The Session >> Discussions >> We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Comments
We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
What distinguishes a good trad musician from a mediocre one? There are players who can play all the right notes to a tune, in the right order and rhythm; who can play reasonably competently and reasonably fast, but who don't excite or inspire. There are others who play with something added, something that makes you listen and want to hear more. This quality is known variously as oomph, swing, balls, drive, a kick, a lash, authority, passion. I call it soul.
It's probably true that, for a formally trained musician, Irish trad music is relatively easy to pick up from the sheet music. You can play the right notes in the right order at approximately the right tempo, but it may be difficult to reproduce an authentic roll or other ornamentaition.
How do you get soul?
It's not something you can pick up from the sheet music - it's not just about the pitch and tempo of the notes.
It is certainly not related to Irishness - I've met Irish people who have that mechanical sound.
It's not about how fast you are, how loud you are, or even how fluent you are, it's about your feeling for the music. If you don't feel the music, it won't reflect in your playing.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Thank you Jim.
Yes, do I want to dance to it seems to me an acceptable standard. Do I tap my feet, do I respond?
Since I first posted my message I've looked at previous entries and i notice this theme has been discussed a lot. And I thought I was saying something profound and original ...
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
The nyah or neagh or draiocht ...the magic that leaves you wanting more. I think it comes from a combination of working the nuances of the music, in tone, in timing, in letting the tune lead you (rather than the other way around), and being open to your own emotional and physical response, which gets fed back into your playing.
In other words, it takes some degree of technical competence, experience with the music, and a personal openness.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Oh for crying out loud!
Don't any of you play golf?
How many times have you weekend duffers been out and consistently hit 106... but the ONE thing that keeps you going back to hit a 103 the next time is that ONE shot that felt SO sweet - SO perfect... maybe an 8 iron on a 173 yard approach shot that landed 9 feet from the pin ... and then you promptly 2-putted for bogey... but it doesn't matter, because you'll ALWAYS have that one 8-iron shot from 173 yards away, and you're convinced it ought to be on all the sports highlights on television that night...
Well guess what - music and sessions and the FEELING you get from that one perfect moment during the 2nd of the 3 reel set where you are just ON IT... and it's SO good, so right ...
It's the same thing.
And thus, you go back to the next week's session ... wanting more.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I think feeling the music either comes naturally cause some people are special like that, or its something that becomes natural after brain washing yourself with hour upon hour upon hour of music. Loving the music always helps. By the way the sound track to the commitments is good. I should see the movie.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
HowsSheCutting - that's a top user name Are you (or your folks) from Connaught by any chance? And if anyone on this board wants to absorb a bit of Irish culture (well, Dublin culture, not the same thing, and ITM is Culchie music after all) they could do worse than watch The Commitments
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
P.S. If you don't know if you're a Culhie or not, take the online test at http://www.p45.net/omatics/culchie/ And check the Google-powered ads while you're there.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Welcome HSC!
This is something that comes up a lot when I'm teaching. Sometimes it's obvious that the player is feeling a lot of emotional connection to the tune, but you can't hear it. And quite often they don't realise that you can't hear it. Making your audience feel something close to what you are feeling when you play is the highest form of musicianship, IMO.
How do you get there? Good question. I believe it's a combination of learning the nuts and bolts of expression and being open enough to really express yourself. Many players who don't have great technique according to the "rules" still understand a lot about expression. Some have great technique but little expression.
Neither of these has anything to do with "authenticity" within a style, of course. I have heard some tremendously expressive playing of Irish music that didn't sound at all Irish. Equally I have heard plently of perfectly danceable Irish music that is still pretty wooden. And I don't think having the rolls and ornamentation right give you soul, either.
I'm still not entirely clear whether your question is about sounding authentic or being expressive, but what the heck.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Dunno HSC. You've either got it or you haven't.
They tell me I've got it.
Yet I don't consider myself to be a particularly good player in a technical sense.
But I do like a good tune, and I play it the way I want to, not the way I think someone else wants it to be.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Hi Hsc.
I know exactly what you mean here...
There are some players who churn stuff out like robots...
Learn as many tunes as you can, play them all perfect, don't forget notes - but then hold on - after 20 jigs and 47 reels I'm finding it hard to differenciate the stuff....theres no fun and it all seems very repetitive...they start their tunes, and the other instruments follow them in in the same pattern - like clockwork...
I play with a piper, who is in my opinion really good to play with, because you always know exactly what tune he's playing, but coming around to it, when playing, he adds little colours and turns at unpredictable times it sounds different every time he plays it...I like this sometimes, cause if your feeling a certain way in the session, or wherever you are playing, its almost as if he'll bring this out and force you to feel it...I've seen the "robots" sit back and really begin to feel what he is playing (which is unusual - to sit one out...)tryin to figure out, how another musician, using the same notes turns etc, can get a MUCH better sound out of it.
I personally think one either has it or they dont....(but i also think it can be learned! as ive seen it!!!)
I think there is a fine line betwee being passionate about something, and being obsessive about something.....but a huge difference! This is something, I feel crops up alot in ITM between different players....and its a huge huge thing!
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
There's some rather technical stuff you can do to get the feeling from inside your gut out to your instrument in useful ways. It's worth learning your instrument and the techniques used to play it well enough to know how to do that.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Thats right Zina, you have to be able to drive the bus in order to make it go where you want.
Maybe this is related to the question of what you need in order to play in public - which is audacity more than skill. Chutzpah? Some people are so worried about sounding "right" that they won't play in public just in case they aren't "right".
Similarly, some people are afraid to put any expression into something because they fear being either "wrong" or ridiculed. I'm personally just not bothered too much. We've often talked here of the risks involved in trying to define the "correct" version of any tune in the traditional ethos. If somebody doesn't like my way of playing a particular tune, they have every right to say so, but that may not cause me to change my ways.
There - now I've thought of two things to start new threads and I can't decide which one to use today.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Dave, I get too excited to read a whole post(!)
Cast your shyness and modesty aside, take a deep snort of nutmeg, (sorry psooibly the wrong thread), and record a tune .....
Mark
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Back from work, I find it late to join but put some ideas.
I hate to say, but I was intensively listening to Lunasa at first, and of course got sick of the band's recordings quite soon. Then, I came across Mary MacNamara's solo recording to discover the greatness of old-fashioned traditional music. There is nothing acrobatic in her playing, but her love of music really shines through each track.
I want to improve ornamentation skills and put more drive and passion into my playing, but I'm also trying to learn how to express my love of diddly music from my favourite musicians.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I'd definitely work on drive and passion before attempting ornamentation - that should just come to you after a while, and isn't as effective as the other two...
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Forget drive and passion - it's hard to play ANYTHING from start to finish into a microphone in a kitchen type environment. Within any given three minutes one or more of the following WILL happen:
A train will go by
A cat will appear and start loudly demanding food
A hair from your moustache will spring erect and enter your nasal cavity, causing a fearsome tickling feeling that drives all thoughts of drive, passion from your mind
A phone will ring in the next room
Someone will march in and bellow "What are you doing?....ahhh - sorry!"
A random boy will crash in from the garden enquiring, "Has Elliott gone down the Village?"
The microphone will fall off the pile of books
Eventually, you will struggle through an uninterrupted set, only to discover that you's inadvertently switched the mic off after picking it up from the floor ....
Go on Dave!
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I think so definitely....(ONLY MY OPINION!!!!!)
Ornamentation, I think is a form of improvisation...I don't think when ornamenting tunes, the player does the same lick every time they play the tune(assuming they aren't in a band!!!)
However their drive and passion can be used in every tune and every thing they play - make sense?
I find - once someone has got "the feel" for the music - then the ornamentation is the next natural progression as opposed to the other way around....
When I'm playing the banjo there are a couple of things I like to do in certain keys, but generally I stick to the tune itself...
However on the zouk, its alot of ornamentation...and not just with the left hand - with the picking hand too, you can mix it up a little...
Ive come from an improvisational background in terms of music, and it was a natural thing for me to fiddle around in the keys of the tune - but my attitude turned to "if they are already beautiful tunes - whats the point" - so now I generally keep it to a minumum.
I think my feel developed over years of hearing (and for a few years actually detesting!!!!) ITM. - (not trying to sound cocky, saying I have a feel, but its something Ive worked as hard on if not harder then actually learning the tunes)
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Well, I guess it depends on where one is, Stefan -- my own teacher definitely started me on ornamentation first, because although I had plenty of drive and passion to spare, there was no way you could hear any of it through all of the caterwauling anyway...! So I suppose she probably figured that I might as well work on ornamentation until I got good enough that the drive and passion would get their metaphorical heads up through the bad technical problems. ;)
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Different Strokes eh!!
Thats cool - I guess if I ever got lessons it would have been the same alright - but in terms of learning from seeing/ hearing others, and teaching myself, the feel and grove and balls and soul and....bla bla bla.....was the most important!
I agree wholeheartedly on this...
"It depends on where one is"
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I have to say, Mark, the thought of you getting through all of that -- checking the train schedule, locking the cat in the closet in the front room, carefully brushing down your mustache, taking the phone off the hook, etc. -- has just cheered me up enormously.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I don't know about you guys, but I have all kind of passion, drive, oomph, nyah, hutzpah, and je ne sais quoi in my soul as far as music is concerned. I was born for it and it's my reason for being and I'm "feelin' it" all the time and bla bla bla. I still stink though. It isn't due to a lack of "having it", because I've "got it" in spades. I'm just downright lazy and I don't practice. When I do practice, it isn't productive. To borrow a concept from the astonishing GRY, music is unable to use me as a vessel because I leak.
I'm sure it would be the same story if I started golfing. I'd always be looking for that shortcut through the rough from the third hole to the seventeenth, getting lost in there twice as long as it would have taken me to just play through, and possibly being eaten by a bear.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
You may be a leaking vessel Kerri. I sank without trace years ago.
In fact, all that's left is the drive and passion, resonating around an empty musical husk. A hollow parody of a dream that long ago foundered on the cruel black rocks of heartless reality.
Do you really have bears on golf courses there? They could do with some here in England!
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
" music is unable to use me as a vessel because I leak." thanks, Kerri, dear. Now I have coffee all over my screen.
So do the leaky vessels still get credit for being passionate? Are we redemeed by our desire to soar with eagles, while we kick around the chicken yard with the bantys? (Not to mix metaphors, or anything....)
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Stefanpaz, you can hear for yourself how much I stink on Jim's Online Craic site. I truly do stink, or I do on that track. ( As it turns out, I can play the guitar quite a lot faster than I can play the fiddle.) I have less stinky recordings, but I thought that one was particularly fun, and I was inspired to post it after all those recent conversations about playing too fast and dropping notes.
There are some other tracks Jim's hosting you can get to through my own website that aren't ITM and don't stink quite as much, although you can still tell I'm lazy and sloppy.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Around here (down on the plains at the foot of the Rocky Mountains) you don't have to worry about bears on the courses. Not usually, anyway. No, around here it's the snakes. Oh, snakes and lightning. Well, snakes and lightning and the occasional enraged elk. And the enraged golfers, of course, but that's standard on a golf course anywhere.
when I waffle on - the feel im talkin about is pretty much evident as much as it can be here - tasteful, experimental,nicely mixed, paced recordings...great stuff!
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Atually, I just remember gry's eloquent soliloquy about how music uses us as its vessel got deleted, so I'm using an inside reference to something only I and a chosen few get to remember.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
i do no but ill tell u one thing - ive been looking at my attendance to this site recently and im beginning to think
(a) i need a change of job.....i cant handle staring in front of a computer at a mustard site all day-i wonder could he make it pink?
(b)im a loser thats too much into "culchie" music
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
My twopence:
Deep down, I know I've "got it". But I can't always "get it out" all the time. Those times when I really can, I'm usually alone - like when you sink the 8 on the break once in your life, and no one saw you do it (billiards reference for those not in the know).
I'm a long-time ITM appreciator, but a very recent player (had my flute for 2 weeks). I play fife (see user-name), and there are times when I'm wailin' away, that all sense of time and space have left me, and I feel -- as Kerri/GRY have put it -- as only a vessel through which music is poured.
That is indeed *IT*.
When you really know -- and feel -- a tune, the best thing to do when you're playing - for yourself , or others - is to *not* think about what you're doing. Your finger know it. You've played it (hopefully) hundreds, maybe thousands of times before. Let them remember the tune.
There are those times when you f**k up, for no apparent reason, and you realize it's because you were thinking too hard about it. If you just shut up that darned left brain, and listen, and feel it instead, it just pours out.
Case in point: Last night, I attended my second session *EVER*. The normal leaders were not there due a stinky snowstorm. Present were a mediocre bodran player and a standup bass player (who may have been better had he been soberer). I found myself as impromptu session leader (since the barkeep gave me a free Guinness, I had no choice but to play anyway). I know only a few tunes well enough to play without reading, and those I can play by reading, I *think* about too much to pull off well, but there were moments last night (recall, I've had my flute for *two weeks*) when I really had it. I pulled off a waltz that brought tears to my own eyes (coulda been the smoke), flew through McLeod's faster than I thought I could (I know faster is not always better, but it was fun as hell), and the craic was indeed grand enough even for the dart-playing punters in the place.
My point (yes there is one): Shut up and play. Stop intellectualizing. Play like no one's listening. Music comes from - but mostly through - you.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Whoa! If anybody read the first few sentences of Guy's post out of context they might think this was a very different sort of forum indeed.
Sorry Guy, couldn't resist! There is a lot of truth in what you say about thinking too much - it's just I slipped into the gutter for a moment there. And I'm not talking billiards...
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
And it's obviously time to clean those gutters out, too, kris...
KFG, I never worry about golf, because I don't play the game, and so am never on golf courses. I never have to worry about anything "amoungst" those things, either -- ain't you never heard a dat dere "colloquial English", boy? (Or girl, I suppose, have we ever found out what's inside your jeans?)
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
What, you have them thar golf course only lions and tigers and bears (Oh my!) out your way? You'll have to send some back east. Ours go wherever they damn please.
Anyway, it was just a Monty Python joke. Don't tell me a girl like you is so culturally deprived as to not know the reference.
"(Or girl, I suppose, have we ever found out what's inside your jeans?)"
Oh man, I haven't been fed a "straight line" like that in ages. No , that's not a flute in my pocket. Good to see you.
Anyway, when asked what the "G" stood for I casually dropped what the "K" stood for. Us scratchy old timers have a funny sense of humor like that. If you really cared about me you would have caught that. I'm going to go off in a huff now.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
LOL -- well, I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but really, I *don't* spend all my waking moments here online, and I don't always go and read everything I missed! Really. I don't. does that mean that I have to go a-looking now? *sigh* Maybe in a bit, I've got work that has to get done if I'm to get any sleep at all tonight.
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
This is really late in the game for this thread but I have to agree with kerri's point way up at the top... feeling the music and playing it so it sounds like you're feeling the music are two distinctly different things. I used to think I had a good feel for this stuff until I started recording and listening back... most times I hate what I hear. The slower stuff seems to be the stuff I can actually stomach myself playing. So for me, the sould thing hasn't quite hit my fingers yet...
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Here is something that I have experienced a pretty fair number of times, and also know other musicians who have experienced it:
Big disconnect between performer and audience experience. Sure, lots of times the audience and performer are together in their experience of music. But I have had plenty of times where I thought my playing was off and had listeners tell me I sounded great. Also vice versa - I thought I played well but seemed to get no response from the audience. Now maybe I sound bad all the time and the audience in the first case above was just trying to make me feel better......but I don't think so, because: 1) too many repeat gigs and 2) have heard this from others a lot, including well know concert artists. And we all know that the same performance can sometimes inspire one person a lot, while his/her neighbor is totally bored or even irritated.
Back when I was gigging, the one thing that seemed to have the biggest audience impact was wearing a long-haired wig and a costume, which I started doing after receiving a call to play music on a replica of the Santa Maria for a reception for a group of Polish visitors.
So, perhaps we often think we know inspired music, but I think that sometimes our own subjective mood is a big part of the equation of how "inspirational" or "soulful" a performance is.
We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
What distinguishes a good trad musician from a mediocre one? There are players who can play all the right notes to a tune, in the right order and rhythm; who can play reasonably competently and reasonably fast, but who don't excite or inspire. There are others who play with something added, something that makes you listen and want to hear more. This quality is known variously as oomph, swing, balls, drive, a kick, a lash, authority, passion. I call it soul.
It's probably true that, for a formally trained musician, Irish trad music is relatively easy to pick up from the sheet music. You can play the right notes in the right order at approximately the right tempo, but it may be difficult to reproduce an authentic roll or other ornamentaition.
How do you get soul?
It's not something you can pick up from the sheet music - it's not just about the pitch and tempo of the notes.
It is certainly not related to Irishness - I've met Irish people who have that mechanical sound.
It's not about how fast you are, how loud you are, or even how fluent you are, it's about your feeling for the music. If you don't feel the music, it won't reflect in your playing.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by howsshecutting
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
What if I *do* feel the music, but it doesn't reflect in my playing?
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
If you feel, how can it not reflect?
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by howsshecutting
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
"I's black and I'm proud"l
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I is actually black, as it goes, and I'm extremely proud
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by howsshecutting
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Nice goin' Micheal. And his first post, too.
Feelin' it doesn't necessarily always equate to doin' a good job of it. Trust me, I know.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
i really still have to see this movie...
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Bard
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Careful Jim, remember now -- you're only on a lap-top with a slow connection.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Thank you Jim.
Yes, do I want to dance to it seems to me an acceptable standard. Do I tap my feet, do I respond?
Since I first posted my message I've looked at previous entries and i notice this theme has been discussed a lot. And I thought I was saying something profound and original ...
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by howsshecutting
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
The nyah or neagh or draiocht ...the magic that leaves you wanting more. I think it comes from a combination of working the nuances of the music, in tone, in timing, in letting the tune lead you (rather than the other way around), and being open to your own emotional and physical response, which gets fed back into your playing.
In other words, it takes some degree of technical competence, experience with the music, and a personal openness.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Oh for crying out loud!
Don't any of you play golf?
How many times have you weekend duffers been out and consistently hit 106... but the ONE thing that keeps you going back to hit a 103 the next time is that ONE shot that felt SO sweet - SO perfect... maybe an 8 iron on a 173 yard approach shot that landed 9 feet from the pin ... and then you promptly 2-putted for bogey... but it doesn't matter, because you'll ALWAYS have that one 8-iron shot from 173 yards away, and you're convinced it ought to be on all the sports highlights on television that night...
Well guess what - music and sessions and the FEELING you get from that one perfect moment during the 2nd of the 3 reel set where you are just ON IT... and it's SO good, so right ...
It's the same thing.
And thus, you go back to the next week's session ... wanting more.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by brianc
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
... sounds like maybe I need to take up golf and give up the fiddle...
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I think feeling the music either comes naturally cause some people are special like that, or its something that becomes natural after brain washing yourself with hour upon hour upon hour of music. Loving the music always helps. By the way the sound track to the commitments is good. I should see the movie.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by banana512
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
HowsSheCutting - that's a top user name
Are you (or your folks) from Connaught by any chance? And if anyone on this board wants to absorb a bit of Irish culture (well, Dublin culture, not the same thing, and ITM is Culchie music after all) they could do worse than watch The Commitments 
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Just a person
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
P.S. If you don't know if you're a Culhie or not, take the online test at http://www.p45.net/omatics/culchie/ And check the Google-powered ads while you're there.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Just a person
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Rats
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Just a person
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Can't type. Still drunk from late session.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Just a person
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Welcome HSC!
This is something that comes up a lot when I'm teaching. Sometimes it's obvious that the player is feeling a lot of emotional connection to the tune, but you can't hear it. And quite often they don't realise that you can't hear it. Making your audience feel something close to what you are feeling when you play is the highest form of musicianship, IMO.
How do you get there? Good question. I believe it's a combination of learning the nuts and bolts of expression and being open enough to really express yourself. Many players who don't have great technique according to the "rules" still understand a lot about expression. Some have great technique but little expression.
Neither of these has anything to do with "authenticity" within a style, of course. I have heard some tremendously expressive playing of Irish music that didn't sound at all Irish. Equally I have heard plently of perfectly danceable Irish music that is still pretty wooden. And I don't think having the rolls and ornamentation right give you soul, either.
I'm still not entirely clear whether your question is about sounding authentic or being expressive, but what the heck.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by kris
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Dunno HSC. You've either got it or you haven't.
They tell me I've got it.
Yet I don't consider myself to be a particularly good player in a technical sense.
But I do like a good tune, and I play it the way I want to, not the way I think someone else wants it to be.
Maybe that's it.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Hi Hsc.
I know exactly what you mean here...
There are some players who churn stuff out like robots...
Learn as many tunes as you can, play them all perfect, don't forget notes - but then hold on - after 20 jigs and 47 reels I'm finding it hard to differenciate the stuff....theres no fun and it all seems very repetitive...they start their tunes, and the other instruments follow them in in the same pattern - like clockwork...
I play with a piper, who is in my opinion really good to play with, because you always know exactly what tune he's playing, but coming around to it, when playing, he adds little colours and turns at unpredictable times it sounds different every time he plays it...I like this sometimes, cause if your feeling a certain way in the session, or wherever you are playing, its almost as if he'll bring this out and force you to feel it...I've seen the "robots" sit back and really begin to feel what he is playing (which is unusual - to sit one out...)tryin to figure out, how another musician, using the same notes turns etc, can get a MUCH better sound out of it.
I personally think one either has it or they dont....(but i also think it can be learned! as ive seen it!!!)
I think there is a fine line betwee being passionate about something, and being obsessive about something.....but a huge difference! This is something, I feel crops up alot in ITM between different players....and its a huge huge thing!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
There's some rather technical stuff you can do to get the feeling from inside your gut out to your instrument in useful ways. It's worth learning your instrument and the techniques used to play it well enough to know how to do that.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
"...oomph, swing, balls, drive, a kick, a lash, authority, passion. I call it soul....
...It's not something you can pick up from the sheet music."
Sure you can - just write in "apassionato" or "con umfo" or some such like.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Thats right Zina, you have to be able to drive the bus in order to make it go where you want.
Maybe this is related to the question of what you need in order to play in public - which is audacity more than skill. Chutzpah? Some people are so worried about sounding "right" that they won't play in public just in case they aren't "right".
Similarly, some people are afraid to put any expression into something because they fear being either "wrong" or ridiculed. I'm personally just not bothered too much. We've often talked here of the risks involved in trying to define the "correct" version of any tune in the traditional ethos. If somebody doesn't like my way of playing a particular tune, they have every right to say so, but that may not cause me to change my ways.
There - now I've thought of two things to start new threads and I can't decide which one to use today.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
What the hell, Dave, just take over another thread. ;) OKAY. I'm going back to work now. Really. I am.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
P.S.
"Con umfo" -- hahahahaha!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
UMFISSIMO
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Come on Dave - If you've 'got it' - stick it up on Jim's Mighty Craic site so's we can hear it!
Brian - playing music is akin to golf?
That's a horrible thing to say...
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Ottery
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Mark
You must read all the post, not just the first couple of lines:
"Yet I don't consider myself to be a particularly good player. . ."
too shy and modest to record.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
God hates golf
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Dave, I get too excited to read a whole post(!)
Cast your shyness and modesty aside, take a deep snort of nutmeg, (sorry psooibly the wrong thread), and record a tune .....
Mark
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Ottery
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
No
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Oh, look, he's actually blushing. ;-]
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Michele Sims
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Oh, let's annoy him by pleading with him.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Back from work, I find it late to join but put some ideas.
I hate to say, but I was intensively listening to Lunasa at first, and of course got sick of the band's recordings quite soon. Then, I came across Mary MacNamara's solo recording to discover the greatness of old-fashioned traditional music. There is nothing acrobatic in her playing, but her love of music really shines through each track.
I want to improve ornamentation skills and put more drive and passion into my playing, but I'm also trying to learn how to express my love of diddly music from my favourite musicians.
Yeah, it's hard to do it before a microphone.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by slainte
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I'd definitely work on drive and passion before attempting ornamentation - that should just come to you after a while, and isn't as effective as the other two...
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Really? I think I'm leaning towards the other way round these days, Stefan!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Forget drive and passion - it's hard to play ANYTHING from start to finish into a microphone in a kitchen type environment. Within any given three minutes one or more of the following WILL happen:
A train will go by
A cat will appear and start loudly demanding food
A hair from your moustache will spring erect and enter your nasal cavity, causing a fearsome tickling feeling that drives all thoughts of drive, passion from your mind
A phone will ring in the next room
Someone will march in and bellow "What are you doing?....ahhh - sorry!"
A random boy will crash in from the garden enquiring, "Has Elliott gone down the Village?"
The microphone will fall off the pile of books
Eventually, you will struggle through an uninterrupted set, only to discover that you's inadvertently switched the mic off after picking it up from the floor ....
Go on Dave!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Ottery
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Our love affair with music is always interrupted, especially at home.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by slainte
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I think so definitely....(ONLY MY OPINION!!!!!)
Ornamentation, I think is a form of improvisation...I don't think when ornamenting tunes, the player does the same lick every time they play the tune(assuming they aren't in a band!!!)
However their drive and passion can be used in every tune and every thing they play - make sense?
I find - once someone has got "the feel" for the music - then the ornamentation is the next natural progression as opposed to the other way around....
When I'm playing the banjo there are a couple of things I like to do in certain keys, but generally I stick to the tune itself...
However on the zouk, its alot of ornamentation...and not just with the left hand - with the picking hand too, you can mix it up a little...
Ive come from an improvisational background in terms of music, and it was a natural thing for me to fiddle around in the keys of the tune - but my attitude turned to "if they are already beautiful tunes - whats the point" - so now I generally keep it to a minumum.
I think my feel developed over years of hearing (and for a few years actually detesting!!!!) ITM. - (not trying to sound cocky, saying I have a feel, but its something Ive worked as hard on if not harder then actually learning the tunes)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Well, I guess it depends on where one is, Stefan -- my own teacher definitely started me on ornamentation first, because although I had plenty of drive and passion to spare, there was no way you could hear any of it through all of the caterwauling anyway...! So I suppose she probably figured that I might as well work on ornamentation until I got good enough that the drive and passion would get their metaphorical heads up through the bad technical problems. ;)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Different Strokes eh!!
Thats cool - I guess if I ever got lessons it would have been the same alright - but in terms of learning from seeing/ hearing others, and teaching myself, the feel and grove and balls and soul and....bla bla bla.....was the most important!
I agree wholeheartedly on this...
"It depends on where one is"
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I have to say, Mark, the thought of you getting through all of that -- checking the train schedule, locking the cat in the closet in the front room, carefully brushing down your mustache, taking the phone off the hook, etc. -- has just cheered me up enormously.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
God hates golf?
Bah!
God invented golf!
God invented the 1-iron to keep golfer 'on the edge'.
(and besides, only God can hit a 1-iron).
1-irons are to golf as uilleann pipes are to music.
There's your connection.... golf and music.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by brianc
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Scots invented golf and diddly music.
Not sure but I think we should learn to love/play the music gently before starting to love/play it passionately. Techniques will follow naturally.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by slainte
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Nae.
GOD invented Scots and told them to invent golf.
;^)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by brianc
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Well, I can see that you and Robbie Hannan are going to have a fine old time off -topic, BrianC! ;)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Passionately doesnt mean techno trad remixes slainte!!!!
it can be gentle too! ; )
but i see what your saying!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Ye Wouldnae be Scottish by any chance, Brian,would you? there's precious little in your profile to tell u....s
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Ottery
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I don't know about you guys, but I have all kind of passion, drive, oomph, nyah, hutzpah, and je ne sais quoi in my soul as far as music is concerned. I was born for it and it's my reason for being and I'm "feelin' it" all the time and bla bla bla. I still stink though. It isn't due to a lack of "having it", because I've "got it" in spades. I'm just downright lazy and I don't practice. When I do practice, it isn't productive. To borrow a concept from the astonishing GRY, music is unable to use me as a vessel because I leak.
I'm sure it would be the same story if I started golfing. I'd always be looking for that shortcut through the rough from the third hole to the seventeenth, getting lost in there twice as long as it would have taken me to just play through, and possibly being eaten by a bear.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
I doubt you stink Kerry!
If you have it in Spades....Then its not possible....
I think alot of people are getting it mixed up here...(or probably just me!) - anf the fact GRY was mentioned has scared me - Im gone
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
"music is unable to use me as a vessel because I leak." -- LOL! Now THAT's a good one, Ker... hehehehe
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
You may be a leaking vessel Kerri. I sank without trace years ago.
In fact, all that's left is the drive and passion, resonating around an empty musical husk. A hollow parody of a dream that long ago foundered on the cruel black rocks of heartless reality.
Do you really have bears on golf courses there? They could do with some here in England!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Ottery
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
" music is unable to use me as a vessel because I leak." thanks, Kerri, dear. Now I have coffee all over my screen.
So do the leaky vessels still get credit for being passionate? Are we redemeed by our desire to soar with eagles, while we kick around the chicken yard with the bantys? (Not to mix metaphors, or anything....)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Michele Sims
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Mark, I am mired in the Slough of Despond, (It's a hazard on the 8th hole of Big Meadow Golf Course just down the road....)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Michele Sims
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Stefanpaz, you can hear for yourself how much I stink on Jim's Online Craic site. I truly do stink, or I do on that track. ( As it turns out, I can play the guitar quite a lot faster than I can play the fiddle.) I have less stinky recordings, but I thought that one was particularly fun, and I was inspired to post it after all those recent conversations about playing too fast and dropping notes.
There are some other tracks Jim's hosting you can get to through my own website that aren't ITM and don't stink quite as much, although you can still tell I'm lazy and sloppy.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Around here (down on the plains at the foot of the Rocky Mountains) you don't have to worry about bears on the courses. Not usually, anyway. No, around here it's the snakes. Oh, snakes and lightning. Well, snakes and lightning and the occasional enraged elk. And the enraged golfers, of course, but that's standard on a golf course anywhere.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
ok GRY - oops I mean Kerry!!
Sounds like your more modest then Sloppy, I think it sounds good - fair play to you!
I'm in the process of getting some video parts down for jims site...though the quality is pretty crap - might just record them at home!!
If you like guitar -
have you heard Matts files - he posted on my site?
They've inspired me to get off my fatt a** an start using cubase again....
www.stefanpaz.com/matt/reel.mp3
www.stefanpaz.com/matt/Jig.mp3
www.stefanpaz.com/matt/Knave.mp3
when I waffle on - the feel im talkin about is pretty much evident as much as it can be here - tasteful, experimental,nicely mixed, paced recordings...great stuff!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Definitely - Matt has so much of "it" "it"'s coming out his ears, but I'll bet he practices quite a lot, too. Can't wait for the album.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Atually, I just remember gry's eloquent soliloquy about how music uses us as its vessel got deleted, so I'm using an inside reference to something only I and a chosen few get to remember.
This is my tongue> D)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Matt's the It Boy.
Chosen few. Ha. How were we chosen, d'you think?
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
i do no but ill tell u one thing - ive been looking at my attendance to this site recently and im beginning to think
(a) i need a change of job.....i cant handle staring in front of a computer at a mustard site all day-i wonder could he make it pink?
(b)im a loser thats too much into "culchie" music
Im going home
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
"No, around here it's the snakes. . ."
Ok, *amoungst* the things you have to worry about are . . .
Look, why don't you just come in again?
KFG
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by KFG
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
My twopence:
Deep down, I know I've "got it". But I can't always "get it out" all the time. Those times when I really can, I'm usually alone - like when you sink the 8 on the break once in your life, and no one saw you do it (billiards reference for those not in the know).
I'm a long-time ITM appreciator, but a very recent player (had my flute for 2 weeks). I play fife (see user-name), and there are times when I'm wailin' away, that all sense of time and space have left me, and I feel -- as Kerri/GRY have put it -- as only a vessel through which music is poured.
That is indeed *IT*.
When you really know -- and feel -- a tune, the best thing to do when you're playing - for yourself , or others - is to *not* think about what you're doing. Your finger know it. You've played it (hopefully) hundreds, maybe thousands of times before. Let them remember the tune.
There are those times when you f**k up, for no apparent reason, and you realize it's because you were thinking too hard about it. If you just shut up that darned left brain, and listen, and feel it instead, it just pours out.
Case in point: Last night, I attended my second session *EVER*. The normal leaders were not there due a stinky snowstorm. Present were a mediocre bodran player and a standup bass player (who may have been better had he been soberer). I found myself as impromptu session leader (since the barkeep gave me a free Guinness, I had no choice but to play anyway). I know only a few tunes well enough to play without reading, and those I can play by reading, I *think* about too much to pull off well, but there were moments last night (recall, I've had my flute for *two weeks*) when I really had it. I pulled off a waltz that brought tears to my own eyes (coulda been the smoke), flew through McLeod's faster than I thought I could (I know faster is not always better, but it was fun as hell), and the craic was indeed grand enough even for the dart-playing punters in the place.
My point (yes there is one): Shut up and play. Stop intellectualizing. Play like no one's listening. Music comes from - but mostly through - you.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Whoa! If anybody read the first few sentences of Guy's post out of context they might think this was a very different sort of forum indeed.
Sorry Guy, couldn't resist! There is a lot of truth in what you say about thinking too much - it's just I slipped into the gutter for a moment there. And I'm not talking billiards...
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by kris
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
And it's obviously time to clean those gutters out, too, kris...
KFG, I never worry about golf, because I don't play the game, and so am never on golf courses. I never have to worry about anything "amoungst" those things, either -- ain't you never heard a dat dere "colloquial English", boy? (Or girl, I suppose, have we ever found out what's inside your jeans?)
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
What, you have them thar golf course only lions and tigers and bears (Oh my!) out your way? You'll have to send some back east. Ours go wherever they damn please.
Anyway, it was just a Monty Python joke. Don't tell me a girl like you is so culturally deprived as to not know the reference.
"(Or girl, I suppose, have we ever found out what's inside your jeans?)"
Oh man, I haven't been fed a "straight line" like that in ages. No , that's not a flute in my pocket. Good to see you.
Anyway, when asked what the "G" stood for I casually dropped what the "K" stood for. Us scratchy old timers have a funny sense of humor like that. If you really cared about me you would have caught that. I'm going to go off in a huff now.
Actually, in about a minute and a huff.
KFG
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by KFG
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
LOL -- well, I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but really, I *don't* spend all my waking moments here online, and I don't always go and read everything I missed! Really. I don't. does that mean that I have to go a-looking now? *sigh* Maybe in a bit, I've got work that has to get done if I'm to get any sleep at all tonight.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Well, I don't know any international men of mystery who are women, But I still don't know what's in his jeans...
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Possibly pocket fluff?
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
KFG
Man Of Mystery?
Kentucky Fried GRY?
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Ottery
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Air mostly. Just don't ask me what's under me kilt.
KFG
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by KFG
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
More air? ;)
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Yeah, mostly. : )
KFG
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by KFG
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
This is really late in the game for this thread but I have to agree with kerri's point way up at the top... feeling the music and playing it so it sounds like you're feeling the music are two distinctly different things. I used to think I had a good feel for this stuff until I started recording and listening back... most times I hate what I hear. The slower stuff seems to be the stuff I can actually stomach myself playing. So for me, the sould thing hasn't quite hit my fingers yet...
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by c_ya
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
the 'soul thing' , not the 'sould' thing that is
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by c_ya
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
So much has happened on this thread since I left the office last evening. I almost never log on at home.
GOD HATES GOLF
The reasoning is like this:
Lightning strikes golfers more than any other identifiable sector of the population.
Who strikes people with lightning - God.
Therefore, even if god doesn't hate golf, he certainly has something against those who play it.
I tried golf in my teens, but I repented.
;o)
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Thank you Mike, I love being agreed with.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
Here is something that I have experienced a pretty fair number of times, and also know other musicians who have experienced it:
Big disconnect between performer and audience experience. Sure, lots of times the audience and performer are together in their experience of music. But I have had plenty of times where I thought my playing was off and had listeners tell me I sounded great. Also vice versa - I thought I played well but seemed to get no response from the audience. Now maybe I sound bad all the time and the audience in the first case above was just trying to make me feel better......but I don't think so, because: 1) too many repeat gigs and 2) have heard this from others a lot, including well know concert artists. And we all know that the same performance can sometimes inspire one person a lot, while his/her neighbor is totally bored or even irritated.
Back when I was gigging, the one thing that seemed to have the biggest audience impact was wearing a long-haired wig and a costume, which I started doing after receiving a call to play music on a replica of the Santa Maria for a reception for a group of Polish visitors.
So, perhaps we often think we know inspired music, but I think that sometimes our own subjective mood is a big part of the equation of how "inspirational" or "soulful" a performance is.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by ceciltguitar
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
"God hates golf"....
Wrong again.
God loves golf so much that He uses the lightning strikes to speed up the pace of play!
What God doesn't enjoy is a 5-hour round!
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by brianc
Re: We don't do rock salmon, we've only got soul (from The Commitments)
the question is, will the Big Guy let you play through?
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Zina Lee