.... how many use their fourth finger instead of the open "e" in the "a " part of the Wise Maid, you know the note. My fourth fights me on this and I've opted for the easy way out.
The only times I use my fourth finger instead of the open strings are when 1) it's easier, or 2) it's a slow tune or one in which I really want the note to sound pretty or to use vibrato (which I do rarely).
Whether or not I use my fourth depends on what the tempo
is and how many beers I've already had.
ROFL
Seriously... there's a saying with regards to this...
When you are practicing a song... try what you know
you have trouble with....
When performing... try what you know you won't miss.
There is no such thing as an 'easy way out'.
It's all whether people are enjoying the music or not.
Trust your instincts. Do what feels right at all times.
when I started ITM fiddling four years ago (it was 25 years after I quit my violin lessons), I had no idea what the fourth finger would be good for .... weak and slow, not very reliable when precise intonation is a must be .... for a long time I was a three finger player. Then came the practising of rolls and the fourth finger got the right job: Rolls, gracenotes, hammering quick flicks. In the B part of King of the fairies is a long e that sounds great with a double stop on open e-string and sliding into e on a-string with the fourth finger - but, hell, itīs not easy to slide exactly into the right tone ;o)
I only use the pinky out of necessity, but I don’t try to avoid using it. Tunes like “Galway Rambler” & “Dusty Windowsill” need the pinky for the “e”. I also use it sometimes when others would use the open string, like in the beginning of “Maude Millar's” or when there’s a passage where the E is the highest note. Instead of going over a string for one note I find it easier to just pop that pinky down.
For me, this is one of those "all of the above" answers. Use your pinky. Use the open string. Slide the pinky into a matching drone with the open string above. Hold the pinky just a hair flat from the open string above and rock the bow between the two for a kind of pipey wavering effect.
Learn to be comfortable doing all of the above so you won't be "forced" to play it one way or the other simply because you can't make it work any other way.
Also, consider tweaking the phrase that contains the note in question. Crusty, I'm not sure what "e" you mean in the A part of Wise Maid. The 3rd and 7th measures? I play those:
K: D maj
|d2 (3efg fdec|
or
|dfeg fdec|
and I would use the open string in both instances--for the first e in each measure because I'm going to a higher note on that string, and for the second e in each measure because it needs the rhythmic emphasis of coming onto the open string with the bow.
I understand that fiddlers, for the most part, prefer the harsher sound of an open string and use that sound to great effect. Violinists, on the other hand, emphasize a clean sound with a lot of vibrato, so they avoid the open strings as much as possible, using the fourth finger in almost every case.
Recently, I'm exercising my fourth finger and I'm finding all sorts of intonation benefits with my other fingers as I strengthen my fourth. The real challange is landing on the tip of the pinky and avoiding dampening of the lower strings. It also helps out playing reels when your fourth finger gets a real workout on the E string.
Anyway, if you can manage a good tone with the fourth finger on the A string, your E string position can only benefit. However, unless you plan to slide into the E on the A string (or use vibrato, for a lark), I'd generally avoid the fourth finger altogether. To each their own.
An open string is clean & steady, vibrato is harsh. The whole reason vibrato is used in classical music is to smooth out the tunefulness of an orchestra, in other words "Fudging"
Kevin, I'd say that distinction between fiddle (open strings) and violin (fourth finger) oversimplifies what really happens. Sure, violinists tend to use that fourth finger a lot, especially whenever a consistent (to my ear overdone) vibrato is applied to every note. But there are plenty of open strings in the classical repertoire (most obviously in arpeggios).
And lots of fiddlers routinely use their fourth fingers (for something other than cleaning wax from their ears), instead of the open string above, for a variety of reasons. There are a number of ITM tunes where I use the fourth finger (and I come from the fiddle end of the spectrum), either because (1) after trying it both ways I decided it worked better for me, or (2) it provides a variation: the Monaghan Jig (particularly the fourth part), Music in the Glen, Rambling Pitchfork, Top of Cork Road, Mice in the Cupboard (aka Willie Coleman's), O'Keefe's Polka, Trip to Sligo, Kid on the Mountain, Bobby Casey's Hornpipe, and so on. Even so common a reel as Wind that Shakes the Barley gets a fourth finger thrown into the mix now and then precisely because it's nice to take advantage of the different tonal qualities.
I dunno. I say it's useful to get that fourth finger working, strong and arched, and don't give up on getting the intonation on target until your neighbor's dog chews the fingerboard off the neck in retaliation....
Seems to me that an open string tends to sound louder and have a more ringing tone than the same note with the fourth finger, which tends to be more muted and so blends in better. If you don't want the note to stand out, then you might want to use the finger instead. Of course, maybe it is because playing a solid note with the 4th is harder than with the open string and (tongue placed firmly in cheek) in classical music doing it the hard way is admired, while in ITM, it is considered a sign of a lack of wisdom.
So, what Will said - if you are comfortable with using that fourth finger for more than personal hygiene, all the better.
Ah yes, sez I, no problem, I'll just add it to the little list of things to work on - learn 5000 tunes; get bowed triplets; keep those fingers down; work up the speed; control that bow instead of it controlling you; master long rolls, short rolls, cuts, slides; increase tolerance to alcohol; make a jig sound like a jig; strengthen that 4th finger. have I got them all? *grin*.
Always nice to have a little disagreement! Obviously, there is no real harm in using the fourth finger. As for the (open string/fourth finger = fiddler/violinist) statement, I shared that post as that has been my understanding when talking with several classically trained violinists. Not to say that they never use an open string, just that they mostly avoid doing so for the benefit of the vibrato (which I agree is way overdone).
This same question was asked (by one of the afore mentioned classically trained violinists I knew) of Kevin Burke at a work shop here three years back. Kevin replied that you could use the fourth finger, and that sometimes it's simpler but that he felt the open strings have a perferable tone quality. Hows that for equivocal!
I play several of the tunes you've listed Will (all fine tunes) and while I can honestly say I've never used (or even considered using) the fourth finger on any of them, I'll pull them out and see what can be done with them. I didn't even consider using them as an fourth-finger excercise (duh!). While I certainly have an opinion/preference to open strings, I do want the fourth-finger strength under my belt.
I got an exercise from a great fiddler which works on the pinky: try babg b^fbe then babg b=fbeb then transpose it to the other strings ede^c eBeA & ede=c eBeAe & so on & so forth. I helps out with using the pinky for more than just grace-notes.
First & foremost is rhythm & learning a bzillion tunes (well) as lonefiddler said. I've heard players with kick-but rhythm & so-so intonation - they were still great, on the other hand I've seen fiddlers with perfect intonation that played everything with straight boring rhythm who wanked (same goes for every other instrument). I'm not condoning bad intonation, but this is first & foremost dance music & the rhythmic aspect is key to making it sound great.
For rhythm just think...
SUP-er-KAH-li-FRAG-il-IST-ic-EXP-pe-AL-ee-OUC-ious
or
SUP-er CAL-i AC-id HITS-in EX-tra HEAV-y DOS-es
for the rhythm.
One excercise I came up with for rhythm which work for all but flute & tinwhistle is to "Lilt"(Sing out) the tune as you play it using two words "DOWD-le & DEED-le" Every reel & hornpipe can be broken down to these two non-sense words (Leave the triplets out & use quavers instead) . Jigs work well with "DOWD-le-Lee DOOD-le-Lee" Listen to some old "Lilters" to get the timing down - it proved a very good excercise for myself.
Good luck
~b
Yeah Will, that's the part. The fdec. Having read the responses I don't feel so bad about
using the open strings. Usually I have to decide which way I'll treat the potential fourth finger
note while first learning the tune cause once I learn a tune it can screw up my bowing to
change.
Yes, I have to work on all that too, but I'll be happy if I can just get my foot to tap consistantly as I play reels rather than shake spastically on the floor like some dying fish! Ah well, keep at it they say!
Well, thats why I love the session discussions so much: someone starts the thread with a simple question ("what is my left hand fourth finger good for?") and the whole thing turns out to be a perfect and very helpful workshop in something much bigger (this time in rhythm .... ) thats great, folks!!!!! ..... and please forget the violin vs. fiddle thing - you all know a violin is a fiddle that went to college ...
Ahhh...you've heard "a violin sings and a fiddle dances" (relevant to Brad's point above), but I prefer "a violin puts on airs, while a fiddle plays them." *wink*
Just wanted to add that I, as a whistler, never use the fourth finger, expcept perhaps to steady the whistle sometimes. Quite superfluous. And I know what an open bar is, but what is an open string?
I'm curious fiddlers:
I'm curious fiddlers:
.... how many use their fourth finger instead of the open "e" in the "a " part of the Wise Maid, you know the note. My fourth fights me on this and I've opted for the easy way out.
# Posted on April 8th 2002 by Crusty
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
The only times I use my fourth finger instead of the open strings are when 1) it's easier, or 2) it's a slow tune or one in which I really want the note to sound pretty or to use vibrato (which I do rarely).
zls
# Posted on April 8th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
Whether or not I use my fourth depends on what the tempo
is and how many beers I've already had.
ROFL
Seriously... there's a saying with regards to this...
When you are practicing a song... try what you know
you have trouble with....
When performing... try what you know you won't miss.
There is no such thing as an 'easy way out'.
It's all whether people are enjoying the music or not.
Trust your instincts. Do what feels right at all times.
# Posted on April 8th 2002 by kiley
His job are the quick flicks.....
when I started ITM fiddling four years ago (it was 25 years after I quit my violin lessons), I had no idea what the fourth finger would be good for .... weak and slow, not very reliable when precise intonation is a must be .... for a long time I was a three finger player. Then came the practising of rolls and the fourth finger got the right job: Rolls, gracenotes, hammering quick flicks. In the B part of King of the fairies is a long e that sounds great with a double stop on open e-string and sliding into e on a-string with the fourth finger - but, hell, itīs not easy to slide exactly into the right tone ;o)
# Posted on April 8th 2002 by crannog
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
I only use the pinky out of necessity, but I don’t try to avoid using it. Tunes like “Galway Rambler” & “Dusty Windowsill” need the pinky for the “e”. I also use it sometimes when others would use the open string, like in the beginning of “Maude Millar's” or when there’s a passage where the E is the highest note. Instead of going over a string for one note I find it easier to just pop that pinky down.
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
For me, this is one of those "all of the above" answers. Use your pinky. Use the open string. Slide the pinky into a matching drone with the open string above. Hold the pinky just a hair flat from the open string above and rock the bow between the two for a kind of pipey wavering effect.
Learn to be comfortable doing all of the above so you won't be "forced" to play it one way or the other simply because you can't make it work any other way.
Also, consider tweaking the phrase that contains the note in question. Crusty, I'm not sure what "e" you mean in the A part of Wise Maid. The 3rd and 7th measures? I play those:
K: D maj
|d2 (3efg fdec|
or
|dfeg fdec|
and I would use the open string in both instances--for the first e in each measure because I'm going to a higher note on that string, and for the second e in each measure because it needs the rhythmic emphasis of coming onto the open string with the bow.
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
I understand that fiddlers, for the most part, prefer the harsher sound of an open string and use that sound to great effect. Violinists, on the other hand, emphasize a clean sound with a lot of vibrato, so they avoid the open strings as much as possible, using the fourth finger in almost every case.
Recently, I'm exercising my fourth finger and I'm finding all sorts of intonation benefits with my other fingers as I strengthen my fourth. The real challange is landing on the tip of the pinky and avoiding dampening of the lower strings. It also helps out playing reels when your fourth finger gets a real workout on the E string.
Anyway, if you can manage a good tone with the fourth finger on the A string, your E string position can only benefit. However, unless you plan to slide into the E on the A string (or use vibrato, for a lark), I'd generally avoid the fourth finger altogether. To each their own.
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
An open string is clean & steady, vibrato is harsh. The whole reason vibrato is used in classical music is to smooth out the tunefulness of an orchestra, in other words "Fudging"
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Mad Baloney
well it's not really fudging, it's just a whole 'nother approach to playing the fiddle/violin. Classical music does have it merits.
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
Kevin, I'd say that distinction between fiddle (open strings) and violin (fourth finger) oversimplifies what really happens. Sure, violinists tend to use that fourth finger a lot, especially whenever a consistent (to my ear overdone) vibrato is applied to every note. But there are plenty of open strings in the classical repertoire (most obviously in arpeggios).
And lots of fiddlers routinely use their fourth fingers (for something other than cleaning wax from their ears), instead of the open string above, for a variety of reasons. There are a number of ITM tunes where I use the fourth finger (and I come from the fiddle end of the spectrum), either because (1) after trying it both ways I decided it worked better for me, or (2) it provides a variation: the Monaghan Jig (particularly the fourth part), Music in the Glen, Rambling Pitchfork, Top of Cork Road, Mice in the Cupboard (aka Willie Coleman's), O'Keefe's Polka, Trip to Sligo, Kid on the Mountain, Bobby Casey's Hornpipe, and so on. Even so common a reel as Wind that Shakes the Barley gets a fourth finger thrown into the mix now and then precisely because it's nice to take advantage of the different tonal qualities.
I dunno. I say it's useful to get that fourth finger working, strong and arched, and don't give up on getting the intonation on target until your neighbor's dog chews the fingerboard off the neck in retaliation....
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
Seems to me that an open string tends to sound louder and have a more ringing tone than the same note with the fourth finger, which tends to be more muted and so blends in better. If you don't want the note to stand out, then you might want to use the finger instead. Of course, maybe it is because playing a solid note with the 4th is harder than with the open string and (tongue placed firmly in cheek) in classical music doing it the hard way is admired, while in ITM, it is considered a sign of a lack of wisdom.
So, what Will said - if you are comfortable with using that fourth finger for more than personal hygiene, all the better.
Ah yes, sez I, no problem, I'll just add it to the little list of things to work on - learn 5000 tunes; get bowed triplets; keep those fingers down; work up the speed; control that bow instead of it controlling you; master long rolls, short rolls, cuts, slides; increase tolerance to alcohol; make a jig sound like a jig; strengthen that 4th finger. have I got them all? *grin*.
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
Always nice to have a little disagreement! Obviously, there is no real harm in using the fourth finger. As for the (open string/fourth finger = fiddler/violinist) statement, I shared that post as that has been my understanding when talking with several classically trained violinists. Not to say that they never use an open string, just that they mostly avoid doing so for the benefit of the vibrato (which I agree is way overdone).
This same question was asked (by one of the afore mentioned classically trained violinists I knew) of Kevin Burke at a work shop here three years back. Kevin replied that you could use the fourth finger, and that sometimes it's simpler but that he felt the open strings have a perferable tone quality. Hows that for equivocal!
I play several of the tunes you've listed Will (all fine tunes) and while I can honestly say I've never used (or even considered using) the fourth finger on any of them, I'll pull them out and see what can be done with them. I didn't even consider using them as an fourth-finger excercise (duh!). While I certainly have an opinion/preference to open strings, I do want the fourth-finger strength under my belt.
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Riddim
I got an exercise from a great fiddler which works on the pinky: try babg b^fbe then babg b=fbeb then transpose it to the other strings ede^c eBeA & ede=c eBeAe & so on & so forth. I helps out with using the pinky for more than just grace-notes.
First & foremost is rhythm & learning a bzillion tunes (well) as lonefiddler said. I've heard players with kick-but rhythm & so-so intonation - they were still great, on the other hand I've seen fiddlers with perfect intonation that played everything with straight boring rhythm who wanked (same goes for every other instrument). I'm not condoning bad intonation, but this is first & foremost dance music & the rhythmic aspect is key to making it sound great.
For rhythm just think...
SUP-er-KAH-li-FRAG-il-IST-ic-EXP-pe-AL-ee-OUC-ious
or
SUP-er CAL-i AC-id HITS-in EX-tra HEAV-y DOS-es
for the rhythm.
One excercise I came up with for rhythm which work for all but flute & tinwhistle is to "Lilt"(Sing out) the tune as you play it using two words "DOWD-le & DEED-le" Every reel & hornpipe can be broken down to these two non-sense words (Leave the triplets out & use quavers instead) . Jigs work well with "DOWD-le-Lee DOOD-le-Lee" Listen to some old "Lilters" to get the timing down - it proved a very good excercise for myself.
Good luck
~b
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
Yeah Will, that's the part. The fdec. Having read the responses I don't feel so bad about
using the open strings. Usually I have to decide which way I'll treat the potential fourth finger
note while first learning the tune cause once I learn a tune it can screw up my bowing to
change.
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Crusty
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
lonefiddler,
Yes, I have to work on all that too, but I'll be happy if I can just get my foot to tap consistantly as I play reels rather than shake spastically on the floor like some dying fish! Ah well, keep at it they say!
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Caoimghgin
BTW, thanks for the excercise Mad. I'll give it a try.
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Caoimghgin
SHOE-be-de-DOO-ba-DOWD-de-le-DEE-de-leeee.....
Well, thats why I love the session discussions so much: someone starts the thread with a simple question ("what is my left hand fourth finger good for?") and the whole thing turns out to be a perfect and very helpful workshop in something much bigger (this time in rhythm .... ) thats great, folks!!!!! ..... and please forget the violin vs. fiddle thing - you all know a violin is a fiddle that went to college ...
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by crannog
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
I once asked the fiddler for Paradise Lost what the difference was between a fiddle and a violin. His immediate answer was, "Attitude."
zls
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
Ahhh...you've heard "a violin sings and a fiddle dances" (relevant to Brad's point above), but I prefer "a violin puts on airs, while a fiddle plays them." *wink*
# Posted on April 10th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
Just wanted to add that I, as a whistler, never use the fourth finger, expcept perhaps to steady the whistle sometimes. Quite superfluous. And I know what an open bar is, but what is an open string?
=)
# Posted on April 10th 2002 by Bloomfield
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
And the thing to remember about an open mind is that if your mind is *always* open, sometimes everything falls out. *grin*
Zina
# Posted on April 10th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
(Another 'what's the difference between a violin and fiddle'), you don't have to worry about beer being split on a violin. *ha*
# Posted on April 10th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
The difference between a fiddle and a violin is that a violin has four strings while a fiddle has two (too)
Joe
# Posted on April 11th 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: I'm curious fiddlers:
The formula for the difference between a fiddle and a violin:
A=[(amount of rosin caked over the soundhole + number of broken bowhairs) X average tempo]
B= [(frequency of vibrato + likelihood of tuxedo + angle of nose to ceiling) X (length of bow utilised + distance in inches of right hand from frog)
If A>B, then "fiddle". If A
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Hey!
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Hm. The rest of my post failed to post. I probably accidentally programmed some HTML. Oh, well. That's the jist of it.
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Difference between violin and fiddle
A conversation with my resident bluegrass fiddle player (BFP):
(me) So, what's the difference between a violin and a fiddle?
(BFP) You get more for your money with a fiddle.
(me) You mean that violin players use more expensive instruments?
(BFP) No. Just that, back when I played violin, there were only 12 notes in an octave. Now, playing fiddle, I get dozens of notes out of each octave.
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by x