I'd like some feed back from this group on a disturbing message I got today in our local slow session discussion group that has not only made me think but has also ticked me off a little.
I'm drafting my reply to this now, but getting a take on this from some of you could prove enlightening.
Here is the message:
"These musical adventures we undertake are fun but challenging. It is important to "always" encourage others, and never to "discourage them on the journey.
I was told not to waste my time buying a nicer fiddle as my "caliber" of playing was insufficient for such an instrument. I may, in fact, not play all that well, true, but my hearing is fine. I know, as an adult learner, and I have a long way to go. I survive on hope and a promise to myself to play better each day. So what if I want a nice instrument!
I am really discouraged now, and will pause in my playing as I am not sure about my musical path. I think now that mabey I have been just fooling myself to think at my age I could play the fiddle. I am sad and embarassed, but I wanted to tell you all, please, please, please, never discourage the good hopes of others."
Don't misunderstand, I recieved this message I didn't write it. They'll get my fiddle out of my hands when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. Heck, I've been called a hack by some of the best - lol - and still keep playing.
The bit in quotes is the message I recieved in another group from a player in our slow session. I am going to reply with my opinion of soemone telling him that at his "caliber" he shouldn't buy a better fiddle.
Well then I'd reply to the writer as I replied to you.
Depending on what I knew of him/her or course.
I had an adult fiddle student many years ago who was having great difficulty and who I thought was doomed to years of frustration. I was about to broach the subject when she told me firmly, "If you're going to suggest I should learn the accordion or the whistle or something easier, don't bother, I want to be a fiddle player."
Now, over a decade of determined effort later, she still sounds almost exactly the same as she did then - hopelessly out of tune, hopelessly out of time... you get the picture.
The fiddle is a very hard instrument to learn once you're over about 25.
Do you still encourage where you think there is no hope, or do you think a reality check is in order?
Ah okay, so it wasn't you who told him to get a better fiddle, it was someone else. Now he's complaining to you and you're angry about it and you're going to write back and tell him he's right for being angry. Is that right?
I wouldn't pass judgement otherwise chins will wag, people will start taking sides, and it'll get out of hand and nobody will want to play with anyone else. Also you're going on 2nd hand evidence. You don't know exactly how the original statement was worded. What if the person was overly sensitive and just took it the wrong way? What if, for example, this person said something like "yeah, don't you just love buying new instruments, but I'll tell you what, last time I did it I figured it wasn't worth the money I spent on it, 'cause I thought it would make me a better player and it didn't". Person listening thinks: "this is a veiled comment about my playing".
I don't think it's necessarily true that getting a better instrument doesn't make you a better player. Better quality instruments are generally easier to play because they're better-made, the moving parts move more slowly, someone somewhere has taken the time to set it up precisely etc. Not only that, but it can be very motivating to have a good instrument. If you're making better sounds out of it just because it's better quality, it can encourage you to push yourself and see just what it's possible to achieve with it.
So, if this person has the money to buy a good instrument and they *want* it, tell them to go ahead and get it. They can't do themselves any harm by doing so, so it can only be a positive thing.
As for the "calibre" argument, well just tell them to ignore it (and get used to it).
I may be naive but, the point of my question to this group, and the point I took from the message this guy posted to our group goes back to the subject line, should a player ever be discouraged outright?
Apart from the professionals here that actually earn a living playing, why are the rest of us playing this music anyway?
Here is my reply to him in our slow session group:
"I understand and agree strongly with your point. We always need to encourage each other, it should be part of the tradition.
To me personally, the purpose of learning and sharing this music has so much more to do with inward, personal, growth than with refining ability. Although the two can be tightly entwined, as the abilities increase so do the personal rewards.
Please don't let ill-advised comments have a negative impact on your will to play. Indeed the "caliber" of a player is subjective on so many levels. One may aspire to become another Tommy Peoples, or perhaps a solid session musician contributing to the group or just for the joy of learning and playing these tunes. The level one achieves and the quality of the instrument they play is their business. It is not subject to the evaluation or "approval" of another.
As for learning late in life, I recently met a wonderful fiddler from New York. This old fellow knows hundreds and hundreds of tunes and can play along with the best session musicians. Although he played a little as a child, he got rid of his fiddle as a young man and didn't touch one for over 30 years. Now his playing is a joy to hear.
Bottom line, take critisim that is not constructive with a grain of salt and enjoy playing."
Again, we're a bit confused here, but the situation there are three (not two) people involved here: 1.the person who wants the new fiddle, 2.the person who told the first person not to get the new fiddle and 3.your good self, wondering what to reply to nr.1.
There are two related issues here (I'm on a numbering things kick today)
1. Was person 2 out of line in what s/he said to person 1. and should you respond?
I agree with Dow that this ain't necessarily so. Perhaps person 2. is an experienced teacher or player and person 1 asked him/her for advice like so: "I've seen this fiddle which I really like. Do you think I'm playing badly because the old yoke I've got is holding me back and do I *need* to buy this to improve me playing? If 2. then gives their honest opinion and 1. throws a hissy fit because it wasn't what they wanted to hear then you can't really blame 2.
Then on the other hand, if 2. comes in and writes they're so happy about this fiddle they are going to buy and two says, completely unasked for, "why bother, you're crap anyway" that's a different thing altogether. If I were you I would only get involved if you thought 2 was being mean and you want to send some fuzzy vibes to 1. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't want to get involved.
2. Second issue. Should people be encouraged at all time?
Here I am going to strongly disagree with what Brother Steve says. Why on earth would you want to stop someone from playing the fiddle if they show such admirable determination in wanting to do so? Sure, maybe you have different standards for want you want to achieve with your music, but if she wants to play fiddle it really is no good to ask her to play the box or whistle. Boxes or whistles aren't fiddles. I suggest you let her and yes, encourage her.
(If her out of tune playing is not sitting nicely in your tasteful session, that might be a problem, but that is a separate issue to whether of not she ought to be encouraged in learning to play a certain instrument)
It's possible the person who advised against buying a new fiddle was malicious and intentionally discouraging, but more probable that he / she was either a) jealous or b) trying to be helpful drawing on personal experience. Maybe the cruel dude you're talking about bought a nice fiddle once and then gave up, and now the thing stares him in the face, shaming him day after day, and he's trying to help your friend avoid that same hell.
A nice instrument does make you a better player. I learned that when I traded my Yamaha in for a Martin.
I was 23 before I touched a fiddle. I'm 29 now and it's going pretty well. I don't feel seriously disadvantaged compared to the wiz kids who picked it up at six. I'm getting kicks they never would have had, I think, from the perspective on struggle and accomplishment my extra years have given me.
Anyway, your friend shouldn't waste time being incensed and discouraged. As Steve says, you need a thick skin. Just write it off as an ill-thought out but probably well-intentioned remark and move on. Even if it wasn't well intentioned, the only other option is "petty", as far as I can see.
But complaining about it to all your friends is equally petty.
That's true FiddleMeThis; it does have more to do with "inward, personal, growth than with refining ability." That's why Dow chose the English system concertina over the Anglo (that is far better suited for ITM.) He wasn't interested in getting the music right, but rather, he wanted to finally grow-up. I suppose I should really cease discouraging him about his Brit-box choice, I encourage anyone’s efforts to evolve in a positive way.
Oh, yeah, to respond to the statement "ALWAYS encourage, NEVER discourage." That sounds like horse pucky to me. I would never discourage anyone from a general interest in ITM, but I will strongly discourage people from bashing out terrible guitar chords in my ear, or slapping on a bodhran as if it were the bottom of a naughty child. I'd also discourage someone from stealing my beer or kicking my chair in time to the music. I don't think this makes me malicious. I've taken my share of both encouragement and constructive criticism, and I find the constructive criticism a lot more useful than candy-coated enthusiasm.
Awhile back, someone who wanted to learn the fiddle asked me to take a look at an instrument for her. I played it and it was obviously well made, but it had that new tone. I said it was pretty good and asked how much it was going for, if she didn't me asking.
I can't remember, but I think she said $5000. I think I may have said something like "Well I am not sure I would pay that much for it. And you may not need to spend that much for a starter instrument." This person had never played a note before, but obviously had the cash flow.
Sometimes peoples opinions are based on the money spent. And perhaps that is jealousy. Or is there something else to it?
I don't think there is an upper age limit for learning the fiddle, within reason. Perhaps if you've got arthritis or some other ailment, there could be a problem. Of course, you'll never be a first class musician but, if that's what you have to be, why are the majority of us playing in the first place? I didn't touch a fiddle(though I played guitar and mandolin a bit) until my thirties and didn't start serious practice until my forties. I'm not great but I enjoy my music and am continually improving. That's all I really ask. I purchased a much better (though not excessively expensive) fiddle a few years ago and a really good bow. It's a much nicer sound and has encouraged me to play all the more and get even better.
In abstract, SL*, I quite agree with your disagreement with me. But this was a specific case.
I didn't discourage the player in question, actually, quite the reverse, as I'm sure she would concur. It's just that I sensed the potential for enormous frustration. I judged, correctly as time was to prove, that the would-be fiddler presented so many serious obstacles (huge tension in the upper body, a very poor ear that I had precious little success in training, and the like) that she would never achieve the level that she so desperately wanted to reach, which was to sit in, play along with and be accepted by the "big boys" at high-level sessions.
(OK I lied, it was a he. I wanted to disguise it in case he ever came across this site and this thread. It was a macho thing, the determination, the "big boys" and all that.) I just felt that on a box or a mandolin, at least the defective ear would not cause other musicians the pain that it does on the fiddle, and also that the player's frustration quotient would be lower. I didn't press the issue when he told me not to bother trying to persuade him to take up something else.
He is still at it, with the same dogged determination. Having fun? Yes, no doubt, but deep down bitterly disappointed I feel. After a few years he stopped asking me "How long do you think it will be before I can sit in with the big boys at the sessions?" I always gave politician's answers, to try not to discourage.
Kerry - taking up the fiddle as an adult is very different for those who already play an instrument than it is for those who have never played anything.
FiddleMeThis - learning the fiddle as inner growth is all very well as an idea. Except that I think most people actually approach it with the idea of learning to play well.
You might never be able to sit in with the "big boys" but still be a reasonably good player. Being able to fit in a session isn't all about musical expertise or technical wizardy, in any case. It's about knowing or being prepared to learn the session repertoire and the particular style of the session. You can manage that with just half a dozen tunes, if you hit the right session and, sometimes you might not "fit in" even if you've been playing for years and know thousands of tunes.
Jack said: "That's why Dow chose the English system concertina over the Anglo (that is far better suited for ITM.) He wasn't interested in getting the music right, but rather, he wanted to finally grow-up".
A fine discussion this is! I would like to add 2 cents, or maybe even 3.
"Always encourage, never discourage". Criticism can be delivered with encouragement. If done correctly, criticism is a gift. To paraphrase several verses from the Book of Proverbs, a wise man listens to criticism and profits from it. During my first lesson with him, one of my early guitar teachers told me that I was his best student and the only one at that time with any potential. In his next breath he said that he wouldn't be wasting any more of our time with compliments, and proceeded to point out several ways that my playing needed to improve. I received great benefit from his encouraging criticism.
I hope to address a couple other points brought out in this string, but work calls...will try to get back here later.
Steve: To me motivation to play and approach to playing are two different things. While what motivates me is the inner satisfaction I get, my approach is to play the best I can and constantly improve. Of course, the better I play, the more satisfaction I get out of playing. One feeds the other.
I agree that being honest with someone about their playing is the right way to go, if they want to play in the "big boy" sessions and their natural abilities are never going to live up to their aspirations, be honest with them. Get them to re-evaluate their goals.
DAMN! - I've skipped to the bottom and haven't yet read the other comments, because I'm so damned mad about this. AAAAAAAAA!!! A good instrument calls you out to it. I have seen so many musicians give up because the instrument they had just didn't inspire them or challenge them to work with it. A good instrument, whatever the type, just sounds good on simple things, as well as promising more as you develop your understanding of it. There are a lot of bad teachers out there, not just music, and I have come across people who had a passion for something, whether it is gardening, maths, or music, and some asshole, though let us say instead 'ignorant', quashed the hopes and spark of another. Is it that they want to feed off of others by putting out another's flame so their can seem to burn brighter? What's with such people? Why? I have constantly found people who came to something 'late', music, dance, whatever, and in their own way they accomplished something to be proud of. Every little step counts. I just finished teaching my wife to ride a bicycle - and every little accomplishment was such a high for us both. If I had focused in on what she couldn't do, at the time, she would have given up, she would have cried too and never considered a bicycle again.
Always encourage, never discourage, and if you are going to critique something, make it constructive and do it with love, and only do it when you have a mutual understanding and respect - and it has to be 'constructive'. Mind you, I'm not feeling very constructive about what has been done to you. I'm so angry I'm shaking. I've seen it before. I've seen it with my dear neice who was told she might as well give up dance because she was 'large'. She's not 'fat', she is large because she does a lot of sports and the muscles were thought to be unsightly and not delicate enough for this particular dance teacher. So, you've got me steaming and upset. Don't let them win, don't take it, don't stick with the jerk who did this to you - there are mostly good folk out there and on this site and you don't need to put up with those that would put down your inspiration and your passion...GRRRRRRRRR!!!
I'd rather listen to the sound of 100 banjos, each playing different tunes concurrently, than one anglo concertina. See? That's how much I have to dislike anglos in order to maintain my position as chairperson of the Low-Caste Frowned-Upon Brotherhood.
So, John, you think that it comes down to being a social thing? The "musical conversation" metaphor comes up again and again; listen, be well-informed (know your tunes), and listen some more. Rules of polite discourse.
On new instruments: It is unfortunate that 'beginner' instruments are so darned hard to play. The difference between a student fiddle or whatever and what you end up buying when the budget permits is so great; it's always a wonder to me that anyone gets past those first few years. I guess it's a pearls before swine situation in the beginning, but why deny yourself the pleasure of a new instrument?
Kerri--yes, I will always go with the constructive suggestion over all the huggy, 'it's all good' fairy dust. If you're going to do something, do it right. My dear husband says that trad music should either make you weep or make you dance; I prefer to make people weep for the right reasons.
Well, my hands have stopped shaking, maybe it's the DTs, anyway, I've read the replies, some nice comment, and I'm pretty much with Dow, as what would stirring the waters do? You can just be a good mate and support the dreams of your friend, and ignore the BS from the other end. It isn't worthy of comment or bother, though I seem to have taken up the flame here, sorry.
About encouraging, a short story, we had this bloke in Dublin who had just a couple of steps, and whatever music you were playing he danced the same steps, and they weren't good, and they were out of time, and it was embarrassing for some. However, it was all he had, and he loved it, and he took great joy in it. So, we used to call him out for a step, actually, usually twice in an evening of ceiling. It was a monthly ceili he always attended. We'd say, "Paddy, dance us a reel", and he'd do his few steps over and over again, maybe 5 minutes worth, a break while the rest of us passed out the tea and biscuits. And then later we'd say, "Hey Paddy, would you dance us a slip jig?" - and of course he would, and that would be the one chance we had to play a slip jig in the evening, and it would be another break. We never discouraged him, even though he wasn't much of a dancer really. He got great pleasure from it, and we weren't going to take that from him.
There was also a regular session in the countryside, Tipperary, where there was this old guy who couldn't play the fiddle, but did, and they always made time for him to do his party piece, however dire it was, they loved the old guy and took pleasure in his pleasure. He was never discouraged, but he also was considerate and didn't play except his one party piece. He would sometimes just put the fiddle and bow up and pretend to play, or so it seemed, without enough rosin to cause anyone any real pain...
For inexperienced players it is more important to have a good instrument. A good instrument is easier to play and make sound good. Experienced players can make junk sound good.
Whoa, ceolachan, you said it much better while I was ruminating on this one. Your niece's dance teacher is an ogre. I had one as a child, and will never forget how she favored the willowy types over the rest of us. Irony: those willowy types are no longer willowy; I can still dance.
In any business or other enterprise a good manager will always try to encourage and praise those under him, rather than the opposite, which has a negative effect on productivity. Of course, that is not to say that criticism shouldn't be made when appropriate, but even then the criticism should contain as many constructive elements as possible.
Plese don't be discouraged. I have just started lessons in September at the age of 54.
I'm loving it and lesson day is the highlight of my week. I've been playing for a long time but not very well. Getting rid of the bad habits I've developed over the years is the hardest part. Put the rude comments aside and just get on with your playing. Buy a Strad if you want one! Do your best and enjoy yourself.
Mary
I have known several fine musicians who started as adults, even over the age of 30 or 40. I once had a guitar student who picked up her first musical instrument at the age of 62 and quickly developed into a fine backup player for the singers that she wanted to accompany. Use the advantages of learning that come from the adult perspective, and let the experience help you keep the flame of youth alive in you. My Grandmother has all the wisdom of her 90 years, and still has the exuberance and fire of a 16 year old.
I must admit my sins, but I only feel this way about folks who's self-worth is so large that no amount of discouragement seems to work. But I have lapsed and in such cases I have sometimes, after trying everything else, stooped to being discouraging, such as - "Maybe this isn't the right event for you?", or "Do you know how to play 'Far, far away'?" But, hey, what use, the folks who aggravate that out of me seem to be untouchable anyway.
But, I've never discouraged a 'beginner' who has that 'beginners mind', something my wife and I try to keep awake in ourseves. We both share the same lack of patience with large egos, but we also try to temper ourselves, though she does it better than I do, and I do better when she's kicking me under the table or poking me in the side, or squeezing the blood out of my hand.
One of my favoured dance partners of 'old', was a lady in her 70s, who was a 'beginner' and who's joy was contagious..
So, 'Anitkhntr', did I spell that right? - anyway, what are you taking lessons in? Good luck...
There are also people who's self worth is so low that they cannot receive constructive criticism.
I am probably wrong, but perhaps the offender used a poor choice of words to tell the offendee that they shouldn't over-spend on a new fiddle.
You don't have to pay that much for a well setup, functional fiddle that has a good sound. But you can pay 2 or 4 times as much for the same kind of fiddle that has some reputable name on it. (And some dealers are willing to let you spend as much as you like!)
In the example that I used above, I told the buyer that she probably did not have to spend that much. Why, because I spent less on my fiddle and it is a nicer instrument.
Nothing gives us the right as musicians to discourage another, regardless of age, experience, and skill. Music is a thing that brings us together for the love of it, and we are a community. We should think of ourselves as always seeking to gain knowlege of the music for ourselves but for the goal of passing on that bknowledge as well. Talking down to another musician is just sickening and wrong. That is unless they are up in a cloud of their own and think that they're netter than everyone else, in which case you talk them down enough to get them back level with the rest of us. There, that's my ramble.
I'm taking fiddle lessons. My instructor teaches a vaiety of different styles blues, classical, jazz, Celtic etc. He's allowing me to bring the music I'd like to work from, which of course a large majority comes from The Session. In addition he gives me bowing exercices, scales, note sequences and all the usual stuff. It's hard work but I love it. I think I'm addicted to practicing.
Mary
What is all this hocus pocus about beginner instruments anyway? Is your musical genius supposed to outgrow your instrument like a schoolboy does shoes? Are you supposed to "earn" the right to decent tools by learning how to use them properly? Any jackass can stroll into Revy and buy a tablesaw regardless of whether or not he can nail two sticks together. If I had a few thousand spare bucks I'd be upgrading my state-of-the-art recording studio even though I've never recorded anything that couldn't be accomplished with a garage sale tape deck. Why work if not for the freedom of frivolous spending?
Rant rant rant. I'm trying to say, who cares if it's a waste of money, but it's out of context because a decent instrument is NEVER a waste of money. I love my instruments. When I pick up instruments of lower quality it puts me off playing altogether. Especially fiddles. It's howling away right nest to your ear. If the tone isn't pleasing, you won't want to play.
Here's a bit of helpful advice though - if your friend is a beginner he / she ought to bring an experienced player shopping to point out the merits or defaults your friend might not notice.
Yes Kerri - always have an experienced other on hand if you lack that experience yourself. As someone said earlier, a good player can make cardboard sound passable. And, no, quality isn't always confirmed by a high price, but it does usually cost something more than those Chinese matchboxes. I hate revealing this, but I did quit because of it, but I used to work in a music shop in the South of England where they brought in a load of these 15 quid fiddles and did a few minor tweaks on them and sold them for 100. They were time bombs, doomed to eventually self-destruct, and they weren't even good for hampster homes. So, as we often say, buyer beware - and be informed, or have a friend along who is. There have been some great disappointments caused from bad instruments, including the worst - people giving up.
About my admitting occassionally failing and resorting to discouragement, I should have stressed - it happens when I'm faced with someone akin to as suggested here, who by their very large presence and shadow casting - discourages others, discourages community, discourages sharing, discourages beginners - then I weaken and I want to kick them in the - - - ...to discourage them back...
Exactly, c. The way I see it, a two hundred dollar instrument that is good for nothing but ornamenting the wall of a pub is a much bigger waste of money than a three thousand dollar instrument that begs to be played. Buying a crappy axe because it's a deal is like buying size 4 shoes because they're half price when your feet are size 9.
Also, I think the phrase "good beginner instrument" is right up there with "military intelligence" as far as self-annihilating word couplings are concerned.
Ooh, and another thing! If you buy a decent instrument it will hold its value or the value will increase. A crap instrument loses most of its value the minute you walk out the door of the shop. If you decide to get rid of it you'll be lucky if you can cover it in foam rubber and pass it off as a ping pong raquet at a garage sale.
Sore point Kerri. I've fat feet and my folks used to just fit anything on them, working from a tight budget, so whenever I could I went barefoot, still prefer that to badly fitting shoes. I once had custom fitted shoes, built around my weird pads, and what heaven. I can say the same for a well made instrument built around the art of making music... They sing on their own, just begging you to grab ahold and sound them out...
And - if you've bought wisely and you suddenly find the 'fiddle' isn't the instrument for you in the long run, as Kerri put it - you've made a wise investment, can sell it without a loss and use the profits for your next venture - guitar, flute, whatever...
With the person that wanted to spend $5000 for her first fiddle, I ended up walking away thinking "Well, if she has a bunch of money, I guess she can spend whatever she wants to on an instrument. She may not get anything better than the next person, but she'll be happy."
Well, everyone else and their dog has had their tuppenceworth on this thread, not that I've read even half of it, so I thought I'd come in and repeat what is obvious.
Sh!tebag person who made the "calibre" remark had absolutely no right to. Nor to make any judgement on how you spend your money. Nor should you give a monkey's about the artistic opinions of someone so short of basic manners.
We had a whistle player turn up tonight whom no-one had ever seen before. He joined in where he could, started off some tunes...which were often one reel... played 6x over. But that was fine!...sort of...who would want to discourage the guy, he was only doing what he knew. None of us discouraged him. In fact, I'd say by allowing him space at a good quality session, which is laid back, but not a clinical cathedral job like Jack's, we did this guy a favour. And there was enough strength in depth in the session to absorb yer man.
Let's see, my most discouraging comment to a hack guitar player at a session: "either get the chords right or the rhythm right, but you've got to get one of the two to play with us."
I guess I was encouraging him to get something right... yeah that's it, I encouraged him.... yeah.
I think we're all in rat's alley, where the dead men lost their bones.
Yikes, Rab! "not a clinical cathedral job like Jack's"! Them's fightin' words!
I almost feel like sticking up for poor Jack, but I've never been to his session. I have this vision in my head that it would be more like putting on a great CD and drinking a pint while enjoying it than it would be like the bedlam I partake in (I've listened to the MP3s!) Anyway, I can't stick up for Jack, because we're mortal enemies (at least as far as noodling is concerned.)
So I'll just reiterate my position that the insulted aspiring fidder in question should blow as much cash as he possibly can on his instrument, just to spite the twit who doesn't think he "earned" it. Even if he never improves, it will be a legacy to his embarassed children. A beautiful family heirloom. You just can't pull that off with a ten dollar ukelele. Or a shaky egg. Or two rocks that you bash together. (Although maybe if you had a particularly beautiful autumn leaf skeleton that you gently blew across to honour the gods you'd be getting back into heirloom territory.)
Ahem, to clarify - kiddiewinkies generally must a) fit in with Mummy and Daddy's budget and b) prove they can care for a basic instrument before they get their first Strad. Didn't meant to imply that I think it's OK to give children bad instruments.
Eliot,
Many, many, years ago, a piano accordian player (of all people) flared up at me during a session and shouted "If yer gonnae(He was Scottish, by the way)f---ing strum, then use a softer pick!" I was a little upset at the time but I did realise that there was a bit more to accompanying tunes than merely strumming the chords and it required a bit more subtlety that I thought. I also concentrated even more on melody instruments from then and although my backup technique has improved greatly, the guitar still features less prominently in my session activities.
Just to stick up for older learners - I recognise comments from many kindred spirits on these pages who get bitten by the bug and are playing obsessively like they never would when younger. Kids can rapidly go through their grades on violin on about 10 minutes reluctant practice each day, then leave the thing lying neglected when their hormones kick in. Are there any other "older people" out there who have changed places with their offspring and are making good use of a pretty good instrument that they might have struggled to pay for in installments? The offspring meanwhile are deafening themselves with dad's old strat.
There are times, when you know each other well enough and there's a certain respect built up, that 'slagging' can be a way of 'encourging'. It's what's behind the shovelling and the way you shovel it. Though, some Freudeans would say something about that I'm sure, and that a session is a quagmire of unbalanced egos full of pent up aggression... "Meow!"
Hmmm, The problem with this thread is that it's back to front.
I could say to someone, "That was a lovely tune you played there", and they either think, "That's great, my playing is so natural that it allowed the tune to be itself without getting distracted by technique,"
OR
"bastard, he thought I was so shite that he was too embaressed to mention my playing so just said the tune was nice instead."
The point being, encouragement or discouragement is largely in the beholder. So whether you make a point of deliberatly discouraging or encouraging, it will be largely lost on the recipient due to either arrogance or rampant paranoia.
Case study No2:
A kid sat down behind me the other day with an unfeasably large button accordion. He played a set of tunes at about the volume of thirty fiddles (the rest of the company was four fiddles and a flute). I politely asked him if he could turn some of his reeds of, you know, like, "I love the sound of the oboe reed on it's own" kind of thing. And he packed up and went home in a huff. What can you do?
I would never discourage anyone from playing. I would discourage some from playing in my presence though.
re, Michal's bIg Accordion kid, I would say "Jeez that's f@€kin loud! Let me just play this one without any accordion cos I can't hear myself otherwise"
Bren, I'll do that favour for you next week. I've been *supposedly* busy of late trying to study for an exam. Unfortunately, there's been one or two distractions and, if not, I seem to create them.
I agree with Michael that encouragement is mostly in the beholder. I’d like to add that I think the level at which a comment can be misconstrued is related to how well the receiver knows the person making the comment. It seems that people read in to a comment far more when it’s coming from someone they don’t know. I think that’s because when we deal with strangers, we’re really in that ‘feeling-out’ mode of communication, and that’s compounded in this case because music is such an internal, personal kind of communication. So, you’re never going to fully know what the offended person really heard from this apparently discouraging other. I would say, stay out of the fire because you don’t have all the facts.
Right on Mike! That is pretty well exactly the conclusion I came to thinking about all this last night. But the world in general, and web discussion forums in particular, would be awful quiet if everyone refrained from commenting on an exchange they weren't party to, or at least present at. Wouldn't it?
Defintely BSteve...I totally agree. This is the perfect forum for someone to here out the opinions of others who are close to those kinds of situations.
I actually missed it Kerri because I was returning from a long Thanksgiving weekend with family! So this Tuesday the 19th I'm finally going. Can't wait
Eliot's right.
general slagging at a session is a form of bonding, though it's not entirely frivolous, and is partly a way of us saying what we think of others in a codified way that renders criticism acceptable and actually pulls the players together. One of the side-benefits of it is to give us all thick hides that protect us when someone is genuinely nasty to us.
oh, I don't know...I agree there's a time & place, and you need to know the slaggers/slaggées pretty well. I'm used to taking it, but from certain people eg, Aidan, Billy & Cath. But I've known the occasional person whom I've felt meant what they said with a degree of malice or superciliousness (if that's the correct noun)...and they aren't pleasant persons to be around.
An anecdote-ette to show how nice and a warm wonderful human being am I. Whilst waiting at the bar for drinks last night, I was accosted by our fan....a kind of pissed up, not a high IQ scorer, fat geezerish geezer, but pleasant enough, when he isn't mouthing off such excreta as the following...
"I'll be bringing my BODraan along soon, ya know" says he.
"Aye, good man yersell. We'll aw' luk forward tae hearin' ye" replies Rab.
"Yeah, I got it in for repair, mate. I'm savin' up for the repair bill, an' it's gonna cos' me 600 quid, mate."
"Jeez, that sounds lit some Bowrawnn, pal!" ejaculates Rab, in fake amazement...
Yeah right. We've had the Brass Fiddle, looks like we've now got a solid gold bodhrán. From a diamond geezah.
Kerri - I had to wait a few minutes to stop laughing before trying to muster some reply. The diction :~} I used was in the spirit of one of my favourite lines from reading some Sherlock Holmes story way back. Can't remember the story, just the sense of the paragraph, which I'll paraphrase:
"...Mrs Watson ran down the stairs, closely followed by Dr. Watson, ejaculating..."
Such Naíveté, had those Victorians. Sherlock of course was an opium junkie...and even worse, a fiddle player!
yeah, yeah. This one must truly be up among the favourites for the vote for the coveted title: "The Session.org Thread that Fizzled Out with the Biggest Amount of Bollox on the End (subsection 23.1: category for sexual innuendos...with a special prize of Gold Ring)
Oh, I don't know about that...this is about par for the course. You people need to get your minds out of the gutter. Now that isn't one of Those Gold Rings, is it?
Don't bother starting a good thread, this thread is about as good as you could ever come up with. Your callibre of discourse does not deserve a thread any better than this one. So be satisfied with the thread you're participating in, and don't go dreaming of more valuable ones that are beyond your ability.
We were so poor we used to take turns unravelling bits of clothing to make thread soup. It always got more flavourful the closer to the skin we got, and colder...
Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I'd like some feed back from this group on a disturbing message I got today in our local slow session discussion group that has not only made me think but has also ticked me off a little.
I'm drafting my reply to this now, but getting a take on this from some of you could prove enlightening.
Here is the message:
"These musical adventures we undertake are fun but challenging. It is important to "always" encourage others, and never to "discourage them on the journey.
I was told not to waste my time buying a nicer fiddle as my "caliber" of playing was insufficient for such an instrument. I may, in fact, not play all that well, true, but my hearing is fine. I know, as an adult learner, and I have a long way to go. I survive on hope and a promise to myself to play better each day. So what if I want a nice instrument!
I am really discouraged now, and will pause in my playing as I am not sure about my musical path. I think now that mabey I have been just fooling myself to think at my age I could play the fiddle. I am sad and embarassed, but I wanted to tell you all, please, please, please, never discourage the good hopes of others."
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by RogueFiddler
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Well I'd have told you not to waste your money buying a nicer fiddle, not your time.
Only joking. You need a thick skin in the bizzo. Why not skip the reply, get the fiddle, work at it and show them all they were wrong?
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Don't misunderstand, I recieved this message I didn't write it. They'll get my fiddle out of my hands when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. Heck, I've been called a hack by some of the best - lol - and still keep playing.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by RogueFiddler
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Oops. _this_ bizzo.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I can't work out whether the bit in quotes is the message that you got from someone at this group or whether it's your reply.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Are they criticizing you for telling them not to get a new fiddle? I really don't get what's going on here.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
The bit in quotes is the message I recieved in another group from a player in our slow session. I am going to reply with my opinion of soemone telling him that at his "caliber" he shouldn't buy a better fiddle.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by RogueFiddler
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Well then I'd reply to the writer as I replied to you.
Depending on what I knew of him/her or course.
I had an adult fiddle student many years ago who was having great difficulty and who I thought was doomed to years of frustration. I was about to broach the subject when she told me firmly, "If you're going to suggest I should learn the accordion or the whistle or something easier, don't bother, I want to be a fiddle player."
Now, over a decade of determined effort later, she still sounds almost exactly the same as she did then - hopelessly out of tune, hopelessly out of time... you get the picture.
The fiddle is a very hard instrument to learn once you're over about 25.
Do you still encourage where you think there is no hope, or do you think a reality check is in order?
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Make that 35
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Ah okay, so it wasn't you who told him to get a better fiddle, it was someone else. Now he's complaining to you and you're angry about it and you're going to write back and tell him he's right for being angry. Is that right?
I wouldn't pass judgement otherwise chins will wag, people will start taking sides, and it'll get out of hand and nobody will want to play with anyone else. Also you're going on 2nd hand evidence. You don't know exactly how the original statement was worded. What if the person was overly sensitive and just took it the wrong way? What if, for example, this person said something like "yeah, don't you just love buying new instruments, but I'll tell you what, last time I did it I figured it wasn't worth the money I spent on it, 'cause I thought it would make me a better player and it didn't". Person listening thinks: "this is a veiled comment about my playing".
I don't think it's necessarily true that getting a better instrument doesn't make you a better player. Better quality instruments are generally easier to play because they're better-made, the moving parts move more slowly, someone somewhere has taken the time to set it up precisely etc. Not only that, but it can be very motivating to have a good instrument. If you're making better sounds out of it just because it's better quality, it can encourage you to push yourself and see just what it's possible to achieve with it.
So, if this person has the money to buy a good instrument and they *want* it, tell them to go ahead and get it. They can't do themselves any harm by doing so, so it can only be a positive thing.
As for the "calibre" argument, well just tell them to ignore it (and get used to it).
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
"move more smoothly" I meant.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
opps.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by BegF
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
poos!
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Don't poo me Dow-man
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by BegF
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Ok, ok ... boys... stop it now... are we going to have to separate you two?
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I may be naive but, the point of my question to this group, and the point I took from the message this guy posted to our group goes back to the subject line, should a player ever be discouraged outright?
Apart from the professionals here that actually earn a living playing, why are the rest of us playing this music anyway?
Here is my reply to him in our slow session group:
"I understand and agree strongly with your point. We always need to encourage each other, it should be part of the tradition.
To me personally, the purpose of learning and sharing this music has so much more to do with inward, personal, growth than with refining ability. Although the two can be tightly entwined, as the abilities increase so do the personal rewards.
Please don't let ill-advised comments have a negative impact on your will to play. Indeed the "caliber" of a player is subjective on so many levels. One may aspire to become another Tommy Peoples, or perhaps a solid session musician contributing to the group or just for the joy of learning and playing these tunes. The level one achieves and the quality of the instrument they play is their business. It is not subject to the evaluation or "approval" of another.
As for learning late in life, I recently met a wonderful fiddler from New York. This old fellow knows hundreds and hundreds of tunes and can play along with the best session musicians. Although he played a little as a child, he got rid of his fiddle as a young man and didn't touch one for over 30 years. Now his playing is a joy to hear.
Bottom line, take critisim that is not constructive with a grain of salt and enjoy playing."
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by RogueFiddler
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
So you told him to "ignore it (and get used to it)"
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
:D Pretty much
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by RogueFiddler
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
"Should a player ever be discouraged outright?"
Do you mean that adjectivally or in a passive sense?
Adjectival: you can't control other people's emotions - if they feel discouraged then all you can do is give them a peptalk.
Passive: of course not, unless a) their playing is going to cause them long term physical damage, or b) the instrument is an anglo concertina.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Again, we're a bit confused here, but the situation there are three (not two) people involved here: 1.the person who wants the new fiddle, 2.the person who told the first person not to get the new fiddle and 3.your good self, wondering what to reply to nr.1.
There are two related issues here (I'm on a numbering things kick today)
1. Was person 2 out of line in what s/he said to person 1. and should you respond?
I agree with Dow that this ain't necessarily so. Perhaps person 2. is an experienced teacher or player and person 1 asked him/her for advice like so: "I've seen this fiddle which I really like. Do you think I'm playing badly because the old yoke I've got is holding me back and do I *need* to buy this to improve me playing? If 2. then gives their honest opinion and 1. throws a hissy fit because it wasn't what they wanted to hear then you can't really blame 2.
Then on the other hand, if 2. comes in and writes they're so happy about this fiddle they are going to buy and two says, completely unasked for, "why bother, you're crap anyway" that's a different thing altogether. If I were you I would only get involved if you thought 2 was being mean and you want to send some fuzzy vibes to 1. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't want to get involved.
2. Second issue. Should people be encouraged at all time?
Here I am going to strongly disagree with what Brother Steve says. Why on earth would you want to stop someone from playing the fiddle if they show such admirable determination in wanting to do so? Sure, maybe you have different standards for want you want to achieve with your music, but if she wants to play fiddle it really is no good to ask her to play the box or whistle. Boxes or whistles aren't fiddles. I suggest you let her and yes, encourage her.
(If her out of tune playing is not sitting nicely in your tasteful session, that might be a problem, but that is a separate issue to whether of not she ought to be encouraged in learning to play a certain instrument)
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by SL*
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Fiddlemethis: That last post crossed mine, but I think we're on the same wavelength here.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by SL*
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
It's possible the person who advised against buying a new fiddle was malicious and intentionally discouraging, but more probable that he / she was either a) jealous or b) trying to be helpful drawing on personal experience. Maybe the cruel dude you're talking about bought a nice fiddle once and then gave up, and now the thing stares him in the face, shaming him day after day, and he's trying to help your friend avoid that same hell.
A nice instrument does make you a better player. I learned that when I traded my Yamaha in for a Martin.
I was 23 before I touched a fiddle. I'm 29 now and it's going pretty well. I don't feel seriously disadvantaged compared to the wiz kids who picked it up at six. I'm getting kicks they never would have had, I think, from the perspective on struggle and accomplishment my extra years have given me.
Anyway, your friend shouldn't waste time being incensed and discouraged. As Steve says, you need a thick skin. Just write it off as an ill-thought out but probably well-intentioned remark and move on. Even if it wasn't well intentioned, the only other option is "petty", as far as I can see.
But complaining about it to all your friends is equally petty.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
That's true FiddleMeThis; it does have more to do with "inward, personal, growth than with refining ability." That's why Dow chose the English system concertina over the Anglo (that is far better suited for ITM.) He wasn't interested in getting the music right, but rather, he wanted to finally grow-up. I suppose I should really cease discouraging him about his Brit-box choice, I encourage anyone’s efforts to evolve in a positive way.
hahahaha
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Oh, yeah, to respond to the statement "ALWAYS encourage, NEVER discourage." That sounds like horse pucky to me. I would never discourage anyone from a general interest in ITM, but I will strongly discourage people from bashing out terrible guitar chords in my ear, or slapping on a bodhran as if it were the bottom of a naughty child. I'd also discourage someone from stealing my beer or kicking my chair in time to the music. I don't think this makes me malicious. I've taken my share of both encouragement and constructive criticism, and I find the constructive criticism a lot more useful than candy-coated enthusiasm.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
What about "noodling", Kerri?
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
By the way, in the debate last night, Kerry pledged to never noodle to the American people.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Awhile back, someone who wanted to learn the fiddle asked me to take a look at an instrument for her. I played it and it was obviously well made, but it had that new tone. I said it was pretty good and asked how much it was going for, if she didn't me asking.
I can't remember, but I think she said $5000. I think I may have said something like "Well I am not sure I would pay that much for it. And you may not need to spend that much for a starter instrument." This person had never played a note before, but obviously had the cash flow.
Sometimes peoples opinions are based on the money spent. And perhaps that is jealousy. Or is there something else to it?
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Jode
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I don't think there is an upper age limit for learning the fiddle, within reason. Perhaps if you've got arthritis or some other ailment, there could be a problem. Of course, you'll never be a first class musician but, if that's what you have to be, why are the majority of us playing in the first place? I didn't touch a fiddle(though I played guitar and mandolin a bit) until my thirties and didn't start serious practice until my forties. I'm not great but I enjoy my music and am continually improving. That's all I really ask. I purchased a much better (though not excessively expensive) fiddle a few years ago and a really good bow. It's a much nicer sound and has encouraged me to play all the more and get even better.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
In abstract, SL*, I quite agree with your disagreement with me. But this was a specific case.
I didn't discourage the player in question, actually, quite the reverse, as I'm sure she would concur. It's just that I sensed the potential for enormous frustration. I judged, correctly as time was to prove, that the would-be fiddler presented so many serious obstacles (huge tension in the upper body, a very poor ear that I had precious little success in training, and the like) that she would never achieve the level that she so desperately wanted to reach, which was to sit in, play along with and be accepted by the "big boys" at high-level sessions.
(OK I lied, it was a he. I wanted to disguise it in case he ever came across this site and this thread. It was a macho thing, the determination, the "big boys" and all that.) I just felt that on a box or a mandolin, at least the defective ear would not cause other musicians the pain that it does on the fiddle, and also that the player's frustration quotient would be lower. I didn't press the issue when he told me not to bother trying to persuade him to take up something else.
He is still at it, with the same dogged determination. Having fun? Yes, no doubt, but deep down bitterly disappointed I feel. After a few years he stopped asking me "How long do you think it will be before I can sit in with the big boys at the sessions?" I always gave politician's answers, to try not to discourage.
Kerry - taking up the fiddle as an adult is very different for those who already play an instrument than it is for those who have never played anything.
FiddleMeThis - learning the fiddle as inner growth is all very well as an idea. Except that I think most people actually approach it with the idea of learning to play well.
Cheers
Steve
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
You might never be able to sit in with the "big boys" but still be a reasonably good player. Being able to fit in a session isn't all about musical expertise or technical wizardy, in any case. It's about knowing or being prepared to learn the session repertoire and the particular style of the session. You can manage that with just half a dozen tunes, if you hit the right session and, sometimes you might not "fit in" even if you've been playing for years and know thousands of tunes.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Jack said: "That's why Dow chose the English system concertina over the Anglo (that is far better suited for ITM.) He wasn't interested in getting the music right, but rather, he wanted to finally grow-up".
You finally get what I'm about
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
A fine discussion this is! I would like to add 2 cents, or maybe even 3.
"Always encourage, never discourage". Criticism can be delivered with encouragement. If done correctly, criticism is a gift. To paraphrase several verses from the Book of Proverbs, a wise man listens to criticism and profits from it. During my first lesson with him, one of my early guitar teachers told me that I was his best student and the only one at that time with any potential. In his next breath he said that he wouldn't be wasting any more of our time with compliments, and proceeded to point out several ways that my playing needed to improve. I received great benefit from his encouraging criticism.
I hope to address a couple other points brought out in this string, but work calls...will try to get back here later.
Best wishes! Keep on playing! Never give up!!
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceciltguitar
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Steve: To me motivation to play and approach to playing are two different things. While what motivates me is the inner satisfaction I get, my approach is to play the best I can and constantly improve. Of course, the better I play, the more satisfaction I get out of playing. One feeds the other.
I agree that being honest with someone about their playing is the right way to go, if they want to play in the "big boy" sessions and their natural abilities are never going to live up to their aspirations, be honest with them. Get them to re-evaluate their goals.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by RogueFiddler
Always Encourage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DAMN! - I've skipped to the bottom and haven't yet read the other comments, because I'm so damned mad about this. AAAAAAAAA!!! A good instrument calls you out to it. I have seen so many musicians give up because the instrument they had just didn't inspire them or challenge them to work with it. A good instrument, whatever the type, just sounds good on simple things, as well as promising more as you develop your understanding of it. There are a lot of bad teachers out there, not just music, and I have come across people who had a passion for something, whether it is gardening, maths, or music, and some asshole, though let us say instead 'ignorant', quashed the hopes and spark of another. Is it that they want to feed off of others by putting out another's flame so their can seem to burn brighter? What's with such people? Why? I have constantly found people who came to something 'late', music, dance, whatever, and in their own way they accomplished something to be proud of. Every little step counts. I just finished teaching my wife to ride a bicycle - and every little accomplishment was such a high for us both. If I had focused in on what she couldn't do, at the time, she would have given up, she would have cried too and never considered a bicycle again.
Always encourage, never discourage, and if you are going to critique something, make it constructive and do it with love, and only do it when you have a mutual understanding and respect - and it has to be 'constructive'. Mind you, I'm not feeling very constructive about what has been done to you. I'm so angry I'm shaking. I've seen it before. I've seen it with my dear neice who was told she might as well give up dance because she was 'large'. She's not 'fat', she is large because she does a lot of sports and the muscles were thought to be unsightly and not delicate enough for this particular dance teacher. So, you've got me steaming and upset. Don't let them win, don't take it, don't stick with the jerk who did this to you - there are mostly good folk out there and on this site and you don't need to put up with those that would put down your inspiration and your passion...GRRRRRRRRR!!!
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I'd rather listen to the sound of 100 banjos, each playing different tunes concurrently, than one anglo concertina. See? That's how much I have to dislike anglos in order to maintain my position as chairperson of the Low-Caste Frowned-Upon Brotherhood.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
So, John, you think that it comes down to being a social thing? The "musical conversation" metaphor comes up again and again; listen, be well-informed (know your tunes), and listen some more. Rules of polite discourse.
On new instruments: It is unfortunate that 'beginner' instruments are so darned hard to play. The difference between a student fiddle or whatever and what you end up buying when the budget permits is so great; it's always a wonder to me that anyone gets past those first few years. I guess it's a pearls before swine situation in the beginning, but why deny yourself the pleasure of a new instrument?
Kerri--yes, I will always go with the constructive suggestion over all the huggy, 'it's all good' fairy dust. If you're going to do something, do it right. My dear husband says that trad music should either make you weep or make you dance; I prefer to make people weep for the right reasons.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Michele Sims
Well, my hands have stopped shaking, maybe it's the DTs, anyway, I've read the replies, some nice comment, and I'm pretty much with Dow, as what would stirring the waters do? You can just be a good mate and support the dreams of your friend, and ignore the BS from the other end. It isn't worthy of comment or bother, though I seem to have taken up the flame here, sorry.
About encouraging, a short story, we had this bloke in Dublin who had just a couple of steps, and whatever music you were playing he danced the same steps, and they weren't good, and they were out of time, and it was embarrassing for some. However, it was all he had, and he loved it, and he took great joy in it. So, we used to call him out for a step, actually, usually twice in an evening of ceiling. It was a monthly ceili he always attended. We'd say, "Paddy, dance us a reel", and he'd do his few steps over and over again, maybe 5 minutes worth, a break while the rest of us passed out the tea and biscuits. And then later we'd say, "Hey Paddy, would you dance us a slip jig?" - and of course he would, and that would be the one chance we had to play a slip jig in the evening, and it would be another break. We never discouraged him, even though he wasn't much of a dancer really. He got great pleasure from it, and we weren't going to take that from him.
There was also a regular session in the countryside, Tipperary, where there was this old guy who couldn't play the fiddle, but did, and they always made time for him to do his party piece, however dire it was, they loved the old guy and took pleasure in his pleasure. He was never discouraged, but he also was considerate and didn't play except his one party piece. He would sometimes just put the fiddle and bow up and pretend to play, or so it seemed, without enough rosin to cause anyone any real pain...
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
For inexperienced players it is more important to have a good instrument. A good instrument is easier to play and make sound good. Experienced players can make junk sound good.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Martinfamilyband
DITTO! - and said in less words than my harangue.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Whoa, ceolachan, you said it much better while I was ruminating on this one. Your niece's dance teacher is an ogre. I had one as a child, and will never forget how she favored the willowy types over the rest of us. Irony: those willowy types are no longer willowy; I can still dance.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Michele Sims
Now I'm laughing, nice one Batlady...
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
In any business or other enterprise a good manager will always try to encourage and praise those under him, rather than the opposite, which has a negative effect on productivity. Of course, that is not to say that criticism shouldn't be made when appropriate, but even then the criticism should contain as many constructive elements as possible.
Trevor
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Plese don't be discouraged. I have just started lessons in September at the age of 54.
I'm loving it and lesson day is the highlight of my week. I've been playing for a long time but not very well. Getting rid of the bad habits I've developed over the years is the hardest part. Put the rude comments aside and just get on with your playing. Buy a Strad if you want one! Do your best and enjoy yourself.
Mary
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Antikhntr
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I have known several fine musicians who started as adults, even over the age of 30 or 40. I once had a guitar student who picked up her first musical instrument at the age of 62 and quickly developed into a fine backup player for the singers that she wanted to accompany. Use the advantages of learning that come from the adult perspective, and let the experience help you keep the flame of youth alive in you. My Grandmother has all the wisdom of her 90 years, and still has the exuberance and fire of a 16 year old.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceciltguitar
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Buy whatever instrument you want to buy!
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceciltguitar
Slight retraction - - -
I must admit my sins, but I only feel this way about folks who's self-worth is so large that no amount of discouragement seems to work. But I have lapsed and in such cases I have sometimes, after trying everything else, stooped to being discouraging, such as - "Maybe this isn't the right event for you?", or "Do you know how to play 'Far, far away'?" But, hey, what use, the folks who aggravate that out of me seem to be untouchable anyway.
But, I've never discouraged a 'beginner' who has that 'beginners mind', something my wife and I try to keep awake in ourseves. We both share the same lack of patience with large egos, but we also try to temper ourselves, though she does it better than I do, and I do better when she's kicking me under the table or poking me in the side, or squeezing the blood out of my hand.
One of my favoured dance partners of 'old', was a lady in her 70s, who was a 'beginner' and who's joy was contagious..
So, 'Anitkhntr', did I spell that right? - anyway, what are you taking lessons in? Good luck...
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
There are also people who's self worth is so low that they cannot receive constructive criticism.
I am probably wrong, but perhaps the offender used a poor choice of words to tell the offendee that they shouldn't over-spend on a new fiddle.
You don't have to pay that much for a well setup, functional fiddle that has a good sound. But you can pay 2 or 4 times as much for the same kind of fiddle that has some reputable name on it. (And some dealers are willing to let you spend as much as you like!)
In the example that I used above, I told the buyer that she probably did not have to spend that much. Why, because I spent less on my fiddle and it is a nicer instrument.
So, is that discouraging?
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Jode
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Nothing gives us the right as musicians to discourage another, regardless of age, experience, and skill. Music is a thing that brings us together for the love of it, and we are a community. We should think of ourselves as always seeking to gain knowlege of the music for ourselves but for the goal of passing on that bknowledge as well. Talking down to another musician is just sickening and wrong. That is unless they are up in a cloud of their own and think that they're netter than everyone else, in which case you talk them down enough to get them back level with the rest of us. There, that's my ramble.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by CaliforniaPiper
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
better than everyone else, that's what i meant.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by CaliforniaPiper
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Ceolachan,
I'm taking fiddle lessons. My instructor teaches a vaiety of different styles blues, classical, jazz, Celtic etc. He's allowing me to bring the music I'd like to work from, which of course a large majority comes from The Session. In addition he gives me bowing exercices, scales, note sequences and all the usual stuff. It's hard work but I love it. I think I'm addicted to practicing.
Mary
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Antikhntr
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
What is all this hocus pocus about beginner instruments anyway? Is your musical genius supposed to outgrow your instrument like a schoolboy does shoes? Are you supposed to "earn" the right to decent tools by learning how to use them properly? Any jackass can stroll into Revy and buy a tablesaw regardless of whether or not he can nail two sticks together. If I had a few thousand spare bucks I'd be upgrading my state-of-the-art recording studio even though I've never recorded anything that couldn't be accomplished with a garage sale tape deck. Why work if not for the freedom of frivolous spending?
Rant rant rant. I'm trying to say, who cares if it's a waste of money, but it's out of context because a decent instrument is NEVER a waste of money. I love my instruments. When I pick up instruments of lower quality it puts me off playing altogether. Especially fiddles. It's howling away right nest to your ear. If the tone isn't pleasing, you won't want to play.
Here's a bit of helpful advice though - if your friend is a beginner he / she ought to bring an experienced player shopping to point out the merits or defaults your friend might not notice.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
next to your ear, that is.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Shake, Rattle and Wolf-tones - - -
Yes Kerri - always have an experienced other on hand if you lack that experience yourself. As someone said earlier, a good player can make cardboard sound passable. And, no, quality isn't always confirmed by a high price, but it does usually cost something more than those Chinese matchboxes. I hate revealing this, but I did quit because of it, but I used to work in a music shop in the South of England where they brought in a load of these 15 quid fiddles and did a few minor tweaks on them and sold them for 100. They were time bombs, doomed to eventually self-destruct, and they weren't even good for hampster homes. So, as we often say, buyer beware - and be informed, or have a friend along who is. There have been some great disappointments caused from bad instruments, including the worst - people giving up.
About my admitting occassionally failing and resorting to discouragement, I should have stressed - it happens when I'm faced with someone akin to as suggested here, who by their very large presence and shadow casting - discourages others, discourages community, discourages sharing, discourages beginners - then I weaken and I want to kick them in the - - - ...to discourage them back...
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Exactly, c. The way I see it, a two hundred dollar instrument that is good for nothing but ornamenting the wall of a pub is a much bigger waste of money than a three thousand dollar instrument that begs to be played. Buying a crappy axe because it's a deal is like buying size 4 shoes because they're half price when your feet are size 9.
Also, I think the phrase "good beginner instrument" is right up there with "military intelligence" as far as self-annihilating word couplings are concerned.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Ooh, and another thing! If you buy a decent instrument it will hold its value or the value will increase. A crap instrument loses most of its value the minute you walk out the door of the shop. If you decide to get rid of it you'll be lucky if you can cover it in foam rubber and pass it off as a ping pong raquet at a garage sale.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Oh my aching feet - - -
Sore point Kerri. I've fat feet and my folks used to just fit anything on them, working from a tight budget, so whenever I could I went barefoot, still prefer that to badly fitting shoes. I once had custom fitted shoes, built around my weird pads, and what heaven. I can say the same for a well made instrument built around the art of making music... They sing on their own, just begging you to grab ahold and sound them out...
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceolachan
And - if you've bought wisely and you suddenly find the 'fiddle' isn't the instrument for you in the long run, as Kerri put it - you've made a wise investment, can sell it without a loss and use the profits for your next venture - guitar, flute, whatever...
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
With the person that wanted to spend $5000 for her first fiddle, I ended up walking away thinking "Well, if she has a bunch of money, I guess she can spend whatever she wants to on an instrument. She may not get anything better than the next person, but she'll be happy."
So there you go.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Jode
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
$5000 fiddle? With that kind of money, she could get into the concertina.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Well, everyone else and their dog has had their tuppenceworth on this thread, not that I've read even half of it, so I thought I'd come in and repeat what is obvious.
Sh!tebag person who made the "calibre" remark had absolutely no right to. Nor to make any judgement on how you spend your money. Nor should you give a monkey's about the artistic opinions of someone so short of basic manners.
We had a whistle player turn up tonight whom no-one had ever seen before. He joined in where he could, started off some tunes...which were often one reel... played 6x over. But that was fine!...sort of...who would want to discourage the guy, he was only doing what he knew. None of us discouraged him. In fact, I'd say by allowing him space at a good quality session, which is laid back, but not a clinical cathedral job like Jack's, we did this guy a favour. And there was enough strength in depth in the session to absorb yer man.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Wow there are a lot of words here...
Let's see, my most discouraging comment to a hack guitar player at a session: "either get the chords right or the rhythm right, but you've got to get one of the two to play with us."
I guess I was encouraging him to get something right... yeah that's it, I encouraged him.... yeah.
I think we're all in rat's alley, where the dead men lost their bones.
--Eliot
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Yikes, Rab! "not a clinical cathedral job like Jack's"! Them's fightin' words!
I almost feel like sticking up for poor Jack, but I've never been to his session. I have this vision in my head that it would be more like putting on a great CD and drinking a pint while enjoying it than it would be like the bedlam I partake in (I've listened to the MP3s!) Anyway, I can't stick up for Jack, because we're mortal enemies (at least as far as noodling is concerned.)
So I'll just reiterate my position that the insulted aspiring fidder in question should blow as much cash as he possibly can on his instrument, just to spite the twit who doesn't think he "earned" it. Even if he never improves, it will be a legacy to his embarassed children. A beautiful family heirloom. You just can't pull that off with a ten dollar ukelele. Or a shaky egg. Or two rocks that you bash together. (Although maybe if you had a particularly beautiful autumn leaf skeleton that you gently blew across to honour the gods you'd be getting back into heirloom territory.)
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Wow, all I do is advocate that people don't try to play tunes they don't know and I get elevated to bishop.
Father Jack has a nice ring to it actually... or should it be reverend... or monsieur maybe)
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Hey, mifter!
:p
-Padraig
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Heh. Never heard anyone advising Fred Q. Ordinarybloke not to waste his time buying a Lamborghini on the basis that he's not Jack Brabham calibre.
Given that we's talking about grownups here, not kiddiewinkies, why should the attitude be different with an instrument, that's wot I reckon.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Tish
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Ahem, to clarify - kiddiewinkies generally must a) fit in with Mummy and Daddy's budget and b) prove they can care for a basic instrument before they get their first Strad. Didn't meant to imply that I think it's OK to give children bad instruments.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Tish
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Eliot,
Many, many, years ago, a piano accordian player (of all people) flared up at me during a session and shouted "If yer gonnae(He was Scottish, by the way)f---ing strum, then use a softer pick!" I was a little upset at the time but I did realise that there was a bit more to accompanying tunes than merely strumming the chords and it required a bit more subtlety that I thought. I also concentrated even more on melody instruments from then and although my backup technique has improved greatly, the guitar still features less prominently in my session activities.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Just to stick up for older learners - I recognise comments from many kindred spirits on these pages who get bitten by the bug and are playing obsessively like they never would when younger. Kids can rapidly go through their grades on violin on about 10 minutes reluctant practice each day, then leave the thing lying neglected when their hormones kick in. Are there any other "older people" out there who have changed places with their offspring and are making good use of a pretty good instrument that they might have struggled to pay for in installments? The offspring meanwhile are deafening themselves with dad's old strat.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by RichardB
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Dig taken in good spirit, Jack :~}
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Rudall the time
Slagging Encouragement!
There are times, when you know each other well enough and there's a certain respect built up, that 'slagging' can be a way of 'encourging'. It's what's behind the shovelling and the way you shovel it. Though, some Freudeans would say something about that I'm sure, and that a session is a quagmire of unbalanced egos full of pent up aggression... "Meow!"
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Hmmm, The problem with this thread is that it's back to front.
I could say to someone, "That was a lovely tune you played there", and they either think, "That's great, my playing is so natural that it allowed the tune to be itself without getting distracted by technique,"
OR
"bastard, he thought I was so shite that he was too embaressed to mention my playing so just said the tune was nice instead."
The point being, encouragement or discouragement is largely in the beholder. So whether you make a point of deliberatly discouraging or encouraging, it will be largely lost on the recipient due to either arrogance or rampant paranoia.
Case study No2:
A kid sat down behind me the other day with an unfeasably large button accordion. He played a set of tunes at about the volume of thirty fiddles (the rest of the company was four fiddles and a flute). I politely asked him if he could turn some of his reeds of, you know, like, "I love the sound of the oboe reed on it's own" kind of thing. And he packed up and went home in a huff. What can you do?
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by ...
- the discouraging way... He was a 'kid', the future of ITM, you evil old man...
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by ceolachan
- I meant - evil old cynic...
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by ceolachan
- and seldom is heard a discouraging word -
and the skies are not cloudy all day...
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I would never discourage anyone from playing. I would discourage some from playing in my presence though.
re, Michal's bIg Accordion kid, I would say "Jeez that's f@€kin loud! Let me just play this one without any accordion cos I can't hear myself otherwise"
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Bren
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Bren, I'll do that favour for you next week. I've been *supposedly* busy of late trying to study for an exam. Unfortunately, there's been one or two distractions and, if not, I seem to create them.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I agree with Michael that encouragement is mostly in the beholder. I’d like to add that I think the level at which a comment can be misconstrued is related to how well the receiver knows the person making the comment. It seems that people read in to a comment far more when it’s coming from someone they don’t know. I think that’s because when we deal with strangers, we’re really in that ‘feeling-out’ mode of communication, and that’s compounded in this case because music is such an internal, personal kind of communication. So, you’re never going to fully know what the offended person really heard from this apparently discouraging other. I would say, stay out of the fire because you don’t have all the facts.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by c_ya
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Right on Mike! That is pretty well exactly the conclusion I came to thinking about all this last night. But the world in general, and web discussion forums in particular, would be awful quiet if everyone refrained from commenting on an exchange they weren't party to, or at least present at. Wouldn't it?
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Defintely BSteve...I totally agree. This is the perfect forum for someone to here out the opinions of others who are close to those kinds of situations.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by c_ya
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Heya mike. How was the session in Hamilton, by the way? Was is as anal retentive as you thought it might be from reading these threads?
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I actually missed it Kerri because I was returning from a long Thanksgiving weekend with family! So this Tuesday the 19th I'm finally going. Can't wait
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by c_ya
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I'll be sure to let everyone know how it goes. I'm thinking of blogging the experience.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by c_ya
Some ways I have been encouraged:
"Can't you play that tube of glue in tune?"
"Pushing the envelope, aren't we now, Eliot?"
"He just plays that fast because he's a freekin' flute player."
Slagging is part of the experience. It's love. If you mistake slagging for an insult, you're in the wrong musical tradition.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Eliot's right.
general slagging at a session is a form of bonding, though it's not entirely frivolous, and is partly a way of us saying what we think of others in a codified way that renders criticism acceptable and actually pulls the players together. One of the side-benefits of it is to give us all thick hides that protect us when someone is genuinely nasty to us.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
oh, I don't know...I agree there's a time & place, and you need to know the slaggers/slaggées pretty well. I'm used to taking it, but from certain people eg, Aidan, Billy & Cath. But I've known the occasional person whom I've felt meant what they said with a degree of malice or superciliousness (if that's the correct noun)...and they aren't pleasant persons to be around.
An anecdote-ette to show how nice and a warm wonderful human being am I. Whilst waiting at the bar for drinks last night, I was accosted by our fan....a kind of pissed up, not a high IQ scorer, fat geezerish geezer, but pleasant enough, when he isn't mouthing off such excreta as the following...
"I'll be bringing my BODraan along soon, ya know" says he.
"Aye, good man yersell. We'll aw' luk forward tae hearin' ye" replies Rab.
"Yeah, I got it in for repair, mate. I'm savin' up for the repair bill, an' it's gonna cos' me 600 quid, mate."
"Jeez, that sounds lit some Bowrawnn, pal!" ejaculates Rab, in fake amazement...
Yeah right. We've had the Brass Fiddle, looks like we've now got a solid gold bodhrán. From a diamond geezah.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
I think I wouldn't take it all that well if someone ejaculated at me, even if it was just a harmless bit of fun.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
In fact, I think I'd discourage that kind of behavior outright.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Kerri - I had to wait a few minutes to stop laughing before trying to muster some reply. The diction :~} I used was in the spirit of one of my favourite lines from reading some Sherlock Holmes story way back. Can't remember the story, just the sense of the paragraph, which I'll paraphrase:
"...Mrs Watson ran down the stairs, closely followed by Dr. Watson, ejaculating..."
Such Naíveté, had those Victorians. Sherlock of course was an opium junkie...and even worse, a fiddle player!
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Oh.? I thought he was into the pipes (nyack nyack nyack).
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Poor Mrs.Watson. Her dry-cleaning bills must have been burdensome...
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Michele Sims
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
He'd tried to tell her "This is a terribly inconvenient time to answer the door, darling..." but she just wouldn't listen.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
yeah, yeah. This one must truly be up among the favourites for the vote for the coveted title: "The Session.org Thread that Fizzled Out with the Biggest Amount of Bollox on the End (subsection 23.1: category for sexual innuendos...with a special prize of Gold Ring)
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Oh, I don't know about that...this is about par for the course. You people need to get your minds out of the gutter. Now that isn't one of Those Gold Rings, is it?
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Michele Sims
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Don't bother starting a good thread, this thread is about as good as you could ever come up with. Your callibre of discourse does not deserve a thread any better than this one. So be satisfied with the thread you're participating in, and don't go dreaming of more valuable ones that are beyond your ability.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Eliot
Oh...
Oh... and don't noodle in threads if you don't know anything about them.
Yeah yeah... bored on a Friday night.
Session tomorrow at Andy's, yer all invited.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Waiter... there's a thread in my noodles.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Dam* you guys are good...
Jim, Jack, congratulations, you both get the "Noodle" award for best rearrangement of words in a nonsense sentence.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
wow. top marks for cleverness, jim.
# Posted on October 16th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
hi , just checking in and I see this place is still rockin'
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by vboyd100
Wanting a bit of seasoning - - -
We were so poor we used to take turns unravelling bits of clothing to make thread soup. It always got more flavourful the closer to the skin we got, and colder...
# Posted on October 17th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
Thread Soup?
Luxury!
# Posted on October 18th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Always Encourage! Never Discourage!
if i cooked your potato coddle would i feel loved and encouraged?
jim, it sounds deliciousand i am going to make it but -just checking - that's 22 hours of simmering u want?
# Posted on October 19th 2004 by vboyd100