year is a good way to make someone put down the instrument forever!
My practical experience is that it's good to stop at about 100 tunes for a bit and make sure that you've got your style developing well, along with all the other technique stuff that keeps you from injuring yourself. To listen is the most important, of course. Not just to recordings, but also out at your local. (If you develop a style that doesn't work well with the style of the players you generally play with, what good will it do you?)
I suppose that's a bit more than two cents, but oh well.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: How important is ornamentation?
> I don't like the sound of a flute without ornamentation. It's integral, in my opinion.
Are you familiar with the playing of Micho Russell? I only ask 'cos it strikes me his was a pretty unadorned style of playing (at least in terms of ornamentation). What do you make of his music?
Ed.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Presumin Ed
Re: How important is ornamentation?
nope. I listen to more fiddlers than anything (understandably). I've been thinking of getting some good flute, pipe, and concertina stuff lately, so I will check him out.
But there's a huge difference between "sparse" ornamentation and "no" ornamentation. IMHO smiley, smiley.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
ok...The most important aspect of ITM is an understanding of the tune (viz.) the melody and rhythm. Ornamentation means nothing if you don't have a good feel for the tune. Another way of saying this is...you can't ARTICULATE until you have a solid concept of what you want to express and how you wish to express it. I can think of three ways of discovering what one may want to express...1-listening to the tune, 2-singing the tune and 3-practicing the tune.
All that being said, simply playing the tune without ornamentation or articulation is quite boring. ITM is a very simple musical form. The vast majority of ITM has been composed in the limited number of keys that can easily be played on a D whistle such as Dmaj, Emin, Gmaj…whatever. Few accidentals outside of these common ITM keys can be found in the plethora of tunes that have been composed. Also, the amount of and differences between rhythms and song structures commonly found in ITM is limited. This all leads to boring sounding tunes should ornamentation not be employed.
A few attributes of ornamentation thus far not discussed should be addressed. Ornamentation can really help improve ones timing and rhythmic ability. Also, once ornamentation has become second nature, it actually becomes easier to play a tune with the ornamentation than without and allows one to play the tune quicker. An example would be the following....the notes EGE played as a jig can be easily played as a rolled E (on the whistle), which, when the ornamentation has been relatively well developed, 1-Is easier to play, 2-Can be played more quickly, 3-Allows for a better sense of timing and may offer a more interesting rhythm and 4-Can have an excellent ITM sound we all try to exhibit. Ornamentation can also give one a better feel for a tune as a whole.
Finally, other techniques such as tonguing and trilling should be learned if you feel like doing so or if you appreciate the sound effect the technique generates. Have everything that you can possibly have in your arsenal. You don’t have to use it if you don’t want. Somebody had mentioned that trills don’t belong in Irish traditional music. To some extent I agree in that trills aren’t particularly common in ITM, but I have heard them used, especially in tunes which are influenced by the Baroque or Classical styles such as O’Carolan’s Si Bheag Si Mhor. Also, tonguing can add interesting effects to a tune as well as allow you to save breath and allow you to comfortably squeeze out an extra measure on a single breath.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Pete D
Re: How important is ornamentation?
kerri - yes, completely unornamented music can be boring, but completely ornamented unmusical music is worse.
if you didnt like how i said it before, how about this. dont put ornamentation in until you can do it without losing time.
everything i do isnt perfect, but the ornamentation doesnt mess with my time (or lack of, ^_^). it used to and at that point i wasnt allowed to do it. get everything steady enough that you can incorporate ornamentation in, is what i meant by ornamentation last (start working on ornamentation last, but that doesnt mean you should be finished with everything else).
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by daiv
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Hey FyfferGuy,
I see some general recommendations for teachers above, so lets just cut to the chase, and let me give you some specific advice. You have one of the best fife players/Irish flute players on the planet in East Greenwich, Skip Healy. Skip started on fife, and learned to play Irish so well he sounds like just got off the boat from County Tipperary. And since Skip is out of town a lot these days, try Mark Bachand, who also made the transition from fife to flute, and is pretty good at the Irish flute himself. You can contact either of them via Skip's website.
AL Brown
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
daiv, I didn't say it was boring, I said I don't like it.
But I agree with you anyway. Just because I was "working on" my ornamentation for the last 6 years doesn't mean I was actually *using it* while trying to play at speed. It definitely would have screwed up my rhythm. Now some of that hard work is beginning to come through in my playing at full throttle. If I hadn't been *working* on it all this time, it wouldn't be there for the using, now that I'm ready to use it. Know what I mean?
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Thanks for the suggestions Al (check email for PM).
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
The wonderful thing about "ornamentation" in ITM is that their is a fair amount of leeway for personal interpretation. My background is in the GHB competition scene. To get anywhere, you MUST play the ornamentations exactly as written in a well-known tunebook, or the judge will dock significant points. While this is wonderful for really learning the technique backwards and forwards, it is incredibly conservative. ITMers are relatively free to create a definite "sound" for themselves that lies well within the bounds of tradition.
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by wormdiet
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Very fun to read. I couldn't put what I've been thinking into words satisfactorily, but some people did. Thanks all for interesting comments.
As for GHB competition, I read it's been destructing the spirit of folk music, and some serious pipers head for Cape Breton to learn authentic Scottish piping. I think it's Hamish Moore who wrote so.
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by slainte
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I just remember when I didn't know how to do rolls, I was learning tunes which sound fine without ornamentation. Some important session tunes sound boring if we leave out rolls, but quite a lot of others sound OK if they aren't heavily ornamented. Some simple tunes like Kerfunten sound best when played very simply, I think.
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by slainte
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Hey, no trills, okay?
And re: Micho Russell - it's all in the rhythm. Yes, it's fun to ornament, but get the rhythm down first.
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by kate-dowling
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Precisely my point. The cuts and rolls are an important part of the music - but it's just as important to give the lift or swing to the music. And on a fiddle that's done with the bow-hand...
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by Presumin Ed
Re: How important is ornamentation?
There was a guy at last night's session playing super-stacatto fiddle, all single bows, no ornaments, as if he were bouncing along in the back of a pick-up truck. Sounded strange to my ears (to say the least) but as whenever another instrument joined in (didn't often happen, as it was next to impossible to recognize the tunes) it sounded kind of... wicked. Really cool. So I take back everything I said about "playing things properly". It's best to keep an open mind.
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How important is ornamentation?
I just received my worldtrad.org WFO(vol1) cd's and, reading the liner notes, found the following gem, which I think should nicely close the subject (and would have answered my original question had I waited the 2 days for shipping before posting my question), and I quote:
"It could be argued that the central concern of Irish music is rhythm, either how you make it or how you don't. The majority of what is called ornamentation and is seen to characterize traditional Irish music are rhythmical devices. Articulation techniques are chosen according to the amount and type of emphasis they afford, and phrases are broken or remade. The tone and timbre of the instrument are often dictated by the use of rhythmical devices such as pushing with the diaphragm, and, the ultimate concern of many 'trad' fluters, volume, or perhaps more accurately the volume of the rhythm they can make."
'nuff said.
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Good luck!
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by slainte
Re: How important is ornamentation?
Hey FyfferGuy,
I'm a fifer who lives in RI also...I'm pretty much in the same situation you are. I started playing flute, and I was tonguing a lot and I wasn't exactly sure how to use the ornamentation. I've been working my way through Grey Larsen's book, and it tells you how to play, and how to use each type of ornament. My suggestion is, when you get the book, work your way from the begining to the end, practicing each excersise and learning each tune on the way, then go back and work the stuff that you learned into the tunes that you already know
# Posted on February 17th 2005 by Fifer1
Re: How important is ornamentation?
kerri - haha, i had seen you draw back the sincerity of your position earlier, i just had to 'splain myself.
# Posted on February 17th 2005 by daiv
Re: How important is ornamentation?
>'nuff said.
But I wanted to say some more!
That really is a great answer to the question. I guess it's sort of like blues harmonica. Just playing the tune without all the note bending, overblowing and tone shaping would not sound like blues.
# Posted on February 17th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: How important is ornamentation?
"There was a guy at last night's session playing super-stacatto fiddle, all single bows, no ornaments. . . it was next to impossible to recognize the tunes"
I'd say he was playing with rather extreme ornamentaion then, just in a manner that you aren't used to thinking of as "ornamentation," because it lacked a melodic componant.
"So I take back everything I said about "playing things properly"."
Ahhhhh, if only we were issued rule books at birth, and they worked.
KFG
# Posted on February 17th 2005 by KFG