Some really great tunes have been submitted recently. It would sure help some of the less experienced groups if guitar chords were included in the "abc" files. Why isn't this done?
It isn't done because the people submitting the tunes aren't providing the chords (which is their perogative).
If you'd like to see some more tunes with guitar chords, that would be great. Just submit new tunes with the guitar chords included. In ABC notation, guitar chords are simply quoted, like this: "G".
Looking forward to seeing your tune submissions. If you have any questions about notating tunes in ABC format, check out the "ABC software" category in the "Links" section of this site:
Personally, I don't submit chords because it would take me ages to figure out what chords might fit. Also, as a has-been guitar player (and now a wanna-be fiddler), I realize that selecting chords for ITM tunes is wide open to personal interpretation--I wouldn't want to suggest that "my" chords are the "right" ones. The chords you choose will reflect the rhythmic style you bring to the tune, and that tends to be pretty individual.
As an aside, I also don't like the way the chord names muddy up the abc notation. And most written sources are notoriously inaccurate at providing chords--be wary of relying on written sources for accompaniment.
In my book, anyone serious about accompanying ITM basically has two approaches to take (and they're not mutually exclusive). (1) Listen to a lot of accompaniment players and echo what they do, and (2) learn the theory and chord structure behind the modes (especially major, minor, and dorian).
I submit very few tunes, but the reason I don't submit chords with the ones I do submit is because...wait for it...I don't know what they are! I have a tough enough time trying to figure out what key the tunes are actually in and Jeremy (who has to correct my mistakes) can attest that I usually guess wrong. I'm supposed to tell an accompanist (whose business it is to figure out those chords according to their own tastes) what to play?! *snort*
These days I cheat. I e-mail Will and ask him what key and mode the damn thing is in before I submit it. *grin*
I'm with you, Zina. I can barely get the notes right, and have never gotten the key correct, putting in chords is right out. Hmm, Will has a key-answering service, eh? Well now, that is good to know. Hey Will, what's the turn around time for getting a key correction? *grin*...
I've often thought of posting a little chart that shows the most common root notes in ITM and the number of sharps or flats, and the corresponding modes. For example, if a tune clearly keeps resolving to an E note, and also features F# and C#, then it's in E dorian. If the C is natural, but the F is still sharp, then you're in E minor.
It would be easy to map out the 24 keys/modes most common in ITM, but such a chart would soon get lost in the ever-shifting discussion dunes....
I've never posted chords with the tunes I submitted because I didn't think we could - I can go back and add them to the tunes I've posted, but there would have to be a caveat that these are just the chords I use, and other folks may well use different ones - as an example, there was a lengthy thread a few months back as to which chords people used for "The Butterfly" - as I recall, there was a LOT of variation on that one, from very basic to a very "jazzy" interpretation by Zina's teachers. So, chords can be posted, but that doesn't mean they're writ in stone...
I think people are reluctant to post tunes with chords because there are so many different possiblities, and there is likely to be disagreement among chord-players as to which ones work and which don't.
One thing which sets ITM (I have finally managed to bring myself to use that loathsome abbreviation!) apart from such musics as Rock, R'n'B, Trad Jazz, Bluegrass and, to a large extent, Classical, is that whereas the primary structural foundation of those musics is harmony - i.e. chord progressions - in ITM it is melody. When a Jazz or Bluegrass player improvises, their improvisation is based around a chord sequence, and does not necessarily bear much relation to the melodic theme they have started from. Irish Traditional musicians, while they may include much improvisation in their playing, rarely depart much from the actual tune - the tune usually remains clearly recogniseable without the aid of any chordal accompaniment. If there is any accompanying musician, such as a guitarist or pianist, they may even find it necessary to alter the chords they play to fit in with the variations which the soloist is playing.
In short, chords in ITM are used more often as a form of embellishment than as a structural element.
We tune players could probably be a bit more co-operative with those that wish to learn to accompany ITM and perhaps give examples of chord patterns that could fit with a particular tunes. It would at least give them a starting point to work from. But when you think of how many tunes there are, each potentially with a different set of chords .... It's not as simple as just listening to the record and learning the chords. Guitarists from a rock/pop background often stick out a mile because they try to impose chord progressions onto the tunes, rather than go in whatever direction the tunes carry them.
The main reason I don't include chords in my postings, aside from laziness, is that, although I have a semi-classical background and have a reasonable understanding of harmony and chords, I know there are a lot of people out there who can back much better than I can, and might be able to suggest chords that would really lift a tune, rather than just fill out the sound.
David's hit it on the head, both in clearly delineating what sets ITM apart from many other genres, and in suggesting the pitfalls of posting chords with tunes. Learning to back these tunes is as complicated as learning the tunes themselves, and few of us can do both equally well.
Why not have some of the more accomplished accompanists among us post chord charts in the comments for tunes they're familiar with? That way, they can add narrative about how they approach the tune, variations, etc.
As a guitarist who has been working on getting the right chords, and backing lots of melody instruments, I can say that most players don't know the chords. Some of the great session players don't even know the notes. In discussions like these there is always the comment that there are "many different choises for chords for a particular tune". The reality is that there are only a few variations and usually one basic (I avoid using the term "right") chord structure. For those who are struggling to back up tunes in sessions here are some tips that helped me. 1. Know the tune and be able to hum it to yourself. This the most important. 2. Know what the last note to the tune is. Not the last note before it goes to another tune in a set, but the last note you would play if you were ending the tune. This is the note that usually depicts the key. 3. There are four keys that a great majority of tunes are played in: G major, D major, A minor and E minor. 4. When hearing a tune try softly playing one of these notes (g, d, e, or a) as a drone note and see which one sounds like it's right. Then, try backing the tune using two basic chords for each of these keys. For the key of G use Gmajor and Dmajor (try to avoid using 7th chords). For key of D use Dmajor and Amajor. For key of Em use Em and Dmajor and for the key of Am use Am and G major. You will hear lots of good chords. The reason to avoid using 7th chords is that the 7th note will clash if it is not quite right. Another great thing I found out is that when you use the fifth chord (that would be the D in the key of G) try not playing the third (that would be the f# in the D chord). You will clash even less. It is hard not to ramble when discussing this but these are a few basic tools that have helped me "fake it" at sessions. Watch out for the keys of A major, Bminor and Dminor. A good book to get is Celtic Back-Up by Chris Smith. A Mel Bay publication. #97205BCD. John Devens
Just to confuse it a little bit more!
When John writes about the four most common keys for accompinament, he's only partly right. A an accompanist you may think that you play in A minor, cos you use the same chords as you would in A minor. BUT there are hardly any tunes in A minor. Instead you're playing a tune in what we call A Dorian. A tune where you accompany in E minor could be a tune in E minor, but is probably a tune in D Dorian!
So, what's the difference between for example A minor and A Dorian? In A minor there are no "black" notes (black as the black keys on a piano). You virtually play a C major, but starts on the A.
In A dorian you have sharpened the F to a F# and are virtually playing a Gmajor scale, but starting from A. It has a strong minor feeling, but isn't strictly a minor scale.
If we forget about the names of scales and simply refers to " do re mi", then a Major scale is the common do re mi, while a Dorian scales starts with Re and a minor scale starts with La. You can start with any of the seven notes in the do re mi, and get one of the "modal scales". ITM works with major, minor, dorian and mixolydian scales. The mixolydian begins with the "So". And almost all tunes work with scales derived from D (two sharps) or G (one sharp), except for a few tunes that are in A major (three sharps), something that is much more common in Scotch music.
Wow, this was a long one!!!
And why did I write it? Probably to give an explanation to all of you who only play melody instruments, that might be confused by reading that A minor is a main scale for accompanist, while you know for shure that you never play any tunes in that scale.
(or maybe just to show how many nice and difficult words I can use )
lars
Drum roll please! Ta daaaaahhhh! Thanks to the effervescent Will Harmon, we now have the following table available for your use in deciphering the mysteries of key signature and mode. But I'll probably still e-mail Will to ask what mode a tune is in, just to annoy him.
Oh, and Will, take a look at http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/learn.html#kinesthetic and tell me what you think. I had several interesting and entertaining conversations with Jesse Langan (Chicago player Tim Langan's brother) at a wedding this weekend, and thought I'd mention this one.
Poor Jesse was suffering from altitude sickness most of the weekend. I kept forcing Gatorade and water down his throat the whole time. (The wedding was held at the Stanley Hotel, which was where The Shining was filmed. It's not quite as out in the middle of nowhere as the movie suggests -- there's a Safeway within walking distance, and downtown, a fifteen minute walk, is filled with tourists just about all year -- so it wsn't too hard to keep him supplied with the neon green liquid as all that.)
A good book that has chords and simple notation (not ornamentated) are the "Music for the sets" books by Brooks academy Set Dancers, available from Na Piobaire Uilleann in Dublin. Handy wee thing if you want to set up a little session from sctratch. I've used it here (Japan) and while not brilliant a good place to start.
Is mise,
Pol MacFionmhacain
What does "is mise" mean, Pol?Anyway, just a note to let everyone know that the key and mode chart can now be found in the link section under "tutorials". Thanks Will!
Probably the reason that there is a lack of tunes with chords posted on this site is that there are more melody players posting tunes than rhythm players. Also, it is true - there is a lot of variation that will work within the same tune. If more rhythm players would post the abcs with the chords they use - the inventory would grow! How about more posts from us rhythm players........
Lars is right when he makes the distinction between minor modes Aoelian and Dorian, but consider this. The basic chords used in both modes are the same. In the key of Am for example, the Am and Gmajor chords are the two most important chords in both modes. In fact, in Irish music, it is rare to use the D major chord in the Am Dorian mode. So rare that I cannot find an example. (I know there are some so please, you need not send in examples.) I have found several where the D makes a great substitue chord just as the Fmajor makes a great substitute in Am Aeolian. The discussion of modes can confuse many people who are just starting out. My original discussion remains very valid for Irish music.
john devens
John, as I mentioned in my post, I wrote this to clarify why you as an accompanist can say that you play in A minor, while a melody player knows for sure that he/she never plays in that key.
I did absolutely not write it to prove that you're wrong. Practically speaking we're both right and I don't disagree with you
lars
Chords and tunes
Chords and tunes
Some really great tunes have been submitted recently. It would sure help some of the less experienced groups if guitar chords were included in the "abc" files. Why isn't this done?
# Posted on May 12th 2002 by Uilleann11
Re: Chords and tunes
It isn't done because the people submitting the tunes aren't providing the chords (which is their perogative).
If you'd like to see some more tunes with guitar chords, that would be great. Just submit new tunes with the guitar chords included. In ABC notation, guitar chords are simply quoted, like this: "G".
Looking forward to seeing your tune submissions. If you have any questions about notating tunes in ABC format, check out the "ABC software" category in the "Links" section of this site:
http://www.thesession.org/links/display.php/6
# Posted on May 12th 2002 by Jeremy
Re: Chords and tunes
Personally, I don't submit chords because it would take me ages to figure out what chords might fit. Also, as a has-been guitar player (and now a wanna-be fiddler), I realize that selecting chords for ITM tunes is wide open to personal interpretation--I wouldn't want to suggest that "my" chords are the "right" ones. The chords you choose will reflect the rhythmic style you bring to the tune, and that tends to be pretty individual.
As an aside, I also don't like the way the chord names muddy up the abc notation. And most written sources are notoriously inaccurate at providing chords--be wary of relying on written sources for accompaniment.
In my book, anyone serious about accompanying ITM basically has two approaches to take (and they're not mutually exclusive). (1) Listen to a lot of accompaniment players and echo what they do, and (2) learn the theory and chord structure behind the modes (especially major, minor, and dorian).
Good luck.
# Posted on May 12th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Chords and tunes
I submit very few tunes, but the reason I don't submit chords with the ones I do submit is because...wait for it...I don't know what they are!
I have a tough enough time trying to figure out what key the tunes are actually in and Jeremy (who has to correct my mistakes) can attest that I usually guess wrong. I'm supposed to tell an accompanist (whose business it is to figure out those chords according to their own tastes) what to play?! *snort*
These days I cheat. I e-mail Will and ask him what key and mode the damn thing is in before I submit it. *grin*
Zina
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Chords and tunes
I'm with you, Zina. I can barely get the notes right, and have never gotten the key correct, putting in chords is right out. Hmm, Will has a key-answering service, eh? Well now, that is good to know. Hey Will, what's the turn around time for getting a key correction? *grin*...
Sosaidh
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: Chords and tunes
Well, that depends on the tune....
I've often thought of posting a little chart that shows the most common root notes in ITM and the number of sharps or flats, and the corresponding modes. For example, if a tune clearly keeps resolving to an E note, and also features F# and C#, then it's in E dorian. If the C is natural, but the F is still sharp, then you're in E minor.
It would be easy to map out the 24 keys/modes most common in ITM, but such a chart would soon get lost in the ever-shifting discussion dunes....
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Chords and tunes
So give it to me and I'll put it up on the SCTLS website and we can link to it! Please oh please oh please?!?
Zina
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Chords and tunes
I've never posted chords with the tunes I submitted because I didn't think we could - I can go back and add them to the tunes I've posted, but there would have to be a caveat that these are just the chords I use, and other folks may well use different ones - as an example, there was a lengthy thread a few months back as to which chords people used for "The Butterfly" - as I recall, there was a LOT of variation on that one, from very basic to a very "jazzy" interpretation by Zina's teachers. So, chords can be posted, but that doesn't mean they're writ in stone...
JeffK
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by JeffK627
Re: Chords and tunes
I think people are reluctant to post tunes with chords because there are so many different possiblities, and there is likely to be disagreement among chord-players as to which ones work and which don't.
One thing which sets ITM (I have finally managed to bring myself to use that loathsome abbreviation!) apart from such musics as Rock, R'n'B, Trad Jazz, Bluegrass and, to a large extent, Classical, is that whereas the primary structural foundation of those musics is harmony - i.e. chord progressions - in ITM it is melody. When a Jazz or Bluegrass player improvises, their improvisation is based around a chord sequence, and does not necessarily bear much relation to the melodic theme they have started from. Irish Traditional musicians, while they may include much improvisation in their playing, rarely depart much from the actual tune - the tune usually remains clearly recogniseable without the aid of any chordal accompaniment. If there is any accompanying musician, such as a guitarist or pianist, they may even find it necessary to alter the chords they play to fit in with the variations which the soloist is playing.
In short, chords in ITM are used more often as a form of embellishment than as a structural element.
We tune players could probably be a bit more co-operative with those that wish to learn to accompany ITM and perhaps give examples of chord patterns that could fit with a particular tunes. It would at least give them a starting point to work from. But when you think of how many tunes there are, each potentially with a different set of chords .... It's not as simple as just listening to the record and learning the chords. Guitarists from a rock/pop background often stick out a mile because they try to impose chord progressions onto the tunes, rather than go in whatever direction the tunes carry them.
The main reason I don't include chords in my postings, aside from laziness, is that, although I have a semi-classical background and have a reasonable understanding of harmony and chords, I know there are a lot of people out there who can back much better than I can, and might be able to suggest chords that would really lift a tune, rather than just fill out the sound.
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Chords and tunes
David's hit it on the head, both in clearly delineating what sets ITM apart from many other genres, and in suggesting the pitfalls of posting chords with tunes. Learning to back these tunes is as complicated as learning the tunes themselves, and few of us can do both equally well.
Why not have some of the more accomplished accompanists among us post chord charts in the comments for tunes they're familiar with? That way, they can add narrative about how they approach the tune, variations, etc.
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Chords and tunes
As a guitarist who has been working on getting the right chords, and backing lots of melody instruments, I can say that most players don't know the chords. Some of the great session players don't even know the notes. In discussions like these there is always the comment that there are "many different choises for chords for a particular tune". The reality is that there are only a few variations and usually one basic (I avoid using the term "right") chord structure. For those who are struggling to back up tunes in sessions here are some tips that helped me. 1. Know the tune and be able to hum it to yourself. This the most important. 2. Know what the last note to the tune is. Not the last note before it goes to another tune in a set, but the last note you would play if you were ending the tune. This is the note that usually depicts the key. 3. There are four keys that a great majority of tunes are played in: G major, D major, A minor and E minor. 4. When hearing a tune try softly playing one of these notes (g, d, e, or a) as a drone note and see which one sounds like it's right. Then, try backing the tune using two basic chords for each of these keys. For the key of G use Gmajor and Dmajor (try to avoid using 7th chords). For key of D use Dmajor and Amajor. For key of Em use Em and Dmajor and for the key of Am use Am and G major. You will hear lots of good chords. The reason to avoid using 7th chords is that the 7th note will clash if it is not quite right. Another great thing I found out is that when you use the fifth chord (that would be the D in the key of G) try not playing the third (that would be the f# in the D chord). You will clash even less. It is hard not to ramble when discussing this but these are a few basic tools that have helped me "fake it" at sessions. Watch out for the keys of A major, Bminor and Dminor. A good book to get is Celtic Back-Up by Chris Smith. A Mel Bay publication. #97205BCD. John Devens
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by John Devens
Re: Chords and tunes
Just to confuse it a little bit more!
)
When John writes about the four most common keys for accompinament, he's only partly right. A an accompanist you may think that you play in A minor, cos you use the same chords as you would in A minor. BUT there are hardly any tunes in A minor. Instead you're playing a tune in what we call A Dorian. A tune where you accompany in E minor could be a tune in E minor, but is probably a tune in D Dorian!
So, what's the difference between for example A minor and A Dorian? In A minor there are no "black" notes (black as the black keys on a piano). You virtually play a C major, but starts on the A.
In A dorian you have sharpened the F to a F# and are virtually playing a Gmajor scale, but starting from A. It has a strong minor feeling, but isn't strictly a minor scale.
If we forget about the names of scales and simply refers to " do re mi", then a Major scale is the common do re mi, while a Dorian scales starts with Re and a minor scale starts with La. You can start with any of the seven notes in the do re mi, and get one of the "modal scales". ITM works with major, minor, dorian and mixolydian scales. The mixolydian begins with the "So". And almost all tunes work with scales derived from D (two sharps) or G (one sharp), except for a few tunes that are in A major (three sharps), something that is much more common in Scotch music.
Wow, this was a long one!!!
And why did I write it? Probably to give an explanation to all of you who only play melody instruments, that might be confused by reading that A minor is a main scale for accompanist, while you know for shure that you never play any tunes in that scale.
(or maybe just to show how many nice and difficult words I can use
lars
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by lars
Re: Chords and tunes
Drum roll please! Ta daaaaahhhh! Thanks to the effervescent Will Harmon, we now have the following table available for your use in deciphering the mysteries of key signature and mode. But I'll probably still e-mail Will to ask what mode a tune is in, just to annoy him.
http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/modes.htm
I shall also post it to the links section of The Session.
Zina
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Chords and tunes
Oh, and Will, take a look at http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/learn.html#kinesthetic and tell me what you think. I had several interesting and entertaining conversations with Jesse Langan (Chicago player Tim Langan's brother) at a wedding this weekend, and thought I'd mention this one.
Poor Jesse was suffering from altitude sickness most of the weekend. I kept forcing Gatorade and water down his throat the whole time. (The wedding was held at the Stanley Hotel, which was where The Shining was filmed. It's not quite as out in the middle of nowhere as the movie suggests -- there's a Safeway within walking distance, and downtown, a fifteen minute walk, is filled with tourists just about all year -- so it wsn't too hard to keep him supplied with the neon green liquid as all that.)
Zina
# Posted on May 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Chords and tunes
A good book that has chords and simple notation (not ornamentated) are the "Music for the sets" books by Brooks academy Set Dancers, available from Na Piobaire Uilleann in Dublin. Handy wee thing if you want to set up a little session from sctratch. I've used it here (Japan) and while not brilliant a good place to start.
Is mise,
Pol MacFionmhacain
# Posted on May 14th 2002 by macfion
Re: Chords and tunes
What does "is mise" mean, Pol?Anyway, just a note to let everyone know that the key and mode chart can now be found in the link section under "tutorials". Thanks Will!
Zina
# Posted on May 15th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Chords and tunes
Hi Zina,
Is mise, is just a semi i formal way of ending a letter, lit. meaning is "I am",
P.
# Posted on May 15th 2002 by macfion
Re: Chords and tunes
Ah -- thanks, Pol!
Beir bua!
Zina
# Posted on May 15th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Chords and tunes
Probably the reason that there is a lack of tunes with chords posted on this site is that there are more melody players posting tunes than rhythm players. Also, it is true - there is a lot of variation that will work within the same tune. If more rhythm players would post the abcs with the chords they use - the inventory would grow! How about more posts from us rhythm players........
Steve
# Posted on May 19th 2002 by Rice-st
Re: Chords and tunes
Lars is right when he makes the distinction between minor modes Aoelian and Dorian, but consider this. The basic chords used in both modes are the same. In the key of Am for example, the Am and Gmajor chords are the two most important chords in both modes. In fact, in Irish music, it is rare to use the D major chord in the Am Dorian mode. So rare that I cannot find an example. (I know there are some so please, you need not send in examples.) I have found several where the D makes a great substitue chord just as the Fmajor makes a great substitute in Am Aeolian. The discussion of modes can confuse many people who are just starting out. My original discussion remains very valid for Irish music.
john devens
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by John Devens
Re: Chords and tunes
John, as I mentioned in my post, I wrote this to clarify why you as an accompanist can say that you play in A minor, while a melody player knows for sure that he/she never plays in that key.
I did absolutely not write it to prove that you're wrong. Practically speaking we're both right and I don't disagree with you
lars
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by lars