I would like to relay a recent experience/observation and open it to comments please. I apologize in advance if this subject has been discussed in the past.
As some of you may have noticed, I’m new to Irish session. I’ve played in 3 so far, to be exact. After each session I find myself thinking hard about it and trying to draw lessons. They are plentiful.
At the first opportunity to lead a set, I played The Rambling Pitchfork as one of the tunes. To my surprise (horror?....) the other musicians sat there with an interested but puzzled look on their faces, trying to figure out what tune I was playing. I remember feeling inside “what’s the problem here? I know I’m playing this tune (more or less ) correctly because I’ve been practicing it. Guys….don’t leave me hanging here…”
So – I now know what happened. I learned the Rambling Pitchfork from the Mel Bay book “Fiddle Tunes and Irish Music for Mandolin”. It turns out that it is a little different from what (I guess) is commonly played at sessions. I checked here in the Tunes section, as well as in other sources and, indeed, it’s not *exactly* the same. It’s not entirely different, and my ears certainly associate both as the same basic tune. However, the beginning line is not *exactly* the same. I come from a jazz and other American traditions, where it’s not only common, but desired, for a musician to play tunes a little differently each time. Musicians take pride in it. To my ears, this is what the author notated in the book – a creative variation of the “standard” tune.
But – this is not what’s expected at the session….I guess. And it’s FINE but I would like to get some confirmation and to understand a little more of the culture, if there is any degree of uniformity…
By the way, I did go back another time and played the “expected” version and everyone joined in just fine so I’m assimilating and I have no problem with this.
Part of my confusion if this –I see variations in books like this one, the Simon Mayor book and others. I hear variations on Irish Traditional CD’s where there is one soloist and perhaps some backup instruments. A good example is the excellent Paddy Keenan CD “Poirt an Phiobaire” and many others. To my ears this is a positive aspect of musicianship and a creative part of the experience.
Are you still with me?
Here comes the question….what happens at the session? Do people really strive to play (if there is any way to agree) the *exact* same lines? If this is the case, then do you reserve your variations to when you are playing in very small circles or situations? If not, does each person play their own slight variation at the session and the overall sound is the “sonic average”?
I hope I’m communicating this clearly because I’m appalled by the number of words when I look up….
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Of course we've talked about it before, Avi, and you'll probably want to go a-looking in the archives so you don't miss out on any points of view or novel ways of thinking about it, but no reason why we can't get more input on it.
As to variations: I generally try to think of there being a difference between a "setting" and a "variation". It's a little artificial, and won't be the same from person to person, but I tend to think of "settings" as having implied chords that are different between the settings, whereas "variations" tend to use the same chords between the different versions.
Good Irish players will often try to change even one or two notes every time they play the tune, but it's also quite accepted (although not thought of as highly a thing as the foregoing) to play the tune the same way through every time.
In my band, we "double" (ie: play the exact same thing including variations) a fair amount, but you never expect that out at sessions, and in some ways and circles it's even frowned upon, as it smacks of rehearsal and formal band playing rather than the spontaneous music expected at sessions.
As to settings of tunes not getting played as a group in sessions when the rest can't figure it out, it'll depend on a lot of different factors. These could include:
1) There's a lot of tunes that start the same, and it's not unusual to start playing along with someone only to discover on the B part that they're actually playing a different tune, and you have to stop playing because you don't have it -- egg on the face!
2) Though probably not the case here, I've heard tunes so badly mangled that no one, not even the most expert player, figured out what tune it *was* they were playing -- although I've quite often seen the expert players picking up and playing the tune, nodding encouragement and smiles at the beginner who started it, and afterward asking what the tune was.
3) If a player is really good, often even if they DO know the tune, the other players won't play, in order to pay homage to a really nice playing of a tune or so.
4) What a musician plays on their records may have no earthly resemblance to how they play at sessions, down to and including their settings of a tune. Records are made for solo playing, sessions aren't.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Avi, the other musicians were being respectful. A lot of the time those things that look like subtle variations are actually completely different tunes. And yes, they are striving to play exactly the same melody as the other players, or intentionally play variations that they know do not conflict with the standard version.
You should not be shy to play alone, or wonder why no-one joins you when you do. If you aren't ready to solo it out and the thought of others not joining horrifies, disappoints, or annoys you, you probably shouldn't be starting tunes. Rather, if you want to play *with* people, exclusively, you ought to be learning their repertoire and following them instead of taking the plunge into leadership.
What you're talking about is common, so you have lots of company. If I had a dime for every time I heard someone who is new to sessions complain that nobody is bothering to learn their tunes or play with them when they try to lead a set I could buy a whole Starbucks franchise. Or at least a really big coffee.
The usual explanations are:
You are playing a variation nobody knows.
You are playing a tune nobody knows.
You are playing in the "wrong" key.
You are playing at a bizarre tempo.
You are playing with terrible rhythm.
You are just diong an outright miserable job of it and the other musicians are politely waiting for you to stop so the session can continue.
OK, well, I should have said "the player in question" instead of "you" cuz it sounds like I think you, personally, are guilty of all of the above offences. Which I don't. It sounds like it's a problem with your setting. My advice is; learn their tunes. Tape the session. You don't have to worry about people not playing with you if *you* are playing with *them*.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Oh yeah, Ker, we all know that you're a horrendous bully, mean to the core, in fact, I've been meaning to plead with Jeremy to punish you for making me cry....
Well, admittedly, you've made me cry with laughter a couple of times. ;)
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Zina - thank and let me pick at your statements a bit more....
When you say "Good Irish player swill often try to change even one or two notes..." then you wind up with several people playing slightly different lines simultaneously. Is this the case? Is the possible dissonance considered to be part of the overall accepted "sound"? When you have 4 fiddles and two accordions playing and each is making small changes, no one can really tell exactly what each one is doing, I would think, except themselves. So to me it seems like the chance to show your creative small variations is when you start the tune. Once "inside", it's a mesh of sound.
Also - you say "what a musician plays on their records may have no earthly resemblance to how they play at sessions...". Then how does this jive with the advice I hear so often of listening to records and learning tunes from them? Maybe three are known musicians who do record "session" versions of the tunes on their cd's?
If indeed the case may be that tunes can differ very slightly from one another, then I can understand the confusion when someone plays the line a little differently.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I'm into old-time fiddling more than irish fiddling, but from my experience it creates a really nice texture (and even unintentional harmonies at some points) when different players are playing the same tune. Everyone has their own little spin on the tune.
Once again I stress this is from my experience with old-time fiddlers. To put this into perspective, when I was first starting off on the fiddle, one of my friends, an older fellow, brought me along to a jam session with his old buddies. He told me just to bow along to get the rhythm even if I didn't know the notes (queitly of course)!
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Kerri,
No worries. I was not offended by anything you said. Your reasoning is fine. They were not listening to me in awe. I was playing the right tune, in the right key, and the right rhythm. The problem was clearly the variation. I have to say that the structure of the tune and the harmony was the same. Large portions of the lines were the same but they were not ALL the same. I'm trying to get myself "in tune" with this concept because my brain is trained to very naturally recognize a tune even if it's played different. Even if it's drastically different. This comes from 25 year of listening to Jazz and playing some too. I am starting to see that in this tradition different tunes can vary by small amounts from one another, and therefore we must be careful with changes.
I have no problem with playing a solo piece, if indeed I am presenting the others with something new and interesting. My bad feelings came out of the expectation that this was *such* a common tune. That's ok. I attribute some of it to me being new at this, early jitters etc. It will get better, I'm sure and I'll be playing at a session more or less weekly from now on.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Nathanael - I've listened to and played music in the Norman Blake,/Tony Rice kind style for years and they never play the same thing twice. Of course they take solos and relish in improvising variations. Old Time music can have this (I call it) tension when different lines are played at the same time and it's part of the Sound. This is part of what I'm asking here - is this also considered part of the Session Sound.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Some tunes played at sessions originate from "soloist's" recordings -- so it's not that simple. I will usually try to listen to other recorded examples and research tune databases to ferret out the most common setting of tunes I find on recordings. But the best source for tunes is from the session you want to play in regularly.
"He told me just to bow along to get the rhythm even if I didn't know the notes (quietly of course)"
Be careful with this advice, it is sometimes referred to as "noodling" in most ITM circles and isn't necessarily appreciated.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
"then you wind up with several people playing slightly different lines simultaneously. Is this the case? Is the possible dissonance considered to be part of the overall accepted "sound"?"
If the setting is the same even if the variations are different, most notes will work within the implied chord, so it's not as bad as it might sound. Part of the sound of the more or less traditional session is some honkers, though. I mean, it's only fairly recently that playing in tune became A Good Thing, you know. ;)
"Then how does this jive with the advice I hear so often of listening to records and learning tunes from them?"
I can see how this would be confusing. However, see the traditional vs. "traditional" thread for a bit of an inkling, or "listen" to some players go on about Lunasa or some of the more creatively-arranged bands. It's not uncommon for someone to come into a session all unknowing with a tune in some weird key that they learned off of a recording. If they're lucky, the other players (or even one or two of them) are good enough to know how to play the tune in a different key.
As Jack says above, though, it's the differences that make for an interesting time at a session, although admittedly that is truer for better players than it is for beginners and intermediate players.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Avi, a couple of points off of the main topic of variations. Be careful of what you assume to be "common". Commonality is often a local phenomenom.
Also, check your sources wisely and match them to the local players. Find out where they learned their music. Find out what sources they trust. Would any of your local players learn tunes out of the Mel Bay book?
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Jack - from most of the comments I've read about noodling in the past, I wouldn't dream of playing along in an Irish session without knowing the notes. I was just trying to demonstrate the, I guess you could say, more relaxed nature of old-time fiddling. I think those guys are all half deaf anyhow!
On a slightly different notion, though still related to the topic, are sessioners expected to play the location-specific setting/variation of a tune while visiting that location or is diversity embraced?
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Jode - points well takem. In fact, I stopped using this particular tunes book after my first session. It just so happens that I had used it prior to this Session Life and so that 's the version that came out of my fingers. To be honest, I am not getting consistent answers from the session musicians because they have varied backgrounds and learned tunes in many ways and in many places. It's only natural. I will however, think about recording the sessions and learning some of the tunes that way. At least I'll have more in common. I am finding that the John Walsh tune collection is fairly close to what we play and so I'll work with it for a while, in addition to the tunes here at thesession.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
"are sessioners expected to play the location-specific setting/variation of a tune while visiting that location or is diversity embraced?"
Depends on the session and its inmates. For instance, I learned "The Girl that Broke My Heart" from someone who plays it with a Bb in the first part. At Jack's session, for instance, in SF, they picked it right up and ran with it. At another session I played it at, one player actually refused to play it with the Bb even though they knew I was playing it with a Bb, and hit a dissonance every time, just because they thought it should be played with the Bnat. (After a couple times through, I gave in and played it 'their' way, even though I started the set and tune, for the sake of the overall music.)
Guess which session I think of as being more welcoming and friendly?
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Nath - jumping in there, I always bow to the local setting of the tune and stop playing mine if it interferes. If I can get their version on tape or even pick it up, I will learn it greedily. If I think the version I have is worthy of their attention, I might chat with one of the folks after the tune set and play a snippet. If it strikes them as interesting, they may ask one to play the tune a few times.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I must admit that I love improvising variations. I'm not talking about ripping up a tune and re-building it. I'm not talking about Charlie Parker taking How High the Moon and turning it into Donna Lee. I'm talking about small line variations that keep me and the listener interested in the tune even if I play it three times in a row This is what I tend to do when playing for myself or for friends. One of my challenges will be keeping things separate and remembering which version is the Session Version and which is not. That's my problem I guess. It's either this or give up the variations for a while (sigh...) until I've gotten a core set of session tunes deeply embedded in muscle memory.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Hi Avi - welcome to the wierd and wonderful world of sessions!
There are two reasons I don't go to lots of sessions - at least of the big free-for-all variety. One is fag smoke and the other is the topic of this thread.
I am not making a value judgement on all sessions based on this one challenging area, it just happens to be something that bugs me.
What's a "usual" or "session" setting of any given tune can vary wildly from one region/town/pub to the next. That I love. It's the tendancy to average everything out in any one particular (large) session that I don't enjoy.
As for the blank stares you got with your only slightly unusual setting: without meaning to be too negative - this may have been respect or puzzlement, but it may also have been a slight closing of ranks against a new setting of a familiar tune. It happens.
Your main goal seems to be to play/fit in to your local sessions (am I right?) - in which case a "when in Rome" approach is best, and a great way to learn. In future years you will look back and this core session will be part of your own personal tradition. You may carry settings learned there with you for the rest of your life.
Just remember: "This above all, to thine own self be true."
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I'm with you, avi. I love the variations. I'm starting to do them more and more. There's a trick to it though - you've got to be playing notes that are in pretty specific intervals from the "real" notes everybody else is play. Going way off on a tangent doesn't work - it has to be just a coupla notes here, coupla notes there, and they need to be thirds / fifths / octaves with *every* note the other folks are playing. This is just my personal opinion, (which really isn't worth much - I'm definitely not a reliable authority on this stuff) but wacky intervals and unexpected runs sound really dumb when everyone else is sticking to the basic tune. If what you're doing doesn't blend completely with what everybody else is doing you're going to look like a show-off, or like someone who doesn't actually know the tune to begin with.
As is often said on this site "there's nothing wrong with just playing the damn tune".
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
kris -
"Your main goal seems to be to play/fit in to your local sessions (am I right?)"
Only partially. My main goal is to find a context to express myself musically and otherwise. I like the idea of playing in a session and am investing time and energy in this direction. When approaching a new culture (nationality, religion, social group, club) I would never just barge in and try to do things *my* way right off the start. This is rude and disrespectful. I am trying to understand the tradition and learn the *language* and *customs* here. There has to be a certain amount of acceptance of me before anyone would be willing to entertain something unfamiliar - I think this is true in most cases. Therefore, I am first trying to integrate. I am sure that with time, and improved credibility, I would try to show unfamiliar tunes or versions of tunes but this is simply not appropriate at this time. At least this is my feeling and please correct me if you think I'm wrong. This is why I'm asking questions here and not making statements.
About the possibility of the other musicians "closing ranks" against a different version. I understand completely what you are saying but that's not the feeling that I got. Again - maybe I am not tuned in enough to catch the message but I'm reporting on what I feel as I understand body language. I'll keep an open mind about this concept as well
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
In order to make a tune sound "just right" in my view everybody has to play exactly the same notes as near as damm it at exactly the same time . . if you don't do that like others have said, the overall effect is muddled and discordant (have I spelt that right?), and the way to do that is practice with the same musicians for as long as it takes.Or go to a session and record what they are playing and go home and practice what you hear on the tape.
How would a classical orchestra sound if every musician had slightly different dots in front of them? a bloody mess.
Musicians can't play a tune "perfectly" together and its these miniscual variations that gives the tunes the "colour" that makes each session just that bit different from the last time you played together.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I've heard players who do variations successfully, but there was never any doubt that they really knew the tunes inside and out and could play them straight spot on at will. These people are usually coming up with perfectly executed variations that add a lot to the over-all sound quite nicely. That's one way of doing it. Another way is to do what was suggested above, and improvise variations much as a jazz musician might, or have worked out variations -- but this is a soloist's art. There's a danger in going down the variation/harmony road if you aren't so well versed you could play the tunes in your sleep. I know someone who has genius abilities at this sort of thing, but sometimes, when playing alone, they can't nail the actual tune. In other words -- it seems like so much time was spent in orbit that they lost touch with the actual tune. I personally only have a small arsenal of minor variations that I know won’t interfere with the tune should I decide to use them. Occasionally, after a few pints, I might get courageous and invent something… but I try to do it very sparingly so as not to wreck the fun my fellow musicians might be having.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
AVI, I don't mean to sound rude, but you've played in three sessions, and you're worried about leading tunes and whether it is right to try and mesh variations in with standard versions?
You shouldn't even be considering leading tunes at this stage. Just relax and listen. Once you get some understasnding of the music you will learn how a good leader will actually will the other players to follow his/her melodic improvisation, and how good players can add variation without adding discordance.
Playing Irish music isn't a matter of learning some tunes from a book and inflicting them on your local session.
Sorry
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I am asking questions as a way of learning here. I am not trying to inflict anything. In fact even the two sets that I led were at the prompting of the regulars. THEY told me that it's a good idea for me start a set because they would adjust to my pace and play the tunes that I know already. Do you see anything wrong with that? The fact that I'm asking about variations is because I'm trying to make sense of this whole concept. That's all. I am not belittling the process, as your last sentence almost implies. If I were, I wouldn't bother with this discussion. Just read up a couple of postings on what I wrote kris.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
AVI, I thought you said 'any comments would be appreciated'?.
A better way of learning is to spend more time just listening at sessions. I mean that in a constructive way, not trying to belittle you. There is nothing wrong with starting a set at any time. Just don't expect to be able to LEAD a set without experience of the dynamic of sessions, and indeed, some understanding of the tradition. THEY may have asked you to start a set, but you failed to lead it, otherwise everyone would have followed you(!)
The questions you are asking are very basic. They reveal a certain lack of understanding. You're starting from a 'beginner's' position here, yet drawing on (referring to) Paddy Keenan playing on “Poirt an Phiobaire”. Poirt an Phiobaire is very much a virtuoso recording, within the context of Irish music, if certainly still within the frame of reference of the average session player. The amount and extent of variation to a tune going on there is far beyond what would usually work at a session. All I'm saying is that if you come from outside the tradition, as you, and most of us, do, you need a lot of time to assimilate the nuances of this quite arcane music. It's not like playing Jazz, or Old-timey, or bluegrass. It is rarely about displaying 'musicianship'. It is about immersing yourself in the tradition. Paddy Keenan plays with the tunes the way that he does because he is a custodian of the tradition, if you like. When you say 'A good example is the excellent Paddy Keenan CD “Poirt an Phiobaire” and many others. To my ears this is a positive aspect of musicianship and a creative part of the experience.' you funadamentally misunderstand what it is all about. It is not about 'creative experience' it is about cultural immersion first.
I hope this doesn't sound too negative.
Regards
Mark
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
OMG a straight answer to my slightly snide remark!
Thanks for that, Jim. It doesn't really surprise me that this would be the case - and I completely agree that a lot of his stuff wasn't really that far out.
Isn't it a shame that we get rattled like this just when we could be having an amazing experience! Thanks for sharing.
Avi, for improvistion of the sort you talked about it would be worth hearing "The Liffey Banks" by Tommy Potts. He does go beyond the sort of "micro improvisation" that you were talking about, but, well......listen for yourself.
Does anybody know if this has ever been rereleased on CD?
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Hi Jim
An interested in the comments on Potts - I heard this (or thought I heard this) in Hughes lately, but subsequently was told that the session in Hughes started up later, and that he played in another pub previous to this (Four Seasons I think). Also (and I admit this is second hand information as I was quite young when he died) I was told that he never played with the other musicians, but only played on his own - that no one else could really match him. But as I said this was hearsay from other people at this particular session and may not either have been accurate (or remembered accurately by me)...
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
There is no standard way of playing any tune.
It depends on which part of Ireland you're from (or which part of the world) as to how the basic tune is played, phrased, ornamented and what and how variations are played.
The point of a session in my opinion is to play the same tune however you want to (within reason). Provided improvisations dont wonder off into other keys, it doesnt matter. Besides the chances are no-one is gonna hear anyway.
Buts its a good idea to start the tune in a commonly defined way; so everyone can join in.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I think that it might also be possible that the musicians in the session wanted to hear what the newbie sounded like. I've seen that happen many times. They ask you to play a tune and then they all keep quiet so they can hear your playing. It might have been curiosity and politeness rather than them being unwilling or unable to join in because of something in your playing.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Tommy Pott's "The Liffey Banks" is available on CD. I bought it a few months ago. Another good example of variations in fiddle tunes is any of the John Carty CDs.
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
A few musicians have an uncanny ability to seemingly change every note in a tune, yet still be playing something clearly recogniseable as that tune. I play in sessions regularly with one such musician, and some of it has rubbed off on my playing. Unfortunately I don't have the same genius quality and I am prone to wandering off course now and again. Then again, it doesn't feel natural for me to play a tune *exactly* the same twice. I have yet to be barred from a session, anyway.
How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I would like to relay a recent experience/observation and open it to comments please. I apologize in advance if this subject has been discussed in the past.
As some of you may have noticed, I’m new to Irish session. I’ve played in 3 so far, to be exact. After each session I find myself thinking hard about it and trying to draw lessons. They are plentiful.
At the first opportunity to lead a set, I played The Rambling Pitchfork as one of the tunes. To my surprise (horror?....) the other musicians sat there with an interested but puzzled look on their faces, trying to figure out what tune I was playing. I remember feeling inside “what’s the problem here? I know I’m playing this tune (more or less ) correctly because I’ve been practicing it. Guys….don’t leave me hanging here…”
So – I now know what happened. I learned the Rambling Pitchfork from the Mel Bay book “Fiddle Tunes and Irish Music for Mandolin”. It turns out that it is a little different from what (I guess) is commonly played at sessions. I checked here in the Tunes section, as well as in other sources and, indeed, it’s not *exactly* the same. It’s not entirely different, and my ears certainly associate both as the same basic tune. However, the beginning line is not *exactly* the same. I come from a jazz and other American traditions, where it’s not only common, but desired, for a musician to play tunes a little differently each time. Musicians take pride in it. To my ears, this is what the author notated in the book – a creative variation of the “standard” tune.
But – this is not what’s expected at the session….I guess. And it’s FINE but I would like to get some confirmation and to understand a little more of the culture, if there is any degree of uniformity…
By the way, I did go back another time and played the “expected” version and everyone joined in just fine so I’m assimilating and I have no problem with this.
Part of my confusion if this –I see variations in books like this one, the Simon Mayor book and others. I hear variations on Irish Traditional CD’s where there is one soloist and perhaps some backup instruments. A good example is the excellent Paddy Keenan CD “Poirt an Phiobaire” and many others. To my ears this is a positive aspect of musicianship and a creative part of the experience.
Are you still with me?
Here comes the question….what happens at the session? Do people really strive to play (if there is any way to agree) the *exact* same lines? If this is the case, then do you reserve your variations to when you are playing in very small circles or situations? If not, does each person play their own slight variation at the session and the overall sound is the “sonic average”?
I hope I’m communicating this clearly because I’m appalled by the number of words when I look up….
Any comments would be appreciated
Avi
# Posted on January 18th 2005 by improziv
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Of course we've talked about it before, Avi, and you'll probably want to go a-looking in the archives so you don't miss out on any points of view or novel ways of thinking about it, but no reason why we can't get more input on it.
As to variations: I generally try to think of there being a difference between a "setting" and a "variation". It's a little artificial, and won't be the same from person to person, but I tend to think of "settings" as having implied chords that are different between the settings, whereas "variations" tend to use the same chords between the different versions.
Good Irish players will often try to change even one or two notes every time they play the tune, but it's also quite accepted (although not thought of as highly a thing as the foregoing) to play the tune the same way through every time.
In my band, we "double" (ie: play the exact same thing including variations) a fair amount, but you never expect that out at sessions, and in some ways and circles it's even frowned upon, as it smacks of rehearsal and formal band playing rather than the spontaneous music expected at sessions.
As to settings of tunes not getting played as a group in sessions when the rest can't figure it out, it'll depend on a lot of different factors. These could include:
1) There's a lot of tunes that start the same, and it's not unusual to start playing along with someone only to discover on the B part that they're actually playing a different tune, and you have to stop playing because you don't have it -- egg on the face!
2) Though probably not the case here, I've heard tunes so badly mangled that no one, not even the most expert player, figured out what tune it *was* they were playing -- although I've quite often seen the expert players picking up and playing the tune, nodding encouragement and smiles at the beginner who started it, and afterward asking what the tune was.
3) If a player is really good, often even if they DO know the tune, the other players won't play, in order to pay homage to a really nice playing of a tune or so.
4) What a musician plays on their records may have no earthly resemblance to how they play at sessions, down to and including their settings of a tune. Records are made for solo playing, sessions aren't.
HTH, somewhere in there.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Upon occasion, it's been me mangling the tune.
You live, unfortunately -- I think every player I know has done it at least once.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Avi, the other musicians were being respectful. A lot of the time those things that look like subtle variations are actually completely different tunes. And yes, they are striving to play exactly the same melody as the other players, or intentionally play variations that they know do not conflict with the standard version.
You should not be shy to play alone, or wonder why no-one joins you when you do. If you aren't ready to solo it out and the thought of others not joining horrifies, disappoints, or annoys you, you probably shouldn't be starting tunes. Rather, if you want to play *with* people, exclusively, you ought to be learning their repertoire and following them instead of taking the plunge into leadership.
What you're talking about is common, so you have lots of company. If I had a dime for every time I heard someone who is new to sessions complain that nobody is bothering to learn their tunes or play with them when they try to lead a set I could buy a whole Starbucks franchise. Or at least a really big coffee.
The usual explanations are:
You are playing a variation nobody knows.
You are playing a tune nobody knows.
You are playing in the "wrong" key.
You are playing at a bizarre tempo.
You are playing with terrible rhythm.
You are just diong an outright miserable job of it and the other musicians are politely waiting for you to stop so the session can continue.
OK, well, I should have said "the player in question" instead of "you" cuz it sounds like I think you, personally, are guilty of all of the above offences. Which I don't. It sounds like it's a problem with your setting. My advice is; learn their tunes. Tape the session. You don't have to worry about people not playing with you if *you* are playing with *them*.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Oh, lovely cross-post. Zina, you're so much gentler and more positive than I am! Now I feel like a big ole meanie!
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Oh yeah, Ker, we all know that you're a horrendous bully, mean to the core, in fact, I've been meaning to plead with Jeremy to punish you for making me cry....
Well, admittedly, you've made me cry with laughter a couple of times. ;)
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Viva le difference!
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Zina - thank and let me pick at your statements a bit more....
When you say "Good Irish player swill often try to change even one or two notes..." then you wind up with several people playing slightly different lines simultaneously. Is this the case? Is the possible dissonance considered to be part of the overall accepted "sound"? When you have 4 fiddles and two accordions playing and each is making small changes, no one can really tell exactly what each one is doing, I would think, except themselves. So to me it seems like the chance to show your creative small variations is when you start the tune. Once "inside", it's a mesh of sound.
Also - you say "what a musician plays on their records may have no earthly resemblance to how they play at sessions...". Then how does this jive with the advice I hear so often of listening to records and learning tunes from them? Maybe three are known musicians who do record "session" versions of the tunes on their cd's?
If indeed the case may be that tunes can differ very slightly from one another, then I can understand the confusion when someone plays the line a little differently.
Thanks for the advice. I always welcome it.
I'll address Kerri's comments next
Avi
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by improziv
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I'm into old-time fiddling more than irish fiddling, but from my experience it creates a really nice texture (and even unintentional harmonies at some points) when different players are playing the same tune. Everyone has their own little spin on the tune.
Once again I stress this is from my experience with old-time fiddlers. To put this into perspective, when I was first starting off on the fiddle, one of my friends, an older fellow, brought me along to a jam session with his old buddies. He told me just to bow along to get the rhythm even if I didn't know the notes (queitly of course)!
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by natharious
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Kerri,
No worries. I was not offended by anything you said. Your reasoning is fine. They were not listening to me in awe. I was playing the right tune, in the right key, and the right rhythm. The problem was clearly the variation. I have to say that the structure of the tune and the harmony was the same. Large portions of the lines were the same but they were not ALL the same. I'm trying to get myself "in tune" with this concept because my brain is trained to very naturally recognize a tune even if it's played different. Even if it's drastically different. This comes from 25 year of listening to Jazz and playing some too. I am starting to see that in this tradition different tunes can vary by small amounts from one another, and therefore we must be careful with changes.
I have no problem with playing a solo piece, if indeed I am presenting the others with something new and interesting. My bad feelings came out of the expectation that this was *such* a common tune. That's ok. I attribute some of it to me being new at this, early jitters etc. It will get better, I'm sure and I'll be playing at a session more or less weekly from now on.
Thanks for taking the time to comment
Avi
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by improziv
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Nathanael - I've listened to and played music in the Norman Blake,/Tony Rice kind style for years and they never play the same thing twice. Of course they take solos and relish in improvising variations. Old Time music can have this (I call it) tension when different lines are played at the same time and it's part of the Sound. This is part of what I'm asking here - is this also considered part of the Session Sound.
Avi
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by improziv
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Some tunes played at sessions originate from "soloist's" recordings -- so it's not that simple. I will usually try to listen to other recorded examples and research tune databases to ferret out the most common setting of tunes I find on recordings. But the best source for tunes is from the session you want to play in regularly.
"He told me just to bow along to get the rhythm even if I didn't know the notes (quietly of course)"
Be careful with this advice, it is sometimes referred to as "noodling" in most ITM circles and isn't necessarily appreciated.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
"then you wind up with several people playing slightly different lines simultaneously. Is this the case? Is the possible dissonance considered to be part of the overall accepted "sound"?"
If the setting is the same even if the variations are different, most notes will work within the implied chord, so it's not as bad as it might sound. Part of the sound of the more or less traditional session is some honkers, though. I mean, it's only fairly recently that playing in tune became A Good Thing, you know. ;)
"Then how does this jive with the advice I hear so often of listening to records and learning tunes from them?"
I can see how this would be confusing. However, see the traditional vs. "traditional" thread for a bit of an inkling, or "listen" to some players go on about Lunasa or some of the more creatively-arranged bands. It's not uncommon for someone to come into a session all unknowing with a tune in some weird key that they learned off of a recording. If they're lucky, the other players (or even one or two of them) are good enough to know how to play the tune in a different key.
As Jack says above, though, it's the differences that make for an interesting time at a session, although admittedly that is truer for better players than it is for beginners and intermediate players.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Avi, a couple of points off of the main topic of variations. Be careful of what you assume to be "common". Commonality is often a local phenomenom.
Also, check your sources wisely and match them to the local players. Find out where they learned their music. Find out what sources they trust. Would any of your local players learn tunes out of the Mel Bay book?
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Jode
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Jack - from most of the comments I've read about noodling in the past, I wouldn't dream of playing along in an Irish session without knowing the notes. I was just trying to demonstrate the, I guess you could say, more relaxed nature of old-time fiddling. I think those guys are all half deaf anyhow!
On a slightly different notion, though still related to the topic, are sessioners expected to play the location-specific setting/variation of a tune while visiting that location or is diversity embraced?
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by natharious
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Jode - points well takem. In fact, I stopped using this particular tunes book after my first session. It just so happens that I had used it prior to this Session Life and so that 's the version that came out of my fingers. To be honest, I am not getting consistent answers from the session musicians because they have varied backgrounds and learned tunes in many ways and in many places. It's only natural. I will however, think about recording the sessions and learning some of the tunes that way. At least I'll have more in common. I am finding that the John Walsh tune collection is fairly close to what we play and so I'll work with it for a while, in addition to the tunes here at thesession.
Avi
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by improziv
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
"are sessioners expected to play the location-specific setting/variation of a tune while visiting that location or is diversity embraced?"
Depends on the session and its inmates. For instance, I learned "The Girl that Broke My Heart" from someone who plays it with a Bb in the first part. At Jack's session, for instance, in SF, they picked it right up and ran with it. At another session I played it at, one player actually refused to play it with the Bb even though they knew I was playing it with a Bb, and hit a dissonance every time, just because they thought it should be played with the Bnat. (After a couple times through, I gave in and played it 'their' way, even though I started the set and tune, for the sake of the overall music.)
Guess which session I think of as being more welcoming and friendly?
Yipes, I gotta get scooting for class!
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Nath - jumping in there, I always bow to the local setting of the tune and stop playing mine if it interferes. If I can get their version on tape or even pick it up, I will learn it greedily. If I think the version I have is worthy of their attention, I might chat with one of the folks after the tune set and play a snippet. If it strikes them as interesting, they may ask one to play the tune a few times.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Jode
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I must admit that I love improvising variations. I'm not talking about ripping up a tune and re-building it. I'm not talking about Charlie Parker taking How High the Moon and turning it into Donna Lee. I'm talking about small line variations that keep me and the listener interested in the tune even if I play it three times in a row
This is what I tend to do when playing for myself or for friends. One of my challenges will be keeping things separate and remembering which version is the Session Version and which is not. That's my problem I guess. It's either this or give up the variations for a while (sigh...) until I've gotten a core set of session tunes deeply embedded in muscle memory.
Avi
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by improziv
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Zina - I'm typing this in class right now =)
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by natharious
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Hi Avi - welcome to the wierd and wonderful world of sessions!
There are two reasons I don't go to lots of sessions - at least of the big free-for-all variety. One is fag smoke and the other is the topic of this thread.
I am not making a value judgement on all sessions based on this one challenging area, it just happens to be something that bugs me.
What's a "usual" or "session" setting of any given tune can vary wildly from one region/town/pub to the next. That I love. It's the tendancy to average everything out in any one particular (large) session that I don't enjoy.
As for the blank stares you got with your only slightly unusual setting: without meaning to be too negative - this may have been respect or puzzlement, but it may also have been a slight closing of ranks against a new setting of a familiar tune. It happens.
Your main goal seems to be to play/fit in to your local sessions (am I right?) - in which case a "when in Rome" approach is best, and a great way to learn. In future years you will look back and this core session will be part of your own personal tradition. You may carry settings learned there with you for the rest of your life.
Just remember: "This above all, to thine own self be true."
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by kris
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
". . . it's only fairly recently that playing in tune became A Good Thing, you know. ;)"
Holy Bejeezus, when did that happen, and why didn't I get the memo?
KFG
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by KFG
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I'm with you, avi. I love the variations. I'm starting to do them more and more. There's a trick to it though - you've got to be playing notes that are in pretty specific intervals from the "real" notes everybody else is play. Going way off on a tangent doesn't work - it has to be just a coupla notes here, coupla notes there, and they need to be thirds / fifths / octaves with *every* note the other folks are playing. This is just my personal opinion, (which really isn't worth much - I'm definitely not a reliable authority on this stuff) but wacky intervals and unexpected runs sound really dumb when everyone else is sticking to the basic tune. If what you're doing doesn't blend completely with what everybody else is doing you're going to look like a show-off, or like someone who doesn't actually know the tune to begin with.
As is often said on this site "there's nothing wrong with just playing the damn tune".
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
"playING". not "everybdy else is play". Sheesh.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Can anybody tell me whether the late great Tommy Potts ever went to sessions much? How did he get on?
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by kris
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
kris -
"Your main goal seems to be to play/fit in to your local sessions (am I right?)"
Only partially. My main goal is to find a context to express myself musically and otherwise. I like the idea of playing in a session and am investing time and energy in this direction. When approaching a new culture (nationality, religion, social group, club) I would never just barge in and try to do things *my* way right off the start. This is rude and disrespectful. I am trying to understand the tradition and learn the *language* and *customs* here. There has to be a certain amount of acceptance of me before anyone would be willing to entertain something unfamiliar - I think this is true in most cases. Therefore, I am first trying to integrate. I am sure that with time, and improved credibility, I would try to show unfamiliar tunes or versions of tunes but this is simply not appropriate at this time. At least this is my feeling and please correct me if you think I'm wrong. This is why I'm asking questions here and not making statements.
About the possibility of the other musicians "closing ranks" against a different version. I understand completely what you are saying but that's not the feeling that I got. Again - maybe I am not tuned in enough to catch the message but I'm reporting on what I feel as I understand body language. I'll keep an open mind about this concept as well
Time to cook dinner
Later
Avi
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by improziv
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
In order to make a tune sound "just right" in my view everybody has to play exactly the same notes as near as damm it at exactly the same time . . if you don't do that like others have said, the overall effect is muddled and discordant (have I spelt that right?), and the way to do that is practice with the same musicians for as long as it takes.Or go to a session and record what they are playing and go home and practice what you hear on the tape.
How would a classical orchestra sound if every musician had slightly different dots in front of them? a bloody mess.
Musicians can't play a tune "perfectly" together and its these miniscual variations that gives the tunes the "colour" that makes each session just that bit different from the last time you played together.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Justintime
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I've heard players who do variations successfully, but there was never any doubt that they really knew the tunes inside and out and could play them straight spot on at will. These people are usually coming up with perfectly executed variations that add a lot to the over-all sound quite nicely. That's one way of doing it. Another way is to do what was suggested above, and improvise variations much as a jazz musician might, or have worked out variations -- but this is a soloist's art. There's a danger in going down the variation/harmony road if you aren't so well versed you could play the tunes in your sleep. I know someone who has genius abilities at this sort of thing, but sometimes, when playing alone, they can't nail the actual tune. In other words -- it seems like so much time was spent in orbit that they lost touch with the actual tune. I personally only have a small arsenal of minor variations that I know won’t interfere with the tune should I decide to use them. Occasionally, after a few pints, I might get courageous and invent something… but I try to do it very sparingly so as not to wreck the fun my fellow musicians might be having.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
AVI, I don't mean to sound rude, but you've played in three sessions, and you're worried about leading tunes and whether it is right to try and mesh variations in with standard versions?
You shouldn't even be considering leading tunes at this stage. Just relax and listen. Once you get some understasnding of the music you will learn how a good leader will actually will the other players to follow his/her melodic improvisation, and how good players can add variation without adding discordance.
Playing Irish music isn't a matter of learning some tunes from a book and inflicting them on your local session.
Sorry
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Ottery
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I am asking questions as a way of learning here. I am not trying to inflict anything. In fact even the two sets that I led were at the prompting of the regulars. THEY told me that it's a good idea for me start a set because they would adjust to my pace and play the tunes that I know already. Do you see anything wrong with that? The fact that I'm asking about variations is because I'm trying to make sense of this whole concept. That's all. I am not belittling the process, as your last sentence almost implies. If I were, I wouldn't bother with this discussion. Just read up a couple of postings on what I wrote kris.
Cheers,
Avi
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by dragonfiddle
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Sorry, but I used someone else's account by mistake. Oooops.....
Avi
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by dragonfiddle
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
AVI, I thought you said 'any comments would be appreciated'?.
A better way of learning is to spend more time just listening at sessions. I mean that in a constructive way, not trying to belittle you. There is nothing wrong with starting a set at any time. Just don't expect to be able to LEAD a set without experience of the dynamic of sessions, and indeed, some understanding of the tradition. THEY may have asked you to start a set, but you failed to lead it, otherwise everyone would have followed you(!)
The questions you are asking are very basic. They reveal a certain lack of understanding. You're starting from a 'beginner's' position here, yet drawing on (referring to) Paddy Keenan playing on “Poirt an Phiobaire”. Poirt an Phiobaire is very much a virtuoso recording, within the context of Irish music, if certainly still within the frame of reference of the average session player. The amount and extent of variation to a tune going on there is far beyond what would usually work at a session. All I'm saying is that if you come from outside the tradition, as you, and most of us, do, you need a lot of time to assimilate the nuances of this quite arcane music. It's not like playing Jazz, or Old-timey, or bluegrass. It is rarely about displaying 'musicianship'. It is about immersing yourself in the tradition. Paddy Keenan plays with the tunes the way that he does because he is a custodian of the tradition, if you like. When you say 'A good example is the excellent Paddy Keenan CD “Poirt an Phiobaire” and many others. To my ears this is a positive aspect of musicianship and a creative part of the experience.' you funadamentally misunderstand what it is all about. It is not about 'creative experience' it is about cultural immersion first.
I hope this doesn't sound too negative.
Regards
Mark
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Ottery
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
OMG a straight answer to my slightly snide remark!
Thanks for that, Jim. It doesn't really surprise me that this would be the case - and I completely agree that a lot of his stuff wasn't really that far out.
Isn't it a shame that we get rattled like this just when we could be having an amazing experience! Thanks for sharing.
Avi, for improvistion of the sort you talked about it would be worth hearing "The Liffey Banks" by Tommy Potts. He does go beyond the sort of "micro improvisation" that you were talking about, but, well......listen for yourself.
Does anybody know if this has ever been rereleased on CD?
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by kris
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I have it on CD, I think, but (sh, don't tell interpol) it's a copy burned for me by a friend. Stellar playing, really.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Hi Jim
An interested in the comments on Potts - I heard this (or thought I heard this) in Hughes lately, but subsequently was told that the session in Hughes started up later, and that he played in another pub previous to this (Four Seasons I think). Also (and I admit this is second hand information as I was quite young when he died) I was told that he never played with the other musicians, but only played on his own - that no one else could really match him. But as I said this was hearsay from other people at this particular session and may not either have been accurate (or remembered accurately by me)...
Adrian
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by continuo
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
There is no standard way of playing any tune.
It depends on which part of Ireland you're from (or which part of the world) as to how the basic tune is played, phrased, ornamented and what and how variations are played.
The point of a session in my opinion is to play the same tune however you want to (within reason). Provided improvisations dont wonder off into other keys, it doesnt matter. Besides the chances are no-one is gonna hear anyway.
Buts its a good idea to start the tune in a commonly defined way; so everyone can join in.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Choonz
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
I think that it might also be possible that the musicians in the session wanted to hear what the newbie sounded like. I've seen that happen many times. They ask you to play a tune and then they all keep quiet so they can hear your playing. It might have been curiosity and politeness rather than them being unwilling or unable to join in because of something in your playing.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by SL*
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
Tommy Pott's "The Liffey Banks" is available on CD. I bought it a few months ago. Another good example of variations in fiddle tunes is any of the John Carty CDs.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Jiml
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
c'est possible, SL...
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Ottery
Re: How are melodic variations treated in sessions?
A few musicians have an uncanny ability to seemingly change every note in a tune, yet still be playing something clearly recogniseable as that tune. I play in sessions regularly with one such musician, and some of it has rubbed off on my playing. Unfortunately I don't have the same genius quality and I am prone to wandering off course now and again. Then again, it doesn't feel natural for me to play a tune *exactly* the same twice. I have yet to be barred from a session, anyway.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig