i know this is my second discussion about "help me, im trying to improve"
but wanting to ask about slurs vs. individual note playing
what combinations often works for you on different styles of tune?
i just find that i think i slur too frequently...
like often on a jig i will slur all 3 notes to a bow and on a reel will slur 2 notes to a bow - perhaps needing a bit more individual notes to chuck in
I heard once about a playing style where you change bow only when you change onto a different string. It's probably apocryphal, but nevertheless not a bad bowing exercise to try out occasionally.
Trevor
You often need to bow not in the regular 2 or 3 groups but across the barlines. Not so much a case of more or less individual notes - but where to place them!
it seems to me you are still using too much bow, not too little. But it depends on who you like ofcourse. Martin Hayes tends to bow every note in a jig and (unbelievably) he's well respected
Hi guys. First time posting (be gentle!). I think the bowing debate is all a matter of personal taste. You'll probably be influence by your regional style or of those whom you listen to. I personally suffer from the dreaded disease of classical training and constantly to try and relax my bowing and slur more. But when it comes to staccato triplets i find the stlye really helps. Play away and listen loads is the best advice i could give.
I don't feel happy with being invited to join in slurring an individual, I think it is in bad form, especially as you haven't even given us his name . . . . .
When to slur? On to strong beats. Sometimes across weak beats.
So: slur from the end of one measure onto the downbeat of the next (this is particularly effective in jigs). Slurring across weak beats is what happens in a reel when you slur three notes on an up bow and then down bow the next note.
Most Irish fiddlers rarely repeat patterns of slurs and down bows more than two or three simes in a row--they mix in phrases of single bows.
And Donegal fiddling is rich in well-placed slurs. The "only single bows" thing is a myth. Listen to good Donegal fiddlers - lots of single bows, yes, but not to the exlusion of important slurs.
MICHAEL! You admitted that Martin Hayes is well respected! LOL -- who are you, and what the hell have you done with Michael Gill?!? *smirk* BTW, while Emily and I were at Sebastapol, we heard Martin Hayes and John Doyle blow all our socks off with a remarkable, masterly setting of Star of Munster that had the audience on its feet. If you're not careful, MG, you're going to lose your reputation as Session Curmudgeon. Next thing everyone is going to think you're as cute and cuddly as, say, Q. *grin*
Trev, that's not apocryphal, you heard it from me, and the person who said it was Joan Hanrahan of Ennis. I hasten to add that she followed up her admonition not to change bow direction until you hit a different string with a shrug and an off-hand "unless you do." (Joan gave me my first lesson on the Irish fiddle. She also told me that people try to learn way too many tunes at the beginning, and if they'd just stick with five tunes in the first year, she'd have taught them everything they need to know.)
Anyway, to get to the question... Jimmyoats, Will Harmon is very VERY busy right now, and he's probably one of the best to answer, but I happen to be struggling with bowing issues right now myself. Will and Kevin Bernhagen have both been trying to help me. I think it's good to be able to single bow whatever you like -- if you can keep it smooth, it'll provide a nice clear sound with lots of drive. But as Kevin Burke once told Will (and others), you should be able to bow anything in any way, and have it sound exactly the way you want. You and I, son, are on our toddling steps down that road.
Fun to go back and read the thread that Michael Gill gave you the link to -- I had to drop back out of that conversation (I've been on a long trip out of town to care for my ailing father). We've also lots more discussions on bowing in the archives, do try a search on "bowing" or some such and you'll get an eyefull.
and, BTW, Jode is right in that thread -- Tommy Peoples does NOT flick the fingers during his triplets. I spent no little time with him last he was in town, and Tommy was adamant (for the very soft-spoken Mr. Peoples) that he does not flick the finger to get the triplet, and after watching him play closely for an hour, I would say that he does not. The flick is from the momentum of his bow. Somewhere there's a description of this in the archives, do a search if you're interested.
Greg, Dave is NOT GBS in disguise. For one thing, he's a lot cuter than GBS. ;)
I should have known -- no matter how busy he is, you can always get Will to bite!
BTW, Will, Kevin gave me an exercise -- have you given me this one before? Go through a tune and single bow three notes followed by three slurred notes, and go through the entire tune that way...
Kerri! Hey, chick. What, making up for lost time? Has it been so long that you've forgotten I ALWAYS post this much? *smirk* Anyway, Kevin says that something somebody else told me to try is making my bow twist a bit while I bow, so side to side is def bad in my book.
Another good exercise is to go through the tune a few times with absolutely no slurs. You'll start to hear where the tune wants them. Sorry that's a bit nebulous, but if you've got the tune in your head, you'll hear the absence of the slurs.
Just do what you want. If it sounds the way you want, and it has the nyah, then you're good.
psst.... Does any one have any ideas on how to do that #(*&@!!! measure in The Shetland fiddler eg. AeBe cede.... I'm used to hitting lower strings on the off beats, not higher!!!
Oh, and I think the type of tune demands a different bowing... like that Shetland listening tune I'm working on, Da Full-rigged Ship... I slur everything top try and get that rolling ship feel in full sail.... changing bow only on a beat.... and then when I run into a reel or pretty much any jig, I start single or double bowing the beats. Seems to work. :D
CC, that's good advice for any style--every note counts. The good players make you think each note is the most important thing in the world the moment you're hearing it. But that doesn't mean they all have to be single bowed. You can make any note in a slur stand out simply by varying its volume, tone, and/or articulation.
Just back from a gig, playing tunes for a fundraiser, me on fiddle, Murph on bodhran, and Angie on guitar. Great room for acoustics and an attentive crowd. They stood up and clapped for Toss the Feathers when we were finished with it. And after the fact I realized I'd snuck in some crazy long bows where I'd never done *that* before. But it worked because that's what I was hearing in my mind's ear at the time.
I've said it before but it bears repeating. Bow a tune every which way, inside out and backwards, till you can't come up with another way to do it. And then you'll have all of that in your right hand, at the ready, able to snap out the sound the moment your medulla oblongata thinks of it.
More good advice, Will. So, that'll be in that fiddle book you're writing, correct? That oughta be out sometime soon, yeah? Still waiting with 'bated breath...turning blue...passing out...
Lol, I shouldn't even be checking in here--I'm knotted to the crab pot of work and headed for the briney deep--drowning in deadlines, but none of them for a book on fiddle...yet.
So I'm working overtime, hoping to bank enough hours to take off a month or two this winter and focus on the fiddle book. The first draft is pretty well along, but now I need to bug Zina about her "cd book" idea.
Meanwhile, last year's project is on the shelves. I'm not violating any etiquette here about sel-promotion am I? I mean, it's a history/how-to text book on natural resource decision making. Nobodies gonna read that, right?
Inhale Christine. I *am* working on it, but it won't be a book till next year.
I am a beginner at fiddle. But looking at what Kevin Burke is teaching me via video, it could depend on the song. He is one to say that there is no set style: but he favors thigns such as a slur onto the strong notes and such. in some jigs, as much slur as possible, just to give it a fluty sound. really, I think, whjat you need to do, this is what a great fiddling friend of mine said, is understand the song, and work out the bowing that works with the song. yeah, that's good.
or, you could look into things like "downbowing" if you want a very specific, rythmic sound.
Reading down, 5 tunes for a year is NOT enough for me. I get so sick of it! I practice like 4 hours a day. the only time I make progress really past a certain point is when I'm learning new tunes. breaks up the old set-in habits of the old tunes and broadnes my abilities and all that shite.
Nothing personal,it just conveys nothing to me.Is she laughing,sarcastically,sardonically,at or with someone,sniggering,giggling or chuckling to herself? I suppose LOL is simply one of those phatic utterances.
Wow! I have watched with great interest as the comments pour in reference slurs and single notes. And the absolutes! Important slurs! Slurring across weak beats! What the hell is that about? Important slur!! Discussions are grand and of course this discussion page is great but when contributors start to use terms like “I’ve said it before and it bears repeating” it’s time to run for the hills and especially when we get to hear about “Toss the Feathers” Oh HELLO!!
Let’s cut through the high dudgeon stuff. Playing trad music is very simple but if you want to talk endlessly about technique….well before you know it will be complicated. All fiddler players have to deal with a force of nature otherwise known as gravity. Part of the influence of gravity is that all bowing will be stronger on the downbow unless it has been trained out of you(see above comment re difficulty in playing trad when classically trained.) All tunes can be played in any style but if you want the tune to sound true to its roots it requires either changing the tune or your bowing. For example certain tunes from Donegal/Scottish tradition can be played whatever way you like-who cares- but if you want them to sound a specific way you will need to adjust and a lot of time the tune will itself make you change. Unless of course you are from that region! Tommy Peoples whilst living in Clare might play Clare tunes but will still only use 6-8 ins of bow and if he is slurring with that… Despite what Kevin Burke or anyone else says (and musicians tend to give out abbreviated advice conveniently omitting to mention that your playing is influenced by lots of things), you can practice all you like, but you will end up following your heart when playing or else you are wasting your time. Bowing issues are like plec action on the banjo- down stroke versus upstroke and Kieran Hanrahan said it all when asked about his technique. His reply was that in the end you have to play within yourself. Donegal playing, Clare playing, etc etc. All have a combination of slurs and staccato but the facts are that Donegal fiddling playing consists mainly of single bowing-Cassidy, Doherty, Boyle all being examples and Dermot McGloughlin being the modern example. Joe Burke doesn’t play polkas and John Doherty doesn’t play slides. In the years following the arrival of Michael Colemans 78’s to Ireland and the improvement in communication and travel, regional styles became slightly blurred. However whilst Martin Hayes plays one way on stage and on cd that is not the way he plays when at home with neighbours such as Mary McNamara and his family. You can use all the figure of eight cross bowing technique you like but if you are playing a highland or march then it will sound shi*e but if you want to sound like Coleman and people like Tony deMarco, Conway and others have perfected this, then figure of eight away with you!! This high dictatorial advice is always from people who need to appear important and they would probably better just playing. This would appear to be the case when someone starts to get excited about Toss The Feathers. Like the old comment on the debate after a football match- the best team always wins and the rest is gossip. If twenty slurs sounds right to you, play them. If you want to play all single notes do so .But just play. Next week you might want to play differently. Miko Russell would have ran a mile from our knowledgeable friend
Ha ha, that's funny. I particularly like the "if you want to talk endlessly about technique" bit, just befor the endless talk of technique. It must have took him ages.
(Oh, and I can't stand Martin Hayes by the way, as if you couldn't guess)
no advice in there Conan-just a suggestion to play. As for half page of anecdotes...no problem with the giving of advice just disagree with the contents and how it was given. Just disagree like Will did with Larsheen on Donegal style. I am sure Will is a great pal to you all and will probably give more advice and am sorry you have taken this on board as criticism but there you are. I'd say now BegF that I was in Miko's company when you were still in the pram. Are you long out of it?mmmn
Banjaxed, I actually agree with some of the points you're making, but there's no need to be so dismissive in your tone A simple "I disagree" usually does the trick for me.
I mean, did you expect people to be anything other than a bit defensive.
Yeah, you are right Conan. Have reread and I didn't mean to be dismissive and "hello" was just a catch phrase like a lot of others we use. Let me apologize for all and to all especially Will, yourself and BegFbecause I didn't mean to start all of this and it just isn't that important other than it was never intended to offend. So for whatever offence I have caused I am sorry. Was just an opinion expressed- obviously in a less than pleasant way
Re Zina's comment further up about Tommy Peoples not flicking the bow to get a triplet. It was Donal Lunny who told me that's what he did years ago and I assume he wasn't having me on. I then started doing that to get that triplet effect and it does work.
I don't know if TP does or not.
I'll bow (not bow) to Zina's first hand knowledge LOL SNORT!etc.
Well, Jocklet, would you know if I was laughing at you in a certain way if I was laughing at you in person instead of online? *smirk* Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... (Thanks for the sub, Johnny J! LOL)
Playing trad music may be simple, but it's certainly not always easy, unless of course you've forgotten how long the learning process was at the other end of it. For some of us, that learning process is easier because you grew up with the stuff in the background, as it were, and it's somewhat part of your personal venacular. For others of us, the learning process is more artificial and more "taught", because it has to be. Lucky you, the first group, and what fun for us in the second!
Geoff, as for the Peoples triplet, it's def a smile inducer to listen to Mr. Peoples talk about same -- he's incredibly quiet and doesn't normally say things out rather strongly, but when he talks about The Triplet, he got almost definite! Severe, even! (And, yeah, let's try and work out SF, Geoff, that'd be a blast to play tunes with you again!)
Michael, I'm sure Mr. Hayes is heartbroken. *snicker*
No worries banjaxed--I'm used to being laughed at for trying to pin words onto this stuff, which is "beyond words."
"Just play." Indeed. But then why post here at all?
See, some of us here have been through _that_ conversation, several times. Yes, playing this music is something you learn by doing, by listening, listening, listening (Does Mr. Gill have a copyright on that phrase yet? , and by doing some more.
All well and good. I learned the music that way myself. But it didn't stop me from asking questions, and from thinking and talking about all the little stuff with other musicians...mostly because some of us *enjoy* talking and thinking about it. Talking about it doesn't have to get in the way of just doing it. When I type away in here, I'm not playing my fiddle. When I fiddle, I'm not typing in here. Can the one help you learn to do the other better? I don't know. It's an experiment. One that some of us carry out here because we're on different continents and we can't sit down right now and just play together. So we toss words at each other. Not the most musical session, but it has it's own usefulness and rewards.
So when someone raises a technique question here, I see no harm in throwing more words at it. I think the "just play" (listen, listen, listen) part is understood.
If Kevin Burke said something like, "It can't be taught" I have to wonder why he charges money for fiddle lessons, workshops, and master classes. He's a genuinely generous soul--not the type to rip people off. Based on the couple of times I've sat at his knee, I'd guess that he enjoys helping people think about the music and their own playing and all the nuances there are to it. A good teacher doesn't show you "the way," but helps open the door to your own understanding. Kevin does that. He's also taken lessons from other players, even in the middle of his own career.
Micho Russell was a wholly by-his-gut musician. Great! That worked for him, and it's not a bad model to mimic, if that's what suits you. But it's not the only good way to make music. We're a world of individuals and different people have different approaches to music. Some are intuitive, some are analytical, some are idiot savants. Whatever shakes your tree. I've run into lots of great players who can talk long and in great detail about playing music. Most would agree that you have to listen-and-do. But many of them also enthusiastically pass on nuggets of insight and wisdom.
E.g.: In a fiddle workshop a few years back, Kevin Burke said that "grip" is exactly the wrong word to describe the little leater pad on the bow stick down by the frog. Don't "grip" the bow, he said, but hold it gently, as lightly as you would a cigarette, or a small bird. He guessed that most fiddlers would have a little dent in the flesh on the side of their index fingers from pressing on the bow. But that's a symptom of too much pressure.
I'd wager everyone in the room that day learned a lot about how to hold their bows. I know I did. Of course I had to go home and figure out how to *do* it. But Kevin helped point me in the right direction.
Oh, and Will, I think a Flash or Director cd book would be damned cool. I'll have to brush up. That's what I was planning on doing with that book on Irish solo dresses, which, if you squint, is still somewhere in the distance...
I think we need to remember that if some of these longer threads were spoken in a conversation, they would be quite quick and interesting. To some, more than others, the length of the replys and the time it takes to read a lot of this stuff can give the *effect* of beating a dead horse. I've often found myself think "yeesh" how in the f__k could anyone linger on this itty point for so long?! This thread was no different. In reality, there's more fluff than content, but whatever content there is, it's invaluable. We all hunt for the grand secrets of playing when the truth is experience will yield the answers. If more people expound their experience perhaps we all might learn faster.
Listen, listen, listen, play, play, play, share, share, share, sahre. All of it helps in some way shape or form. And repetition is the key to learning.
"Pointers." Good word. Pointing people in a useful direction. Which is what teaching is.
I've gotta go install a door and finish roofing the porch before today's snow drifts in over the mountain range, but....
I get a little tired of the mystical approach to trad music, as though trad players have some monopoly on the tunes and how to learn them. The music is held aloft as a lifestyle, not just a set of skills. Which it is. But, pursured seriously, so is every other style of music. Along with any other art form. Or skilled trade, for that matter.
Of course music can be taught--people have been doing that for generations. There are music classes in school, music conservatories, music majors in college, master classes, ad nauseum. Most of us don't learn music in a vacuum, and it's not listening and listening alone. Music is social interaction, and those of us who play in sessions, of anyone, should have no problem recognizing and remembering that.
So we learn music not just by listening and doing, but by sharing our experiences and knowledge gained. Why do some people have such a hard time with that? Does it challenge their place as high priests of the mystic rites? Does it somehow diminish the mystery of the music itself? Are you a traitor to the cult if you explain in words some of the skills and concepts used to play this music? Should we be banished for revealing the secret password?
Let's get real. We had a simple question about slurring and single bowing. One of the features of Irish fiddling, across every county style and beyond, is the tendency to slur onto strong beats. Not every single time. Not locked into some immutable bowing pattern. And not as some cure-all for your bowing inadequacies. It's just a useful piece of the puzzle. A "pointer."
I put them in order of my own personal belief of importance. Listen, Play Share... that's not to say it's right. It's just what seems to work for me. And I agree Michael that repetition can yield wrong learning, but that's perhaps another thread.
I'd agree that listening is key - THE most important,
andf by repetition I assumed included the repetition of listening to your self play.
But seriously, how far do you think you'd get without the initial pointers in the right direction ?
ok, I see your point, then make the whole works cyclical and remove the importance placed on each component (play, listen, share etc.) Make it a continuum that you can spend differing amounts of time with.
Time for me to quit...I would hate to be involved with the theorization of an ITM learning model/methodology. If we keep this up, we'll have ITMSuzuki or something....ah!!!!!
Actually, I do have a whiney twang. It's just that luckily my voice is pitched quite low, otherwise no one could stand listening to me. (Including me.)
Just remember, y'all: "There's no rules, and when you break one, you're going to hear all about it."
LOL -- but it's really low, so it's not so bad, Dave!
(I was once offered a job on one of those 900 sex lines. Somebody else told me that I'd last maybe six seconds, because apparently the top request on those things is that you pretend to be a young girl. I'd be fired within those first six, I'd think. I also treasure the time a co-worker that I'd talked with a jillion times on the phone finally visited Denver from our New York office. He looked so disappointed, I asked him what was wrong and he said that he'd expected a blonde! What the hell does that mean, I wonder?!)
Listen, play, share. It starts with listening, probably in the womb. And you don't have much to share unless you play. So it starts in that order. But then it does become a cycle, or better yet, a happens-all-at-once. Which is what a session is, eh?
"Listen, listen, listen" no doubt is great advice. I would submit that, yes, we have to listen in order to learn but that we also have to learn how to listen. That's easier advice to give than to follow -- I'm sure that those of you who have learned to play well have also learned to listen much more deeply than us beginners.
I know someone who is skilled at pencil drawings, and she said most people can't draw because they're not looking hard enough at the subject, that they look at their drawing as it progresses and often don't bother to look at the subject because they think they know how it looks. So if they're drawing a chair, for example, they know that all four legs are basically the same length and they drawn them accordingly, losing all sense of perspective.
I didn't have any sense of how closely one needs to look until I was trying to do a pencil-drawing of an egg and the artist told me I was missing the subtle highlight that separates the shadowy underside of the egg from the shadow that the egg casts.
I think we beginners can listen, listen listen all we want, but mostly that gives us just the skeleton of the tune, and it isn't until we've learned to play some and listen more that we start picking up on so-called "nyah" or "lift" or the judicious use of slurs and single notes or accents or any of the other nuances that separate mere execution from actual music.
"easier advice to give than to follow" - isn't that the truth.
One of the things we can't do in this online forum is demonstrate the actual playing. When I teach face to face, I like to include time listening to a recording so I can talk with the student about what we're hearing, pointing out the nuances, playing them over, offering names and descriptions of the sounds. It can be a real mind opener to play a snippet of Kevin Burke, say, and then recreate it on my fiddle, and demonstrate the pieces--"this is a slur here, and single bows here, and now a long up bow," etc. So the student isn't left to guessing so much about how the different sounds are made. Of course, it's still up to them to go home and put hair and finger to string....
"Mere execution" is probably a good description of my playing, Paul. *smirk* Learning to listen is one of the hardest things to learn, and coincidentally has a lot to do with why beginners often feel more of a connection to the New Age or Rock versions of Irish trad than they do the "pure drop" solo stuff. In my opinion, of course. ;)
I like that about looking and learning to draw being the similar to listening and playing. And there is a specific similarity that relates to fiddle bowing.
When people who can't draw first draw, they almost always just draw in outlines. Lets go back to the egg; an oval shaped black line on a flat page is not a egg. If you look at the egg on the table, there is no black line arround it. The essence of the egg is in all the subtle shadding, and the essesnce of the egg in its situation is in the dramatic change in tone from egg to background.
All this talk of when to change direction with the bow is, I think, akin to drawing in black lines. Imagine the light shade of the top of the egg and the darker colour of the background above it. Or the dark underside of the egg and the lighter shade of the table under it. When you have a sharp change in tone, this could be thought of as a cut or change in bow direction. But look for that elusive beatiful area where the shade of the background and the shade of the edge of the egg are the same. Lovelyu
Well, I thought that analogy was going somewhere and then it just sort of unravelled on me. :-|
I really like that analogy of beginners drawing in outlines. So Michael, if you're getting at the subtle shadings of tone and emphasis being the heart of bowing, then I agree. This too can be explained in words--in terms of changes in bow pressure ("leaning on the bow"), bow speed, the feel of caressing the strings with your fingers rather than focusing on this tree branch with horse hair, etc.
To the point of this thread: it's not just slurring onto certain notes that makes it music. You have to lean (ever so lightly) on the bow at the right times, and ease off the bow at the right times, to create lift.
Actually, if you look very closely at just about anything, there is oftentimes a very thin black or greyish outline at the very edge of even things that are completely white. It's a shadow, generally.
You bring up something else that I find very few people mention, Will -- bow speed. Very often what someone thinks of as "leaning on a note" is more actually drawing the bow faster across the string, not leaning into it (though there's times for that too). It lends a certain effect that most experienced fiddlers use a great deal, but that is almost never mentioned at workshops and lessons, I'm not sure why.
Because it's largely subconscious. It tends to happen on its own as you focus on leaning into or easing off the hair, and length of stroke. But bow speed is definitely something worth experimenting with more consciously, so at least you know how it influences tone, timing, etc.
It's not people who are learning to draw who draw in outlines. One of the first things you learn is not too. It's people who have never payed attention to what they see.
and Zina, there is a world of diference between what you see and what is. You may see a faint black line arround the egg, a trick of the light, but there isn't one. (I doubt this has any relevance to bowing though, philosophy of perception, Descart)i
Just because there's a difference in what one might see and what is actually there doesn't mean that one doesn't see it, Michael. And everyone's perception of any given thing is worth something.
Interesting, but it would have been nice had banjax not made it personal. He might have had more to give to the discussion.
Once again, there is a split in theory about how to teach and learn. We have the MDs calling the midwives witch doctors, or high priests. And the midwives calling the MDs hacks. We have discection and a more holistic approach. The pointers and the listeners.
Zina's reply to Michael's analogy is a great example of this. I say grey, you say black. And Michael was trying so hard!
I am fascinated by Will's replies when someone asks for advice. What bothers me is that I cannot always tell if I agree with him or not. You see, some of us have not taken the time to break down or disect what we are doing. And since I don't sit here with my fiddle and try things out, it is difficult to discover.
The other thing is that sometimes advice comes out as a hard and fast rule, or a generalization that covers a general question. And that may be what banjax reacted to.
With that hijack of a prelude, here is my answer to the original question: obviously, jimmyoats is in a rut and needs to get deeper into the tunes. Bowing and placement of slurs is not something to be stamped on all tunes in a set pattern (which is kinda what he is doing now). Listen to each tune and experiment with different mixtures. Some of those exercises from above sound interesting. Like playing the tune with no slurs and trying to hear where that hurts the tune.
Trying so hard to do what, exactly? *grin* *Personally*, I think people tend to teach and learn differently from other people, with overlapping in various ways. What works well for one person doesn't work well for another. There's little to no use denigrating anyone for learning or teaching a different way from what works for oneself.
But I think there is Zina. I constantly come accross people doing awful things to tunes and they always say either,"Well that's the way I learned it", or "Well that's the way I was taught it". Are you really happy with people destrying the music just because they think it "works for them"?
Hi all,banjax here. Have been lying low rather than offend again!! Jode mentions in his mail about it being a pity that I got personal which of course was never the intention and how he felt that I might have reacted to advice appearing to be a hard and fast rule, which of course is probable. However it got me thinking and before I proceed let me say I do not intend to offend- I do not know who lives where, who is Irish, who comes from what background or what anyone’s believes are. This contributor lives in Ireland and has experiences of playing music up in the areas near and on the border between the south and north of Ireland. When playing here, your Irishness takes on a new meaning. You experience oppression, you enter houses and play and eat in the kitchen knowing that an invading force has listening devices aimed at the house from an overlooking hill-top and can hear all. You play with older musicians who will play “Haste to the Wedding”, “Harvest Home”, and other such tunes, giving them due reverence while the more modern session goers might consider them “old hat”. You will listen as they talk of how they learned a tune from some older musician now passed on. How a tune would bring memories of an old time and how back then they might struggle to play with others because of lack of opportunity. You experience soldiers examining the car every couple of miles, opening fiddle cases etc. You heard stories of John Gordon who if half the stories were true, was a better fiddle player than Sean Maguire ever was and who influenced the likes of Ben and Charlie Lennon. The same John Gordon who struggled with his own challenges and because of these was never heard as others were.
You compare this to living and playing in the capital of Ireland where pubs wouldn’t allow you to draw a bow across stings whether it was a down bow or up.(smiley). There were two pubs in all of Dublin, which would allow you to play, and one on the outskirts. Before that I have memories of another type of oppression- that of the Catholic church closing down ceilidh and of course before my time, people being run home from crossroads and the instruments being broken-again by our friends the church. At the same time across the border up in the Cross- Keys area, the Presbyterian people were keeping the fiddle tradition alive.
Yes, without a doubt there are publicans such as Moylans in Loughrea and others in different parts of Ireland, which nurtured the music, but they were few and far between. Even today and for some years now, whether you get to have a session in a pub depends on the economic climate-if business is good you are not needed and when sales dip you are back in fashion albeit like now where you play with a big screen on, volume turned down so as to gain maximum clientele base. There are as I said exceptions to this but generally Irish music as it’s known is not an important feature in the minds of these businessmen
In the likes of England and America, the music survived and flourished despite a different form of difficulty. In England, we “coped with no blacks, dogs or Irishmen”(I have no experiences of America, so can’t comment). Nowadays when I listen to musicians from European countries mad to get to Ireland I am reminded of how we all thought that the streets of England and America were paved with gold!!Our music whilst a great source of joy and indeed addictive nature to us all who play is also tinged with the struggle to survive the dictates of oppressive forces. For some of us older people (and I do not in any way intend to disparage younger musicians), the memories are burnt in to our music. These memories shape how you play a tune. When I play certain tunes today, I am transported back in time to where and how I learnt those tunes and memories from then influence the playing of that tune today.
I honour and acknowledge the great opportunity to discuss anything (God’s know we couldn’t do it for a long time) including music, technique or whatever, whilst hoping you might understand why, whilst not discounting the importance of technique, I say “just play” .I known how difficult it is no matter what continent one might live on, to ever get to the bottom of this music but when you are sitting playing a tune after having gone through checkpoints just to get there, nobody cares whether you are going up or down, whether you cross bow or single- if you haven’t got the heart, all the technique will not make it right. So I would never intend to offend but when Jode says I got personal you might understand - it is personal but not how Jode imagines!!I wish you all, wherever you are, great music and will look forward to many more lines of discussion. Again no offence intended and am really sorry about the length of this mail- a bit carried away!!
not so much because of or despite of but more because you have some drive to. sure what keeps us all going when a tune we could play perfectly yesterday sounds like rubbish today.when you have changed strings, changed fiddle, changed bow or at least entertained the thought that it could be those things that are the problem!!! is it some life journey that we undertake... the heartbreak and joy of playing..sure you just keep going ,enjoying the buzz of a great session and practicing for the next one
Many of us, even as far removed as we are from the source of this music, have learned from the people who kept the tunes alive during hard times. Even in po-dunk Montana USA you'll find sessions where respect is the norm, where the tunes are *not* trotted out as mere fodder to sell pints, my own session included.
In my experience, no matter where you go, most of the people who play this music "get it." We get out tunes from real people, who got them from players before them, and that human chain is as important as the tunes themselves. It's an honor to be invited into that community when someone offers to give you a tune.
The discussions here may not foster the same connectedness (or they might, I dunno), but they come from the same spirit of passing along what was given to us.
"Just play" is indeed good advice and no one is arguing with that. But surely there's no harm in digging a bit deeper into the how's of it for folks who are desperate to improve, to do justice to the tunes.
Also - I don't think anyone here is offering their opinions and advice as though it's the only way to do things (well, maybe Michael is . Sometimes we skip the "In my opinion" stuff because it just takes up time to type and read, and it's understood.
It’s like food.
For some it’s “Eat your greens, kids are starving in Africa” , some want to swap recipes, and others say forget recipes just cook by instinct.
I like the food analogy. Recipes, schmecipes. I cook by instinct, but I've been cooking for 35 years. Same with the music. It's easy when you've been doing it all your life, eh?
But recollect back to your beginning and you'll find someone more experienced than you giving you pointers and a helping hand.
This refrain of "listen, listen, listen, and just play" comes up every time we get into technique questions. Fine. But let's not ridicule the people who *want* to have a conversation about the specifics. If it's not your cuppa tea, why not give it a rest.
don't know who the "give it a rest" was aimed at Will but no ridicule here from me.have apologized and tried to make sense of my feelings on it but like I said above, am all on for discussion
I agree also Will. But my retort of listen listen listen has never been to discourage people from having conversations about the specifics, rather it was born out of people who want conversations about specifics, but have not listened first. A typical one being, "I've got such and such a tune on a CD and I love it to bits. Does anyone have the music?"
No worries banjaxed. It wasn't really "aimed" at any specific person (why does Michael's name keep coming to mind? or post, just a general plea for letting technique discussions go forward. I appreciate the context you brought to this.
Just thinking out loud now, and not meaning to beat the dead horse, but it occurs to me that no one objects when someone asks how to keep your pegs from sticking or how to mute a whistle for after hours practice, etc. No one says, "Ignore the bliddy pegs and just play."
I wouldn't presume someone hasn't listened just because they're asking for the dots or ideas about bowing. Myabe they've listened for years and they still can't hear it. Not an auspicious start, but who am I to tell them not to keep trying and maybe even lend them a hand.
I come at this from years of teaching music and realizing that while most people are able to intuitively learn to listen and play, a few people need to be taught step-by-step some of the basics. Once you give them a hand, they're off and running. Out of hundreds of students, I've met only one who just couldn't get it, and even he was happy to keep trying (even after I suggested he take up welding or model sailboat making).
The analogy for me is my own son, who has a an IQ in the 130 range but also a learning disability and was falling behind in school because no one ever taught him reading comprehension. Our schools hand "easy" books to kids, teach a little vocabulary and phonics, and then expect them to figure the rest of it out. Most do, by making inferences, gradually sussing things out from the context, and learning by trial and error. But some kids can't do this on their own. They need the skills and concepts fro reading comprhension broken down and explicitly taught. And it owrks. My son now reads as well as anyone and gets above average grades.
I'm not suggesting that people looking for pointers on bowing or anything else are somehow learning disabled. But neither do I see the harm in exploring the details of what we do when we play music.
Will, I also did not mean to ridicule either you or banjaxed.
In one of banjaxed's post, he mention the Cross Keys area. If anyone is ever in the north, a visit to the Cross Keys pub is highly suggested. It is a unique location and the sessions are brilliant. The times I have been there, there were at least 3 sessions going on at the same time.
Most of my thoughts about playing fiddle have come out of time spent trying to explain to students what I'm doing when I play. Analyzing technique to death is not something I do when I'm playing. But neither does being aware of the details interfere with my playing. In fact, I think it helps to go through cycles of reflection and maybe even dissection on your own playing from time to time. Over the years, I've paused to reconsider how I do bowed triplets, rolls, cut notes, and how I hold the bow, how I use my right hand, posture--all sorts of specifics. And in every case I've come away with improvements and new ways of doing things that add chops to my playing. I'm not sure how you'd do that without consciously thinking about and picking apart the details now and then.
And my long-range ambition, if I have one at all, is to still be playing the music I love 40 years from now, but not playing it the same way I play it today. So musical change and growth are important to me.
Me too Will on the still playing in 40 years idea.
I definitely have considered my own playing, and things like posture and bow hold. And I am happy to say that I improve every year. Recent growth has come from learning new music and playing with some great musicians. I have not deconstructed my physical techniques in some time.
But it seems to me that some people are better at analyzing what they are doing than others. Maybe it is just the effort that goes into it. Perhaps after I teach for awhile, students will ask me enough questions that I will be able to explain minute details.
To continue, you can learn and improve without the discection. In the last year and a half, my playing has improved dramatically. And I have not stopped to consider my form or style.
I take that back. I did record myself and listen back to it last year. After hearing it, I revised some of my approaches to bowing. But that was achieved by ear more than by an examination of technique.
Again, I am not saying that one cannot benefit from analysis. I am just making a point that you can still progress without analyzing your technique.
I'd say almost all analysis of your playing has to be "by ear." What I mean by dissection is listening critically to yourself and trying different things till you get the sound you want. The more you listen to the details, the better you can get. Sometimes it helps (me, at least) to try to put it into words as well. Sometimes not. And some things musical just don't lend themselves to words.
I've heard stories from some brilliant, accomplished musicians about how they periodically revisit different aspects of their playing or understanding of music. It's a continual learning process--however you go about it.
I once spent a New Year's at a friend's house in Aspen (very chi chi!). I ate dinner next to the owner of a famous ski maker. Making conversation, and since I'd just begun skiing at that point (and gave it up later), I asked him, "what do I need to know about learning to ski?" He said, "Learn to ski as if you want to still be skiing when you're 80 years old."
I don't know that that had anything to do with Will's comment, but it seemed like it somehow. Obviously I'm sleep deprived.
P.S. Jode, what a treat it must be to play with Paddy O'Brien! The ceili band sounds great and looks like a lot of fun. I often wish we had a resident tune and tradition guru here in Helena. Sigh.
That, and ski to still be learning things when your 80. A good, good friend of mine (who presided over the vows between my wife and I) lived to be the oldest active ski instructor in the US at 81. He said he learned something new every year.
Ah Will, you've seen through my guise. Paddy is really the source of my recent progress. And it is really just learning and relearning tunes that has helped me immensely in my playing. Obviously, he cannot teach me fiddle technique, so it really is all about the tunes themselves.
I once heard a story about the elder John Kelly. It was told that when he was in his decline, his sons would come and pick him up and bring him to sessions. Just the thought of it nearly made me cry and has motivated me to keep on learning and keep on playing. May my sons be so gracious.
Meanwhile, we are having good fun in Belfast. Lovely session at Madden's last night. Tonight, we are recovering. Last night, we were too proud to let jet lag take us, but tonight?
I guess this proves I am hooked on thesession.org. Checking in from Ireland of all things!!
slurs vs. individual
slurs vs. individual
i know this is my second discussion about "help me, im trying to improve"
but wanting to ask about slurs vs. individual note playing
what combinations often works for you on different styles of tune?
i just find that i think i slur too frequently...
like often on a jig i will slur all 3 notes to a bow and on a reel will slur 2 notes to a bow - perhaps needing a bit more individual notes to chuck in
cheers
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by jimmyoats
Re: slurs vs. individual
I heard once about a playing style where you change bow only when you change onto a different string. It's probably apocryphal, but nevertheless not a bad bowing exercise to try out occasionally.
Trevor
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: slurs vs. individual
You often need to bow not in the regular 2 or 3 groups but across the barlines. Not so much a case of more or less individual notes - but where to place them!
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by Tarrantella
Re: slurs vs. individual
yeah, cause i was noticing that the main time when i play individual notes is when im crossing strings all the time...
ie: devils dream
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by jimmyoats
Re: slurs vs. individual
Jimmy, although there are no rules to bowing
see
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4823
it seems to me you are still using too much bow, not too little. But it depends on who you like ofcourse. Martin Hayes tends to bow every note in a jig and (unbelievably) he's well respected
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
Hi guys. First time posting (be gentle!). I think the bowing debate is all a matter of personal taste. You'll probably be influence by your regional style or of those whom you listen to. I personally suffer from the dreaded disease of classical training and constantly to try and relax my bowing and slur more. But when it comes to staccato triplets i find the stlye really helps. Play away and listen loads is the best advice i could give.
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by jfiddlerh
Re: slurs vs. individual
I don't feel happy with being invited to join in slurring an individual, I think it is in bad form, especially as you haven't even given us his name . . . . .
sorry - I couldn't resist.
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: slurs vs. individual
Showaddy, you're really George Bernard Shaw in disguise, aren't you?
Good on ya!
(This is a compliment, not a slur...)
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by grego
Re: slurs vs. individual
Buried in work, but I have to comment....
When to slur? On to strong beats. Sometimes across weak beats.
So: slur from the end of one measure onto the downbeat of the next (this is particularly effective in jigs). Slurring across weak beats is what happens in a reel when you slur three notes on an up bow and then down bow the next note.
Most Irish fiddlers rarely repeat patterns of slurs and down bows more than two or three simes in a row--they mix in phrases of single bows.
And Donegal fiddling is rich in well-placed slurs. The "only single bows" thing is a myth. Listen to good Donegal fiddlers - lots of single bows, yes, but not to the exlusion of important slurs.
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
You've got me bang to rights governor!
It's a fair cop - I'll come quietly.
But society's to blame, so I want you to arrest them as well.
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: slurs vs. individual
MICHAEL! You admitted that Martin Hayes is well respected! LOL -- who are you, and what the hell have you done with Michael Gill?!? *smirk* BTW, while Emily and I were at Sebastapol, we heard Martin Hayes and John Doyle blow all our socks off with a remarkable, masterly setting of Star of Munster that had the audience on its feet. If you're not careful, MG, you're going to lose your reputation as Session Curmudgeon. Next thing everyone is going to think you're as cute and cuddly as, say, Q. *grin*
Trev, that's not apocryphal, you heard it from me, and the person who said it was Joan Hanrahan of Ennis. I hasten to add that she followed up her admonition not to change bow direction until you hit a different string with a shrug and an off-hand "unless you do." (Joan gave me my first lesson on the Irish fiddle. She also told me that people try to learn way too many tunes at the beginning, and if they'd just stick with five tunes in the first year, she'd have taught them everything they need to know.)
Anyway, to get to the question... Jimmyoats, Will Harmon is very VERY busy right now, and he's probably one of the best to answer, but I happen to be struggling with bowing issues right now myself. Will and Kevin Bernhagen have both been trying to help me. I think it's good to be able to single bow whatever you like -- if you can keep it smooth, it'll provide a nice clear sound with lots of drive. But as Kevin Burke once told Will (and others), you should be able to bow anything in any way, and have it sound exactly the way you want. You and I, son, are on our toddling steps down that road.
Fun to go back and read the thread that Michael Gill gave you the link to -- I had to drop back out of that conversation (I've been on a long trip out of town to care for my ailing father). We've also lots more discussions on bowing in the archives, do try a search on "bowing" or some such and you'll get an eyefull.
and, BTW, Jode is right in that thread -- Tommy Peoples does NOT flick the fingers during his triplets. I spent no little time with him last he was in town, and Tommy was adamant (for the very soft-spoken Mr. Peoples) that he does not flick the finger to get the triplet, and after watching him play closely for an hour, I would say that he does not. The flick is from the momentum of his bow. Somewhere there's a description of this in the archives, do a search if you're interested.
Greg, Dave is NOT GBS in disguise. For one thing, he's a lot cuter than GBS. ;)
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
LOL
I should have known -- no matter how busy he is, you can always get Will to bite!
BTW, Will, Kevin gave me an exercise -- have you given me this one before? Go through a tune and single bow three notes followed by three slurred notes, and go through the entire tune that way...
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Another btw
Welcome to The Session, jfiddlerh.
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Wow, Zina. Making up for lost time, I see.
Anyway, to answer the question, your bow should always be going either up or down, as I understand it. Try to avoid going side to side if possible.
That's all there is to it! ;^)
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: slurs vs. individual
Kerri! Hey, chick. What, making up for lost time? Has it been so long that you've forgotten I ALWAYS post this much? *smirk* Anyway, Kevin says that something somebody else told me to try is making my bow twist a bit while I bow, so side to side is def bad in my book.
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Another good exercise is to go through the tune a few times with absolutely no slurs. You'll start to hear where the tune wants them. Sorry that's a bit nebulous, but if you've got the tune in your head, you'll hear the absence of the slurs.
# Posted on November 15th 2004 by _Steph_
Re: slurs vs. individual
"The Absence of the Slurs"....isn't that a movie with Anthony Hopkins and Jodie Foster?
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
Just do what you want. If it sounds the way you want, and it has the nyah, then you're good.
psst.... Does any one have any ideas on how to do that #(*&@!!! measure in The Shetland fiddler eg. AeBe cede.... I'm used to hitting lower strings on the off beats, not higher!!!
Oh, and I think the type of tune demands a different bowing... like that Shetland listening tune I'm working on, Da Full-rigged Ship... I slur everything top try and get that rolling ship feel in full sail.... changing bow only on a beat.... and then when I run into a reel or pretty much any jig, I start single or double bowing the beats. Seems to work. :D
-Pádraig
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: slurs vs. individual
Well, Pádraig, just bow the measure the way you want, so it'll sound the way you want and so it has the nyah. Easy, right? ;)
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
One of my teachers (a highly esteemed player) taught me to "treat every note as an individual"- that may be more Cape Breton style of fiddling.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by CC
Re: slurs vs. individual
CC, that's good advice for any style--every note counts. The good players make you think each note is the most important thing in the world the moment you're hearing it. But that doesn't mean they all have to be single bowed. You can make any note in a slur stand out simply by varying its volume, tone, and/or articulation.
Just back from a gig, playing tunes for a fundraiser, me on fiddle, Murph on bodhran, and Angie on guitar. Great room for acoustics and an attentive crowd. They stood up and clapped for Toss the Feathers when we were finished with it. And after the fact I realized I'd snuck in some crazy long bows where I'd never done *that* before. But it worked because that's what I was hearing in my mind's ear at the time.
I've said it before but it bears repeating. Bow a tune every which way, inside out and backwards, till you can't come up with another way to do it. And then you'll have all of that in your right hand, at the ready, able to snap out the sound the moment your medulla oblongata thinks of it.
Oh. Beer helps.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
More good advice, Will. So, that'll be in that fiddle book you're writing, correct? That oughta be out sometime soon, yeah? Still waiting with 'bated breath...turning blue...passing out...
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by soft black stars
Re: slurs vs. individual
Lol, I shouldn't even be checking in here--I'm knotted to the crab pot of work and headed for the briney deep--drowning in deadlines, but none of them for a book on fiddle...yet.
I *am* working on it, but it won't be a book till next year.
So I'm working overtime, hoping to bank enough hours to take off a month or two this winter and focus on the fiddle book. The first draft is pretty well along, but now I need to bug Zina about her "cd book" idea.
Meanwhile, last year's project is on the shelves. I'm not violating any etiquette here about sel-promotion am I? I mean, it's a history/how-to text book on natural resource decision making. Nobodies gonna read that, right?
Inhale Christine.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
Any time, dude.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Reverend
Re: slurs vs. individual
Er...that was me, on Pete's account...oops, sorry, forgot which computer I was on...
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Reverend
Re: slurs vs. individual
I am a beginner at fiddle. But looking at what Kevin Burke is teaching me via video, it could depend on the song. He is one to say that there is no set style: but he favors thigns such as a slur onto the strong notes and such. in some jigs, as much slur as possible, just to give it a fluty sound. really, I think, whjat you need to do, this is what a great fiddling friend of mine said, is understand the song, and work out the bowing that works with the song. yeah, that's good.
or, you could look into things like "downbowing" if you want a very specific, rythmic sound.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by sifudave54
Re: slurs vs. individual
Reading down, 5 tunes for a year is NOT enough for me. I get so sick of it! I practice like 4 hours a day. the only time I make progress really past a certain point is when I'm learning new tunes. breaks up the old set-in habits of the old tunes and broadnes my abilities and all that shite.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by sifudave54
Re: slurs vs. individual
But remeber, Kevin Burke himself said, "You can't teach this music. You can learn it, but you can't be taught it."
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
There's a wealth of wisdom encapsulated in that simple remark.
Bravo, Mr Burke, and to Michael for bringing it to our attention !
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by murfbox
Re: slurs vs. individual
Why "unbelievably",micheal gill?
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: slurs vs. individual
Can't we somehow stop Zina using "LOL"?.
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: slurs vs. individual
Nothing personal,it just conveys nothing to me.Is she laughing,sarcastically,sardonically,at or with someone,sniggering,giggling or chuckling to herself? I suppose LOL is simply one of those phatic utterances.
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: slurs vs. individual
Jocklet, by "we" do you mean "I"?
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: slurs vs. individual
Jocklet, as Zina is still asleep at the moment(time zone differences), I will comment on her behalf.
*SNORT*
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: slurs vs. individual
Wow! I have watched with great interest as the comments pour in reference slurs and single notes. And the absolutes! Important slurs! Slurring across weak beats! What the hell is that about? Important slur!! Discussions are grand and of course this discussion page is great but when contributors start to use terms like “I’ve said it before and it bears repeating” it’s time to run for the hills and especially when we get to hear about “Toss the Feathers” Oh HELLO!!
Let’s cut through the high dudgeon stuff. Playing trad music is very simple but if you want to talk endlessly about technique….well before you know it will be complicated. All fiddler players have to deal with a force of nature otherwise known as gravity. Part of the influence of gravity is that all bowing will be stronger on the downbow unless it has been trained out of you(see above comment re difficulty in playing trad when classically trained.) All tunes can be played in any style but if you want the tune to sound true to its roots it requires either changing the tune or your bowing. For example certain tunes from Donegal/Scottish tradition can be played whatever way you like-who cares- but if you want them to sound a specific way you will need to adjust and a lot of time the tune will itself make you change. Unless of course you are from that region! Tommy Peoples whilst living in Clare might play Clare tunes but will still only use 6-8 ins of bow and if he is slurring with that… Despite what Kevin Burke or anyone else says (and musicians tend to give out abbreviated advice conveniently omitting to mention that your playing is influenced by lots of things), you can practice all you like, but you will end up following your heart when playing or else you are wasting your time. Bowing issues are like plec action on the banjo- down stroke versus upstroke and Kieran Hanrahan said it all when asked about his technique. His reply was that in the end you have to play within yourself. Donegal playing, Clare playing, etc etc. All have a combination of slurs and staccato but the facts are that Donegal fiddling playing consists mainly of single bowing-Cassidy, Doherty, Boyle all being examples and Dermot McGloughlin being the modern example. Joe Burke doesn’t play polkas and John Doherty doesn’t play slides. In the years following the arrival of Michael Colemans 78’s to Ireland and the improvement in communication and travel, regional styles became slightly blurred. However whilst Martin Hayes plays one way on stage and on cd that is not the way he plays when at home with neighbours such as Mary McNamara and his family. You can use all the figure of eight cross bowing technique you like but if you are playing a highland or march then it will sound shi*e but if you want to sound like Coleman and people like Tony deMarco, Conway and others have perfected this, then figure of eight away with you!! This high dictatorial advice is always from people who need to appear important and they would probably better just playing. This would appear to be the case when someone starts to get excited about Toss The Feathers. Like the old comment on the debate after a football match- the best team always wins and the rest is gossip. If twenty slurs sounds right to you, play them. If you want to play all single notes do so .But just play. Next week you might want to play differently. Miko Russell would have ran a mile from our knowledgeable friend
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by banjaxed
Re: slurs vs. individual
Hmmm someone who writes half a page of advice and anecdotes, criticises someone else for doing so and then finishes with "just play".
Will has posted a great deal of useful stuff on this board out of generosity of spirit. That was your first post, banjaxed. No need to be so spiteful.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: slurs vs. individual
Close friend of Miko's where ya ?
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by BegF
Re: slurs vs. individual
Ha ha, that's funny. I particularly like the "if you want to talk endlessly about technique" bit, just befor the endless talk of technique. It must have took him ages.
(Oh, and I can't stand Martin Hayes by the way, as if you couldn't guess)
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
I thought he was you in disguise !
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by BegF
Re: slurs vs. individual
Who, Martin Hayes or Banjaxed?
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
no advice in there Conan-just a suggestion to play. As for half page of anecdotes...no problem with the giving of advice just disagree with the contents and how it was given. Just disagree like Will did with Larsheen on Donegal style. I am sure Will is a great pal to you all and will probably give more advice and am sorry you have taken this on board as criticism but there you are. I'd say now BegF that I was in Miko's company when you were still in the pram. Are you long out of it?mmmn
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by banjaxed
Re: slurs vs. individual
Oh sorry banjaxed, I assumed with the "Oh HELLO!!" comment that you were of the younger generation - obvioulsy a big "no no".
I admit defeat in this game of "na-nane-na-na"
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by BegF
Re: slurs vs. individual
Banjaxed, I actually agree with some of the points you're making, but there's no need to be so dismissive in your tone A simple "I disagree" usually does the trick for me.
I mean, did you expect people to be anything other than a bit defensive.
And, erm, "HELLO"????
Yeah, like, whatever.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: slurs vs. individual
Yeah, you are right Conan. Have reread and I didn't mean to be dismissive and "hello" was just a catch phrase like a lot of others we use. Let me apologize for all and to all especially Will, yourself and BegFbecause I didn't mean to start all of this and it just isn't that important other than it was never intended to offend. So for whatever offence I have caused I am sorry. Was just an opinion expressed- obviously in a less than pleasant way
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by banjaxed
Re: slurs vs. individual
No worries.
Defintily made the evening more interesting.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by BegF
Re: slurs vs. individual
As Judge Judy might say "It's all to easy to apologise after the event"
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: slurs vs. individual
Please note the "smiley", by the way.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: slurs vs. individual
Hey nice one, banjaxed!
I live in a big glass house anyway, as others on here will tell you.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: slurs vs. individual
Bo!!ocks. It was just getting interesting.
LOL SNORT!etc.
Re Zina's comment further up about Tommy Peoples not flicking the bow to get a triplet. It was Donal Lunny who told me that's what he did years ago and I assume he wasn't having me on. I then started doing that to get that triplet effect and it does work.
I don't know if TP does or not.
I'll bow (not bow) to Zina's first hand knowledge
Welcome back Zina
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: slurs vs. individual
Bo!!ocks to you too, Po!!itt!
That should get it going again...
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: slurs vs. individual
Well, Jocklet, would you know if I was laughing at you in a certain way if I was laughing at you in person instead of online? *smirk* Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... (Thanks for the sub, Johnny J! LOL)
Playing trad music may be simple, but it's certainly not always easy, unless of course you've forgotten how long the learning process was at the other end of it. For some of us, that learning process is easier because you grew up with the stuff in the background, as it were, and it's somewhat part of your personal venacular. For others of us, the learning process is more artificial and more "taught", because it has to be. Lucky you, the first group, and what fun for us in the second!
Geoff, as for the Peoples triplet, it's def a smile inducer to listen to Mr. Peoples talk about same -- he's incredibly quiet and doesn't normally say things out rather strongly, but when he talks about The Triplet, he got almost definite! Severe, even! (And, yeah, let's try and work out SF, Geoff, that'd be a blast to play tunes with you again!)
Michael, I'm sure Mr. Hayes is heartbroken. *snicker*
Larsheen, family site! Family site! ;)
Great pics, Conan!
Whew. Was that everything?
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
No worries banjaxed--I'm used to being laughed at for trying to pin words onto this stuff, which is "beyond words."
, and by doing some more.
"Just play." Indeed. But then why post here at all?
See, some of us here have been through _that_ conversation, several times. Yes, playing this music is something you learn by doing, by listening, listening, listening (Does Mr. Gill have a copyright on that phrase yet?
All well and good. I learned the music that way myself. But it didn't stop me from asking questions, and from thinking and talking about all the little stuff with other musicians...mostly because some of us *enjoy* talking and thinking about it. Talking about it doesn't have to get in the way of just doing it. When I type away in here, I'm not playing my fiddle. When I fiddle, I'm not typing in here. Can the one help you learn to do the other better? I don't know. It's an experiment. One that some of us carry out here because we're on different continents and we can't sit down right now and just play together. So we toss words at each other. Not the most musical session, but it has it's own usefulness and rewards.
So when someone raises a technique question here, I see no harm in throwing more words at it. I think the "just play" (listen, listen, listen) part is understood.
If Kevin Burke said something like, "It can't be taught" I have to wonder why he charges money for fiddle lessons, workshops, and master classes. He's a genuinely generous soul--not the type to rip people off. Based on the couple of times I've sat at his knee, I'd guess that he enjoys helping people think about the music and their own playing and all the nuances there are to it. A good teacher doesn't show you "the way," but helps open the door to your own understanding. Kevin does that. He's also taken lessons from other players, even in the middle of his own career.
Micho Russell was a wholly by-his-gut musician. Great! That worked for him, and it's not a bad model to mimic, if that's what suits you. But it's not the only good way to make music. We're a world of individuals and different people have different approaches to music. Some are intuitive, some are analytical, some are idiot savants. Whatever shakes your tree. I've run into lots of great players who can talk long and in great detail about playing music. Most would agree that you have to listen-and-do. But many of them also enthusiastically pass on nuggets of insight and wisdom.
E.g.: In a fiddle workshop a few years back, Kevin Burke said that "grip" is exactly the wrong word to describe the little leater pad on the bow stick down by the frog. Don't "grip" the bow, he said, but hold it gently, as lightly as you would a cigarette, or a small bird. He guessed that most fiddlers would have a little dent in the flesh on the side of their index fingers from pressing on the bow. But that's a symptom of too much pressure.
I'd wager everyone in the room that day learned a lot about how to hold their bows. I know I did. Of course I had to go home and figure out how to *do* it. But Kevin helped point me in the right direction.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
Oh, and Will, I think a Flash or Director cd book would be damned cool. I'll have to brush up. That's what I was planning on doing with that book on Irish solo dresses, which, if you squint, is still somewhere in the distance...
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
So does a Flash cd involve wearing (or not) a trench coat?
:-|
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
It's one that drives a fast car and throws it's cash around.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: slurs vs. individual
Will, rest assured, Kevin Burke did say, (right after, "you can't teach this music") "All you can do is give people pointers."
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
hahahaha! You guys are hilarious! I gotta go, I'm late!
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Oh, and then he said, "You just have to listen to it loads" (You can just hear it in that whiney nasal twang, ho ho)
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
So if I stick the stuff on in the background, I'll sound just like Kevin Burke after a while? Score! ;)
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
I think we need to remember that if some of these longer threads were spoken in a conversation, they would be quite quick and interesting. To some, more than others, the length of the replys and the time it takes to read a lot of this stuff can give the *effect* of beating a dead horse. I've often found myself think "yeesh" how in the f__k could anyone linger on this itty point for so long?! This thread was no different. In reality, there's more fluff than content, but whatever content there is, it's invaluable. We all hunt for the grand secrets of playing when the truth is experience will yield the answers. If more people expound their experience perhaps we all might learn faster.
Listen, listen, listen, play, play, play, share, share, share, sahre. All of it helps in some way shape or form. And repetition is the key to learning.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by c_ya
Re: slurs vs. individual
"Pointers." Good word. Pointing people in a useful direction. Which is what teaching is.
I've gotta go install a door and finish roofing the porch before today's snow drifts in over the mountain range, but....
I get a little tired of the mystical approach to trad music, as though trad players have some monopoly on the tunes and how to learn them. The music is held aloft as a lifestyle, not just a set of skills. Which it is. But, pursured seriously, so is every other style of music. Along with any other art form. Or skilled trade, for that matter.
Of course music can be taught--people have been doing that for generations. There are music classes in school, music conservatories, music majors in college, master classes, ad nauseum. Most of us don't learn music in a vacuum, and it's not listening and listening alone. Music is social interaction, and those of us who play in sessions, of anyone, should have no problem recognizing and remembering that.
So we learn music not just by listening and doing, but by sharing our experiences and knowledge gained. Why do some people have such a hard time with that? Does it challenge their place as high priests of the mystic rites? Does it somehow diminish the mystery of the music itself? Are you a traitor to the cult if you explain in words some of the skills and concepts used to play this music? Should we be banished for revealing the secret password?
Let's get real. We had a simple question about slurring and single bowing. One of the features of Irish fiddling, across every county style and beyond, is the tendency to slur onto strong beats. Not every single time. Not locked into some immutable bowing pattern. And not as some cure-all for your bowing inadequacies. It's just a useful piece of the puzzle. A "pointer."
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
Mike posted while I was "expounding."
He said it more concisely than I did.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
Ah yes, but repetition is also the key ingraining doing it wrong.
That's why listening is more important than playing
And Zina, of course you will. But you know this already
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
And Will, of course you zina, but you ...... Aaarrgg, the perils of cross posting
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
I'm confused. Zina is going to have a whiney nasal twang??
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by grego
Re: slurs vs. individual
I put them in order of my own personal belief of importance. Listen, Play Share... that's not to say it's right. It's just what seems to work for me. And I agree Michael that repetition can yield wrong learning, but that's perhaps another thread.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by c_ya
Re: slurs vs. individual
So if I listen to Michael for long enough, will I start to sound like him.
Rubbish !
Opps.....there it is.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by BegF
Re: slurs vs. individual
I'd agree that listening is key - THE most important,
andf by repetition I assumed included the repetition of listening to your self play.
But seriously, how far do you think you'd get without the initial pointers in the right direction ?
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by BegF
Re: slurs vs. individual
ok, I see your point, then make the whole works cyclical and remove the importance placed on each component (play, listen, share etc.) Make it a continuum that you can spend differing amounts of time with.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by c_ya
Re: slurs vs. individual
Time for me to quit...I would hate to be involved with the theorization of an ITM learning model/methodology. If we keep this up, we'll have ITMSuzuki or something....ah!!!!!
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by c_ya
Re: slurs vs. individual
Actually, I do have a whiney twang. It's just that luckily my voice is pitched quite low, otherwise no one could stand listening to me. (Including me.)
Just remember, y'all: "There's no rules, and when you break one, you're going to hear all about it."
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Zina? a whiney twang.
Can you hear that other sound? That's my world crashing down.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by showaddydadito
Severely off topic
LOL -- but it's really low, so it's not so bad, Dave!
(I was once offered a job on one of those 900 sex lines. Somebody else told me that I'd last maybe six seconds, because apparently the top request on those things is that you pretend to be a young girl. I'd be fired within those first six, I'd think. I also treasure the time a co-worker that I'd talked with a jillion times on the phone finally visited Denver from our New York office. He looked so disappointed, I asked him what was wrong and he said that he'd expected a blonde! What the hell does that mean, I wonder?!)
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Listen, play, share. It starts with listening, probably in the womb. And you don't have much to share unless you play. So it starts in that order. But then it does become a cycle, or better yet, a happens-all-at-once. Which is what a session is, eh?
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
Zina-900 PLAY-LISTEN-SHARE
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by BegF
Re: slurs vs. individual
"Listen, listen, listen" no doubt is great advice. I would submit that, yes, we have to listen in order to learn but that we also have to learn how to listen. That's easier advice to give than to follow -- I'm sure that those of you who have learned to play well have also learned to listen much more deeply than us beginners.
I know someone who is skilled at pencil drawings, and she said most people can't draw because they're not looking hard enough at the subject, that they look at their drawing as it progresses and often don't bother to look at the subject because they think they know how it looks. So if they're drawing a chair, for example, they know that all four legs are basically the same length and they drawn them accordingly, losing all sense of perspective.
I didn't have any sense of how closely one needs to look until I was trying to do a pencil-drawing of an egg and the artist told me I was missing the subtle highlight that separates the shadowy underside of the egg from the shadow that the egg casts.
I think we beginners can listen, listen listen all we want, but mostly that gives us just the skeleton of the tune, and it isn't until we've learned to play some and listen more that we start picking up on so-called "nyah" or "lift" or the judicious use of slurs and single notes or accents or any of the other nuances that separate mere execution from actual music.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by cuchulain54
Re: slurs vs. individual
"easier advice to give than to follow" - isn't that the truth.
One of the things we can't do in this online forum is demonstrate the actual playing. When I teach face to face, I like to include time listening to a recording so I can talk with the student about what we're hearing, pointing out the nuances, playing them over, offering names and descriptions of the sounds. It can be a real mind opener to play a snippet of Kevin Burke, say, and then recreate it on my fiddle, and demonstrate the pieces--"this is a slur here, and single bows here, and now a long up bow," etc. So the student isn't left to guessing so much about how the different sounds are made. Of course, it's still up to them to go home and put hair and finger to string....
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
"Mere execution" is probably a good description of my playing, Paul. *smirk* Learning to listen is one of the hardest things to learn, and coincidentally has a lot to do with why beginners often feel more of a connection to the New Age or Rock versions of Irish trad than they do the "pure drop" solo stuff. In my opinion, of course. ;)
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
I like that about looking and learning to draw being the similar to listening and playing. And there is a specific similarity that relates to fiddle bowing.
When people who can't draw first draw, they almost always just draw in outlines. Lets go back to the egg; an oval shaped black line on a flat page is not a egg. If you look at the egg on the table, there is no black line arround it. The essence of the egg is in all the subtle shadding, and the essesnce of the egg in its situation is in the dramatic change in tone from egg to background.
All this talk of when to change direction with the bow is, I think, akin to drawing in black lines. Imagine the light shade of the top of the egg and the darker colour of the background above it. Or the dark underside of the egg and the lighter shade of the table under it. When you have a sharp change in tone, this could be thought of as a cut or change in bow direction. But look for that elusive beatiful area where the shade of the background and the shade of the edge of the egg are the same. Lovelyu
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
Well, I thought that analogy was going somewhere and then it just sort of unravelled on me. :-|
I really like that analogy of beginners drawing in outlines. So Michael, if you're getting at the subtle shadings of tone and emphasis being the heart of bowing, then I agree. This too can be explained in words--in terms of changes in bow pressure ("leaning on the bow"), bow speed, the feel of caressing the strings with your fingers rather than focusing on this tree branch with horse hair, etc.
To the point of this thread: it's not just slurring onto certain notes that makes it music. You have to lean (ever so lightly) on the bow at the right times, and ease off the bow at the right times, to create lift.
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Will Harmon
Quibble
Actually, if you look very closely at just about anything, there is oftentimes a very thin black or greyish outline at the very edge of even things that are completely white. It's a shadow, generally.
You bring up something else that I find very few people mention, Will -- bow speed. Very often what someone thinks of as "leaning on a note" is more actually drawing the bow faster across the string, not leaning into it (though there's times for that too). It lends a certain effect that most experienced fiddlers use a great deal, but that is almost never mentioned at workshops and lessons, I'm not sure why.
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Because it's largely subconscious. It tends to happen on its own as you focus on leaning into or easing off the hair, and length of stroke. But bow speed is definitely something worth experimenting with more consciously, so at least you know how it influences tone, timing, etc.
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
It's not people who are learning to draw who draw in outlines. One of the first things you learn is not too. It's people who have never payed attention to what they see.
and Zina, there is a world of diference between what you see and what is. You may see a faint black line arround the egg, a trick of the light, but there isn't one. (I doubt this has any relevance to bowing though, philosophy of perception, Descart)i
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
Just because there's a difference in what one might see and what is actually there doesn't mean that one doesn't see it, Michael. And everyone's perception of any given thing is worth something.
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
(And shadows may not have substance, but they're still there.)
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Interesting, but it would have been nice had banjax not made it personal. He might have had more to give to the discussion.
Once again, there is a split in theory about how to teach and learn. We have the MDs calling the midwives witch doctors, or high priests. And the midwives calling the MDs hacks. We have discection and a more holistic approach. The pointers and the listeners.
Zina's reply to Michael's analogy is a great example of this. I say grey, you say black. And Michael was trying so hard!
I am fascinated by Will's replies when someone asks for advice. What bothers me is that I cannot always tell if I agree with him or not. You see, some of us have not taken the time to break down or disect what we are doing. And since I don't sit here with my fiddle and try things out, it is difficult to discover.
The other thing is that sometimes advice comes out as a hard and fast rule, or a generalization that covers a general question. And that may be what banjax reacted to.
With that hijack of a prelude, here is my answer to the original question: obviously, jimmyoats is in a rut and needs to get deeper into the tunes. Bowing and placement of slurs is not something to be stamped on all tunes in a set pattern (which is kinda what he is doing now). Listen to each tune and experiment with different mixtures. Some of those exercises from above sound interesting. Like playing the tune with no slurs and trying to hear where that hurts the tune.
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Jode
Re: slurs vs. individual
Trying so hard to do what, exactly? *grin* *Personally*, I think people tend to teach and learn differently from other people, with overlapping in various ways. What works well for one person doesn't work well for another. There's little to no use denigrating anyone for learning or teaching a different way from what works for oneself.
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
But I think there is Zina. I constantly come accross people doing awful things to tunes and they always say either,"Well that's the way I learned it", or "Well that's the way I was taught it". Are you really happy with people destrying the music just because they think it "works for them"?
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
Hi all,banjax here. Have been lying low rather than offend again!! Jode mentions in his mail about it being a pity that I got personal which of course was never the intention and how he felt that I might have reacted to advice appearing to be a hard and fast rule, which of course is probable. However it got me thinking and before I proceed let me say I do not intend to offend- I do not know who lives where, who is Irish, who comes from what background or what anyone’s believes are. This contributor lives in Ireland and has experiences of playing music up in the areas near and on the border between the south and north of Ireland. When playing here, your Irishness takes on a new meaning. You experience oppression, you enter houses and play and eat in the kitchen knowing that an invading force has listening devices aimed at the house from an overlooking hill-top and can hear all. You play with older musicians who will play “Haste to the Wedding”, “Harvest Home”, and other such tunes, giving them due reverence while the more modern session goers might consider them “old hat”. You will listen as they talk of how they learned a tune from some older musician now passed on. How a tune would bring memories of an old time and how back then they might struggle to play with others because of lack of opportunity. You experience soldiers examining the car every couple of miles, opening fiddle cases etc. You heard stories of John Gordon who if half the stories were true, was a better fiddle player than Sean Maguire ever was and who influenced the likes of Ben and Charlie Lennon. The same John Gordon who struggled with his own challenges and because of these was never heard as others were.
You compare this to living and playing in the capital of Ireland where pubs wouldn’t allow you to draw a bow across stings whether it was a down bow or up.(smiley). There were two pubs in all of Dublin, which would allow you to play, and one on the outskirts. Before that I have memories of another type of oppression- that of the Catholic church closing down ceilidh and of course before my time, people being run home from crossroads and the instruments being broken-again by our friends the church. At the same time across the border up in the Cross- Keys area, the Presbyterian people were keeping the fiddle tradition alive.
Yes, without a doubt there are publicans such as Moylans in Loughrea and others in different parts of Ireland, which nurtured the music, but they were few and far between. Even today and for some years now, whether you get to have a session in a pub depends on the economic climate-if business is good you are not needed and when sales dip you are back in fashion albeit like now where you play with a big screen on, volume turned down so as to gain maximum clientele base. There are as I said exceptions to this but generally Irish music as it’s known is not an important feature in the minds of these businessmen
In the likes of England and America, the music survived and flourished despite a different form of difficulty. In England, we “coped with no blacks, dogs or Irishmen”(I have no experiences of America, so can’t comment). Nowadays when I listen to musicians from European countries mad to get to Ireland I am reminded of how we all thought that the streets of England and America were paved with gold!!Our music whilst a great source of joy and indeed addictive nature to us all who play is also tinged with the struggle to survive the dictates of oppressive forces. For some of us older people (and I do not in any way intend to disparage younger musicians), the memories are burnt in to our music. These memories shape how you play a tune. When I play certain tunes today, I am transported back in time to where and how I learnt those tunes and memories from then influence the playing of that tune today.
I honour and acknowledge the great opportunity to discuss anything (God’s know we couldn’t do it for a long time) including music, technique or whatever, whilst hoping you might understand why, whilst not discounting the importance of technique, I say “just play” .I known how difficult it is no matter what continent one might live on, to ever get to the bottom of this music but when you are sitting playing a tune after having gone through checkpoints just to get there, nobody cares whether you are going up or down, whether you cross bow or single- if you haven’t got the heart, all the technique will not make it right. So I would never intend to offend but when Jode says I got personal you might understand - it is personal but not how Jode imagines!!I wish you all, wherever you are, great music and will look forward to many more lines of discussion. Again no offence intended and am really sorry about the length of this mail- a bit carried away!!
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by banjaxed
Re: slurs vs. individual
Phew. Question though:
Do you play despite all this or because of it?
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
not so much because of or despite of but more because you have some drive to. sure what keeps us all going when a tune we could play perfectly yesterday sounds like rubbish today.when you have changed strings, changed fiddle, changed bow or at least entertained the thought that it could be those things that are the problem!!! is it some life journey that we undertake... the heartbreak and joy of playing..sure you just keep going ,enjoying the buzz of a great session and practicing for the next one
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by banjaxed
Re: slurs vs. individual
Many of us, even as far removed as we are from the source of this music, have learned from the people who kept the tunes alive during hard times. Even in po-dunk Montana USA you'll find sessions where respect is the norm, where the tunes are *not* trotted out as mere fodder to sell pints, my own session included.
. Sometimes we skip the "In my opinion" stuff because it just takes up time to type and read, and it's understood.
In my experience, no matter where you go, most of the people who play this music "get it." We get out tunes from real people, who got them from players before them, and that human chain is as important as the tunes themselves. It's an honor to be invited into that community when someone offers to give you a tune.
The discussions here may not foster the same connectedness (or they might, I dunno), but they come from the same spirit of passing along what was given to us.
"Just play" is indeed good advice and no one is arguing with that. But surely there's no harm in digging a bit deeper into the how's of it for folks who are desperate to improve, to do justice to the tunes.
Also - I don't think anyone here is offering their opinions and advice as though it's the only way to do things (well, maybe Michael is
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
See now, that's gorgeous stuff. I just knew you were holding back.
And when you are going through checkpoints, what you need is a yank in the car. Just the accent gets you right through!
I'm off to Belfast on Sunday!
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Jode
Re: slurs vs. individual
It’s like food.
For some it’s “Eat your greens, kids are starving in Africa” , some want to swap recipes, and others say forget recipes just cook by instinct.
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by BegF
Re: slurs vs. individual
I like the food analogy. Recipes, schmecipes. I cook by instinct, but I've been cooking for 35 years. Same with the music. It's easy when you've been doing it all your life, eh?
But recollect back to your beginning and you'll find someone more experienced than you giving you pointers and a helping hand.
This refrain of "listen, listen, listen, and just play" comes up every time we get into technique questions. Fine. But let's not ridicule the people who *want* to have a conversation about the specifics. If it's not your cuppa tea, why not give it a rest.
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
Yay, Will!
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Saw John Prine last night. Got my dose of "grumbly beans." Which go well with sore hands, knees, and back after three days of roofing. Ugh.
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
don't know who the "give it a rest" was aimed at Will but no ridicule here from me.have apologized and tried to make sense of my feelings on it but like I said above, am all on for discussion
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by banjaxed
Re: slurs vs. individual
I agree also Will. But my retort of listen listen listen has never been to discourage people from having conversations about the specifics, rather it was born out of people who want conversations about specifics, but have not listened first. A typical one being, "I've got such and such a tune on a CD and I love it to bits. Does anyone have the music?"
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by ...
Re: slurs vs. individual
No worries banjaxed. It wasn't really "aimed" at any specific person (why does Michael's name keep coming to mind?
or post, just a general plea for letting technique discussions go forward. I appreciate the context you brought to this.
Just thinking out loud now, and not meaning to beat the dead horse, but it occurs to me that no one objects when someone asks how to keep your pegs from sticking or how to mute a whistle for after hours practice, etc. No one says, "Ignore the bliddy pegs and just play."
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
LOL -- poor Michael. It's a good thing you can take the abuse, Michael Gill! ;)
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Well isn't that the strangest of coincidences !
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4984/comments#comment105056
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by BegF
Re: slurs vs. individual
hehe, is there a "wry smilie"?
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: slurs vs. individual
Speak of the divil!
I wouldn't presume someone hasn't listened just because they're asking for the dots or ideas about bowing. Myabe they've listened for years and they still can't hear it. Not an auspicious start, but who am I to tell them not to keep trying and maybe even lend them a hand.
I come at this from years of teaching music and realizing that while most people are able to intuitively learn to listen and play, a few people need to be taught step-by-step some of the basics. Once you give them a hand, they're off and running. Out of hundreds of students, I've met only one who just couldn't get it, and even he was happy to keep trying (even after I suggested he take up welding or model sailboat making).
The analogy for me is my own son, who has a an IQ in the 130 range but also a learning disability and was falling behind in school because no one ever taught him reading comprehension. Our schools hand "easy" books to kids, teach a little vocabulary and phonics, and then expect them to figure the rest of it out. Most do, by making inferences, gradually sussing things out from the context, and learning by trial and error. But some kids can't do this on their own. They need the skills and concepts fro reading comprhension broken down and explicitly taught. And it owrks. My son now reads as well as anyone and gets above average grades.
I'm not suggesting that people looking for pointers on bowing or anything else are somehow learning disabled. But neither do I see the harm in exploring the details of what we do when we play music.
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
LOL BegF! That's too funny!
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
Will, I also did not mean to ridicule either you or banjaxed.
In one of banjaxed's post, he mention the Cross Keys area. If anyone is ever in the north, a visit to the Cross Keys pub is highly suggested. It is a unique location and the sessions are brilliant. The times I have been there, there were at least 3 sessions going on at the same time.
# Posted on November 19th 2004 by Jode
Re: slurs vs. individual
Note from a guitar player: Interesting that the fiddle, like the guitar, generates so many different opinions on right hand technique.
# Posted on November 19th 2004 by ceciltguitar
Re: slurs vs. individual
No harm, no foul, Jode.
Most of my thoughts about playing fiddle have come out of time spent trying to explain to students what I'm doing when I play. Analyzing technique to death is not something I do when I'm playing. But neither does being aware of the details interfere with my playing. In fact, I think it helps to go through cycles of reflection and maybe even dissection on your own playing from time to time. Over the years, I've paused to reconsider how I do bowed triplets, rolls, cut notes, and how I hold the bow, how I use my right hand, posture--all sorts of specifics. And in every case I've come away with improvements and new ways of doing things that add chops to my playing. I'm not sure how you'd do that without consciously thinking about and picking apart the details now and then.
And my long-range ambition, if I have one at all, is to still be playing the music I love 40 years from now, but not playing it the same way I play it today. So musical change and growth are important to me.
# Posted on November 19th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
Me too Will on the still playing in 40 years idea.
I definitely have considered my own playing, and things like posture and bow hold. And I am happy to say that I improve every year. Recent growth has come from learning new music and playing with some great musicians. I have not deconstructed my physical techniques in some time.
But it seems to me that some people are better at analyzing what they are doing than others. Maybe it is just the effort that goes into it. Perhaps after I teach for awhile, students will ask me enough questions that I will be able to explain minute details.
# Posted on November 20th 2004 by Jode
To continue, you can learn and improve without the discection. In the last year and a half, my playing has improved dramatically. And I have not stopped to consider my form or style.
I take that back. I did record myself and listen back to it last year. After hearing it, I revised some of my approaches to bowing. But that was achieved by ear more than by an examination of technique.
Again, I am not saying that one cannot benefit from analysis. I am just making a point that you can still progress without analyzing your technique.
# Posted on November 20th 2004 by Jode
Re: slurs vs. individual
I'd say almost all analysis of your playing has to be "by ear." What I mean by dissection is listening critically to yourself and trying different things till you get the sound you want. The more you listen to the details, the better you can get. Sometimes it helps (me, at least) to try to put it into words as well. Sometimes not. And some things musical just don't lend themselves to words.
I've heard stories from some brilliant, accomplished musicians about how they periodically revisit different aspects of their playing or understanding of music. It's a continual learning process--however you go about it.
# Posted on November 20th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
I once spent a New Year's at a friend's house in Aspen (very chi chi!). I ate dinner next to the owner of a famous ski maker. Making conversation, and since I'd just begun skiing at that point (and gave it up later), I asked him, "what do I need to know about learning to ski?" He said, "Learn to ski as if you want to still be skiing when you're 80 years old."
I don't know that that had anything to do with Will's comment, but it seemed like it somehow. Obviously I'm sleep deprived.
# Posted on November 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
P.S. Jode, what a treat it must be to play with Paddy O'Brien! The ceili band sounds great and looks like a lot of fun. I often wish we had a resident tune and tradition guru here in Helena. Sigh.
# Posted on November 20th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
That, and ski to still be learning things when your 80. A good, good friend of mine (who presided over the vows between my wife and I) lived to be the oldest active ski instructor in the US at 81. He said he learned something new every year.
# Posted on November 20th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: slurs vs. individual
That was Wally Obermeyer, by the way.
I thought he was a very nice man.
# Posted on November 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: slurs vs. individual
Ah Will, you've seen through my guise. Paddy is really the source of my recent progress. And it is really just learning and relearning tunes that has helped me immensely in my playing. Obviously, he cannot teach me fiddle technique, so it really is all about the tunes themselves.
I once heard a story about the elder John Kelly. It was told that when he was in his decline, his sons would come and pick him up and bring him to sessions. Just the thought of it nearly made me cry and has motivated me to keep on learning and keep on playing. May my sons be so gracious.
Meanwhile, we are having good fun in Belfast. Lovely session at Madden's last night. Tonight, we are recovering. Last night, we were too proud to let jet lag take us, but tonight?
I guess this proves I am hooked on thesession.org. Checking in from Ireland of all things!!
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Jode