People who cut & paste from Henrik Norbeck's website should be forced to listen to Celtic compilation CDs every day for the rest of their lives. Discuss.
People who go to Henrik Norbeck's online tune index and directly copy a tune in abc format onto *this* website, should be punished by being forced to listen to those Celtic muzak compilation CDs with the soothing enya synths and sweet-sounding whistles.
I think it's not only a copout on the part of the tune submitter (any person off the street could then potentially submit tune here, even if they were non-musicians), I also think it's actually morally wrong because it's plagiarism. It's making a direct copy of someone's hard work (which they have been nice enough to make public and not "lock" it in some way) and passing it off as your own. It makes me worry about society in general, and it makes me want to get on my soapbox and preach
That's not even to mention the implications for the tradition. It's so much easier to circulate the same setting between websites online than to sit down and do your own work and write your own transcription. It means that there's a lack of diversity of settings online because people are happy to use the same transcription as everyone else. End of rant - off to a session now.
So what do those of us do who have no clue about transcribing in ABC do? I'd rather use my time to play tunes than learn ABC. Not that I post or do anything else with ABC stuff. Just wanted to toss out a flame
I agree with Dow. What is the point in making these sort of "submissions". Better to put in your version and post a link in the comments section to Norbeck's version or some other version that you have come across.
Submissions need to be about how you 'hear' the tune. Not some semi-'definitive' version.
Enjoy your Sunday afternoon session Dow!
I'm with meemtp - can't make head nor tail of ABC, and life is too short to learn it when there is an almost universally accepted method (called staff notation, or dots) that is already accepted worldwide. I would probably be a real tune-posting bore if there was an easy way to use it on this site - however, I understand why ABC could be handy if you already know it.
But then I don't paste tunes from other sites, either.
Sometimes, I'll cheat too. I might transcribe either a written or ABC version of a tune into "ABC" for this site, because it's sometimes quicker and more convenient. However, I will still check it over and make sure that's the way I normally play(or learned)it. Then, I will amend it accordingly.
Of course, I've also directly transcribed tunes to "ABC" from my own playing which is the best way.
The other thing is that a posted ABC file shouldn't be the only way people learn tunes IMHO. So the idea that a lack of settings will prevail is only a fear if ABC files are the only way people are getting the tunes. Personally I'd rather get my tunes from recordings and other players. Doing that way, I get to hear at least 3 different settings of the tune.
Kris, I prefer to play from standard notation too but knowledge of "ABC" is very useful. It's very easy to compile the tune in "ABC" format and a good program like ABC2Win will quickly convert it into ordinary sheet music. So, I find it a useful, simple, and cheap way for preparing "sheet music".
You can get those too but I don't know enough to advise.
Yes, "writing it down" is easy. I'm thinking of good quality "non handwritten" sheet music which you can now create for yourself on a PC with various music notation programs. I use some of these too but I can often find it quicker and easier to type it up in the ABC format and the ABC2Win program will convert and print it out for me. Of course, you can probably learn to to enter all the notes etc in the sheet music programs just as quickly. However, at the moment, I find my way easier.
I tried using Sibelius at school and it is really fiddly, so I just write things out myself. But sibelius can be good if I get a midi file off here and load it into it
B Parkin's Midi2ABC will convert a midi file to ABC. There are other programs, such as Intelliscore Polyphonic and other orchestration programs, which will produce a midi file from a score. So here you have a two-stage procedure to do the job.
I don't know of a program that will convert directly from the dots to ABC, but it should be possible since the two-stage procedure works.
When posting a tune in response to a request, I frequently cut and paste from abc collections (often Norbeck's, as it is a comprehensive and reliable source of session-friendly settings of tunes and accompanying information) - I always include a reference to the source in my comments. Sometimes I do this because the tune is not in my repertoire (Somebody must respond to the request, or else the tune requisitor is left with an unfulfilled request.), sometimes because my own version is too flexible to be notated. In any case, anyone is free too add their own setting in the comments section.
Anyway, Mark(Dow), I await the arrival of a consignment of Celtic compilation CDs through my letter box any day now... and I'll transcribe every tune thereon and post it in the tunes section.
Why post a tune if it's not in your repertoire? The whole point is that it should be, surely? Or have I misunderstood the whole point of this website?! I have had a tune on request for months, but rather than someone post HN's version, or the one in O'Neill's, I'd rather have an original transcription please, if anyone out there knows the tune. If I wanted the other versions, I'd simply go to those websites.
So what if you were looking for a tune here, and couldn't find it. Should you then, after finding on Norbeck's website, refrain from posting it here so that anyone else looking for it can find it here? Does Norbeck really object to this, or is Dow just objecting on his behalf, without asking him? What if you acknowledge the source? Surely Norbeck intends his and others' transcriptions for free distribution? It's not as if anyone's making a profit by re-posting tunes here.
And how come Dow knows so much about Celtic Compilations?
I cannot see there's any reason why you shouldn't post a tune that's been requested, even if it isn't in your current repertoire. And if you came across it on the Norbeck site or similar, there's no problem as long as you acknowledge the source.
Trevor
Because we know where Norbeck's site is. A direct copy of his work would be redundant and pointless, regardless of whether he "minds" or not. I'm sure he wouldn't mind. He has a username here, and I'm sure he's seen his work copied by people here and passed on as someone else's. God you lot just don't get it do you.
Which is worse - plagarising ITM tunes or posting Morris tunes?
(or any other genre bearing no resemblance to ITM)
P.S. Nothing against the Morris, I have been a Morris musician (say 20 Hail Marys) but don't think such tunes should be on this particular site.
You know what? Why not? Good idea Kenny. Well I've made a start already. Let's get this show on the road, people! Can someone post my one request please? It's a tune called "The Absent-minded Woman". It's on Norbeck's index, so it's okay, like, you don't have to know the tune or anything. I'd post it myself and *fulfil my own request* but I've already used up my quota for the day. So go on, please someone, I'll be so impressed because I won't even have to click on Norbeck's site on my favourites bar and make the effort to go and get the tune myself. And then when I learn the tune, it'll be exactly the same as everyone else's version, so at least it'll be good for a session. How exciting this so-called trad music is!
I occasionally plagiarize JCs ABC tune finder to fulfill requests, but only for tunes I know, and I check them through first to clean them up and fiddle with the notes to make them closer to the setting I play. I do this because JCs has loads of tunes, but the site isn't very user friendly and the tunes are often riddled with errors.
More often I peruse the request list for spelling mistakes for tunes that are already here and email a link to whoever posted the request, reminding them to cancel it now that they've found their tune. I see no reason a person couldn't email a link to Norbeck's site in the same fashion.
Trevor, the reason to not post a tune you don't play is to let someone who does play it get their turn. Early on I posted a few tunes new to me, to fulfill requests, but I didn't post them until I'd played them for about a week, to get some understanding of what those tunes were about. And even then I felt like I was cheating the tune out of its due.
It's important to post tunes "as played," not just as alphabet soup.
Sometimes I email people who've requested a tune to let them know that it's on JC's tune finder, rather than just copying it over to here. Sometimes I go find the tune, learn it, knock it around for a while, and then post it. But now I do that only if I'm confident that it's a sessionable setting. To me, that's the point of the archives here--a repository for settings of tunes as you might hear them played in sessions.
Besides, as good as they are, Norbeck's files are full of weird settings with no context--no explanation for accidentals (that may or may not show how the tune is actually played in Irish sessions), variations that sound more Scandanavian than Irish, etc. In the long run, I'd rather trust my ears than his abcs.
Lol, Mark, I can post Absent-minded Old Woman--one of the first tunes I ever learned. And I had the pleasure of playing it for Liz Carroll one night, and then watching her squirm because she couldn't remember what it was called. I had to duck after I told her its name.
Dow what happened to your discussion posting on plagiarism and the Atlantic Roar tune comments. I sent you a few bewildered remarks on the tune comment page and it has all disappeared this morning.
I wasn't dreaming honest.
Has Jeremy been deleting? -the ultimate punishment.
As the person who, I believe, sparked this discussion, with my posting of The Walls of Limerick a few days ago, I would like to make a few points.
Firstly, I hold onto the belief that I have done nothing 'immoral'. I stated clearly and barefacedly in my comments that the tune was taken from Henrik Norbeck's collection (thus dropping myself straight in the septic tank) - no different from quoting and referencing material in an essay.
Secondly, I posted this tune because it was relevant to a particular thread. The originator of the thread was in urgent need of a tune (admittedly, not *necessarily* this one) for a gig that night and I supplied him with one as quickly as possible. In retrospect, it would have been a better course of action to email him with the abc or a link to it at Henrik's site.
Thirdly, I take the point that posting transcriptions from elsewhere on the web uses up space at this site which could be put to better use. For this same reason, I have always made a point, when posting a tune not prompted by a request, of checking that the tune is not available elsewhere online in a similar setting. Contrary to the impression I may have inadvertently given with my comment earlier in this thread, I rarely post tunes nowadays, since most, if not all the tunes in my session repertoire have already been posted.
If the general consensus is, as it seems to be, that there are no circumstances under which posting a transcription from an existing collection is acceptable, then I shall happily refrain from doing so.
Punishments
Punishments
People who cut & paste from Henrik Norbeck's website should be forced to listen to Celtic compilation CDs every day for the rest of their lives. Discuss.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
::Confused::
Eh?
Cheers and making Christmas list because I can,
Armand
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by armandale
Re: Punishments
People who go to Henrik Norbeck's online tune index and directly copy a tune in abc format onto *this* website, should be punished by being forced to listen to those Celtic muzak compilation CDs with the soothing enya synths and sweet-sounding whistles.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
I think it's not only a copout on the part of the tune submitter (any person off the street could then potentially submit tune here, even if they were non-musicians), I also think it's actually morally wrong because it's plagiarism. It's making a direct copy of someone's hard work (which they have been nice enough to make public and not "lock" it in some way) and passing it off as your own. It makes me worry about society in general, and it makes me want to get on my soapbox and preach
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
That's not even to mention the implications for the tradition. It's so much easier to circulate the same setting between websites online than to sit down and do your own work and write your own transcription. It means that there's a lack of diversity of settings online because people are happy to use the same transcription as everyone else. End of rant - off to a session now.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
So what do those of us do who have no clue about transcribing in ABC do? I'd rather use my time to play tunes than learn ABC. Not that I post or do anything else with ABC stuff. Just wanted to toss out a flame
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by meemtp
Re: Punishments
NOW DOW, MAYBE SOMEONE ON THIS SITE LIKES CELTIC MUSIC COMP....... WAIT WHAT AM A SAYING????THAT STUFF IS SHITE!
AJ
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by berserker
Re: Punishments
I agree with Dow. What is the point in making these sort of "submissions". Better to put in your version and post a link in the comments section to Norbeck's version or some other version that you have come across.
Submissions need to be about how you 'hear' the tune. Not some semi-'definitive' version.
Enjoy your Sunday afternoon session Dow!
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Donough
Re: Punishments
I'm with meemtp - can't make head nor tail of ABC, and life is too short to learn it when there is an almost universally accepted method (called staff notation, or dots) that is already accepted worldwide. I would probably be a real tune-posting bore if there was an easy way to use it on this site - however, I understand why ABC could be handy if you already know it.
But then I don't paste tunes from other sites, either.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by kris
Re: Punishments
P.S. could someone please post a track listing for Celtic Panpipe Moods 3 on the recordings section when they have time. I'd be so grateful.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by kris
Re: Punishments
Sometimes, I'll cheat too. I might transcribe either a written or ABC version of a tune into "ABC" for this site, because it's sometimes quicker and more convenient. However, I will still check it over and make sure that's the way I normally play(or learned)it. Then, I will amend it accordingly.
Of course, I've also directly transcribed tunes to "ABC" from my own playing which is the best way.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Punishments
The other thing is that a posted ABC file shouldn't be the only way people learn tunes IMHO. So the idea that a lack of settings will prevail is only a fear if ABC files are the only way people are getting the tunes. Personally I'd rather get my tunes from recordings and other players. Doing that way, I get to hear at least 3 different settings of the tune.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by meemtp
Re: Punishments
Kris, I prefer to play from standard notation too but knowledge of "ABC" is very useful. It's very easy to compile the tune in "ABC" format and a good program like ABC2Win will quickly convert it into ordinary sheet music. So, I find it a useful, simple, and cheap way for preparing "sheet music".
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Punishments
John, I think what I need is something that converts sheetmusic to ABC! If I need to produce sheetmusic, I just write it down.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by kris
Re: Punishments
You can get those too but I don't know enough to advise.
Yes, "writing it down" is easy. I'm thinking of good quality "non handwritten" sheet music which you can now create for yourself on a PC with various music notation programs. I use some of these too but I can often find it quicker and easier to type it up in the ABC format and the ABC2Win program will convert and print it out for me. Of course, you can probably learn to to enter all the notes etc in the sheet music programs just as quickly. However, at the moment, I find my way easier.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Punishments
I tried using Sibelius at school and it is really fiddly, so I just write things out myself. But sibelius can be good if I get a midi file off here and load it into it
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by snowyowl
Re: Punishments
B Parkin's Midi2ABC will convert a midi file to ABC. There are other programs, such as Intelliscore Polyphonic and other orchestration programs, which will produce a midi file from a score. So here you have a two-stage procedure to do the job.
I don't know of a program that will convert directly from the dots to ABC, but it should be possible since the two-stage procedure works.
Trevor 15:20 GMT
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cutting and Pasting
When posting a tune in response to a request, I frequently cut and paste from abc collections (often Norbeck's, as it is a comprehensive and reliable source of session-friendly settings of tunes and accompanying information) - I always include a reference to the source in my comments. Sometimes I do this because the tune is not in my repertoire (Somebody must respond to the request, or else the tune requisitor is left with an unfulfilled request.), sometimes because my own version is too flexible to be notated. In any case, anyone is free too add their own setting in the comments section.
Anyway, Mark(Dow), I await the arrival of a consignment of Celtic compilation CDs through my letter box any day now... and I'll transcribe every tune thereon and post it in the tunes section.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Punishments
Why post a tune if it's not in your repertoire? The whole point is that it should be, surely? Or have I misunderstood the whole point of this website?! I have had a tune on request for months, but rather than someone post HN's version, or the one in O'Neill's, I'd rather have an original transcription please, if anyone out there knows the tune. If I wanted the other versions, I'd simply go to those websites.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
So what if you were looking for a tune here, and couldn't find it. Should you then, after finding on Norbeck's website, refrain from posting it here so that anyone else looking for it can find it here? Does Norbeck really object to this, or is Dow just objecting on his behalf, without asking him? What if you acknowledge the source? Surely Norbeck intends his and others' transcriptions for free distribution? It's not as if anyone's making a profit by re-posting tunes here.
And how come Dow knows so much about Celtic Compilations?
So many questions. We need to be told.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Bren
Re: Punishments
I cannot see there's any reason why you shouldn't post a tune that's been requested, even if it isn't in your current repertoire. And if you came across it on the Norbeck site or similar, there's no problem as long as you acknowledge the source.
Trevor
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Punishments
Because we know where Norbeck's site is. A direct copy of his work would be redundant and pointless, regardless of whether he "minds" or not. I'm sure he wouldn't mind. He has a username here, and I'm sure he's seen his work copied by people here and passed on as someone else's. God you lot just don't get it do you.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
Which is worse - plagarising ITM tunes or posting Morris tunes?
(or any other genre bearing no resemblance to ITM)
P.S. Nothing against the Morris, I have been a Morris musician (say 20 Hail Marys) but don't think such tunes should be on this particular site.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Punishments
Okay, fine, you guys are right. From now on my submissions are going to be lifted from elsewhere. It'll save me a lot of time.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
There, the deed is done. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em eh? Oo I can relax now, thanks.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
cigarette?
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Punishments
I think we should be getting away from the concept of "punishment". This isn't "that" sort of website :o
Trevor
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Punishments
If it’s acceptable to cut & paste from Norbeck or any other similar site, then why don’t you just go the whole hog and cut & paste the bloody lot?
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Kenny
Re: Punishments
You know what? Why not? Good idea Kenny. Well I've made a start already. Let's get this show on the road, people! Can someone post my one request please? It's a tune called "The Absent-minded Woman". It's on Norbeck's index, so it's okay, like, you don't have to know the tune or anything. I'd post it myself and *fulfil my own request* but I've already used up my quota for the day. So go on, please someone, I'll be so impressed because I won't even have to click on Norbeck's site on my favourites bar and make the effort to go and get the tune myself. And then when I learn the tune, it'll be exactly the same as everyone else's version, so at least it'll be good for a session. How exciting this so-called trad music is!
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
I occasionally plagiarize JCs ABC tune finder to fulfill requests, but only for tunes I know, and I check them through first to clean them up and fiddle with the notes to make them closer to the setting I play. I do this because JCs has loads of tunes, but the site isn't very user friendly and the tunes are often riddled with errors.
More often I peruse the request list for spelling mistakes for tunes that are already here and email a link to whoever posted the request, reminding them to cancel it now that they've found their tune. I see no reason a person couldn't email a link to Norbeck's site in the same fashion.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Punishments
Trevor, the reason to not post a tune you don't play is to let someone who does play it get their turn. Early on I posted a few tunes new to me, to fulfill requests, but I didn't post them until I'd played them for about a week, to get some understanding of what those tunes were about. And even then I felt like I was cheating the tune out of its due.
It's important to post tunes "as played," not just as alphabet soup.
Sometimes I email people who've requested a tune to let them know that it's on JC's tune finder, rather than just copying it over to here. Sometimes I go find the tune, learn it, knock it around for a while, and then post it. But now I do that only if I'm confident that it's a sessionable setting. To me, that's the point of the archives here--a repository for settings of tunes as you might hear them played in sessions.
Besides, as good as they are, Norbeck's files are full of weird settings with no context--no explanation for accidentals (that may or may not show how the tune is actually played in Irish sessions), variations that sound more Scandanavian than Irish, etc. In the long run, I'd rather trust my ears than his abcs.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Punishments
Why don't we move The Discussion to The Norbeck site.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Punishments
Will, great minds think alike :^)
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Punishments
Lol, Mark, I can post Absent-minded Old Woman--one of the first tunes I ever learned. And I had the pleasure of playing it for Liz Carroll one night, and then watching her squirm because she couldn't remember what it was called. I had to duck after I told her its name.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Punishments
...and share the same great sense of timing, Kerri.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Punishments
Yes, please do, Will, before some complete nobhead takes me seriously and does a cut & paste job.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
Will, thanks for that advice. I try now to post mostly tunes I've come across and transcribed from workshops and sessions.
Trevor
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Punishments
No, typing the url in each time I want to look at his website would be sad
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
Trevor, thank you. Because of you I've decided not to slash my wrists today.
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
I remember you mentioning your sister. Is she in Oz?
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Punishments
Dow what happened to your discussion posting on plagiarism and the Atlantic Roar tune comments. I sent you a few bewildered remarks on the tune comment page and it has all disappeared this morning.
I wasn't dreaming honest.
Has Jeremy been deleting? -the ultimate punishment.
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Donough
Re: Punishments
Trevor, sorry, didn't mean to single you out. Since you recovered from that bout of the Welshies, your tune posts (and comments) have been excellent.
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Punishments
As the person who, I believe, sparked this discussion, with my posting of The Walls of Limerick a few days ago, I would like to make a few points.
Firstly, I hold onto the belief that I have done nothing 'immoral'. I stated clearly and barefacedly in my comments that the tune was taken from Henrik Norbeck's collection (thus dropping myself straight in the septic tank) - no different from quoting and referencing material in an essay.
Secondly, I posted this tune because it was relevant to a particular thread. The originator of the thread was in urgent need of a tune (admittedly, not *necessarily* this one) for a gig that night and I supplied him with one as quickly as possible. In retrospect, it would have been a better course of action to email him with the abc or a link to it at Henrik's site.
Thirdly, I take the point that posting transcriptions from elsewhere on the web uses up space at this site which could be put to better use. For this same reason, I have always made a point, when posting a tune not prompted by a request, of checking that the tune is not available elsewhere online in a similar setting. Contrary to the impression I may have inadvertently given with my comment earlier in this thread, I rarely post tunes nowadays, since most, if not all the tunes in my session repertoire have already been posted.
If the general consensus is, as it seems to be, that there are no circumstances under which posting a transcription from an existing collection is acceptable, then I shall happily refrain from doing so.
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig