ok i am always encouraged to learn tunes by ear, of recordings and such. but then people tell me to develop my own style with ornamentation and variations and sutff like that. if you learn a tune off a recording, arent you copying someone elses style??? my question is how do you learn tunes but also put your own spin on them?
the problem with learning tunes off recordings is that you have no idea if the tune is even the original tune. I suggest finding the name, and looking up the sheet music. Learn it by ear if you want, but I found doing both really increases musical ability.
I started off only by ear and it was great, only because my teacher would teach me the basic tune, and I would put in my own ornamentaion. My new teacher forced me to learn how to read music, and I'm so happy because it's much easier.
@irish fiddler2: it is not wrong to copy. after you learned to play it by heart you will have several opportunities: play it a lot and play it slow/play with different settings of ornamentation/change swing, attack or what ever params you like to change. search for diffferent recordings of this particular tune and learn to play/copy it as well ... be sure, you will develop your own version ;o)
nevertheless: music reading is not a bad but as well not the better alternative
Of course you will end up sounding like some one else if you only learn tunes off them (I had that problem for a while with Kevin Burke, very common I'm afraid). The trick is to learn tunes off loads of people, especially tunes from different instruments, as crannog says.
But be careful about this "your own style" thing. If you are going to push the bounderies of this music, you must first totally imerse yourself in its traditional way of playing. Never push yourself to develop your own style, or you'll lose the music.
"the problem with learning tunes off recordings is that you have no idea if the tune is even the original tune. I suggest finding the name, and looking up the sheet music."
This assumes that the sheet music is in some way more authentic than the recording - this is not always the case.
I too was a litte aghast at that statement. It really is a rediculous thing to say and shows a basic ignorance of what diddly music is.
How can any version be more authentic. It's just such a contradictory concept. Is the oldest version the most authentic? Is it the version that was learned off the oldest player? Is it the version in O'Neils that was transcribed by the sergent who couldn't play?
Possibly, if we knew the composer and it was his/her version in print. However, even then, the composer of a tune (at least the diddly kind will possibly never play it the same way twice themselves or, at least, will vary it as time goes by.
I once suggested here before that the composer's version might be regarded as a definitive version but Will, who is a prolific composer of tunes, rejected this notion. He argued that a popularly played version of one of his tunes would be just as authentic as a trancribed version of his original.
And try to learn tunes off of people that you admire, or wouldn't mind sounding like. Tune selection is also very important. It does affect your style in the end. (If you learn all Donegal tunes by ear, you will end up with that style.) There are countless tunes out there, so pick the ones that really speak to you.
I am not sure how long you have been playing, but at the start, it is best to spend your energy on acquiring tunes, rather than learning one or two tunes deeply. The more tunes you know from various sources, the more you find out what you like, and what you would like to sound like.
And with versions, if you are going to learn a tune from a source, learn it in total. All this chat about "there is no authentic version" should not discourage you from fully learning a tune. Don't take short cuts because you think you can make up your own version!
Concerning paper versus recordings. In my experience, I would rely on the recording versus the paper (depending on the recording).
Jode, that's a good point about fully learning a tune. Learn all there is on the recording. As we know, it's a grey area what is tune or decoration or variation so learn it all. Don't tkae short cuts. If there is a bit you find you can't get, try harder
I just remember being frustrated by the "no true version" argument when I first heard it. Like, why work at learning a tune when you can just call what you have your own version!
When you are first learning, it is hard to hear all the notes. You learn the tune, and you think you have it, and then you listen again and you are still missing bits.
In fact, this still happens to me with complex tunes that I have not heard before, or haven't listened to enough. (listen, listen, listen)
All this to say that one should do their best to learn a particular version. And remember that you never stop learning!
I like to learn tunes off tapes I make of sessions, where it's really noisy and you can barely make out the tune. Then you're forced to make up the bits you can't hear, and voila! Your own version!
michael gill, Jode - nice dialogue. I couldn't agree more... I was about to post a response about Jode's third paragraph, then I refreshed my session and found that you guys had already written exactly was I was going to post... :^P
I have a comment about "acquiring tunes", though... when I was first starting out, my teacher told me to *not* learn a lot of tunes - just learn a few tunes and learn to play them well. I'm sure he was basing this on my lack of proficiency at my instrument.
Do you agree that each person and situation is different, and does your position on tune quantity vs. quality vary accordingly?
For me, it depends on what you mean by "playing it well." I have this friend who likes to learn tunes, and she tries to get everything. And she won't move on until she feels that she has everything (the tune with all the ornamentation and variations). Consequently, she doesn't know that many tunes and does not play much in the sessions.
When you are starting out, I think "playing well" constitutes playing the tune with an even tempo and with good rhythm. Ornamentation comes in next, and variations would be down the road.
Now, having said all that, I think everyone should have a party piece or two. A set of tunes that they love and really work on. A set that they can "perform" for friends and relatives.
Another thing. In my experience, I believe that I have learned more about my playing and about the music by learning new tunes, rather than discecting the tunes I already played.
Thanks for the reply, Jode. Looking back on the few years that I have been playing, I think I'm in the same boat as your friend. I, too, cannot play much in sessions because of my lack of repertoire.
However, all that time, I have taken my first teacher's words as gospel. I've worked hard to improve the quality of my tone, intonation, and rhythm (and still do work hard on it every day!!!). I regard this as "building a solid foundation" upon which to learn tunes. I perhaps could have learned more tunes sooner, but I feel that since I've approached my learning curve with years of patience (a word that I haven't seen used in this thread yet...), I'm better off now - six years into it.
By the way, I think this is a nice discussion - even though it has been covered many times in the past. It's always good to hear other people's perspectives - especially since every individual's situation is different. Thanks for submitting it irish_fiddler2.
Sorry, I have to ad to that that I was not always that way inclined. I've learned way too many tunes in the past and am now trying to forget them. (not that learning them in the first place didn't prbably help though)
Yeah Michael, maybe I should stop for a few years and relearn the early ones!
Bkessler. I can't fault you or your teacher for wanting perfection, and wanting to get a lovely sound. Just like my friend. I would not dream of chastizing her.
In balance, I guess I get more joy out of playing tunes with people than perfecting the sound of a particular tune. That's just me!
Ahhhh... another word I love to see when discussing learning, Jode! "Balance." Well said.
I would theorize that our respective individual positions on this topic are heavily influenced by our relative proficiencies at our instruments. I had barely gotten beyond playing my first note when my teacher gave me his advice. I would hazard a guess that your ability level far exceeds mine...
Gotta cruise. Thanks for the interesting dialogue... Brian
if you dont work on your tone and inflectoin and rhythm, all the tunes you know will amount to nothing. all the 30 or 40 tunes i used to know i dont play anymore, because i learned them wrong. i'm learning by ear now and i only play the ear learned ones, because i cant play in time on the old ones. whenever i resurrect an old one i have to spend a day or 2 on nothing but it to get it to work right. although it seems more rewarding ot learn a bunch of tunes poorly, it really doesnt help in the long run cuz once you get better you'll have a lot of trouble unlearning your bad habits in those tune. conquering bad habits in tunes you didnt know is challenging and fun, conquering bad habits in tunes you used to know is excruciating.
plus i dont see the point in playing if you sound bad and dont try to improve. sounding bad, having fun, and slowly getting better is great tho.
I think it's really a mixture of everything. Learn as many tunes as you can, from an abundance of people...once you understand how to play well, then that's when you start to put in your own style.
I don't think you should worry too much about developing a personal style. It's rather unavoidable. In fact, I think you'd have to work very diligently _not_ to sound like yourself. My personal style is: being a terrible fiddle player. I would love to develop more of a John Doherty sound. (I'd better get to work!)
Kerri's right - your personal style will happen whether you like it or not. Don't be afraid of experimenting - but don't go too far.
"if you learn a tune off a recording, arent you copying someone elses style???" only if you DO copy their style. There is a world of difference between learning a tune and copying the style of the person you learn from.
Some people's personal style actually IS to slavishly duplicate what they hear on a CD. At the other extreme, I know a fiddler whose personal style is to b*gger about with a tune so much that you can't make out what he's playing. Then when he gets to the end he smiles round patronisingly and says "I thought you knew that one". Yes - I knew that one, but his playing hid the tune.
Out of these ramblings and my experiences I'm trying to come up with a single sentence answer to irishfiddler2's question here. How about this: Don't work on your style, work on making the tune sound good, and your style will reveal itself.
I enjoy playing fiddle tunes on my guitar. I would like to hear feedback on tuning strings in different keys as opposed to using a capo. I would then have the whole fretboard to use and MORE real estate to work with. Any feedback would be appreciated ,and any tuning methods also.Please respond if you have experimented.Thanks!! Later......
Some voracious tune-dictionaries only learn the gist of a tune (probably 85% of it) and commit it upstairs on first hearing, often without playing it.
They have instant recall and can replay most of the tune back, the next time someone starts playing it.
Most of it is done by bluff and knowledge of the idiom (and practise at filing tunes away).
Personally, I file them away by tune-name and can remember whether a certain tune is a jig or reel, but if it has been 20 years since I heard it last, I sometimes need to hear a bit of the tune to recall it, but if it has been stored away, I can eventually recall and play it.
how to learn tunes.............
how to learn tunes.............
ok i am always encouraged to learn tunes by ear, of recordings and such. but then people tell me to develop my own style with ornamentation and variations and sutff like that. if you learn a tune off a recording, arent you copying someone elses style??? my question is how do you learn tunes but also put your own spin on them?
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by irish_fiddler2
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Play them a lot.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by s1m0n
Re: how to learn tunes.............
the problem with learning tunes off recordings is that you have no idea if the tune is even the original tune. I suggest finding the name, and looking up the sheet music. Learn it by ear if you want, but I found doing both really increases musical ability.
I started off only by ear and it was great, only because my teacher would teach me the basic tune, and I would put in my own ornamentaion. My new teacher forced me to learn how to read music, and I'm so happy because it's much easier.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by diddly
Re: how to learn tunes.............
@irish fiddler2: it is not wrong to copy. after you learned to play it by heart you will have several opportunities: play it a lot and play it slow/play with different settings of ornamentation/change swing, attack or what ever params you like to change. search for diffferent recordings of this particular tune and learn to play/copy it as well ... be sure, you will develop your own version ;o)
nevertheless: music reading is not a bad but as well not the better alternative
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by crannog
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Of course you will end up sounding like some one else if you only learn tunes off them (I had that problem for a while with Kevin Burke, very common I'm afraid). The trick is to learn tunes off loads of people, especially tunes from different instruments, as crannog says.
But be careful about this "your own style" thing. If you are going to push the bounderies of this music, you must first totally imerse yourself in its traditional way of playing. Never push yourself to develop your own style, or you'll lose the music.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: how to learn tunes.............
good point, michael! make trad shine from inside comes first, own style follows later.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by crannog
Re: how to learn tunes.............
btw abvoe I said own version - that´s not compelling own style.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by crannog
Re: how to learn tunes.............
"the problem with learning tunes off recordings is that you have no idea if the tune is even the original tune. I suggest finding the name, and looking up the sheet music."
This assumes that the sheet music is in some way more authentic than the recording - this is not always the case.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: how to learn tunes.............
I too was a litte aghast at that statement. It really is a rediculous thing to say and shows a basic ignorance of what diddly music is.
How can any version be more authentic. It's just such a contradictory concept. Is the oldest version the most authentic? Is it the version that was learned off the oldest player? Is it the version in O'Neils that was transcribed by the sergent who couldn't play?
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Possibly, if we knew the composer and it was his/her version in print. However, even then, the composer of a tune (at least the diddly kind
will possibly never play it the same way twice themselves or, at least, will vary it as time goes by.
I once suggested here before that the composer's version might be regarded as a definitive version but Will, who is a prolific composer of tunes, rejected this notion. He argued that a popularly played version of one of his tunes would be just as authentic as a trancribed version of his original.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by John J.
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Exactly. An authentic diddly tune is an oxymoron
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: how to learn tunes.............
"The trick is to learn tunes of loads of people, especially tunes from different instruments"
This really says it all.
I think if you follow this advice, you will develop your style naturally.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BegF
Re: how to learn tunes.............
And try to learn tunes off of people that you admire, or wouldn't mind sounding like. Tune selection is also very important. It does affect your style in the end. (If you learn all Donegal tunes by ear, you will end up with that style.) There are countless tunes out there, so pick the ones that really speak to you.
I am not sure how long you have been playing, but at the start, it is best to spend your energy on acquiring tunes, rather than learning one or two tunes deeply. The more tunes you know from various sources, the more you find out what you like, and what you would like to sound like.
And with versions, if you are going to learn a tune from a source, learn it in total. All this chat about "there is no authentic version" should not discourage you from fully learning a tune. Don't take short cuts because you think you can make up your own version!
Concerning paper versus recordings. In my experience, I would rely on the recording versus the paper (depending on the recording).
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Jode
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Jode, that's a good point about fully learning a tune. Learn all there is on the recording. As we know, it's a grey area what is tune or decoration or variation so learn it all. Don't tkae short cuts. If there is a bit you find you can't get, try harder
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: how to learn tunes.............
I just remember being frustrated by the "no true version" argument when I first heard it. Like, why work at learning a tune when you can just call what you have your own version!
When you are first learning, it is hard to hear all the notes. You learn the tune, and you think you have it, and then you listen again and you are still missing bits.
In fact, this still happens to me with complex tunes that I have not heard before, or haven't listened to enough. (listen, listen, listen)
All this to say that one should do their best to learn a particular version. And remember that you never stop learning!
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Jode
Re: how to learn tunes.............
I like to learn tunes off tapes I make of sessions, where it's really noisy and you can barely make out the tune. Then you're forced to make up the bits you can't hear, and voila! Your own version!
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by feadogin
Re: how to learn tunes.............
michael gill, Jode - nice dialogue. I couldn't agree more... I was about to post a response about Jode's third paragraph, then I refreshed my session and found that you guys had already written exactly was I was going to post... :^P
I have a comment about "acquiring tunes", though... when I was first starting out, my teacher told me to *not* learn a lot of tunes - just learn a few tunes and learn to play them well. I'm sure he was basing this on my lack of proficiency at my instrument.
Do you agree that each person and situation is different, and does your position on tune quantity vs. quality vary accordingly?
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by browndog
Re: how to learn tunes.............
For me, it depends on what you mean by "playing it well." I have this friend who likes to learn tunes, and she tries to get everything. And she won't move on until she feels that she has everything (the tune with all the ornamentation and variations). Consequently, she doesn't know that many tunes and does not play much in the sessions.
When you are starting out, I think "playing well" constitutes playing the tune with an even tempo and with good rhythm. Ornamentation comes in next, and variations would be down the road.
Now, having said all that, I think everyone should have a party piece or two. A set of tunes that they love and really work on. A set that they can "perform" for friends and relatives.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Jode
Another thing. In my experience, I believe that I have learned more about my playing and about the music by learning new tunes, rather than discecting the tunes I already played.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Jode
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Thanks for the reply, Jode. Looking back on the few years that I have been playing, I think I'm in the same boat as your friend. I, too, cannot play much in sessions because of my lack of repertoire.
However, all that time, I have taken my first teacher's words as gospel. I've worked hard to improve the quality of my tone, intonation, and rhythm (and still do work hard on it every day!!!). I regard this as "building a solid foundation" upon which to learn tunes. I perhaps could have learned more tunes sooner, but I feel that since I've approached my learning curve with years of patience (a word that I haven't seen used in this thread yet...), I'm better off now - six years into it.
By the way, I think this is a nice discussion - even though it has been covered many times in the past. It's always good to hear other people's perspectives - especially since every individual's situation is different. Thanks for submitting it irish_fiddler2.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by browndog
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Yeah, some people are voracious tune dictionaries. But I realise that there are too many tunes and am therefor more selective.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Sorry, I have to ad to that that I was not always that way inclined. I've learned way too many tunes in the past and am now trying to forget them. (not that learning them in the first place didn't prbably help though)
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Yeah Michael, maybe I should stop for a few years and relearn the early ones!
Bkessler. I can't fault you or your teacher for wanting perfection, and wanting to get a lovely sound. Just like my friend. I would not dream of chastizing her.
In balance, I guess I get more joy out of playing tunes with people than perfecting the sound of a particular tune. That's just me!
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Jode
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Ahhhh... another word I love to see when discussing learning, Jode! "Balance." Well said.
I would theorize that our respective individual positions on this topic are heavily influenced by our relative proficiencies at our instruments. I had barely gotten beyond playing my first note when my teacher gave me his advice. I would hazard a guess that your ability level far exceeds mine...
Gotta cruise. Thanks for the interesting dialogue... Brian
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by browndog
Re: how to learn tunes.............
if you dont work on your tone and inflectoin and rhythm, all the tunes you know will amount to nothing. all the 30 or 40 tunes i used to know i dont play anymore, because i learned them wrong. i'm learning by ear now and i only play the ear learned ones, because i cant play in time on the old ones. whenever i resurrect an old one i have to spend a day or 2 on nothing but it to get it to work right. although it seems more rewarding ot learn a bunch of tunes poorly, it really doesnt help in the long run cuz once you get better you'll have a lot of trouble unlearning your bad habits in those tune. conquering bad habits in tunes you didnt know is challenging and fun, conquering bad habits in tunes you used to know is excruciating.
plus i dont see the point in playing if you sound bad and dont try to improve. sounding bad, having fun, and slowly getting better is great tho.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by daiv
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Yep, we were not advising that anyone learn tunes poorly. And we were not telling anyone to NOT work on their technique.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Jode
Re: how to learn tunes.............
I think it's really a mixture of everything. Learn as many tunes as you can, from an abundance of people...once you understand how to play well, then that's when you start to put in your own style.
first...learn how to play
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BTCpz
Re: how to learn tunes.............
I don't think you should worry too much about developing a personal style. It's rather unavoidable. In fact, I think you'd have to work very diligently _not_ to sound like yourself. My personal style is: being a terrible fiddle player. I would love to develop more of a John Doherty sound. (I'd better get to work!)
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Kerri's right - your personal style will happen whether you like it or not. Don't be afraid of experimenting - but don't go too far.
"if you learn a tune off a recording, arent you copying someone elses style???" only if you DO copy their style. There is a world of difference between learning a tune and copying the style of the person you learn from.
Some people's personal style actually IS to slavishly duplicate what they hear on a CD. At the other extreme, I know a fiddler whose personal style is to b*gger about with a tune so much that you can't make out what he's playing. Then when he gets to the end he smiles round patronisingly and says "I thought you knew that one". Yes - I knew that one, but his playing hid the tune.
Out of these ramblings and my experiences I'm trying to come up with a single sentence answer to irishfiddler2's question here. How about this: Don't work on your style, work on making the tune sound good, and your style will reveal itself.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: how to learn tunes.............
showaddydadito i couldnt have put it better myself.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by daiv
Re: how to learn tunes.............
agree
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Guitar tunings- open tunings versus capo
I enjoy playing fiddle tunes on my guitar. I would like to hear feedback on tuning strings in different keys as opposed to using a capo. I would then have the whole fretboard to use and MORE real estate to work with. Any feedback would be appreciated ,and any tuning methods also.Please respond if you have experimented.Thanks!! Later......
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by patrick kearney
Re: how to learn tunes.............
Some voracious tune-dictionaries only learn the gist of a tune (probably 85% of it) and commit it upstairs on first hearing, often without playing it.
They have instant recall and can replay most of the tune back, the next time someone starts playing it.
Most of it is done by bluff and knowledge of the idiom (and practise at filing tunes away).
Personally, I file them away by tune-name and can remember whether a certain tune is a jig or reel, but if it has been 20 years since I heard it last, I sometimes need to hear a bit of the tune to recall it, but if it has been stored away, I can eventually recall and play it.
# Posted on October 26th 2004 by geoffwright