I'm another newcomer wanting to get into sessions.I'm trying to learn the bouzouki.One of the most noticeable things for a beginner are substitute chords etc.which make the music endlessly fascinating but can be a devil to spontaneously pick-up when your starting.Anyway I was wondering how that whole area works out in a session with other back-up instrumentalists.Do you try to follow what the others are doing or what?
Well, you don't want to have too many back up instruments in a session. Many here would say that one guitar or bouzouki type instrument would be enough, although I think you might get away with two (three at most) in a large session. That's one of the reasons I and probably many others have diverted to melody instruments.
I still work on back up from time to time. Chris Smith's (Our own Coyote Banjo) book "Celtic Back-Up for all Instrumentalists" published by Mel Bay is excellent. I'd thoroughly recommend it.
What too many backing players do is learn a few stock chord progressions using substitutions, jazz chords, or whatever, then run them into the ground out of habit whether they really fit the tune or not. These are handy tricks to know, but don't fall into this trap and you will be better loved over the long term!
The multiple backing player thing rarely works, IMHO, unless it's rehearsed.
I totally agree.Also there is no shortage of backing players who seem to be so caught up in their own playing they almost forget there's a tune going on.Like,if only they could get rid of that irritating noise in the background,theyd be grand...
all i can say is i'm trying to tread these waters carefully but at the same time i'm really getting into it.
I's say keep it simple, and try to vary the way you approach the task. Stop if you find yourself on unfamiliar ground. I would suggest listening to Alec Finn (of De Dannan)and earlier Planxty music for some guidelines. You'll find that simpler accompaniment works better than the Martin Cahill stuff in a session.
I play both melody and backing. I'm afraid you've got a long, hard slog ahead of you. It took me many more years to learn how to back tunes than to actually play them. Don't be put off though, because once you can do it, it's incredibly rewarding.
Bouzoukis are great for backing too. You can do a lot of one-finger chords and stuff, and counter melodies can sound nice and twangy. Don't be tempted to do anything too complicated. I find that a lot of the time you can get away with droning, often on a one-finger chord maybe for one part of a tune, then you can open out the harmony in the other part and "develop" it, then close it back up and "tread water" for a bit until your ear wants to hear something more. To use Michael's phrase: "less is more".
The fact that you can often get away with droning for long periods shows that your right hand work is more important than your left hand. If you like to watch your left hand, don't concentrate so much on chord shapes that you neglect to free your right hand of tension and keep a solid rhythm going. Your rhythm should be your first priority. You can harmonise a lot of tunes using just 3 chords. These 3 will be different depending on the mode. Of course there's a huge range of chords at your disposal, and you should learn them all (or rather, the ones you like the sound of and want to use in your playing) and know your instrument right the way up and down the neck so that you can create at will whatever harmony you're hearing in your head. However, you can survive in a session without a huge chord repertoire, which is why you should concentrate on your rhythm and timing. Learn to have faith in your inner metronome and use the weight of your arm and a flexible wrist to strum.
You'll find that if you inject energy into your playing, the melody players respond to it and the general playing intensifies. It can be a real buzz. On the other hand, if you're not really in the mood for playing and you keep messing up the chords, or you're dragging the rhythm, it can have a detrimental effect on a session - more so than one of the tune players having an off-day even. You've just got to be careful, and realise that you have a responsibility to other people in the group to learn their tunes and respect them.
If you don't know a tune, sometimes it's still possible to back it, but you need to drone quietly the 1st time through, or just shut up and listen. You can only really do this if you can hear that the tune has a really simple and obvious chord sequence. A lot of tunes have weird chord changes in funny places though, and if you don't know the tune but try and back it, the tune players will be able to tell you're not responding properly to the chord changes, even if they're not backers themselves. In these cases you should put your instrument down and listen. Imagine that you're playing instead, and work out some chords in your head. Learn the tune so that you can join in next time.
I'd find a backer in your area whose playing you like, and just listen to them and watch them in the session. Figure out what it is you like about their playing and work it into your own so that if you ever play together, you'll be able to gel with each other and work off each other's playing. Get tips off them. Doesn't matter if it's a guitarist or zouk player or whatever. You'll find that after a while you'll become familiar with their style, and you'll be able to predict where they're going next with the harmony. Then you can try strumming along quietly until your confidence builds up.
I often back tunes at our session with another guitarist. There are a few guitarists here, but we are all familiar with each other's playing now and backing together isn't usually a problem. If I see that the guitarist is, say, playing in G without a capo, I'll often capo my 5th fret and fill in his harmonies with counter melodies or something, so I'm not trampling all over his creative ideas. Or it could work the other way round. If the guitarist is playing with a capo, I sometimes take mine off and concentrate on the bass. It's great fun!
Oh my goodness!! I'm so disappointed. A posting by Dow that I can't find one thing to disagree with
"your right hand work is more important than your left hand" Say this to yourself ten times over before you start every tune.
"don't concentrate so much on chord shapes that you neglect to free your right hand of tension and keep a solid rhythm going." Say this twenty times.
"Your rhythm should be your first priority." Don't ever stop saying this to yourself. In fact I would say your rhythm should be your *only* priority. Everything else is secondary to the point of being unnecessary.
The following is not meant to discourage Cunnla (or any other aspiring backer) at all - playing with a good backer can be just as rewarding as playing with another tune player.
There is a session I regularly attend in London, which is normally backed by a guitarist. He is a very good backer, well known and well respected on the London circuit. For various reasons, he has been absent from this session of late. Most weeks, other guitarists has sat in for him - all good players. However, last week there was no backer at all, and I couldn't help noticing how refreshing it was to hear the space between the notes. There was plenty going on with the basses of a button accordion, drones of pipes and incidental harmonies between fiddles, banjo and mandolin (this session can sometimes get quite large), without guitar chords on top of it all.
I think this just emphasises Michael's point (Dow - Who is Michael??) that less is more. Being too eager to 'get stuck in' to a session can end up causing destructive interference - the overall sound becomes a blur, with a lower musical intensity (Excuse my mixing of scientific and pub terminology - I'm over-educated for my level of intellect).
A backer shouldn't hesitate to sit out altogether if they can't hear specific holes to plug their notes or chords into.
I have great respect for backers. They do not have the same freedom that a tune player has to experiment in situ, as a wrong chord, or more importantly, a missed beat, can ruin it all for the tune players. They have to do their homework. Us tunies (especially mandolin players, as no-one can hear us), on the other hand, get away with murder. Perhaps this is why I've never seriously followed up becoming a backer.
I think people in general should be kinder to backers and understand that they have to go through a long learning period as well - to get to the point where you know the tunes I mean. If you're a crap fiddler or a crap flute player, it's easy to hide behind other people and muddle along. If you're a backer, you're exposed and you can't hide. If you bugger up, people can tell. The problem is, you only realise how important this stuff is once you've attained a certain level of proficiency. I cringe to think of how many sessions I must have ruined in my early days just through not knowing. Arrgh
Thanks for all the good & helpful advices.It's a great help to know that others regard it as a long hard slog.I thought it was just me!!
I think it might be a good idea for backers to sometimes deliberately stay out of some tunes in a sesh just to vary it a little.I'm a great fan of unaccompanied music & sometimes it's lovely to hear the interactions between the instruments on their own.
Now where did i leave those old Planxty tapes...
Versatility - I played for awhile with a guitarist who is a master of droney tunings and jazzy chords and extended modal progressions. He is really good. But after awhile I found myself longing for a good steady piano player with lots of 3 chord tricks and walking bass lines - or failing that, the sound of one hand clapping...
Can I just say a lot of this stuff is applicable to the bodhran as well, as a "backing" instrument - just listening when you can't follow the tune; sitting out a few sets just for variety; playing simply rather than showing off, except when you're moving the tune along. Great stuff!
I could happily do without any back up.
The Music has embedded within it its own rhythm, so all these hangers-on guitar, bodhran and bouzouki players are totally superfluous, in fact are most often deleterious, to the execution of a good session.
That said, there are some superb backing players, of all three ilks, eg, Lisaniska, or whatever he's called (I've got you sussed, John!) Paddy Gallagher, who can really bring your eg flute playing alive, but they are few and far between and hard to get a hold of.
As usual I come to these discussions too late to add much of use. I would say that Dow has said nearly everything that needs to be said.
There will always be disagreement about the need for backing but there are a lot of melody players out there who do want a good accompanist at times.
If I am playing guitar in a session and there is another guitar I will only stick to the most basic chords if the other guitarist is watching me otherwise I try and follow them. Chord substitution and fancy base runs are best left alone when there are two backers. If the other backer is a bouzouki doing countermelodies it can be great fun but you need to know how the other person works/thinks for this not to end up as a mess.
Hmmm, Danny I know what you mean about "hangers-on", but you have to keep in mind that todays hangers-on could be tomorrow's good backers. Give them a bit of slack eh? The world has its fair share of hangers-on flute and fiddle players too. Some of them love to blame backers for their own rhythmic inconsistencies.
One of the best ways to get up to speed in sessions is to go along, listen, sit beside a player you like/want to learn off
and play what you know, and just listen when you don’t.
This is fine for melody instruments, but for backers next to impossible.
One, unlike melody players a bad or inexperienced backer can ruin a session.
Two, many sessions just want the one backer, so the situation where a melody player can sit beside
an experienced player to learn off isn’t going to present itself as obviously.
Learning off CD’s/instructional videos/tutors can be helpful but not ideal.
There really is only one thing for it, take some time out from backing.
Learn a melody instrument, learn the tunes, this will help your backing.
Firstly it will allow you to get into session playing sooner, secondly knowing the tunes
as they are rather than as chord progressions is going to help your playing no end, thirdly
picking the notes is going to enhance your playing style rather than strumming alone.
It seems to me that you with a bouzouki you’ve got a two-in-one instrument.
I'm afraid Beg is right. Really the only way is to learn the tunes. Cunnia, you say you have trouble spontaneously picking up chords. The simple reason reason for this is that you don't know the tune.
I played the bazouki for a few years befor I took up the fiddle, but as I was young and brash, I just tried to run befor I could walk, launching into sessions in full strum mode. Luckily for me, people had patience and I was persuaded to learn a melody instrument.
The thing about diddly music that sets it apart from Jazz, say, is that it is all in the tune. Where as jazz "is" chord progressions and melody and bass lines etc all working in harmony, diddley is pure melody. That's not to say that it isn't stuffed to the brim with fabulous chord progressions (though not as complex as most jazz), rythm and bass lines, it's just that all these are contained within the tunes. If your goal is to accentuate these chord, rythms, bass lines etc, as should be the goal of any backer, there really is no alternetive but to know these melodies inside out.
Why do people want to play chords before they can play the tune? (Easy option?).
Is it the right way to do things?
Can you play the chords without knowing the tune (gifted musicians excepted)?
"How do the chords go for that tune?"
An oft asked question which has as many replies as there are notes in the tune. (Which in itself is impossible to pin down as it has a different amount of notes every time you play it anyway).
The thing is, these tunes don't have "chords" to them in the conventional sense, like a pop song would.
"Don't use a static chord sequence when accompanying (two bars of D,
boom-chuck-a-chuck, two bars of G, boom-chuck-a-chuck, etc.), but instead
to try to build up a moving line of accompaniment, using different chord
voicings, bass runs, occasional counter-melodies, and so on, in order to
highlight the changes in the melody. And vary what you do.
A certain amount of melody playing is essential for several
reasons. Familiarity with melodic structure is obviously useful when
backing tunes on the fly, and an insight into the melody player's role
helps to develop that vital bond between melody player and accompanist."
"Next try developing some harmonic ideas. First just play one or two notes
per bar--doesn't matter whether they are bass notes or not. Then when the
tune repeats, try adding some more notes. Listen, and decide what works
best, without getting hung up on asking yourself what the "chord" is. By
paring your playing down to the minimum and then building it up again, you
should develop a style that is rooted in the melody, rather than adapting
an existing style. Experiment with alternatives to the harmonies that you
use. There is a lot of repetition in the melodic structure, but it's done
in such a way that variations are constantly introduced--you should aim to
do the same with your accompaniment."
thats's right. It's important to realise that melody, harmony and chords are really all one in the same. If you think of a chord as a stack of notes, then knock the stack over and you have a line of notes, or melody. The only difference between a chord and a melody is that you play all the notes at once. And with diddly music, the trick is not to just to bang out stacks of notes, but to explore all that area in between the stack being toppled and it hitting the ground.
Never forgeting to remember, ofcourse, that the tune is kingn
Following on from BegF, Paul de Grae has written a very good tutor for playing guitar in trad, both melody and back up. I'd say quite a lot of it will be useful for bouzouki players too.
This is all brilliant stuff.I must say that even though ive loved trad for years ive just started in the last year to learn it proper.So my song-based background is full of block chords & it does take a psychic revolution to get out of this approach.
It's true there is no substitute for knowing the tunes.I've got The Mountain Road down,now just lemme loose on The Foxhunters.
I find that EADG works best for playing tne tunes while I rather DADG for backing.So I guess it means keep re-tuning those bottom strings.
However it's mainly for guitar.
The Chris Smith book is also excellent, because it forces you to make up the exercises yourself, rather than follow religiously follow the tab, and it's for all backup instruments - however it wouldn't be for beginners.
If you would also like to put in substitution chords (meaning relative minors for majors eg. bminor for Dmajor) then you can use this sequence:
I ii IV V vi
Translated could mean: D- eminor-Gmajor-Amajor-bminor (eminor is the relative minor for G)- I learned this way of thinking of the chords from a Zan McLeod CD- it saves the steps of having to mmentally think of relative minors.
Your making this all too complicated with your substitutions and relative minors ect. It's not jazz. And don't try to think in chord progressions 1 4 5 ect. You will be imposing structure on to a tune that is not there. It might work, technically, on some of the more simple tunes, but you will be disguising the subtlety of the melody rather than enhancing it. I stress again, ther melody is king
On bouzouki ( in GDAE) it's sound great.
Michael => i don't want just chords progression but all tips can be sound. I like a very good octave mandolin player in Paris (Guillaume Leriche) who plays with a lot of moving bass and it's sound cool, but it's difficult for me to play like him
While i agree with Michael and others about not relying on chord progressions,i dont think they should be dis-regarded neither.I think if the progression fits a particular tune then great.The trouble is when you try to fit a tune into a chord progression.
Gerry McKee(of Nomos fame) is a fine example of a bouzouki player who primarily uses chord structures.Ive never heard him play counter melodies or bass parts etc.He seems to play pretty simple chords but alternates them with various structures of the same chord to brilliant effect.His right hand tends to follow or play off the rhythm of the tune rather than a standard rhythm imposed on the tune.He is just one example i can think of,of someone using chords primarily but still very much locked into the tune.
gerry's a great player in my book too and the simple thing that stands him out (with big names and small names in the same pot) is 'passion' _an important big word i haven't seen anywhere yet
it's so simple, but you have to be patient with it and trust your own instincts
'listen' and learn the music as best you can, but most importantlly 'play it'' with sincerity, play it from the heart, play it with passion and i tell you, no-one on this website, in the pub or anywhere on the planet can touch you
The right way of backing up a session?
The right way of backing up a session?
I'm another newcomer wanting to get into sessions.I'm trying to learn the bouzouki.One of the most noticeable things for a beginner are substitute chords etc.which make the music endlessly fascinating but can be a devil to spontaneously pick-up when your starting.Anyway I was wondering how that whole area works out in a session with other back-up instrumentalists.Do you try to follow what the others are doing or what?
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by cunnla
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Well, you don't want to have too many back up instruments in a session. Many here would say that one guitar or bouzouki type instrument would be enough, although I think you might get away with two (three at most) in a large session. That's one of the reasons I and probably many others have diverted to melody instruments.
I still work on back up from time to time. Chris Smith's (Our own Coyote Banjo) book "Celtic Back-Up for all Instrumentalists" published by Mel Bay is excellent. I'd thoroughly recommend it.
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
What too many backing players do is learn a few stock chord progressions using substitutions, jazz chords, or whatever, then run them into the ground out of habit whether they really fit the tune or not. These are handy tricks to know, but don't fall into this trap and you will be better loved over the long term!
The multiple backing player thing rarely works, IMHO, unless it's rehearsed.
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by kris
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
I totally agree.Also there is no shortage of backing players who seem to be so caught up in their own playing they almost forget there's a tune going on.Like,if only they could get rid of that irritating noise in the background,theyd be grand...
all i can say is i'm trying to tread these waters carefully but at the same time i'm really getting into it.
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by cunnla
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
I's say keep it simple, and try to vary the way you approach the task. Stop if you find yourself on unfamiliar ground. I would suggest listening to Alec Finn (of De Dannan)and earlier Planxty music for some guidelines. You'll find that simpler accompaniment works better than the Martin Cahill stuff in a session.
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by Backer
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
I play both melody and backing. I'm afraid you've got a long, hard slog ahead of you. It took me many more years to learn how to back tunes than to actually play them. Don't be put off though, because once you can do it, it's incredibly rewarding.
Bouzoukis are great for backing too. You can do a lot of one-finger chords and stuff, and counter melodies can sound nice and twangy. Don't be tempted to do anything too complicated. I find that a lot of the time you can get away with droning, often on a one-finger chord maybe for one part of a tune, then you can open out the harmony in the other part and "develop" it, then close it back up and "tread water" for a bit until your ear wants to hear something more. To use Michael's phrase: "less is more".
The fact that you can often get away with droning for long periods shows that your right hand work is more important than your left hand. If you like to watch your left hand, don't concentrate so much on chord shapes that you neglect to free your right hand of tension and keep a solid rhythm going. Your rhythm should be your first priority. You can harmonise a lot of tunes using just 3 chords. These 3 will be different depending on the mode. Of course there's a huge range of chords at your disposal, and you should learn them all (or rather, the ones you like the sound of and want to use in your playing) and know your instrument right the way up and down the neck so that you can create at will whatever harmony you're hearing in your head. However, you can survive in a session without a huge chord repertoire, which is why you should concentrate on your rhythm and timing. Learn to have faith in your inner metronome and use the weight of your arm and a flexible wrist to strum.
You'll find that if you inject energy into your playing, the melody players respond to it and the general playing intensifies. It can be a real buzz. On the other hand, if you're not really in the mood for playing and you keep messing up the chords, or you're dragging the rhythm, it can have a detrimental effect on a session - more so than one of the tune players having an off-day even. You've just got to be careful, and realise that you have a responsibility to other people in the group to learn their tunes and respect them.
If you don't know a tune, sometimes it's still possible to back it, but you need to drone quietly the 1st time through, or just shut up and listen. You can only really do this if you can hear that the tune has a really simple and obvious chord sequence. A lot of tunes have weird chord changes in funny places though, and if you don't know the tune but try and back it, the tune players will be able to tell you're not responding properly to the chord changes, even if they're not backers themselves. In these cases you should put your instrument down and listen. Imagine that you're playing instead, and work out some chords in your head. Learn the tune so that you can join in next time.
I'd find a backer in your area whose playing you like, and just listen to them and watch them in the session. Figure out what it is you like about their playing and work it into your own so that if you ever play together, you'll be able to gel with each other and work off each other's playing. Get tips off them. Doesn't matter if it's a guitarist or zouk player or whatever. You'll find that after a while you'll become familiar with their style, and you'll be able to predict where they're going next with the harmony. Then you can try strumming along quietly until your confidence builds up.
I often back tunes at our session with another guitarist. There are a few guitarists here, but we are all familiar with each other's playing now and backing together isn't usually a problem. If I see that the guitarist is, say, playing in G without a capo, I'll often capo my 5th fret and fill in his harmonies with counter melodies or something, so I'm not trampling all over his creative ideas. Or it could work the other way round. If the guitarist is playing with a capo, I sometimes take mine off and concentrate on the bass. It's great fun!
Good luck!
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Oh my goodness!! I'm so disappointed. A posting by Dow that I can't find one thing to disagree with
"your right hand work is more important than your left hand" Say this to yourself ten times over before you start every tune.
"don't concentrate so much on chord shapes that you neglect to free your right hand of tension and keep a solid rhythm going." Say this twenty times.
"Your rhythm should be your first priority." Don't ever stop saying this to yourself. In fact I would say your rhythm should be your *only* priority. Everything else is secondary to the point of being unnecessary.
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by Tusong200
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Sorry Tusong I have to disagree with you on your last point about other aspects of your playing being "unnecessary"
You need to get the chords right as well if you're a backer otherwise you're going to annoy the tune players.
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
The following is not meant to discourage Cunnla (or any other aspiring backer) at all - playing with a good backer can be just as rewarding as playing with another tune player.
There is a session I regularly attend in London, which is normally backed by a guitarist. He is a very good backer, well known and well respected on the London circuit. For various reasons, he has been absent from this session of late. Most weeks, other guitarists has sat in for him - all good players. However, last week there was no backer at all, and I couldn't help noticing how refreshing it was to hear the space between the notes. There was plenty going on with the basses of a button accordion, drones of pipes and incidental harmonies between fiddles, banjo and mandolin (this session can sometimes get quite large), without guitar chords on top of it all.
I think this just emphasises Michael's point (Dow - Who is Michael??) that less is more. Being too eager to 'get stuck in' to a session can end up causing destructive interference - the overall sound becomes a blur, with a lower musical intensity (Excuse my mixing of scientific and pub terminology - I'm over-educated for my level of intellect).
A backer shouldn't hesitate to sit out altogether if they can't hear specific holes to plug their notes or chords into.
I have great respect for backers. They do not have the same freedom that a tune player has to experiment in situ, as a wrong chord, or more importantly, a missed beat, can ruin it all for the tune players. They have to do their homework. Us tunies (especially mandolin players, as no-one can hear us), on the other hand, get away with murder. Perhaps this is why I've never seriously followed up becoming a backer.
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
I think people in general should be kinder to backers and understand that they have to go through a long learning period as well - to get to the point where you know the tunes I mean. If you're a crap fiddler or a crap flute player, it's easy to hide behind other people and muddle along. If you're a backer, you're exposed and you can't hide. If you bugger up, people can tell. The problem is, you only realise how important this stuff is once you've attained a certain level of proficiency. I cringe to think of how many sessions I must have ruined in my early days just through not knowing. Arrgh
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Thanks for all the good & helpful advices.It's a great help to know that others regard it as a long hard slog.I thought it was just me!!
I think it might be a good idea for backers to sometimes deliberately stay out of some tunes in a sesh just to vary it a little.I'm a great fan of unaccompanied music & sometimes it's lovely to hear the interactions between the instruments on their own.
Now where did i leave those old Planxty tapes...
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by cunnla
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Versatility - I played for awhile with a guitarist who is a master of droney tunings and jazzy chords and extended modal progressions. He is really good. But after awhile I found myself longing for a good steady piano player with lots of 3 chord tricks and walking bass lines - or failing that, the sound of one hand clapping...
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by kris
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Can I just say a lot of this stuff is applicable to the bodhran as well, as a "backing" instrument - just listening when you can't follow the tune; sitting out a few sets just for variety; playing simply rather than showing off, except when you're moving the tune along. Great stuff!
\())
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by greenman
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
I could happily do without any back up.
The Music has embedded within it its own rhythm, so all these hangers-on guitar, bodhran and bouzouki players are totally superfluous, in fact are most often deleterious, to the execution of a good session.
That said, there are some superb backing players, of all three ilks, eg, Lisaniska, or whatever he's called (I've got you sussed, John!) Paddy Gallagher, who can really bring your eg flute playing alive, but they are few and far between and hard to get a hold of.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
As usual I come to these discussions too late to add much of use. I would say that Dow has said nearly everything that needs to be said.
There will always be disagreement about the need for backing but there are a lot of melody players out there who do want a good accompanist at times.
If I am playing guitar in a session and there is another guitar I will only stick to the most basic chords if the other guitarist is watching me otherwise I try and follow them. Chord substitution and fancy base runs are best left alone when there are two backers. If the other backer is a bouzouki doing countermelodies it can be great fun but you need to know how the other person works/thinks for this not to end up as a mess.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by Donough
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Hmmm, Danny I know what you mean about "hangers-on", but you have to keep in mind that todays hangers-on could be tomorrow's good backers. Give them a bit of slack eh? The world has its fair share of hangers-on flute and fiddle players too. Some of them love to blame backers for their own rhythmic inconsistencies.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
That's true Dow - maybe I made a sweeping generalisation - but some will never improve.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
One of the best ways to get up to speed in sessions is to go along, listen, sit beside a player you like/want to learn off
and play what you know, and just listen when you don’t.
This is fine for melody instruments, but for backers next to impossible.
One, unlike melody players a bad or inexperienced backer can ruin a session.
Two, many sessions just want the one backer, so the situation where a melody player can sit beside
an experienced player to learn off isn’t going to present itself as obviously.
Learning off CD’s/instructional videos/tutors can be helpful but not ideal.
There really is only one thing for it, take some time out from backing.
Learn a melody instrument, learn the tunes, this will help your backing.
Firstly it will allow you to get into session playing sooner, secondly knowing the tunes
as they are rather than as chord progressions is going to help your playing no end, thirdly
picking the notes is going to enhance your playing style rather than strumming alone.
It seems to me that you with a bouzouki you’ve got a two-in-one instrument.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by BegF
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
I'm afraid Beg is right. Really the only way is to learn the tunes. Cunnia, you say you have trouble spontaneously picking up chords. The simple reason reason for this is that you don't know the tune.
I played the bazouki for a few years befor I took up the fiddle, but as I was young and brash, I just tried to run befor I could walk, launching into sessions in full strum mode. Luckily for me, people had patience and I was persuaded to learn a melody instrument.
The thing about diddly music that sets it apart from Jazz, say, is that it is all in the tune. Where as jazz "is" chord progressions and melody and bass lines etc all working in harmony, diddley is pure melody. That's not to say that it isn't stuffed to the brim with fabulous chord progressions (though not as complex as most jazz), rythm and bass lines, it's just that all these are contained within the tunes. If your goal is to accentuate these chord, rythms, bass lines etc, as should be the goal of any backer, there really is no alternetive but to know these melodies inside out.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by ...
Re: The wrong way of backing up a session?
Why do people want to play chords before they can play the tune? (Easy option?).
Is it the right way to do things?
Can you play the chords without knowing the tune (gifted musicians excepted)?
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
"How do the chords go for that tune?"
An oft asked question which has as many replies as there are notes in the tune. (Which in itself is impossible to pin down as it has a different amount of notes every time you play it anyway).
The thing is, these tunes don't have "chords" to them in the conventional sense, like a pop song would.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by ...
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
I think this is good advice from Paul de Grae:
"Don't use a static chord sequence when accompanying (two bars of D,
boom-chuck-a-chuck, two bars of G, boom-chuck-a-chuck, etc.), but instead
to try to build up a moving line of accompaniment, using different chord
voicings, bass runs, occasional counter-melodies, and so on, in order to
highlight the changes in the melody. And vary what you do.
A certain amount of melody playing is essential for several
reasons. Familiarity with melodic structure is obviously useful when
backing tunes on the fly, and an insight into the melody player's role
helps to develop that vital bond between melody player and accompanist."
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by BegF
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
sorry, I left this out...
"Next try developing some harmonic ideas. First just play one or two notes
per bar--doesn't matter whether they are bass notes or not. Then when the
tune repeats, try adding some more notes. Listen, and decide what works
best, without getting hung up on asking yourself what the "chord" is. By
paring your playing down to the minimum and then building it up again, you
should develop a style that is rooted in the melody, rather than adapting
an existing style. Experiment with alternatives to the harmonies that you
use. There is a lot of repetition in the melodic structure, but it's done
in such a way that variations are constantly introduced--you should aim to
do the same with your accompaniment."
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by BegF
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
thats's right. It's important to realise that melody, harmony and chords are really all one in the same. If you think of a chord as a stack of notes, then knock the stack over and you have a line of notes, or melody. The only difference between a chord and a melody is that you play all the notes at once. And with diddly music, the trick is not to just to bang out stacks of notes, but to explore all that area in between the stack being toppled and it hitting the ground.
Never forgeting to remember, ofcourse, that the tune is kingn
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by ...
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Following on from BegF, Paul de Grae has written a very good tutor for playing guitar in trad, both melody and back up. I'd say quite a lot of it will be useful for bouzouki players too.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by SL*
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
This is all brilliant stuff.I must say that even though ive loved trad for years ive just started in the last year to learn it proper.So my song-based background is full of block chords & it does take a psychic revolution to get out of this approach.
It's true there is no substitute for knowing the tunes.I've got The Mountain Road down,now just lemme loose on The Foxhunters.
I find that EADG works best for playing tne tunes while I rather DADG for backing.So I guess it means keep re-tuning those bottom strings.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by cunnla
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
By the way ,whats the name of the Paul de Grae tutor
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by cunnla
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
You'll find it here:
http://www.cranfordpub.com/books/degrae.htm
However it's mainly for guitar.
The Chris Smith book is also excellent, because it forces you to make up the exercises yourself, rather than follow religiously follow the tab, and it's for all backup instruments - however it wouldn't be for beginners.
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by BegF
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Hi,
About the Chris Smith CD, i've got a problem to read the CD on my computer. It's only work on my hifi chain. You Too ?
I try to understand what Chris smith said, but i understand well, there is 4 mods in Celtic music :
Dorian, Ionien, Myxolydien, Aeolien.
But, for me when i try to back up a tune, i work with chords progression like this :
I-IV-V or I-IV-I-V
have you got other chords progression ?
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Mandolman
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
If you would also like to put in substitution chords (meaning relative minors for majors eg. bminor for Dmajor) then you can use this sequence:
I ii IV V vi
Translated could mean: D- eminor-Gmajor-Amajor-bminor (eminor is the relative minor for G)- I learned this way of thinking of the chords from a Zan McLeod CD- it saves the steps of having to mmentally think of relative minors.
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by CC
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Your making this all too complicated with your substitutions and relative minors ect. It's not jazz. And don't try to think in chord progressions 1 4 5 ect. You will be imposing structure on to a tune that is not there. It might work, technically, on some of the more simple tunes, but you will be disguising the subtlety of the melody rather than enhancing it. I stress again, ther melody is king
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by ...
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Tanks CC.
On bouzouki ( in GDAE) it's sound great.
Michael => i don't want just chords progression but all tips can be sound. I like a very good octave mandolin player in Paris (Guillaume Leriche) who plays with a lot of moving bass and it's sound cool, but it's difficult for me to play like him
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Mandolman
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Why would you want to play like someone else?
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by ...
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
First we must learn to look like someone else, then play like someone else....den we get de wimm-annnn !
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by BegF
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
Michael = >Why not ?
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Mandolman
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
While i agree with Michael and others about not relying on chord progressions,i dont think they should be dis-regarded neither.I think if the progression fits a particular tune then great.The trouble is when you try to fit a tune into a chord progression.
Gerry McKee(of Nomos fame) is a fine example of a bouzouki player who primarily uses chord structures.Ive never heard him play counter melodies or bass parts etc.He seems to play pretty simple chords but alternates them with various structures of the same chord to brilliant effect.His right hand tends to follow or play off the rhythm of the tune rather than a standard rhythm imposed on the tune.He is just one example i can think of,of someone using chords primarily but still very much locked into the tune.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by cunnla
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
gerry's a great player in my book too and the simple thing that stands him out (with big names and small names in the same pot) is 'passion' _an important big word i haven't seen anywhere yet
it's so simple, but you have to be patient with it and trust your own instincts
'listen' and learn the music as best you can, but most importantlly 'play it'' with sincerity, play it from the heart, play it with passion and i tell you, no-one on this website, in the pub or anywhere on the planet can touch you
enough said
# Posted on December 4th 2004 by lisaniska
Re: The right way of backing up a session?
i've just remembered a great piece of advice i received from sean casey years ago when attempting to play some tunes on the guitar _he said :
''listen to the note, each note has a value, play the note''
which made me think, for the very first time, about the importance of a note in terms of it's 'value'
a valuable lesson
which i think can be streached to backers as well
# Posted on December 4th 2004 by lisaniska