In putting my favourite ITM track (Bothy's Rip the Calico set) down on the thread on that topic, I got thinking about guitar sounds on ITM recordings, particularly of bands. I have never heard a guitar as well recorded, at least in terms of what I want to hear, as can be heard with the Bothy Band. I find that surprising given how long ago that was and how many bands have come along since then. It's relatively high in the mix but doesn't get in the way of the melody instruments. The tone is rich and there's very little percussive pick sound that other recordings seem to favour.
What do y'all think?
It really is a matter of preference.
You mention absence of percussive pick sound which should mean that the top end has been taken out. In a lot of recordings the guitar is given a secondary peak at that frequency range so that you can hear that percussive thing. It is deemed desirable by many. But it is in the similar freq range as some of the melody instruments so it will interfere a bit with their sound.
On some recordings I suspect the guitar has been double tracked so that once is mainly that percussive pick/slap sound for rhythm and the other mid to bass which is a bit more note oriented with some fancy bass runs etc.
If you keep the guitar frequency in the lower ranges of bass and mid range then it will not hide or cover over any of the usual melody instruments, therefore avoiding the crime of "Melodicide" (I have been waiting to use that word).
If you are Denis Cahill you just play so few notes that there is no fear of drowning the melody.
Some of the earlier recordings had the guitar in one channel and the melody instrument in the other so you could mix to your preference.
Seriously, listen to Blake on the Kane sisters album. It doesn't get much better than that.
OK, personal-bias-disclosure here, 'cause I've played in sessions with him -- but check out Brian Hanlon on his album with Donal Donnelly, "Driven," which came out last year. Brian is not only an excellent guitar player, he is extremely fastidious about recording things just the right way.
Donough is absolutely right in pointing out the importance of placing instruments in their own frequency space. If the engineer's ears aren't enough, there are things called spectrum analysers which are very helpful in determining the bandwidth of an instument. It is then possible to very specifically EQ instruments into their own space.
Then of course there is the musician. Tony McManus (Scottish guitar master) plays so precisely & with such a high quality of tone that even high in the mix he is never intrusive. Check out his work with Alisdair Fraser.
Jim Murray on "Ragairne"?
Ed Boyd on "Rubai"?
Ian Carr with Karen Tweed?
Steve Cooney on "Meiteal"?
-not to mention Donogh Hennesy, John Doyle and so on. But in the end it's just a matter of whether you like things simple and mellow, simple and percussive, complicated yet mellow etc.
I have a new preference with every mood - also in my own playing!
Away with your EQuing instruments into their own space. If you need your producer to fix your "melodicide" (good word that, can I enroll it in my quest agaist the bodhran?) then your playing is off. But I agree about that Tony McManus and Alisdair Fraser album, it's a masterclass finding space for your partner. What I like about it is it's a proper duet, not a fiddler with accompanist. They both really have their ears open all the time
I can't let this thread pass without saying 'Bryan Sutton, Bryan Sutton, Bryan Sutton!'.
He's a bluegrass player, but I think I'll get away with that since Bela Fleck got onto the Desert Island Discs thread at least twice. The person who introduced me to his playing described it as 'creamy', which is absolutely right. Not to mention, just super-humanly incredible in terms of technique, though utterly human in terms of feel and expression. OK, this is a thread about aspects of recording, not playing - but the recordings are indeed beautifully clean, warm and balanced, and he's generally in with a whole bunch of other bluegrass instruments - mandolin, fiddle, dobro etc. His website is http://www.bryansutton.com - but you can hear sound samples on Amazon. Look up his albums, 'Bluegrass Guitar' and 'Ready to Go'.
They seem to have picked the samples at random; so, many of them actually feature the other instruments. I can't check just now as my browser is having a strop, but I think that on Bluegrass Guitar, the sample for Back Up and Push is one where you can hear Bryan's playing.
Try either of the Daimh albums (both listed on this site). The balance between the melody and accompaniment instruments is perfect. Ross Martin (on guitar) is one of the best accompanists on the "scene" right now and the guitar work comes through really clearly on the album - in fact all the instruments do. Clips can be heard at www.daimh.net
The $20 is in the mail Octogreg (how are you doing by the way? - it was a while ago now that I saw you in T.O.) - Mind you, I'm afraid I don't agree with you on the Pierre CD. I suppose it's not bad for a live recording (lapsing into my best Ricky Gervais impression).
I'll definitely follow up on the recordings suggested that I don't already have. Guitar sound is definitely a question of taste and different players have different ideas about how they want to sound. The Bothy situation might be in the minority in that the guitar player was also a co-producer which probably gave him a bit more clout!
I'm not going to get into an email flame war here, but it's a smokin' album right thru - 'nuf said. I also agree with the critique of the Fraser/McManus album - fabbo.
Ian, if you're innerested, said Mr. McManus is giving a house concert in T.O. tomorrow. Contact me offlist fer details if you can make the drive.
Ian. How about the engineering on McManus' recordings -Tune for Frankie comes to mind. Any of the recent rash of recordings featuring John Blake are really well engineered with tasty overdubs etc.
But I've always enjoyed Michael O Domhnaill's approach and look at it as a model of sorts (though I do like my pick noise). The track I was referring to last night is from the Burke/O'Domhnaill recording, "Promenade": Walsh's Hornpipe/The Old Torn Petticoat (hrnp)/The Old Torn Petticoat (reel)/The Bank of Ireland. Well recorded and gets my vote (for today at least) as my favourite track of trad.
BTW, if I tell you you're great, can I have $20 too?
I think the digital era is unkind to the acoustic guitar. When I think of my favorite folky recordings of the 60's and 70's (Pentangle, Bothy Band, Simon and Garfunkle, Nick Drake, etc.) they all have this glorious, fat, rich and juicy sound that's pretty much a thing of the past these days. Ben Harper comes close. I think it has somthing to do with the mics they were using and the analog tape. ( Not to mention those sweet guitars everybody seemed to be making back then.)
I have an album called "Six Strings North of the Border" that features Canadian guitar players such as JP Cormier, Gordie Sampson and Bruce Cockburn. Some of the tracks on there are incredible.
Paul - you're a great guitar player and a great fiddler. That'll be $40 please.
My main question was really geared at band recordings. I think Tony McManus's recordings are superb sounding - Greg don't miss the house concert. Tony did one at my house a few weeks ago and it was stunning.
Interesting. Listening to Rip the Calico, a few thoughts come to mind. I agree, I like the sound well enough. First off, I'd guess the deep sound starts with a dreadnought shape, which is what pretty much everyone used back then. Second, the style is quite simple, lots of straight downstrokes, and I would think this would be the least pick-sounding of many styles. Third, I think the producer cared to give it a special place in the mix – when the melody instruments all enter, they're all together in the center of the mix, while the guitar seems to have its own space on the outside. Lastly, there are a lot of instruments on that track, meaning the guitar can afford to be relatively simple – it doesn't have to "do it all", or do double duty as a percussion instrument for example, the way it does in some other arrangements or settings. Do you think this is a "compressed" sound?
There are some players and tracks mentioned in this thread that I'm not very familiar with. I'd like to hear a brief analysis about why everyone's favorites stand out – tunings, style, etc.
Just a note of dissent, here; I have one Tony McManus album; I have to say, it's a bit heavy on the reverb, for my taste. I'd like to hear him in real life, minus the cathedral effect.
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned Dick Gaughan's guitar sound on "Handful Of Earth". It's a perfect example of that fat,warm and juicy sound that Kerri Brown mentioned.Digital recording's got a lot to answer for.Back to analogue!
Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
In putting my favourite ITM track (Bothy's Rip the Calico set) down on the thread on that topic, I got thinking about guitar sounds on ITM recordings, particularly of bands. I have never heard a guitar as well recorded, at least in terms of what I want to hear, as can be heard with the Bothy Band. I find that surprising given how long ago that was and how many bands have come along since then. It's relatively high in the mix but doesn't get in the way of the melody instruments. The tone is rich and there's very little percussive pick sound that other recordings seem to favour.
What do y'all think?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by ian clark
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Ian Carr maybe ?
Zan McCleod backing James Kelly in The Ring Sessions.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by BegF
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
It really is a matter of preference.
You mention absence of percussive pick sound which should mean that the top end has been taken out. In a lot of recordings the guitar is given a secondary peak at that frequency range so that you can hear that percussive thing. It is deemed desirable by many. But it is in the similar freq range as some of the melody instruments so it will interfere a bit with their sound.
On some recordings I suspect the guitar has been double tracked so that once is mainly that percussive pick/slap sound for rhythm and the other mid to bass which is a bit more note oriented with some fancy bass runs etc.
If you keep the guitar frequency in the lower ranges of bass and mid range then it will not hide or cover over any of the usual melody instruments, therefore avoiding the crime of "Melodicide" (I have been waiting to use that word).
If you are Denis Cahill you just play so few notes that there is no fear of drowning the melody.
Some of the earlier recordings had the guitar in one channel and the melody instrument in the other so you could mix to your preference.
Seriously, listen to Blake on the Kane sisters album. It doesn't get much better than that.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Donough
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
OK, personal-bias-disclosure here, 'cause I've played in sessions with him -- but check out Brian Hanlon on his album with Donal Donnelly, "Driven," which came out last year. Brian is not only an excellent guitar player, he is extremely fastidious about recording things just the right way.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by sts
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
http://thesession.org/recordings/display.php/522
This is simply one of the best fiddle/guitar albums available in the genre. The of the guitar in the mix is fabbo, esp. on the polka set.
and no, I'm not being cheeky.
Cheers,
Greg
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by octogreg
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Donough is absolutely right in pointing out the importance of placing instruments in their own frequency space. If the engineer's ears aren't enough, there are things called spectrum analysers which are very helpful in determining the bandwidth of an instument. It is then possible to very specifically EQ instruments into their own space.
Then of course there is the musician. Tony McManus (Scottish guitar master) plays so precisely & with such a high quality of tone that even high in the mix he is never intrusive. Check out his work with Alisdair Fraser.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Leftheris
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
So is it the same Ian Clark then ?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by BegF
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
How'z 'bout:
Jim Murray on "Ragairne"?
Ed Boyd on "Rubai"?
Ian Carr with Karen Tweed?
Steve Cooney on "Meiteal"?
-not to mention Donogh Hennesy, John Doyle and so on. But in the end it's just a matter of whether you like things simple and mellow, simple and percussive, complicated yet mellow etc.
I have a new preference with every mood - also in my own playing!
/DADdyGADdy
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by DADdyGADdy
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Away with your EQuing instruments into their own space. If you need your producer to fix your "melodicide" (good word that, can I enroll it in my quest agaist the bodhran?) then your playing is off. But I agree about that Tony McManus and Alisdair Fraser album, it's a masterclass finding space for your partner. What I like about it is it's a proper duet, not a fiddler with accompanist. They both really have their ears open all the time
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
I can't let this thread pass without saying 'Bryan Sutton, Bryan Sutton, Bryan Sutton!'.
He's a bluegrass player, but I think I'll get away with that since Bela Fleck got onto the Desert Island Discs thread at least twice. The person who introduced me to his playing described it as 'creamy', which is absolutely right. Not to mention, just super-humanly incredible in terms of technique, though utterly human in terms of feel and expression. OK, this is a thread about aspects of recording, not playing - but the recordings are indeed beautifully clean, warm and balanced, and he's generally in with a whole bunch of other bluegrass instruments - mandolin, fiddle, dobro etc. His website is http://www.bryansutton.com - but you can hear sound samples on Amazon. Look up his albums, 'Bluegrass Guitar' and 'Ready to Go'.
They seem to have picked the samples at random; so, many of them actually feature the other instruments. I can't check just now as my browser is having a strop, but I think that on Bluegrass Guitar, the sample for Back Up and Push is one where you can hear Bryan's playing.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Nell
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Try either of the Daimh albums (both listed on this site). The balance between the melody and accompaniment instruments is perfect. Ross Martin (on guitar) is one of the best accompanists on the "scene" right now and the guitar work comes through really clearly on the album - in fact all the instruments do. Clips can be heard at www.daimh.net
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
http://www.daimh.net - sorry
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
The $20 is in the mail Octogreg (how are you doing by the way? - it was a while ago now that I saw you in T.O.) - Mind you, I'm afraid I don't agree with you on the Pierre CD. I suppose it's not bad for a live recording (lapsing into my best Ricky Gervais impression).
I'll definitely follow up on the recordings suggested that I don't already have. Guitar sound is definitely a question of taste and different players have different ideas about how they want to sound. The Bothy situation might be in the minority in that the guitar player was also a co-producer which probably gave him a bit more clout!
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by ian clark
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Hi Ian,
I'm not going to get into an email flame war here, but it's a smokin' album right thru - 'nuf said. I also agree with the critique of the Fraser/McManus album - fabbo.
Ian, if you're innerested, said Mr. McManus is giving a house concert in T.O. tomorrow. Contact me offlist fer details if you can make the drive.
Cheers,
Greg
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by octogreg
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Ian. How about the engineering on McManus' recordings -Tune for Frankie comes to mind. Any of the recent rash of recordings featuring John Blake are really well engineered with tasty overdubs etc.
But I've always enjoyed Michael O Domhnaill's approach and look at it as a model of sorts (though I do like my pick noise). The track I was referring to last night is from the Burke/O'Domhnaill recording, "Promenade": Walsh's Hornpipe/The Old Torn Petticoat (hrnp)/The Old Torn Petticoat (reel)/The Bank of Ireland. Well recorded and gets my vote (for today at least) as my favourite track of trad.
BTW, if I tell you you're great, can I have $20 too?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Pawl
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Not listening to a lot of trad right now...
Roy Buchanan...
...Telecaster...
...Awsome...
...mmmmmmmmm...... Think I'll go chomp on some green onions, they make me feel so blue.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by c_ya
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
I think the digital era is unkind to the acoustic guitar. When I think of my favorite folky recordings of the 60's and 70's (Pentangle, Bothy Band, Simon and Garfunkle, Nick Drake, etc.) they all have this glorious, fat, rich and juicy sound that's pretty much a thing of the past these days. Ben Harper comes close. I think it has somthing to do with the mics they were using and the analog tape. ( Not to mention those sweet guitars everybody seemed to be making back then.)
I have an album called "Six Strings North of the Border" that features Canadian guitar players such as JP Cormier, Gordie Sampson and Bruce Cockburn. Some of the tracks on there are incredible.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
If we're going outside of ITM, then the solo acoustic guitar album that gets my vote is this one:
http://www.davidgrier.com/housetomyself.htm
The variations on the old chestnuts is out of this world. The sound quality is top shelf imo.
I got my copy here:
http://www.elderly.com/recordings/artist_list_full_description?aname=Grier%2C%20David
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by octogreg
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Paul - you're a great guitar player and a great fiddler. That'll be $40 please.
My main question was really geared at band recordings. I think Tony McManus's recordings are superb sounding - Greg don't miss the house concert. Tony did one at my house a few weeks ago and it was stunning.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by ian clark
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Interesting. Listening to Rip the Calico, a few thoughts come to mind. I agree, I like the sound well enough. First off, I'd guess the deep sound starts with a dreadnought shape, which is what pretty much everyone used back then. Second, the style is quite simple, lots of straight downstrokes, and I would think this would be the least pick-sounding of many styles. Third, I think the producer cared to give it a special place in the mix – when the melody instruments all enter, they're all together in the center of the mix, while the guitar seems to have its own space on the outside. Lastly, there are a lot of instruments on that track, meaning the guitar can afford to be relatively simple – it doesn't have to "do it all", or do double duty as a percussion instrument for example, the way it does in some other arrangements or settings. Do you think this is a "compressed" sound?
There are some players and tracks mentioned in this thread that I'm not very familiar with. I'd like to hear a brief analysis about why everyone's favorites stand out – tunings, style, etc.
Enjoying the comments, Cheers.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by StringTheory
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Just a note of dissent, here; I have one Tony McManus album; I have to say, it's a bit heavy on the reverb, for my taste. I'd like to hear him in real life, minus the cathedral effect.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Nell
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Nell, I know the rcord your thinking of and I agree. but the one with alistair fraser is quite dry. completly different.
Prince joke:
and when she asked me, "why is your organ so small"
I replied,"I didn't know I was playing in a cathedral"
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Nell, if you had a son, and he played the mandola
We could talk about Nell's son's mandola.
I'll get my coat.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by BegF
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned Dick Gaughan's guitar sound on "Handful Of Earth". It's a perfect example of that fat,warm and juicy sound that Kerri Brown mentioned.Digital recording's got a lot to answer for.Back to analogue!
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Or, BegF, if I had a son, maybe *he* would have a son, called Colm?
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Nell
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
...but not "Pillar"
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by BegF
Re: Heard any well-recorded guitar lately?
Oh God, sorry, that's really bad....in my defence I'm locked !
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by BegF