I play mostly mandolin, have done for about four years, play a lot of jigs and reels and love it. But I rarely get to hear other mandolin players in an ITM setting. I'm talking live music rather than recorded.
What picking/embellishment - oh what the hell just talk about how you play.
(Please)
I am not sure anything I Have to say about playing technique's would be helpfull, As you have played for longer than me
( sorry ). I looked at your profile and see that you are trying a bit of bluegrass, Can you recommend / or know any bluegrass sites with sheet music please ?
I've been playing a bit longer than that but, of course, it doesn't mean that I'm likely to be be any better. Also, I don't play Irish music exclusively--I'm just getting into the "better tunes" lately. I also play the fiddle etc so I'm probably not quite as focused on mandolin playing as I could be considering the number of years I've been playing.
Having said that, I generally make much more use of triplets while playing tunes on the mandolin but there's no hard and fast rule- just what feels right at the time. Other than that, some of the fiddle techniques can be transferred e.g grace notes, rolls etc but I'll also use "hammer on" and "pull off" effects too. To get a fuller sound, I'll use adjacent strings as "drones" and include unisons, chords etc from time to time. It just depends on the tune and the context in which I'm playing. In a fast and furious session, I have to keep things a lot simpler.
There are good discussions about this on Mandolin Cafe, if you want to look there. Oh, and you should listen to good recordings too eg Mick Moloney, Paul Kelly etc. You could check out albums by Kevin Mcleod, Dagger Gordon, Shooglenifty etc for Scottish music.
I look at the Cafe quite regularly John but I get a bit bored with the mine cost more than yours attitude. I've never really come across that anywhere else.
I don't know about Bluegrass sheetmusic sites, plenty of lyrics ones about, but it's worth going to Co-mando.com (remember the hyphen) and downloading the tabledit files. The viewer is free and you can slow it down. Loads of bluegrass tunes. Loads of ITM tunes too but I can never get their arrangements to sound OK. I use a lot of triplets too John, I find that combining triplets with hammerons/pulloffs can sound good. I virtually never use tremelo unless I'm playing for a singer.
What else? Usualyy play my Moon with lightish strings, I like it to ring, and a very heavy plectrum.
I've been playing mandolin for a couple of years. I started out trying to teach myself, but later took some lessons and went to some workshops. I guess the main thing I've picked up for ITM on mandolin is to stress the down beats instead of picking everything even. The most common ornament, of course, would be the triplet. I also try hammer-ons and pull-offs, with some slides, but mostly triplets. It can also be nice to hit a couple of strings at once (sort of a double stop).
I started out mostly alternating pick direction. However, when I, for example, play a note with a down stroke on one string followed by a note of the next string down, I find it hard to do an upstroke on the next string down (if this makes any sense). In other words, this situation would be two down strokes in a row. Most instructors I've had would say do an upstroke on the lower string anyway.
I find it just as easy to do a heavy accent on an up stroke as a down stroke, so I tend to pick jigs with alternating strokes. Most others tend to stress doing jigs with a DUD DUD pattern so as to get an accent on the "4th" note in the measure with a down stroke. I think the most important thing is the sound, with accents on the important notes, not which direction you pick those important notes, but others will stress the only way to get the proper feel of a jig is with the DUD DUD pattern.
I think a lot of the picking patterns suggested for ITM come from the way the instructor was tought. I've been told constantly that "the only way to get the proper accent of a jig is to use the DUD DUD pattern." These same instructors have not been able to fully explain why you can't get an accent on an upstroke. When more than one good player has more than one way of doing something, there can't be only one way to do it! I'm not saying I'm that good of a player, but I find subconciously worrying about what picking pattern I'm using to be more distracting and prone to mistake than just playing with whatever picking pattern comes naturally to me.
I find listening to a lot of ITM, whether mandolin or anything else, is most useful in developing the feel/swing/lilt/whatever you call it. You can alter the feel with triplets on the down beat or on the off beat. Most lesson tend to suggest that, due to the very short sustain of a mandolin, it helps to fill out the sound with triplets or some other ornament on longer notes. Personally, I don't like to overdo triplets. Otherwise, every tune starts to sound like an endless series of triplets. There is often beauty in NOT filling every pause in the music with something.
Dave, As with any other instrument in Irish traditional music, the key is to listen. However, it's tough finding ITM CDs where you can clearly hear what the mandolin is doing. Two in particular are good:
"The Mandolin Album", by Paul Kelly
"Strings Attached", by Mick Moloney
There's also nice cameo mandolin efforts such as Paul Brady playing on The Earl's Chair on Kevin Burke's "If the Cap Fits" (part of the incredibly long set that makes up the second half of the CD) and Claudine Langille's playing on Touchstone's "Jealousy." Kieran Hanrahan mostly plays the banjo, but you can hear some of his mandolin work on the first two Stockton's Wing albums.
Andy Irvine is a master of the mandolin (and other instruments,) but he blends it in very well with the music of whatever group he's playing with, and again it's sometimes tough to figure out what he's doing. For "Irish-style" song accompaniment, listen to "Pat Reilly" and "The Blacksmith" on the first Planxty album (called "Planxty"), and various tunes and songs on the Patrick Street albums.
Banjo recordings are generally much more abundant, and some would argue the technique is pretty much the same for both instruments in terms of ornamentation and rhythm. Try listening to Mick Moloney's banjo work on "Strings Attached" or to Kevin Griffin on "Traditional Music from Doolin". If this sounds like the way you'ld like to tackle the mandolin, then you could do worse than buying Sully's banjo tutors. There is a mandolin tutor published by Walton's Music, but I have reservations about it personally.
It's a matter of taste, of course, but be aware that bluegrass-style mandolin chording during sessions will often get the hairy eyeball from the other players.
I couldn't play jigs without sticking to the DUD-DUD pattern, but I know others can, and more power to them! Many people talk about clever picking patterns on reels to take advantage of notes on adjacent strings and so on, but I've never been able to progress beyond a straight DUDU-DUDU pattern.
Where I'm at, there's an abundance of mandolins in the ITM setting and, even though we are also in an area of bluegrass and old-time, the ITM mandolin takes the melody and stays away from those bluegrass chords.
Strings Attached is already recommended, so I will say that Aidan Crossey's recordings are worth the effort. They can be purchased through
Being self taught on mandolin I never really thought about the DUDU thing , and "ghost" picking ( purposely missing the string on the upstroke, in order to downstroke it) til it was recently pointed out to me, (I,ve been alternating my plucks for years, apparently classical players use this technique) .As mentioned before the accents should fit the phrasing whatever way you pick it.I, ve been working on my picking since that and I,m not so sure there,s a right or wrong way, as long as one sticks to the rules of the tune. I do think though that learning all picking techniques should be the goal . Happy Pluckin,
I mentioned having reservations about the Walton's Music mandolin tutor above. I should probably elaborate, in fairness.
This was the book by Padraig O'Carroll. It's actually a fair starter book, but I came to it after being already familiar with music reading and finding my way around the mandolin fingerboard. I suppose I'd been hoping for a little more depth in the discussion on ornamentation. His discussion (or lack of it) on pick direction left me scratching my head.
However, if you're starting to learn the basics and/or are new to ITM, it's OK.
When playing a tune on my mandolin sometimes if I feel I'm losing control of the tune, which happens occasionaly, I find if I concentrate on my pick direction, ( I'm a DUDUDUD ), I can restore control get back on an even keel.
Davetnova: "I suppose what I really was looking for is what makes your ITM mandolin playing ITM rather than say Scots?"
I cannot answer that question, as I haven't heard all that many Scots mandolin players. Just this evening, I was given a tape of Dagger Gordon, so perhaps after listening to that I will have a better idea.
In fact, like you, I don't get to hear a lot of mandolin players at all. I have been playing for about 10 years, 7 of which have been dedicated almost exclusively to Irish music, and I have picked up as much of my music from fiddlers, pipers, flute players, and box players as from banjo and mandolin players.
Like Mandobrynley, I had never given much thought to picking technique until the last year or so. Since then I have attempted to 'regulate' my picking to stricter patterns (DUDU for reels and DUD DUD for jigs). The knock-on effect was to completely disrupt my playing - I stayed away from sessions for about a week-and-a-half and practised, then, when I went out to a session again, I could hardly string a dozen notes together. But, a year and a bit later, I think I am feeling the benefits.
Personally, I use quite a lot of triplet-type ornaments, and never any hammer-ons or pull-offs. When I started out, the single-note triplet was the only kind of ornament I knew, and seemd to come fairly naturally, so it became my staple. I have since found ways of varying these, such as changing the middle note of the three to a note a tone or a 3rd (or occasionally a 4th) above, or a semitone below.
The basic picked triplet can be put to all sorts of other uses. It can be effective when it spans two successive notes in a tune. For example, in a reel, GABd could be played: GA (3BBd.
'Filling in' thirds with triplet runs can give a tune a more flowing feel - the above phrase could be played: GA (3Bcd.
I also have a little pseudo-cran-type ornament I use in jigs on a low D. For example, DED D3 can be played D(3FED D3.
David's comments reminded me of the different types of triplets. One that adds a rhythmic effect is to slightly lift the finger of the left hand on the fret for the middle note of a triplet. You don't lift the finger all the way off the string, just release a little pressure. You get kind of a "clear note -- thud -- clear note" effect, which when done at speed, can sometimes sound nice and break the monotony of too many triplets. Another way instead of lifting the finger on the fretted note is to use another finger to slightly touch the string you are plucking in the middle of a triplet.
I believe Dan Beinborn does a triplet which consists of a picked note, a hammer-on/pull-off second note, and then another picked note at the original pitch.
Well as far as Scottish mandolin I'm a great fan of Dagger Gordon. And Kevin Mcleod and Shooglenifty(although I must admit to not being fond of the Armsdealers Daughter) all of them have a distinctly Scottish feel, that may be why I don't like the Armsdealer it's an Australian (that is not meant to be racist).
As mentioned many people transfer Tenot Banjo style to mandolin but to me that loses so much of the mandolins character and sounds like what it is a banjo player playing mandolin. If you listen to someone like Kevin M (see above) his tenor banjo playing and his mandolin playing have a completely different feel/style to each other and I'm looking for something similar here. I'll try and get some of the albums above and see if they have it. Idon't want to be a banjo player with a spare set of strings.
I had to sign off prematurely yesterday. Stretching one's studenthood is a great way to get free internet access, but it does mean that you are at the whims of the dreaded switcher-offer.
I could go on describing different types of triplet ornament. However, I think I made my point. What I would say next to Davetnova, and anyone else foolish enough to take any notice of me is, ignore everything I've said. Like Jiml says, the best way to learn is to listen to lots of ITM (or whatever music you want to play). The more you immerse yourself in the music, the deeper it will become embedded in you, and become entwined with and shaped by your inner consciousness. Once the music is in there, it will find a way of coming out. The more you play, the more your technical competence will increase. As the years go on, you will be able to use the 'technique' you have acquired to find ways of transferring whatever music is in your head (or you heart, or your bones, or you gut, or wherever it resides) to your instrument. Thus you will discover your own forms of ornamentation, variation etc., which I would never have thought of.
Larsheen - That doesn't sound like rubbish. But, unlike you, I started off using a relatively loose picking pattern for jigs, sometimes using downstrokes, sometimes upstrokes on strong beats, depending on what went before it. This often landed me in awkward situations, where I found myself in UDU-phase when I wanted to be in DUD-phase, and had to struggle to get myself back on track. Since adopting a (more-or-less) DUD DUD pattern, I run into these problems far less often. It doesn't quite make sense - it would seem to be a less ergonomical way of playing - but it does seem to be easier overall. Incidentally, I can't judge whether my playing actually sounds better, but it seems to get *noticed* more often than it used to, before 'the change'.
Re: Shooglenifty
I have always thought Shooglenifty were a bit of a waste of good music. Angus Grant (fiddle) and Ian M. MacDonald (mandolin) are both great players and tune composers, but they always seem to be way down in the mix, behind the drums, bass and trippy sound effects. Luke Plumb, the new mandolin man, is a fine player, but it's a different kind of music - a bit too cerebral for my liking.
Are rolls executed in the same manner as fiddle ?
I've been having a shot, and the sound of the note dies so early, that it's more like a fresh-air roll !
Anybody out there fingerpick mandolin? Is it just not done? Reason I'm asking is that I'm coming to the mandolin from a guitar background, and I've never used a pick for guitar - I trained as a classical guitarist for years. I tend to use a 'thumb and index finger' technique for lead lines, so I find using a pick at this stage in the game pretty damn tricky. It feels more natural to me to transfer my finger technique from the guitar. It's still kinda messy as I'm getting used to the tiny neck and different tuning, but eventually it could sound OK. Just wondered if you guys think I'm wasting my time and should be concentrating on working with a pick?
You get finger styles for the 5 string banjo, of course, and I suppose it's possible to do it on mandolin. However, I'd imagine it would be very rare and I can't see any benefit in such a method for playing Irish music.
Mickey Cochrane has written a whole website about finger picking mandolin, google on him to find it. I haven't studied it but it looks quite detailed. The bit I read said he (Mickey) once played a Scottish tune for Sean Connery when he (Mickey) worked at a restaurant in Texas and big Tam (Sean) approved, "being well-versed in the role of mandolin in Scottish music". Who'da thunk it? Perhaps he does a Scottish turn on mando at the golf club in Marbella.
I've fooled around with it now and then - it's actually very appropriate for Irish harp tunes John, but would take a lot more work than I was prepared to put in to do it properly.
I have done it onstage when backing a singer on certain tunes, which to be honest probably didn't need mandolin at all, but it was a softer, different sort of tone and seemed to work well. I was standing there so had to look busy doing something.
Ry Cooder used to do his mandolin showpiece "Billy the Kid" fingerstyle with rasguedos etc, sans plectrum when he played solo gigs, back when I saw him that is.
BegF - 5-note rolls are apparently possible on the mandolin, using a combination of picking, pull-offs and hammer-ons, as I remember Dan Beimborn describing his way of doing it in a discussion at Mandolincafe. But they are not a staple of Irish mandolin style in the way that they are for fiddling or piping. You would need a mandolin with quite low action for them to be effective.
Re: FIngerpickingy the same
A couple of years ago, I came upon an old issue of Guitar and Mandolin Magazine, from about 1980. The main point of interest for me was an interview with Mick Moloney, but it also had in it sheet music of some tune arranged for fingerpicking mandolin. I think this was a regular feature in the magazine.
The main example I can think of for fingerstyle style mando was a fiddler/ classical guitarist called Mike Ward who used to play with the Tannahill Weavers.
He had a band called Alba with the late Tony Cuffe and Sean O'Rourke(JSD) where they did quite a bit of gentle stringy stuff on guitar (Tony), bouzouki (Sean) and fingerstyle mando (Mike). I haven't heard it for years, but I thought it was good. They made an album which is perhaps still available.
I don't think he bothers with it much now though. Haven't seen him for years, but was mostly playing fiddle. Don't know what he's doing nowadays.
Regarding the dud dud vs dududu jig pattern, i think dud dud is to emphasize the pulses (1st and 4th beat).
I am a new and so far self-taught mandolin player, but i have done Irish rhythm guitar before, and had found that emphasizing in the 1st and 4th beats actually weakined the jig-ness of my playing, making it sound almost as a reel, and i was much better off emphasizing the 1st and 3rd beats.
Could this tecnique be acceptable on the mandolin, and if so would a dududu picking pattern be adequete?
Kind of an old discussion but I wanted to mention another finger picking mandolinist; Kenny Hall. Kenny played fiddle as well. He used a bowl-backed mandolin and held it vertically, similar to a cello. His finger nails were usually quite worn! Kenny was blind from birth.
Kenny died a few years ago... His recordings define American Old Time music in my opinion.
I say to use a thick jazz type pick, with beveled edges for speed. I like Dunlop 207 jazz-tones. A pointed pick sounds brighter than a rounded edge, and more thickness brings more volume and better tone.
Picking jigs and shuffles are tough, harder then bowing for sure. All the above suggestions are valid, I'll add that right hand patterns practiced against scales are a good idea. Octaves, up and down, back and forth, adding ornamentation, skipping notes, in every imaginable way including exactly opposite! Using a metronome while counting aloud, then create new variations by changing one thing at a time. Picking patterns, and string changes with the right hand, left hand leaving all fingers down until they need be moved, anchoring one finger through a whole practice. Change up the time signature, speed.
Music paper has 12 lines, one for each key. My last teacher had me write overlapping arpeggios of 3 or 4 notes; the root, 3rd, 5th, 3rd, 5th, R, 5th, R, 3rd, etc. in four octaves, to be played backwards and forwards. Then omitting certain notes, adding dots or ties to the ones left, just to make sure I was still counting! Then add a fourth note to the arpeggio drill so each new page of 12 keys becomes a study of an extended chord and it's inversions, in every key. There are 12 types of chords within the first octave, think minor, major, diminished, augmented, 6th, adding a 7th. Then the extended chords add 6 more variables; 9th, 11th, or 13th, flatted or natural. Writing the extended arpeggios using 4 notes requires omitting one note, usually the root or 5th. Mandolin!?
I learned this method from a very very good jazz pianist, and it is described as "how to study for improvisation" in the forward of a Berklee music school textbook. It works for many obvious reasons, with the end goal being able to play any genre of music without a recognizable style of your own.
Mandolin Technique
Mandolin Technique
I play mostly mandolin, have done for about four years, play a lot of jigs and reels and love it. But I rarely get to hear other mandolin players in an ITM setting. I'm talking live music rather than recorded.
What picking/embellishment - oh what the hell just talk about how you play.
(Please)
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Davetnova
Re: Mandolin Technique
I am not sure anything I Have to say about playing technique's would be helpfull, As you have played for longer than me
( sorry ). I looked at your profile and see that you are trying a bit of bluegrass, Can you recommend / or know any bluegrass sites with sheet music please ?
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by dean24
Re: Mandolin Technique
I've been playing a bit longer than that but, of course, it doesn't mean that I'm likely to be be any better. Also, I don't play Irish music exclusively--I'm just getting into the "better tunes" lately. I also play the fiddle etc so I'm probably not quite as focused on mandolin playing as I could be considering the number of years I've been playing.
Having said that, I generally make much more use of triplets while playing tunes on the mandolin but there's no hard and fast rule- just what feels right at the time. Other than that, some of the fiddle techniques can be transferred e.g grace notes, rolls etc but I'll also use "hammer on" and "pull off" effects too. To get a fuller sound, I'll use adjacent strings as "drones" and include unisons, chords etc from time to time. It just depends on the tune and the context in which I'm playing. In a fast and furious session, I have to keep things a lot simpler.
There are good discussions about this on Mandolin Cafe, if you want to look there. Oh, and you should listen to good recordings too eg Mick Moloney, Paul Kelly etc. You could check out albums by Kevin Mcleod, Dagger Gordon, Shooglenifty etc for Scottish music.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by John J.
Re: Mandolin Technique
I look at the Cafe quite regularly John but I get a bit bored with the mine cost more than yours attitude. I've never really come across that anywhere else.
I don't know about Bluegrass sheetmusic sites, plenty of lyrics ones about, but it's worth going to Co-mando.com (remember the hyphen) and downloading the tabledit files. The viewer is free and you can slow it down. Loads of bluegrass tunes. Loads of ITM tunes too but I can never get their arrangements to sound OK. I use a lot of triplets too John, I find that combining triplets with hammerons/pulloffs can sound good. I virtually never use tremelo unless I'm playing for a singer.
What else? Usualyy play my Moon with lightish strings, I like it to ring, and a very heavy plectrum.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Davetnova
Re: Mandolin Technique
I suppose what I really was looking for is what makes your ITM mandolin playing ITM rather than say Scots?
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Davetnova
Re: Mandolin Technique
I've been playing mandolin for a couple of years. I started out trying to teach myself, but later took some lessons and went to some workshops. I guess the main thing I've picked up for ITM on mandolin is to stress the down beats instead of picking everything even. The most common ornament, of course, would be the triplet. I also try hammer-ons and pull-offs, with some slides, but mostly triplets. It can also be nice to hit a couple of strings at once (sort of a double stop).
I started out mostly alternating pick direction. However, when I, for example, play a note with a down stroke on one string followed by a note of the next string down, I find it hard to do an upstroke on the next string down (if this makes any sense). In other words, this situation would be two down strokes in a row. Most instructors I've had would say do an upstroke on the lower string anyway.
I find it just as easy to do a heavy accent on an up stroke as a down stroke, so I tend to pick jigs with alternating strokes. Most others tend to stress doing jigs with a DUD DUD pattern so as to get an accent on the "4th" note in the measure with a down stroke. I think the most important thing is the sound, with accents on the important notes, not which direction you pick those important notes, but others will stress the only way to get the proper feel of a jig is with the DUD DUD pattern.
I think a lot of the picking patterns suggested for ITM come from the way the instructor was tought. I've been told constantly that "the only way to get the proper accent of a jig is to use the DUD DUD pattern." These same instructors have not been able to fully explain why you can't get an accent on an upstroke. When more than one good player has more than one way of doing something, there can't be only one way to do it! I'm not saying I'm that good of a player, but I find subconciously worrying about what picking pattern I'm using to be more distracting and prone to mistake than just playing with whatever picking pattern comes naturally to me.
I find listening to a lot of ITM, whether mandolin or anything else, is most useful in developing the feel/swing/lilt/whatever you call it. You can alter the feel with triplets on the down beat or on the off beat. Most lesson tend to suggest that, due to the very short sustain of a mandolin, it helps to fill out the sound with triplets or some other ornament on longer notes. Personally, I don't like to overdo triplets. Otherwise, every tune starts to sound like an endless series of triplets. There is often beauty in NOT filling every pause in the music with something.
Anyway, sorry for rambling on.
Jim L
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Jiml
Re: Mandolin Technique
Dave, As with any other instrument in Irish traditional music, the key is to listen. However, it's tough finding ITM CDs where you can clearly hear what the mandolin is doing. Two in particular are good:
"The Mandolin Album", by Paul Kelly
"Strings Attached", by Mick Moloney
There's also nice cameo mandolin efforts such as Paul Brady playing on The Earl's Chair on Kevin Burke's "If the Cap Fits" (part of the incredibly long set that makes up the second half of the CD) and Claudine Langille's playing on Touchstone's "Jealousy." Kieran Hanrahan mostly plays the banjo, but you can hear some of his mandolin work on the first two Stockton's Wing albums.
Andy Irvine is a master of the mandolin (and other instruments,) but he blends it in very well with the music of whatever group he's playing with, and again it's sometimes tough to figure out what he's doing. For "Irish-style" song accompaniment, listen to "Pat Reilly" and "The Blacksmith" on the first Planxty album (called "Planxty"), and various tunes and songs on the Patrick Street albums.
Banjo recordings are generally much more abundant, and some would argue the technique is pretty much the same for both instruments in terms of ornamentation and rhythm. Try listening to Mick Moloney's banjo work on "Strings Attached" or to Kevin Griffin on "Traditional Music from Doolin". If this sounds like the way you'ld like to tackle the mandolin, then you could do worse than buying Sully's banjo tutors. There is a mandolin tutor published by Walton's Music, but I have reservations about it personally.
It's a matter of taste, of course, but be aware that bluegrass-style mandolin chording during sessions will often get the hairy eyeball from the other players.
I couldn't play jigs without sticking to the DUD-DUD pattern, but I know others can, and more power to them! Many people talk about clever picking patterns on reels to take advantage of notes on adjacent strings and so on, but I've never been able to progress beyond a straight DUDU-DUDU pattern.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by grego
Re: Mandolin Technique
Where I'm at, there's an abundance of mandolins in the ITM setting and, even though we are also in an area of bluegrass and old-time, the ITM mandolin takes the melody and stays away from those bluegrass chords.
Strings Attached is already recommended, so I will say that Aidan Crossey's recordings are worth the effort. They can be purchased through
www.paythereckoning.com
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by SanFranMando
Re: Mandolin Technique
I've found this site useful.
http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/mando/tut1.html
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Robby B.
Re: Mandolin Technique
Larsheen: "... his first recording with Inchiquin." I'm not familiar with that group. Can you tell me the name of the recording?
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by grego
Re: Mandolin Technique
Try http://www.jaybuckey.com/ for free bluegrass sheet music.
Jim
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Mandolin Technique
Being self taught on mandolin I never really thought about the DUDU thing , and "ghost" picking ( purposely missing the string on the upstroke, in order to downstroke it) til it was recently pointed out to me, (I,ve been alternating my plucks for years, apparently classical players use this technique) .As mentioned before the accents should fit the phrasing whatever way you pick it.I, ve been working on my picking since that and I,m not so sure there,s a right or wrong way, as long as one sticks to the rules of the tune. I do think though that learning all picking techniques should be the goal . Happy Pluckin,
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by mandobrynley
Padraig O'Carroll's Book
I mentioned having reservations about the Walton's Music mandolin tutor above. I should probably elaborate, in fairness.
This was the book by Padraig O'Carroll. It's actually a fair starter book, but I came to it after being already familiar with music reading and finding my way around the mandolin fingerboard. I suppose I'd been hoping for a little more depth in the discussion on ornamentation. His discussion (or lack of it) on pick direction left me scratching my head.
However, if you're starting to learn the basics and/or are new to ITM, it's OK.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by grego
Re: Mandolin Technique
When playing a tune on my mandolin sometimes if I feel I'm losing control of the tune, which happens occasionaly, I find if I concentrate on my pick direction, ( I'm a DUDUDUD ), I can restore control get back on an even keel.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Justintime
Re: Mandolin Technique
Davetnova: "I suppose what I really was looking for is what makes your ITM mandolin playing ITM rather than say Scots?"
I cannot answer that question, as I haven't heard all that many Scots mandolin players. Just this evening, I was given a tape of Dagger Gordon, so perhaps after listening to that I will have a better idea.
In fact, like you, I don't get to hear a lot of mandolin players at all. I have been playing for about 10 years, 7 of which have been dedicated almost exclusively to Irish music, and I have picked up as much of my music from fiddlers, pipers, flute players, and box players as from banjo and mandolin players.
Like Mandobrynley, I had never given much thought to picking technique until the last year or so. Since then I have attempted to 'regulate' my picking to stricter patterns (DUDU for reels and DUD DUD for jigs). The knock-on effect was to completely disrupt my playing - I stayed away from sessions for about a week-and-a-half and practised, then, when I went out to a session again, I could hardly string a dozen notes together. But, a year and a bit later, I think I am feeling the benefits.
Personally, I use quite a lot of triplet-type ornaments, and never any hammer-ons or pull-offs. When I started out, the single-note triplet was the only kind of ornament I knew, and seemd to come fairly naturally, so it became my staple. I have since found ways of varying these, such as changing the middle note of the three to a note a tone or a 3rd (or occasionally a 4th) above, or a semitone below.
The basic picked triplet can be put to all sorts of other uses. It can be effective when it spans two successive notes in a tune. For example, in a reel, GABd could be played: GA (3BBd.
'Filling in' thirds with triplet runs can give a tune a more flowing feel - the above phrase could be played: GA (3Bcd.
I also have a little pseudo-cran-type ornament I use in jigs on a low D. For example, DED D3 can be played D(3FED D3.
They're turning off the computers. Gotta Go!
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Mandolin Technique
David's comments reminded me of the different types of triplets. One that adds a rhythmic effect is to slightly lift the finger of the left hand on the fret for the middle note of a triplet. You don't lift the finger all the way off the string, just release a little pressure. You get kind of a "clear note -- thud -- clear note" effect, which when done at speed, can sometimes sound nice and break the monotony of too many triplets. Another way instead of lifting the finger on the fretted note is to use another finger to slightly touch the string you are plucking in the middle of a triplet.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Jiml
Re: Mandolin Technique
That's a nice effect on the banjo, too, Jiml. Someone showed me that about a month ago, but I haven't managed to incorporate it into any tunes yet.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by grego
Re: Mandolin Technique
I tend to do alternitive storkes, and however my hand ends up at the end of a tiplet or 1st part of a tune, I will then do alternitive to that.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Trad Girl
Re: Mandolin Technique
I believe Dan Beinborn does a triplet which consists of a picked note, a hammer-on/pull-off second note, and then another picked note at the original pitch.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by s1m0n
Re: Mandolin Technique
Thanks Larsheen, though I'm a little disappointed I'll not get to hear it!
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by grego
Re: Mandolin Technique
Well as far as Scottish mandolin I'm a great fan of Dagger Gordon. And Kevin Mcleod and Shooglenifty(although I must admit to not being fond of the Armsdealers Daughter) all of them have a distinctly Scottish feel, that may be why I don't like the Armsdealer it's an Australian (that is not meant to be racist).
As mentioned many people transfer Tenot Banjo style to mandolin but to me that loses so much of the mandolins character and sounds like what it is a banjo player playing mandolin. If you listen to someone like Kevin M (see above) his tenor banjo playing and his mandolin playing have a completely different feel/style to each other and I'm looking for something similar here. I'll try and get some of the albums above and see if they have it. Idon't want to be a banjo player with a spare set of strings.
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Davetnova
Re: Mandolin Technique
I had to sign off prematurely yesterday. Stretching one's studenthood is a great way to get free internet access, but it does mean that you are at the whims of the dreaded switcher-offer.
I could go on describing different types of triplet ornament. However, I think I made my point. What I would say next to Davetnova, and anyone else foolish enough to take any notice of me is, ignore everything I've said. Like Jiml says, the best way to learn is to listen to lots of ITM (or whatever music you want to play). The more you immerse yourself in the music, the deeper it will become embedded in you, and become entwined with and shaped by your inner consciousness. Once the music is in there, it will find a way of coming out. The more you play, the more your technical competence will increase. As the years go on, you will be able to use the 'technique' you have acquired to find ways of transferring whatever music is in your head (or you heart, or your bones, or you gut, or wherever it resides) to your instrument. Thus you will discover your own forms of ornamentation, variation etc., which I would never have thought of.
Larsheen - That doesn't sound like rubbish. But, unlike you, I started off using a relatively loose picking pattern for jigs, sometimes using downstrokes, sometimes upstrokes on strong beats, depending on what went before it. This often landed me in awkward situations, where I found myself in UDU-phase when I wanted to be in DUD-phase, and had to struggle to get myself back on track. Since adopting a (more-or-less) DUD DUD pattern, I run into these problems far less often. It doesn't quite make sense - it would seem to be a less ergonomical way of playing - but it does seem to be easier overall. Incidentally, I can't judge whether my playing actually sounds better, but it seems to get *noticed* more often than it used to, before 'the change'.
Re: Shooglenifty
I have always thought Shooglenifty were a bit of a waste of good music. Angus Grant (fiddle) and Ian M. MacDonald (mandolin) are both great players and tune composers, but they always seem to be way down in the mix, behind the drums, bass and trippy sound effects. Luke Plumb, the new mandolin man, is a fine player, but it's a different kind of music - a bit too cerebral for my liking.
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Mandolin Technique
Are rolls executed in the same manner as fiddle ?
I've been having a shot, and the sound of the note dies so early, that it's more like a fresh-air roll !
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by BegF
Re: Mandolin Technique
Thanks. No 5 note rolls then ?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by BegF
Re: Mandolin Technique
I would be extremely careful about using Dan beinborn's triplet technique as described by s1m0n. Look ere at what could happen: http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=1fcde70fbfebea0d75f7120f8c3c3944;act=ST;f=5;t=20111
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Bren
Re: Mandolin Technique
Anybody out there fingerpick mandolin? Is it just not done? Reason I'm asking is that I'm coming to the mandolin from a guitar background, and I've never used a pick for guitar - I trained as a classical guitarist for years. I tend to use a 'thumb and index finger' technique for lead lines, so I find using a pick at this stage in the game pretty damn tricky. It feels more natural to me to transfer my finger technique from the guitar. It's still kinda messy as I'm getting used to the tiny neck and different tuning, but eventually it could sound OK. Just wondered if you guys think I'm wasting my time and should be concentrating on working with a pick?
Cheers,
K.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by kidcharlemagne
Re: Mandolin Technique
I was thinking that as well, I fingerpick guitar, but doesn't sound so good on mandalin, maybe that's just me.
Any advice for the beginner on the mandolin ?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by BegF
Re: Mandolin Technique
You get finger styles for the 5 string banjo, of course, and I suppose it's possible to do it on mandolin. However, I'd imagine it would be very rare and I can't see any benefit in such a method for playing Irish music.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by John J.
Re: Mandolin Technique
Mickey Cochrane has written a whole website about finger picking mandolin, google on him to find it. I haven't studied it but it looks quite detailed. The bit I read said he (Mickey) once played a Scottish tune for Sean Connery when he (Mickey) worked at a restaurant in Texas and big Tam (Sean) approved, "being well-versed in the role of mandolin in Scottish music". Who'da thunk it? Perhaps he does a Scottish turn on mando at the golf club in Marbella.
I've fooled around with it now and then - it's actually very appropriate for Irish harp tunes John, but would take a lot more work than I was prepared to put in to do it properly.
I have done it onstage when backing a singer on certain tunes, which to be honest probably didn't need mandolin at all, but it was a softer, different sort of tone and seemed to work well. I was standing there so had to look busy doing something.
Ry Cooder used to do his mandolin showpiece "Billy the Kid" fingerstyle with rasguedos etc, sans plectrum when he played solo gigs, back when I saw him that is.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Bren
Re: Mandolin Technique
BegF - 5-note rolls are apparently possible on the mandolin, using a combination of picking, pull-offs and hammer-ons, as I remember Dan Beimborn describing his way of doing it in a discussion at Mandolincafe. But they are not a staple of Irish mandolin style in the way that they are for fiddling or piping. You would need a mandolin with quite low action for them to be effective.
Re: FIngerpickingy the same
A couple of years ago, I came upon an old issue of Guitar and Mandolin Magazine, from about 1980. The main point of interest for me was an interview with Mick Moloney, but it also had in it sheet music of some tune arranged for fingerpicking mandolin. I think this was a regular feature in the magazine.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Mandolin Technique
The main example I can think of for fingerstyle style mando was a fiddler/ classical guitarist called Mike Ward who used to play with the Tannahill Weavers.
He had a band called Alba with the late Tony Cuffe and Sean O'Rourke(JSD) where they did quite a bit of gentle stringy stuff on guitar (Tony), bouzouki (Sean) and fingerstyle mando (Mike). I haven't heard it for years, but I thought it was good. They made an album which is perhaps still available.
I don't think he bothers with it much now though. Haven't seen him for years, but was mostly playing fiddle. Don't know what he's doing nowadays.
Cheers,
Dagger Gordon.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by CWGordon
Re: Mandolin Technique
Regarding the dud dud vs dududu jig pattern, i think dud dud is to emphasize the pulses (1st and 4th beat).
I am a new and so far self-taught mandolin player, but i have done Irish rhythm guitar before, and had found that emphasizing in the 1st and 4th beats actually weakined the jig-ness of my playing, making it sound almost as a reel, and i was much better off emphasizing the 1st and 3rd beats.
Could this tecnique be acceptable on the mandolin, and if so would a dududu picking pattern be adequete?
Kjay
# Posted on May 17th 2005 by kjay_bc_box
Re: finger picking Mandolin Technique
Kind of an old discussion but I wanted to mention another finger picking mandolinist; Kenny Hall. Kenny played fiddle as well. He used a bowl-backed mandolin and held it vertically, similar to a cello. His finger nails were usually quite worn! Kenny was blind from birth.
Kenny died a few years ago... His recordings define American Old Time music in my opinion.
I say to use a thick jazz type pick, with beveled edges for speed. I like Dunlop 207 jazz-tones. A pointed pick sounds brighter than a rounded edge, and more thickness brings more volume and better tone.
Picking jigs and shuffles are tough, harder then bowing for sure. All the above suggestions are valid, I'll add that right hand patterns practiced against scales are a good idea. Octaves, up and down, back and forth, adding ornamentation, skipping notes, in every imaginable way including exactly opposite! Using a metronome while counting aloud, then create new variations by changing one thing at a time. Picking patterns, and string changes with the right hand, left hand leaving all fingers down until they need be moved, anchoring one finger through a whole practice. Change up the time signature, speed.
Music paper has 12 lines, one for each key. My last teacher had me write overlapping arpeggios of 3 or 4 notes; the root, 3rd, 5th, 3rd, 5th, R, 5th, R, 3rd, etc. in four octaves, to be played backwards and forwards. Then omitting certain notes, adding dots or ties to the ones left, just to make sure I was still counting! Then add a fourth note to the arpeggio drill so each new page of 12 keys becomes a study of an extended chord and it's inversions, in every key. There are 12 types of chords within the first octave, think minor, major, diminished, augmented, 6th, adding a 7th. Then the extended chords add 6 more variables; 9th, 11th, or 13th, flatted or natural. Writing the extended arpeggios using 4 notes requires omitting one note, usually the root or 5th. Mandolin!?
I learned this method from a very very good jazz pianist, and it is described as "how to study for improvisation" in the forward of a Berklee music school textbook. It works for many obvious reasons, with the end goal being able to play any genre of music without a recognizable style of your own.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by davidblair