Are there any fiddle players among us who started out on the cello? If so, how difficult did you find the transition - shrinking your instrument to 1/10th its size, playing it upside down, and doubling your playing speed? I'm about to attempt just such a transition and would love to hear about anyone else's experiences and advice.
I'm an experienced orchestral cellist, since my far-off school days. Nearly four years ago, I got attracted to Irish trad music due to my wife's interest in set dancing, and took up the fiddle, specifically in order to play Irish music.
If you've reached a reasonable standard on the cello you will alrady have the basic left-hand and bow control. I found that going from cello bowing to fiddle bowing was no problem - the hold is virtually identical, the main difference being that, whereas I tend to hold the cello bow with the hair fairly flat on the strings (some other cellists don't do this), I have the fiddle bow stick angled away from me so that the edge of the hairs contacts the strings. I'm not really aware of the weight difference between a cello bow and a fiddle bow when played on their respective instruments, except that a fiddle bow is that much easier to play fast.
Regarding left-hand technique, the fingering of scales is different - a major scale on an open cello string will be 0(open string)-1-3-4, and on the fiddle it will be 0-1-2-3, leaving the 4th finger available for higher notes. Because of the larger size of the cello, a cellist will use left-hand position shifts a little more than a fiddle player would. I didn't find the different fingering on the fiddle a problem because occasionally, like some other cellists, I use violin fingering on the cello, mainly to avoid unnecessary position shifts.
The main difference in fingering, for me, arises from the fact that the ends of my l-h fingers are fairly broad from all the years of playing the cello (guitarists and banjoists will know what I'm talking about), so I've had to learn the trick of, say, shifting the the 2nd finger on a C# quickly out of the way if I'm going to play the D with the 3rd finger, otherwise the D will too sharp. The key to this is a relaxed left hand. Classical violinists have to learn to do this anyway when they go up to the higher positions.
I didn't work on vibrato, but it arrived anyway, naturally and controllably, after a couple of months, as my left hand loosened up, so it's there if I need it.
I haven't had any formal lessons in violin technique, and haven't seen them as necessary because I've unconsciously absorbed all I need from being surrounded by a couple of dozen violinists in orchestras over the years. I suppose that an advantage of this is that I didn't have a (classical) teacher to tell me to hold the instrument in the approved manner and to do such-and-such in a particular way - "because it's always been done like that". (BTW, Many years ago, my cello teacher encouraged me to think out problems for myself, and only to go to him if I was really stuck.) So the shoulder-rest went in the bin after a few weeks (one thing that now won't fall off or get loose!), and my chin-rest is now a minimalist affair - a 1" (2.5cm) piece of ebony next to the end of the tailpiece, and acting not so much as a rest but as an anchor for the chin, and I am much more aware of the vibrations of the fiddle. I think my hold is consequently closer to a baroque style than modern classical, and feels a lot more mobile and relaxed than the fairly fixed position of the modern orchestral player.
However, I've had specific lessons in things like ornaments and varous features of style.
The big problem for me, because I've been a sight-reading classical orchestral player all my life, and probably exacerbated by a slower learning speed in middle-age, was learning tunes by ear. I think it's now largely there, but it was difficult for the first year or so. The answer is to go to as many sessions and tune-learning workshops as possible.
I think an important advantage of going from the cello to the fiddle is that I didn't have any classical violin baggage to unlearn. I just had the basic neuro-muscular control in the left-hand and bowing already set up, and knowing how to listen, and no classical violin style or habits to overcome.
Thanks for your post. Your comments confirmed generally what I hoped to be the case. It's nice to hear it from someone who's actually done it, though! I agree that the bowing will be fairly easy to transfer. I've been playing a borrowed fiddle for two weeks or so. I also play tenor banjo, so I already know loads of tunes. However on the banjo, I use cello fingering, so I've had to change on the fidde to fiddle fingering. As you mentioned, getting my stubby middle finger out of the way in order to play with the third finger is a bit of a challenge. I'm sure it will work out fine over time. I've arranged to start lessons, but with an ITM fiddle player, not classical. Hope to report great results in the coming months!
I think the bottom line is, if you've already reached a level of proficiency on a first melody instrument the basic skills you've acquired ease the transition to a different instrument.
I've taken a cello to sessions only twice, but those were workshop sessions and I was asked specifically to play a base line from a score for something or other (Sheebeg and Sheemore was one, I remember).
I'd never take a cello to a pub session 'cos the cello, of all instruments, is most easily damaged, and a lot of playing space is needed. It would be best in a pub if all the musos were on a stage or some other area to which the punters do NOT have access. Regarding the session music, I don't see much point in duplicating the tune an octave or more below; for one thing, there could be harmonic conflict with a backing guitar or whatever; for another, the cello isn't quite as agile as the fiddle or flute, due to the inertia of the heavier strings and bow, so that would be an intrinsic limiting factor. I think the cello would work best as part of a performing band, with its own integral part. Slow airs, prepared properly, should come off quite well on the cello in performance.
If you've learnt ITM ornaments on the fiddle there's no essential problem in playing them on the cello, except that you've got to work that little bit harder in order to overcome the inertia of the heavy strings I mentioned above.
How about octave fiddle? That might be quite good if you are used to playing down low - you'd have an instrument which is basically tuned a fifth above the standard cello tuning. There wouldn't be any problem with room then!
from cello to fiddle
from cello to fiddle
Are there any fiddle players among us who started out on the cello? If so, how difficult did you find the transition - shrinking your instrument to 1/10th its size, playing it upside down, and doubling your playing speed? I'm about to attempt just such a transition and would love to hear about anyone else's experiences and advice.
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by nert
Re: from cello to fiddle
I'm an experienced orchestral cellist, since my far-off school days. Nearly four years ago, I got attracted to Irish trad music due to my wife's interest in set dancing, and took up the fiddle, specifically in order to play Irish music.
If you've reached a reasonable standard on the cello you will alrady have the basic left-hand and bow control. I found that going from cello bowing to fiddle bowing was no problem - the hold is virtually identical, the main difference being that, whereas I tend to hold the cello bow with the hair fairly flat on the strings (some other cellists don't do this), I have the fiddle bow stick angled away from me so that the edge of the hairs contacts the strings. I'm not really aware of the weight difference between a cello bow and a fiddle bow when played on their respective instruments, except that a fiddle bow is that much easier to play fast.
Regarding left-hand technique, the fingering of scales is different - a major scale on an open cello string will be 0(open string)-1-3-4, and on the fiddle it will be 0-1-2-3, leaving the 4th finger available for higher notes. Because of the larger size of the cello, a cellist will use left-hand position shifts a little more than a fiddle player would. I didn't find the different fingering on the fiddle a problem because occasionally, like some other cellists, I use violin fingering on the cello, mainly to avoid unnecessary position shifts.
The main difference in fingering, for me, arises from the fact that the ends of my l-h fingers are fairly broad from all the years of playing the cello (guitarists and banjoists will know what I'm talking about), so I've had to learn the trick of, say, shifting the the 2nd finger on a C# quickly out of the way if I'm going to play the D with the 3rd finger, otherwise the D will too sharp. The key to this is a relaxed left hand. Classical violinists have to learn to do this anyway when they go up to the higher positions.
I didn't work on vibrato, but it arrived anyway, naturally and controllably, after a couple of months, as my left hand loosened up, so it's there if I need it.
I haven't had any formal lessons in violin technique, and haven't seen them as necessary because I've unconsciously absorbed all I need from being surrounded by a couple of dozen violinists in orchestras over the years. I suppose that an advantage of this is that I didn't have a (classical) teacher to tell me to hold the instrument in the approved manner and to do such-and-such in a particular way - "because it's always been done like that". (BTW, Many years ago, my cello teacher encouraged me to think out problems for myself, and only to go to him if I was really stuck.) So the shoulder-rest went in the bin after a few weeks (one thing that now won't fall off or get loose!), and my chin-rest is now a minimalist affair - a 1" (2.5cm) piece of ebony next to the end of the tailpiece, and acting not so much as a rest but as an anchor for the chin, and I am much more aware of the vibrations of the fiddle. I think my hold is consequently closer to a baroque style than modern classical, and feels a lot more mobile and relaxed than the fairly fixed position of the modern orchestral player.
However, I've had specific lessons in things like ornaments and varous features of style.
The big problem for me, because I've been a sight-reading classical orchestral player all my life, and probably exacerbated by a slower learning speed in middle-age, was learning tunes by ear. I think it's now largely there, but it was difficult for the first year or so. The answer is to go to as many sessions and tune-learning workshops as possible.
I think an important advantage of going from the cello to the fiddle is that I didn't have any classical violin baggage to unlearn. I just had the basic neuro-muscular control in the left-hand and bowing already set up, and knowing how to listen, and no classical violin style or habits to overcome.
Trevor
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: from cello to fiddle
Trevor,
Thanks for your post. Your comments confirmed generally what I hoped to be the case. It's nice to hear it from someone who's actually done it, though! I agree that the bowing will be fairly easy to transfer. I've been playing a borrowed fiddle for two weeks or so. I also play tenor banjo, so I already know loads of tunes. However on the banjo, I use cello fingering, so I've had to change on the fidde to fiddle fingering. As you mentioned, getting my stubby middle finger out of the way in order to play with the third finger is a bit of a challenge. I'm sure it will work out fine over time. I've arranged to start lessons, but with an ITM fiddle player, not classical. Hope to report great results in the coming months!
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by nert
Re: from cello to fiddle
I think the bottom line is, if you've already reached a level of proficiency on a first melody instrument the basic skills you've acquired ease the transition to a different instrument.
Trevor
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: from cello to fiddle
I've taken a cello to sessions only twice, but those were workshop sessions and I was asked specifically to play a base line from a score for something or other (Sheebeg and Sheemore was one, I remember).
I'd never take a cello to a pub session 'cos the cello, of all instruments, is most easily damaged, and a lot of playing space is needed. It would be best in a pub if all the musos were on a stage or some other area to which the punters do NOT have access. Regarding the session music, I don't see much point in duplicating the tune an octave or more below; for one thing, there could be harmonic conflict with a backing guitar or whatever; for another, the cello isn't quite as agile as the fiddle or flute, due to the inertia of the heavier strings and bow, so that would be an intrinsic limiting factor. I think the cello would work best as part of a performing band, with its own integral part. Slow airs, prepared properly, should come off quite well on the cello in performance.
If you've learnt ITM ornaments on the fiddle there's no essential problem in playing them on the cello, except that you've got to work that little bit harder in order to overcome the inertia of the heavy strings I mentioned above.
Trevor
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: from cello to fiddle
How about octave fiddle? That might be quite good if you are used to playing down low - you'd have an instrument which is basically tuned a fifth above the standard cello tuning. There wouldn't be any problem with room then!
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by Mark Harmer