Despite tremendous trepidation (and much buoyed by the encouragement and advice in this discussion forum), I did play for the first time in a session last week:
A question: I found I could barely hear my whistle when I played. A matter of concern for me, since I'd like to make sure I'm playing the right notes. When I sing in a crowd, I can check on my own "tuning" by sticking a finger in one ear, but obviously I can't do this while playing whistle.
To you other whistle players (or quieter instruments): What do you do in this situation?
Inkygirl, if you can't hear yourself, at least it means you're probably playing the right notes, in tune with everyone else - otherwise you'd definitely hear what you were playing!
The reason why old whistlers play the whistle from the side of the mouth, rather than straight in front, is to get it nearer to one ear in order to be able to hear in loud sessions.
Don't be fooled - even though you may not be hearing what you're playing as well as you're used to - your whistle is still very likely carrying well to the rest of the musicians. Switching to a Susato or other such noise maker generally only insights looks of pain and suffering from others in the group. Depending on the size and acoustics of the room, some whistles will 'cut' through more than others, but in the end, your aim should be to blend - not to overpower with sheer volume. Listen to some of the older recordings; many times the whistles lower register isn't as audible against the other instruments...which is normal.
Just go, play and enjoy your music. Don't worry over much about trying to hear and be heard.
Thanks for the advice about not worrying whether I can hear myself. My worry was not knowing if I was playing the wrong notes but you're right, wrong notes would stand out!
I think it's important to be able to hear yourself, if for no other reason than to know you're not messing up. I used to play mandolin with several fiddles, flutes, and accordian, and it was frustrating. As Uilleann-craic points out, others were able to hear it but I wasn't. This sparked my interest in playing banjo.
Who you sit beside in the group is important, particularly if it's a large group. Probably best to hang out with other whistle players or a single flute or fiddle instead of pipes, accordian, or loudly-played guitars or bouzoukis.
Inkygirl, I can relate to your fellings about actually playing your instrument in a session for the first time. It's a great high, isn't it?
You know - I'm new to sessions as well and play mandolin. I had the same problem that you talked about. I could not hear myself and I assumed that others could not hear me either. That was my first experience. For my second session (this past Sunday) I changed my position and sat away from the pipes and fiddles and closer to the guitar/bodhran/flute. This made a difference and I could hear myself better. Also, I think I was a little more relaxed and allowed myself to listen closer to my own playing, rather then be so focused on what the others were playing. Maybe I knew some of the tunes a little better too. I am encouraged by this and you might want to wait a few more sessions before making final conclusions. Of course.... hearing myself play this time sent me straight back to the woodshed.....
Interesting topic, though - the need (or not) for feedback in order to control and enjoy your playing.
A group of 12 of us played on stage at a folk club recently , with a full sound system. At one point, for some reason, all that came out of the monitors (the little speakers pointing back at the performers) was the guitar accompaniment. It felt very weird, and I was afraid that we sounded like total crap. But people in the audience said it was great - all the instruments could be heard properly through the audience speakers, and everyone seemed to be playing in time.
It's hard to relax when that happens grego, even when the audience asssures you that everything's OK.
I used to play a mothie at work where it was so noisy that we had to wear earplugs. I could hear the moothie perfectly in my head. But that must be in part because the mouth cavity shapes the moothie sound. I'm not sure if it's the same for whistle.
So you could try one foam earplug and see if it makes a difference. Just tell the player on that side of you that you can't stand their playing if they notice it and ask why.
It's a problem playing for dancers too. Setting up the sound system and the foldback tends to get done in an empty room - but when the dancing gets going there are dozens of people leaping about and laughing and clapping and yelling "not that hand!", and you can find yourself playing without hearing.
For me to play and not be able to hear what I'm playing is a very scary feeling. I will either stop playing or at least know that I'm not being heard over the din of the rest of the music.
Here's my solution for hearing yourself in a session: listen really hard, and eventually you'll find that you can actually separate the sound of the whistle from the wall of noise around you. It's easier said than done, but worth the effort. Also, sit next to the banjo player. Banjos are loud, but because the notes are so short it's not that hard to hear around - or through - them. Plus there's usually an empty chair or two nearby.
BTW, Debbie, a lot of Irish flute players call themselves either flute players or fluters.
As for the sheet music thing -- don't worry too much about it, but be aware that it's not so much the dots themselves that people find objectionable. The best thing you can do is to record the tunes as they're played at your new session and listen to them over and over again until you can sing them to yourself without the tape playing. You'll find that you'll likely be able to then learn them on your whistle much much faster than if you were trying to memorize notes off a page.
So glad you're having fun! Perhaps someday we'll get in some tunes together.
I have a dear friend who plays whistle very well. This person would blow harder and harder at sessions until the whistle sounded more like it was screaming than singing -- and the pitch would go sharp. It's well understood among flute and whistle players that a sharp pitch stands out and can be heard easier. The drawback is that it's off pitch. I explained this to my friend and told her that if she played normally whatever sound did come through would sound sweeter and more like what she wants. She tried it and told me that after she got used to it she seemed to hear her whistle even better. I told her I could hear her whistle better too. It's amazing how well your sound carries when it's on pitch.
I play mandolin and whistle, so I never get to hear myself in big sessions. With the mandolin I can always hear the attack of the notes, so I at least know whether or not I ame in time. Working on left-right hand co-ordination helps to optimise tone and sustain of each note, thus making it easier to hear the notes themselves.
The biggest prolblem I have with the whistle is when there is another whistle player. I often find it impossible to tell whose whistle I am hearing. Consequently, in these circumstances, I usually refrain from playing whistle (unless it is a small session and I can hear everyone clearly, or I specifically want to play together with another whistle). This does not bother me, as I always have another instrument to play.
Even when I am the only whistle player in a session, I often have poblems hearing myself (I play an Oak whistle - of similar loudness to a Generation or Feadóg). I think this influences my style of whistle playing to some extent. Lots of ornamentation and compex variations - whilst these may (or may not) be effective in solo and small group playing - tend to get lost in big sessions, and can obscure the note, leading one to lose track of one's own playing. So, I tend to drop out notes rather than add them in, and substitute rolls, triple tonguing etc, with glides and sustained notes. This allows you more time to hear and register the notes - as well as forcing one to concentrate on producing a strong, clear tone, instead of hiding behind nifty fingerwork. This at least makes me a less-bad whistle player.
...Of course, I still frequently get carried away and lose my place, having to stop mid-tune, pick it up again and hope to God no-one notices.
Just kinda skimmed the above responses so hopefully something of this nature hasn't been mentioned. I play flute, so I guess this is straying from the topic a little bit, but I had an experience once where I was playing at a mic'ed session. There were only 3 of us and I was the only person who didn't have a mic (no complaints at the time). Since I was away from the mic, I would sort of tinker quietly to myself at times. I really didn't think I was making any real audible sound, but at one point, the one musician looked at me and asked me if I knew the tunes. I responded that obviously I didn't know all the ones they were playing. Well, it seems that I was the only person who couldn't hear myself. Something with the mic being close to my ear, I guess I couldn't hear my quiet tinkering, but I guess it was heard by the other musicians. No real point to the story. Guess it's just a little warning to any who might find themselves in a similar situation.
I read somwhere..."Brother Steve's" web site I think...that you can hear yourself play the whistle better if you wear a wide brimmed hat. I don't own a wide brimmed hat but it sounds like a good idea to me.
I've been on stage numerous times as a "guest" with a fully amplified band....At some venues I can't hear a note I'm playing until I get up to about F#.
It almost takes the fun out of it. Stressfull to say the least.
I also have just skimmed down, so apologies if there's repitition here. If you literally *can't * hear yourself at all, I suggest sit away from louder instruments: banjos, nearly all boxes, pipes, and sometimes even fiddles. If this means you're a few feet away from the "action" so be it.
But whistles and flutes, although apparently not loud to their player(s), can usually be heard well, outside of the session by the punters.
The wide brim hat technique works for hearing yourself better for mandolin, fiddle, and probabaly most any other acoustic instrument. The brim reflects the sound back to your ears.
Maybe Jeremy could raise some money by selling custom "personal feedback devices" -- just the brim with a bit of elastic around the middle. With the thesession logo lovingly embroidered on each one by the elves in Zina's workshop.
Somewhere in a parallel universe, I am a saxophone player. Well...I am supposed to use the past tense here but who wants to admit it anyway....
Still - in this parallel universe, sax players are known to stand close to a wall, or a mirror and play straight into them to get the sound to bounce back to the player's ears. So much so, that products were developed - portable "walls" that attach to the instrument. Here is an example: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/eastcoastwind/eastcoastwindweb/sound_mirrors.htm Who would be the first to develop a similar device for session instruments?.......
"Personal feedback devices"! LOL -- we'll have to have the official Glee Club version, of course. Tassels and lace, I'm thinking, of gold lame and pink lycra...
Grego: the "high" coming from playing for the first time in a session. Oh dear lord, yes. It's wonderful, and I am totally hooked. It will take me years to be able to play regularly, I know, but I am having SO MUCH FUN anyway!
Zina Lee: thanks! And thanks for the tip about the term "fluters" or "flute players"
What on earth is a tin sandwich?!
And thanks SO MUCH for all your advice and encouragement! Thanks also to those who have e-mailed. I continue to be overwhelmed by the generosity of this community.
Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Hello all!
Despite tremendous trepidation (and much buoyed by the encouragement and advice in this discussion forum), I did play for the first time in a session last week:
http://www.blatherings.com/archives/002604.html
A question: I found I could barely hear my whistle when I played. A matter of concern for me, since I'd like to make sure I'm playing the right notes. When I sing in a crowd, I can check on my own "tuning" by sticking a finger in one ear, but obviously I can't do this while playing whistle.
To you other whistle players (or quieter instruments): What do you do in this situation?
Advice appreciated.
Debbie
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Inkygirl
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Get someone else to stick their finger in your ear while you play.
(Sorry!)
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
If you play beside a piper or a couple of piano accordion players, you can't possbly hear yourself playing whistle.
I play Susato when I feel confident and want to hear myself playing in a busy pub while I actually love playing Dixon's in a small, intimate session.
So which whistle do you play?
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by slainte
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
What's more worrying is if the louder instrument is off pitch - and the player doesn't know it.
Trevor
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Inkygirl, if you can't hear yourself, at least it means you're probably playing the right notes, in tune with everyone else - otherwise you'd definitely hear what you were playing!
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Ottery
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Good one, Ottery!
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Henk Bos
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
The reason why old whistlers play the whistle from the side of the mouth, rather than straight in front, is to get it nearer to one ear in order to be able to hear in loud sessions.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Don't be fooled - even though you may not be hearing what you're playing as well as you're used to - your whistle is still very likely carrying well to the rest of the musicians. Switching to a Susato or other such noise maker generally only insights looks of pain and suffering from others in the group.
Depending on the size and acoustics of the room, some whistles will 'cut' through more than others, but in the end, your aim should be to blend - not to overpower with sheer volume. Listen to some of the older recordings; many times the whistles lower register isn't as audible against the other instruments...which is normal.
Just go, play and enjoy your music. Don't worry over much about trying to hear and be heard.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by uilleann_craic
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Dow: I'll ask next time.
Slainte: A Feador whistle.
Thanks for the advice about not worrying whether I can hear myself. My worry was not knowing if I was playing the wrong notes but you're right, wrong notes would stand out!
Debbie
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Inkygirl
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
I think it's important to be able to hear yourself, if for no other reason than to know you're not messing up. I used to play mandolin with several fiddles, flutes, and accordian, and it was frustrating. As Uilleann-craic points out, others were able to hear it but I wasn't. This sparked my interest in playing banjo.
Who you sit beside in the group is important, particularly if it's a large group. Probably best to hang out with other whistle players or a single flute or fiddle instead of pipes, accordian, or loudly-played guitars or bouzoukis.
Inkygirl, I can relate to your fellings about actually playing your instrument in a session for the first time. It's a great high, isn't it?
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by grego
... oh, and avoid the loud banjo-players, too. heh,heh.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by grego
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
At times, its even tough to hear my pipes if there are two or three fiddle players going at it.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by I_Fel
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
You know - I'm new to sessions as well and play mandolin. I had the same problem that you talked about. I could not hear myself and I assumed that others could not hear me either. That was my first experience. For my second session (this past Sunday) I changed my position and sat away from the pipes and fiddles and closer to the guitar/bodhran/flute. This made a difference and I could hear myself better. Also, I think I was a little more relaxed and allowed myself to listen closer to my own playing, rather then be so focused on what the others were playing. Maybe I knew some of the tunes a little better too. I am encouraged by this and you might want to wait a few more sessions before making final conclusions. Of course.... hearing myself play this time sent me straight back to the woodshed.....
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by improziv
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Interesting topic, though - the need (or not) for feedback in order to control and enjoy your playing.
A group of 12 of us played on stage at a folk club recently , with a full sound system. At one point, for some reason, all that came out of the monitors (the little speakers pointing back at the performers) was the guitar accompaniment. It felt very weird, and I was afraid that we sounded like total crap. But people in the audience said it was great - all the instruments could be heard properly through the audience speakers, and everyone seemed to be playing in time.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by grego
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
It's hard to relax when that happens grego, even when the audience asssures you that everything's OK.
I used to play a mothie at work where it was so noisy that we had to wear earplugs. I could hear the moothie perfectly in my head. But that must be in part because the mouth cavity shapes the moothie sound. I'm not sure if it's the same for whistle.
So you could try one foam earplug and see if it makes a difference. Just tell the player on that side of you that you can't stand their playing if they notice it and ask why.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Bren
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
It's a problem playing for dancers too. Setting up the sound system and the foldback tends to get done in an empty room - but when the dancing gets going there are dozens of people leaping about and laughing and clapping and yelling "not that hand!", and you can find yourself playing without hearing.
It's character building though.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Bren - we cross posted - no, it's not like that for a whistle, you get no sound back through your mouth the way you do with a moothie.
Dave
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
OK, I'll bite. Whasa moothie?
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by grego
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Shall I tell him Bren? Or will you?
(It took me a few moments before I worked out that a mothie was a moothie!)
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Yay Debbie! Good for you. Keep it up!
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
For me to play and not be able to hear what I'm playing is a very scary feeling. I will either stop playing or at least know that I'm not being heard over the din of the rest of the music.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by griffith
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Isn't Moothie another word for a tin sandwich?
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Here's my solution for hearing yourself in a session: listen really hard, and eventually you'll find that you can actually separate the sound of the whistle from the wall of noise around you. It's easier said than done, but worth the effort. Also, sit next to the banjo player. Banjos are loud, but because the notes are so short it's not that hard to hear around - or through - them. Plus there's usually an empty chair or two nearby.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
doh!
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by grego
P.S.
BTW, Debbie, a lot of Irish flute players call themselves either flute players or fluters.
As for the sheet music thing -- don't worry too much about it, but be aware that it's not so much the dots themselves that people find objectionable. The best thing you can do is to record the tunes as they're played at your new session and listen to them over and over again until you can sing them to yourself without the tape playing. You'll find that you'll likely be able to then learn them on your whistle much much faster than if you were trying to memorize notes off a page.
So glad you're having fun! Perhaps someday we'll get in some tunes together.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
I have a dear friend who plays whistle very well. This person would blow harder and harder at sessions until the whistle sounded more like it was screaming than singing -- and the pitch would go sharp. It's well understood among flute and whistle players that a sharp pitch stands out and can be heard easier. The drawback is that it's off pitch. I explained this to my friend and told her that if she played normally whatever sound did come through would sound sweeter and more like what she wants. She tried it and told me that after she got used to it she seemed to hear her whistle even better. I told her I could hear her whistle better too. It's amazing how well your sound carries when it's on pitch.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
I play mandolin and whistle, so I never get to hear myself in big sessions. With the mandolin I can always hear the attack of the notes, so I at least know whether or not I ame in time. Working on left-right hand co-ordination helps to optimise tone and sustain of each note, thus making it easier to hear the notes themselves.
The biggest prolblem I have with the whistle is when there is another whistle player. I often find it impossible to tell whose whistle I am hearing. Consequently, in these circumstances, I usually refrain from playing whistle (unless it is a small session and I can hear everyone clearly, or I specifically want to play together with another whistle). This does not bother me, as I always have another instrument to play.
Even when I am the only whistle player in a session, I often have poblems hearing myself (I play an Oak whistle - of similar loudness to a Generation or Feadóg). I think this influences my style of whistle playing to some extent. Lots of ornamentation and compex variations - whilst these may (or may not) be effective in solo and small group playing - tend to get lost in big sessions, and can obscure the note, leading one to lose track of one's own playing. So, I tend to drop out notes rather than add them in, and substitute rolls, triple tonguing etc, with glides and sustained notes. This allows you more time to hear and register the notes - as well as forcing one to concentrate on producing a strong, clear tone, instead of hiding behind nifty fingerwork. This at least makes me a less-bad whistle player.
...Of course, I still frequently get carried away and lose my place, having to stop mid-tune, pick it up again and hope to God no-one notices.
# Posted on December 22nd 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Grego: How about Gob Iron?
(And I like playing with a banjo -- makes a nice change from Highland bagpipes.)
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Just kinda skimmed the above responses so hopefully something of this nature hasn't been mentioned. I play flute, so I guess this is straying from the topic a little bit, but I had an experience once where I was playing at a mic'ed session. There were only 3 of us and I was the only person who didn't have a mic (no complaints at the time). Since I was away from the mic, I would sort of tinker quietly to myself at times. I really didn't think I was making any real audible sound, but at one point, the one musician looked at me and asked me if I knew the tunes. I responded that obviously I didn't know all the ones they were playing. Well, it seems that I was the only person who couldn't hear myself. Something with the mic being close to my ear, I guess I couldn't hear my quiet tinkering, but I guess it was heard by the other musicians. No real point to the story. Guess it's just a little warning to any who might find themselves in a similar situation.
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by Jason G
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Inkgirl
I read somwhere..."Brother Steve's" web site I think...that you can hear yourself play the whistle better if you wear a wide brimmed hat. I don't own a wide brimmed hat but it sounds like a good idea to me.
I've been on stage numerous times as a "guest" with a fully amplified band....At some venues I can't hear a note I'm playing until I get up to about F#.
It almost takes the fun out of it. Stressfull to say the least.
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Ahhh... the "noodling" quagmire. Thanks for underlining a previous point I made on another thread from a while back, Jason.
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Aah sessions ... "I can't hear myself, so I play louder, or I just get a louder instrument." And round and round it goes ...I
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
I also have just skimmed down, so apologies if there's repitition here. If you literally *can't * hear yourself at all, I suggest sit away from louder instruments: banjos, nearly all boxes, pipes, and sometimes even fiddles. If this means you're a few feet away from the "action" so be it.
But whistles and flutes, although apparently not loud to their player(s), can usually be heard well, outside of the session by the punters.
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Gob Iron, yes! Never heard the expression, but I get the drift. We're talking the instrument where only half the notes suck, right?
And yes, those empty seats around the banjo player are left purely as a mark of respect.
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by grego
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
face piano?
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
The wide brim hat technique works for hearing yourself better for mandolin, fiddle, and probabaly most any other acoustic instrument. The brim reflects the sound back to your ears.
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by griffith
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
.....Especially when you play Mayor Harrison's Fedora.
But if you are able to lean over an empty dry part of the table you can get the sound bouncing back to you that way as well.
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Maybe Jeremy could raise some money by selling custom "personal feedback devices" -- just the brim with a bit of elastic around the middle. With the thesession logo lovingly embroidered on each one by the elves in Zina's workshop.
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Somewhere in a parallel universe, I am a saxophone player. Well...I am supposed to use the past tense here but who wants to admit it anyway....
Still - in this parallel universe, sax players are known to stand close to a wall, or a mirror and play straight into them to get the sound to bounce back to the player's ears. So much so, that products were developed - portable "walls" that attach to the instrument. Here is an example: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/eastcoastwind/eastcoastwindweb/sound_mirrors.htm Who would be the first to develop a similar device for session instruments?.......
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by improziv
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
"Personal feedback devices"! LOL -- we'll have to have the official Glee Club version, of course. Tassels and lace, I'm thinking, of gold lame and pink lycra...
# Posted on December 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Being able to hear oneself during a session?
Grego: the "high" coming from playing for the first time in a session. Oh dear lord, yes.
It's wonderful, and I am totally hooked. It will take me years to be able to play regularly, I know, but I am having SO MUCH FUN anyway!
Zina Lee: thanks! And thanks for the tip about the term "fluters" or "flute players"
What on earth is a tin sandwich?!
And thanks SO MUCH for all your advice and encouragement! Thanks also to those who have e-mailed. I continue to be overwhelmed by the generosity of this community.
Debbie
# Posted on December 24th 2004 by Inkygirl