I've noticed many ITM players say they like JS Bach over the years. Maybe it's that both Bach & trad music has strings of eight notes, or the melodic nature of his music, or even the fact that his themes fit nicely onto trad instruments. Anyone else here a Bach fan? if so what are your reasons?
I'm a huge Bach fan myself, but I'm not sure I ever thought about why I was such a fan...perhaps it was the organist at the church I grew up in who loved Bach and would often play it before services to warm up. It sure sounds nice on wooden flute, though.
Re-reading that sentence, I didn't actually grow up in the church (I am not Quasimotto despite the rumors and resemblance), but with my father a reader I spent a lot of extra time and the church in my younger years.
I LOVE J.S. Bach's music. Always have. I love the precision and spirit of the stuff, that so much of it seems to contradict itself. I love that it can be as emotional as Mahler, but never lose it's crystalline, mathematical qualities. The little stuff is still some of my favorite music. But how can you not connect with some of the big stuff? (The fugues, my god, the fugues!)
Yep, Bach rules! I'm especially enamored of his solo violin and cello pieces. Amazing he could write such incredible stuff for instruments that he could not play.
I also enjoy Bach tremendously. He is the greatest composer of all time. His music perfectly balances the three parts of music--melody, harmony, and rythm. The man was a genius to put all that counterpoint in its exact place.
I have been recently relishing his four Orchestral suites....awesome! I love the "runs of eighth notes" as well as the sublime largos.
I'm not sure why especially ITM players like him; perhaps it has something to do with the dance music "flavor" of the Baroque period.
~Jonathan
As Bach would put at the end of every manuscript...
I've been listening to Baroque music for longer than ITM. So, I'm very particular about the European music at that time. I do love Bach but hate the classical interpretations of his works. I prefer his works performed by the musicians specialised in early music, not much classical music in general, and played historically "authentic" instruments. I love the smooth and simple sounds of baroque violin or cello, viola da gamba, wooden or ivory flute, but really hate those of classical violin full of vibratos.
I think the playing styles of baroque music are very similar to those of ITM. Avoidance of overuse of vibratos, very relaxed bowing styles, ornamentation techniques, etc. And unlike the music in the later periods, baroque musicians composed loads of dance music. Most of you tend to associate Bach with religious music, but that's a great misunderstanding. He composed tons of secular pieces, derived from the dance tunes of various parts of Europe, including gigue of Ireland. French suites for harpsichord, and cello suites, are good examples.
As for the musicians, I love Kuijken brothers (on violin, viol, and flute), G. Leonhardt, Ton Koopman, Christophe Rousset (harpsichordists), Reinhard Goebel (violinist), Anner Bylsma, Hidemi Suzuki (cellists), Masahiro Arita (baroque flutist), Paolo Pandolfo (amazing viol player), etc. etc. But, Dutch recorder player Frans Brueggen is my hero. (Jack G. would know him.) His simple, passionate playing is the main source of inspiration for my whistle and flute playing.
Likewise. Even though a couple of my favourite tunes ever, namely Whiter shade of pale and Jethro Tull's Bourée, are in fact "covers", I was not much of a Bach fan until my fiddle teacher obliged me to learn a Bach minuet (transposed for violin from the solo cello suites), to get me to slow down deliberately and take a more careful approach. He said that, like excellent food, which is nice to eat even when it's cold, excellent music is still excellent even when you play it slow. He is, of course, quite right and the experience kindled an appreciation for Bach. I still can't play it properly, but the recordings are a joy to listen to. Particularly the solo violin and cello works, as someone mentioned above. Which, I believe, are pretty well all dance forms. And contrary to what someone else remarked earlier, the liner notes for the recording that I have of the violin sonatas and partitas mention that Bach was himself an accomplished violinist and in fact wrote them for his particularly talented students.
As an aside, that Bourée reworked by J Tull from a Bach lute piece would probably be pretty nice played on the fiddle, too. I have got the first bit figured out (in spite of some tricky accidentals), but the rest is beyond my capability. Perhaps one of you more advanced enthusiasts might like to put it into ABC and post it here?
There is apparantly plenty of musicological evidence, but don't ask me to quote it, of a huge influence coming from Baroque music into the fiddling traditions and tune forms of northwest Europe (Ireland/Scotland/Scandanavia in particular). Of course traditional music gave quite a bit back, as well! Trad music never existed in that romantic, splendid isolation from other influences that we tend to imagine.
From the viewpoint of melody, I know I like both these kinds of music because the melodies are both beautiful and challenging. The form is clear, somewhat repetitive, with lots of use of 2,4 and 8 bar question and answer motifs. I've never much liked music that just wanders about!
As for counterpoint, it probably shows up more in Scandanavian part playing or the Scottish tradition of figured bass style accompaniment, while it seems to me that Irish music has tended to concentrate more on melodic development.
I once heard someone say that the above mentioned traditions are like a direct continuation of the Baroque tradition, which of course went out of fashion in the courts and cathedrals and fell into complete disuse for a time in "classical" music circles.
If O'Carolan had not met Germiniani we would possibly only have a quarter of his output. Popular music of the day was always part and parcel of everyday life. When I was collecting songs I discarded all the early Music Hall, one of the most criminal things I ever did and still regret it deeply.
Trad music players who like Bach would probably also like Giuseppe Tartini, an Italian violin virtuoso and pedagogue who composed many wonderfully melodic sonatas for violin, cello, and continuo. These works are full of folk-sounding themes probably drawn from Italian dance music of the era. Andrew Manze and Elizabeth Wallfisch are two modern players who do his work justice.
I am particularly fond of Szeryng, Milstein,(the later slower version) and Grimeauex's interpretations of the Sonatas and Partitas...also very fond of Cello Suites,,
Hilary Hahn has a disc of bach that I am partial to, also
That Celtic knot elaborateness and circularity that Irish dance melodies have - Bach's music seem to have that as well, though with the extra dimension of counterpoint. Did he have some Celtic connection? Or is that reading too much into it?
He's commonly assumed to be of Teutonic stock, 'bach' being a German word for 'stream' (cognate with Northern English 'beck', of Norse origin; also cf. English place names such as Sandbach, Wisbech.).
However, as any self respecting Welshman will tell you, Johann Sebastian's name derives, in fact, from the Welsh word 'bach', meaning 'small' (cognate with Irish 'beag'), also used as a term of endearment.
LOL -- you just play it in 9/8, and it works. There's no B part, I don't think, I only heard it the once on the radio (a local public radio station) and was unable to find a copy of the recording of the thing anywhere.
I have a recording from a workshop with Chris Thile (an outstanding mandolin player) where he plays a few classical tunes, including one of Bach's solo violin partitas. The phrasing and timing in those pieces when played on mandolin is an interesting compliment to the violin versions of them. On that recording you can hear John Hartford in the background talking about how much he loves hearing those tunes played on mandolin.
The concerti, especially the DMinor for two violins... Sigh...
I think Mark (Dow) really nailed it with his comment. Certainly from my point of view, anyway!
Well, my parents are those people who know all the names of suites, symphonies etc to all the great classsics, so I've grown up with JSBach, Mozart, Beethoven etc, but I'd say my favourite is....Mozart.
It's wierd though, none of the 'big cheese' composers liked the flute...*sob sob*
Bach isn't what you think. You should never ever confuse Bach's music with classical music. You can't possibly understand Bach's works through the pretentiously romantic playing of classical musicians, just like you can't understand ITM through the playing of classical violinists.
Bach didn't composed a weird classical piece called "Jesus, Joy of Man's Desiring." The melody was originally used for his vocal work, not instrumental at all. And, as you know, Bach didn't composed a single piece for piano though it was invented before his death.
True, but aparently that was because he kept getting asked to compose something for the flute.
Although, the flute that he composed it for probably has more in common with irish flutes rather than the boehm system flutes.
Slainte: "...as you know, Bach didn't composed a single piece for piano though it was invented before his death."
Actually, my mother has an LP of 'Concerto No. 1 in D minor, for piano and orchestra', by J.S. Bach. According to the sleeve notes, he composed several concerti specifically for piano. It says that four of these were arrangements of, or use material from his earlier works; the remainder, including the one on this record, may be original. It is some years since I have listened to it, but I seem to remember that it sounds rather like harpsichord music played on a piano.
Slaine said
"Bach isn't what you think. You should never ever confuse Bach's music with classical music"
Asolutely, romantic/classical musicians make everything ooey-gooey & dripping with honey. I hate when people do that to trad music too. Boy, does that get on my tits.
I don't think J. S. Bach "invented" well-tuned claviers, he just happened to be the first person we have record of writing special collections to prove it could be done on one instrument without re-tuning.
We have no idea when the musicians stopped using mean and started changing to equal. I dread to think what it sounded like if the fiddlers and flautists continued playing in equal temperament against a mean-tuned keyboard.
It may have sounded like a session I went to this week where the fiddler had cleverly removed all F#s from his fiddle?
Talking about F# notes on fiddle etc....I think following note combinations sound sweeter to the ear when the pitch is ajusted slightly...eg fiddle, the A + F#, with the F# slightly flat, the A + F natural, the F being slightly sharp....general gist is it sounds better when the leading note is slightly sharp.
Damn easy to demonstrate on a fiddle, but tricky for me to put into words!
Hi everybody. This is my first contribution to a discussion. I hope you forgive me my not so perfect English ).
I learned to love music from Bach long before I I listened to ITM for the first time (and "fell in love" immediately!). So it is great, that so much of you love Bach too. Normally I listen to the musicians who specialize in baroque music. I used to sing in a choir and we had the luck to have some guys of Concerto Köln in our orchestra. But I would like to recommend a CD from a classical violinist I like very much. It's from a young girl from Lettland called Baiba Skride. She recorded the d minor partita and some sonatas from Bartok and Ysayes. I don't know whether it's available outside Germany, but If you get a chance, buy it. It's wonderful music!
I wish you all a hyppy new year!
Sue
Jim, what's happening with those sweeter-sounding slightly flat F#s is that they are resonating with the 4th harmonic of the D-string, which is a flat-sounding F#. Similarly with a slightly flat B picking up the 4th harmonic of the G-string. All this is a very good test of strings being dead in tune. The 4th harmonic can be found easily enough on the D-string - just touch the string lightly close to where you play F# in the 1st position (similarly with the other strings). The flat F# is way out of tune with the "F#" on the piano, but when played as part of a chord with open D and A you get a particularly resonant effect. However, as you've said, if you use that flat F# as the leading note to G then it just doesn't do the job; you feel the urge to sharpen it appreciably - sharper than the "F#" on the piano.
The B on the E string is often played as a true 5th (in the same location as the harmonic B on the E-string), but then it is a shade too sharp to match the 4th harmonic on the G string; so if it is being used for this purpose then it should be played a shade flatter.
There is a professional string quartet where the players deliberately tune the G-strings slightly sharper so that the 4th harmonic B of the G-string exactly matches the B on the E-string when played as a perfect 5th. Presumably the cello and viola also tune their C-strings slightly sharper so that the 4th harmonic matches the open E-strings of the violins. This must go some way to explaining the clear resonant tone such quartets can attain. It won't work if you've got a piano there - you've got to play to that instrument's intonation.
It's worth remembering that the early pianos (known as "forte-pianos") had a delicate tone with little bass, and the early concertos for such instruments certainly wouldn't have used large orchestras. It's a revelation to hear Mozart's piano concertos played on a forte-piano with an orchestra in the style and sound (as far as we can ascertain) of the period. The modern block-buster concert grand didn't appear until the 19th century, when it was invented to fulfill the needs of the virtuoso pianists and larger orchestras which started to be around from the time of late Beethoven onwards.
Trevor
A lot of Bach's solo music for violin and cello transfers very well indeed to the guitar, which leads some musicologists to suspect that Bach may have written some of this music for the lute, or at least had the lute very much in mind at the time of writing. The Chaconne for unaccompanied violin and the 5th cello suite in C minor (the one where the cellist is advised to tune the A-string down to G) are good examples and sound particularly impressive on the guitar.
Trevor
Welcome to The Session, Sue -- and don't worry about your written English, I think it's quite good, and certainly much better than I could ever do in German!
Thanks Zina! I think German is very hard to learn for a foreigner and even we Germans make a lot of mistakes. It must be equally hard to sing pieces from Bach with German text. I remember that we had a few difficulties, because the language is so elaborate ... and sometimes very funny.
I like the thought about Bach having celtic roots. He definitely liked good craic and was not blind to the joys of life. He had twenty children, after all )).
Herzlich Willkommen, Sue. It's funny to know, you learned fiddle from Pat O'Connor. He's staying in Japan at the moment: I played some tunes with him in a session in Tokyo just 3 days ago. Wert ist zu klein!
I love J S Bach's music for a lot of the same reasons I love ITM. The more you listen to it, the more you hear. The more you play it, the more you come to understand it. The more you understand it, the more you know there is to learn about it. Its complexity comes from its "simplicty", and no two people can play it the same way. It looks so easy on the page, but there are very few things that are harder to play well. Oh, and I, at least, could never tire of listening to either.
Dankeschön Hiroyuki! To be honest, I only had a couple of lessons with Pat and now I have to teach myself, because it's hard to find a teacher in Germany whose main influence is NOt classical music.
If you see Pat again, please give him my regards!
As to the music from Bach, I totally share your taste. Rheinhard Göbel is great. I met him once in Cologne. I also like the recordings of the Acadamey of St. Martin in the Fields.
By the way, has any of you ever tried out a Bach-Bogen?
This is interesting. I've always felt that Bach was in his own realm far above the other composers. A few years ago, I went through a long audio course on Bach. Even though much of his life is still unknown and maybe a third of his music is lost, what's left is just astounding.
Someone mentioned that he wrote for instruments that he couldn't play. Actually, one of his sons reported that the old man was competent on violin, cello and lute and had a fair singing voice. And of course he was known far and wide as a great keyboard virtuoso and imcomparable improviser.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the solo keyboard version of Jesu Joy is original Bach, not a later arrangment. Orchestral versions without the choral part are later arrangements.
One of the things that continually amazes me about Bach is that his music is so portable. You can put it in a wide variety of settings and arrangements and it still works very nicely - depending on your taste, of course. I personally do not like the big romanticized symphonic arrangements, but some do.
When I first started playing violin I wasn't really into classical music so I played a lot of fiddle music but the first real piece of classical music I played was a Vivaldi concerto...it wasn't so different from fiddling really! Lots of notes in an order that just feels natural a tune that is tuneful. Bach is the same, lots of notes with a natural feel and fantastic tunes! A lot of the music of that time was based on folk music, no tricks, just fab!
Yeah, Italians invented classical music, not Germans.
"Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" was a classical/romantic arrangement based on the Choral Chor in Cantata BWV 147, which starts with the verse "Jesus bleibet meine Freude." Bach himself never arranged it as an instrumental piece.
By golly, you are right. The famous keyboard arrangement of Jesu Joy is early twentieth century. I've sung the choral version from the cantata and I like the piano version almost as well. I don't think I would call it classical or romantic though. Sounds like a pretty straight forward transcription to me.
JS Bach & ITM players
JS Bach & ITM players
I've noticed many ITM players say they like JS Bach over the years. Maybe it's that both Bach & trad music has strings of eight notes, or the melodic nature of his music, or even the fact that his themes fit nicely onto trad instruments. Anyone else here a Bach fan? if so what are your reasons?
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by B Rad
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
I'm a huge Bach fan myself, but I'm not sure I ever thought about why I was such a fan...perhaps it was the organist at the church I grew up in who loved Bach and would often play it before services to warm up. It sure sounds nice on wooden flute, though.
Re-reading that sentence, I didn't actually grow up in the church (I am not Quasimotto despite the rumors and resemblance), but with my father a reader I spent a lot of extra time and the church in my younger years.
Eric
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Jayhawk
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Because nobody has ever been able to match Bach's counterpoint in any style of music.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
I LOVE J.S. Bach's music. Always have. I love the precision and spirit of the stuff, that so much of it seems to contradict itself. I love that it can be as emotional as Mahler, but never lose it's crystalline, mathematical qualities. The little stuff is still some of my favorite music. But how can you not connect with some of the big stuff? (The fugues, my god, the fugues!)
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Yep, Bach rules! I'm especially enamored of his solo violin and cello pieces. Amazing he could write such incredible stuff for instruments that he could not play.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by meemtp
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
I also enjoy Bach tremendously. He is the greatest composer of all time. His music perfectly balances the three parts of music--melody, harmony, and rythm. The man was a genius to put all that counterpoint in its exact place.
I have been recently relishing his four Orchestral suites....awesome! I love the "runs of eighth notes" as well as the sublime largos.
I'm not sure why especially ITM players like him; perhaps it has something to do with the dance music "flavor" of the Baroque period.
~Jonathan
As Bach would put at the end of every manuscript...
S.D.G. (Soli Deo Gloria, Glory to God alone)
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by jdave
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Dude, Bach rocks. That rhymes, and the rest of this sentence does not.
I am in LOOOOOVE with the 6 Suites for Unaccompanied Cello. BEAUTIFUL.
Air on the G String? Heart it.
Errr... I LOVE BACH!
Cheers and Lindt Chocolate,
Armand
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by armandale
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
I've been listening to Baroque music for longer than ITM. So, I'm very particular about the European music at that time. I do love Bach but hate the classical interpretations of his works. I prefer his works performed by the musicians specialised in early music, not much classical music in general, and played historically "authentic" instruments. I love the smooth and simple sounds of baroque violin or cello, viola da gamba, wooden or ivory flute, but really hate those of classical violin full of vibratos.
I think the playing styles of baroque music are very similar to those of ITM. Avoidance of overuse of vibratos, very relaxed bowing styles, ornamentation techniques, etc. And unlike the music in the later periods, baroque musicians composed loads of dance music. Most of you tend to associate Bach with religious music, but that's a great misunderstanding. He composed tons of secular pieces, derived from the dance tunes of various parts of Europe, including gigue of Ireland. French suites for harpsichord, and cello suites, are good examples.
As for the musicians, I love Kuijken brothers (on violin, viol, and flute), G. Leonhardt, Ton Koopman, Christophe Rousset (harpsichordists), Reinhard Goebel (violinist), Anner Bylsma, Hidemi Suzuki (cellists), Masahiro Arita (baroque flutist), Paolo Pandolfo (amazing viol player), etc. etc. But, Dutch recorder player Frans Brueggen is my hero. (Jack G. would know him.) His simple, passionate playing is the main source of inspiration for my whistle and flute playing.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by slainte
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Armand, Bach never composed Air on G String. That's a very classically reworked piece of the Air in his Orchestral Suite No.3.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by slainte
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
P.S. I think unlike monstrous symphony orchestras, small baroque emsembles are a bit like ITM sessions.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by slainte
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
P.S. Sorry, again. I just remember Seamus Egan once recorded Bach piece off violin partita no. 3 on his first solo album.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by slainte
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Salinte, is this true?! Then who composed it? Excuse me while I cry myself to sleep.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by armandale
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Likewise. Even though a couple of my favourite tunes ever, namely Whiter shade of pale and Jethro Tull's Bourée, are in fact "covers", I was not much of a Bach fan until my fiddle teacher obliged me to learn a Bach minuet (transposed for violin from the solo cello suites), to get me to slow down deliberately and take a more careful approach. He said that, like excellent food, which is nice to eat even when it's cold, excellent music is still excellent even when you play it slow. He is, of course, quite right and the experience kindled an appreciation for Bach. I still can't play it properly, but the recordings are a joy to listen to. Particularly the solo violin and cello works, as someone mentioned above. Which, I believe, are pretty well all dance forms. And contrary to what someone else remarked earlier, the liner notes for the recording that I have of the violin sonatas and partitas mention that Bach was himself an accomplished violinist and in fact wrote them for his particularly talented students.
As an aside, that Bourée reworked by J Tull from a Bach lute piece would probably be pretty nice played on the fiddle, too. I have got the first bit figured out (in spite of some tricky accidentals), but the rest is beyond my capability. Perhaps one of you more advanced enthusiasts might like to put it into ABC and post it here?
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by reedy grins
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
I'm partial to Chopin myself
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by sifudave54
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
There is apparantly plenty of musicological evidence, but don't ask me to quote it, of a huge influence coming from Baroque music into the fiddling traditions and tune forms of northwest Europe (Ireland/Scotland/Scandanavia in particular). Of course traditional music gave quite a bit back, as well! Trad music never existed in that romantic, splendid isolation from other influences that we tend to imagine.
From the viewpoint of melody, I know I like both these kinds of music because the melodies are both beautiful and challenging. The form is clear, somewhat repetitive, with lots of use of 2,4 and 8 bar question and answer motifs. I've never much liked music that just wanders about!
As for counterpoint, it probably shows up more in Scandanavian part playing or the Scottish tradition of figured bass style accompaniment, while it seems to me that Irish music has tended to concentrate more on melodic development.
I once heard someone say that the above mentioned traditions are like a direct continuation of the Baroque tradition, which of course went out of fashion in the courts and cathedrals and fell into complete disuse for a time in "classical" music circles.
No wonder we like Bach.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by kris
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
If O'Carolan had not met Germiniani we would possibly only have a quarter of his output. Popular music of the day was always part and parcel of everyday life. When I was collecting songs I discarded all the early Music Hall, one of the most criminal things I ever did and still regret it deeply.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Ian Stevenson
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Especially love the 6 sonatas for solo violin. Melodic genius, *and* easy to listen to, if a little more difficult to play..........
Jim
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Trad music players who like Bach would probably also like Giuseppe Tartini, an Italian violin virtuoso and pedagogue who composed many wonderfully melodic sonatas for violin, cello, and continuo. These works are full of folk-sounding themes probably drawn from Italian dance music of the era. Andrew Manze and Elizabeth Wallfisch are two modern players who do his work justice.
Larry
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Layers
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
I am particularly fond of Szeryng, Milstein,(the later slower version) and Grimeauex's interpretations of the Sonatas and Partitas...also very fond of Cello Suites,,
Hilary Hahn has a disc of bach that I am partial to, also
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
That Celtic knot elaborateness and circularity that Irish dance melodies have - Bach's music seem to have that as well, though with the extra dimension of counterpoint. Did he have some Celtic connection? Or is that reading too much into it?
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Bach fugue,
satisfying counter to modern melody
and the beat
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by bigfish
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Count me in.
"Did he have some Celtic connection?"
He's commonly assumed to be of Teutonic stock, 'bach' being a German word for 'stream' (cognate with Northern English 'beck', of Norse origin; also cf. English place names such as Sandbach, Wisbech.).
However, as any self respecting Welshman will tell you, Johann Sebastian's name derives, in fact, from the Welsh word 'bach', meaning 'small' (cognate with Irish 'beag'), also used as a term of endearment.
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Doesn't 'Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring' make a great slip jig?
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Well spotted, MG!
Jim
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Jim t, you're bach. I was a bit worried that some of my fulminations and pulpitations had kept you away.
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Somebody recorded that already on a Christmas album -- was it Seamus Connolly?
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Squeee!!
Post it, post it!!!
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by armandale
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
LOL -- you just play it in 9/8, and it works. There's no B part, I don't think, I only heard it the once on the radio (a local public radio station) and was unable to find a copy of the recording of the thing anywhere.
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
I have a recording from a workshop with Chris Thile (an outstanding mandolin player) where he plays a few classical tunes, including one of Bach's solo violin partitas. The phrasing and timing in those pieces when played on mandolin is an interesting compliment to the violin versions of them. On that recording you can hear John Hartford in the background talking about how much he loves hearing those tunes played on mandolin.
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by withak
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
The concerti, especially the DMinor for two violins... Sigh...
I think Mark (Dow) really nailed it with his comment. Certainly from my point of view, anyway!
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by sara g
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Well, my parents are those people who know all the names of suites, symphonies etc to all the great classsics, so I've grown up with JSBach, Mozart, Beethoven etc, but I'd say my favourite is....Mozart.
It's wierd though, none of the 'big cheese' composers liked the flute...*sob sob*
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by Folkie Junkie
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Bach isn't what you think. You should never ever confuse Bach's music with classical music. You can't possibly understand Bach's works through the pretentiously romantic playing of classical musicians, just like you can't understand ITM through the playing of classical violinists.
Bach didn't composed a weird classical piece called "Jesus, Joy of Man's Desiring." The melody was originally used for his vocal work, not instrumental at all. And, as you know, Bach didn't composed a single piece for piano though it was invented before his death.
I've been looking for sample clips of the proper performances of Bach's works. Here is the best one I could find: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00030FJ30/104-6068063-6909511?v=glance&s=classical&vi=samples#disc_1 It's a very danseable intrepretation of Bach's harpsichord works. What do you think?
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by slainte
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Can't think of a more hair-raising musical experience than certain moments of the St John's Passion. Let's not forget the cantatas!
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by Nell
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Mozart was quite intrigued by "The Magic Flute"
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
True, but aparently that was because he kept getting asked to compose something for the flute.
Although, the flute that he composed it for probably has more in common with irish flutes rather than the boehm system flutes.
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by Folkie Junkie
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
A photo of a baroque flute: http://www.berneyflutes.com/baroque/lot.html (not the original though)
For the sound of it, go to the page: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000057FC/qid=1104339841/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-6068063-6909511?v=glance&s=classical Click any of tracks 8-14.
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by slainte
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Jim - I think it was De Dannan who did Arrival of the Queen of Sheba, not Four Dogs and a Man.
Jim
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Slainte: "...as you know, Bach didn't composed a single piece for piano though it was invented before his death."
Actually, my mother has an LP of 'Concerto No. 1 in D minor, for piano and orchestra', by J.S. Bach. According to the sleeve notes, he composed several concerti specifically for piano. It says that four of these were arrangements of, or use material from his earlier works; the remainder, including the one on this record, may be original. It is some years since I have listened to it, but I seem to remember that it sounds rather like harpsichord music played on a piano.
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Slaine said
"Bach isn't what you think. You should never ever confuse Bach's music with classical music"
Asolutely, romantic/classical musicians make everything ooey-gooey & dripping with honey. I hate when people do that to trad music too. Boy, does that get on my tits.
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by B Rad
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
...and all that highly technical skill wasted!!!
Jim
# Posted on December 30th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Comparison
A proper interpretation of Bach's Violin Sonatas and Partitas: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000001TWH/104-6068063-6909511?v=glance&s=classical&vi=samples#disc_1
A typical classical/romantic interpretation: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000001GXY/104-6068063-6909511?v=glance&s=classical&vi=samples#disc_1
Now you see how classical violinists distort Bach's music. Obviously, baroque violinists play in more relaxed ways.
# Posted on December 30th 2004 by slainte
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
I don't think J. S. Bach "invented" well-tuned claviers, he just happened to be the first person we have record of writing special collections to prove it could be done on one instrument without re-tuning.
We have no idea when the musicians stopped using mean and started changing to equal. I dread to think what it sounded like if the fiddlers and flautists continued playing in equal temperament against a mean-tuned keyboard.
It may have sounded like a session I went to this week where the fiddler had cleverly removed all F#s from his fiddle?
# Posted on December 30th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Talking about F# notes on fiddle etc....I think following note combinations sound sweeter to the ear when the pitch is ajusted slightly...eg fiddle, the A + F#, with the F# slightly flat, the A + F natural, the F being slightly sharp....general gist is it sounds better when the leading note is slightly sharp.
Damn easy to demonstrate on a fiddle, but tricky for me to put into words!
Jim
# Posted on December 30th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Hi everybody. This is my first contribution to a discussion. I hope you forgive me my not so perfect English
).
I learned to love music from Bach long before I I listened to ITM for the first time (and "fell in love" immediately!). So it is great, that so much of you love Bach too. Normally I listen to the musicians who specialize in baroque music. I used to sing in a choir and we had the luck to have some guys of Concerto Köln in our orchestra. But I would like to recommend a CD from a classical violinist I like very much. It's from a young girl from Lettland called Baiba Skride. She recorded the d minor partita and some sonatas from Bartok and Ysayes. I don't know whether it's available outside Germany, but If you get a chance, buy it. It's wonderful music!
I wish you all a hyppy new year!
Sue
# Posted on December 31st 2004 by fiddlinsue
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Jim, what's happening with those sweeter-sounding slightly flat F#s is that they are resonating with the 4th harmonic of the D-string, which is a flat-sounding F#. Similarly with a slightly flat B picking up the 4th harmonic of the G-string. All this is a very good test of strings being dead in tune. The 4th harmonic can be found easily enough on the D-string - just touch the string lightly close to where you play F# in the 1st position (similarly with the other strings). The flat F# is way out of tune with the "F#" on the piano, but when played as part of a chord with open D and A you get a particularly resonant effect. However, as you've said, if you use that flat F# as the leading note to G then it just doesn't do the job; you feel the urge to sharpen it appreciably - sharper than the "F#" on the piano.
The B on the E string is often played as a true 5th (in the same location as the harmonic B on the E-string), but then it is a shade too sharp to match the 4th harmonic on the G string; so if it is being used for this purpose then it should be played a shade flatter.
There is a professional string quartet where the players deliberately tune the G-strings slightly sharper so that the 4th harmonic B of the G-string exactly matches the B on the E-string when played as a perfect 5th. Presumably the cello and viola also tune their C-strings slightly sharper so that the 4th harmonic matches the open E-strings of the violins. This must go some way to explaining the clear resonant tone such quartets can attain. It won't work if you've got a piano there - you've got to play to that instrument's intonation.
Trevor
# Posted on December 31st 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
It's worth remembering that the early pianos (known as "forte-pianos") had a delicate tone with little bass, and the early concertos for such instruments certainly wouldn't have used large orchestras. It's a revelation to hear Mozart's piano concertos played on a forte-piano with an orchestra in the style and sound (as far as we can ascertain) of the period. The modern block-buster concert grand didn't appear until the 19th century, when it was invented to fulfill the needs of the virtuoso pianists and larger orchestras which started to be around from the time of late Beethoven onwards.
Trevor
# Posted on December 31st 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
A lot of Bach's solo music for violin and cello transfers very well indeed to the guitar, which leads some musicologists to suspect that Bach may have written some of this music for the lute, or at least had the lute very much in mind at the time of writing. The Chaconne for unaccompanied violin and the 5th cello suite in C minor (the one where the cellist is advised to tune the A-string down to G) are good examples and sound particularly impressive on the guitar.
Trevor
# Posted on December 31st 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Welcome to The Session, Sue -- and don't worry about your written English, I think it's quite good, and certainly much better than I could ever do in German!
# Posted on December 31st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Thanks Zina! I think German is very hard to learn for a foreigner and even we Germans make a lot of mistakes. It must be equally hard to sing pieces from Bach with German text. I remember that we had a few difficulties, because the language is so elaborate ... and sometimes very funny.
)).
I like the thought about Bach having celtic roots. He definitely liked good craic and was not blind to the joys of life. He had twenty children, after all
# Posted on December 31st 2004 by fiddlinsue
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Herzlich Willkommen, Sue. It's funny to know, you learned fiddle from Pat O'Connor. He's staying in Japan at the moment: I played some tunes with him in a session in Tokyo just 3 days ago. Wert ist zu klein!
# Posted on December 31st 2004 by slainte
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
I love J S Bach's music for a lot of the same reasons I love ITM. The more you listen to it, the more you hear. The more you play it, the more you come to understand it. The more you understand it, the more you know there is to learn about it. Its complexity comes from its "simplicty", and no two people can play it the same way. It looks so easy on the page, but there are very few things that are harder to play well. Oh, and I, at least, could never tire of listening to either.
Yeah, I'm a huge Bach fan.
# Posted on December 31st 2004 by fiddleK
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Dankeschön Hiroyuki! To be honest, I only had a couple of lessons with Pat and now I have to teach myself, because it's hard to find a teacher in Germany whose main influence is NOt classical music.
If you see Pat again, please give him my regards!
As to the music from Bach, I totally share your taste. Rheinhard Göbel is great. I met him once in Cologne. I also like the recordings of the Acadamey of St. Martin in the Fields.
By the way, has any of you ever tried out a Bach-Bogen?
# Posted on January 1st 2005 by fiddlinsue
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
This is interesting. I've always felt that Bach was in his own realm far above the other composers. A few years ago, I went through a long audio course on Bach. Even though much of his life is still unknown and maybe a third of his music is lost, what's left is just astounding.
Someone mentioned that he wrote for instruments that he couldn't play. Actually, one of his sons reported that the old man was competent on violin, cello and lute and had a fair singing voice. And of course he was known far and wide as a great keyboard virtuoso and imcomparable improviser.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the solo keyboard version of Jesu Joy is original Bach, not a later arrangment. Orchestral versions without the choral part are later arrangements.
One of the things that continually amazes me about Bach is that his music is so portable. You can put it in a wide variety of settings and arrangements and it still works very nicely - depending on your taste, of course. I personally do not like the big romanticized symphonic arrangements, but some do.
Bob
# Posted on January 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
When I first started playing violin I wasn't really into classical music so I played a lot of fiddle music but the first real piece of classical music I played was a Vivaldi concerto...it wasn't so different from fiddling really! Lots of notes in an order that just feels natural a tune that is tuneful. Bach is the same, lots of notes with a natural feel and fantastic tunes! A lot of the music of that time was based on folk music, no tricks, just fab!
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by Claremac
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
Yeah, Italians invented classical music, not Germans.
"Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" was a classical/romantic arrangement based on the Choral Chor in Cantata BWV 147, which starts with the verse "Jesus bleibet meine Freude." Bach himself never arranged it as an instrumental piece.
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by slainte
Re: JS Bach & ITM players
By golly, you are right. The famous keyboard arrangement of Jesu Joy is early twentieth century. I've sung the choral version from the cantata and I like the piano version almost as well. I don't think I would call it classical or romantic though. Sounds like a pretty straight forward transcription to me.
Bob
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by Bob himself