My recent visits to Ireland have been brief, and erm...not-so-recent, and in parts of the country where the "concretisation" of the Emerald Isle were not in great evidence.
Please tell me this is an exageration of the truth.
I spent six months in Ireland in 2002... I think the Guardian article was quite harshly worded but I can't say I wasn't disgusted by the number of tasteless strip malls, golf courses, and terribly ugly tract housing that all looks brand new...
There are still beautiful places (right now I've got Fanore on my mind, a beautiful coastal town on the coast of Clare) that have yet to be outwardly sullied... I had a general feeling that the whole Island was being turned into a big bloody theme park and, as an avid hiker and appreciator of nature, I was occasionally hard-pressed to leave the concrete behind...
Rab ,
How long is it since you were over here.The Dublin skyline is awash with tower cranes.Hotels are springing up in most of the tourist towns.There is a major overhaul of most main roads.(not a bad thing).Apart from the rape and pillage of historical sites such as The Hill of Tara .
Its a pity most of the politicans are not being used as dry filling for all this building as they are the most corrupt shower of wasters ever.So there is a lot of truth in the article.
The story in the Guardian is mostly crap and this would not be the first time a reporter of the Guardian wrote crap about the the Republic. Yes, Ireland has motorways ( about 5) mostly around Dublin. Construction can be found in Ireland as can a very successful ecomnony, stable government voted in by the people who live here.
Oh come on! Ive never seen a country more hell bent in destroying its historic buildings.
I really dont think that people spend loads of tourist dollars to go and see some ole pebble dash housing estate.(which there are many)
Maybe its just me - but I went to Paris, Vienna, Prague etc to see the beautiful old buildings and be surrounded by historic things. In Ireland tho you do have loads of historic buildings nobody gives a damn. And the people who do care, get branded as tree hugging crustys.
They knock down a beautiful fully restored manor house in Galway and nobody bats an eyelid, if you tried that here in Australia you'd cop an ear full.
And 'stable government voted in by the people??? We just had an election here and it was very close -so probably half the country didnt vote for our current government. So that statement holds no water.
Unfortunately, I find too much reality in the article, and by that, I mean that the politicos and road-builders are in the power seat.
What do they care for scenery or culture?
The lorry driver isn’t interested in scenery, he wants to get to his destination ASAP
and as cheaply as possible.
Here in West Virginia we face the same problems: defacing the land with strip mining
and timber clearing, and road builders who have no regard for cultural imperatives or aesthetic appeal.
They don’t even know that they are ruining the heritage for our children, all in the name of economy. That would require a more liberal education. And who can afford that in these modern times?
Yes it is true, but that shouldn't stop you from visiting the last elements of a great culture before it disappears. There is still plenty to see and absorb. The roots there are very deep.
There is some truth in the picture painted, Ireland is no longer the picture postcard that it once was, people are gripped by consumerism and "development" is used to justify lots of horrendous things. I remember a time when Ireland was still green, people has less things but more spirit and the craic was mighty (anytime pre 1990) - the problem was that I, like many of my friends and former classmates lived in London because we couldn't get a job here. Some things HAVE changed for the better!
That comment about beggars on horses hits the nail on the head.And it's not just the politicians,they have the backing of the people by and large.People want to build huge houses,they want to fill the roads with cars & from my experience everytime i go home they dont care at all about pollution.
I stayed in Claregalway a couple of years back and could not believe the amount of "McMansions" springing up all over that beautiful countryside.It didnt exactly inspire me to write any haunting slow airs...
Meanwhile in my homeplace of Cork,i am told that planning permission is very difficult to get, so maybe it's a local thing.There doesnt seem to be too much going up around my village.But the cities are diabolical.You really have to go away & then come back to see how bad it is.
The Irish need to cop themselves on big time before it's too late.
As a "foreigner" :~} who brought this topic up, I hope it's ok for me to chip in. It looks like this one, even though not about the music directly, has aroused some passions - and quite rightly too. Many people are on this site who've never been to Ireland, or haven't been for several years, yet they have this idyllic picture of jolly rural folk on donkeys up in the mountains etc, so they need to know the present reality. For example, I've heard some American friends who want to "give it all up" in the States and move to Ireland. Yes, I was in the North 2 years ago and we took a day trip over to Donegal - so that's my most recent trip to the Republic! Prior to that I'd been over several times for weeks at a time throughout the 1990s. So I'm sure it has changed enormously since then.
I get the feeling that the Guardian article is highlighting the worst excesses and painting a bleaker picture than is the reality. But going from what friends over there have been saying, Dublin is changing dramatically, and in the country people can't afford to buy property because rich cityfolk are putting up the prices by buying holiday homes, everyone is chasing every buck that's going neighbours stabbing each other in the back to buy land, and so on. These are the tales I hear, so I'm only relaying them on. The Guardian article appears to substantiate those stories. Don't get me wrong - I don't want to knock Ireland or the Irish - but it seems things have gone on without any regulation or intervention by the state.
Well the state intervenes alright - not just in the right way.
The problems you talk about Rab,that are afflicting Ireland right now are pretty much the same for any rich western country.It's just that in Ireland,as in the US, if the government feels it's on to a populist thing,it goes out of it's way to crush any voices of dissent no matter how reasonable.And that should always ring alarm bells.
Ireland's changed since the seventies when the government considered setting up a nuclear power station in Carnsore Point and it only took an army of hippies and Christy Moore's guitar to send the politician's scurrying with their plans.A bit more of that spirit is needed now.
Not a particularly new trend - remember the Central Bank vs. the Viking settlement at Wood Quay in 1977? I expect there's just more money about now to do this on a grander scale.
Of course, there's not many role models about that show you the "sustainable" road to prosperity. Not an excuse, just a sad comment on human nature.
What the Dubliners are doing to the West Coast sucks... Sorry about the language. Some would choose in their own cause, as and excuse for it all - 'progress'? From a distance it looks like seagull shight.
We'd been away from The Dingle for a long time, returning a few years back. They used to complain about Germans buying up summer homes out on the tip, but now it is mostly Irish, quick and nasty bungalows, and like everyplace else so affected by this 'cancer', it is pricing the locals out of the market. Mostly it is 'city-folk', from Dublin and Cork for example, 'reclaiming their roots' - Bullshit! - with 'more money than sense' is the term isn't it? We saw a lot of old properties rotting into the ground. Like the French, they want a 'new' bungalow, and those are popping up all over the place, as well as caravans... I'd never known the Dingle to have traffic jams, well, it does now...both sides...
Speaking purely as a tourist, when I visited the west coast two years ago I was amazed at the development all along the west coast from doolin to donegal and the cliffs of moher to the mullet. Anywhere that was flat enough and accessible had had a bungalow built on it. Now of course it is completely understandable that everyone wants to have a nice holiday home for not much money with a big picture window looking out on a nice unspoilt beach / headland. But that surely is the point of having local government and planning rules to take the difficult decisions or at least ensure that development is sensitive to the environment (both from an aesthetic and ecological perspective). It need not cost a lot more or deny locals what they want but it still should be controlled - else they will surely kill the golden goose of tourism dollars (and pounds and euro and yen etc etc)
Not to hijack Danny's thread, but to give it some ITM relevance (and thereby, maybe save it...)
What's the impact of unbridled development on the music in Ireland? I believe the keepers of the flame have traditionally lived in parts of the country untouched by major development. Is the music as found in its natural environment threatened by yuppiedom?
Carrickmines "Castle" was nothing more than a row of stones before the National Roads Authority paid to have it excavated. All of a sudden, every hippy in Europe thinks they found the Taj Mahal.
Now we will have a road which is proposed and will pass close ( about 1.5Km )to the Hill of Tara, and we are accused of rape and pillage. Sorry if we dont have pigs in the parlour and "comely maidens dancing at the crossroads" anymore like the tourist expects, but like the music, we have to grow, and if some twit in the Guardian does'nt approve, well tough.
Maybe just give up being so negative Cunnla. You can't expect to go away and have everythng look the same when you get back. Believe it or not, people in Clare or Donegal have every right to have a decent road network, and modern housing. Who knows....... next the kids will have playstations!. Too bad if it spoils the perfect picture, this group of beggars are on a roll. Long may it last.
This comely maidens at the crossroads routine is just a cop out.The issue is about sustainable development.An issue which faces any modern industrialised state.It is about development that meets the needs and aspirations of local communities but doesnt destroy the environment which they and future generations depend on.Every society should take this responsibility seriously and it's a sad fact that few do.And Ireland?...Well,we cant even face up to the issue without bringing out these old ghosts about comely maidens and intefering "strangers" etc..
To respond to grego's interesting question,I dont think any of this development will have a negative effect on the music.ITM has flourished all over the world and in some of the most built-up over-crowded areas.There is no reason to think that that shouldn't continue.However a society that chooses to ignore it's own culture in favour of a more homogenized mass-culture is sure to be a poorer one.
Though I haven't been to Ireland, it sounds like they are following an American train of thought. Chase the almighty dollar. Its understandable that the Irish want "decent road network, and modern housing", but there are other ways of going about this. If Ireland would just look around at the U.S. and Europe, they would notice what a mad flurry of highways and suburbs does to the quality of life. I live in Southern California, which is disgustingly choked by highways, cul-de-sacs, and malls (The Block, South Coast, Laguna Hills, plus the countless shopping centers). If the Irish want this, they should live here for a while and see how GRAND it is. "Progress", as some people call it, is not all its cracked up to be.
How many hospatal beds did the spire cost? A lot less than the bush/blair war. Ok, so we need to build houses to live in, then roads to get to the houses.Oh we have also running water and electic too! Mobile phone masts and factories can be seen too. Alot of our so called historic buildings were not build by the Irish, so not a lot of love lost there. The pogress seen in Ireland today was not possible before, we didn't have the money. Visitors are welcome to Ireland on Holidays. Buy buying property in Ireland by nons is what made the could that little bit costly. So what, for to long we sold if far to cheaply. As for the Guardian, i will say again, I has a strong history in being biased towards Ireland.
It surprises me that some people feel it's ok to help to preserve Ireland's musical heritage, but not Ireland's architectural and archeological heritage. Here's a link to stuff about Tara:
I recived this email from Aidan, originally from Neillidh Mulligan via Josephine Keegan:
Dear Friends,
I have just read and signed the online petition:
"Protect Tara"
hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition
service, at:
I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you might
agree, too. If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and
consider
signing yourself.
Well, here's the website of the author of the Guardian article. http://www.marklynas.org/
Judge for yourself, but it seems to me he's a committed environmentalist author and journalist, and slagging off Ireland is certainly not his mission in life.
Having just returned from a visit to Ireland can only add that Ireland seems to be colliding with the modern world right now. After being a country that people were leaving to find prosperity elsewhere for so long, it now is the fastest developing economy in Europe, and was voted the European country with the highest quality of life by an International economy magazine. Because of the recent economic upturn there is no infrastructure in place to control development. Even the archeologists are arguing about the history of Ireland to support their particular views on development.
The "Spike" in Dublin was a shock for me to discover. I couldn't find one person who thought it was a good idea -- seems to me that most folks see it as a waste of money. If I were to draw a political cartoon about it I would do a cut-away of the earth and have it as a giant hypodermic needle with Uncle Sam administering US greedy corporate ideals and values into Ireland.
I think I'd take exception to that cartoon, Jack -- the idea of naive Ireland exploited by the sophisticated US. A better image might be the giant middle finger of the Celtic Tiger raised to rest of the world -- if the middle finger actually meant anything in Ireland.
Larsheen, please don't accuse me of being anti British you couldn't be less accurate. Many nationalities have and still build on Irish soil. Yes Britain was responsible for the famine of 1845-47, in much the same way African Governments are resposible today. Are you sure your Irish? Is this Rev Dr Ians Ireland your from?
Wait a minute, compaq, when you say "*Britain* was responsible for the famine" that same Britain as you call it was also responsible for the Clearances of the Scottish Highlands of crofting communities, to make way for more cash-friendly sheep farms, putting children down mines in England and Wales and shipping people off to (the then) inhospitable Australia (granted that one has made a comeback!) There's no way I feel any pang of guilt about being British (although I'd prefer to be thought of as Scots) because my ancestors were both Clearances and emigré Irish (the names Byrne and Lennon crop up in my grandparents).
It is only natural that the Celtic Tiger topic would generate so much heat on this thread, given the madness that has prevailed in Ireland over the past ten years or so. Well, here’s some more. Samuel Beckett once said that the Irish were fu**ed by the Brits and the priests and he was right about that. Nowadays there’s a different shower of fu**ers at it – our own gombeen capitalists with their hireling “politicians” and slave-driving bosses. The rest of us, the wage slaves, are required to work harder than ever to “create the wealth” so that it can be creamed off by the aforementioned shower of fu**ers. Plus ca change.
Phonsie - well, if you're gonna just keep on blaming The Brits for everything no wonder. Larsheen and Cunnla - youse said "I give up" when you got answers that didn't fit your expectations. My advice is the opposite - don't give up. Keep on explaining what you know the truth is, for every 100 people that you explain to, maybe 1 or 2 will listen. And then some other people might listen to them.
i think the article was pretty true for the most part, my cousins farm was cut in ahlf by one of those highways out of dublin, shit happens and things are always changing what an you do. "lifes a bitch"
Rab, I haven't blamed the Brits for everything. Clearly I haven't blamed Britain for the Celtic Tiger madness and I have also apportioned blame to the (Irish) priests. Please don't misrepresent my position. It is a historical fact that Ireland was ruled by the English for almost 800 years and therefore England was mainly responsible for what happened in Ireland, as compaq said. I think you need to acknowledge this. And if you studied, for example, the racist rantings of Giraldus Cambrensis, an apologist for the Norman Invasion of Ireland, or the subsequent express English policy of extirpating the Irish language, customs, traditions etc I think you would have a more objective view of the effects of English rule in Ireland. I am an egalitarian anti-imperialist. I am not Anglo-phobic, though I do think a formal acknowledgment and apology (if not indeed redress) is due for past wrongs done to Ireland by Britain. Is that unreasonable?
That's OK, Rab, we're only continuing the long and noble tradition of misunderstanding between the two islands. Regarding the apology, you'd never know. On his first visit to the erstwhile Emerald Isle a few years ago Prince Charles did make a statement tantamount to such an apology. And as for the reparations, by means of unnumerable scandalously expensive tribunals into corruption over the past few years in Ireland, we've built up a merry army of well padded lawyers who would be up for that kind of legal Armageddon. So maybe that wouldn't be a good idea after all.
If the knobs in the North ever got around to settling things I'm sure she would make a visit to Belfest and Dublin as a sign of healing. She would give a speech and it could possible have repentent words in it for past blunders by her governments but compo? forget it.
Your comments about giving up Rab are dead right.So here i am wading into the bloody waters of this thread again with my sword.
I think the whole British (or should i say English) imperialist thing has great importance to the current situation in Ireland.It's not a bad thing to remember or acknowledge the various atrocities.But we have to take responsibilities for our own mess as well.Do we really want to be still hanging on to the coat-tails of the empire while simultaneously kicking at it's heels?
Also the policies that were behind many of the atrocities in Ireland were to do with capitalist expansion.Money and Power took precedence without thought or care of those whose lives they affected.Sound familiar....??
Can we at least all be clear on what is English and what is British as they seem to be used interchangeably through most of this thread.
Without wanting to be too controversial, the "English" although undoubtedly to blame for much were not soley responsible for ruling the British isles over the last 800 years, they were helped out by the Tudors - remember them? they were Welsh - and the Stuarts, who were Scottish, not forgetting the Hanoverians who were German (but then they had less actual power). Then there was also the union of Scotland and England and Wales in 1707, creating the big happy family that we still have today.
The original conquest of Ireland by "England" was actually undertaken by the Normans - who were also uninvited guests in England too following the 1066 invasion.
Actually, Nick and Cunnla, I shouldn't be trying to get the Scots off the hook too much. Before the Union of Parliaments in 1707 they tried a bit of imperialism themselves - it was called the Darien Expedition to the Darien Gap in Panama in 1698, I think it was. It ended in disaster and many of the 1000's who went perished with malaria starvation etc. It near enough broke the Scottish economy, and so they were near enough forced into a union with their southern neighbours - So that's how the UK came about. But once they united with the English they became their bulldog, and a very willing partner at that. England couldn't have conquered the world without Scottish regiments, so, as I say, we're not free from blame.
Right ,now ive gottit.It's the Scots,the Welsh,the English & them Scandinavians with the funny hats.
The Irish government can do what they want to the roads -I'm off to claim some compensation
Ha ha Larsheen! You sure you're Patrick McCabe in disguise? That was a fine rant - most enjoyable - except for the fact that it's all true.
BTW, youse invaded Caledonia a long time ago and gave it the name Scotland, and the language.
*Snort* - yeah probably that as well. There's 3 Ridings in Yorkshire, for a start...someone told me there's 2 in Tipperary is that correct (seriously)?
Having come from the place, I think there is one thing I can safely say without fear of being debunked at this stage, Rab - there are two Ridings in Tipp, and I come from the North one.
No Rab ye cant claim.The Irish collective memory goes back 800 years & no further.Before that it was the Celtic dawn & big giants roaming the land called the Formorians or something,and we cant be responsible for whatever them fellas did.So just give us back our Elgin marbles eh.
"I've always been crazy, but it keeps me from going insane" was a line from a country song way back that speaks to my condition. That contribution of yours, Larsheen, wasn't just therapy for you, but also for me. Over the past few hours, I haven't had such a good belly-laugh in a while. Maybe that's the truth about Ireland - desperate, as always, but not serious.
Larsheen if your older than me you ain't proving it on this site. Can't figure out how you came to figure out my age, I have never stated it at anytime. Your really should stop reading the Connor Cruise O'Brien's version of Irish history, if your so ticked of bout Irish politics, run for office and change it. You paint a picture of a country which is dark and dirty and has problems no other developed nation has seen before like child abuse, corruption, bad government and so on. Don't forget about the build in London built for the year 2000, the catholic church in the states, Porugal...
The house of commons too has made mistakes in its time governing its own people, but you must admit that they are at it alot longer at it than us and have a lot more political experience. For an Irish man, where is your pide of country, the conviction behind our music, poetry and arts? I get the feeling that you have a problem with the spire and piers, well poeple in connemara use boats to get to islands and you need piers, A choice today in northern Ireland will cost Ireland a lot more than a few million and so we move on and on as always. Ireland is not perfect, and it never has been, or will it ever be, but what country? But I think its a lot better than most other countries. but of course, that's a biased opinion
Now lads, let's not fall out over this. I'm feeling like I've stirred up a hornets nest here. I get the impression that ye's both are rightly very proud of your country, but just see how it's going rather differently - or is that too superficial an analysis. Remember most of the folks here have got more in common than things that divide them, and that's the love of playing the music.
BTW - you're right about the House of Commons - we (not me though) elected Mag the Bag Thatcher time and again, who nearly ruined the country.
And you'd think both sides in the North would have a bit of cop-on by now - photography of the decommisioning. Let them have their pictures I say, and get on with the job.
Ah Rab, your comment is inadvertently symptomatic of the misunderstanding previously referred to. I thought I could resist being dragged back into this mire, but here goes. Francis Stuart, author of the brilliant Black List Section H said, “When Drake was conquering new seas for the empire, the Irish were gazing into a black bog hole”. And that sums up the historically determined conflict of perspectives that underlies much of the aforementioned misunderstanding. The Irish were gazing into a bog hole, because their heads were stuck there by invaders who had kicked them off their own land into the bogs. That’s the brutal reality of much of Irish history. England hasn’t been invaded since 1066 and since then has never suffered foreign rule, but instead has lorded it over numerous other countries and peoples. My references to the dysfunctionality of the current Irish body politic and society were against the background of that Irish history and may have something to do with the dispossession, denigration and degradation of the nation over such a long time. However, I view that dysfunctionality as far less severe and dangerous than that of a nation that still clings to its imperialist hang-ups and pretensions by coat-tailing the current world bully and WASP soulmate in the Iraq business.
lar...Ok you are older, but thoerically I will live longer and one day too will be as much of a Paddy as you. I don't think we played music at any stage, I would remember such overtones, I think.
Well, it's good to know, david, that somebody somewhere doesn't think that post of mine was completely off the wall. The democratic deficit that you refer to and the capitalist controlled media tends to make one feel like a heretic or a fool for telling it like it is from the standpoint of a thinking human being who is not blinkered by ologies or isms and who has no great financial stake in the present plutocratic status quo. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be distracted by the likes of the carry-on that's keeping Jack awake.
I this the truth about Ireland?
I this the truth about Ireland?
Saturday's Guardian published this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,1364782,00.html
My recent visits to Ireland have been brief, and erm...not-so-recent, and in parts of the country where the "concretisation" of the Emerald Isle were not in great evidence.
Please tell me this is an exageration of the truth.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: *IS* this the truth about Ireland?
*IS* this the truth about Ireland?
Sorry.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
I spent six months in Ireland in 2002... I think the Guardian article was quite harshly worded but I can't say I wasn't disgusted by the number of tasteless strip malls, golf courses, and terribly ugly tract housing that all looks brand new...
There are still beautiful places (right now I've got Fanore on my mind, a beautiful coastal town on the coast of Clare) that have yet to be outwardly sullied... I had a general feeling that the whole Island was being turned into a big bloody theme park and, as an avid hiker and appreciator of nature, I was occasionally hard-pressed to leave the concrete behind...
sad but true my friend...
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by bestcraic
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Rab ,
How long is it since you were over here.The Dublin skyline is awash with tower cranes.Hotels are springing up in most of the tourist towns.There is a major overhaul of most main roads.(not a bad thing).Apart from the rape and pillage of historical sites such as The Hill of Tara .
Its a pity most of the politicans are not being used as dry filling for all this building as they are the most corrupt shower of wasters ever.So there is a lot of truth in the article.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Dphil
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
The story in the Guardian is mostly crap and this would not be the first time a reporter of the Guardian wrote crap about the the Republic. Yes, Ireland has motorways ( about 5) mostly around Dublin. Construction can be found in Ireland as can a very successful ecomnony, stable government voted in by the people who live here.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Oh come on! Ive never seen a country more hell bent in destroying its historic buildings.
I really dont think that people spend loads of tourist dollars to go and see some ole pebble dash housing estate.(which there are many)
Maybe its just me - but I went to Paris, Vienna, Prague etc to see the beautiful old buildings and be surrounded by historic things. In Ireland tho you do have loads of historic buildings nobody gives a damn. And the people who do care, get branded as tree hugging crustys.
They knock down a beautiful fully restored manor house in Galway and nobody bats an eyelid, if you tried that here in Australia you'd cop an ear full.
And 'stable government voted in by the people??? We just had an election here and it was very close -so probably half the country didnt vote for our current government. So that statement holds no water.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by bb
Is this the truth about Ireland? or America?
Unfortunately, I find too much reality in the article, and by that, I mean that the politicos and road-builders are in the power seat.
What do they care for scenery or culture?
The lorry driver isn’t interested in scenery, he wants to get to his destination ASAP
and as cheaply as possible.
Here in West Virginia we face the same problems: defacing the land with strip mining
and timber clearing, and road builders who have no regard for cultural imperatives or aesthetic appeal.
They don’t even know that they are ruining the heritage for our children, all in the name of economy. That would require a more liberal education. And who can afford that in these modern times?
Yes it is true, but that shouldn't stop you from visiting the last elements of a great culture before it disappears. There is still plenty to see and absorb. The roots there are very deep.
WB
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
There is some truth in the picture painted, Ireland is no longer the picture postcard that it once was, people are gripped by consumerism and "development" is used to justify lots of horrendous things. I remember a time when Ireland was still green, people has less things but more spirit and the craic was mighty (anytime pre 1990) - the problem was that I, like many of my friends and former classmates lived in London because we couldn't get a job here. Some things HAVE changed for the better!
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Cuso
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Would YOU want to live in a Museum? The Irish have as much right as any other nation to all the modern grandure and to live in decent housing.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Bernie
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
That comment about beggars on horses hits the nail on the head.And it's not just the politicians,they have the backing of the people by and large.People want to build huge houses,they want to fill the roads with cars & from my experience everytime i go home they dont care at all about pollution.
I stayed in Claregalway a couple of years back and could not believe the amount of "McMansions" springing up all over that beautiful countryside.It didnt exactly inspire me to write any haunting slow airs...
Meanwhile in my homeplace of Cork,i am told that planning permission is very difficult to get, so maybe it's a local thing.There doesnt seem to be too much going up around my village.But the cities are diabolical.You really have to go away & then come back to see how bad it is.
The Irish need to cop themselves on big time before it's too late.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Good man Larsheen!
As a "foreigner" :~} who brought this topic up, I hope it's ok for me to chip in. It looks like this one, even though not about the music directly, has aroused some passions - and quite rightly too. Many people are on this site who've never been to Ireland, or haven't been for several years, yet they have this idyllic picture of jolly rural folk on donkeys up in the mountains etc, so they need to know the present reality. For example, I've heard some American friends who want to "give it all up" in the States and move to Ireland. Yes, I was in the North 2 years ago and we took a day trip over to Donegal - so that's my most recent trip to the Republic! Prior to that I'd been over several times for weeks at a time throughout the 1990s. So I'm sure it has changed enormously since then.
I get the feeling that the Guardian article is highlighting the worst excesses and painting a bleaker picture than is the reality. But going from what friends over there have been saying, Dublin is changing dramatically, and in the country people can't afford to buy property because rich cityfolk are putting up the prices by buying holiday homes, everyone is chasing every buck that's going neighbours stabbing each other in the back to buy land, and so on. These are the tales I hear, so I'm only relaying them on. The Guardian article appears to substantiate those stories. Don't get me wrong - I don't want to knock Ireland or the Irish - but it seems things have gone on without any regulation or intervention by the state.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Well the state intervenes alright - not just in the right way.
The problems you talk about Rab,that are afflicting Ireland right now are pretty much the same for any rich western country.It's just that in Ireland,as in the US, if the government feels it's on to a populist thing,it goes out of it's way to crush any voices of dissent no matter how reasonable.And that should always ring alarm bells.
Ireland's changed since the seventies when the government considered setting up a nuclear power station in Carnsore Point and it only took an army of hippies and Christy Moore's guitar to send the politician's scurrying with their plans.A bit more of that spirit is needed now.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Yeah - we could all do with a bit more of that spirit!
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Not a particularly new trend - remember the Central Bank vs. the Viking settlement at Wood Quay in 1977? I expect there's just more money about now to do this on a grander scale.
Of course, there's not many role models about that show you the "sustainable" road to prosperity. Not an excuse, just a sad comment on human nature.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by grego
Another species of 'cancer'?!
What the Dubliners are doing to the West Coast sucks... Sorry about the language. Some would choose in their own cause, as and excuse for it all - 'progress'? From a distance it looks like seagull shight.
We'd been away from The Dingle for a long time, returning a few years back. They used to complain about Germans buying up summer homes out on the tip, but now it is mostly Irish, quick and nasty bungalows, and like everyplace else so affected by this 'cancer', it is pricing the locals out of the market. Mostly it is 'city-folk', from Dublin and Cork for example, 'reclaiming their roots' - Bullshit! - with 'more money than sense' is the term isn't it? We saw a lot of old properties rotting into the ground. Like the French, they want a 'new' bungalow, and those are popping up all over the place, as well as caravans... I'd never known the Dingle to have traffic jams, well, it does now...both sides...
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Bloody Ronnie Drew. How can you trust someone with a voice like that?
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by grego
Not Ronnie, never, the other bloke...
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by ceolachan
Barney, that's it, don't you know it is always the banjo players fault...
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Speaking purely as a tourist, when I visited the west coast two years ago I was amazed at the development all along the west coast from doolin to donegal and the cliffs of moher to the mullet. Anywhere that was flat enough and accessible had had a bungalow built on it. Now of course it is completely understandable that everyone wants to have a nice holiday home for not much money with a big picture window looking out on a nice unspoilt beach / headland. But that surely is the point of having local government and planning rules to take the difficult decisions or at least ensure that development is sensitive to the environment (both from an aesthetic and ecological perspective). It need not cost a lot more or deny locals what they want but it still should be controlled - else they will surely kill the golden goose of tourism dollars (and pounds and euro and yen etc etc)
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by nick b
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Not to hijack Danny's thread, but to give it some ITM relevance (and thereby, maybe save it...)
What's the impact of unbridled development on the music in Ireland? I believe the keepers of the flame have traditionally lived in parts of the country untouched by major development. Is the music as found in its natural environment threatened by yuppiedom?
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by grego
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Carrickmines "Castle" was nothing more than a row of stones before the National Roads Authority paid to have it excavated. All of a sudden, every hippy in Europe thinks they found the Taj Mahal.
Now we will have a road which is proposed and will pass close ( about 1.5Km )to the Hill of Tara, and we are accused of rape and pillage. Sorry if we dont have pigs in the parlour and "comely maidens dancing at the crossroads" anymore like the tourist expects, but like the music, we have to grow, and if some twit in the Guardian does'nt approve, well tough.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Backer
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
I give up
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Maybe just give up being so negative Cunnla. You can't expect to go away and have everythng look the same when you get back. Believe it or not, people in Clare or Donegal have every right to have a decent road network, and modern housing. Who knows....... next the kids will have playstations!. Too bad if it spoils the perfect picture, this group of beggars are on a roll. Long may it last.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Backer
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
This comely maidens at the crossroads routine is just a cop out.The issue is about sustainable development.An issue which faces any modern industrialised state.It is about development that meets the needs and aspirations of local communities but doesnt destroy the environment which they and future generations depend on.Every society should take this responsibility seriously and it's a sad fact that few do.And Ireland?...Well,we cant even face up to the issue without bringing out these old ghosts about comely maidens and intefering "strangers" etc..
To respond to grego's interesting question,I dont think any of this development will have a negative effect on the music.ITM has flourished all over the world and in some of the most built-up over-crowded areas.There is no reason to think that that shouldn't continue.However a society that chooses to ignore it's own culture in favour of a more homogenized mass-culture is sure to be a poorer one.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
As a visitor, the traffic seems much worse - probably something to do with petrol being the only thing that's cheap, and the lack of public transport
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by The Archivist
Decent housing and transportation is great but...
Though I haven't been to Ireland, it sounds like they are following an American train of thought. Chase the almighty dollar. Its understandable that the Irish want "decent road network, and modern housing", but there are other ways of going about this. If Ireland would just look around at the U.S. and Europe, they would notice what a mad flurry of highways and suburbs does to the quality of life. I live in Southern California, which is disgustingly choked by highways, cul-de-sacs, and malls (The Block, South Coast, Laguna Hills, plus the countless shopping centers). If the Irish want this, they should live here for a while and see how GRAND it is. "Progress", as some people call it, is not all its cracked up to be.
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by Harrison
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
How many hospatal beds did the spire cost? A lot less than the bush/blair war. Ok, so we need to build houses to live in, then roads to get to the houses.Oh we have also running water and electic too! Mobile phone masts and factories can be seen too. Alot of our so called historic buildings were not build by the Irish, so not a lot of love lost there. The pogress seen in Ireland today was not possible before, we didn't have the money. Visitors are welcome to Ireland on Holidays. Buy buying property in Ireland by nons is what made the could that little bit costly. So what, for to long we sold if far to cheaply. As for the Guardian, i will say again, I has a strong history in being biased towards Ireland.
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
It surprises me that some people feel it's ok to help to preserve Ireland's musical heritage, but not Ireland's architectural and archeological heritage. Here's a link to stuff about Tara:
http://www.mythicalireland.com/ancientsites/tara/
I recived this email from Aidan, originally from Neillidh Mulligan via Josephine Keegan:
Dear Friends,
I have just read and signed the online petition:
"Protect Tara"
hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition
service, at:
I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you might
agree, too. If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and
consider
signing yourself.
Best wishes,
Néillidh Ó Maolagáin
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
...duhh...wha' happened to the link? Try again:
http://www.petitiononline.com/Temair/
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Well, here's the website of the author of the Guardian article.
http://www.marklynas.org/
Judge for yourself, but it seems to me he's a committed environmentalist author and journalist, and slagging off Ireland is certainly not his mission in life.
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Having just returned from a visit to Ireland can only add that Ireland seems to be colliding with the modern world right now. After being a country that people were leaving to find prosperity elsewhere for so long, it now is the fastest developing economy in Europe, and was voted the European country with the highest quality of life by an International economy magazine. Because of the recent economic upturn there is no infrastructure in place to control development. Even the archeologists are arguing about the history of Ireland to support their particular views on development.
The "Spike" in Dublin was a shock for me to discover. I couldn't find one person who thought it was a good idea -- seems to me that most folks see it as a waste of money. If I were to draw a political cartoon about it I would do a cut-away of the earth and have it as a giant hypodermic needle with Uncle Sam administering US greedy corporate ideals and values into Ireland.
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
I think I'd take exception to that cartoon, Jack -- the idea of naive Ireland exploited by the sophisticated US. A better image might be the giant middle finger of the Celtic Tiger raised to rest of the world -- if the middle finger actually meant anything in Ireland.
The spike's ugly though, isn't it?
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by grego
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
That's not exactly how I meant it grego. I don't mean for Ireland to appear "naive" in the cartoon, but rather just inspired.
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Larsheen, please don't accuse me of being anti British you couldn't be less accurate. Many nationalities have and still build on Irish soil. Yes Britain was responsible for the famine of 1845-47, in much the same way African Governments are resposible today. Are you sure your Irish? Is this Rev Dr Ians Ireland your from?
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
"inspired" - good one, Jack. (or should it be "enspired"?)
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by grego
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Wait a minute, compaq, when you say "*Britain* was responsible for the famine" that same Britain as you call it was also responsible for the Clearances of the Scottish Highlands of crofting communities, to make way for more cash-friendly sheep farms, putting children down mines in England and Wales and shipping people off to (the then) inhospitable Australia (granted that one has made a comeback!) There's no way I feel any pang of guilt about being British (although I'd prefer to be thought of as Scots) because my ancestors were both Clearances and emigré Irish (the names Byrne and Lennon crop up in my grandparents).
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
It is only natural that the Celtic Tiger topic would generate so much heat on this thread, given the madness that has prevailed in Ireland over the past ten years or so. Well, here’s some more. Samuel Beckett once said that the Irish were fu**ed by the Brits and the priests and he was right about that. Nowadays there’s a different shower of fu**ers at it – our own gombeen capitalists with their hireling “politicians” and slave-driving bosses. The rest of us, the wage slaves, are required to work harder than ever to “create the wealth” so that it can be creamed off by the aforementioned shower of fu**ers. Plus ca change.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Phonsie - well, if you're gonna just keep on blaming The Brits for everything no wonder. Larsheen and Cunnla - youse said "I give up" when you got answers that didn't fit your expectations. My advice is the opposite - don't give up. Keep on explaining what you know the truth is, for every 100 people that you explain to, maybe 1 or 2 will listen. And then some other people might listen to them.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
i think the article was pretty true for the most part, my cousins farm was cut in ahlf by one of those highways out of dublin, shit happens and things are always changing what an you do. "lifes a bitch"
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by bmcclat
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Rab, I haven't blamed the Brits for everything. Clearly I haven't blamed Britain for the Celtic Tiger madness and I have also apportioned blame to the (Irish) priests. Please don't misrepresent my position. It is a historical fact that Ireland was ruled by the English for almost 800 years and therefore England was mainly responsible for what happened in Ireland, as compaq said. I think you need to acknowledge this. And if you studied, for example, the racist rantings of Giraldus Cambrensis, an apologist for the Norman Invasion of Ireland, or the subsequent express English policy of extirpating the Irish language, customs, traditions etc I think you would have a more objective view of the effects of English rule in Ireland. I am an egalitarian anti-imperialist. I am not Anglo-phobic, though I do think a formal acknowledgment and apology (if not indeed redress) is due for past wrongs done to Ireland by Britain. Is that unreasonable?
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Sorry phonsie - it was meant as a rhetorical question, to be read: if ONE is going to blame the brits...etc. hope you get my drift.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
As for an apology by the queen for 800 years of imperialism in Ireland - I'd *love* to see that! Can you imagine it?
But then there would have to be reparations, and cases going through the courts from maybe 25,000,000 displaced persons of Irish extraction...
...hey, maybe we could overturn the present order legally...
:~}
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
That's OK, Rab, we're only continuing the long and noble tradition of misunderstanding between the two islands. Regarding the apology, you'd never know. On his first visit to the erstwhile Emerald Isle a few years ago Prince Charles did make a statement tantamount to such an apology. And as for the reparations, by means of unnumerable scandalously expensive tribunals into corruption over the past few years in Ireland, we've built up a merry army of well padded lawyers who would be up for that kind of legal Armageddon. So maybe that wouldn't be a good idea after all.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
If the knobs in the North ever got around to settling things I'm sure she would make a visit to Belfest and Dublin as a sign of healing. She would give a speech and it could possible have repentent words in it for past blunders by her governments but compo? forget it.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Your comments about giving up Rab are dead right.So here i am wading into the bloody waters of this thread again with my sword.
I think the whole British (or should i say English) imperialist thing has great importance to the current situation in Ireland.It's not a bad thing to remember or acknowledge the various atrocities.But we have to take responsibilities for our own mess as well.Do we really want to be still hanging on to the coat-tails of the empire while simultaneously kicking at it's heels?
Also the policies that were behind many of the atrocities in Ireland were to do with capitalist expansion.Money and Power took precedence without thought or care of those whose lives they affected.Sound familiar....??
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Can we at least all be clear on what is English and what is British as they seem to be used interchangeably through most of this thread.
Without wanting to be too controversial, the "English" although undoubtedly to blame for much were not soley responsible for ruling the British isles over the last 800 years, they were helped out by the Tudors - remember them? they were Welsh - and the Stuarts, who were Scottish, not forgetting the Hanoverians who were German (but then they had less actual power). Then there was also the union of Scotland and England and Wales in 1707, creating the big happy family that we still have today.
The original conquest of Ireland by "England" was actually undertaken by the Normans - who were also uninvited guests in England too following the 1066 invasion.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by nick b
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Now Nick b,you are giving me a headache.I just dont know who to blame now for the collective damage to our national psyche.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Actually, Nick and Cunnla, I shouldn't be trying to get the Scots off the hook too much. Before the Union of Parliaments in 1707 they tried a bit of imperialism themselves - it was called the Darien Expedition to the Darien Gap in Panama in 1698, I think it was. It ended in disaster and many of the 1000's who went perished with malaria starvation etc. It near enough broke the Scottish economy, and so they were near enough forced into a union with their southern neighbours - So that's how the UK came about. But once they united with the English they became their bulldog, and a very willing partner at that. England couldn't have conquered the world without Scottish regiments, so, as I say, we're not free from blame.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Actually, I should say, that's how Great Britain came about - the UK was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and *Ireland* - in 1800, I believe.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Right ,now ive gottit.It's the Scots,the Welsh,the English & them Scandinavians with the funny hats.
The Irish government can do what they want to the roads -I'm off to claim some compensation
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Ha ha Larsheen! You sure you're Patrick McCabe in disguise? That was a fine rant - most enjoyable - except for the fact that it's all true.
BTW, youse invaded Caledonia a long time ago and gave it the name Scotland, and the language.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Look lads your totally f***ing up my compo claims now.Just put a lid on it.Right.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Wait a minute - if youse came over to Scotland 1600 years ago, I should be due for a claim as well, right?
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
*Snort* - yeah probably that as well. There's 3 Ridings in Yorkshire, for a start...someone told me there's 2 in Tipperary is that correct (seriously)?
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Having come from the place, I think there is one thing I can safely say without fear of being debunked at this stage, Rab - there are two Ridings in Tipp, and I come from the North one.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Though there is one other thing - You're dead right, Larsheen.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Or can I? I think I'm just as confused as you are Larsheen, but I'm not sure about that either.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
No Rab ye cant claim.The Irish collective memory goes back 800 years & no further.Before that it was the Celtic dawn & big giants roaming the land called the Formorians or something,and we cant be responsible for whatever them fellas did.So just give us back our Elgin marbles eh.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
"I've always been crazy, but it keeps me from going insane" was a line from a country song way back that speaks to my condition. That contribution of yours, Larsheen, wasn't just therapy for you, but also for me. Over the past few hours, I haven't had such a good belly-laugh in a while. Maybe that's the truth about Ireland - desperate, as always, but not serious.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
off to another thread i guess
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by cunnla
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
what and leave me stuck here? Lads! Lads!
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
leave him the flashlight and tell Zina to pick him up one her way home...
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by grego
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
...and a couple of those guinnesses yer hiding!
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Larsheen if your older than me you ain't proving it on this site. Can't figure out how you came to figure out my age, I have never stated it at anytime. Your really should stop reading the Connor Cruise O'Brien's version of Irish history, if your so ticked of bout Irish politics, run for office and change it. You paint a picture of a country which is dark and dirty and has problems no other developed nation has seen before like child abuse, corruption, bad government and so on. Don't forget about the build in London built for the year 2000, the catholic church in the states, Porugal...
The house of commons too has made mistakes in its time governing its own people, but you must admit that they are at it alot longer at it than us and have a lot more political experience. For an Irish man, where is your pide of country, the conviction behind our music, poetry and arts? I get the feeling that you have a problem with the spire and piers, well poeple in connemara use boats to get to islands and you need piers, A choice today in northern Ireland will cost Ireland a lot more than a few million and so we move on and on as always. Ireland is not perfect, and it never has been, or will it ever be, but what country? But I think its a lot better than most other countries. but of course, that's a biased opinion
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Now lads, let's not fall out over this. I'm feeling like I've stirred up a hornets nest here. I get the impression that ye's both are rightly very proud of your country, but just see how it's going rather differently - or is that too superficial an analysis. Remember most of the folks here have got more in common than things that divide them, and that's the love of playing the music.
BTW - you're right about the House of Commons - we (not me though) elected Mag the Bag Thatcher time and again, who nearly ruined the country.
And you'd think both sides in the North would have a bit of cop-on by now - photography of the decommisioning. Let them have their pictures I say, and get on with the job.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Ah Rab, your comment is inadvertently symptomatic of the misunderstanding previously referred to. I thought I could resist being dragged back into this mire, but here goes. Francis Stuart, author of the brilliant Black List Section H said, “When Drake was conquering new seas for the empire, the Irish were gazing into a black bog hole”. And that sums up the historically determined conflict of perspectives that underlies much of the aforementioned misunderstanding. The Irish were gazing into a bog hole, because their heads were stuck there by invaders who had kicked them off their own land into the bogs. That’s the brutal reality of much of Irish history. England hasn’t been invaded since 1066 and since then has never suffered foreign rule, but instead has lorded it over numerous other countries and peoples. My references to the dysfunctionality of the current Irish body politic and society were against the background of that Irish history and may have something to do with the dispossession, denigration and degradation of the nation over such a long time. However, I view that dysfunctionality as far less severe and dangerous than that of a nation that still clings to its imperialist hang-ups and pretensions by coat-tailing the current world bully and WASP soulmate in the Iraq business.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
lar...Ok you are older, but thoerically I will live longer and one day too will be as much of a Paddy as you. I don't think we played music at any stage, I would remember such overtones, I think.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
The girl in the apt. next door is breeding like a rabbit right now too.
# Posted on December 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
She wouldn't notice I'm afraid, she'd think it was an echo.
# Posted on December 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: I this the truth about Ireland?
Well, it's good to know, david, that somebody somewhere doesn't think that post of mine was completely off the wall. The democratic deficit that you refer to and the capitalist controlled media tends to make one feel like a heretic or a fool for telling it like it is from the standpoint of a thinking human being who is not blinkered by ologies or isms and who has no great financial stake in the present plutocratic status quo. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be distracted by the likes of the carry-on that's keeping Jack awake.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by An Goban Saor