I think this is a very important point. Many people have posted stuff along the lines of "I'm not very good" to the warming up discussion. I'm never satisfied with my playing, but I know that my level is very good, and I'm quite happy to say that. At the same time, I know I've got plenty of room for improvement, and the day that I think that I'm good enough will be the day that I stop growing musically.
I like the concept of life long learners. Isnt that what music's about? If you're into making comparisons, there will always be 'better' and 'worse' than yourself. No need for self-depreciation, or to be a braggart either, just be yourself and play from the heart.
Personally, I like flaunting my shortcomings as a fiddler once in a while...that's how I spur the rest of you into offering advice and tips.
There's also a difference between self-deprecation and a well-honed sense of humility in the face of one's own abilities. I know my musical mistakes better than anyone else on the planet because I have to listen to them (the rest of you can leave the room I think it's important that I occasionally let you know how mediocre I really can be--it should temper how much stock you put in all the ideas I post here. In short, if I'm going to offer advice here, I for one feel obligated to put it in context. I'm NOT as good as any of the fiddlers you hear on cds these days. Even after 20 years, I'm still stuggling to learn this stuff. So when you read my posts, realize they come from a fellow student of the music, not an accomplished guru.
That said, if some of you ARE as good as what we hear on cds, please help guide us along the journey.
I agree with all of the above but there is also an element of gamesmanship at play. It's the
"Aw shucks, I'm not that good" line you hear right before they rip up a tune. It's about lowering
expectations and then doing better. Cyclists are notorious for this game; "Oh I haven't ridden in a month",
"Gosh my knee has been hurting me"... ad nauseum and then they blow everybody away.
Jaysus, of COURSE I stick in stuff about how I'm not a very good player, because I'm not. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I am, because that would be misleading. I happen to have lots of knowledge and even more trivia stuffed into my head, and I am by nature and avocation a teacher, but that doesn't make me a good player.
That takes actual PRACTISE. So, since I have no time to practise, I am, ergo, not a good player.
It's not self-deprecation, it's the god's honest truth. So there. Pbbbbbffffftttthhhhht.
Be as kind as you like to yourself. Me, I'm kind to me when I warrant it and not when I don't, at least I hope so. Heh.
Yipes, I had a brief mental flash of me as an over-achiever. Eek.
Self-deprecating remarks measures the distance of the music we make from the music we hear in our heads. For some of us, it's a very wide distance indeed!
It's a great boost to my ego that so many people have responded to this thread. But then, it's probably the one thing we, players of all instruments, of different abilitiies and different stages in the learning process, have in common.
Let's face it, musicians wouldn't be musicians if they didn't put themselves down. Without self criticism you never get any better. Banning self-deprecatory comments from The Session would be stilting our musical development.
To know where you stand, musically, to really understand your good and your bad points, says a lot about how you live your live. Nobody can do without a sufficient dose of realism to get through life, and the musical aspect of it all is no exception.
I'd like to raise another question that I think is closely related to the one at hand: I go to sessions a lot, and I keep bumping into players who think of themselves as God's gift to the world of traditional music, but haven't got the level of musicianship to prove it. And I find that exceptionally common in bodhran-players: in love with their instrument and their contribution to the session, and wrecking the real session-atmosphere within minutes.
You should know what kind of musician you are, and never set unrealistic goals for yourself.
And there's another thing: among the singers I know, a surprisingly high percentage of them haven't got a clue where they stand in the order of things, i.e. how good they really are. Now why is that?
I think this is a very interesting topic because it is very difficult for an individual to objectively judge their own ability. As an exercise (and a good one... I recommend it), I sometimes record myself. My opinion of how I played while recording is quite often at odds with my opinion after listening the to the recording.
The more I play, and the better I get, the more I realize how bad I am. I been playing for almost 10 years. If I keep improving, I will probably end up quitting in disgust .
You said it elder1. I recorded myself two weeks back and after listening to it a dark depression came over me that sent me to bed for the rest of the day (covers pulled over head). If you ever have this experience, remember, a lot of milk and oreo cookies helps!
since i posted a silly reply, i thought i should say something serious, too.
i've been playing anglo concertina for close to two years, and started learning fiddle in november. as someone else said, the more i learn the more i realize i don't know, and can't do. i am often frustrated with my playing ...
on the other hand, i've learned from other musicians that my playing is often better than i think it is, and that i have a good ear for tunes (especially on the fiddle). of course, i'd never notice these things if someone didn't point it out (sigh). i tend to be engrossed in hearing the things i do wrong ...
something else i've noticed is that i have this sort of sliding scale i use to evaluate my progress in either instrument. it often makes me feel like i'm losing ground ... but what i've figured out is actually happening at these times is that my expectations have risen, and because of that my playing seems worse than it actually is. as a friend pointed out when i was in one of these periods when i thought i was backsliding: 'hey, you f**ck up far more complicated tunes now than you could have attempted even a couple of weeks ago'
as to recording myself, i haven't had the nerve. i did radio for 20 years and never got used to the recorded sound of my voice ...
Milk and Oreo cookies...YEA!! But amen to Jill's first comment. It's an attitude I try hard to maintain, but it's not easy. Usually now when I tape myself I can nod my head and say, "hey, better sounding than last year!". Eleyne, your friend is very wise. Expectations rise and so there is a continual feeling of inadequecy for some of us! I worry that someday I may be really quite good and *never know it*. I'll be too busy thinking, "but I can't do this and this and this...." And Ger, many of the singers I've met think a *lot* of themselves and really dislike each other. To the point of refusing to come to a session if they know so-and-so is going to be there. Diva Central!
For me, what it boils down to is trying to be as objective as I possibly can about what I can and cannot do on my 'cello. I know that I can sit down and play movements from the Bach Suites, because I've known them for years, and that is something I can do well. BUT . . . ask me to improvise bebop in the higher positions, and I'd sound like a ??*@! Back to the grindstone. All I'm saying is: I think it's just as important to pat yourself on the back for what you can play, as it is to know what you still have to practise, and practise, and practise . . .
When I sing, I'm always afraid people are cringeing and saying "Oh, no, not her again..." I love to sing, and would sing all night, but I only sing when I'm invited--and often, I decline then. There are other singers, and they should have a chance, too, and I think there should only be 1 or 2 songs per session.
On my concertina, I am far more objective. I KNOW I'm a beginner, but working hard at getting better. I had a nice surprise when I was invited to sit in on an informal recording session a couple of weeks ago. Who was that?? It was me, playing, and it sounded nice!
Sarah, I have been playing the anglo concertina for about 2 years, also...
Well, I think you'll generally find the whole "moving scale" of expectations thing to be more highlighted in ITM than in most thngs where there's both an art and craft to what you're doing -- it seems to be sort of inherently built in. There's that whole thing when you first start where you know you're totally dreadful and would never play out in public, there's the bit when you become intermediate in ability and get cocky and think you're pretty damned good, thanks very much, and then you get a little more educated and realize that actually you've got a terribly long way to go still, and then you get even better and realize that you're never going to get as good as the sound you hear in your head, or even as good as your heroes, because they keep moving in the music at roughly the same rate as you do. It probably explains why so many great players are also quite off-hand and modest about their playing.
If a player is not self-deprecatory or at least modest about their abilities, it usually comes to light that they're not particularly well-educated in the music, because players who *are* generally know that there's no end to the learning ever. (Either that, or they're just not very nice people. Heh.)
That's not to say that you can't be both modest about your abilities and self-confident in those abilities as well.
Since there's usually no such thing as a "better" player at those rarified heights of players we all consider our heroes -- just "different" -- taking care to be modest or at the very least it's more extroverted cousin, self-deprecation, keeps one from looking a complete arse, you know?
It helps to remember that "self-deprecation" and "modesty" are very different things. You can be self-deprecatory without being the least bit modest (and vice-versa), and you can be self-deprecatory and still be quite confident in your own abilities.
I've also noticed that the really fine players are quite in tune to their shortcomings--they know precisely what aspects of their playing they still need to work on (even tho the rest of us might hear them as "perfect"). Of course, most of them can articulate these problem areas pretty well, having focused on them. And that might sound like self-deprecation or false modesty, but it's actually just a sharp sense of reality. In workshops, I've seen top players demonstrate a technique, only to repeat it several times until they get it "right." They're aware of when their playing is "on" and when it's not.
As a student of the music, I aspire to that same awareness. I think it's important to critique yourself (but not when in the throes of playing in public--that's the time for relaxing and enjoying whatever noise comes out and to be able to talk about it in specific terms. Most people do a better job of thinking about something if they can put a label or name to it. So instead of saying, "I sound awful," I get more mileage out of saying, "My tone is scratchy and thin. I want to make it rounder and warm." Some of this naturally carries over into more general conversations, especially here online where we don't have the benefit of hearing each other play.
I like poet Robert Frost's response to an overly enthusiastic and glowing introduction for a reading he was to give one night. After the applause died away, he said, "Remember, it's only poetry."
And don't forget the rich session tradition of insulting your neighbors. That's half the crack, right? And if you can't insult yourself, what fun would that be?
Will, you are right on. Mostly I am saying - it doesn't sound like music - it will never sound like music what the heck am I doing...however, to put a specific on it - like a thin tone - that is something that can be addressed - and focused on and *fixed* ; ) it makes the problems less of sweeping generalization and more of a realistic constructive criticism
now let me see...thin tone, lacks rhythm, sloppy bowing, lousy intonation...hmmm...
This is a real sticky molasses issue. The thing I have trouble understanding is the fairly good
players who are not only self-deprecating, but who refuse to even play in public. Yet, there is a
whole host of people who are not as good who play out regularly, and even give lessons.
This problem is complicated by the fact that there are not many pipers in Colorado, so anyone
who tries to play them out gets attention, even the novices or intermediate players.
I'm thinking of someone who plays flute really well, and knows lots of tunes, but has been playing
the pipes only about as long as I have - about one and a half years. But, he's much better than I
am. Since his standards are much higher than mine, I'm out there trying to join in sessions and
get some exposure to playing with others and learning tunes. He's not out playing the pipes. He's
playing flute, and only a few know he's learning pipes. So, when I play, I think it's important
to recognize there are better players than myself who don't feel ready to go public with their
playing yet.
I find that since I'm interested in playing in public, I have to deal with public relations. People
ask me all the time how long I've been playing - or they want to know what I think about playing
the pipes in general. I feel I have to tell them that I am somewhere in the middle of the spectrum
of pipers who have some skills, but don't know as many tunes as others who have been doing this all
there lives. I don't think it's being honest to be completely self-deprecating, because better players
than I will tell the same people that they feel that they "suck." Well, they don't, really. I don't either,
but I'm not as good as some who will tell you they do "stink."
Meanwhile there are a few rock bands out there that are so rotten that they can't event get through
a sold-out concert without having to play the same lame song twice. They are raking in the
money. These guys know that they are hot, and their crowd agrees. What shall we do?
We work hard learning to play this stuff, and we have high musical standards that we don't feel
we meet. Well, okay, we understand that part. The problem is other people don't have the
same standards as we do, and there isn't an easy way to explain that to them. There standard
may be higher or lower, and we will never really know. Telling them, "I stink at this." won't do
anybody any favors. They may have heard this music for the first time thinking it was wonderful,
or they may know the music very well, and think you are coming along pretty well. They can
always decide for themselves whether or not they think you truly stink.
So my approach is to give people a quick summary of where I am. I have been learning this for
about a year and a half, and there are some really good players who I listen to. If the inquisitive
listener is still interested, I'll tell them about some recordings to get. I'll never be
self-deprecating, though. I'll also make sure I don't ask for too much money. Will, you have the right
idea on how to do self-criticism. If someone goes overboard in praise or criticism, for that matter,
then "It's only music," along with a little laughter is good. If someone gives a little praise, a
nice "thank you," will do.
Self deprecation is somehow tied with a kind of pride that I don't want any part of. When It comes
down to it, I'm playing for God and for myself most of all. Quoting a great sailor and hornpipe
player, "I yam what I yam."
On the other hand, hearing a really good, top notch player make a self deprecating pun can be a great
barell of laughs. This only works for me if before I start laughing, my gut just wants to burst out,
"bull$#1^!" In response to hearing this from one of the greats.
Dirk's comments reminded me of a gig we did once where some people came up afterwards full of compliments and one guy asked me if we had any CDs. And I said yes, but they're all by other bands....
I've also been told that the difference in our local group's musicianship and the touring ITM bands' is 10 percent talent and 90 percent audacity. Personally, I'd put it at more like 30/70, and I'm the first to admit that I don't WANT to be that audacious. I'm happiest when playing in a low-key session among friends, where audacity has no role. I honestly have no musical ambition beyond that, and the fact that ITM honors that approach is part of what attracted me to the music in the first place. Remember that there are lots of great musicians who rarely leave their living rooms. Whether you choose to play at the local pub on Saturdays or stay home and annoy the cat, either is an honorable expression of the music.
Yeah? How many people (and not just musicians) would be willing to live the rest of their lives without ever hearing it again?
As for self-deprecation, many of us are measuring ourselves against top-notch professionals and recording artists. If you don't have 8 hours a day to do nothing but play, it's going to be hard to catch up to them! I figger, if people danced (or at least tapped their feet) while I was playing and applaud afterwards, I'm doing OK. If not, I can always kill them...
Remember: failure teaches us to appreciate success!
I like JeffKs idea of killing unapreciative audiances aswell, heheheheehhehehehehhehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
heheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheeeheeeheeeharahharhar
harharajarhar......sorry.....hehe!!!!
JeffK, I'm typing this in here with a big grin, hoping against hope you'll take this with all the lightheartedness and fun and musical commiseration I intend as I send it....but if those people *weren't* dancing (or at least tapping their feet) while you were playing, then killing them would be redundant, seeing as how they've already been well tortured.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist. *grin*
Reminds me of the first time anyone ever danced to my fiddle playing. I had just come from a lesson and was waiting in a park to go to a movie in the theater across the street. With 20 minutes to kill, I uncased the fiddle and stumbled through a string of jigs. Along came a woman, also waiting for the movie, and she started step dancing lightly off to one side. I was so startled that I stopped playing and asked, "What are you doing?!"
Duh.....but it had not occurred to me before then that *my* music might be danceable.
On your other point JeffK, I completely agree. Yes, yes, "life without music would be a mistake," but so would life without ice cream, sandy beaches, 30-inch powder days, kite flying, good stories, meteor showers, well-made hand tools, and comfortable socks. As a musician, it's my obligation to make each note seem like the most important thing in the world when I'm playing it. But part of the power of doing that comes in the surprise people feel in being moved by a plain and simple melody played with passion.
Regarding "It's only music." Well, yes the whole of the body of music is important to our lives,
and we miss it most when nobody is allowed to play it, and someone's hut gets burned. But a
single performance is not a matter of life and death or a matter of survival. So why do we
get so nervous, and feel the real flight-or-fight response before performing it, or when we mess up
on stage? Likewise, criticism or praise may create the same emotions. Maybe pride for the
music itself is pushed away by the pride for the musician.
Sure, I'd fight for my right to hear and play the music, but let's not get to thinking that our mistakes
are going to cause any real suffering. The audience is always free to leave the pub, and the pub
owner can always cancel the session. After they leave the pub with their grief about the band, they'll
miss the wise cracks that the fiddler makes to the flute player who caused the misery. They could
have had a great laugh at the band's expense, but no, they decided that their ivory tower of perfect music
appreciation was compromised. Bad music has ruined their night. They better go to the other pub with
the loud blues band so they can rupture their eardrums instead.
Self deprecation isn't too cool, but making fun of the other players in the session? Now that's
good Crack! The first time I went to our local session, I was feeling shy, and Zina suggested
that she could throw a rug over me to quiet the loud pipes. After a good laugh it was much easier
for me after that.
As far as unappreciative audiences go... Why not sing a good song about them that pokes
fun at them? Maybe they'll lighten up. Maybe you will be successful in slipping out the door
before the bar fight, even.
-Dirk ( now I'm a perspiring piper)
That assumes that anyone besides the musicians are listening to the singer, Dirk. *grin*
I have to say that I don't agree with you about self-deprecation, Dirk. It all has to do with knowing your limitations, as Will and others mention above, and being willing to joke about them, and being honest with yourself about what you can and can't do yet. Perhaps we have different definitions of self-deprecation...
Will, what about power tools? Would any guy's life be totally complete without at least one really good power tool? (We have this great air compressor that I bought when we put in a wood floor...now that's MY power tool. Heh.) Not any of the guys I've ever met!
I live on an interesting block. The neighbors watch me dig a 4-foot deep trench 30 feet to lay electrical service out to the garage I built (used a real framing hammer, not an air-fed nail gun, thank you), and they tease me for digging the trench with a shovel, rock bar, and pulaski (like a pick axe). Their other neighbor, to the north, once used a backhoe to shovel snow off his sidewalk. We are at opposite ends of the tool spectrum. We all get along just fine.
I worked wilderness trail crew for four years--no power tools allowed.
Maybe we are talking about different levels of self-deprecation here, Zina. I'm talking about good musicians who say they are not good enough to play in public or who really go overboard in
telling us how awful they are, when they know they are better than many who are playing in sessions. In that case, self deprecation is more than self depreciating for them. It's discouraging to us novices as well.
Honesty about ones limitations is fine, in my opinion. That's different about waxing poetic about how unacceptable
Speaking of power tools, anyone know of a good power tool for stapling wire fence to a cedar fence post? Zina thinks there is such a thing. I always used a small sledge, but I'm behind the times.
hmm - I'd say that there is no way I'd ever tape myself playing again - its devastating...I'd also say - as was suggested before, that people who we all think are really great players - who dont feel that way themselves are proabably aiming higher. And that is fine - they probably dont think they are any good at all. Ive a friend who is a lovely player - really, awesome - if someone pays him a compliment he gets defensive & wonders what they want from him....but I understand 100% - I dont think I've ever been satisfied with my playing - and maybe I never will - but thats what makes me more determined. How boring if everyone in the world thought that they were good - where would the challenge be in that? Hey - how did we get onto the subject of tools?
Yer a hippie at heart, Will. You really should go get that tattoo in the middle of your forehead now. *snicker* We got onto tools by way of Will, of course, bb. It's always Will's fault. When Will dies, engraved upon his heart they'll find an adze, I guess. Heh.
How LONG did it take you to dig that trench, Harmon?
Dirk, I keep telling you a visit to Home Depot will open your eyes -- just look in the power tools for the air assisted stuff. If you're nice to me, I'll let you borrow my air compressor.
ANYway, bb, I don't care about listening to myself play -- I can't be devastated by it, because I already consider myself to be not very good. I think my standards that I'm looking for my playing to meet are probably way too high for me to ever reach, but I also think that I may get close some day (if I ever start practising regularly). Sure, our little group of players sometimes sounds just great, for us, but I also always want us to get better than that.
So, I'll continue to self-deprecate until I get so good I can merely be modest.
I figure that taping myself occasionally is the only way I'll get a relatively objective view of my playing! . It was devastating in the beginning but I just kept doing it anyway. I taped myself the other day after not doing so for a year and I couldn't bring myself to listen to the tape for a day or two. My husband said, "If you don't think you've improved just listen to that tape" so finally I did. And he was right.
So, I'm further along than some and will probably not ever reach the skill level of others, so what? As long as I see improvement over time, content. Soon, I hope to be able to start playing "from the heart" and not think so much about the mechanical aspects while I'm playing!
Will, thanks for adding a new word to my tool vocabulary....Pulaski! Can't wait to see my Mom's face when I holler "hey, mom, where d'ya keep the Pulaski?" next time I try to plant something in our slate-and-rock-laden property!
Even in this age of perfect digital recording, we shouldn't forget the fact that music is an event, something you do because you like it. If it makes you feel good, that's more important than being perfect. If it makes someone else feel good, then that's what it's all about.
I have an artesanal CD, and i'm working on my second one. That first CD was recorded almost 10 years ago. I know pretty much all the mistakes that are in there, all the notes that are not in tune, etc. So, not perfect by any stretch, not good enough to be released by a commercial label. However, it's a nice thing to listen to, and i still sell a few, here and there. Somehow, nobody complains about the wrong notes.
Another thing, if you're recording yourself at home with a cheap cassete recorder, remember that the quality of the sound is not going to be true to reality. Use the recording to check your phrasing and intonation, not to worry about the sound quality.
Here's what a pulaski looks like, BTW. It was invented by Edward Pulaski, a pioneer in wildfire containment in the US. It's a small multi-purpose tool that firefighters carry into the jungle. http://store1.yimg.com/I/cspoutdoors_1643_12250090
Good points, Glauber. That's pretty much what I use the recording for, plus ideas on where an ornament might sound good. Sometimes we get out the mics and MD recorder for a more realistic take, or if Kevin wants to add a guitar backing or something. Just messing about.
I don't worry so much about being perfect anymore, not after seeing folks like Tommy Peoples and Martin Hayes live. I want to get the "Hayes eye-roll" perfected so I can do it when I mess up, too! That cracked me up the first time I saw him. And poor Tommy was sooooo nervous at first. Heh, I'm down right calm when I'm playing in public, compared to him. This nervousness and self depreciation seems to run from top to bottom in the musicians universe!
So, I already have a Pulaski and didn't even know it! And now I have the history, too. Speaking of wildfires, I also have a MacLeod which is useful for raking and smoothing gravel as well raking over hotspots. BTW, power tools are scary. Things happen waaay to fast, bad as well as good. No thanks! I don't even like staple guns
Oh, I love power tools! I tried using a regular stapler the first time I put in a hardwood floor. Even my husband had a tough time putting a staple all the way through. Then I used the air assisted one. My god!, I thought. No *wonder* men love power tools! Heh. I felt so, so, macho and competent and powerful and all that. One strong "bap" with the mallet, and that staple was down in the floorboard with nary a squeak, just a loud bang. Of course, the first time the air compressor turned itself back on to regain pressure, I just about jumped out of my skin. *grin*
Chris, put a video up online of you doing the Hayes eye-roll. I can hardly wait to see it.
Well, the tool thread really came from Zina--based on my earlier post, we could as well be talking about our favorite beaches around the world, or socks.
I dug the trench in two days. Probably could have done it faster, but I had to tunnel around and under a bunch of big roots from our 80-foot blue spruce (didn't want to risk hurting this old tree by cutting a root on my way to the garage).
A pulaski is a wonderful tool--you can build miles of trail, dig out stumps, put out a fire, chop through downfall, even fell, buck, and split firewood with one.
Fiddler Frank Ferrell once had to follow Martin Hayes at a concert. Martin pulled out all the stops with his multiple triplet, arpeggiated, layered settings of some fast reels. When Frank came on stage, he was waving a white flag of surrender tied to his fiddle bow....
It's also good to hear about the pro's making mistakes (I didn't know that Hayes ever did anything worth rolling his eyes over). I've seen a top whistle player stop in mid stream on a solo in front of 500 people, laugh, and cheerfully carry on. And Johnny Cunningham once stopped dead in the middle of a reel. He looked at the audience and said, "Oops. Well that's never happened before." When he got to the end of the set, he explained that it suddenly felt like the bow was going in the "wrong" direction. "It's humbling," he said with a grin, "when you've got a 50/50 chance and you get it wrong."
I asked Kevin Burke once how he got the "pop" into his polkas, and when he tried to show me, the pop wasn't there. Like any good craftsman, he blamed his tools..."Da fiddle isn't workin' properly today," he said.
It helps, doesn't it, to know that even the greats struggle with inconsistency and lapses, and subsequent crises of confidence? I think the trick to dealing with all this is to not make too big a deal out of it, to shrug it off with a smile or a joke and move on. And that's what a little self-deprecating humor is all about. It's one way to remind others--and ourselves--that perfection isn't important.
P.S. I don't like to tape myself either. It limits my range of motion and the next day it really hurts taking all that duct tape off, especially on the hairy parts....
Dirk, what you want is called a Crown Stapler, and you'll need a compressor to go with it. You can probably get the whole deal for around $300. Sounds like a lot, but the compressor has many other uses - like inflating bagpipes!
Harking back a ways in the thread, I like torturing my audiences. I also like Fava beans and a nice Chianti *slurp*
Oh, man, great stories Will! A white flag *snort*! Usually Hayes does the eye roll when he lands on the e-string wrong and gets the dog whistle sound. Why I use wound "e" strings reason #1. The bow "going in the wrong direction" thing I'm trying to learn to just power through on, but most times I stop too! And Kevin's reasoning is an beautiful thing. I shall use it, too! Hey Will, but duct tape saves on Nair! Probably cheaper! Heh.
It would have to be a video, cuz a photo would make me look like I was about to pass out *snicker*. There she goes....clunk. And Zina, the "first" time you put in a hardwood floor??? Ok, we got, Irish dance teacher, Irish fiddler, self-described computer geek, Irish stepdance dress maker, and hardwood floor installer. Why in the world would anyone think you were an over-achiever? I'm just going to go to bed and pull the covers over my head now...*grin*
That this thread is so popular is proof that we are all hard on ourselves. As a schoitrad baby, I am regularly reguired to submit a
recording of myself for evaluation by a world class player. This is very
humbling but helpful. My stated goal is to get good enough by the time I'm 80 for people to comment, "Man he must have been wonderful when he was in his prime." The truth will be that when I'm 80 I'll be the best I've ever been!
Ah...socks...I have a cat that steals my socks every morning. I toss them on the bed - and before I can turn around - bam...they are gone to some hidey hole... I am fortunate that they show up around my shoes later when I am ready to head out...
Same little clever animal tears around the house while I am playing - stops to bite my leg as me speeds through the living room...ouch...yup - no false pride about my music -there is not strutting around with a 10 pounds of fur attached to you leg... on another note (no pun intended) it's nice to know Mr. Burke and I do have something in common...by some coincidence my fiddle isn't working today either.... ; )
I´m afraid I am a too bad craftsman to use a Pulaski - remember with pain what I did to my left foot with the axe when I made firewood the last time. And my english is too bad too to use too and to properly .... at least I´m too german to get my thinking and talking from square to easy. But I don´t take my fiddle case to a Pub to leave the fiddle inside. I play at least one or two tunes ... no matter how poor my playing might be compared to the other musicians. And back home I try to weave my bow into the strings, whenever I find the time for it.....self-deprication is ok as long as it doesn´t keeps us away from having fun and keep going. Volker
Well said Volker. So if we ever convene a session of people from The Session, we will know you by your limp?
And your english is far better than my german.... About the only thing I can remember from highschool german class is "Ich kann meine gummischuhe nicht gefinden."
We seem to be circling toward a sense that self-deprecation is fine as long as it's part of the crack and fun, rather than a serious attempt to put oneself down, and that it's also a convenient way to deflect a compliment or a crowd of ITM groupies and put the focus back on the music itself (where it belongs).
... the limp is very faint - it is affecting slowly played tunes in a remarkable way (what comes from walking around while practising).
Your only chance to know me will be the leaking wellington, but that depends on the weather ... as I already told Zina, I wish(&know) a lot of people from TheSession will meet in the same pub somewhere in the west of Ireland by coincidence some day and have a session....you will know me then! ;o) Volker
Gosh, have a few busy days when you can't give much time to 'The Session' and the threads have run away again. Recon Will is right. Its the music that's important - that's why I play ITM, anyway - simply have to (like breathing, eating, sleeping and writing). I like live sessions and sometimes have a really great time at them, but this internet session takes things to a depth that I've never encountered live. Recon its egos that get in the way - for some musos a little self deprecation could go a long way. Maybe if they didn't think so highly of themselves, they might enjoy sharing tunes instead of being out to dominate other musos.
Have just come back from the feis in Ullapool.Had a great time.I am by no means a good fiddler.I only started learning about 2 years ago.The feis was great,I learnt quite a lot and had a lot of encouragement from the tutors.I made loads of mistakes and will continue to do so but as i'm going along I'm also learning.
I have come across musicians who give you the cold shoulder but to be honest this just makes me even more determined to play well.
I love the music and even though I'm not that good i'm going to keep at it.
Amanda
Good for you, Amanda! You'll find that really top-notch players are for the most part usually very helpful to beginners -- and those who are snooty to beginners tend to be only second rate. A nice thought when you get snooted, yeah? Heh.
Anyway, keep at it for sure. It's the only way to really get any better, no matter what other shortcuts seem to look good.
Self -Deprecation
Self -Deprecation
Why do members of The Session grab any opportunity to say what dreadful musicians they are?
You're making me feel guilty for being kind to myself.
# Posted on May 3rd 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Self -Deprecation
I think this is a very important point. Many people have posted stuff along the lines of "I'm not very good" to the warming up discussion. I'm never satisfied with my playing, but I know that my level is very good, and I'm quite happy to say that. At the same time, I know I've got plenty of room for improvement, and the day that I think that I'm good enough will be the day that I stop growing musically.
Jonathan
# Posted on May 3rd 2002 by Jonathan
Re: Self -Deprecation
I think it's a caveat, no one likes a braggart.
# Posted on May 3rd 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Self -Deprecation
I like the concept of life long learners. Isnt that what music's about? If you're into making comparisons, there will always be 'better' and 'worse' than yourself. No need for self-depreciation, or to be a braggart either, just be yourself and play from the heart.
# Posted on May 3rd 2002 by Jill
Re: Self -Deprecation
Personally, I like flaunting my shortcomings as a fiddler once in a while...that's how I spur the rest of you into offering advice and tips.
I think it's important that I occasionally let you know how mediocre I really can be--it should temper how much stock you put in all the ideas I post here. In short, if I'm going to offer advice here, I for one feel obligated to put it in context. I'm NOT as good as any of the fiddlers you hear on cds these days. Even after 20 years, I'm still stuggling to learn this stuff. So when you read my posts, realize they come from a fellow student of the music, not an accomplished guru.
There's also a difference between self-deprecation and a well-honed sense of humility in the face of one's own abilities. I know my musical mistakes better than anyone else on the planet because I have to listen to them (the rest of you can leave the room
That said, if some of you ARE as good as what we hear on cds, please help guide us along the journey.
# Posted on May 4th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Self -Deprecation
I agree with all of the above but there is also an element of gamesmanship at play. It's the
"Aw shucks, I'm not that good" line you hear right before they rip up a tune. It's about lowering
expectations and then doing better. Cyclists are notorious for this game; "Oh I haven't ridden in a month",
"Gosh my knee has been hurting me"... ad nauseum and then they blow everybody away.
# Posted on May 4th 2002 by Crusty
Re: Self -Deprecation
So I can blame all my sandbagging in The Session on my passion for mountain biking?
# Posted on May 4th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Self -Deprecation
Heh. You guys.
Jaysus, of COURSE I stick in stuff about how I'm not a very good player, because I'm not. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I am, because that would be misleading. I happen to have lots of knowledge and even more trivia stuffed into my head, and I am by nature and avocation a teacher, but that doesn't make me a good player.
That takes actual PRACTISE. So, since I have no time to practise, I am, ergo, not a good player.
It's not self-deprecation, it's the god's honest truth. So there. Pbbbbbffffftttthhhhht.
Be as kind as you like to yourself. Me, I'm kind to me when I warrant it and not when I don't, at least I hope so. Heh.
Yipes, I had a brief mental flash of me as an over-achiever. Eek.
Zina
# Posted on May 4th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Self -Deprecation
Musos are their own worst critics. You come across as bubbly and brilliant Zina - I bet that's how you play, too!
# Posted on May 4th 2002 by Jill
Re: Self -Deprecation
Self-deprecating remarks measures the distance of the music we make from the music we hear in our heads. For some of us, it's a very wide distance indeed!
# Posted on May 4th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Self -Deprecation
nope, sorry. all of you are wrong.
i'm the worst player here. absolutely terrible. no contest.
so there
sarah
# Posted on May 4th 2002 by sarahc
Re: Self -Deprecation
Ah! You haven't heard me on fiddle!
# Posted on May 4th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Self -Deprecation
It's a great boost to my ego that so many people have responded to this thread. But then, it's probably the one thing we, players of all instruments, of different abilitiies and different stages in the learning process, have in common.
Let's face it, musicians wouldn't be musicians if they didn't put themselves down. Without self criticism you never get any better. Banning self-deprecatory comments from The Session would be stilting our musical development.
# Posted on May 4th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Self -Deprecation
Ah, to be sure, its a hard road. What's wrong with a little harmless grumble along the way, eh!
# Posted on May 5th 2002 by Jill
Re: Self -Deprecation
To know where you stand, musically, to really understand your good and your bad points, says a lot about how you live your live. Nobody can do without a sufficient dose of realism to get through life, and the musical aspect of it all is no exception.
I'd like to raise another question that I think is closely related to the one at hand: I go to sessions a lot, and I keep bumping into players who think of themselves as God's gift to the world of traditional music, but haven't got the level of musicianship to prove it. And I find that exceptionally common in bodhran-players: in love with their instrument and their contribution to the session, and wrecking the real session-atmosphere within minutes.
You should know what kind of musician you are, and never set unrealistic goals for yourself.
And there's another thing: among the singers I know, a surprisingly high percentage of them haven't got a clue where they stand in the order of things, i.e. how good they really are. Now why is that?
Slan,
Ger
# Posted on May 5th 2002 by Emerald BT
Re: Self -Deprecation
I think this is a very interesting topic because it is very difficult for an individual to objectively judge their own ability. As an exercise (and a good one... I recommend it), I sometimes record myself. My opinion of how I played while recording is quite often at odds with my opinion after listening the to the recording.
.
The more I play, and the better I get, the more I realize how bad I am. I been playing for almost 10 years. If I keep improving, I will probably end up quitting in disgust
Mark Elder
# Posted on May 5th 2002 by elder1
Re: Self -Deprecation
You said it elder1. I recorded myself two weeks back and after listening to it a dark depression came over me that sent me to bed for the rest of the day (covers pulled over head). If you ever have this experience, remember, a lot of milk and oreo cookies helps!
# Posted on May 5th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Self -Deprecation
since i posted a silly reply, i thought i should say something serious, too.
i've been playing anglo concertina for close to two years, and started learning fiddle in november. as someone else said, the more i learn the more i realize i don't know, and can't do. i am often frustrated with my playing ...
on the other hand, i've learned from other musicians that my playing is often better than i think it is, and that i have a good ear for tunes (especially on the fiddle). of course, i'd never notice these things if someone didn't point it out (sigh). i tend to be engrossed in hearing the things i do wrong ...
something else i've noticed is that i have this sort of sliding scale i use to evaluate my progress in either instrument. it often makes me feel like i'm losing ground ... but what i've figured out is actually happening at these times is that my expectations have risen, and because of that my playing seems worse than it actually is. as a friend pointed out when i was in one of these periods when i thought i was backsliding: 'hey, you f**ck up far more complicated tunes now than you could have attempted even a couple of weeks ago'
as to recording myself, i haven't had the nerve. i did radio for 20 years and never got used to the recorded sound of my voice ...
sarah
# Posted on May 5th 2002 by sarahc
Re: Self -Deprecation
Milk and Oreo cookies...YEA!! But amen to Jill's first comment. It's an attitude I try hard to maintain, but it's not easy. Usually now when I tape myself I can nod my head and say, "hey, better sounding than last year!". Eleyne, your friend is very wise. Expectations rise and so there is a continual feeling of inadequecy for some of us! I worry that someday I may be really quite good and *never know it*. I'll be too busy thinking, "but I can't do this and this and this...." And Ger, many of the singers I've met think a *lot* of themselves and really dislike each other. To the point of refusing to come to a session if they know so-and-so is going to be there. Diva Central!
# Posted on May 5th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Self -Deprecation
For me, what it boils down to is trying to be as objective as I possibly can about what I can and cannot do on my 'cello. I know that I can sit down and play movements from the Bach Suites, because I've known them for years, and that is something I can do well. BUT . . . ask me to improvise bebop in the higher positions, and I'd sound like a ??*@! Back to the grindstone. All I'm saying is: I think it's just as important to pat yourself on the back for what you can play, as it is to know what you still have to practise, and practise, and practise . . .
Jonathan.
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by Jonathan
Re: Self -Deprecation
When I sing, I'm always afraid people are cringeing and saying "Oh, no, not her again..." I love to sing, and would sing all night, but I only sing when I'm invited--and often, I decline then. There are other singers, and they should have a chance, too, and I think there should only be 1 or 2 songs per session.
On my concertina, I am far more objective. I KNOW I'm a beginner, but working hard at getting better. I had a nice surprise when I was invited to sit in on an informal recording session a couple of weeks ago. Who was that?? It was me, playing, and it sounded nice!
Sarah, I have been playing the anglo concertina for about 2 years, also...
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by woman of the house
Re: Self -Deprecation
Well, I think you'll generally find the whole "moving scale" of expectations thing to be more highlighted in ITM than in most thngs where there's both an art and craft to what you're doing -- it seems to be sort of inherently built in. There's that whole thing when you first start where you know you're totally dreadful and would never play out in public, there's the bit when you become intermediate in ability and get cocky and think you're pretty damned good, thanks very much, and then you get a little more educated and realize that actually you've got a terribly long way to go still, and then you get even better and realize that you're never going to get as good as the sound you hear in your head, or even as good as your heroes, because they keep moving in the music at roughly the same rate as you do. It probably explains why so many great players are also quite off-hand and modest about their playing.
If a player is not self-deprecatory or at least modest about their abilities, it usually comes to light that they're not particularly well-educated in the music, because players who *are* generally know that there's no end to the learning ever. (Either that, or they're just not very nice people. Heh.)
That's not to say that you can't be both modest about your abilities and self-confident in those abilities as well.
Since there's usually no such thing as a "better" player at those rarified heights of players we all consider our heroes -- just "different" -- taking care to be modest or at the very least it's more extroverted cousin, self-deprecation, keeps one from looking a complete arse, you know?
It helps to remember that "self-deprecation" and "modesty" are very different things. You can be self-deprecatory without being the least bit modest (and vice-versa), and you can be self-deprecatory and still be quite confident in your own abilities.
Zina
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Self -Deprecation
I've also noticed that the really fine players are quite in tune to their shortcomings--they know precisely what aspects of their playing they still need to work on (even tho the rest of us might hear them as "perfect"). Of course, most of them can articulate these problem areas pretty well, having focused on them. And that might sound like self-deprecation or false modesty, but it's actually just a sharp sense of reality. In workshops, I've seen top players demonstrate a technique, only to repeat it several times until they get it "right." They're aware of when their playing is "on" and when it's not.
and to be able to talk about it in specific terms. Most people do a better job of thinking about something if they can put a label or name to it. So instead of saying, "I sound awful," I get more mileage out of saying, "My tone is scratchy and thin. I want to make it rounder and warm." Some of this naturally carries over into more general conversations, especially here online where we don't have the benefit of hearing each other play.
As a student of the music, I aspire to that same awareness. I think it's important to critique yourself (but not when in the throes of playing in public--that's the time for relaxing and enjoying whatever noise comes out
I like poet Robert Frost's response to an overly enthusiastic and glowing introduction for a reading he was to give one night. After the applause died away, he said, "Remember, it's only poetry."
And don't forget the rich session tradition of insulting your neighbors. That's half the crack, right? And if you can't insult yourself, what fun would that be?
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Self -Deprecation
Will, you are right on. Mostly I am saying - it doesn't sound like music - it will never sound like music what the heck am I doing...however, to put a specific on it - like a thin tone - that is something that can be addressed - and focused on and *fixed* ; ) it makes the problems less of sweeping generalization and more of a realistic constructive criticism
now let me see...thin tone, lacks rhythm, sloppy bowing, lousy intonation...hmmm...
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by macmuffins
Re: Self -Deprecation
> now let me see...thin tone, lacks rhythm, sloppy bowing, lousy intonation...hmmm...
oh jeez! don't tell me you overheard my fiddle teacher talking to me last tuesday
sarah
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by sarahc
Re: Self -Deprecation
This is a real sticky molasses issue. The thing I have trouble understanding is the fairly good
players who are not only self-deprecating, but who refuse to even play in public. Yet, there is a
whole host of people who are not as good who play out regularly, and even give lessons.
This problem is complicated by the fact that there are not many pipers in Colorado, so anyone
who tries to play them out gets attention, even the novices or intermediate players.
I'm thinking of someone who plays flute really well, and knows lots of tunes, but has been playing
the pipes only about as long as I have - about one and a half years. But, he's much better than I
am. Since his standards are much higher than mine, I'm out there trying to join in sessions and
get some exposure to playing with others and learning tunes. He's not out playing the pipes. He's
playing flute, and only a few know he's learning pipes. So, when I play, I think it's important
to recognize there are better players than myself who don't feel ready to go public with their
playing yet.
I find that since I'm interested in playing in public, I have to deal with public relations. People
ask me all the time how long I've been playing - or they want to know what I think about playing
the pipes in general. I feel I have to tell them that I am somewhere in the middle of the spectrum
of pipers who have some skills, but don't know as many tunes as others who have been doing this all
there lives. I don't think it's being honest to be completely self-deprecating, because better players
than I will tell the same people that they feel that they "suck." Well, they don't, really. I don't either,
but I'm not as good as some who will tell you they do "stink."
Meanwhile there are a few rock bands out there that are so rotten that they can't event get through
a sold-out concert without having to play the same lame song twice. They are raking in the
money. These guys know that they are hot, and their crowd agrees. What shall we do?
We work hard learning to play this stuff, and we have high musical standards that we don't feel
we meet. Well, okay, we understand that part. The problem is other people don't have the
same standards as we do, and there isn't an easy way to explain that to them. There standard
may be higher or lower, and we will never really know. Telling them, "I stink at this." won't do
anybody any favors. They may have heard this music for the first time thinking it was wonderful,
or they may know the music very well, and think you are coming along pretty well. They can
always decide for themselves whether or not they think you truly stink.
So my approach is to give people a quick summary of where I am. I have been learning this for
about a year and a half, and there are some really good players who I listen to. If the inquisitive
listener is still interested, I'll tell them about some recordings to get. I'll never be
self-deprecating, though. I'll also make sure I don't ask for too much money. Will, you have the right
idea on how to do self-criticism. If someone goes overboard in praise or criticism, for that matter,
then "It's only music," along with a little laughter is good. If someone gives a little praise, a
nice "thank you," will do.
Self deprecation is somehow tied with a kind of pride that I don't want any part of. When It comes
down to it, I'm playing for God and for myself most of all. Quoting a great sailor and hornpipe
player, "I yam what I yam."
On the other hand, hearing a really good, top notch player make a self deprecating pun can be a great
barell of laughs. This only works for me if before I start laughing, my gut just wants to burst out,
"bull$#1^!" In response to hearing this from one of the greats.
-Dirk (an aspiring piper.)
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by dirk
Whoops, I didn't realize how much I typed - got carries away there. It's an emotional
-Dirk
issue for me.
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by dirk
Re: Self -Deprecation
Dirk's comments reminded me of a gig we did once where some people came up afterwards full of compliments and one guy asked me if we had any CDs. And I said yes, but they're all by other bands....
I've also been told that the difference in our local group's musicianship and the touring ITM bands' is 10 percent talent and 90 percent audacity. Personally, I'd put it at more like 30/70, and I'm the first to admit that I don't WANT to be that audacious. I'm happiest when playing in a low-key session among friends, where audacity has no role. I honestly have no musical ambition beyond that, and the fact that ITM honors that approach is part of what attracted me to the music in the first place. Remember that there are lots of great musicians who rarely leave their living rooms. Whether you choose to play at the local pub on Saturdays or stay home and annoy the cat, either is an honorable expression of the music.
Will (an unaspiring fiddler)
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: It's Only Music...
Yeah? How many people (and not just musicians) would be willing to live the rest of their lives without ever hearing it again?
As for self-deprecation, many of us are measuring ourselves against top-notch professionals and recording artists. If you don't have 8 hours a day to do nothing but play, it's going to be hard to catch up to them! I figger, if people danced (or at least tapped their feet) while I was playing and applaud afterwards, I'm doing OK. If not, I can always kill them...
JeffK
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by JeffK627
Re: Self -Deprecation
Remember: failure teaches us to appreciate success!
I like JeffKs idea of killing unapreciative audiances aswell, heheheheehhehehehehhehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
heheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheeeheeeheeeharahharhar
harharajarhar......sorry.....hehe!!!!
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by Wackadack
Re: Self -Deprecation
JeffK, I'm typing this in here with a big grin, hoping against hope you'll take this with all the lightheartedness and fun and musical commiseration I intend as I send it....but if those people *weren't* dancing (or at least tapping their feet) while you were playing, then killing them would be redundant, seeing as how they've already been well tortured.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist. *grin*
Reminds me of the first time anyone ever danced to my fiddle playing. I had just come from a lesson and was waiting in a park to go to a movie in the theater across the street. With 20 minutes to kill, I uncased the fiddle and stumbled through a string of jigs. Along came a woman, also waiting for the movie, and she started step dancing lightly off to one side. I was so startled that I stopped playing and asked, "What are you doing?!"
Duh.....but it had not occurred to me before then that *my* music might be danceable.
On your other point JeffK, I completely agree. Yes, yes, "life without music would be a mistake," but so would life without ice cream, sandy beaches, 30-inch powder days, kite flying, good stories, meteor showers, well-made hand tools, and comfortable socks. As a musician, it's my obligation to make each note seem like the most important thing in the world when I'm playing it. But part of the power of doing that comes in the surprise people feel in being moved by a plain and simple melody played with passion.
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Self -Deprecation
Regarding "It's only music." Well, yes the whole of the body of music is important to our lives,
and we miss it most when nobody is allowed to play it, and someone's hut gets burned. But a
single performance is not a matter of life and death or a matter of survival. So why do we
get so nervous, and feel the real flight-or-fight response before performing it, or when we mess up
on stage? Likewise, criticism or praise may create the same emotions. Maybe pride for the
music itself is pushed away by the pride for the musician.
Sure, I'd fight for my right to hear and play the music, but let's not get to thinking that our mistakes
are going to cause any real suffering. The audience is always free to leave the pub, and the pub
owner can always cancel the session. After they leave the pub with their grief about the band, they'll
miss the wise cracks that the fiddler makes to the flute player who caused the misery. They could
have had a great laugh at the band's expense, but no, they decided that their ivory tower of perfect music
appreciation was compromised. Bad music has ruined their night. They better go to the other pub with
the loud blues band so they can rupture their eardrums instead.
Self deprecation isn't too cool, but making fun of the other players in the session? Now that's
good Crack! The first time I went to our local session, I was feeling shy, and Zina suggested
that she could throw a rug over me to quiet the loud pipes. After a good laugh it was much easier
for me after that.
As far as unappreciative audiences go... Why not sing a good song about them that pokes
fun at them? Maybe they'll lighten up. Maybe you will be successful in slipping out the door
before the bar fight, even.
-Dirk ( now I'm a perspiring piper)
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by dirk
Re: Self -Deprecation
That assumes that anyone besides the musicians are listening to the singer, Dirk. *grin*
I have to say that I don't agree with you about self-deprecation, Dirk. It all has to do with knowing your limitations, as Will and others mention above, and being willing to joke about them, and being honest with yourself about what you can and can't do yet. Perhaps we have different definitions of self-deprecation...
Will, what about power tools? Would any guy's life be totally complete without at least one really good power tool? (We have this great air compressor that I bought when we put in a wood floor...now that's MY power tool. Heh.) Not any of the guys I've ever met!
Zina
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Self -Deprecation
I live on an interesting block. The neighbors watch me dig a 4-foot deep trench 30 feet to lay electrical service out to the garage I built (used a real framing hammer, not an air-fed nail gun, thank you), and they tease me for digging the trench with a shovel, rock bar, and pulaski (like a pick axe). Their other neighbor, to the north, once used a backhoe to shovel snow off his sidewalk. We are at opposite ends of the tool spectrum. We all get along just fine.
I worked wilderness trail crew for four years--no power tools allowed.
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Self -Deprecation
Maybe we are talking about different levels of self-deprecation here, Zina. I'm talking about good musicians who say they are not good enough to play in public or who really go overboard in
telling us how awful they are, when they know they are better than many who are playing in sessions. In that case, self deprecation is more than self depreciating for them. It's discouraging to us novices as well.
Honesty about ones limitations is fine, in my opinion. That's different about waxing poetic about how unacceptable
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by dirk
Speaking of power tools, anyone know of a good power tool for stapling wire fence to a cedar fence post? Zina thinks there is such a thing. I always used a small sledge, but I'm behind the times.
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by dirk
Re: Self -Deprecation
Sheesh, 30 feet and 4 deep by hand? I feel like hauling off and starting a new thread titled :
What hasn't Will done?
# Posted on May 6th 2002 by Crusty
Re: Self -Deprecation
Which is exactly why I'll continue to be self-deprecating about my fiddling...*grin*
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Self -Deprecation
hmm - I'd say that there is no way I'd ever tape myself playing again - its devastating...I'd also say - as was suggested before, that people who we all think are really great players - who dont feel that way themselves are proabably aiming higher. And that is fine - they probably dont think they are any good at all. Ive a friend who is a lovely player - really, awesome - if someone pays him a compliment he gets defensive & wonders what they want from him....but I understand 100% - I dont think I've ever been satisfied with my playing - and maybe I never will - but thats what makes me more determined. How boring if everyone in the world thought that they were good - where would the challenge be in that? Hey - how did we get onto the subject of tools?
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by bb
Tools of the Trade
Yer a hippie at heart, Will. You really should go get that tattoo in the middle of your forehead now. *snicker* We got onto tools by way of Will, of course, bb. It's always Will's fault.
When Will dies, engraved upon his heart they'll find an adze, I guess. Heh.
How LONG did it take you to dig that trench, Harmon?
Dirk, I keep telling you a visit to Home Depot will open your eyes -- just look in the power tools for the air assisted stuff. If you're nice to me, I'll let you borrow my air compressor.
ANYway, bb, I don't care about listening to myself play -- I can't be devastated by it, because I already consider myself to be not very good. I think my standards that I'm looking for my playing to meet are probably way too high for me to ever reach, but I also think that I may get close some day (if I ever start practising regularly). Sure, our little group of players sometimes sounds just great, for us, but I also always want us to get better than that.
So, I'll continue to self-deprecate until I get so good I can merely be modest.
Zina
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Self -Deprecation
I figure that taping myself occasionally is the only way I'll get a relatively objective view of my playing! . It was devastating in the beginning but I just kept doing it anyway. I taped myself the other day after not doing so for a year and I couldn't bring myself to listen to the tape for a day or two. My husband said, "If you don't think you've improved just listen to that tape" so finally I did. And he was right.
So, I'm further along than some and will probably not ever reach the skill level of others, so what? As long as I see improvement over time, content. Soon, I hope to be able to start playing "from the heart" and not think so much about the mechanical aspects while I'm playing!
Will, thanks for adding a new word to my tool vocabulary....Pulaski! Can't wait to see my Mom's face when I holler "hey, mom, where d'ya keep the Pulaski?" next time I try to plant something in our slate-and-rock-laden property!
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Self -Deprecation, recording and wild fires
Even in this age of perfect digital recording, we shouldn't forget the fact that music is an event, something you do because you like it. If it makes you feel good, that's more important than being perfect. If it makes someone else feel good, then that's what it's all about.
I have an artesanal CD, and i'm working on my second one. That first CD was recorded almost 10 years ago. I know pretty much all the mistakes that are in there, all the notes that are not in tune, etc. So, not perfect by any stretch, not good enough to be released by a commercial label. However, it's a nice thing to listen to, and i still sell a few, here and there. Somehow, nobody complains about the wrong notes.
Another thing, if you're recording yourself at home with a cheap cassete recorder, remember that the quality of the sound is not going to be true to reality. Use the recording to check your phrasing and intonation, not to worry about the sound quality.
Here's what a pulaski looks like, BTW. It was invented by Edward Pulaski, a pioneer in wildfire containment in the US. It's a small multi-purpose tool that firefighters carry into the jungle.
http://store1.yimg.com/I/cspoutdoors_1643_12250090
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by glauber
Re: Self -Deprecation
Good points, Glauber. That's pretty much what I use the recording for, plus ideas on where an ornament might sound good. Sometimes we get out the mics and MD recorder for a more realistic take, or if Kevin wants to add a guitar backing or something. Just messing about.
I don't worry so much about being perfect anymore, not after seeing folks like Tommy Peoples and Martin Hayes live. I want to get the "Hayes eye-roll" perfected so I can do it when I mess up, too! That cracked me up the first time I saw him. And poor Tommy was sooooo nervous at first. Heh, I'm down right calm when I'm playing in public, compared to him. This nervousness and self depreciation seems to run from top to bottom in the musicians universe!
So, I already have a Pulaski and didn't even know it! And now I have the history, too. Speaking of wildfires, I also have a MacLeod which is useful for raking and smoothing gravel as well raking over hotspots. BTW, power tools are scary. Things happen waaay to fast, bad as well as good. No thanks! I don't even like staple guns
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Self -Deprecation
Oh, I love power tools! I tried using a regular stapler the first time I put in a hardwood floor. Even my husband had a tough time putting a staple all the way through. Then I used the air assisted one. My god!, I thought. No *wonder* men love power tools! Heh. I felt so, so, macho and competent and powerful and all that. One strong "bap" with the mallet, and that staple was down in the floorboard with nary a squeak, just a loud bang. Of course, the first time the air compressor turned itself back on to regain pressure, I just about jumped out of my skin. *grin*
Chris, put a video up online of you doing the Hayes eye-roll. I can hardly wait to see it.
Zina
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Self -Deprecation
Well, the tool thread really came from Zina--based on my earlier post, we could as well be talking about our favorite beaches around the world, or socks.
I dug the trench in two days. Probably could have done it faster, but I had to tunnel around and under a bunch of big roots from our 80-foot blue spruce (didn't want to risk hurting this old tree by cutting a root on my way to the garage).
A pulaski is a wonderful tool--you can build miles of trail, dig out stumps, put out a fire, chop through downfall, even fell, buck, and split firewood with one.
Fiddler Frank Ferrell once had to follow Martin Hayes at a concert. Martin pulled out all the stops with his multiple triplet, arpeggiated, layered settings of some fast reels. When Frank came on stage, he was waving a white flag of surrender tied to his fiddle bow....
It's also good to hear about the pro's making mistakes (I didn't know that Hayes ever did anything worth rolling his eyes over). I've seen a top whistle player stop in mid stream on a solo in front of 500 people, laugh, and cheerfully carry on. And Johnny Cunningham once stopped dead in the middle of a reel. He looked at the audience and said, "Oops. Well that's never happened before." When he got to the end of the set, he explained that it suddenly felt like the bow was going in the "wrong" direction. "It's humbling," he said with a grin, "when you've got a 50/50 chance and you get it wrong."
I asked Kevin Burke once how he got the "pop" into his polkas, and when he tried to show me, the pop wasn't there. Like any good craftsman, he blamed his tools..."Da fiddle isn't workin' properly today," he said.
It helps, doesn't it, to know that even the greats struggle with inconsistency and lapses, and subsequent crises of confidence? I think the trick to dealing with all this is to not make too big a deal out of it, to shrug it off with a smile or a joke and move on. And that's what a little self-deprecating humor is all about. It's one way to remind others--and ourselves--that perfection isn't important.
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Self -Deprecation
P.S. I don't like to tape myself either. It limits my range of motion and the next day it really hurts taking all that duct tape off, especially on the hairy parts....
*snort*
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Self -Deprecation
Oh argh. *snicker*
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Self -Deprecation
Dirk, what you want is called a Crown Stapler, and you'll need a compressor to go with it. You can probably get the whole deal for around $300. Sounds like a lot, but the compressor has many other uses - like inflating bagpipes!
Harking back a ways in the thread, I like torturing my audiences. I also like Fava beans and a nice Chianti *slurp*
JeffK
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by JeffK627
Re: Self -Deprecation
Oh, man, great stories Will! A white flag *snort*! Usually Hayes does the eye roll when he lands on the e-string wrong and gets the dog whistle sound. Why I use wound "e" strings reason #1. The bow "going in the wrong direction" thing I'm trying to learn to just power through on, but most times I stop too! And Kevin's reasoning is an beautiful thing. I shall use it, too! Hey Will, but duct tape saves on Nair! Probably cheaper! Heh.
It would have to be a video, cuz a photo would make me look like I was about to pass out *snicker*. There she goes....clunk. And Zina, the "first" time you put in a hardwood floor??? Ok, we got, Irish dance teacher, Irish fiddler, self-described computer geek, Irish stepdance dress maker, and hardwood floor installer. Why in the world would anyone think you were an over-achiever? I'm just going to go to bed and pull the covers over my head now...*grin*
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Self -Deprecation
That this thread is so popular is proof that we are all hard on ourselves. As a schoitrad baby, I am regularly reguired to submit a
recording of myself for evaluation by a world class player. This is very
humbling but helpful. My stated goal is to get good enough by the time I'm 80 for people to comment, "Man he must have been wonderful when he was in his prime." The truth will be that when I'm 80 I'll be the best I've ever been!
Joe
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by Carrmuse
read "scoiltrad" sorry
Joe
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: Self -Deprecation
Ah...socks...I have a cat that steals my socks every morning. I toss them on the bed - and before I can turn around - bam...they are gone to some hidey hole... I am fortunate that they show up around my shoes later when I am ready to head out...
Same little clever animal tears around the house while I am playing - stops to bite my leg as me speeds through the living room...ouch...yup - no false pride about my music -there is not strutting around with a 10 pounds of fur attached to you leg... on another note (no pun intended) it's nice to know Mr. Burke and I do have something in common...by some coincidence my fiddle isn't working today either.... ; )
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by macmuffins
Re: Self -Deprecation
I´m afraid I am a too bad craftsman to use a Pulaski - remember with pain what I did to my left foot with the axe when I made firewood the last time. And my english is too bad too to use too and to properly .... at least I´m too german to get my thinking and talking from square to easy. But I don´t take my fiddle case to a Pub to leave the fiddle inside. I play at least one or two tunes ... no matter how poor my playing might be compared to the other musicians. And back home I try to weave my bow into the strings, whenever I find the time for it.....self-deprication is ok as long as it doesn´t keeps us away from having fun and keep going. Volker
# Posted on May 7th 2002 by crannog
Re: Self -Deprecation
Well said Volker. So if we ever convene a session of people from The Session, we will know you by your limp?
And your english is far better than my german.... About the only thing I can remember from highschool german class is "Ich kann meine gummischuhe nicht gefinden."
We seem to be circling toward a sense that self-deprecation is fine as long as it's part of the crack and fun, rather than a serious attempt to put oneself down, and that it's also a convenient way to deflect a compliment or a crowd of ITM groupies and put the focus back on the music itself (where it belongs).
# Posted on May 8th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Self -Deprecation
... the limp is very faint - it is affecting slowly played tunes in a remarkable way (what comes from walking around while practising).
Your only chance to know me will be the leaking wellington, but that depends on the weather ... as I already told Zina, I wish(&know) a lot of people from TheSession will meet in the same pub somewhere in the west of Ireland by coincidence some day and have a session....you will know me then! ;o) Volker
# Posted on May 8th 2002 by crannog
Re: Self -Deprecation
Gosh, have a few busy days when you can't give much time to 'The Session' and the threads have run away again. Recon Will is right. Its the music that's important - that's why I play ITM, anyway - simply have to (like breathing, eating, sleeping and writing). I like live sessions and sometimes have a really great time at them, but this internet session takes things to a depth that I've never encountered live. Recon its egos that get in the way - for some musos a little self deprecation could go a long way. Maybe if they didn't think so highly of themselves, they might enjoy sharing tunes instead of being out to dominate other musos.
# Posted on May 8th 2002 by Jill
I mean like in the virtual session here, AS A GOOD EXAMPLE
# Posted on May 8th 2002 by Jill
Re: Self -Deprecation
Have just come back from the feis in Ullapool.Had a great time.I am by no means a good fiddler.I only started learning about 2 years ago.The feis was great,I learnt quite a lot and had a lot of encouragement from the tutors.I made loads of mistakes and will continue to do so but as i'm going along I'm also learning.
I have come across musicians who give you the cold shoulder but to be honest this just makes me even more determined to play well.
I love the music and even though I'm not that good i'm going to keep at it.
Amanda
# Posted on May 8th 2002 by morrigan
Re: Self -Deprecation
Good for you, Amanda! You'll find that really top-notch players are for the most part usually very helpful to beginners -- and those who are snooty to beginners tend to be only second rate.
A nice thought when you get snooted, yeah? Heh.
Anyway, keep at it for sure. It's the only way to really get any better, no matter what other shortcuts seem to look good.
Zina
# Posted on May 9th 2002 by Zina Lee