Everybody has majorly strong opinions about tunes / sessions/ jams/ theme songs to the titanic/ etcetc (behind their e-names of course) but they actually have no clue what they are taking about. What is that all about?
"hi, like Ive been playing for a year like and I like think like, blah, blah, blah, we dont have a session where I live up in the mountains but I still think they should be run like.......' aiiiieeeee
Not everyone on this site mind you, I have respect for many people here, but increasingly there are more and more newbies who literally thinik they have all the answers and never listen to the more experience players (no, I dont mean me) and its driving me crazy.
What happened to the way it used to be, sure we all had diffrenet opinions but at least we all play trad, most of us quite obessessed my the tunes and eager to take advice from one another and learn.
I dont think I've ever really been out of line much on this site, and I never have an opinion on things I dont know. This is pretty much the only real opinion I've had actually - and I know I'm not the only one, Ive had conversations with others who are on the site and they agree too.
So, Jeremy, I know you'll probaly delete this thread, but I really just needed to say it out loud instead of getting more annoyed with the constant bitching about sessions and musicians who may not want to play' the bucks of oranmore' at half speed anymore and who dont deserve to be called snobs because of it.
My last comment is, why cant people stop moaning and start learning more tunes. Then you probably find that 99% of those snobby muso's arent actually 'snobby ' at all.
As I said in the other thread, many of us (I'm often guily too) tend to generalise here. Unless we've actually been at a particular session, the "moans" can be interpreted in various ways by different members here.
So, reluctantly (because it can be fun), it's probably time for us all to stop moaning.
Anyway, why didn't you use up the rest of your internet set of SCRABBLE vowels?...aiiiieeeee
Good point though. I was teaching at Cygnet on Sunday and touched on memory and access. I'd agree that maybe comments based on a litle more experience would attract a modicum of respect.
I'm meeting up with Ken Maher this weekend..have you played with him? I caught him at the Hobart Fleadh 2003 but didn't get to play with him. I sure liked his music though!
The board is called "Discussions" not "Happy-smile-fun-time Discussions". You've got to take the good with the bad and let the thing police itself into an ambivalent state, no matter how high the spikes in the extremes may rise. That's what a discussion is.
It's the same thing with sessions. When you put something into the public, it's fair game, and there's no sense kvetching about what is inevitable. With time and subtlety on the part of everyone involved, the natural course of things will take hold and all will regress to the mean. If you don't believe me, take a Mole of hydrogen at 1200 degrees Kelvin and let it sit in your refridgerator long enough...it'll hit 0 degrees Centigrade eventually, trust me.
Or, just hire a security guard to stand in the corner during sessions to intimidate everyone, and bounce anyone who gets out of line. Before you know it, people who gravitate toward such confrontations will show up in numbers, first with knives, then guns, then drugs, and eventually with Weapons of Mass Destruction. Then one session will invade another, assassinating the publicans, rigging the elections, and consolidating into one big multi-national pub; then, allowing only one tune to be played--Yankee Doodle Dandy--there will be no room for dissent and WWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHH!
You got it just right! Why don't you send in the knives etc., but get rid of the traditional players first!
Also tell Jeremy you don't need ITM any more, and just set up the latest punk site for what deceased as trad Irish anyway.
I think this site DOES and SHOULD allow the exploration of many diverse lines of thought, but why should greetings, and affirmations of taste be treated so?
Or do you just play at sessions, with no social interaction?
Do you learn tunes in a "form" of tradition, which might mean that technical difficulty or tempo might be boss, more important, rather the shape and feel of a tune, which might be considered infra dig?
I heard the best introduction and justification ever for playing a tune
many years back when I played with the lovely Micho Russell. He said
"I'm going to play a tune called Fair-haired Mary because I like it!"
Bx
PS If you have the right tune for you, you'd never put it near a fridge! Maybe The Bucks of Oranmore didn't want to be frozen. Maybe it was more educated and went to Galway Library.
Yes, I agree, bb. And I'll take it one step further: no-one should be permitted to express an opinion, ever, anywhere in the world if they are not an expert in the topic being discussed. Think of all the time and confusion that could be spared! It would be so much more peaceful a world! Almost silent, in fact.
Hi, my name is Jack. I flew in a jet recently, (I don't fly in jets often) and I think the pilots should fly real low like over the mountains so we can see the bears. Also, passengers should be allowed to go to the cockpit and fly the plane when they get bored.
BB, I've read and reread your original post, and tried my best to grasp the message you are trying to convey, but to no avail. I then tried translating using babelfish, and found that it made most sense when translated to Korean, which didn't exactly work very well, but at least had benefit of removing most of the gibberish:
And with the benefit of the clarity that this translation affords, I have to conclude that the only sensible answer to your original question is a resounding, "Yes!"
I was being bitchy about the fact that there are so many musicians on this site that obviously have no clue and yet jump down the throats of people who obviously do have a clue if they disagree with them. Its happening more and more and to be honest, its a little irritating. And then coming up with absolutle classics like.
'Why cant we just have a big group hug and all be friends and lets all just be great best friends and all play in massive sessions, its not about what instruments you play or even what kind of tunes you play lets just all be friends and play together forever'
Is that plain enough for you ottery?
Brian, I will be at Chewton festival in 2 weeks time. If you are there we can meet and you can see I'm not actually a mean person, just a really annoyed one.
It's hopeless bb, if you even approach this issue you'll be flogged and have to sew a big "S" for "snob" on your clothing. I've learned the hard way on recent threads that people will take it too personally and read things into what you're saying that aren't there. It's best to just go hang out in the tunes section when folks start expounding on session etiquette.
I honestly believe that sessions should just consist of bodhran players, that would solve everything, none of that "do you know this tune" or "let's all play in F sharp minor" crack. And there would be nothing to moan about.
bb, maybe if someone says something specific that gets you specifically offended you might consider responding to them directly in the context of that thread instead of starting a new one. Jeremy has expressed a strong feeling of disgust with threads about threads and threads about the site, etc, and has promised to delete them all. Although it's been a while since I checked to see if the thread containing this threat is still there... it was about a thread so it ought to have been deleted. Which is ironic. (I think, but then I'm not an expert, I'll have to ask Alanis Morisette.)
Yes, but the point is kerri that there are heaps of people who do it. I just dont have time to spend writing to every single one of them. Too busy learning tunes and going to festivals and sessions. Also - someone might take it as a personal attack, and it isnt, it is just me wondering what is going on and seeing if anyone knows the answer.
I think I have found the answer, and that would be, 'dont bother cause its not going to change a thing'. Which is actually pretty good advice really.
There is SO much hostility here! Honestly, people this is supposed to be about music! Some times I read these discussions and think that some of you must belong to some sort of cult. Cultic and related authoritarian groups have been known to harm children, physically and psychologically. Not surprisingly, child protection authorities cannot easily measure the scope of the problems these cults pose. Scientific literature on child abuse in cultic groups is almost nonexistent. Official investigations cover only a handful of extreme cases in which the death of a child served as the stimulus to governmental action. Nearly all of the other available information comes from individual court cases, about which newspaper reports are the only readily available sources of information. Nevertheless, on the whole the evidence is sufficiently compelling to warrant examination. Please, people think before you write such hostile statements!
I watched and sat back for the most of the time while these threads are in the workings and I have found a trend and its the same one that I have seen so many times in real life.
1. The conplainers at sessions tend not to know very much about Ireland, Irish Music, Irish Traditions and Cultures.
2. Bitchy sessions occur outside of Ireland alot more then in Ireland.
Here is the thing that I would like to make clear. To many people learn the music and forget to learn the tradition of playing it. A session in Ireland has been for hundreds of years one of the only places to learn. In times gone by people would go to sessions to try out instruments that they didn't own because they couldn't afford them so the session became and is still a huge learning ground, if that was to change a lot of the soul of the music would be lost, the best players in Ireland learn their music from people and not CDs and in doing so they keep the pulse of the music alive. There is a big difference to a Player learned by CD and one learnt by comrade. Beginners are expected and encouraged to play and learn. Elite musicain sessions are a foreign thing. Nobody has a right to control or judge others at an improptu or other wise session. There is more to Irish Music than the music itself and people should learn that as it is very important to do so. The impression given on this site on certain threads would give beginners from other countries that ye are not welcome, this goes again'st everything Irish Music and Ireland as country stands for. People who decide to play Irish music are welcome to do so but are expected and at least owe it to Ireland to learn the tradition and the culture of the music as well. having a big snotty nose and an attitude problem is not part of it.
Pehaps by studing how the music is handed down will give people more of an idea as to what a session is really about. Its about helping, passing on not just music, but style and culture in stories, dances and songs and tunes. The music is part of this but only part and this is where a lot go wrong.
Threads like this seem ok to me and I don't know why they would be pulled as it is about the subject at hand ie. Music. I think to leave these treads would stop the tunes section getting cluttered up.
Of course, some of the most vicious slaggings I've ever seen behind other players' backs have been in Ireland by very Irish players. So, I suppose you could say that people are just about the same everywhere: they come in all sorts.
Zina, I find most Irish players quite the other way. I find that Irish players will tell you to your face in no uncertain terms when needed and often do it without due consideration to ones feelings. I find that other nationalities do the back stabbing.
So it all sugars off to personal preference: a spit in the eye or a shiv in the spine. Session goers are advised to wear stylish safety glasses and kevlar undergarments. Have a blast!
John, I think it was in Ireland that I first realized that there could be different sessions for different levels of playing. I would enjoy watching and listening to a session with advanced players in one place, and then just down the road there would be a full of folks learning the music in another place. I understand and appreciate the difference between learning music from a CD as opposed to learning from people, but are you suggesting that all sessions should be prepared to change what they're doing in order to accommodate learners regardless of what the session was before the learners arrived? Personally I think learners should be welcome at sessions because you do learn a lot just by watching and listening. But, as a person learning, I wouldn't expect any session I encountered to suddenly stop what they're doing and start playing my tunes and helping me learn. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that's kind of what you're suggesting... is it?
No not like that, we are all learning and that has to said. The session itself does not need changing, only certain attiudes. Learners and sessions are tradition and that is really what I mean,t. The session should not come to grinding halt to accommodate learners but it should not be a stage for a chosen (self chosen) few either. Learners sit and watch and more importantly listen to the styles of the players and will in time develop. But it is the way that the music has been handed on for a very long time and modern players tend not to acknowledge this at all, as I said above there is more to Irish music than the music itself and I really feel that people learning it should also learn this too. The Session is bigger than the musicains that play at it and has a history a lot longer than the oldest player that has ever lived and a true understand of what an Seisiún is about is really needed. Perhaps if people learnt this it would bring a great reduction in problematic sessions.
When people learn their music and style through a session they show signs of a deeper understanding for the music and indeed the nationalily it represents.
So the answer, the session need no changing, but the people who play at them need an understanding as to what a session is and represent and then they need to start complying rather then trying to change long established traditions. Lets face it, would an Irish person get a way with trying to change the tradition of classical music or chineese music? or would they even try?
Ok, thanks for the clarification. To me the common denominator with session problems still boils down to people coming to an existing session and forcing their own standards on it. I think this still causes problems regardless of how enlightened the players at the session are in relation to their understanding of the tradition. I'm always hoping these discussions will at least give readers food for thought on how they might approach sessions they visit.
Very true, I think it is very important that issues like this keep getting the headlines. If people don't know the approach to proper session playing then how are they going to find out about it if threads like this and others keep getting the bullet.
Won't be able to meet with you, but will make sure we do get together sometime.
And in defence of the session etiquette of this site, I'd like to publicly thank you and the others on this site who emailed when I first joined, it really was a special time for me!
And since then when others have had things happen, as we all know little messages get back, just as they would in a real session where people take the time to be people, and not robotic tunesmiths.
Reading Jack and Compaqjohn's posts above, I think a penny finally dropped for me! Jack often comes on here and gets very frustrated when he makes what seems to be a very reasonable statement, which is that sessions should not be expected to accommodate visitors, but that visitors should respect the form of the session they are visiting. On the face of it, no one should disagree with this, but it always ends up with everyone falling out. Why is this?
Might I suggest that it is because of a very small, but crucial difference between sessions in different places which are failing to be understood. Maybe in parts of America, say, there are 'professional level' sessions, and slow or 'learning' sessions. The American approach may sometimes (and I'm picking my words carefully here) be more rigid and heirarchical (respecting of rules?) than say in Ireland, where maybe the integrity of a session might be maintained more by respect towards the leaders of that session (a subtle difference but I think an important one). So - you're man (Jack, say) goes to Ireland and sees 'a session with advanced players in one place, and then just down the road there would be a full of folks learning the music in another place', and assumes that these two different sessions equate to the two different levels of sessions discussed in America. However, they are slightly different, and the boundaries are more blurred than in American sessions (I know this is a bit of a gross generalisation). I've seen youngsters and learners happily accepted in to quite powerful sessions in Ireland, without any sign that they feel 'in awe' of the core of the session, and I've seen famous players quite happily playing (not just with the aim of 'teaching') in very basic sessions. I don't think this is as common across the Atlantic, for a whole variety of reasons. There are less opportunities for sessions obviously because there are a smaller proportion of the population that even know that Irish music exists, let alone play it(!) One of the results is that sessions need to be protected more from rapacious attacks by marauding bluegrass players and Celtic Wannabees. But I can't help feeling that the culture is different in the States in terms of a general tendency to compartmentalise more, and because of the extreme culture of the individual, and worship of 'Stars', in whatever field. I think that is why bluegrass (flashy soloing) is big, and olde-timey (friendly ensemble playing) is small(?) The result is that I don't think that I would hesitate to ask to sit in at virtually any session in Ireland, whereas I might be quite intimidated at the idea of approaching some US sessions.
All in all a lot of generalisations, I know, but I'm trying to put my finger on something that is definitely there, but is difficult to pin down.
Mark
Hear hear, John. Well said. And I think you're onto something too, Mark. Also, grumbling about who is ruining things for everbody else seems to be a North American tradition as well. It's way more fun in Ireland when somebody clueless shows up and makes a mess of things.
You're absolutely right, Ottery, the circumstances outside of Ireland are very different. Ireland has had a lot more time to adjust to this 50 year old session tradition, (as Conán points out,) and the concentration of great players is much higher. Many of the negative situations that occur in Ireland happen when visitors from other countries unknowingly disturb what's going on. Not everybody, and especially people who have recently become interested, have had the opportunity to go to Ireland and witness for themselves these sorts of things -- so they blunder into sessions with the best intentions only to disturb the flow of tunes and fun. This forum is one place where readers can gain insight into all the different ways that ITM is shared and provide a road map of sorts to help make everyone's experience more gratifying and enjoyable.
Yes, Jack, I think that’s it. It’s to do with respect and actually coming to the session with an understanding of the nature of the beast. Also in England and America, there are ‘other’ session traditions, and people blundering in from Bluegrass sessions, Singarounds, and English music sessions frequently don’t understand the different dynamic of an Irish session. Plus maybe the cultural differences I was trying to fel my way into above...
It's useful to look at your predecesors when starting up a session, to pick up ideas how to help it run smoothly and avoid common problems. But beyond that I'm not sure I understand why it matters to people outside of Ireland how sessions operate in Ireland. For several reasons. (Mind you, I'm biased because I live in the States, and I haven't been to Ireland since 1964, when I clung to my Dad's back as we pedaled around counties Roscommon and Galway .
First, according to Hammy Hamilton, who did his Ph.D. on the history of sessions, sessions originated in WWII era London. Mick Moloney (also an avid historian of the music and sessioning) cites pub sessions among Irish immigrants in NYC and Chicago before WWII as a probable beginning of the session idea. Either way, it seems that London, NYC, Chicago, and perhaps Boston could lay claim to a longer "tradition" and experience with the ins and outs of sessions and might be better places to look for models of session operations and etiquette (if that's what you're after). Of course, those ex-pat traditions no doubt incorporated parts of the culture from back home, but in bringing the session idea back to Ireland, no doubt some Yank and Brit cultural influences--or urban influences at the least--were dragged along.
In short, sessions are not some purely homegrown, ancient idea that one culture alone has dibs on. They've certainly taken root and flourished in Ireland, but elsewhere as well. I'm not sure you can say one approach is more authentic than any other.
Second, long-running local sessions tend to develop their own local mores and customs. Every session I've ever been to is different from it's neighbors near and far. They run the gamut from laidback, wide-ranging parties to formal almost gig-like performances, with a little of everything nuanced in between. Some obviously try to mimic how they think sessions operate in Ennis or Doolin or Westport, and that's okay, if that's what the participants want to do. But most sessions reflect the talents and preferences of the local participants themselves.
So it seems to me that the session is a very broad, diverse, young tradition--which makes it very difficult to generalize about. If there's one thing that sessions have in common it's that they're all different.
My experience of sessions on the East and West coasts of the US, suggests that few if any of Mark's generalizations are accurate. Not that he didn't make a valiant effort to move our understanding forward.
Mark, I've noticed that hero-worship thing you've mentioned does spill over into the music. We might look down our noses at Shania Twain and scoff at the ridiculous people who admire her, but still we speak the names of certain ITM musicians in hushed and reverent tones and are skittish as hell to plop ourselves down next to them at their sessions. (How COULD we! The SHEER AUDACITY!) And we tend to all get mad at each other when we mention we might have done this once or twice. Don't know if it's jealousy or just a natural aversion to having the pedestal jostled. If I mention I went to, say, a Dannu session, I often pick up these vibes of "Well, that was awfully disrespectful of you and you must have ruined it."
Which is a silly attitude, in my opinion. If you play this type of music long enough you're bound to bump into everyone sooner or later and you'll have a better time if you haven't got all kinds of delusions that they are magical, special, wise, and somehow different from the rest of us, and that they are going to consider talking to the likes of you a complete waste of time, but that's all right because you'll probably embarass yourself anyway, so you suppose you'll just hang out with the punters at the bar and tell all your friends you saw Mairead ni Moinaigh (or however you spell it) walk into a session once...
Well Will, I was aware that I was opening myself up to a charge of excessive generalisation ... I was really trying to explore why it might be that Jack and Compaq seemed to be agreeing, but disagreeing at the same time. I know that American sessions are very varied, and that sessions as we now know them probably started in Camden Town and Boston. I was really just flailing around trying to put my finger on something that I picked up from the discussion above - and I've still not got it pinned down! -Maybe it'll just have to go in the log of 'valiant efforts' and it'll never get past the tip of my tongue....
I would point out in my defence that I didn't at any time make any value judgements about the 'authenticity' or otherwise of any sort of session.
Kerri, on the flip side, I think American heros have more of an expectation to be worshipped. And that they themselves may try to separate themselves from the communities. (I know this is a generalization and do not wish to offend the lovely people in this country who are open and wonderfully supportive.)
Also, I respectfully agree to disagree with Will and perhaps Jack at the same time. Having been lucky enough to attend Irish sessions, I think they are as a rule more consistent than sessions in the States. (Consistent across the country, meaning the session style is similar in Belfast, Ennis and Cork.) They are a great model and I think that all Irish Traditional music sessions worldwide should mimic those sessions.
This is not to say that there is not room for variety. However, there is definitely a model that I have in mind when I think of a great session.
"... I think that all ITM sessions worldwide should mimic those sessions."
Yikes!
Sounds like the opening sales pitch for a home video of these sessions of which you speak - "...for the benefit of those who have never been to Ireland and have no intention of ever going, these tapes will to help perfect their mimicry, thus lending their own sessions that magical flavour of authenticity that naturally occurs on the green Isle..."
Such a horrible thing, to want to play Irish Traditional Music and to do it in a way that countless wonderful players are doing it in the country from which the music comes.
Yep, Jode, I can think of a great session model, too, with a whole list of ideal features. But I've seen those happen in the States as well. Even here in the boondocks. We've had some visitors from Cork, Galway, Donegal, and Clare, and they've all said they were stunned to find a cranking session "just like home" here in Montana. So I suppose i agree with your larger point. I'm just not too keen on narrowly type-casting all state-side sessions (or all UK sessions, or even all Ireland sessions) one way or the other.
Will, I guess we can agree to agree then. Because, despite what I have said above (and how Kerri interpreted it), I hate strict rules and generalizations.
I went to a session in Donegal town once that was hilariously unlike other sessions in Ireland. Even so, we had a fabulous time at it. I would not, however, hold it in my head as an ideal session.
OK, lets move away from american sessions, which I'm not really qualified to comment on, though you might apply what I'm about to say to them if you think fit.
I have been to lots and lots of varied sessions in England, and a fair few in Ireland. I have often thought that sessions in England, (With a few notable exceptions) could do with a printed set of 'rules' stuck up on the wall, both for the benefit of newcomers, and those who have been around for a while and should really know better(!) This is something that has been bandied around here in a tongue in cheek fashion for years.
I can't think of ANY session in Ireland that I've been to where I've thought the same thing.
Why is that?
One other thing. I am not saying that all sessions outside of Ireland are crap. And I am not saying that people in Montana or Argentina cannot have a great session.
I am saying that I agree with John and Mark in that one should not only be aware of the music, but of the context and culture.
Afterall, arguing about location does not really matter. Who were the people who started the sessions in London and Boston and Chicago? Were they, as a rule, anything other than Irish or first generation immigrants? Did they not have the culture and the context?
Exactly, Jode. But the context included being immigrants.
I wonder if we've seen a shift over the 60-70 life of sessions, from a beginning where the participants were not long-time locals (because they'd all fairly recently arrived there from somewhere else), to today, where many good sessions have a long local history, based in part on the same participants--long-time friends, neighbors, and musical partners in many cases--coming down to the same pub for years and years. Surely that would create a different context and social dynamic than a handful of strangers--Kerrymen and Sligo and Co. Down ex pats--sitting down in a Camdentown pub in 1946 to suss out what tunes they might have in common.
Um, is it just me, or have all the Irish people with extensive in-country experience of sessions left the room? That should tell us something, eh? *grin*
Sorry, Jode, I'm not trying to twist your ideas up on purpose, just amusing myself with imaginary marketing ploys inspired by that one line about mimicry. I'm fortunate to be living in a place with a throbbing musical heartbeat all of its own here in the new world. We play a lot of Irish stuff, but also Quebecois, Cape Breton, Scottish, Welsh, Breton, and even a few Scandanavian tunes here without studiously mimicking any of these different cultures, but somehow it still fits together perfectly fine, 90 per cent of the time.
I wouldn't trade the chaotic, step-dancing, fly-swatting, foot tapping, nearly-free-beer swilling sessions in Montreal for a perfect model of an Ennis session no matter how much you paid me (although I'm thrilled to have the choice.)
And Will, I've noticed myself that the few Irish folks who actually participate in these chats always bail out at the first hint of the "What sessions should be like" debate. Sometimes after giving us a little head-shaky lecture like compaqjohn's heartfelt soliloquy above...
Re: Jode's "culture and context" -- a session in Montana or Argentina can't hope to truly re-create an Irish culture and context, because they're surrounded by a whole 'nuther culture and context. So even if they tried, it would be the proverbial round peg in the quare (sic) hole and you'd still end up with people who need the "rules" explained to them.
Of course, even in Ireland they run into people at sessions who need the rules explained to them. They call them tourists.
Which reminds me, Montanan's have a bumper sticker that reads: "If they call it tourist *season,* why can't we hunt them?"
Actually, I'll bet the reason they aren't paying attention is that they don't give a poop whether we model our sessions on theirs or not. In fact, I bet they wish we wouldn't - I bet they wish we'd come up with our own tunes and dances and quit arguing about theirs.
Will, you are right about context and culture...either you bring the water to the horse or the horse to the water. In either case, hopefully the horse cares, is thirsty, and has a decent memory.
I'm not required to call it anything. It's just where I go Monday nights. I don't hear anyone in Ireland calling their sessions "Irish Traditional Music Sessions" either, if we're still talking about mimicry... ;^)
Heh, Jode, that reminds me of another quip that busted everyone up at a public meeting on land use: "You can lead a county commissioner to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
Which is too often at the root of problems when someone unfamiliar with sessions shows up. You can try to help them understand what behaviors aren't appropriate (for that specific session), but you can't always get their voluntary compliance. Human nature I suppose. Isn't that why they have police at soccer matches?
Hey...now you were the one to use the quotes there, not me! Zina will be after you now.
I was not trying for a dig there, just saying that sometimes we cross lines in talking about a session. Wait till the Scots awake.
But to put all my blather in context, I was referring to Irish traditional music sessions. And if the publicans didn't refer to them as such, how would the tourists find them?
Jode, in the absence of emoticons on your last sentence, I'll take it that you're being earnest there. But you'll have a hard time convincing me that the sessions for tourists (which are often paid gigs for a handful of players) are anything like the native sessions in Ireland.
The publicans don't refer to them as such. They just refer to it as "music". Or sometimes if a tourist seems particularly confused about what kind of music to expect in the corner of an Irish pub in Ireland, they will say "*Irish* music."
I guess since I live in Quebec, none of the sessions I go to are Irish Traditional Music sessions. They are "Quebecois Traditional Music Sessions" where Irish tunes are played. And the sessions I went to in Calgary were "Calgarian Traditional Music Sessions" where Irish tunes were played.
There are a few purists trying to carve out a little Donegal embassy in some corner of Montreal and I wish them the best, but secretly I beleive they are doomed to fail, as the city is teeming with stellar Quebecois musicians who learned their tunes on their grandaddy's knees who absolutely do not understand what the big deal is about Irish Traditional Music Sessions, and they will inevitably turn up and "ruin" things by reminding those who would rather be in Ireland that we are actually in Quebec.
Sorry, I am not hip to emoticons! But you can happen across good sessions in Ireland that have a sign posted out front:
"Tonight: Live Irish Traditional Music!"
I think that the Ovens session (RIP) in Cork City used to be that way. It was a hosted session (paid), but was always rip roaring and nicely attended by locals and blow-ins.
OK, OK, you win, Jode. Next time I go, I'll have to stop musicians on the street and say "Hey, I'm looking for an Irish Traditional Music Session, can you help me out?" That way I'll fit right in!
You know, I've been to Montreal, and I know they don't call them Quebecois Traditional Music Sessions there! And I am sure they must not play Welsh tunes at all. What are you on about altogether?
; ^) Did I do that right?
In case the thread ended here, I just wanted to make it full circle since I have never been north of the border.
Well, that guy with the Northumbrian pipes might be playing Northumbrian tunes, now that I think about it... I personally wouldn't know a Welsh tune from a Klingon lullabye.
When you're in Ireland and you see a sign that says: "Tonight: Live Irish Traditional Music!" -- odds are good that's what you're going to get. However, if you see a sign that says, "Irish Stew" -- don't order it. %-P
Heh, yes, it's been fun reading, Ker... Yeah, why've you taken the bit off about hanging off of steeples around England, David? Those pictures give me goosebumps every time. (I've mentioned that I'm really bad around heights, right?)
With all that scuba diving I did over Christmas I know what's under there, Zina - it's lovely and harmless. Just a bunch of coral and pretty coloured fishies. All living in perfect peace and harmony amid the wreckage of a bunch of shattered, decaying boats just like the one you're floating in... just make sure you don't touch anything... my arm is still burning and it's been three weeks... I wonder if I should see somebody about that...
Laura! How you going misses?? I'll be back over in July for Willie Week, so gear up cause twill be another big one I'm sure. Are you and Crossey going?
Right so, the session that ye refer to as starting in the 40,s is that of the pub session, when the music went into a public house. That started in Dublin, London and Manchester and not Boston. But Boston did come soon afterwards.
An Seisiún means a lot of different things to different people in Ireland, but can include the following
A session of drink, A session of music, a Session of dance, story telling Sean Nos singing and dancing.
The word "An Seisiún" can refer to music and dance played in a house, a barn, at a crossroads, on the back of truck at fleadh time. Mr PhD is refering to the 1940's pub sessions and nothing else, the impression given above by a few is that Irish people only started playing togeather in groups in the 40's. What CRAP. The thing to know and remember is that it really does not matter where or what the venue is, the culture is still Irish and nothing can change that. I people have always played togeather and the requirements have been the same. I may have gone into a pub but the same tact is required. Sessions in the states are nothing like sessions in Ireland , Scotland, England and Wales. There is simply to much difference between the two countries in lifestyle, education and work. Im not saying they are bad, only completely different and I don't care much for them. Of course I am biased
BB, does a bear sh*t in the woods? of course my partner in crime is going! looking forward to it, give us a shout closer to the time, Im on the same mobile number. hope you're keeping well, and still fiddling away i hope!!
Gosh, John, that's a pretty sweeping statement. Congratulations on having been to all of the sessions in the US! That must be some kind of record!
I'm certainly glad you aren't talking about Canada. I've been getting fonder and fonder of this country's traditional music history and diversity ever since I rolled east of Alberta.
When someone comes in late and plays a tune I don't care for that's been played already that session, especially if he/she plays it indifferently three times through...I just sit there counting, "AA,BB,AA - when's this going to end?" - But I'll have been guilty myself.
Dont you just hate it when.........
Dont you just hate it when.........
Everybody has majorly strong opinions about tunes / sessions/ jams/ theme songs to the titanic/ etcetc (behind their e-names of course) but they actually have no clue what they are taking about. What is that all about?
"hi, like Ive been playing for a year like and I like think like, blah, blah, blah, we dont have a session where I live up in the mountains but I still think they should be run like.......' aiiiieeeee
Not everyone on this site mind you, I have respect for many people here, but increasingly there are more and more newbies who literally thinik they have all the answers and never listen to the more experience players (no, I dont mean me) and its driving me crazy.
What happened to the way it used to be, sure we all had diffrenet opinions but at least we all play trad, most of us quite obessessed my the tunes and eager to take advice from one another and learn.
I dont think I've ever really been out of line much on this site, and I never have an opinion on things I dont know. This is pretty much the only real opinion I've had actually - and I know I'm not the only one, Ive had conversations with others who are on the site and they agree too.
So, Jeremy, I know you'll probaly delete this thread, but I really just needed to say it out loud instead of getting more annoyed with the constant bitching about sessions and musicians who may not want to play' the bucks of oranmore' at half speed anymore and who dont deserve to be called snobs because of it.
My last comment is, why cant people stop moaning and start learning more tunes. Then you probably find that 99% of those snobby muso's arent actually 'snobby ' at all.
Over and out
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by bb
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Learning tunes takes time and dedication. Moaning can be done right now.
KFG
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by KFG
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
As I said in the other thread, many of us (I'm often guily too) tend to generalise here. Unless we've actually been at a particular session, the "moans" can be interpreted in various ways by different members here.
So, reluctantly (because it can be fun), it's probably time for us all to stop moaning.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Yeah BB, stop moaning and go learn some tunes.
C x
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Hi BB!
Gotta meet sometime. Tamar this weekend?
Anyway, why didn't you use up the rest of your internet set of SCRABBLE vowels?...aiiiieeeee
Good point though. I was teaching at Cygnet on Sunday and touched on memory and access. I'd agree that maybe comments based on a litle more experience would attract a modicum of respect.
I'm meeting up with Ken Maher this weekend..have you played with him? I caught him at the Hobart Fleadh 2003 but didn't get to play with him. I sure liked his music though!
Brianx
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Ugh, the Bucks half speed is worse than the Bucks full speed.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by meemtp
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
It probably is. However, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad tune.
)
(I'll defend the Bucks until Michael arrives
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
The board is called "Discussions" not "Happy-smile-fun-time Discussions". You've got to take the good with the bad and let the thing police itself into an ambivalent state, no matter how high the spikes in the extremes may rise. That's what a discussion is.
It's the same thing with sessions. When you put something into the public, it's fair game, and there's no sense kvetching about what is inevitable. With time and subtlety on the part of everyone involved, the natural course of things will take hold and all will regress to the mean. If you don't believe me, take a Mole of hydrogen at 1200 degrees Kelvin and let it sit in your refridgerator long enough...it'll hit 0 degrees Centigrade eventually, trust me.
Or, just hire a security guard to stand in the corner during sessions to intimidate everyone, and bounce anyone who gets out of line. Before you know it, people who gravitate toward such confrontations will show up in numbers, first with knives, then guns, then drugs, and eventually with Weapons of Mass Destruction. Then one session will invade another, assassinating the publicans, rigging the elections, and consolidating into one big multi-national pub; then, allowing only one tune to be played--Yankee Doodle Dandy--there will be no room for dissent and WWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHH!
How exciting!
Back to the Think Tank...
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by grymater
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Hey Gymater!
You got it just right! Why don't you send in the knives etc., but get rid of the traditional players first!
Also tell Jeremy you don't need ITM any more, and just set up the latest punk site for what deceased as trad Irish anyway.
I think this site DOES and SHOULD allow the exploration of many diverse lines of thought, but why should greetings, and affirmations of taste be treated so?
Or do you just play at sessions, with no social interaction?
Do you learn tunes in a "form" of tradition, which might mean that technical difficulty or tempo might be boss, more important, rather the shape and feel of a tune, which might be considered infra dig?
I heard the best introduction and justification ever for playing a tune
many years back when I played with the lovely Micho Russell. He said
"I'm going to play a tune called Fair-haired Mary because I like it!"
Bx
PS If you have the right tune for you, you'd never put it near a fridge! Maybe The Bucks of Oranmore didn't want to be frozen. Maybe it was more educated and went to Galway Library.
Bx
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Eeerrrrrrr!!! I thought you liked me!!!
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by grymater
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Yes, I agree with you bb.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by violynnsey
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
The Moles, again. You'd think the temperature would've killed them the first time.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by ∅
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Heh, yeah! That or the reefer.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by grymater
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Yes, I agree, bb. And I'll take it one step further: no-one should be permitted to express an opinion, ever, anywhere in the world if they are not an expert in the topic being discussed. Think of all the time and confusion that could be spared! It would be so much more peaceful a world! Almost silent, in fact.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
I doubt that, with so many experts at the ready. Of course I'll concede I'm not an expert on world silence.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by ∅
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Hi, my name is Jack. I flew in a jet recently, (I don't fly in jets often) and I think the pilots should fly real low like over the mountains so we can see the bears. Also, passengers should be allowed to go to the cockpit and fly the plane when they get bored.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
I agree with Jack. My recent flights have been unbearable too.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by ∅
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Hey, I want to be a snobby muso, can I subscribe for a monthly magazine ? Where do i send my cheque to ?
ps I already own an anorak.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by BegF
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
BB, I've read and reread your original post, and tried my best to grasp the message you are trying to convey, but to no avail. I then tried translating using babelfish, and found that it made most sense when translated to Korean, which didn't exactly work very well, but at least had benefit of removing most of the gibberish:
.........? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???e???? ???etcetc? ?/?? ? ???? ???majorly?? ??? (???) ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???. ??? ? ?? ?? ???? ? ? ?? ?? ??Ive"hi?, ??????, ???, ?? ?? ??? ???.......' ??? ?? ? ? ??? ?? ??? ???? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????; aiiiieeeee ? ?? ???? ??? ??, ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???, ??? ?? ???thinik?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ? (???, ?? ?? ???? ???) ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ??? ?? ? ???. , ???? ?? ?? ??diffrenet?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??trad, ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????, ??? ????obessessed. ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??I've? ???? ????? ?, ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???. ??? ?? ??? ?? ??I've??? ????? ?? - ??I'm? ??? ??? ? ???,Ive?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????. ???,Jeremy, ??you'llprobaly??? ? ?, ??? ? ??? ??play'? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???; oranmore'? ???; ?? ? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ? ???. ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ??? ???? ? ?, ?? ??? ???? ??. ?? ?? ???? ?snobbymuso'sarent?????'snobby'? ?99%? ????; ???. ??? ??? ???
And with the benefit of the clarity that this translation affords, I have to conclude that the only sensible answer to your original question is a resounding, "Yes!"
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
I was being bitchy about the fact that there are so many musicians on this site that obviously have no clue and yet jump down the throats of people who obviously do have a clue if they disagree with them. Its happening more and more and to be honest, its a little irritating. And then coming up with absolutle classics like.
'Why cant we just have a big group hug and all be friends and lets all just be great best friends and all play in massive sessions, its not about what instruments you play or even what kind of tunes you play lets just all be friends and play together forever'
Is that plain enough for you ottery?
Brian, I will be at Chewton festival in 2 weeks time. If you are there we can meet and you can see I'm not actually a mean person, just a really annoyed one.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by bb
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Thanks BB, I did really suss out what you meant - it just that it took a bit of figuring out from your original post.
As I said - "Yes..."
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
It's hopeless bb, if you even approach this issue you'll be flogged and have to sew a big "S" for "snob" on your clothing. I've learned the hard way on recent threads that people will take it too personally and read things into what you're saying that aren't there. It's best to just go hang out in the tunes section when folks start expounding on session etiquette.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
I honestly believe that sessions should just consist of bodhran players, that would solve everything, none of that "do you know this tune" or "let's all play in F sharp minor" crack. And there would be nothing to moan about.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Then what you would have is a drum circle, n'est pas?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by violynnsey
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
bb, maybe if someone says something specific that gets you specifically offended you might consider responding to them directly in the context of that thread instead of starting a new one. Jeremy has expressed a strong feeling of disgust with threads about threads and threads about the site, etc, and has promised to delete them all. Although it's been a while since I checked to see if the thread containing this threat is still there... it was about a thread so it ought to have been deleted. Which is ironic. (I think, but then I'm not an expert, I'll have to ask Alanis Morisette.)
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Yes, but the point is kerri that there are heaps of people who do it. I just dont have time to spend writing to every single one of them. Too busy learning tunes and going to festivals and sessions. Also - someone might take it as a personal attack, and it isnt, it is just me wondering what is going on and seeing if anyone knows the answer.
I think I have found the answer, and that would be, 'dont bother cause its not going to change a thing'. Which is actually pretty good advice really.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by bb
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
PS - sorry ottery, am trying to be sneaky at work so I missread your post.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by bb
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
There is SO much hostility here! Honestly, people this is supposed to be about music! Some times I read these discussions and think that some of you must belong to some sort of cult. Cultic and related authoritarian groups have been known to harm children, physically and psychologically. Not surprisingly, child protection authorities cannot easily measure the scope of the problems these cults pose. Scientific literature on child abuse in cultic groups is almost nonexistent. Official investigations cover only a handful of extreme cases in which the death of a child served as the stimulus to governmental action. Nearly all of the other available information comes from individual court cases, about which newspaper reports are the only readily available sources of information. Nevertheless, on the whole the evidence is sufficiently compelling to warrant examination. Please, people think before you write such hostile statements!
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Tunes!
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
WTF!????
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by bb
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Errrrrr...a windup, maybe?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
I watched and sat back for the most of the time while these threads are in the workings and I have found a trend and its the same one that I have seen so many times in real life.
1. The conplainers at sessions tend not to know very much about Ireland, Irish Music, Irish Traditions and Cultures.
2. Bitchy sessions occur outside of Ireland alot more then in Ireland.
Here is the thing that I would like to make clear. To many people learn the music and forget to learn the tradition of playing it. A session in Ireland has been for hundreds of years one of the only places to learn. In times gone by people would go to sessions to try out instruments that they didn't own because they couldn't afford them so the session became and is still a huge learning ground, if that was to change a lot of the soul of the music would be lost, the best players in Ireland learn their music from people and not CDs and in doing so they keep the pulse of the music alive. There is a big difference to a Player learned by CD and one learnt by comrade. Beginners are expected and encouraged to play and learn. Elite musicain sessions are a foreign thing. Nobody has a right to control or judge others at an improptu or other wise session. There is more to Irish Music than the music itself and people should learn that as it is very important to do so. The impression given on this site on certain threads would give beginners from other countries that ye are not welcome, this goes again'st everything Irish Music and Ireland as country stands for. People who decide to play Irish music are welcome to do so but are expected and at least owe it to Ireland to learn the tradition and the culture of the music as well. having a big snotty nose and an attitude problem is not part of it.
Pehaps by studing how the music is handed down will give people more of an idea as to what a session is really about. Its about helping, passing on not just music, but style and culture in stories, dances and songs and tunes. The music is part of this but only part and this is where a lot go wrong.
Threads like this seem ok to me and I don't know why they would be pulled as it is about the subject at hand ie. Music. I think to leave these treads would stop the tunes section getting cluttered up.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Of course, some of the most vicious slaggings I've ever seen behind other players' backs have been in Ireland by very Irish players. So, I suppose you could say that people are just about the same everywhere: they come in all sorts.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Zina, I find most Irish players quite the other way. I find that Irish players will tell you to your face in no uncertain terms when needed and often do it without due consideration to ones feelings. I find that other nationalities do the back stabbing.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
So it all sugars off to personal preference: a spit in the eye or a shiv in the spine. Session goers are advised to wear stylish safety glasses and kevlar undergarments. Have a blast!
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by ∅
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
John, I think it was in Ireland that I first realized that there could be different sessions for different levels of playing. I would enjoy watching and listening to a session with advanced players in one place, and then just down the road there would be a full of folks learning the music in another place. I understand and appreciate the difference between learning music from a CD as opposed to learning from people, but are you suggesting that all sessions should be prepared to change what they're doing in order to accommodate learners regardless of what the session was before the learners arrived? Personally I think learners should be welcome at sessions because you do learn a lot just by watching and listening. But, as a person learning, I wouldn't expect any session I encountered to suddenly stop what they're doing and start playing my tunes and helping me learn. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that's kind of what you're suggesting... is it?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
No not like that, we are all learning and that has to said. The session itself does not need changing, only certain attiudes. Learners and sessions are tradition and that is really what I mean,t. The session should not come to grinding halt to accommodate learners but it should not be a stage for a chosen (self chosen) few either. Learners sit and watch and more importantly listen to the styles of the players and will in time develop. But it is the way that the music has been handed on for a very long time and modern players tend not to acknowledge this at all, as I said above there is more to Irish music than the music itself and I really feel that people learning it should also learn this too. The Session is bigger than the musicains that play at it and has a history a lot longer than the oldest player that has ever lived and a true understand of what an Seisiún is about is really needed. Perhaps if people learnt this it would bring a great reduction in problematic sessions.
When people learn their music and style through a session they show signs of a deeper understanding for the music and indeed the nationalily it represents.
So the answer, the session need no changing, but the people who play at them need an understanding as to what a session is and represent and then they need to start complying rather then trying to change long established traditions. Lets face it, would an Irish person get a way with trying to change the tradition of classical music or chineese music? or would they even try?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Ok, thanks for the clarification. To me the common denominator with session problems still boils down to people coming to an existing session and forcing their own standards on it. I think this still causes problems regardless of how enlightened the players at the session are in relation to their understanding of the tradition. I'm always hoping these discussions will at least give readers food for thought on how they might approach sessions they visit.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Very true, I think it is very important that issues like this keep getting the headlines. If people don't know the approach to proper session playing then how are they going to find out about it if threads like this and others keep getting the bullet.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Hi BB!
Great response to your point since I last wrote.
Won't be able to meet with you, but will make sure we do get together sometime.
And in defence of the session etiquette of this site, I'd like to publicly thank you and the others on this site who emailed when I first joined, it really was a special time for me!
And since then when others have had things happen, as we all know little messages get back, just as they would in a real session where people take the time to be people, and not robotic tunesmiths.
Brianx
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Reading Jack and Compaqjohn's posts above, I think a penny finally dropped for me! Jack often comes on here and gets very frustrated when he makes what seems to be a very reasonable statement, which is that sessions should not be expected to accommodate visitors, but that visitors should respect the form of the session they are visiting. On the face of it, no one should disagree with this, but it always ends up with everyone falling out. Why is this?
Might I suggest that it is because of a very small, but crucial difference between sessions in different places which are failing to be understood. Maybe in parts of America, say, there are 'professional level' sessions, and slow or 'learning' sessions. The American approach may sometimes (and I'm picking my words carefully here) be more rigid and heirarchical (respecting of rules?) than say in Ireland, where maybe the integrity of a session might be maintained more by respect towards the leaders of that session (a subtle difference but I think an important one). So - you're man (Jack, say) goes to Ireland and sees 'a session with advanced players in one place, and then just down the road there would be a full of folks learning the music in another place', and assumes that these two different sessions equate to the two different levels of sessions discussed in America. However, they are slightly different, and the boundaries are more blurred than in American sessions (I know this is a bit of a gross generalisation). I've seen youngsters and learners happily accepted in to quite powerful sessions in Ireland, without any sign that they feel 'in awe' of the core of the session, and I've seen famous players quite happily playing (not just with the aim of 'teaching') in very basic sessions. I don't think this is as common across the Atlantic, for a whole variety of reasons. There are less opportunities for sessions obviously because there are a smaller proportion of the population that even know that Irish music exists, let alone play it(!) One of the results is that sessions need to be protected more from rapacious attacks by marauding bluegrass players and Celtic Wannabees. But I can't help feeling that the culture is different in the States in terms of a general tendency to compartmentalise more, and because of the extreme culture of the individual, and worship of 'Stars', in whatever field. I think that is why bluegrass (flashy soloing) is big, and olde-timey (friendly ensemble playing) is small(?) The result is that I don't think that I would hesitate to ask to sit in at virtually any session in Ireland, whereas I might be quite intimidated at the idea of approaching some US sessions.
All in all a lot of generalisations, I know, but I'm trying to put my finger on something that is definitely there, but is difficult to pin down.
Mark
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
i think you're onto the right track there, ottery.
had the same impession.
respect is the key-word i guess, (and "knowing your place"?)
mm
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by MM
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Just a minor point: sessions have only been around for about 50 years; the music itself has been around for a lot longer.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Hear hear, John. Well said. And I think you're onto something too, Mark. Also, grumbling about who is ruining things for everbody else seems to be a North American tradition as well. It's way more fun in Ireland when somebody clueless shows up and makes a mess of things.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
You're absolutely right, Ottery, the circumstances outside of Ireland are very different. Ireland has had a lot more time to adjust to this 50 year old session tradition, (as Conán points out,) and the concentration of great players is much higher. Many of the negative situations that occur in Ireland happen when visitors from other countries unknowingly disturb what's going on. Not everybody, and especially people who have recently become interested, have had the opportunity to go to Ireland and witness for themselves these sorts of things -- so they blunder into sessions with the best intentions only to disturb the flow of tunes and fun. This forum is one place where readers can gain insight into all the different ways that ITM is shared and provide a road map of sorts to help make everyone's experience more gratifying and enjoyable.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Yes, Jack, I think that’s it. It’s to do with respect and actually coming to the session with an understanding of the nature of the beast. Also in England and America, there are ‘other’ session traditions, and people blundering in from Bluegrass sessions, Singarounds, and English music sessions frequently don’t understand the different dynamic of an Irish session. Plus maybe the cultural differences I was trying to fel my way into above...
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
It's useful to look at your predecesors when starting up a session, to pick up ideas how to help it run smoothly and avoid common problems. But beyond that I'm not sure I understand why it matters to people outside of Ireland how sessions operate in Ireland. For several reasons. (Mind you, I'm biased because I live in the States, and I haven't been to Ireland since 1964, when I clung to my Dad's back as we pedaled around counties Roscommon and Galway
.
First, according to Hammy Hamilton, who did his Ph.D. on the history of sessions, sessions originated in WWII era London. Mick Moloney (also an avid historian of the music and sessioning) cites pub sessions among Irish immigrants in NYC and Chicago before WWII as a probable beginning of the session idea. Either way, it seems that London, NYC, Chicago, and perhaps Boston could lay claim to a longer "tradition" and experience with the ins and outs of sessions and might be better places to look for models of session operations and etiquette (if that's what you're after). Of course, those ex-pat traditions no doubt incorporated parts of the culture from back home, but in bringing the session idea back to Ireland, no doubt some Yank and Brit cultural influences--or urban influences at the least--were dragged along.
In short, sessions are not some purely homegrown, ancient idea that one culture alone has dibs on. They've certainly taken root and flourished in Ireland, but elsewhere as well. I'm not sure you can say one approach is more authentic than any other.
Second, long-running local sessions tend to develop their own local mores and customs. Every session I've ever been to is different from it's neighbors near and far. They run the gamut from laidback, wide-ranging parties to formal almost gig-like performances, with a little of everything nuanced in between. Some obviously try to mimic how they think sessions operate in Ennis or Doolin or Westport, and that's okay, if that's what the participants want to do. But most sessions reflect the talents and preferences of the local participants themselves.
So it seems to me that the session is a very broad, diverse, young tradition--which makes it very difficult to generalize about. If there's one thing that sessions have in common it's that they're all different.
My experience of sessions on the East and West coasts of the US, suggests that few if any of Mark's generalizations are accurate. Not that he didn't make a valiant effort to move our understanding forward.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Mark, I've noticed that hero-worship thing you've mentioned does spill over into the music. We might look down our noses at Shania Twain and scoff at the ridiculous people who admire her, but still we speak the names of certain ITM musicians in hushed and reverent tones and are skittish as hell to plop ourselves down next to them at their sessions. (How COULD we! The SHEER AUDACITY!) And we tend to all get mad at each other when we mention we might have done this once or twice. Don't know if it's jealousy or just a natural aversion to having the pedestal jostled. If I mention I went to, say, a Dannu session, I often pick up these vibes of "Well, that was awfully disrespectful of you and you must have ruined it."
Which is a silly attitude, in my opinion. If you play this type of music long enough you're bound to bump into everyone sooner or later and you'll have a better time if you haven't got all kinds of delusions that they are magical, special, wise, and somehow different from the rest of us, and that they are going to consider talking to the likes of you a complete waste of time, but that's all right because you'll probably embarass yourself anyway, so you suppose you'll just hang out with the punters at the bar and tell all your friends you saw Mairead ni Moinaigh (or however you spell it) walk into a session once...
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Well Will, I was aware that I was opening myself up to a charge of excessive generalisation ... I was really trying to explore why it might be that Jack and Compaq seemed to be agreeing, but disagreeing at the same time. I know that American sessions are very varied, and that sessions as we now know them probably started in Camden Town and Boston. I was really just flailing around trying to put my finger on something that I picked up from the discussion above - and I've still not got it pinned down! -Maybe it'll just have to go in the log of 'valiant efforts' and it'll never get past the tip of my tongue....
I would point out in my defence that I didn't at any time make any value judgements about the 'authenticity' or otherwise of any sort of session.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Kerri, on the flip side, I think American heros have more of an expectation to be worshipped. And that they themselves may try to separate themselves from the communities. (I know this is a generalization and do not wish to offend the lovely people in this country who are open and wonderfully supportive.)
Also, I respectfully agree to disagree with Will and perhaps Jack at the same time. Having been lucky enough to attend Irish sessions, I think they are as a rule more consistent than sessions in the States. (Consistent across the country, meaning the session style is similar in Belfast, Ennis and Cork.) They are a great model and I think that all Irish Traditional music sessions worldwide should mimic those sessions.
This is not to say that there is not room for variety. However, there is definitely a model that I have in mind when I think of a great session.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Sorry, I meant to say that I think Mark was really on track with what he is saying above.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
"... I think that all ITM sessions worldwide should mimic those sessions."
Yikes!
Sounds like the opening sales pitch for a home video of these sessions of which you speak - "...for the benefit of those who have never been to Ireland and have no intention of ever going, these tapes will to help perfect their mimicry, thus lending their own sessions that magical flavour of authenticity that naturally occurs on the green Isle..."
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Such a horrible thing, to want to play Irish Traditional Music and to do it in a way that countless wonderful players are doing it in the country from which the music comes.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
I think getting the accent down will take some time...
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Yep, Jode, I can think of a great session model, too, with a whole list of ideal features. But I've seen those happen in the States as well. Even here in the boondocks. We've had some visitors from Cork, Galway, Donegal, and Clare, and they've all said they were stunned to find a cranking session "just like home" here in Montana. So I suppose i agree with your larger point. I'm just not too keen on narrowly type-casting all state-side sessions (or all UK sessions, or even all Ireland sessions) one way or the other.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
If Julia Roberts can do it....
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Will, I guess we can agree to agree then. Because, despite what I have said above (and how Kerri interpreted it), I hate strict rules and generalizations.
I went to a session in Donegal town once that was hilariously unlike other sessions in Ireland. Even so, we had a fabulous time at it. I would not, however, hold it in my head as an ideal session.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
OK, lets move away from american sessions, which I'm not really qualified to comment on, though you might apply what I'm about to say to them if you think fit.
I have been to lots and lots of varied sessions in England, and a fair few in Ireland. I have often thought that sessions in England, (With a few notable exceptions) could do with a printed set of 'rules' stuck up on the wall, both for the benefit of newcomers, and those who have been around for a while and should really know better(!) This is something that has been bandied around here in a tongue in cheek fashion for years.
I can't think of ANY session in Ireland that I've been to where I've thought the same thing.
Why is that?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
One other thing. I am not saying that all sessions outside of Ireland are crap. And I am not saying that people in Montana or Argentina cannot have a great session.
I am saying that I agree with John and Mark in that one should not only be aware of the music, but of the context and culture.
Afterall, arguing about location does not really matter. Who were the people who started the sessions in London and Boston and Chicago? Were they, as a rule, anything other than Irish or first generation immigrants? Did they not have the culture and the context?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Exactly, Jode. But the context included being immigrants.
I wonder if we've seen a shift over the 60-70 life of sessions, from a beginning where the participants were not long-time locals (because they'd all fairly recently arrived there from somewhere else), to today, where many good sessions have a long local history, based in part on the same participants--long-time friends, neighbors, and musical partners in many cases--coming down to the same pub for years and years. Surely that would create a different context and social dynamic than a handful of strangers--Kerrymen and Sligo and Co. Down ex pats--sitting down in a Camdentown pub in 1946 to suss out what tunes they might have in common.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
In London's case, they were, and (in the main) still are
And there's still the same diversity of sessions 
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Just a person
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Um, is it just me, or have all the Irish people with extensive in-country experience of sessions left the room?
That should tell us something, eh? *grin*
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Sorry, Jode, I'm not trying to twist your ideas up on purpose, just amusing myself with imaginary marketing ploys inspired by that one line about mimicry. I'm fortunate to be living in a place with a throbbing musical heartbeat all of its own here in the new world. We play a lot of Irish stuff, but also Quebecois, Cape Breton, Scottish, Welsh, Breton, and even a few Scandanavian tunes here without studiously mimicking any of these different cultures, but somehow it still fits together perfectly fine, 90 per cent of the time.
I wouldn't trade the chaotic, step-dancing, fly-swatting, foot tapping, nearly-free-beer swilling sessions in Montreal for a perfect model of an Ennis session no matter how much you paid me (although I'm thrilled to have the choice.)
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Sorry, I thought someone mentioned London ... I'll get my coat
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Just a person
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
And Will, I've noticed myself that the few Irish folks who actually participate in these chats always bail out at the first hint of the "What sessions should be like" debate. Sometimes after giving us a little head-shaky lecture like compaqjohn's heartfelt soliloquy above...
... so it's not just you.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Re: Jode's "culture and context" -- a session in Montana or Argentina can't hope to truly re-create an Irish culture and context, because they're surrounded by a whole 'nuther culture and context. So even if they tried, it would be the proverbial round peg in the quare (sic) hole and you'd still end up with people who need the "rules" explained to them.
Of course, even in Ireland they run into people at sessions who need the rules explained to them. They call them tourists.
Which reminds me, Montanan's have a bumper sticker that reads: "If they call it tourist *season,* why can't we hunt them?"
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Actually, I'll bet the reason they aren't paying attention is that they don't give a poop whether we model our sessions on theirs or not. In fact, I bet they wish we wouldn't - I bet they wish we'd come up with our own tunes and dances and quit arguing about theirs.
;^)
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Kerri, would you still call that an Irish Traditional Music session then?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Will, you are right about context and culture...either you bring the water to the horse or the horse to the water. In either case, hopefully the horse cares, is thirsty, and has a decent memory.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
I'm not required to call it anything. It's just where I go Monday nights. I don't hear anyone in Ireland calling their sessions "Irish Traditional Music Sessions" either, if we're still talking about mimicry... ;^)
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
"Padraig, let's swing by the pub te check out the craic at de Oirish Tr'ditional Music Session!"
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Heh, Jode, that reminds me of another quip that busted everyone up at a public meeting on land use: "You can lead a county commissioner to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
Which is too often at the root of problems when someone unfamiliar with sessions shows up. You can try to help them understand what behaviors aren't appropriate (for that specific session), but you can't always get their voluntary compliance. Human nature I suppose. Isn't that why they have police at soccer matches?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Lol, Kerri, we didn't plan this (did we?), but I like this good cop/bad cop routine we have going. Poor Jode.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Hey...now you were the one to use the quotes there, not me! Zina will be after you now.
I was not trying for a dig there, just saying that sometimes we cross lines in talking about a session. Wait till the Scots awake.
But to put all my blather in context, I was referring to Irish traditional music sessions. And if the publicans didn't refer to them as such, how would the tourists find them?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Jode, in the absence of emoticons on your last sentence, I'll take it that you're being earnest there. But you'll have a hard time convincing me that the sessions for tourists (which are often paid gigs for a handful of players) are anything like the native sessions in Ireland.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
The publicans don't refer to them as such. They just refer to it as "music". Or sometimes if a tourist seems particularly confused about what kind of music to expect in the corner of an Irish pub in Ireland, they will say "*Irish* music."
I guess since I live in Quebec, none of the sessions I go to are Irish Traditional Music sessions. They are "Quebecois Traditional Music Sessions" where Irish tunes are played. And the sessions I went to in Calgary were "Calgarian Traditional Music Sessions" where Irish tunes were played.
There are a few purists trying to carve out a little Donegal embassy in some corner of Montreal and I wish them the best, but secretly I beleive they are doomed to fail, as the city is teeming with stellar Quebecois musicians who learned their tunes on their grandaddy's knees who absolutely do not understand what the big deal is about Irish Traditional Music Sessions, and they will inevitably turn up and "ruin" things by reminding those who would rather be in Ireland that we are actually in Quebec.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Sorry, I am not hip to emoticons! But you can happen across good sessions in Ireland that have a sign posted out front:
"Tonight: Live Irish Traditional Music!"
I think that the Ovens session (RIP) in Cork City used to be that way. It was a hosted session (paid), but was always rip roaring and nicely attended by locals and blow-ins.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
OK, OK, you win, Jode. Next time I go, I'll have to stop musicians on the street and say "Hey, I'm looking for an Irish Traditional Music Session, can you help me out?" That way I'll fit right in!
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
You know, I've been to Montreal, and I know they don't call them Quebecois Traditional Music Sessions there! And I am sure they must not play Welsh tunes at all. What are you on about altogether?
; ^) Did I do that right?
In case the thread ended here, I just wanted to make it full circle since I have never been north of the border.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Jode
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Well, that guy with the Northumbrian pipes might be playing Northumbrian tunes, now that I think about it... I personally wouldn't know a Welsh tune from a Klingon lullabye.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Also, winks are for joking, not lying.
;^D
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
What if I'm joking by lying?
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
When you're in Ireland and you see a sign that says: "Tonight: Live Irish Traditional Music!" -- odds are good that's what you're going to get. However, if you see a sign that says, "Irish Stew" -- don't order it. %-P
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
lol, Jack.
Actually, that's a lie. More of a "mirthful nasal exhalation" than a "laugh out loud".
so, mne then.
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Zina, maybe you need one of these ;^) ...x
(The ex is to show you have your fingers crossed)
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Oh, at first I thought you meant maybe a nose. ;) Sometimes I wish i had more of a schnoz instead of this round flat lambie nose kind of thing.
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
no the ^ is my nose. I look better in profile.
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
I like your profile, David, (speaking of looking good in profile). Succinct. I've been embellishing mine lately.
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Heh, yes, it's been fun reading, Ker... Yeah, why've you taken the bit off about hanging off of steeples around England, David? Those pictures give me goosebumps every time. (I've mentioned that I'm really bad around heights, right?)
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
How come nobody's ever afraid of lows?
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Well, I don't actually like being out on the open ocean, because I'm not fond of thinking of what all's under there. Does that count?
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
see what you started there BB!! go on ye girl ye!
When you back over to visit us?!
Laura
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Britney Spears
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
With all that scuba diving I did over Christmas I know what's under there, Zina - it's lovely and harmless. Just a bunch of coral and pretty coloured fishies. All living in perfect peace and harmony amid the wreckage of a bunch of shattered, decaying boats just like the one you're floating in... just make sure you don't touch anything... my arm is still burning and it's been three weeks... I wonder if I should see somebody about that...
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
And nobody EVER asks if the fish get out of the water to use the bathroom.
# Posted on January 12th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Laura! How you going misses?? I'll be back over in July for Willie Week, so gear up cause twill be another big one I'm sure. Are you and Crossey going?
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by bb
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Right so, the session that ye refer to as starting in the 40,s is that of the pub session, when the music went into a public house. That started in Dublin, London and Manchester and not Boston. But Boston did come soon afterwards.
An Seisiún means a lot of different things to different people in Ireland, but can include the following
A session of drink, A session of music, a Session of dance, story telling Sean Nos singing and dancing.
The word "An Seisiún" can refer to music and dance played in a house, a barn, at a crossroads, on the back of truck at fleadh time. Mr PhD is refering to the 1940's pub sessions and nothing else, the impression given above by a few is that Irish people only started playing togeather in groups in the 40's. What CRAP. The thing to know and remember is that it really does not matter where or what the venue is, the culture is still Irish and nothing can change that. I people have always played togeather and the requirements have been the same. I may have gone into a pub but the same tact is required. Sessions in the states are nothing like sessions in Ireland , Scotland, England and Wales. There is simply to much difference between the two countries in lifestyle, education and work. Im not saying they are bad, only completely different and I don't care much for them. Of course I am biased
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
BB, does a bear sh*t in the woods? of course my partner in crime is going! looking forward to it, give us a shout closer to the time, Im on the same mobile number. hope you're keeping well, and still fiddling away i hope!!
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Britney Spears
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
Gosh, John, that's a pretty sweeping statement. Congratulations on having been to all of the sessions in the US! That must be some kind of record!
I'm certainly glad you aren't talking about Canada. I've been getting fonder and fonder of this country's traditional music history and diversity ever since I rolled east of Alberta.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Dont you just hate it when.........
When someone comes in late and plays a tune I don't care for that's been played already that session, especially if he/she plays it indifferently three times through...I just sit there counting, "AA,BB,AA - when's this going to end?" - But I'll have been guilty myself.
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by nicholas