My sister plays fiddle,I play flute and whistles. She doesn't practice much,but she's in my band and won't leave,and I'd like her to be able to do rolls. I've tried to teach her,but it hasn't really worked. She will try it,but they don't sound right. The note she's rolling seems to slide all over the place. Can you fiddlers give me any tips I can pass along?
Thank you!
-Kelly
What worked for me was practicing the rolls slow at first, then gradually playing them faster and faster until I got them at the normal speed. It took a couple of weeks to get them down correctly, but now I don't have any problems with them!!
Not to hijack, but I am now a little confused (after reading all the great response from the aforementioned thread)..
When I listen to Burke, he has this great percussive "crunch", no other way to describe it, that I always thought was bowed triplets..those are not rolls he's playing is it?
Kelly ---
Never try teaching a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
;)
In other words, if she doesn't want to learn to play rolls, let her alone. Either she'll get to it in her own good time, or she won't, and either way you can't really force her to do anything. And since she's your sister, you more or less have to live with her. (Says someone with two of 'em.)
Sorry, a paragraph vanished into etherspace.
If she does want to learn 'em, she'll sort it out. See if she'll enroll on the yellow board and get hooked like the rest of us. ;) Lots of good advice here, free.
Sunnybear, Kevin's rolls are pretty percussive, as rolls go, and full of pop. So are his triplets. But his rolls are generally longer than his bowed triplets. If you cite a specific example (e.g. those are rolls you hear on the low E at the start of Rolling in the Barrel), I can probably sort it out for you.
Will..thanks..I pulled out "IN Concert" and cued up "Roll in the Barrel, and yes that is what I am hearing, put for the most part thought it was a real quick flip of the wrist...I could never get it...no wonder...they ARE rolls...very percussive sounding..I like it..
Are there not other ways to ornament a tune? Fiddlemouse hit the pig on the snout. Surely the main thing is that she develops a style of her own and enjoys playing, whether with rolls, ciabattas or beigels.
I can play rolls fine on the flute and pipes but the fiddle just isin't happening for me...I can play various specie of "fake rolls," such as two cuts on B, on the A string. Rolls on open strings are no problem, either, although I don't have enough control to make the two cuts even - which is how I play rolls in reels, on my other instruments. "Whack whack."
Luckily I've read about fiddlers who spent their whole lives playing "fake rolls," so it's, ahem, traditional! In the reels all I can manage right now is a cut or pat, followed by a change in bow direction. This comes out sounding like the pulsing type roll you get on the pipes by lifting the chanter off the knee in the middle of the roll. Doesn't sound too bad but leaving out that other grace note seems vaguely wrong, you know...Anyone out there play rolls this way?
Kevin Burke use (and extensively) triplets and rolls with loads of grace notes. It is this that gives the different effect. Liz Kane can be heard doing the same on her new album.
if she doesnt practice then she shouldnt be bringing you down, 'nuff said. if she practiced hard core and still wasnt as good as you wanted, that would be different. she cant not care 99% of the time and when it comes around for glory care. its just not how it works. if she cant play rolls, o well. if she cares and tries, it doesnt matter how she plays.
Yeah, diddley squat. And what a tedious racket it is. I think fiddlemaouse had it about right with the annoyed pig. I think the problem with people who can't/won't learn how to play rolls is that they have never really listened to them. I've found it's most common with English people who think Dave Swarbrick is a great traditional musician. Now I've nothing against Swarbrick, I think some of the stuff he does with Martin Carthy is fab, it's just that he can't play diddley sqaut
Thanks everyone for your replys. She does want to play rolls,at least as much as she wants to play anything(which isn't much,but as I said she's in my band and won't leave),but she doesn't want to practice.I thought maybe there was something about fiddle rolls that I don't know that if I did I could help her more.Like she would just "get it" and be able to do them without practicing much(yeah right). I remember when I was learning rolls something suddenly clicked and I could do them.
Evolve your band's repertoire so that it's beyond her technical ability. That way, if she wants to keep up, she'll have to practice. Keep it evolving, too. Don't get comfortable. Add four or five tunes a week.
That should take care of the problem, I should think.
Problem is,our repertoire is already beyond her technical ability! The tunes she doesn't know she sort of plays random notes,ocaisionally hitting the right one. The tunes she does know she plays in a very lackluster way,and I thought maybe some nice rolls would help.
Maybe this will help - until I get the video teaching clips on my site, I've put up some audio samples of rolls for fiddle. Each sample consists of the roll being built up note by note, contained within a small tune sample just to try to keep the rolls in context.
Kelly, just how serious is this band of yours? If you're performing for pay, your paying audience deserves to hear something worth listening to, not just someone hitting notes more or less at the same time as everyone else.
If the band isn't very serious and is just for fun, fair play and have at it, but if you guys are serious, then it sounds like a good time to have someone else in the band talk to your sister about either getting serious or gettting out. Try recording yourselves and make sure everyone is easy to hear on the thing. If she's the only one who can't play the tunes, it ought to be fairly obvious even to her.
Yeah,we're performing for pay at a restaurant and at partys and stuff. Fortunately not many people around here know much about ITM,but still. When we have a gig that she considers important,she will practice for maybe half an hour the day before. I think I'm the only one who's really serious about it though. The other two members are more classicly trained and I don't think they listen to much ITM,or really like it that much,they just have fun playing it. I'll try the recording thing,that might help a little.Thanks.
your right michael. boy, i'd sure love to listen to a fiddler who could roll and not play in time or in tune, or even hit the right notes. but boyk, they could roll....
How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
My sister plays fiddle,I play flute and whistles. She doesn't practice much,but she's in my band and won't leave,and I'd like her to be able to do rolls. I've tried to teach her,but it hasn't really worked. She will try it,but they don't sound right. The note she's rolling seems to slide all over the place. Can you fiddlers give me any tips I can pass along?
Thank you!
-Kelly
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by seisflutes
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
What worked for me was practicing the rolls slow at first, then gradually playing them faster and faster until I got them at the normal speed. It took a couple of weeks to get them down correctly, but now I don't have any problems with them!!
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by picking up that fiddle
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Does she *want* to play rolls?
Do a search for rolls here. Lots of detailed tips on how to do them well.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Lots. Lots and lots. Many of lots.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Better yet, do a search for locomotive - it's part of analogy I use to explain the timing of the bits that make up a roll. To wit:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/428/comments#comment5697
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Not to hijack, but I am now a little confused (after reading all the great response from the aforementioned thread)..
When I listen to Burke, he has this great percussive "crunch", no other way to describe it, that I always thought was bowed triplets..those are not rolls he's playing is it?
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Kelly ---
Never try teaching a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
;)
In other words, if she doesn't want to learn to play rolls, let her alone. Either she'll get to it in her own good time, or she won't, and either way you can't really force her to do anything. And since she's your sister, you more or less have to live with her. (Says someone with two of 'em.)
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by sara g
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Sorry, a paragraph vanished into etherspace.
If she does want to learn 'em, she'll sort it out. See if she'll enroll on the yellow board and get hooked like the rest of us. ;) Lots of good advice here, free.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by sara g
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Sunnybear, Kevin's rolls are pretty percussive, as rolls go, and full of pop. So are his triplets. But his rolls are generally longer than his bowed triplets. If you cite a specific example (e.g. those are rolls you hear on the low E at the start of Rolling in the Barrel), I can probably sort it out for you.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Will..thanks..I pulled out "IN Concert" and cued up "Roll in the Barrel, and yes that is what I am hearing, put for the most part thought it was a real quick flip of the wrist...I could never get it...no wonder...they ARE rolls...very percussive sounding..I like it..
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Are there not other ways to ornament a tune? Fiddlemouse hit the pig on the snout. Surely the main thing is that she develops a style of her own and enjoys playing, whether with rolls, ciabattas or beigels.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
I can play rolls fine on the flute and pipes but the fiddle just isin't happening for me...I can play various specie of "fake rolls," such as two cuts on B, on the A string. Rolls on open strings are no problem, either, although I don't have enough control to make the two cuts even - which is how I play rolls in reels, on my other instruments. "Whack whack."
Luckily I've read about fiddlers who spent their whole lives playing "fake rolls," so it's, ahem, traditional! In the reels all I can manage right now is a cut or pat, followed by a change in bow direction. This comes out sounding like the pulsing type roll you get on the pipes by lifting the chanter off the knee in the middle of the roll. Doesn't sound too bad but leaving out that other grace note seems vaguely wrong, you know...Anyone out there play rolls this way?
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by KLR
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Kevin Burke use (and extensively) triplets and rolls with loads of grace notes. It is this that gives the different effect. Liz Kane can be heard doing the same on her new album.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
if she doesnt practice then she shouldnt be bringing you down, 'nuff said. if she practiced hard core and still wasnt as good as you wanted, that would be different. she cant not care 99% of the time and when it comes around for glory care. its just not how it works. if she cant play rolls, o well. if she cares and tries, it doesnt matter how she plays.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by daiv
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
I'm sorry, but rolls are integral, if you don't learn 'em, you can't play diddley. simple as that
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Would it be diddley squat Michael?
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Yeah, diddley squat. And what a tedious racket it is. I think fiddlemaouse had it about right with the annoyed pig. I think the problem with people who can't/won't learn how to play rolls is that they have never really listened to them. I've found it's most common with English people who think Dave Swarbrick is a great traditional musician. Now I've nothing against Swarbrick, I think some of the stuff he does with Martin Carthy is fab, it's just that he can't play diddley sqaut
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Stand behind him or her with a belt and give them a lash every time he or she screws up. Best thing for them, believe me.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Hanley
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
If the belt doesn't work, try a hurley.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Hanley
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Thanks everyone for your replys. She does want to play rolls,at least as much as she wants to play anything(which isn't much,but as I said she's in my band and won't leave),but she doesn't want to practice.I thought maybe there was something about fiddle rolls that I don't know that if I did I could help her more.Like she would just "get it" and be able to do them without practicing much(yeah right). I remember when I was learning rolls something suddenly clicked and I could do them.
-Kelly
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by seisflutes
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Evolve your band's repertoire so that it's beyond her technical ability. That way, if she wants to keep up, she'll have to practice. Keep it evolving, too. Don't get comfortable. Add four or five tunes a week.
That should take care of the problem, I should think.
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Problem is,our repertoire is already beyond her technical ability! The tunes she doesn't know she sort of plays random notes,ocaisionally hitting the right one. The tunes she does know she plays in a very lackluster way,and I thought maybe some nice rolls would help.
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by seisflutes
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Maybe this will help - until I get the video teaching clips on my site, I've put up some audio samples of rolls for fiddle. Each sample consists of the roll being built up note by note, contained within a small tune sample just to try to keep the rolls in context.
Each roll is demo'ed as one audio sample containing 3 or four parts. It's at
http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/rolls.html
Don't forget to read all the relevant rolls stuff mentioned by Will Harmon. It's very important.
Jim
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
...and I should add that, if the full roll proves difficult to play, the 'reduced note' rolls can still be effective.
Jim
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
...and there are two speeds... just likes for the tunes.
Jim
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Kelly, just how serious is this band of yours? If you're performing for pay, your paying audience deserves to hear something worth listening to, not just someone hitting notes more or less at the same time as everyone else.
If the band isn't very serious and is just for fun, fair play and have at it, but if you guys are serious, then it sounds like a good time to have someone else in the band talk to your sister about either getting serious or gettting out. Try recording yourselves and make sure everyone is easy to hear on the thing. If she's the only one who can't play the tunes, it ought to be fairly obvious even to her.
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Yeah,we're performing for pay at a restaurant and at partys and stuff. Fortunately not many people around here know much about ITM,but still. When we have a gig that she considers important,she will practice for maybe half an hour the day before. I think I'm the only one who's really serious about it though. The other two members are more classicly trained and I don't think they listen to much ITM,or really like it that much,they just have fun playing it. I'll try the recording thing,that might help a little.Thanks.
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by seisflutes
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Well, having fun is important too. ;) Anyway, let us know how it all turns out. Good luck!
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
Thanks!
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by seisflutes
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
your right michael. boy, i'd sure love to listen to a fiddler who could roll and not play in time or in tune, or even hit the right notes. but boyk, they could roll....
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by daiv
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
I said "integral' not "be all and end all" you sarky git
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
That's always a hard one - trying to get other musicians into your music when you can't find any that are already into it.
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: How to teach a reluctant fiddler rolls?
^_^
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by daiv