Has anyone had strange things happening to them at Fleadhs? It is a long time since my experiences but I remember in the 70's a piano player adjudicating an 'Irish Songs in English' competition and faulting me for using pregnant pauses or a Dublin man telling Mairead (Altan) to go back to school and relearn her Irish as it was interfering with her singing.
LOL -- I've never competed at the fleadhs, the nearest I can think of in my experience is shows and church music. One of my favorites was the family insisting that a good friend should be accompanied singing "Happy Trails to You" at a funeral. He couldn't count.
I know I keep harping on and on and on about this - but in the light of all the blisteringly great talent in Irish music (young, old and all ages in between) - what the hell are the judges' credentials? Are they up-to-date with the best of Irish music as it is now (as opposed just to the way they think it should be)? Don't you think questions like "Who are Flook?" shows just a little bit of being out of touch, and possibly unsure of the boundaries of judgement? I despair.
I wouldn't like to be asked who are Flook either as I wouldn't have any idea. However, I didn't think adjudicators questioned competitors as I thought the competition related purely to performance only.
I asked the "Flook" question myself a few weeks back on the site and I still have no idea of who or what they are. I would have tought that I was fairly up to date with the scene. Well there you go!
I've felt for a long time now, after attending countless fleadh competitions at every level from county through provincial, and on to All Ireland, that it is rarely the "best" person who wins. IMHO its the person who best complies with the particular judge's concept of the competitor who best fits the mould. In other words if a competitor wins four in a row, and enters on a fifth year, the winner will be either the same person again, or someone who can outdo him/her at their own style of playing.
It seems to be more important to maintain the status quo than to judge a particular competition on its own entrants' merits. Therefore if you want to win, you must play the "Fleadh style".
Jim,
I presume you are talking about recent goings-on, in which case nothing has changed during the last 30 or 40 years.I find that incredible to believe. Who decides which judges should adjudicate what, or is it just a case of personel available?
I recall my first folk festival which was Newcastleton in Roxburghshire, 1980 I think it was. During the fiddle competitions a local fiddler called Albie Tedham was playing his selection of tunes, he was being accompanied on piano(all the fiddle competitors were). When he had finished he walked over to the piano laid his fiddle upon it and then proceeded to accompany the next competitor on the piano. It struck me at the time as being an extremely decent thing to do, a real sporting gesture. He is alas no longer with us, gone but not forgotten. (I don't recall who won the open fiddle that year).
Maybe I can shed some light on some of the logistical questions that have been asked:
As far as "what the hell are the judges' credentials," there are actually no specific standards that one must meet for judging regional fleadhanna in the US. Because this is all regulated by one entity, Comhaltas, I would presume that this is also true at least on the county and provincial level in Ireland and elsewhere. It is nothing like the world of Irish dance where one must complete a specific and rigorous program of study and pass an exam first to be a qualified teacher, and then to qualify as an adjudicator. There now exist courses and exams that one can take to become a "certified" teacher of traditional music, but these are not widely offered in the US, if at all. There is also an adjudication seminar that is offered once a year or so. It lasts for a weekend and aims to train fleadh adjudicators, and from what I have heard culminates in an exam where participants watch videos of commpetitors from past All-Ireland fleadhanna and must correctly pick the actual first, second, and third place winners in order to receive the available certification. The seminar is open to anyone interested as far as I can tell.
Participation in this seminar is not required to adjudicate, and few adjudicators, at least in the US, seem to have taken it. There is a handbook for adjudicators published by Comhaltas; it is an interesting document and has some helpful information for the prospective adjudicator, but the most recent edition seems to be 1986. it is obsolete in some respects and is not quite comprehensive.
As far as how who decides who the adjudicators are and what they should adjudicate, at the regional level, the chairperson of the local fleadh committee appoints one or two people from the host branch to choose and coordinate the judges. These are generally respected local musicians. They choose whomever they feel would do a good job and is available and willing to work what amounts usually to a 12-hour day for around $200 plus expenses.There is an idea--I don't know if it is actually a rule, but if so it is flexible in practice--that as much as possible judges should be hired from outside the region to minimize conflicts of interest and general awkwardness, but in practice this is often difficult or impossible, and is dependent on the host branch's budget, since it is expensive to transport adjudicators from outside the region (in the US this amounts to flying people from the East Coast to the Midwest and vice versa.) Generally nine judges are hired and among them handle all the competitions. This can and does lead to people judging instruments that they don't play, or specialized competitions such as ceili band or groupai cheoil that they may not have any particular expertise in.
Because none of this is standardized, fleadh results actually should and often do reflect a greater degree of subjectivity rather than other artistic competitions; in other words, it matters a lot who the judge is, what their background is, what their training is, their personal beliefs, philosophies, and experience or lack thereof, etc, because that is all that they have to go on when they sit down behind that table. Because usually the judge changes every year, we should expect the style that they are looking for to change, and it often does. I think it is not usually an issue of "the judge is always looking for the same things," because usually there are many different judges with very different approaches: the other common complaint is, "How do I know what the judge wants when they all want different things?" Indeed, there are a lot of strong feelings out there about how the music should be played, and to its credit one thing that the Comhaltas handbook encourages is for adjudicators to be open-minded, not to reject competitors based on different legitimate approaches or regional styles, and to reward individuality and unique personal musical expression within a style over derivative playing or outright copying. Of course, adjudicators must have familiarity with different regional styles to be able to do this, and enough familiarity with current recording catalogues to be able to recognize when someone is reproducing a famous rendition note for note!
Anyway, I think the common occurrence of the same person winning for multiple years in a row is a separate issue and can come down to a couple of factors:
1. The competitor really is superior for their age. Especially in the younger categories, it's not uncommon to see kids with solid technical ability who started younger than their peers excelling repeatedly, until they are teenagers, when others may start catching up.
2. The competitor created a big impression one time and now everyone knows who they are. There is now an expectation that they will be an impressive contender. As a judge, particularly an inexperienced judge, or in a close competition, just having it in your mind that so-and-so is really good because they won last year, or twice in a row, can consciously or unconsciously sway your decision. Judges are only human, and when it doubt, it always feels better to go with the tried and true.
3. There is actual or perceived pressure from competition officials, other judges, or other persons with actual or perceived influence to choose a certain competitor. Although it is probably not popular to say, these things can and do happen.
The reality of the situation is that if an adjudicator has an axe to grind, a person they want to win, a person they emphatically do not want to see win, or any kind of a statement they want to make, they have the power to do so, at least for that one fleadh. Their decisions may affect whether or not they are asked to judge again, but that is all. I would love to see some reforms in how the competitions are conducted, to make them more relevant and worthy of serious respect from the musical community. There will always be complaints about adjudication, conspiracy theories, and problems of various kinds, but they can be minimized.
Irish music is a very small world, and it is next to impossible to find judges, particularly at the All-Ireland level, who do not have some kind of relationship to or preconceived idea about one or more competitors that they have to judge. For example: a competitor is or was their student (this is not expressly prohibited, though it is frowned on); a competitor is a student of the adjudicator's colleague or family member; a competitor is a student of the adjudicator's rival; a competitor has a high degree of name recognition due to past success, or a family that is well-known or powerful in Comhaltas or the Irish music world; a competitor is an American, or of non-Irish or non-European ancestry, and the adjudicator has a conscious or unconscious desire not to see such a person win; and on and on. Again, judges are only human, and it is hard to separate external factors or associations from a competitor's performance on a particular day. Individual judges will handle different circumstances in different ways, but having the burden of certain expectations, even unconsciously, makes the job much harder and less fair to the competitors in addition to opening the judges up to criticism, even when they have made the best, most unbiased decision that they could under the circumstances.
With this reality, the only way to protect both the competitors AND the adjudicators from any bias, allegations of impropriety, or clouds over a competitor's success is to institute complete anonymity by placing the adjudicator behind a screen and identifying the competitors only by number. This is how orchestra auditions and many competitions in the classical music world operate; and while this may not be perfect, it would get rid of a lot of the problems that people complain about. Adjudicators have a hard job and sometimes a painful one. It helps them to do it to the best of their ability if they can eliminate as many potential sources of bias as possible. It also protects them from allegations of bias and impropriety.
Whenever I mention this solution, it is usually rejected on the grounds that it would make the fleadh "too serious," "take the fun out of it," or simply be too "radical" of a change. The way it is usually done places the adjudicator's table behind the screen on one side of the competitor, with the audience on the other side, so that the audience can still see the competitor. The logistics of making sure that a judge does not see any competitors from a competition that has not yet taken place would have to be dealt with, but should not be difficult.
My response to the argument that this makes it "too serious" is that the All-Ireland, at least, is already taken pretty seriously by the competitors, and if you have spent your time and money to get there, not to mention the work on your music, and particularly if you are paying to fly over from the US, you already take it seriously and would be well-served to know that there is no way you are being judged by anything other than how you play on that day.
Considering this plan for regional fleadhanna in the US brings up further concerns, specifically, whether the American fleadhanna are "friendly competition" or "serious," or even whether or not these two concepts are mutually exclusive. I would incidentally love to see judging behind screens here as well, for the same reasons, but until other issues are resolved, I doubt that it is likely to happen. From what I understand no one in US Comhaltas has the authority to institute such a change independently anyway. But the first problem is that the US fleadhanna seem to be struggling a bit with their identity, trying to be several things and fulfill different needs at once. Ostensibly, according to the syllabus, they are meant to cater to "those willing to travel to compete in the All-Ireland," and going by this, the winners should be held to the standard required to compete in the All-Ireland, by adjudicators capable of deciding which competitors are at that standard. This may mean exercising their right, as stated in the syllabus, not to award certain prizes and not to qualify competitors who are not prepared. This is one view of the US fleadhanna. Whether the adjudicators living in America are actually able to know what is being looked for in Ireland at a given time is a whole other issue.
The other school of thought, which is a rather common one among families and individuals new to the scene, is that it is simply a children's music competition. They may not even be aware that it is a preliminary round for a world-class competition, that there is a possibilty that a prize may not be awarded, and that the adjudicator may not be comparing the competitors simply to each other, but to a world-class standard. This is not helped by the fact that adjudicators themselves differ in their approach. Consider, for example, a child who competes in both flute and fiddle. The fiddle judge may follow the view that this is a competition that qualifies musicians for the All-Ireland and judges accordingly against a standard, while the flute judge assumes that they will give out every medal and ranks the competitors only against each other, even if only one of them is at the level to qualify for the All-Ireland. The competitions themselves cannot control how individual judges choose to handle it, apart from a simple reminder that "qualifying musicians for the All-Ireland is a responsibility not to be taken lightly," or some such variation.
I think that the American fleadhanna need to decide what their goal is, be consistent about it, and make it clear to the judges. The obvious solution is for the fleadhanna to start following and enforcing their own written syllabi, and giving judges the training to do so. There are other competitions for those who want something with less pressure or a lower standard, such as the numerous feiseanna, some of which have quite good music competitions. I don't see how it serves a competitor to qualify them for the All-Ireland if they are not ready. Why encourage someone, particularly a young musician who has years ahead of them to learn and improve, to go to the expense of a trip to the All-Ireland at a young age, only to find out that they are not at the level of the other competitors, which can be an even more embarassing and painful, and expensive experience than not winning at the regional level? Of course, if they don't intend to actually go to the All-Ireland, the point becomes moot, and there are people who compete for whom going to Ireland is the furthest thing from their mind. However, the purpose of the competition as stated is to qualify competitors for the All-Ireland. Why not actually run the competitions as if that is the intent, and be very clear to the competitors about what to expect? Furthermore, if there is a large enough market for it, I expect someone will rise to the occasion and organize a competition of sorts geared to the own needs of "friendly, less serious" competition. Once the basic identity and purpose of the American competitions are sorted out, then other innovations can be discussed.
I think that competition can be a great motivator and goal-setting experience for some people, and can drive them to progress, provided it is approached with the right mindset. It can also be a great way to meet other musicians, and winning can open up some nice opportunities, although winning even the all-Ireland is by no means a ticket to fame and fortune. But to make competing the best possible experience, it must be as fair as possible, with the rules and expectations clearly stated. This is the responsibility of the governing bodies that organize the competitions, and participants in the competitions have a right to expect impartiality in judging and clarity of rules and to demand that changes be instituted to achieve this if necessary. It only hurts the prestige and relevance of the competitions and their winners if everything possible is not done to insure impartial, educated adjudication with consistently high standards and an accepted common goal.
A most informative, enlightening post, ostricheathers. There is a general perception that competitions are judged unfairly, and that perception is justified so long as the meaures you suggest to ensure impartiality are not put in place. The question arises why they are not put in place, and that is a question that should perhaps be put not to Comhaltas, but to publicly funded bodies that grant-aid Comhaltas.
I certainly didn't expect a thesis on the subject but it makes very interesting reading and the idea of 'blind' competitions makes a lot of sense on the music side. It is not too obvious these days to differentiate between fiddlers who have a modern style, but there would need to be something more on the song side, voices are easily recognised.
On the positive side, I remember an All Ireland senior fiddle competition, which lives in my brain still, between Tommy Peoples, Mairtin Byrnes and Dennis Ryan. The medals were given as follows:- 1st Mairtin, 2nd Dennis, 3rd Tommy who promptly threw his medal on the table and stormed out. He was wrong because everyone there that day agreed with the decision. So the Arbiters are not always wrong.
Thanks very much for the screed Ostrichfeathers
I agree with some of Ostrichfeathers comments but not all. Maybe it refers more to the state's that Ireland. I have lost more all-Irelands in different categories and to be honest I don't think I was robbed at any time. I felt on many occassions I was by far the better player, but not on that particular day. When you loose it is to easy to find fault with the systems in place and some people carry this with them for ever.
One must remember that it is not just how you play your particular choosen instrument, it is also how you interppute the music. It is very hard for a judge not to be biased when they are judging something they are passionate about. I would say that over all at the end of the day they do get it right more of the time. I do accept that at times it may not seem right at all. But this is common to alot of judged sports as well, like gymnastics, figure skating, boxing and all the rest.
I'm glad people found my post of some use...sorry it got so long! I did want to make it clear that I was not trying to say that biased judging is rampant, or that the majority are incompetent. I do think, though, that the system has its problems, and that they are probably more severe in the US than in Ireland. Compaqjohn, you have a good point that it's hard not to be "biased" about something that one is passionate about. I submit that being subjective is different from being biased. Judging music is always personal and subjective, but it should not be biased towards or against external, non-musical factors, such as past success, success of family members, who your teacher is, or any such thing. An adjudicator can't totally subvert an aesthetic preference for a particular style, which is a form of musical bias, but as the adjudication manual suggests, they can (and often do) try to be open-minded when weighing the different factors, which is all you can ask of anyone. It only adds to the difficulty of their task when they must also try to forget about irrelvant external details.
I think that the vast majority of judges strive to consider only the playing on a particular day, and any measures that can be put in place to help them in this and to protect them from unreasonable accusations should be welcomed. This would also help put some of the the wild theories to rest and help competitors (and parents) accept the decisions. Of the people who lose and blame the judge, some may never accept that they lost fairly no matter what, but I would think that most are reasonable and would be able to accept their loss and be able to move on and progress as a musician if there was a greater attempt at ensuring anonymity.
By the way, you'd be surprised at how hard it can be to recognize even someone whose playing you think you know well behind a screen. Even when you think that you recognize someone, you keep second-guessing yourself, and you simply don't have time to concentrate on figuring out who it might be while you are trying to judge the competition. Strange, but true. Voice might indeed present more of a problem, but I was thinking more of the instrumental competitions anyway.
I know of several recent instances where people have had to judge competitors that they have had some form of relationship with, in both the US and Ireland...but I want to see if anyone else mentions them first! But seriously, if people think my blind competition idea is worthy of consideration, which some of you do, any ideas on how I might go about getting it out there? The line people love to give me is "We have no authority on that, it's up to Comhaltas in Ireland." I'm sure it's true, but in that case, what to do?
An Idea that I have toyed with for some time is opening it up to the audience in the centre, hall on the day. Give them all a vote. I know this to can be messed with as well. Ireland has only one true national television channel and I feel that for the contestants that actually make it to the final that it should be televised and the country should pick the winnners by way of phone voting in much the same way as we do with the Eurovision rep. This will have problems too as a Cork contestant will receive all the vote from Cork , and kerry people will vote for anybody so long as their not from Cork and so on but it would give a better indication of the winner. It would cut out this family rubbish.
Juries & Fleadhs.
Juries & Fleadhs.
Has anyone had strange things happening to them at Fleadhs? It is a long time since my experiences but I remember in the 70's a piano player adjudicating an 'Irish Songs in English' competition and faulting me for using pregnant pauses or a Dublin man telling Mairead (Altan) to go back to school and relearn her Irish as it was interfering with her singing.
# Posted on December 26th 2004 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
LOL -- I've never competed at the fleadhs, the nearest I can think of in my experience is shows and church music. One of my favorites was the family insisting that a good friend should be accompanied singing "Happy Trails to You" at a funeral. He couldn't count.
# Posted on December 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
I know I keep harping on and on and on about this - but in the light of all the blisteringly great talent in Irish music (young, old and all ages in between) - what the hell are the judges' credentials? Are they up-to-date with the best of Irish music as it is now (as opposed just to the way they think it should be)? Don't you think questions like "Who are Flook?" shows just a little bit of being out of touch, and possibly unsure of the boundaries of judgement? I despair.
Jim
# Posted on December 26th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
who are flook?ı
# Posted on December 27th 2004 by ...
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
Or "Whither fluke?"
Kind of like asking "What are Brahms?"
# Posted on December 27th 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
I wouldn't like to be asked who are Flook either as I wouldn't have any idea. However, I didn't think adjudicators questioned competitors as I thought the competition related purely to performance only.
# Posted on December 27th 2004 by Bannerman
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
I asked the "Flook" question myself a few weeks back on the site and I still have no idea of who or what they are. I would have tought that I was fairly up to date with the scene. Well there you go!
# Posted on December 27th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
I've felt for a long time now, after attending countless fleadh competitions at every level from county through provincial, and on to All Ireland, that it is rarely the "best" person who wins. IMHO its the person who best complies with the particular judge's concept of the competitor who best fits the mould. In other words if a competitor wins four in a row, and enters on a fifth year, the winner will be either the same person again, or someone who can outdo him/her at their own style of playing.
It seems to be more important to maintain the status quo than to judge a particular competition on its own entrants' merits. Therefore if you want to win, you must play the "Fleadh style".
# Posted on December 27th 2004 by Backer
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
Jim,
I presume you are talking about recent goings-on, in which case nothing has changed during the last 30 or 40 years.I find that incredible to believe. Who decides which judges should adjudicate what, or is it just a case of personel available?
# Posted on December 27th 2004 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
http://www.google.com/search?q=flook
# Posted on December 27th 2004 by Just a person
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
I recall my first folk festival which was Newcastleton in Roxburghshire, 1980 I think it was. During the fiddle competitions a local fiddler called Albie Tedham was playing his selection of tunes, he was being accompanied on piano(all the fiddle competitors were). When he had finished he walked over to the piano laid his fiddle upon it and then proceeded to accompany the next competitor on the piano. It struck me at the time as being an extremely decent thing to do, a real sporting gesture. He is alas no longer with us, gone but not forgotten. (I don't recall who won the open fiddle that year).
# Posted on December 27th 2004 by curlew
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
Do they still have the Miscellaneous category? I'd love to become the All Ireland Miscellaneous champion... ;)
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Juries & Fleadhs...long!
Maybe I can shed some light on some of the logistical questions that have been asked:
As far as "what the hell are the judges' credentials," there are actually no specific standards that one must meet for judging regional fleadhanna in the US. Because this is all regulated by one entity, Comhaltas, I would presume that this is also true at least on the county and provincial level in Ireland and elsewhere. It is nothing like the world of Irish dance where one must complete a specific and rigorous program of study and pass an exam first to be a qualified teacher, and then to qualify as an adjudicator. There now exist courses and exams that one can take to become a "certified" teacher of traditional music, but these are not widely offered in the US, if at all. There is also an adjudication seminar that is offered once a year or so. It lasts for a weekend and aims to train fleadh adjudicators, and from what I have heard culminates in an exam where participants watch videos of commpetitors from past All-Ireland fleadhanna and must correctly pick the actual first, second, and third place winners in order to receive the available certification. The seminar is open to anyone interested as far as I can tell.
Participation in this seminar is not required to adjudicate, and few adjudicators, at least in the US, seem to have taken it. There is a handbook for adjudicators published by Comhaltas; it is an interesting document and has some helpful information for the prospective adjudicator, but the most recent edition seems to be 1986. it is obsolete in some respects and is not quite comprehensive.
As far as how who decides who the adjudicators are and what they should adjudicate, at the regional level, the chairperson of the local fleadh committee appoints one or two people from the host branch to choose and coordinate the judges. These are generally respected local musicians. They choose whomever they feel would do a good job and is available and willing to work what amounts usually to a 12-hour day for around $200 plus expenses.There is an idea--I don't know if it is actually a rule, but if so it is flexible in practice--that as much as possible judges should be hired from outside the region to minimize conflicts of interest and general awkwardness, but in practice this is often difficult or impossible, and is dependent on the host branch's budget, since it is expensive to transport adjudicators from outside the region (in the US this amounts to flying people from the East Coast to the Midwest and vice versa.) Generally nine judges are hired and among them handle all the competitions. This can and does lead to people judging instruments that they don't play, or specialized competitions such as ceili band or groupai cheoil that they may not have any particular expertise in.
Because none of this is standardized, fleadh results actually should and often do reflect a greater degree of subjectivity rather than other artistic competitions; in other words, it matters a lot who the judge is, what their background is, what their training is, their personal beliefs, philosophies, and experience or lack thereof, etc, because that is all that they have to go on when they sit down behind that table. Because usually the judge changes every year, we should expect the style that they are looking for to change, and it often does. I think it is not usually an issue of "the judge is always looking for the same things," because usually there are many different judges with very different approaches: the other common complaint is, "How do I know what the judge wants when they all want different things?" Indeed, there are a lot of strong feelings out there about how the music should be played, and to its credit one thing that the Comhaltas handbook encourages is for adjudicators to be open-minded, not to reject competitors based on different legitimate approaches or regional styles, and to reward individuality and unique personal musical expression within a style over derivative playing or outright copying. Of course, adjudicators must have familiarity with different regional styles to be able to do this, and enough familiarity with current recording catalogues to be able to recognize when someone is reproducing a famous rendition note for note!
Anyway, I think the common occurrence of the same person winning for multiple years in a row is a separate issue and can come down to a couple of factors:
1. The competitor really is superior for their age. Especially in the younger categories, it's not uncommon to see kids with solid technical ability who started younger than their peers excelling repeatedly, until they are teenagers, when others may start catching up.
2. The competitor created a big impression one time and now everyone knows who they are. There is now an expectation that they will be an impressive contender. As a judge, particularly an inexperienced judge, or in a close competition, just having it in your mind that so-and-so is really good because they won last year, or twice in a row, can consciously or unconsciously sway your decision. Judges are only human, and when it doubt, it always feels better to go with the tried and true.
3. There is actual or perceived pressure from competition officials, other judges, or other persons with actual or perceived influence to choose a certain competitor. Although it is probably not popular to say, these things can and do happen.
The reality of the situation is that if an adjudicator has an axe to grind, a person they want to win, a person they emphatically do not want to see win, or any kind of a statement they want to make, they have the power to do so, at least for that one fleadh. Their decisions may affect whether or not they are asked to judge again, but that is all. I would love to see some reforms in how the competitions are conducted, to make them more relevant and worthy of serious respect from the musical community. There will always be complaints about adjudication, conspiracy theories, and problems of various kinds, but they can be minimized.
Irish music is a very small world, and it is next to impossible to find judges, particularly at the All-Ireland level, who do not have some kind of relationship to or preconceived idea about one or more competitors that they have to judge. For example: a competitor is or was their student (this is not expressly prohibited, though it is frowned on); a competitor is a student of the adjudicator's colleague or family member; a competitor is a student of the adjudicator's rival; a competitor has a high degree of name recognition due to past success, or a family that is well-known or powerful in Comhaltas or the Irish music world; a competitor is an American, or of non-Irish or non-European ancestry, and the adjudicator has a conscious or unconscious desire not to see such a person win; and on and on. Again, judges are only human, and it is hard to separate external factors or associations from a competitor's performance on a particular day. Individual judges will handle different circumstances in different ways, but having the burden of certain expectations, even unconsciously, makes the job much harder and less fair to the competitors in addition to opening the judges up to criticism, even when they have made the best, most unbiased decision that they could under the circumstances.
With this reality, the only way to protect both the competitors AND the adjudicators from any bias, allegations of impropriety, or clouds over a competitor's success is to institute complete anonymity by placing the adjudicator behind a screen and identifying the competitors only by number. This is how orchestra auditions and many competitions in the classical music world operate; and while this may not be perfect, it would get rid of a lot of the problems that people complain about. Adjudicators have a hard job and sometimes a painful one. It helps them to do it to the best of their ability if they can eliminate as many potential sources of bias as possible. It also protects them from allegations of bias and impropriety.
Whenever I mention this solution, it is usually rejected on the grounds that it would make the fleadh "too serious," "take the fun out of it," or simply be too "radical" of a change. The way it is usually done places the adjudicator's table behind the screen on one side of the competitor, with the audience on the other side, so that the audience can still see the competitor. The logistics of making sure that a judge does not see any competitors from a competition that has not yet taken place would have to be dealt with, but should not be difficult.
My response to the argument that this makes it "too serious" is that the All-Ireland, at least, is already taken pretty seriously by the competitors, and if you have spent your time and money to get there, not to mention the work on your music, and particularly if you are paying to fly over from the US, you already take it seriously and would be well-served to know that there is no way you are being judged by anything other than how you play on that day.
Considering this plan for regional fleadhanna in the US brings up further concerns, specifically, whether the American fleadhanna are "friendly competition" or "serious," or even whether or not these two concepts are mutually exclusive. I would incidentally love to see judging behind screens here as well, for the same reasons, but until other issues are resolved, I doubt that it is likely to happen. From what I understand no one in US Comhaltas has the authority to institute such a change independently anyway. But the first problem is that the US fleadhanna seem to be struggling a bit with their identity, trying to be several things and fulfill different needs at once. Ostensibly, according to the syllabus, they are meant to cater to "those willing to travel to compete in the All-Ireland," and going by this, the winners should be held to the standard required to compete in the All-Ireland, by adjudicators capable of deciding which competitors are at that standard. This may mean exercising their right, as stated in the syllabus, not to award certain prizes and not to qualify competitors who are not prepared. This is one view of the US fleadhanna. Whether the adjudicators living in America are actually able to know what is being looked for in Ireland at a given time is a whole other issue.
The other school of thought, which is a rather common one among families and individuals new to the scene, is that it is simply a children's music competition. They may not even be aware that it is a preliminary round for a world-class competition, that there is a possibilty that a prize may not be awarded, and that the adjudicator may not be comparing the competitors simply to each other, but to a world-class standard. This is not helped by the fact that adjudicators themselves differ in their approach. Consider, for example, a child who competes in both flute and fiddle. The fiddle judge may follow the view that this is a competition that qualifies musicians for the All-Ireland and judges accordingly against a standard, while the flute judge assumes that they will give out every medal and ranks the competitors only against each other, even if only one of them is at the level to qualify for the All-Ireland. The competitions themselves cannot control how individual judges choose to handle it, apart from a simple reminder that "qualifying musicians for the All-Ireland is a responsibility not to be taken lightly," or some such variation.
I think that the American fleadhanna need to decide what their goal is, be consistent about it, and make it clear to the judges. The obvious solution is for the fleadhanna to start following and enforcing their own written syllabi, and giving judges the training to do so. There are other competitions for those who want something with less pressure or a lower standard, such as the numerous feiseanna, some of which have quite good music competitions. I don't see how it serves a competitor to qualify them for the All-Ireland if they are not ready. Why encourage someone, particularly a young musician who has years ahead of them to learn and improve, to go to the expense of a trip to the All-Ireland at a young age, only to find out that they are not at the level of the other competitors, which can be an even more embarassing and painful, and expensive experience than not winning at the regional level? Of course, if they don't intend to actually go to the All-Ireland, the point becomes moot, and there are people who compete for whom going to Ireland is the furthest thing from their mind. However, the purpose of the competition as stated is to qualify competitors for the All-Ireland. Why not actually run the competitions as if that is the intent, and be very clear to the competitors about what to expect? Furthermore, if there is a large enough market for it, I expect someone will rise to the occasion and organize a competition of sorts geared to the own needs of "friendly, less serious" competition. Once the basic identity and purpose of the American competitions are sorted out, then other innovations can be discussed.
I think that competition can be a great motivator and goal-setting experience for some people, and can drive them to progress, provided it is approached with the right mindset. It can also be a great way to meet other musicians, and winning can open up some nice opportunities, although winning even the all-Ireland is by no means a ticket to fame and fortune. But to make competing the best possible experience, it must be as fair as possible, with the rules and expectations clearly stated. This is the responsibility of the governing bodies that organize the competitions, and participants in the competitions have a right to expect impartiality in judging and clarity of rules and to demand that changes be instituted to achieve this if necessary. It only hurts the prestige and relevance of the competitions and their winners if everything possible is not done to insure impartial, educated adjudication with consistently high standards and an accepted common goal.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by ostrichfeathers
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
Wow, Ostrich. Thanks for the information and opinions, and for the time it took to type all that out.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
Thanks for all that, ostrichfeathers. It's been an education. It's *so* scary! I think I'll just go back into showbiz!
Jim
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
A most informative, enlightening post, ostricheathers. There is a general perception that competitions are judged unfairly, and that perception is justified so long as the meaures you suggest to ensure impartiality are not put in place. The question arises why they are not put in place, and that is a question that should perhaps be put not to Comhaltas, but to publicly funded bodies that grant-aid Comhaltas.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
I certainly didn't expect a thesis on the subject but it makes very interesting reading and the idea of 'blind' competitions makes a lot of sense on the music side. It is not too obvious these days to differentiate between fiddlers who have a modern style, but there would need to be something more on the song side, voices are easily recognised.
On the positive side, I remember an All Ireland senior fiddle competition, which lives in my brain still, between Tommy Peoples, Mairtin Byrnes and Dennis Ryan. The medals were given as follows:- 1st Mairtin, 2nd Dennis, 3rd Tommy who promptly threw his medal on the table and stormed out. He was wrong because everyone there that day agreed with the decision. So the Arbiters are not always wrong.
Thanks very much for the screed Ostrichfeathers
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by Ian Stevenson
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
I agree with some of Ostrichfeathers comments but not all. Maybe it refers more to the state's that Ireland. I have lost more all-Irelands in different categories and to be honest I don't think I was robbed at any time. I felt on many occassions I was by far the better player, but not on that particular day. When you loose it is to easy to find fault with the systems in place and some people carry this with them for ever.
One must remember that it is not just how you play your particular choosen instrument, it is also how you interppute the music. It is very hard for a judge not to be biased when they are judging something they are passionate about. I would say that over all at the end of the day they do get it right more of the time. I do accept that at times it may not seem right at all. But this is common to alot of judged sports as well, like gymnastics, figure skating, boxing and all the rest.
# Posted on December 28th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
Has anyone ever gotten their own teachers, or people you play with regularly has judges?
# Posted on December 29th 2004 by BTCpz
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
Hi again,
I'm glad people found my post of some use...sorry it got so long! I did want to make it clear that I was not trying to say that biased judging is rampant, or that the majority are incompetent. I do think, though, that the system has its problems, and that they are probably more severe in the US than in Ireland. Compaqjohn, you have a good point that it's hard not to be "biased" about something that one is passionate about. I submit that being subjective is different from being biased. Judging music is always personal and subjective, but it should not be biased towards or against external, non-musical factors, such as past success, success of family members, who your teacher is, or any such thing. An adjudicator can't totally subvert an aesthetic preference for a particular style, which is a form of musical bias, but as the adjudication manual suggests, they can (and often do) try to be open-minded when weighing the different factors, which is all you can ask of anyone. It only adds to the difficulty of their task when they must also try to forget about irrelvant external details.
I think that the vast majority of judges strive to consider only the playing on a particular day, and any measures that can be put in place to help them in this and to protect them from unreasonable accusations should be welcomed. This would also help put some of the the wild theories to rest and help competitors (and parents) accept the decisions. Of the people who lose and blame the judge, some may never accept that they lost fairly no matter what, but I would think that most are reasonable and would be able to accept their loss and be able to move on and progress as a musician if there was a greater attempt at ensuring anonymity.
By the way, you'd be surprised at how hard it can be to recognize even someone whose playing you think you know well behind a screen. Even when you think that you recognize someone, you keep second-guessing yourself, and you simply don't have time to concentrate on figuring out who it might be while you are trying to judge the competition. Strange, but true. Voice might indeed present more of a problem, but I was thinking more of the instrumental competitions anyway.
I know of several recent instances where people have had to judge competitors that they have had some form of relationship with, in both the US and Ireland...but I want to see if anyone else mentions them first! But seriously, if people think my blind competition idea is worthy of consideration, which some of you do, any ideas on how I might go about getting it out there? The line people love to give me is "We have no authority on that, it's up to Comhaltas in Ireland." I'm sure it's true, but in that case, what to do?
later~
# Posted on December 30th 2004 by ostrichfeathers
Re: Juries & Fleadhs.
An Idea that I have toyed with for some time is opening it up to the audience in the centre, hall on the day. Give them all a vote. I know this to can be messed with as well. Ireland has only one true national television channel and I feel that for the contestants that actually make it to the final that it should be televised and the country should pick the winnners by way of phone voting in much the same way as we do with the Eurovision rep. This will have problems too as a Cork contestant will receive all the vote from Cork , and kerry people will vote for anybody so long as their not from Cork and so on but it would give a better indication of the winner. It would cut out this family rubbish.
# Posted on December 30th 2004 by compaqjohn