Ok let's not argue about the difference between a fiddle and a violin. Let's think about the difference between a fiddler and a violinist. I'm a violinist and I want to be a fiddler. My technique is pretty good and for years I've been able to play a good selection of jigs and reels etc. My problem is this-the syncopation needed to render most reels seems to be at odds with my brain programming that the beginning of a bar or emphasised note should be a down bow. I am really struggling with bowing directions and it's doing my head in. Why does my bow always want to go the wrong way? If anyone else has solved this I would be really appreciate some advice. I'm really fed up of playing traditional music in a 'classical' way.
Can you isolate certain sections and replay them? When I am having bowing difficulties, I try to find a tune where I am having the problem and play the troublesome section over and over.
Perhaps you could start with a pronounced section, and this could lead you to free up your bowing in other tunes.
Also, listen to Kevin Burke. He loves using the up bow for emphasis. Learn a tune that he plays and play it with him. Try to relearn by ear if you can.
Just some ideas. As a kid, I quit classical lessons at about the time my teacher kept yelling at me to correct my bow direction. I just did not get it, and am glad for it.
The most common challenges I notice for classically trained players are the rhythm and attack. A lot of them either knock out the notes as mechanically as a MIDI player and as fast as possible, and others just use the tune as a general framework for beautiful melodic improvisation that you can't even tap your foot to.
The only remedy is to listen listen and listen some more. Then make a serious, concerted effort to duplicate what you're hearing. Avoid reverb as much as possible and experiment with bowing a single phrase ten different ways.
Picture the sheet music for a reel - one bar containing two groups of four notes. Play the first note of the group with a strong down-bow, then play the remaining three notes tied on a softer slurred up-bow. First note is held fractionally longer than the other three. That's just one bowing pattern for reels - but my point is that the emphasis is on the first note of each group, using a down-bow.
If you listen to some of the reels on my tune-learning site, you'll hear the 1---2-3-4 pattern in the reels.
Up bow or down bow - you'll find that one thing that a lot of Irish players do, including Mr K Burke, is to slur across the beats and across bar lines.
You might have a reel or jig that starts, for the sake of example, with a G, say a long roll on a G, but with a pick-up note of D preceding it.
Try slurring the D and the G or G-roll together, but speeding up the bow and adding a bit of intensity to give the downbeat as you come into the G. Just one example. And try it on an upbow just to see what that feels like.
Listen to Burke's jigs - just one example, since he was mentioned - and you'll hear him slurring into many downbeats, linking from the preceding eighth note.
A complete mindf*ck for classical players but common coin in the Irish tradition.
Hm, Jim, I haven't heard that advice for Irish fiddle before. I had a great tip from one of my teachers to try playing the tune in couplets, slurring across the first beat, so that the bow direction changes on the second, fourth, sixth and eighth note in a bar (the last note in one bar coupled with the first in the next). It wasn't meant to be a definitive pattern, but an exercise to deprogram a that sense of ONE two three four, HUP two three four and free me up to place emphasis wherever the tune seemed to call for it.
It's very common in ITM to start tunes on an upbow and slur across the bar lines. Downbowing the first and fourth beats is more of a Scottish idea. (Slash Cape Breton, slash Quebec.)
Q: Do you have and advice on bowing, how to get into the style?
A: The biggest thing is to listen. Listen and listen and listen to what you like. And if you listen it will invariably get into your head. So if you have it in your head it will definitely come out somewhere.
Jim,
I was trained as a classical player too and this was my biggest question at first. Try to get away from planning your bow directions too much, just listen to the accents and inflections of how the music should sound. Then practice it with many different bowings in order to discover what works for each passage. There is no right or wrong way to bow a reel or jig. Mainly just do what works. I took a workshop from Martin Hayes who said in regards to bowing, something like, just noodle around a lot. Just try a lot of ideas until you find the right solution. He suggested practicing everything with opposite bow directions so that you could play any way it happens to come out in the heat of the moment. That has really come in handy for fast reels when you get the bows backwards from the usual way you play it. Upbows are generally better for where you want an accent. I've heard many famous Irish fiddlers say that they bow a tune differently every time they play it. It's really a hard thing to do when your trained to do it the same every time.
Good luck and give yourself time.
Judi
Over the many years I've played in orchestras as a classical cellist I've noticed that the bowing direction is as often governed by how the conductor (or section leader) thinks it should look to the audience as the actual musical reasons for the bowing.
I've experienced many situations where the cellos were told to use the same up-down bowing as the violins (just so that it looked good - and this was actually said) whereas the fact of the matter was that up-down was technically more difficult for the cellos in that particular passage; down-up bowing would have been far better. However, for a few years, when that particular orchestra had a conductor who was an accomplished cellist, the cello section never seemed to have any bowing problems(!). Since playing the fiddle I've been a lot more pragmatic about my classical bowing on the cello.
It's also worth remembering that whereas today classical playing often requires an accent to be done with a down bow, 200 or more years ago an accent would have been done with an up bow. The playing style of ITM has a lot in common with that of the baroque period.
Phonsie, it's a very good idea every now and then to forget playing tunes for a week or so and instead concentrate on technical exercises. You'll come back to the tunes refreshed, and some problems, miraculously, may no longer be problems.
For the fiddle I'd recommend the Sevcik Studies. In particular, vol 1 will give you all the fingering technique you'll ever need, and more, for playing ITM. (Go religously through the later volumes of Sevcik and you'll get an outstanding classical technique as well!)
It's most important not to treat technical exercises (on any instrument, as well as the fiddle) as mere mechanical physical exercises for the muscles and tendons. The brain should be intimately involved as well, and you should try to treat each little exercise, even the shortest and simplest, as a mini fragment of real music, perhaps part of a tune. Then tehcnical exercises become intrinsically enjoyable and you'll get the most benefit from them.
Trevor
"Phonsie, it's a very good idea every now and then to forget playing tunes for a week or so and instead concentrate on technical exercises."
It is? Oh no! I've been doing this all wrong! Jimod, if you're going to follow Trevor's advice, make sure your technical exercises are Irish, not classical, or they'll do squat for your playing. Cuts, rolls, triplets, slides, variations (melody, dynamics and bowing). No need to drill pinky vibrato in third position, and you don't need to bother with "melodic minor" scales. Forget you ever heard of them.
Try the rhythm I posted on the recent thread about reels/hornpipes. If you do that, the accents and syncopation will come without you having to think about it. Don't do what Kevin Burke does.
listen listen listen. It's been said many times so far and is the only way.
But the problem with wrong bowing hanging over from a previously learned musical genre is that it comes from hard wired neural connections in you brain. These will have formed via years of repatition/practice.
Unfortunatly the only way to undo this damage is to stop playing for a couple of months. But don't stop music. Listen listen listen. And learn tunes by ear and sing them. Then, after your sabatical, pic up the instrument and only play these new tunes. The bowing will come automatically because it's driven by the sound and not any pre-defined patern.
I've posted this bit of advice befor and it underlines the vital nature of this tradition being aural.
Weird...just yesterday I started to learn the King's Reel. Got the notes and played it and thought "God that is so not the right sheet music!". So... I went to the CD player and listened to a verison played by a fine Cape Bretoner while looking at the sheetmusic. THat's when the AH!!!! factor hit me, it waas the right sheetmusci afterall! I was able to put the accents and the bowing right. I'm classically trained as well and this seems to work for me, otherwise I play the damn tunes too fast, too flat and therefore too boring. Slowly with time some tunes are starting to come naturally, but LISTENING is what saving my arse.
Thanks for all that, Trevor. Your comments are as always most enlightening. The time lapse in responding is due to my having too much wine on board to be able to handle the sobering reality you were putting up to me (not to mention the matter of sandwich blackmail on another thread). This thing about bowing. There are so many opinions on the subject. Is it like what Xenophanes said about existence, “All is but a web of woven guesses”? Or like breathing – something you do rather than think about, ie an anima thing? Coming from where I came from, I don’t understand the problems classical players have with bowing, as I’m not classically trained – or trained in any way apart from a few fairly desultory and inconsequential fiddle lessons about twenty-five years ago. So my relationship with the fiddle is mostly Sturm und Drang, interspersed with purple patches when the tunes seem to play themselves – as distinct from the consistently apparently effortless flowing style of say Kevin Burke. I have always suspected that classically trained players have an immense advantage, if for no other reason than that Kevin Burke was classically trained. So how did the generation of fiddlers from whom Kevin Burke learned his ITM learn to play – Bobby Casey, Martin Byrnes et al, and before them Michael Coleman and Paddy Killoran et al? Just listening to the album, “Paddy in the Smoke” the other day that features Bobby Casey and Martin Byrnes amongst others. What comes through it all – the spoon-playing, pub noise such as verbal backslapping etc – is the power and “solidity” of the playing as well as the stylistic accomplishment. Did they get a grounding in classical technique, like K Burke, before they “lit out for the territory”? Questions, questions, questions… For the sake of greater consistency, drive and “lift” in my playing I’m going to have to take your advice sooner or later; though in my present incarnation, tied to the mast of certain mundane trials and tribulations, I’m not in a position to embark on such an ambitious programme. In the meantime, all I can do is “keep on keepin’ on”.
Ha ha Jim, I love you. Do you think we could petition Jeremy to write some fancy computer stuff that when anyone asks anything to do with "how does such and such do such and such?", and automatic email is sent to said offender that says simply "listen listen listen"?f
On further sober reflection and with reference to points made by Kerri, Jim and Trevor in particular, I would add the following comments. Listening is obviously a sine qua non for learning music in the oral tradition, but it is not sufficient for effective playing. How do you perfect roll playing except by persistent practise. The roll on the high G, for example, a feature of so many tunes, which I find particularly difficult at a fast clip (possibly because of the peculiar clumsiness of the third finger as explained recently on another thread by somebody – Trevor, I think), would warrant a thread all to itself. A case in point is The Old Bush, which I’ve recently retrieved from the back catalogue. The reel itself is a slight enough old thing, unless it’s played well; but “played well” to my (perfectionist?) mind depends on getting those high G rolls spot on – like the way Sean Keane hits them in his rendering of the tune with Matt Molloy on the “Contentment is Wealth” album. The aforementioned K Burke is a master of the lightening fast rolls executed without breaking stride. And there’s the rub. It’s not enough to have a great bowing action if you can’t integrate the rolls etc into the swing and bounce of the music, which is first and foremost dance music. The kind of speed and precision required obviously cannot be attained by just listening, no matter how long and hard you listen, because it is a matter of digital dexterity. The problem is complicated by the fact that the roll has to be executed in a context of other digital manoeuvres probably unique to each tune, so it’s not just a matter of learning the G roll once and for all and “cutting and pasting” it where appropriate. It has to be practised in the context of the particular tune being learned. So I would go with Kerri on that. Practise, practise, practise… And if anybody has any ideas on the best way to practise those rolls I would love to hear about them.
I hope you take this in a constructive way, phonsie, as it is meant that way, but I think it is possible to play very good music withoutout ever 'mastering' a roll on the high G. I don't think it's correct to say they are 'a feature of so many tunes' - rather that they are a feature of many popular interpretations of those tunes by the sort of people who get recorded.
I hate to state the obvious and that, but has anyone mentioned "looking" yet? I mean, you can listen to CDs and try and play what you hear, but some techniques are quicker learnt by watching a good player do their stuff. This isn't about just "listening". It's not like you go to a session with your eyes shut.
Phonsie, do you mean the roll on the E string, containing the notes [g-a-g-f#-g], fingered [2-3-2-1-2], and played in jigs and reels as well?
If so, here's my take on it - don't try to shoehorn the complete roll into a tune if you're struggling with it. Build it up a little at a time.
Assuming you've just played played your first [g], make this the long note, followed by a quick pull-off from the [a] to the [g], then [f#], then [g]. So, giving the notes their time values, (main note, grace notes, main note), it would look something like this : [g...ag.f#.g...]
Dow, I was getting all excited about posting "watch, watch, watch" at the end of this thread and then I saw you beat me to it. Blatant staring is how I've learned (theoretically, at least) what my fingers ought to do in order to produce the sounds I like.
Well, for me, the perfect formula is drink, listen, drink, listen, watch, play, play, drink, listen, listen, drink, watch, listen, play, play, drink, take a bathroom break, play play play, drink drink drink, take another bathroom break, then get kicked out of the bar because they've been closed for an hour and I've been ignoring their dirty looks, sneak a few more sips of my drink, go out into the cold and listen listen listen to the tunes still playing in my head. Then whistle whistle, hum, sing, skip, listen, and when I get home again, if I'm lucky and the room-mates aren't home, drink, drink, play (quietly), and, finally, sleep (where the cycle begins anew in my dreams).
Well, Kevin Burke would say "there's no right way to bow Irish music", but I don't think that's exactly true. At least when talking about the right way to bow classical music. I think what you should probably do is maybe find roots in another very DEFINED type of music, such as old-time fiddling's down-bowing. That'll really shake up your classical music paradigm. Brad Leftwich has a good series over at homespuntapes.com
Jim Dorans' advice to Phonsie relates to advice our tutor gave us in a tune-learning workshop yesterday. The tune we were concentrating on was The Hunter's Purse (reel) and our tutor advised us not to use a roll when playing at speed, e.g. for dancers (his band does a lot of gigs for set dancers). He said it is more effective in these situations to use instead the occasional cut, grace note or slide up onto a note, but best not every time, nor in the same place in the tune.
Another point he made was that his personal experience was that he needed to practice a tune 200-300 times before he could say that he really had it, the acid test for which was to be able to carry on a fluent conversation with someone while he was playing the tune.
Trevor
That advice about the shortcuts makes a lot of sense, Trevor. I assume the "200-300 times" point is tongue-in-cheek, because if taken literally the ordinary part-time fiddler such as the present poster would have a very limited repertoire. I've just seen Zoe Conway on TG4 playing a reel. Ye gods, but she's a humdinger.
Just expanding on what you said about rolls, cuts, etc....I've found that in playing gigs in some venues, the acoustics are so bright that sometimes the 'Full Monty' rolls just become a blur to listeners 40 feet away...another reason not to put so much emphasis on ornaments...more so when multiple melody instruments are playing together.
Practicing a tune 200-300 times to get it into one's head has got me thinking.
There are currently about 3500 tunes in the Tunes section. Assuming 2500 of them are worth playing (ducking swiftly behind the parapet), averaging say 1 minute per tune, and practicing each tune 200 times equates to about 8300 hours of practice. At 4 hours per day, every day, these tunes would take about 5 years and 8 months to get into my head.
Something I forgot to say about the tune workshop was that towards the end the tutor got us to pair the A part of The Hunter's Purse (reel) with the B part of The Rakes of Kildare (jig) - both in Ador - and repeating the sequence several times without a break so as to get us used to increasing the note playing speed (from 6/8 to 4/4) and vice versa while maintaining a constant 2 beats in the bar. We started slowly and gradually increased the tempo to set dancing speed. Then we did it with the B part of The Hunter's Purse paired with the A part of The Rakes of Kildare.
A not easy but very effective and rewarding exercise.
You can get confused if you try to learn rolls by watching people, certainly everyone I know seems to execute them differently. From the sharp hammer on approach to the cross flick (more my technique) and verything else, it's not the look of a roll you're after, it's the sound.
Interesting note about the old bush: Previously I've suggested that there are certain "decorations" which are not there to "decorate" a tune, but are part and parcel of it. That snappy G roll is a great example of one of them. Anyone who plays the old bush without it is simply not playing the tune.
Interesting sub note: One of the things about diddley music's fluidity is that although a particular roll may be part of the tune, you can still leave it out occasionally as a variation. Anyone who has a problem with this inherant contradiction is simply not playing the tune
I dunno, Micheal. I find it really helpful to watch people play. Of course I listen at the same time, but the combination of listening for sounds I like and watching to learn how they're made is what I do instead of lessons. I could have struggled for hours and never figured out how to do a roll if I'd never seen one done.
Kerri, I'm not saying that watching didn't help you. And ofcourse the combitation of watching and listening is probably the best way to learn, but you know this. But how many different styles of roll playing have you seen? Did it confuse you at first?
Not really. What confused me was the slowed down explanation I got at the start of my fiddling adventure. I couldn't figure out how playing EFDE could make the sound I was hearing on my albums until I saw the snap, flick, ("tickle"), or whatever you want to call it that makes it work.
"Don't do what Kevin Burke does?
Why wouldn't you?"
Because regardless of what you think of his playing, you'd only end up sounding like Kevin Burke and you'd have missed the whole point of the music. God I'm starting to sound like Michael but it's true.
Yes, I remember that leap. And there really is no explanation of how a roll works, especially a written explanation (words or notation). You have to begin with a familiarity with the sound of it then work out you're own method, via hearing and seeing done.
In used to be a bit of a roll crusader. I thought I was helping people. When I'd come accross players trying to play diddley music with no rolls (excrutiatingly common in England) I'd take them aside and show them what was missing. The problem was, I'd show them, show them again, show them slower, etc and just be met with blank indifference. I'm pretty sure the problem was not my teaching (though I might have come accross as a bit agressive) it was the fact that said Englishman/woman had just never listened to rolls, so was not even aware of them, let alone how they should sound. They all said they loved Kevin Burke, but they never listened to him.
Try the rhythm that you posted earlier, but don't do what Kevin Burke does ?
Trying to sound like Kevin Burke is different though from analysing his style and improving on your own from what you've learnt by listening and watching him....or have I "missed the whole point of music"?
Yes that's what I meant. The rhythm I notated above is a general observation that applies to many many players. It's a basic rhythm thing, not an analysis of anyone's style. 2 very different things.
OK, so I threw out Kevin Burke's name as an example of someone that uses the up bow effectively for accenting. That was in reaction to Jimod's statement about always using a down bow for emphasis.
Jimod was also looking for advice on how to break his pattern. Learning one tune front to back in the bowing pattern of an established fiddler does not equate to forever sounding like that fiddler.
Padraig said he would rather sound Donegalish, and that is a good point. Listen to someone that plays in the style in which you would like to play. Then learn a tune from that person. Listen to the way that it is bowed and try to mimic it.
Now, unless you want to sound exactly like that person, then don't learn every tune from that person. Beg, borrow and steal from anyone you admire.
But do learn new tunes. Try to loosen your bowing up with the new tunes. Free your mind and ear. Don't try to go back and rework the old tunes until you get a body of new tunes with a better style.
Or do what Michael said and give up playing for a time. As a kid, I was taught classical and also played ITM. As a teen, I gave up playing for at least a year. When I started again, it was all ITM and it was like learning to bow all over again.
Ok, here's something that I've heard Wil espouse time upon time (I think it came down from Kevin Burke) - It doesn't matter how your bow moves... I mean, it can only go up, or down, right? So why worry about how your bows going, just as long as it's going, and there aren't love struck cats outside your window... There's a thrumming to the music, whether your using a bow, or a box, or your own two lungs, so as long as that thrum, or the nyaah, or the pulse, or whatever it is that your wanting to call it, is there, your on the right path.
Oh, and I'm going to have to go up to montana sometime and have will teach me how to do rolls, cos I caun't do 'em to save me life.
BUT! I'm thinking me trebles are coming along, so I'm happy....
Montana. Isn't that where all those candy floss tycoons hang out? The thing about Kevin Burke is that, as somebody said about Mozart, he's even better than he sounds. When I first heard him I thought that's the way I want to play the fiddle, just effortlessly pouring out those beautiful spirit-lifting dance tunes. Exactly what Yeats was writing about in "The Fiddler of Dooney", where "Folk dance like waves on the sea". The trouble is there is a lot more technique to his playing than is first apparent. His is the "art that conceals art". I heard play a gig in Galway in June and he more than lived up to even my stratospheric estimate of him. Of course there are other brilliant fiddlers. And it could be argued that Kevin Burke doesn't have the kind of umph in his playing that say Frankie Gavin or Tommy Peoples have. That's enough of the eulogy. What you were saying about the G roll in "The Old Bush", Michael -I agree with you that it is essential. But I find it almost impossible to get it right at full tilt, the way Sean Keane does. Another concern here is the possibility that one might incur repetitive strain injury by persisting with practising something that might be beyond ones physiological capability. Has anybody any views on that?
All things being equal, I don't think there's much chance of repetitive strain injury, unless you persist with something that is positively physically uncomfortable (and possibly with bad posture too).
When I was learning fiddle, I did both of these things until I put myself right. I had bad posture (a shoulder rest fixed that), and I struggled with things like the 5-note G-roll, trying to play it properly during a fast reel. It simply was not working, so I gave up playing 5-notes and simply used a two-note ornament instead.
Around the same time, I started lessons with a top classical teacher. I casually mentioned the difficulties with rolls etc, and his advice was not to fixate on them, but do some Sevcik exercises instead (remember, this was coming from a top violinist who did not play Irish music).
Lo and behold, after about two weeks practicing *one page* of the Sevcik exercise, I had the 5-note rolls literally rolling off the fingerboard without thinking - and sounding good and crisp too.
These exercises are designed to make the hand and fingers work fluently, to cope with trills, ornaments, rolls etc (anything out of the ordinary), *regardless* of the type of music you are playing.
Apology to Frank Zappa. "candy floss tycoons" in my last longueur should of course have read "dental floss tycoons". I too intend to track down this Sevcik thing, as Trevor also recommended it. Jim, you should try a roll with hummus and sun-dried tomatoes; it's even better than a ham sangwidge.
Pádraig and Phonsie, it looks like Jim Dorans has switched off for the night, and I've just come in from a really good session. So I'm feeling unusually generous, and here is the info you need to get hold of the Sevcík book.
Sevcík Violin Studies Opus 1 Part 1
(School of Violin technique - Exercises in the 1st Position. BOE005046)
ISMN: M2016 4062 4
Published by Bosworth & Co Ltd
Sales and Hire:
Music Sales Distribution Centre,
Newmarket Road,
Bury St Edmunds
Suffolk IP33 3YB
UK
Tel: +44 (0) 1284 702600
www.musicsales.com
e-mail: music@musicsales.co.uk
You should be able to get Sevcík in almost any good music shop. I know Bristol Violin Shop stock it, and they do mail order.
The first 20 pages of Sevcík have the most important finger exercises as far as the Irish fiddle player is concerned; go further into the book and you'll be entering classical violin territory which is necessary for the classical player but not all of which is required by the Irish fiddler (although you might like to look at the useful bowing exercises on pp 50-53).
A very important part of the book is Simon Fischer's very good advice on holding the fiddle, finger and hand position, and practice, at the beginning of the book, and this should be read and assimilated before the exercises are started.
BTW, Sevcík is spelled with a little tick (a small "v") over the "S" and "c", which would probably result in something very weird if I attempted to use it on this website. Note the acute accent over the "i". I think Sevcík is probably pronounced "Shev-chick".
I've tried typing Sevcik with the twiddly bits over the letters. This is how it comes out: Ševčík.
Do other members get weird symbols or odd combinations of letter/numbers on their browsers?
Trevor
This is the longest post I've seen yet. Mind you I don't read them all. I just took the fiddle course at Sabhal Mor Ostaig with Alasdair Fraser. He talked a bit on classical players of which I am one. I can also say that i'm a fiddler now as well. Anyway he says there is no bridge across the water from being a classical player to becoming a fiddler. One must back down the path and start up a new one. Well said..I think. Anyway, lots was said about listen as the playing must come from inner language and listening to your inner drummer. All the above is helpful, but listen to a iddler with groove and when you finally recognize that you're hearing it you're on the right track. Bowing is critical but seems to come from having that inner language that spills out after you've listened to nothing else for 5 years. I even find that my classical play has more drive and energy since "becoming a fiddler". Two things I've just started doing are taping all my practices and listening to them right away and I put up a mirror and watch my bow arm, the energy/groove can really be seen or not and improved immediately. Our perceptions of how we sound and look are usually way off. Anyway, I hope this helps a little. Good luck
Your magnanimity (a hoor of a word to spell)is appreciated, Jim. I was afraid I was a bit OTT with that. Pedantically speaking again, I also got the Yeats quote wrong back there - It should be "Folk dance like a wave on the sea" (ie, "wave" is singular). And a further reflection on the K Burke, F Gavin, T Peoples comment is the fact that despite their virtousity, the regional characteristics still come through in their playing. Just as I sense (imagine?) a jazz vibe in Liz Carroll's playing -reflecting her Chicago milieu? Is one allowed these kinds of off-the-wall comments even out here in cyber-space, I wonder.
Rog, I really think it would be easier and more productive to learn to read the dots than to convert the Ševčík exercises into ABC format.
There's a lot of complex, and important, information in the Ševčík exercises - instructions as to what fingers to hold down or raise, phrasing, attack, types of bowing, etc which would be difficult (if not impossible) and confusing to convert into ABC format. Just putting the plain dots of Ševčík into ABC without the further information and instructions would be rather like trying to play an Irish reel from the ABC (or dots) AND make it sound authentic without ever having heard Irish music being played!
The Ševčík exercises aren't tunes but training exercises designed to give strength, flexibility and mobility to the fingers; and as Jim Dorans said, the results can be applied to playing any kind of music. Think of the Ševčík exercises as being like circuit training for the fingers. Circuit training in the gym gives you the strength, speed and stamina which you can then apply to your chosen sport.
Hi all I'm the original poster Jim who has since left London to live in Sligo (couldn't afford the parking tickets). At least one night a week I play with Peter Horan (Flute, Fiddle), Roger Sherlock's brother. There are so many people who play flute and/or fiddle around here that you're just immersed in it. And I find the style is surely but slowly changing. And yet I can flip back to classical if I want. A big hello to Ted of Roisin Dubh, Gurteen who has been there for 25 years!
I'm off to Wynne's Bar, Boyle tonight where the two McGreevy brothers are likely to make you head for home with a severe inferiority complex.
Jim - ex Garratt Lane
Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Ok let's not argue about the difference between a fiddle and a violin. Let's think about the difference between a fiddler and a violinist. I'm a violinist and I want to be a fiddler. My technique is pretty good and for years I've been able to play a good selection of jigs and reels etc. My problem is this-the syncopation needed to render most reels seems to be at odds with my brain programming that the beginning of a bar or emphasised note should be a down bow. I am really struggling with bowing directions and it's doing my head in. Why does my bow always want to go the wrong way? If anyone else has solved this I would be really appreciate some advice. I'm really fed up of playing traditional music in a 'classical' way.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by hoopoe
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Can you isolate certain sections and replay them? When I am having bowing difficulties, I try to find a tune where I am having the problem and play the troublesome section over and over.
Perhaps you could start with a pronounced section, and this could lead you to free up your bowing in other tunes.
Also, listen to Kevin Burke. He loves using the up bow for emphasis. Learn a tune that he plays and play it with him. Try to relearn by ear if you can.
Just some ideas. As a kid, I quit classical lessons at about the time my teacher kept yelling at me to correct my bow direction. I just did not get it, and am glad for it.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Jode
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
The most common challenges I notice for classically trained players are the rhythm and attack. A lot of them either knock out the notes as mechanically as a MIDI player and as fast as possible, and others just use the tune as a general framework for beautiful melodic improvisation that you can't even tap your foot to.
The only remedy is to listen listen and listen some more. Then make a serious, concerted effort to duplicate what you're hearing. Avoid reverb as much as possible and experiment with bowing a single phrase ten different ways.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Here here, Kerri.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by sara g
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
OK, it's been a long day. Make that 'Hear, hear, Kerri'. LOL!
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by sara g
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Picture the sheet music for a reel - one bar containing two groups of four notes. Play the first note of the group with a strong down-bow, then play the remaining three notes tied on a softer slurred up-bow. First note is held fractionally longer than the other three. That's just one bowing pattern for reels - but my point is that the emphasis is on the first note of each group, using a down-bow.
If you listen to some of the reels on my tune-learning site, you'll hear the 1---2-3-4 pattern in the reels.
The site address is http://www.jim.dorans.dsl.pipex.com/
I'm a classical player too.
Jim
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
what's going on over there?
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Can someone get me a capo for my flute? I need it for those F and Gm tunes...
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Up bow or down bow - you'll find that one thing that a lot of Irish players do, including Mr K Burke, is to slur across the beats and across bar lines.
You might have a reel or jig that starts, for the sake of example, with a G, say a long roll on a G, but with a pick-up note of D preceding it.
Try slurring the D and the G or G-roll together, but speeding up the bow and adding a bit of intensity to give the downbeat as you come into the G. Just one example. And try it on an upbow just to see what that feels like.
Listen to Burke's jigs - just one example, since he was mentioned - and you'll hear him slurring into many downbeats, linking from the preceding eighth note.
A complete mindf*ck for classical players but common coin in the Irish tradition.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Hm, Jim, I haven't heard that advice for Irish fiddle before. I had a great tip from one of my teachers to try playing the tune in couplets, slurring across the first beat, so that the bow direction changes on the second, fourth, sixth and eighth note in a bar (the last note in one bar coupled with the first in the next). It wasn't meant to be a definitive pattern, but an exercise to deprogram a that sense of ONE two three four, HUP two three four and free me up to place emphasis wherever the tune seemed to call for it.
It's very common in ITM to start tunes on an upbow and slur across the bar lines. Downbowing the first and fourth beats is more of a Scottish idea. (Slash Cape Breton, slash Quebec.)
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Yeah, what Steve said.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Some advice from Mairéad ní Mhaonagh:
Q: Do you have and advice on bowing, how to get into the style?
A: The biggest thing is to listen. Listen and listen and listen to what you like. And if you listen it will invariably get into your head. So if you have it in your head it will definitely come out somewhere.
More here:
http://www.standingstones.com/mairead.html
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Jim,
I was trained as a classical player too and this was my biggest question at first. Try to get away from planning your bow directions too much, just listen to the accents and inflections of how the music should sound. Then practice it with many different bowings in order to discover what works for each passage. There is no right or wrong way to bow a reel or jig. Mainly just do what works. I took a workshop from Martin Hayes who said in regards to bowing, something like, just noodle around a lot. Just try a lot of ideas until you find the right solution. He suggested practicing everything with opposite bow directions so that you could play any way it happens to come out in the heat of the moment. That has really come in handy for fast reels when you get the bows backwards from the usual way you play it. Upbows are generally better for where you want an accent. I've heard many famous Irish fiddlers say that they bow a tune differently every time they play it. It's really a hard thing to do when your trained to do it the same every time.
Good luck and give yourself time.
Judi
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by bonniefiddler
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Wow, Martin Hayes told you to noodle? Finally I have a heavyweight to back me up in my fights with Jack!
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
I practise tunes rather than technique, with very mixed results. Should I be more systematic?
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Over the many years I've played in orchestras as a classical cellist I've noticed that the bowing direction is as often governed by how the conductor (or section leader) thinks it should look to the audience as the actual musical reasons for the bowing.
I've experienced many situations where the cellos were told to use the same up-down bowing as the violins (just so that it looked good - and this was actually said) whereas the fact of the matter was that up-down was technically more difficult for the cellos in that particular passage; down-up bowing would have been far better. However, for a few years, when that particular orchestra had a conductor who was an accomplished cellist, the cello section never seemed to have any bowing problems(!). Since playing the fiddle I've been a lot more pragmatic about my classical bowing on the cello.
It's also worth remembering that whereas today classical playing often requires an accent to be done with a down bow, 200 or more years ago an accent would have been done with an up bow. The playing style of ITM has a lot in common with that of the baroque period.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Phonsie, it's a very good idea every now and then to forget playing tunes for a week or so and instead concentrate on technical exercises. You'll come back to the tunes refreshed, and some problems, miraculously, may no longer be problems.
For the fiddle I'd recommend the Sevcik Studies. In particular, vol 1 will give you all the fingering technique you'll ever need, and more, for playing ITM. (Go religously through the later volumes of Sevcik and you'll get an outstanding classical technique as well!)
It's most important not to treat technical exercises (on any instrument, as well as the fiddle) as mere mechanical physical exercises for the muscles and tendons. The brain should be intimately involved as well, and you should try to treat each little exercise, even the shortest and simplest, as a mini fragment of real music, perhaps part of a tune. Then tehcnical exercises become intrinsically enjoyable and you'll get the most benefit from them.
Trevor
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
"Phonsie, it's a very good idea every now and then to forget playing tunes for a week or so and instead concentrate on technical exercises."
It is? Oh no! I've been doing this all wrong! Jimod, if you're going to follow Trevor's advice, make sure your technical exercises are Irish, not classical, or they'll do squat for your playing. Cuts, rolls, triplets, slides, variations (melody, dynamics and bowing). No need to drill pinky vibrato in third position, and you don't need to bother with "melodic minor" scales. Forget you ever heard of them.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Try the rhythm I posted on the recent thread about reels/hornpipes. If you do that, the accents and syncopation will come without you having to think about it. Don't do what Kevin Burke does.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
And if ye want to do what Kevin does? :P
-Pàdraig
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Why would you?
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
I Personally do not favour his style... I love listening to him, but I'm merely not interested in playing like him... Now the Mooneys .... if only.
merely playing Devil's advocate, sir Dow.
-Pàdraig
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
listen listen listen. It's been said many times so far and is the only way.
But the problem with wrong bowing hanging over from a previously learned musical genre is that it comes from hard wired neural connections in you brain. These will have formed via years of repatition/practice.
Unfortunatly the only way to undo this damage is to stop playing for a couple of months. But don't stop music. Listen listen listen. And learn tunes by ear and sing them. Then, after your sabatical, pic up the instrument and only play these new tunes. The bowing will come automatically because it's driven by the sound and not any pre-defined patern.
I've posted this bit of advice befor and it underlines the vital nature of this tradition being aural.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Weird...just yesterday I started to learn the King's Reel. Got the notes and played it and thought "God that is so not the right sheet music!". So... I went to the CD player and listened to a verison played by a fine Cape Bretoner while looking at the sheetmusic. THat's when the AH!!!! factor hit me, it waas the right sheetmusci afterall! I was able to put the accents and the bowing right. I'm classically trained as well and this seems to work for me, otherwise I play the damn tunes too fast, too flat and therefore too boring. Slowly with time some tunes are starting to come naturally, but LISTENING is what saving my arse.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by c_ya
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Thanks for all that, Trevor. Your comments are as always most enlightening. The time lapse in responding is due to my having too much wine on board to be able to handle the sobering reality you were putting up to me (not to mention the matter of sandwich blackmail on another thread). This thing about bowing. There are so many opinions on the subject. Is it like what Xenophanes said about existence, “All is but a web of woven guesses”? Or like breathing – something you do rather than think about, ie an anima thing? Coming from where I came from, I don’t understand the problems classical players have with bowing, as I’m not classically trained – or trained in any way apart from a few fairly desultory and inconsequential fiddle lessons about twenty-five years ago. So my relationship with the fiddle is mostly Sturm und Drang, interspersed with purple patches when the tunes seem to play themselves – as distinct from the consistently apparently effortless flowing style of say Kevin Burke. I have always suspected that classically trained players have an immense advantage, if for no other reason than that Kevin Burke was classically trained. So how did the generation of fiddlers from whom Kevin Burke learned his ITM learn to play – Bobby Casey, Martin Byrnes et al, and before them Michael Coleman and Paddy Killoran et al? Just listening to the album, “Paddy in the Smoke” the other day that features Bobby Casey and Martin Byrnes amongst others. What comes through it all – the spoon-playing, pub noise such as verbal backslapping etc – is the power and “solidity” of the playing as well as the stylistic accomplishment. Did they get a grounding in classical technique, like K Burke, before they “lit out for the territory”? Questions, questions, questions… For the sake of greater consistency, drive and “lift” in my playing I’m going to have to take your advice sooner or later; though in my present incarnation, tied to the mast of certain mundane trials and tribulations, I’m not in a position to embark on such an ambitious programme. In the meantime, all I can do is “keep on keepin’ on”.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Ha ha Jim, I love you. Do you think we could petition Jeremy to write some fancy computer stuff that when anyone asks anything to do with "how does such and such do such and such?", and automatic email is sent to said offender that says simply "listen listen listen"?f
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
On further sober reflection and with reference to points made by Kerri, Jim and Trevor in particular, I would add the following comments. Listening is obviously a sine qua non for learning music in the oral tradition, but it is not sufficient for effective playing. How do you perfect roll playing except by persistent practise. The roll on the high G, for example, a feature of so many tunes, which I find particularly difficult at a fast clip (possibly because of the peculiar clumsiness of the third finger as explained recently on another thread by somebody – Trevor, I think), would warrant a thread all to itself. A case in point is The Old Bush, which I’ve recently retrieved from the back catalogue. The reel itself is a slight enough old thing, unless it’s played well; but “played well” to my (perfectionist?) mind depends on getting those high G rolls spot on – like the way Sean Keane hits them in his rendering of the tune with Matt Molloy on the “Contentment is Wealth” album. The aforementioned K Burke is a master of the lightening fast rolls executed without breaking stride. And there’s the rub. It’s not enough to have a great bowing action if you can’t integrate the rolls etc into the swing and bounce of the music, which is first and foremost dance music. The kind of speed and precision required obviously cannot be attained by just listening, no matter how long and hard you listen, because it is a matter of digital dexterity. The problem is complicated by the fact that the roll has to be executed in a context of other digital manoeuvres probably unique to each tune, so it’s not just a matter of learning the G roll once and for all and “cutting and pasting” it where appropriate. It has to be practised in the context of the particular tune being learned. So I would go with Kerri on that. Practise, practise, practise… And if anybody has any ideas on the best way to practise those rolls I would love to hear about them.
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
I hope you take this in a constructive way, phonsie, as it is meant that way, but I think it is possible to play very good music withoutout ever 'mastering' a roll on the high G. I don't think it's correct to say they are 'a feature of so many tunes' - rather that they are a feature of many popular interpretations of those tunes by the sort of people who get recorded.
I stand by to be shot down in flames ....
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
I hate to state the obvious and that, but has anyone mentioned "looking" yet? I mean, you can listen to CDs and try and play what you hear, but some techniques are quicker learnt by watching a good player do their stuff. This isn't about just "listening". It's not like you go to a session with your eyes shut.
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Phonsie, do you mean the roll on the E string, containing the notes [g-a-g-f#-g], fingered [2-3-2-1-2], and played in jigs and reels as well?
If so, here's my take on it - don't try to shoehorn the complete roll into a tune if you're struggling with it. Build it up a little at a time.
Assuming you've just played played your first [g], make this the long note, followed by a quick pull-off from the [a] to the [g], then [f#], then [g]. So, giving the notes their time values, (main note, grace notes, main note), it would look something like this : [g...ag.f#.g...]
Hope this helps.
Jim
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Dow, I was getting all excited about posting "watch, watch, watch" at the end of this thread and then I saw you beat me to it. Blatant staring is how I've learned (theoretically, at least) what my fingers ought to do in order to produce the sounds I like.
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
So we've got a sophisticated, well-rounded, yet succinct training manual:
listen listen listen
watch watch watch
play play play
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
And could I add:
Keep it fun
(serious fun, of course!)
Music is a branch of the arts, not engineering.
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
ok, listen listen listen
watch watch watch
play play play
drink drink drink
;^)
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
For me it's:
drink drink drink
listen listen listen
watch watch watch
play play play
But then as I drink more, the order changes to:
drink drink drink
play play play
listen listen listen
watch watch watch
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
And by the end it's:
drink drink drink
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
I'll second that, Mark. The pints always improve my playing.
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Well, for me, the perfect formula is drink, listen, drink, listen, watch, play, play, drink, listen, listen, drink, watch, listen, play, play, drink, take a bathroom break, play play play, drink drink drink, take another bathroom break, then get kicked out of the bar because they've been closed for an hour and I've been ignoring their dirty looks, sneak a few more sips of my drink, go out into the cold and listen listen listen to the tunes still playing in my head. Then whistle whistle, hum, sing, skip, listen, and when I get home again, if I'm lucky and the room-mates aren't home, drink, drink, play (quietly), and, finally, sleep (where the cycle begins anew in my dreams).
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
my own $.02
Well, Kevin Burke would say "there's no right way to bow Irish music", but I don't think that's exactly true. At least when talking about the right way to bow classical music. I think what you should probably do is maybe find roots in another very DEFINED type of music, such as old-time fiddling's down-bowing. That'll really shake up your classical music paradigm. Brad Leftwich has a good series over at homespuntapes.com
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by sifudave54
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Shouldn't we rename this thread title to "Up wrists, Down pints and 'classical drinking'"??
Jim
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
There's no right way, but there are lots of wrong ways.
snicker, jim
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Jim Dorans' advice to Phonsie relates to advice our tutor gave us in a tune-learning workshop yesterday. The tune we were concentrating on was The Hunter's Purse (reel) and our tutor advised us not to use a roll when playing at speed, e.g. for dancers (his band does a lot of gigs for set dancers). He said it is more effective in these situations to use instead the occasional cut, grace note or slide up onto a note, but best not every time, nor in the same place in the tune.
Another point he made was that his personal experience was that he needed to practice a tune 200-300 times before he could say that he really had it, the acid test for which was to be able to carry on a fluent conversation with someone while he was playing the tune.
Trevor
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Kerri - 'Snicker,jim' - is that Jim Dorans (me), jimod, or Jim Troy? I couldn't quite understand what you meant!
Jim
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
That advice about the shortcuts makes a lot of sense, Trevor. I assume the "200-300 times" point is tongue-in-cheek, because if taken literally the ordinary part-time fiddler such as the present poster would have a very limited repertoire. I've just seen Zoe Conway on TG4 playing a reel. Ye gods, but she's a humdinger.
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Trevor,
Just expanding on what you said about rolls, cuts, etc....I've found that in playing gigs in some venues, the acoustics are so bright that sometimes the 'Full Monty' rolls just become a blur to listeners 40 feet away...another reason not to put so much emphasis on ornaments...more so when multiple melody instruments are playing together.
Jim
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Practicing a tune 200-300 times to get it into one's head has got me thinking.
There are currently about 3500 tunes in the Tunes section. Assuming 2500 of them are worth playing (ducking swiftly behind the parapet), averaging say 1 minute per tune, and practicing each tune 200 times equates to about 8300 hours of practice. At 4 hours per day, every day, these tunes would take about 5 years and 8 months to get into my head.
NURSE!!!
Trevor
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
.....and then you'd have to play them all backwards just to make sure you were really fluent with them. It's a hard life, mate!
Jim
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Er, Jim, you're not serious, are you?
Trevor
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Something I forgot to say about the tune workshop was that towards the end the tutor got us to pair the A part of The Hunter's Purse (reel) with the B part of The Rakes of Kildare (jig) - both in Ador - and repeating the sequence several times without a break so as to get us used to increasing the note playing speed (from 6/8 to 4/4) and vice versa while maintaining a constant 2 beats in the bar. We started slowly and gradually increased the tempo to set dancing speed. Then we did it with the B part of The Hunter's Purse paired with the A part of The Rakes of Kildare.
A not easy but very effective and rewarding exercise.
Trevor
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
The Sand Witches!
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Jim- Gay McKeon ??? If so, I got a lot of learning to do... Well, at least I can get a f and a g roll down
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by I_Fel
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
"Don't do what Kevin Burke does ?"
Why wouldn't you ?
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by BegF
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
You can get confused if you try to learn rolls by watching people, certainly everyone I know seems to execute them differently. From the sharp hammer on approach to the cross flick (more my technique) and verything else, it's not the look of a roll you're after, it's the sound.
Interesting note about the old bush: Previously I've suggested that there are certain "decorations" which are not there to "decorate" a tune, but are part and parcel of it. That snappy G roll is a great example of one of them. Anyone who plays the old bush without it is simply not playing the tune.
Interesting sub note: One of the things about diddley music's fluidity is that although a particular roll may be part of the tune, you can still leave it out occasionally as a variation. Anyone who has a problem with this inherant contradiction is simply not playing the tune
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Ha Ha - I like your phrasing !!!
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by BegF
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
I dunno, Micheal. I find it really helpful to watch people play. Of course I listen at the same time, but the combination of listening for sounds I like and watching to learn how they're made is what I do instead of lessons. I could have struggled for hours and never figured out how to do a roll if I'd never seen one done.
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Kerri Brown
In fact, if everybody does them differently that makes it even MORE important to see what sounds belong to which movement.
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Kerri, I'm not saying that watching didn't help you. And ofcourse the combitation of watching and listening is probably the best way to learn, but you know this. But how many different styles of roll playing have you seen? Did it confuse you at first?
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Not really. What confused me was the slowed down explanation I got at the start of my fiddling adventure. I couldn't figure out how playing EFDE could make the sound I was hearing on my albums until I saw the snap, flick, ("tickle"), or whatever you want to call it that makes it work.
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
"Don't do what Kevin Burke does?
Why wouldn't you?"
Because regardless of what you think of his playing, you'd only end up sounding like Kevin Burke and you'd have missed the whole point of the music. God I'm starting to sound like Michael but it's true.
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Yes, I remember that leap. And there really is no explanation of how a roll works, especially a written explanation (words or notation). You have to begin with a familiarity with the sound of it then work out you're own method, via hearing and seeing done.
In used to be a bit of a roll crusader. I thought I was helping people. When I'd come accross players trying to play diddley music with no rolls (excrutiatingly common in England) I'd take them aside and show them what was missing. The problem was, I'd show them, show them again, show them slower, etc and just be met with blank indifference. I'm pretty sure the problem was not my teaching (though I might have come accross as a bit agressive) it was the fact that said Englishman/woman had just never listened to rolls, so was not even aware of them, let alone how they should sound. They all said they loved Kevin Burke, but they never listened to him.
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Ah I'm with you.
Try the rhythm that you posted earlier, but don't do what Kevin Burke does ?
Trying to sound like Kevin Burke is different though from analysing his style and improving on your own from what you've learnt by listening and watching him....or have I "missed the whole point of music"?
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by BegF
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Yes that's what I meant. The rhythm I notated above is a general observation that applies to many many players. It's a basic rhythm thing, not an analysis of anyone's style. 2 very different things.
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
I thought you were saying something entirly different.
Boy, aren't I a right.....better not finish that sentence or I may got another ticking off
for my flowery language.
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by BegF
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
OK, so I threw out Kevin Burke's name as an example of someone that uses the up bow effectively for accenting. That was in reaction to Jimod's statement about always using a down bow for emphasis.
Jimod was also looking for advice on how to break his pattern. Learning one tune front to back in the bowing pattern of an established fiddler does not equate to forever sounding like that fiddler.
Padraig said he would rather sound Donegalish, and that is a good point. Listen to someone that plays in the style in which you would like to play. Then learn a tune from that person. Listen to the way that it is bowed and try to mimic it.
Now, unless you want to sound exactly like that person, then don't learn every tune from that person. Beg, borrow and steal from anyone you admire.
But do learn new tunes. Try to loosen your bowing up with the new tunes. Free your mind and ear. Don't try to go back and rework the old tunes until you get a body of new tunes with a better style.
Or do what Michael said and give up playing for a time. As a kid, I was taught classical and also played ITM. As a teen, I gave up playing for at least a year. When I started again, it was all ITM and it was like learning to bow all over again.
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Jode
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Ok, here's something that I've heard Wil espouse time upon time (I think it came down from Kevin Burke) - It doesn't matter how your bow moves... I mean, it can only go up, or down, right? So why worry about how your bows going, just as long as it's going, and there aren't love struck cats outside your window... There's a thrumming to the music, whether your using a bow, or a box, or your own two lungs, so as long as that thrum, or the nyaah, or the pulse, or whatever it is that your wanting to call it, is there, your on the right path.
Oh, and I'm going to have to go up to montana sometime and have will teach me how to do rolls, cos I caun't do 'em to save me life.
BUT! I'm thinking me trebles are coming along, so I'm happy....
-Pádraig
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Montana. Isn't that where all those candy floss tycoons hang out? The thing about Kevin Burke is that, as somebody said about Mozart, he's even better than he sounds. When I first heard him I thought that's the way I want to play the fiddle, just effortlessly pouring out those beautiful spirit-lifting dance tunes. Exactly what Yeats was writing about in "The Fiddler of Dooney", where "Folk dance like waves on the sea". The trouble is there is a lot more technique to his playing than is first apparent. His is the "art that conceals art". I heard play a gig in Galway in June and he more than lived up to even my stratospheric estimate of him. Of course there are other brilliant fiddlers. And it could be argued that Kevin Burke doesn't have the kind of umph in his playing that say Frankie Gavin or Tommy Peoples have. That's enough of the eulogy. What you were saying about the G roll in "The Old Bush", Michael -I agree with you that it is essential. But I find it almost impossible to get it right at full tilt, the way Sean Keane does. Another concern here is the possibility that one might incur repetitive strain injury by persisting with practising something that might be beyond ones physiological capability. Has anybody any views on that?
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
All things being equal, I don't think there's much chance of repetitive strain injury, unless you persist with something that is positively physically uncomfortable (and possibly with bad posture too).
When I was learning fiddle, I did both of these things until I put myself right. I had bad posture (a shoulder rest fixed that), and I struggled with things like the 5-note G-roll, trying to play it properly during a fast reel. It simply was not working, so I gave up playing 5-notes and simply used a two-note ornament instead.
Around the same time, I started lessons with a top classical teacher. I casually mentioned the difficulties with rolls etc, and his advice was not to fixate on them, but do some Sevcik exercises instead (remember, this was coming from a top violinist who did not play Irish music).
Lo and behold, after about two weeks practicing *one page* of the Sevcik exercise, I had the 5-note rolls literally rolling off the fingerboard without thinking - and sounding good and crisp too.
These exercises are designed to make the hand and fingers work fluently, to cope with trills, ornaments, rolls etc (anything out of the ordinary), *regardless* of the type of music you are playing.
Jim
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Would you be so kind as to point me in the direction of said Sevcik excersizes? especially the ones that would help wit' finger ornementation...
-Pádraig
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Apology to Frank Zappa. "candy floss tycoons" in my last longueur should of course have read "dental floss tycoons". I too intend to track down this Sevcik thing, as Trevor also recommended it. Jim, you should try a roll with hummus and sun-dried tomatoes; it's even better than a ham sangwidge.
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Pádraig and Phonsie, it looks like Jim Dorans has switched off for the night, and I've just come in from a really good session. So I'm feeling unusually generous, and here is the info you need to get hold of the Sevcík book.
Sevcík Violin Studies Opus 1 Part 1
(School of Violin technique - Exercises in the 1st Position. BOE005046)
ISMN: M2016 4062 4
Published by Bosworth & Co Ltd
Sales and Hire:
Music Sales Distribution Centre,
Newmarket Road,
Bury St Edmunds
Suffolk IP33 3YB
UK
Tel: +44 (0) 1284 702600
www.musicsales.com
e-mail: music@musicsales.co.uk
You should be able to get Sevcík in almost any good music shop. I know Bristol Violin Shop stock it, and they do mail order.
The first 20 pages of Sevcík have the most important finger exercises as far as the Irish fiddle player is concerned; go further into the book and you'll be entering classical violin territory which is necessary for the classical player but not all of which is required by the Irish fiddler (although you might like to look at the useful bowing exercises on pp 50-53).
A very important part of the book is Simon Fischer's very good advice on holding the fiddle, finger and hand position, and practice, at the beginning of the book, and this should be read and assimilated before the exercises are started.
BTW, Sevcík is spelled with a little tick (a small "v") over the "S" and "c", which would probably result in something very weird if I attempted to use it on this website. Note the acute accent over the "i". I think Sevcík is probably pronounced "Shev-chick".
Trevor
# Posted on October 19th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Well that got my attention! I like it when chicks shev--their legs, arm pits, wherever. In fact, I'd readily bow up and bown for a sheved chick....
Um, but how does this relate to Eye-tee-Em?
# Posted on October 19th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Thanks, Trevor, for the Sevcik info. I just ran out of time last night!
Phonsie, the roll with sun-dried tomatoes - is that in G or A ? Hic
Jim
# Posted on October 19th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
I've tried typing Sevcik with the twiddly bits over the letters. This is how it comes out: Ševčík.
Do other members get weird symbols or odd combinations of letter/numbers on their browsers?
Trevor
# Posted on October 19th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Well,
This is the longest post I've seen yet. Mind you I don't read them all. I just took the fiddle course at Sabhal Mor Ostaig with Alasdair Fraser. He talked a bit on classical players of which I am one. I can also say that i'm a fiddler now as well. Anyway he says there is no bridge across the water from being a classical player to becoming a fiddler. One must back down the path and start up a new one. Well said..I think. Anyway, lots was said about listen as the playing must come from inner language and listening to your inner drummer. All the above is helpful, but listen to a iddler with groove and when you finally recognize that you're hearing it you're on the right track. Bowing is critical but seems to come from having that inner language that spills out after you've listened to nothing else for 5 years. I even find that my classical play has more drive and energy since "becoming a fiddler". Two things I've just started doing are taping all my practices and listening to them right away and I put up a mirror and watch my bow arm, the energy/groove can really be seen or not and improved immediately. Our perceptions of how we sound and look are usually way off. Anyway, I hope this helps a little. Good luck
# Posted on October 19th 2004 by suzytee
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
i wonder if anyone's put the Sevcik exercises into ABC format...
# Posted on October 19th 2004 by rog
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Not to be pedantic here, Jim, but hummus has nothing to do with rice. Just remember, whatever way you look at a leg of ham, it's still a pig's arse.
# Posted on October 19th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Your magnanimity (a hoor of a word to spell)is appreciated, Jim. I was afraid I was a bit OTT with that. Pedantically speaking again, I also got the Yeats quote wrong back there - It should be "Folk dance like a wave on the sea" (ie, "wave" is singular). And a further reflection on the K Burke, F Gavin, T Peoples comment is the fact that despite their virtousity, the regional characteristics still come through in their playing. Just as I sense (imagine?) a jazz vibe in Liz Carroll's playing -reflecting her Chicago milieu? Is one allowed these kinds of off-the-wall comments even out here in cyber-space, I wonder.
# Posted on October 20th 2004 by An Goban Saor
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Rog, I really think it would be easier and more productive to learn to read the dots than to convert the Ševčík exercises into ABC format.
There's a lot of complex, and important, information in the Ševčík exercises - instructions as to what fingers to hold down or raise, phrasing, attack, types of bowing, etc which would be difficult (if not impossible) and confusing to convert into ABC format. Just putting the plain dots of Ševčík into ABC without the further information and instructions would be rather like trying to play an Irish reel from the ABC (or dots) AND make it sound authentic without ever having heard Irish music being played!
The Ševčík exercises aren't tunes but training exercises designed to give strength, flexibility and mobility to the fingers; and as Jim Dorans said, the results can be applied to playing any kind of music. Think of the Ševčík exercises as being like circuit training for the fingers. Circuit training in the gym gives you the strength, speed and stamina which you can then apply to your chosen sport.
Trevor
# Posted on October 20th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Up bows,Down bows and 'classical training'
Hi all I'm the original poster Jim who has since left London to live in Sligo (couldn't afford the parking tickets). At least one night a week I play with Peter Horan (Flute, Fiddle), Roger Sherlock's brother. There are so many people who play flute and/or fiddle around here that you're just immersed in it. And I find the style is surely but slowly changing. And yet I can flip back to classical if I want. A big hello to Ted of Roisin Dubh, Gurteen who has been there for 25 years!
I'm off to Wynne's Bar, Boyle tonight where the two McGreevy brothers are likely to make you head for home with a severe inferiority complex.
Jim - ex Garratt Lane
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by hoopoe