If you mean learning tunes from the elderly, then I can relate to what you're talking about. I was befriended by an old-time fiddler who's in his late 70s. I've been learning lots of tunes off of him but he's always complaining how he can't play that well anymore. Could have fooled me!
The thing about not being able to play too well is typical of people of that generation and earlier. When I used to go to Teelin with Tommy Byrne ( Dermots father) to listen to and play with Con cassidy, he was always reticent but in the evening when we called to collect him, he would be in a 3 piece suite
complaining about his health. One day we passed his house in the afternoon and he was striding across the field carrying an enormous ladder. Tommy stopped the car and said to me,
'now we've got him' . At that moment Con stopped and waited for us to join him and when Tommy said 'You seem to be in great form today', Con said,'Tommy, I was just wondering if
I'd make it back to the house'. You can't win....
John "the Yank" Harrington was a box player born in Ireland who lived to be 101 in Butte, Montana. Passed away just a year or so ago. He played right up through his 90s and that way gave some of his tunes to the local players. People made recordings of their own, and John also played for one or two commercial recordings.
His cousin, "Dublin" John Harrington, came across the pond for the Yank's 100th birthday. Dublin John spent an evening with our session in Helena, gracing us with wonderful sean nos songs. Some of these have stayed in the local repertoire.
In the summer of 1969, together with 3 other musicians from London, I visited the Stella Maris old folks home in Lisdoon Varna.
We reckoned that, in that area, there must have been quite a few old musicians living in the home. We thought it would be interesting to hear them play and, at the same time, we could entertain the old folks there.
We called at the home and explained our idea to the nuns. They were delighted and organised a tea and sandwiches get together in the lounge.
All the residents were invited to join in or listen to the music.
After we'd played a bit, an old gentleman approached us with a fiddle. He was Jimmy Mulqueeny, member of the original Kilfenora Ceili Band. His fiddle was wildly out of tune and there wasn't a lot we could do about it because none of us were fiddle players. Playing strictly in tune with each other didn't have that much importance for the older players.
Anyway, we managed to coax it into a reasonably playable tone, and Jimmy played like a demon. He had a seemingly endless repertoire.
Another very old inmate was Patty Flanagan who was in his nineties. He was a concertina player from Doolin and was one of the early teachers of the Russell brothers. He taught Packie to play the concertina. Patty didn't have an instrument so I lent him my concertina and, although arthritis and old age had taken their toll, you could still hear that swing that musicians who are used to playing for dancers always seem to have.
We were worried about Patty because he had a large hooked nose and a lighted cigarette permanently sticking out of his mouth. How the end of his nose didn't make contact with the lighted end of the cigarette remained a mystery.
It even added a degree of excitement to his playing !
Interesting too was the repertoire of these old players; tunes like The Garden of Daisies, The Verse of Vienna (as they called it), The Blackbird, The Heathery Breeze, The Wind that Shakes the Barley, The Copperplate....all the oldies !
Another old gent gave us some recitations:
Michael O'Dwyer of the Glen, The Fireman's Wedding, The Irish Jubilee.
There was another old concertina player, Jimmy Scanlon, an ex RIC man.
Later, the nuns gave us permission to take Jimmy Mulqueeny down to the session at Gus O'Connors in Doolin provided we got him home at a reasonable time. Jimmy was delighted as he hadn't been to Doolin for several years. A great time was had by all, and we got Jimmy home on time !
I recorded some of the music at the Stella Maris on one of the new fangled cassette recorders of the time.
It doesn't have much musical value mainly due to my non-existant recording and editing skills at the time, and the general cacophony of the instruments, but I suppose it has some worth as a sociological/historical document.
I sometimes regret that we never repeated the experience with other old folks homes. It's a good way of giving pleasure to the aged and, in many cases, infirm residents of the homes; and you never know how many old musicians may be living in these places.
A great way to connect with the tradition and have the feeling that you're really doing something to keep it alive and pass it on.
P.S. If any of the Dublin members of thesession know Frank Slockett (Flute and whistle), he will remember the occasion at the Stella Maris and may well remember other details that I have forgotten.
What a great story, murf. And what a great thing to do.
I used to sit in a session here in Edinburgh with an old chap from Orkney. I know his tone and technique weren't the greatest - I doubt they ever had been, but he was a great source of tunes - Scots, Irish, Shetland, Orcadian - and there was a great style to the way he played them. He also had great clarity and intonation - which made him very easy to learn from. It was almost impossible to play something he didn't know. After a while I realised that was because he could learn something off the first time he heard it. This was great, because I could play something really obscure one week (that even he hadn't heard) and be sure that the next week he'd be right in there playing it with me.
I still often think of him and miss him. He's long gone, of course.
Mike,
You probably remember me from the time I met you in Craon near Bordeaux. I know we talked a lot about old tunes that weekend but obviously we didn't have time to go far enough.
Would Patty Flanagan have been the grandfather of Eugene and Buddy? or great grandfather? I used to go to a lot of strange places with Eugene, at the time he was an apprentice coffin maker and had a 90 year old head on a 19 year old body.
Buddy's claim to fame was that one time he received a letter from America that was addressed to :- Buddy Flanagan
Spoons Player, Ireland. Packie never really talked much about Patty, his main thesis was 'Zozimus'.
Kris
How long ago would this have been, do you think there could be others around? It's important not to edit tapes, I made that mistake in so far musichall songs were concerned in a traditional repertoire and have regretted it ever since .
Somehow, despite being an Irish mining town, Butte was home to few (if any other than John) traditional musicians back in his day.
I'll have to dig a bit to find the biography they did of John, and I can ask a whistle player in Butte who knew John well if he knows anything. And I'll report back here. But don't hold your breath--it may take a few weeks.
I think there is at least one member here who lives around Ennis. If you are reading this I wonder if you know or knew Gerry Eagan (that might be spelt wrongly), he is/was a box player and fiddler that had also played saxophone in the dancebands of the 40's and 50's.
Strange as it may seem the asylum sometimes comes up trumps, I made a couple of contacts in asylums, it wasn't possible to hear them each time I visited because of their illnesses but they did play for me 3 or 4 times, no strange tunes but competant musicians.
Yes, Ian, I do remember you from that musical weekend in Craion (?sp). It was memorable and I still have the poster at home !
I don't know if Patty Flanagan was an ancester of Buddy and Eugene, but the key to it would be if they come from, or had any connections with, Doolin.
If they are connected to Doolin (Patty was from Doonador, the same townland as the Russells) then they would almost certainly be related to Patty whom I've seen mentioned in at least one article about Clare music (but I can't remember where) as Patrick Flanagan.
Experts on Clare music such as Barry Taylor or Jim Carroll would probably know something about Patty Flanagan. Another source would be, I think, Michael Tubridy.
Packie Russell, as you say, never said much about Patty. In fact, deciphering Packie's oracle-like utterances was an art in itself !
He would play a few bars of a tune, stop, look into the distance and say in a faraway voice,
"She leaned over the half door" and you'd be left wondering if it was the name of a tune (Geraldine King sings a song of that name) or a half forgotten romance. I've often thought there was a story of unrequited love behind the enigma that was Packie Russell.
I met Michael Tubridy and his wife in Lussac-Les-Chateaux this year, what an interesting couple. They were there as musician and stepdance teacher, but they also sang a few songs. I did the 'Broomdance' that saturday night for the first time in 20 years, at the end I was shattered but never missed a step.
Did you ever hear of a dance called 'An (Gowran) Bui', I've put that in brackets because i can't remember the Irish for goat.
It was a dance done with 2 belts laid on the floor like the Scottish Sword Dance? One time in Fintown, Donegal, a man in the pub told me he would do it, took off his own belt and borrowed another from the man sitting next to him, he asked me to play a highland and off he went. Six or seven steps into the dance his trousers fell down...... red faced he left the room
and didn't come back. To this day I have never again been able to find anyone who knew it.
Do you remember another of Packie's favourite lines:-
If there was ever more than one Bodhran player in the session he would pack up in the middle of a tune and say 'There's too many Russian Hats in here I'm off for a pint'.
Those are great stories, Ian !
The Descending Trouser Dance and Packie's Wit and Wisdom.
I can't spell the Irish word for goat, but the pronunciation is something like "pooka"
Ian - he plays old time music. Appallacian fiddle music I guess you could call it. He was born in Cape Breton but for some reason he gravitated towards the old country style (I love some of the waltzes that I've learned off of him). However he still knows quite a few old scottish strathspeys and the like.
Ian - that was back in the early/mid 80s. If there are others around you won't likely be finding them on the trendy Edinburgh session scene, I suspect.
I don't get out much, anyway.
Next thing I know, somebody'll probably be shoving a tape recorder at me. (It's a sure sign they think you're on the way out, you know!)
Does he talk about the people he used to play with, what happened to them, anecdotes. The music and/or song are important but sometimes they have a way telling things that is almost lost in this and perhaps the last generation.
I once spent 2 weeks travelling around donegal with an Artificial Insemnation man visiting farmers all over the western part and while he was up to his armpit in the cows backside I would be talking to the farmers about songs. I made an appointment to go back to record one of them, but unfortunately he'd contracted 'flu in the meantime and was in bed muffled up to the eyeballs. However I left the tape running
and ended up with two hours of accounts of 'The Evil Eye' and fairy trees. you never know....
Irish for "goat" is "gabhar" (pronounced "GOW-er"). "Puca" (with a fada over the "u"...not sure how to do that here) is actually a kind of goblin, but also refers to a billygoat!
Old Folks
Old Folks
This is really an afterthought from yesterdays discussion.
Has anyone experience of collecting tunes or songs from old folks homes?
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Old Folks
If you mean learning tunes from the elderly, then I can relate to what you're talking about. I was befriended by an old-time fiddler who's in his late 70s. I've been learning lots of tunes off of him but he's always complaining how he can't play that well anymore. Could have fooled me!
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by natharious
Re: Old Folks
The thing about not being able to play too well is typical of people of that generation and earlier. When I used to go to Teelin with Tommy Byrne ( Dermots father) to listen to and play with Con cassidy, he was always reticent but in the evening when we called to collect him, he would be in a 3 piece suite
complaining about his health. One day we passed his house in the afternoon and he was striding across the field carrying an enormous ladder. Tommy stopped the car and said to me,
'now we've got him' . At that moment Con stopped and waited for us to join him and when Tommy said 'You seem to be in great form today', Con said,'Tommy, I was just wondering if
I'd make it back to the house'. You can't win....
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Old Folks
Natharious
What kind of fiddler is he?
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Old Folks
John "the Yank" Harrington was a box player born in Ireland who lived to be 101 in Butte, Montana. Passed away just a year or so ago. He played right up through his 90s and that way gave some of his tunes to the local players. People made recordings of their own, and John also played for one or two commercial recordings.
His cousin, "Dublin" John Harrington, came across the pond for the Yank's 100th birthday. Dublin John spent an evening with our session in Helena, gracing us with wonderful sean nos songs. Some of these have stayed in the local repertoire.
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Old Folks
In the summer of 1969, together with 3 other musicians from London, I visited the Stella Maris old folks home in Lisdoon Varna.
We reckoned that, in that area, there must have been quite a few old musicians living in the home. We thought it would be interesting to hear them play and, at the same time, we could entertain the old folks there.
We called at the home and explained our idea to the nuns. They were delighted and organised a tea and sandwiches get together in the lounge.
All the residents were invited to join in or listen to the music.
After we'd played a bit, an old gentleman approached us with a fiddle. He was Jimmy Mulqueeny, member of the original Kilfenora Ceili Band. His fiddle was wildly out of tune and there wasn't a lot we could do about it because none of us were fiddle players. Playing strictly in tune with each other didn't have that much importance for the older players.
Anyway, we managed to coax it into a reasonably playable tone, and Jimmy played like a demon. He had a seemingly endless repertoire.
Another very old inmate was Patty Flanagan who was in his nineties. He was a concertina player from Doolin and was one of the early teachers of the Russell brothers. He taught Packie to play the concertina. Patty didn't have an instrument so I lent him my concertina and, although arthritis and old age had taken their toll, you could still hear that swing that musicians who are used to playing for dancers always seem to have.
We were worried about Patty because he had a large hooked nose and a lighted cigarette permanently sticking out of his mouth. How the end of his nose didn't make contact with the lighted end of the cigarette remained a mystery.
It even added a degree of excitement to his playing !
Interesting too was the repertoire of these old players; tunes like The Garden of Daisies, The Verse of Vienna (as they called it), The Blackbird, The Heathery Breeze, The Wind that Shakes the Barley, The Copperplate....all the oldies !
Another old gent gave us some recitations:
Michael O'Dwyer of the Glen, The Fireman's Wedding, The Irish Jubilee.
There was another old concertina player, Jimmy Scanlon, an ex RIC man.
Later, the nuns gave us permission to take Jimmy Mulqueeny down to the session at Gus O'Connors in Doolin provided we got him home at a reasonable time. Jimmy was delighted as he hadn't been to Doolin for several years. A great time was had by all, and we got Jimmy home on time !
I recorded some of the music at the Stella Maris on one of the new fangled cassette recorders of the time.
It doesn't have much musical value mainly due to my non-existant recording and editing skills at the time, and the general cacophony of the instruments, but I suppose it has some worth as a sociological/historical document.
I sometimes regret that we never repeated the experience with other old folks homes. It's a good way of giving pleasure to the aged and, in many cases, infirm residents of the homes; and you never know how many old musicians may be living in these places.
A great way to connect with the tradition and have the feeling that you're really doing something to keep it alive and pass it on.
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by murfbox
Re: Old Folks
P.S. If any of the Dublin members of thesession know Frank Slockett (Flute and whistle), he will remember the occasion at the Stella Maris and may well remember other details that I have forgotten.
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by murfbox
Re: Old Folks
What a great story, murf. And what a great thing to do.
I used to sit in a session here in Edinburgh with an old chap from Orkney. I know his tone and technique weren't the greatest - I doubt they ever had been, but he was a great source of tunes - Scots, Irish, Shetland, Orcadian - and there was a great style to the way he played them. He also had great clarity and intonation - which made him very easy to learn from. It was almost impossible to play something he didn't know. After a while I realised that was because he could learn something off the first time he heard it. This was great, because I could play something really obscure one week (that even he hadn't heard) and be sure that the next week he'd be right in there playing it with me.
I still often think of him and miss him. He's long gone, of course.
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by kris
Re: Old Folks
Mike,
You probably remember me from the time I met you in Craon near Bordeaux. I know we talked a lot about old tunes that weekend but obviously we didn't have time to go far enough.
Would Patty Flanagan have been the grandfather of Eugene and Buddy? or great grandfather? I used to go to a lot of strange places with Eugene, at the time he was an apprentice coffin maker and had a 90 year old head on a 19 year old body.
Buddy's claim to fame was that one time he received a letter from America that was addressed to :- Buddy Flanagan
Spoons Player, Ireland. Packie never really talked much about Patty, his main thesis was 'Zozimus'.
Kris
How long ago would this have been, do you think there could be others around? It's important not to edit tapes, I made that mistake in so far musichall songs were concerned in a traditional repertoire and have regretted it ever since .
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Old Folks
Will,
Did John Harrington talk about people he played with, locally or back home?
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Old Folks
Somehow, despite being an Irish mining town, Butte was home to few (if any other than John) traditional musicians back in his day.
I'll have to dig a bit to find the biography they did of John, and I can ask a whistle player in Butte who knew John well if he knows anything. And I'll report back here. But don't hold your breath--it may take a few weeks.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: Old Folks
I think there is at least one member here who lives around Ennis. If you are reading this I wonder if you know or knew Gerry Eagan (that might be spelt wrongly), he is/was a box player and fiddler that had also played saxophone in the dancebands of the 40's and 50's.
Strange as it may seem the asylum sometimes comes up trumps, I made a couple of contacts in asylums, it wasn't possible to hear them each time I visited because of their illnesses but they did play for me 3 or 4 times, no strange tunes but competant musicians.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Old Folks
Yes, Ian, I do remember you from that musical weekend in Craion (?sp). It was memorable and I still have the poster at home !
I don't know if Patty Flanagan was an ancester of Buddy and Eugene, but the key to it would be if they come from, or had any connections with, Doolin.
If they are connected to Doolin (Patty was from Doonador, the same townland as the Russells) then they would almost certainly be related to Patty whom I've seen mentioned in at least one article about Clare music (but I can't remember where) as Patrick Flanagan.
Experts on Clare music such as Barry Taylor or Jim Carroll would probably know something about Patty Flanagan. Another source would be, I think, Michael Tubridy.
Packie Russell, as you say, never said much about Patty. In fact, deciphering Packie's oracle-like utterances was an art in itself !
He would play a few bars of a tune, stop, look into the distance and say in a faraway voice,
"She leaned over the half door" and you'd be left wondering if it was the name of a tune (Geraldine King sings a song of that name) or a half forgotten romance. I've often thought there was a story of unrequited love behind the enigma that was Packie Russell.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by murfbox
Re: Old Folks
I met Michael Tubridy and his wife in Lussac-Les-Chateaux this year, what an interesting couple. They were there as musician and stepdance teacher, but they also sang a few songs. I did the 'Broomdance' that saturday night for the first time in 20 years, at the end I was shattered but never missed a step.
Did you ever hear of a dance called 'An (Gowran) Bui', I've put that in brackets because i can't remember the Irish for goat.
It was a dance done with 2 belts laid on the floor like the Scottish Sword Dance? One time in Fintown, Donegal, a man in the pub told me he would do it, took off his own belt and borrowed another from the man sitting next to him, he asked me to play a highland and off he went. Six or seven steps into the dance his trousers fell down...... red faced he left the room
and didn't come back. To this day I have never again been able to find anyone who knew it.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Old Folks
Do you remember another of Packie's favourite lines:-
If there was ever more than one Bodhran player in the session he would pack up in the middle of a tune and say 'There's too many Russian Hats in here I'm off for a pint'.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Old Folks
Those are great stories, Ian !
The Descending Trouser Dance and Packie's Wit and Wisdom.
I can't spell the Irish word for goat, but the pronunciation is something like "pooka"
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by murfbox
Re: Old Folks
Ian - he plays old time music. Appallacian fiddle music I guess you could call it. He was born in Cape Breton but for some reason he gravitated towards the old country style (I love some of the waltzes that I've learned off of him). However he still knows quite a few old scottish strathspeys and the like.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by natharious
Re: Old Folks
Ian - that was back in the early/mid 80s. If there are others around you won't likely be finding them on the trendy Edinburgh session scene, I suspect.
I don't get out much, anyway.
Next thing I know, somebody'll probably be shoving a tape recorder at me. (It's a sure sign they think you're on the way out, you know!)
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by kris
Re: Old Folks
Does he talk about the people he used to play with, what happened to them, anecdotes. The music and/or song are important but sometimes they have a way telling things that is almost lost in this and perhaps the last generation.
I once spent 2 weeks travelling around donegal with an Artificial Insemnation man visiting farmers all over the western part and while he was up to his armpit in the cows backside I would be talking to the farmers about songs. I made an appointment to go back to record one of them, but unfortunately he'd contracted 'flu in the meantime and was in bed muffled up to the eyeballs. However I left the tape running
and ended up with two hours of accounts of 'The Evil Eye' and fairy trees. you never know....
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Old Folks
Irish for "goat" is "gabhar" (pronounced "GOW-er"). "Puca" (with a fada over the "u"...not sure how to do that here) is actually a kind of goblin, but also refers to a billygoat!
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by MacTireRua
Re: Old Folks
Thanks for that, I wasn't too far away. I hope I'll be able to remember it now.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Ian Stevenson