Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
So, I was talking with my Father, and he said that my playing has no life. (thanks da ;) ) So I showed him J. Doherty, essentially the same response, no bounce to it. Then I showed him Altan, and boom 'life'. Same with K Burke (solo) and Patrick Street, etc.
So, that started me wondering.... how do I get the 'nyah', the verve, the 'life', into my fiddle playing?
And how do you play those blody Polkas??!?!?!?!!! Argh!
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Sometimes it's not the notes but the gaps between the notes that are important! I don't know how you play but when I had the same problem, I found the way forward was to lighten my fiddle style and get more lift on the bow. My bow now spends a lot less time on the strings!
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
And if yourself wants to change your playing style why not!! I made a big leap adapting from classical to folk and now make smaller changes - and I'm a lot happier with my playing now than three years ago!
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Padraig ... I sympathise. At a session recently, the crowd had thinned out and at the end of the night all that remained of the players was myself (tenor banjo) and a guitarist. I was on the verge of putting my kit away, when a punter asked for another couple of tunes.
I obliged, at which point another punter, barely able to stand with the drink, lurched into the vicinity and shook his head and muttered disapprovingly under his breath throughout my few tunes.
As I finished he slurred. "No ... you haven't got it! You haven't got it!"
"Sorry?"
"... (Incomprehensible)... You haven't got it!"
"Got what?"
He plucked drunkenly at his t-shirt, imitating my playing. "It! The doubles and the trebles. ...(un-make-out-able, dribbling and slabbering)... you're playing too straight. BELCH!!"
At this point I should have said. "At least I can stand up, and I can talk reasonably coherently and I don't have suspicious stains around my fly area ..." But I didn't.
I thanked him for his kind observations and said I'd think about them next time I got the gear out to play.
He slurred his next response, but for a blind-drunk lachako, it was stinging enough. "You can think about them all you want; but you still won't have it! You can't think it!"
Should just have been one of those encounters that you shrug off. I mean, as I was waiting for my bus home, I saw the same character being evicted forcibly from the pub, crash from doorway to doorway for five minutes and finally slump asleep on a park bench opposite.
But it bugged me for days. I found myself wanting to ask people "Do I have it?"
Because I suspect at the heel of the hunt there's an element of truth in what he's saying ... like most players I'm still looking for "it" and although "it" is sometimes present in my playing, there are times when "it" is noticeable by "its" absence.
What can we do? Persevere. Know what "it" means for our playing. Sometimes "it's" as elusive as the rainbow's end. However at others, you find that everything clicks (or most things click). Perhaps playing music is about getting to the stage where everything clicks all of the time or, at least, most things click most of the time.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
"it" is not about clicking or practice or anything that can be described technically. Infact, one of the worst things you can do if you think you don't have "it" is to practice. This music requires very little in the way of technique.
I suggest leaving your instrument alone for a couple of months. At least a couple of months, long enough for your brain to lose the neural connections to your fingers (don't worry, it'll come back).
Spend this time simply listening to the music you enjoy.Listen hard and sing along. learn loads of new tunes just by singing along. Sing them along at sessions or in the car to recordings, where ever. Then when your two months is up, pick up your instrument again and play these new tunes only. Do not be tempted to pick or toot away at the tunes you already played befor or you'll ruin "it".
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
I know what you mean about a throw away comment by a drunk bugging you for days. Several years ago when I'd just started playing in sessions I was told that trad fiddle players don't use the 4th finger. I spent weeks mulling over that one - and then started to make conscious decisions about when and where to use the 4th finger depending on the piece I was playing and the sound I wanted to achieve. I suppose I ought to be grateful to that drunk really!
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Actually, the last time I was listening to Aidan I was admiring his mandola "doubles and trebles" (as if you could distill 'it' down to a couple of technical devices!) and thinking yeah, he's got it.
My friends were just over from Ireland and reminding me about the Wexford publican who said my banjo playing was "rough!" "and your guitar playing's like your banjo. Rough! Your singing's too smooth and your playing's too rough! Rough!!"
That still stings and it was 15 years ago.
I heard he left the pub trade and is studying architecture. I'll be there heckling at the unveiling of his first building ......
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Danny,I think what Michael means is the nyah requires very little technique, in direct response to Padraig's initial post. And I agree. On fiddle, all you need is decent bow control, and the coordination to have the right and left hands work together. If you already have the nyah (through osmosis, from immersion in the tunes played with nyah), then it will come out, even if you can't do rolls or triplets and your intonation is sketchy.
If you don't yet have the nyah, plugging away at technique won't help. But listening to the tunes played by someone with the nyah and getting them in your head that way will go a long ways toward letting the nyah come through.
Listen to Kevin Burke play Walsh's Hornpipe. Technically undemanding, but lots of nyah.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Surely having the control over your instrument required to unearth yer nyah, requires very much in the way of technique? Not, I agree, the usual rolls & triplets, (although to have them at your disposal must help - maybe overuse of them obscures yer individual nyah, but judicious occasional use can't do any harm) but just being in the position to allow yer yoke to become another limb/voice, over which you have absolute control? (Not saying I'm anywhere near that but I have had the odd moment.)
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
I agree with simon, liam, bout the bloody polkas, watch set dancers (good lively ones preferably kerry or clare lunatics - I always think the crackdest ones have the best rhythm...)you'll really get the feel of them then (the polkas, not the dancers...)And in relation to the nyah/havin it thing...sometimes I get a little bit bored with the tunes I've been playing for ages...or ya might play a tune and not get a feel for it... my da's been playin a lot of his tunes for over 40 years so I was askin him did he ever get sick of tunes. He just said that I wasn't allowed get bored with them...in other words put your own spin on it, and try to horse into the tune at the beginning, put a bit of lift on it or a bit of a chord or base...dunno if this will help but I think it worked for me, I don't care how shite I am any more I just belt into it!
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Danny, I think we're talking about different levels of technique here. Yes, you have to be able to play your instrument. But a fiddler doesn't have to be Paganini to pull off the Concertina Reel.
To get nyah on a fiddle takes good bow control, something that doesn't come easily to most people. But it's the most basic of bow control I'm talking about here, not the pyrotechnics of a virtuoso. Yes, Padraig and the rest of us have to woodshed for some years to get that feel, but all the woodshedding in the world--and the 'best technique'--won't give you the nyah. For that, you have to soak yourself in nyah-filled music.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Jayz, Michael, I wish the music was as easy as you make it out to be. Maybe you're just blessed with more innate talent than I've been born with, but I can guarantee you that there's a power of people on this site and elsewhere who sweat buckets over their music. And rightly so! I would wager that the vast majority of us believe ourselves to be at some point on a learning curve and that even the best players don't feel that they can say that they've completed their musical journey.
Your suggestion that someone leaves their playing aside for a few months might work for you, but it won't work for everyone. In any event, for me, playing is not an option; it's at the core of who I am. Not to play would leave a vacuum in my life. I *could* simply listen to music, but what would be the point? Being a spectator doesn't press my buttons.
How I've dealt with yer man's comments is to have a wee think about what "it" is and to acknowledge that his "it" may very well be different to my "it". And as long as I know what my "it" is (and there are hundreds of "its") and I'm making progress towards my "it", then that's all that matters.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Aidan, there's a difference between the kind of listening I'm (and I think Michael) talking about and "being a spectator." I'm talking about listening deeply and repeatedly to the tunes till you can play them in exquisite detail in your head, with nyah. That's a very active, participatory thing--nothing passive about it. I'd go so far as to say playing with nyah is similar to playing the tunes at all--you can't do it unless you really get it in your head first.
Padraig may need to take a break from actually playing the fiddle (though I'm guessing it might need to be only a week) so his physical habits don't get in the way of absorbing the nyah. I know that when I've tried to alter my approach to the music, I start out with clear intentions and end up sounding like I always have. It can be hard enough to really hear the nuances that make the difference, let alone hear *and* physically replicate them all at once. Sometimes you have to get away from whatever stage your fingers and bow arm are at to leap your mind to another level, and then go back and drag your fingers and bow arm along.
What's interesting to me is, once you have the nyah, how easily it transers to new tunes and even new instruments. My sense of timing and phrasing and nyah carried over from fiddle to flute as soon as I could fill the damn thing without passing out. Nearly two years later, my embouchure still sucks, and my cuts, taps, and rolls have a long way to go, but I quickly understood how to lean on the notes with my breath and airstream to play the few tunes I know on flute with lift enough to coax dancers onto their feet. In short, once you've got the nyah it'll come out in your playing, even without technical proficiency.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Perhaps it's such a basic point that no one else is bothering to mention it, but playing in sessions is very deluding! One can be rattling along, having a hell of a time, but if there were pickups on the instrument so you could hear just yourself later..... Playing alone, (by the fireside if necessary to make it more traditional,) and listening fiercely and critically is crucial. There may be a few God-given talents around, but to my mind, it's the power to listen that makes people good, whether or not they know that! Recording oneself is a terrific tool as well. It can't be "traditional" but it's amazing how fast it makes a difference.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Does anyone find that they have more nyah in their head than in the music that comes out? There are arguments for listening deeply and getting the music inside you. I totally agree with that and with the idea that your ear is the primary tool for learning this music.
I also agree that recording yourself is an excellent tool, and it can really teach you something about how you sound. Sometimes, your mind, your inner ear can make you sound like it wants you to sound. So that if you never record yourself, you may never "hear" how you truly sound to others.
For instance, I thought of myself internally as a pretty smooth player (more Sligo than Donegal). Upon recording myself, I found that was not true. That allowed me to approach tunes a little bit differently, moving my sound closer to how I think about the music.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
In answer to Jode, who asked "Does anyone find they have more nyah in their head than in the music that comes out"
Oh yeah.......recording oneself is entirely revealing. I'll be playing something into that minidisc, and I think I'm getting this languid Clare feel to it, and I listen and it sounds RUSHED! Phoo!
Recording oneself is a very good idea. Takes a lot of nerve, but it might be the only way to really know what's going on.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Recording IS scary, Kate! I only took up the fiddle a few months ago...and recorded myself attempting to play a couple weeks ago...came very near close to tossing the darn thing in the trash and retreating to my trusty whistle (I have since picked it back up...decided not to record for at least anothher month or more!)...which is not so scary to listen to as that fiddle...last time I recorded myself, I found a few things I was doing wrong, which prompted some heavyduty listening to top-notch flute and whistle players, and thus a large change for the better in my playing. So recording...good...and bad...but always honest.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
There are a few points raised, I'll try to respond:
1. Diddley music is the least technically demanding and the most musically demanding (by that I meen feel) of any music I know of. That's why I like it. You can be really very good at it and yet not have to practice.
2. Don't bother asking someone you know how good your playing is. They'll be nice to you. Trust a stranger (drunk or not).
OR
Don't care. It's much esier and you'll have more fun (which will make you a better player in the long run anyway).
3. There is nothing passive about singing tunes. Sing tunes in sessions, it's great, and really adds to the overall sound. If you think you are one of those people who have "it" in their head, but not on their instrument, put the instrument down and sing.
4. Away with the "record your self" nonsence. It's just naval gazing. What you may get out of it in technique will be more than off set by the inducement of paranoia. OR, if you like what you hear, what you get out of it will just be arrogance. What's worse, arrogance or paranoia? Neither have a place in music.
5. I've noticed that some people on this site tend to beat thmselves up about the learning curve thing, how steep it is, where they are on it etc.
Try to think of it as more of a circle in zero gravity, with no start, top, bottom, steeper bits etc. You climb on the wheel and round you go. Constantly learning, but with no end. Passing youself many times. You might speed up a bit or slow down, but that doesn't matter 'cause there is no goal at the end of it, just being on is enough. And sharing it with others. .
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Michael's right.
It's naval gazing - "I see no ships - only hardships"
which kind of sums up the approach of some people who post on this site.
Often Mr Gill says something along the lines of "stop worrying and just get on and play". And as more time goes by, I increasingly subscribe to that view myself.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Disagree with point 4...recording yourself is a useful tool. It won't make you go blind, or in itself make you paranoid or arrogant.
I am saying it is a good touchpoint, not a primary focus. Try it maybe once a year, or once every three years, just to see what you sound like to other people. Just to see if what you think you sound like, is really what you sound like.
Perhaps Michael is right in one sense. If it is going to stress you out and make you overly self conscious, then don't do it. But if it helps you to improve your sound, and it makes you happier, then do it.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Have been playing for just over a year and have taken alot from this site to heart. However have just about got to the stage where I am falling of my curve and hoping to land in Michael's circle. Its just not that easy - its so tempting to think that the harder I practice this bit or that bit the quicker I'll get to the end of the road, and maybe this particular written piece of advice will cut this particular corner.
I actually used to spend more time looking for the secrets of playing here than actually playing! And the erudite but occasionaly spiky Mr Gill used to get my goat - how can he be so cynical and hard nosed about the music etc.
But I think I understand it know, its not about learning to play, its about playing. As time goes by I will improve, but its crazy not to enjoy time spent playing just because you think you arn't learning quickly. Just play.
lost count how many times I have pressed delete and typed stuff over again. I'm not good at expressing myself and allways need 10 minutes to say 2 minutes worth of stuff. I just wanted to say to the rest of us lurking begginers - don't worry, stop stressing, take the big chill pill. The learning never stops so just play.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Singing the tunes is great idea and is something I do myself. However, I'm not sure that it would be welcome in a session situation. Would it? Is it more tolerable than drums, recorders, ocarinas, washboards etc?
As for recording, I'm not totally convinced. You are not playing naturally and are aware of the microphone. Sometimes, you're likely to make even more mistakes. However, as Dave says, it's all right to do on very rare occasions just to see if you have actually improved.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Get a copy of the Amazing Slow downer and a copy of a cd you really like and try and copy your favourite tunes dot for dot. Try and copy their style as much as you can. If your just starting this is fine cause it is like having a lesson with a professional! Movement can also help you to connect with a tune. If your enjoying playing other people will be-able to see that!
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Oohhh, I think that's bad advice. All you get from slowing tunes down is the ability to get all the notes in the right order. But, as we know, this is not a high priority in diddly music (see variations and versions, extensively discussed). A higher priority is the feel of the music, and the topic of this discussion. Electronically slowing down a recording totally destroys the feel.
And why should movement connect you with a tune. If you're playing it wrong to start with, your movement will only accentuate this. n
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
But getting the feel of the music is the first step down the right path. If you've not got the feel, you may be running away quite happily, but down the wrong path. And it's hard to jump accross that grassy verge on to the right path when you're speeding along.
This is why I advocate listening. Disecting stuff by slowing it down is not listening. You can't get the feel for this music by analysing it.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
You don't need to slow it down that much, though. I don't see the benefit of listening to it at half speed or even less. It sounds too different to be of that much help. However, about 80% (or slightly more or less) is fine and can be very helpful when listening to really fast players. And, as you mentioned once before, you can use the same software to speed Martin Hayes up.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Michael, you`re right as regards getting the feel of the music. You so often hear musicians playing all the notes of a tune, in the right sequence, but it`s barely recognisable because there`s no feel for the tune, or for the music in general.
That feel for the music can only be got by hours and hours of listening. For anybody on the learning curve - which means all of us - I think the listening/practice ratio should be something like 60/40.
I always learn tunes, from tapes or CDs, at normal playing speed. I don`t read music so it all has to be done by ear. It takes time and patience, but at some stage I`ve got to check and make sure I`m playing the notes in the right order. Once I`ve got that sorted out, then I can concentrate on putting a bit of swing into it.
Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
So, I was talking with my Father, and he said that my playing has no life. (thanks da ;) ) So I showed him J. Doherty, essentially the same response, no bounce to it. Then I showed him Altan, and boom 'life'. Same with K Burke (solo) and Patrick Street, etc.
So, that started me wondering.... how do I get the 'nyah', the verve, the 'life', into my fiddle playing?
And how do you play those blody Polkas??!?!?!?!!! Argh!
Yrs in the Music,
Pádraig
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Don't listen to your dad for one thing. John Doherty's plenty lively. :^P
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Play for dancers
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by s1m0n
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Sometimes it's not the notes but the gaps between the notes that are important! I don't know how you play but when I had the same problem, I found the way forward was to lighten my fiddle style and get more lift on the bow. My bow now spends a lot less time on the strings!
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Tarrantella
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
don't try so hardP
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Don't try to be someone else - be yourself.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
And if yourself wants to change your playing style why not!! I made a big leap adapting from classical to folk and now make smaller changes - and I'm a lot happier with my playing now than three years ago!
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Tarrantella
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Padraig ... I sympathise. At a session recently, the crowd had thinned out and at the end of the night all that remained of the players was myself (tenor banjo) and a guitarist. I was on the verge of putting my kit away, when a punter asked for another couple of tunes.
I obliged, at which point another punter, barely able to stand with the drink, lurched into the vicinity and shook his head and muttered disapprovingly under his breath throughout my few tunes.
As I finished he slurred. "No ... you haven't got it! You haven't got it!"
"Sorry?"
"... (Incomprehensible)... You haven't got it!"
"Got what?"
He plucked drunkenly at his t-shirt, imitating my playing. "It! The doubles and the trebles. ...(un-make-out-able, dribbling and slabbering)... you're playing too straight. BELCH!!"
At this point I should have said. "At least I can stand up, and I can talk reasonably coherently and I don't have suspicious stains around my fly area ..." But I didn't.
I thanked him for his kind observations and said I'd think about them next time I got the gear out to play.
He slurred his next response, but for a blind-drunk lachako, it was stinging enough. "You can think about them all you want; but you still won't have it! You can't think it!"
Should just have been one of those encounters that you shrug off. I mean, as I was waiting for my bus home, I saw the same character being evicted forcibly from the pub, crash from doorway to doorway for five minutes and finally slump asleep on a park bench opposite.
But it bugged me for days. I found myself wanting to ask people "Do I have it?"
Because I suspect at the heel of the hunt there's an element of truth in what he's saying ... like most players I'm still looking for "it" and although "it" is sometimes present in my playing, there are times when "it" is noticeable by "its" absence.
What can we do? Persevere. Know what "it" means for our playing. Sometimes "it's" as elusive as the rainbow's end. However at others, you find that everything clicks (or most things click). Perhaps playing music is about getting to the stage where everything clicks all of the time or, at least, most things click most of the time.
Keep on at it!
Aidan
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
"it" is not about clicking or practice or anything that can be described technically. Infact, one of the worst things you can do if you think you don't have "it" is to practice. This music requires very little in the way of technique.
I suggest leaving your instrument alone for a couple of months. At least a couple of months, long enough for your brain to lose the neural connections to your fingers (don't worry, it'll come back).
Spend this time simply listening to the music you enjoy.Listen hard and sing along. learn loads of new tunes just by singing along. Sing them along at sessions or in the car to recordings, where ever. Then when your two months is up, pick up your instrument again and play these new tunes only. Do not be tempted to pick or toot away at the tunes you already played befor or you'll ruin "it".
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
I know what you mean about a throw away comment by a drunk bugging you for days. Several years ago when I'd just started playing in sessions I was told that trad fiddle players don't use the 4th finger. I spent weeks mulling over that one - and then started to make conscious decisions about when and where to use the 4th finger depending on the piece I was playing and the sound I wanted to achieve. I suppose I ought to be grateful to that drunk really!
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Tarrantella
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
This music requires very little in the way of technique.
??????????????
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Actually, the last time I was listening to Aidan I was admiring his mandola "doubles and trebles" (as if you could distill 'it' down to a couple of technical devices!) and thinking yeah, he's got it.
My friends were just over from Ireland and reminding me about the Wexford publican who said my banjo playing was "rough!" "and your guitar playing's like your banjo. Rough! Your singing's too smooth and your playing's too rough! Rough!!"
That still stings and it was 15 years ago.
I heard he left the pub trade and is studying architecture. I'll be there heckling at the unveiling of his first building ......
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Bren
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Danny,I think what Michael means is the nyah requires very little technique, in direct response to Padraig's initial post. And I agree. On fiddle, all you need is decent bow control, and the coordination to have the right and left hands work together. If you already have the nyah (through osmosis, from immersion in the tunes played with nyah), then it will come out, even if you can't do rolls or triplets and your intonation is sketchy.
If you don't yet have the nyah, plugging away at technique won't help. But listening to the tunes played by someone with the nyah and getting them in your head that way will go a long ways toward letting the nyah come through.
Listen to Kevin Burke play Walsh's Hornpipe. Technically undemanding, but lots of nyah.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Surely having the control over your instrument required to unearth yer nyah, requires very much in the way of technique? Not, I agree, the usual rolls & triplets, (although to have them at your disposal must help - maybe overuse of them obscures yer individual nyah, but judicious occasional use can't do any harm) but just being in the position to allow yer yoke to become another limb/voice, over which you have absolute control? (Not saying I'm anywhere near that but I have had the odd moment.)
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
I agree with simon, liam, bout the bloody polkas, watch set dancers (good lively ones preferably kerry or clare lunatics - I always think the crackdest ones have the best rhythm...)you'll really get the feel of them then (the polkas, not the dancers...)And in relation to the nyah/havin it thing...sometimes I get a little bit bored with the tunes I've been playing for ages...or ya might play a tune and not get a feel for it... my da's been playin a lot of his tunes for over 40 years so I was askin him did he ever get sick of tunes. He just said that I wasn't allowed get bored with them...in other words put your own spin on it, and try to horse into the tune at the beginning, put a bit of lift on it or a bit of a chord or base...dunno if this will help but I think it worked for me, I don't care how shite I am any more I just belt into it!
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by anniejryan
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
i mean padraig not liam
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by anniejryan
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Danny, I think we're talking about different levels of technique here. Yes, you have to be able to play your instrument. But a fiddler doesn't have to be Paganini to pull off the Concertina Reel.
To get nyah on a fiddle takes good bow control, something that doesn't come easily to most people. But it's the most basic of bow control I'm talking about here, not the pyrotechnics of a virtuoso. Yes, Padraig and the rest of us have to woodshed for some years to get that feel, but all the woodshedding in the world--and the 'best technique'--won't give you the nyah. For that, you have to soak yourself in nyah-filled music.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
OK, then, there's technique, then there's *technique*.
:~}
BTW. the same applies to the flute whistle or box.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Jayz, Michael, I wish the music was as easy as you make it out to be. Maybe you're just blessed with more innate talent than I've been born with, but I can guarantee you that there's a power of people on this site and elsewhere who sweat buckets over their music. And rightly so! I would wager that the vast majority of us believe ourselves to be at some point on a learning curve and that even the best players don't feel that they can say that they've completed their musical journey.
Your suggestion that someone leaves their playing aside for a few months might work for you, but it won't work for everyone. In any event, for me, playing is not an option; it's at the core of who I am. Not to play would leave a vacuum in my life. I *could* simply listen to music, but what would be the point? Being a spectator doesn't press my buttons.
How I've dealt with yer man's comments is to have a wee think about what "it" is and to acknowledge that his "it" may very well be different to my "it". And as long as I know what my "it" is (and there are hundreds of "its") and I'm making progress towards my "it", then that's all that matters.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Aidan, there's a difference between the kind of listening I'm (and I think Michael) talking about and "being a spectator." I'm talking about listening deeply and repeatedly to the tunes till you can play them in exquisite detail in your head, with nyah. That's a very active, participatory thing--nothing passive about it. I'd go so far as to say playing with nyah is similar to playing the tunes at all--you can't do it unless you really get it in your head first.
Padraig may need to take a break from actually playing the fiddle (though I'm guessing it might need to be only a week) so his physical habits don't get in the way of absorbing the nyah. I know that when I've tried to alter my approach to the music, I start out with clear intentions and end up sounding like I always have. It can be hard enough to really hear the nuances that make the difference, let alone hear *and* physically replicate them all at once. Sometimes you have to get away from whatever stage your fingers and bow arm are at to leap your mind to another level, and then go back and drag your fingers and bow arm along.
What's interesting to me is, once you have the nyah, how easily it transers to new tunes and even new instruments. My sense of timing and phrasing and nyah carried over from fiddle to flute as soon as I could fill the damn thing without passing out. Nearly two years later, my embouchure still sucks, and my cuts, taps, and rolls have a long way to go, but I quickly understood how to lean on the notes with my breath and airstream to play the few tunes I know on flute with lift enough to coax dancers onto their feet. In short, once you've got the nyah it'll come out in your playing, even without technical proficiency.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Perhaps it's such a basic point that no one else is bothering to mention it, but playing in sessions is very deluding! One can be rattling along, having a hell of a time, but if there were pickups on the instrument so you could hear just yourself later..... Playing alone, (by the fireside if necessary to make it more traditional,) and listening fiercely and critically is crucial. There may be a few God-given talents around, but to my mind, it's the power to listen that makes people good, whether or not they know that! Recording oneself is a terrific tool as well. It can't be "traditional" but it's amazing how fast it makes a difference.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by TomB-R
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Does anyone find that they have more nyah in their head than in the music that comes out? There are arguments for listening deeply and getting the music inside you. I totally agree with that and with the idea that your ear is the primary tool for learning this music.
I also agree that recording yourself is an excellent tool, and it can really teach you something about how you sound. Sometimes, your mind, your inner ear can make you sound like it wants you to sound. So that if you never record yourself, you may never "hear" how you truly sound to others.
For instance, I thought of myself internally as a pretty smooth player (more Sligo than Donegal). Upon recording myself, I found that was not true. That allowed me to approach tunes a little bit differently, moving my sound closer to how I think about the music.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Jode
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
I'm tone deaf -- so none of this matters to me.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
I can't get a hair cut -- this look was asigned to me by the witness protection program.
# Posted on October 5th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
In answer to Jode, who asked "Does anyone find they have more nyah in their head than in the music that comes out"
Oh yeah.......recording oneself is entirely revealing. I'll be playing something into that minidisc, and I think I'm getting this languid Clare feel to it, and I listen and it sounds RUSHED! Phoo!
Recording oneself is a very good idea. Takes a lot of nerve, but it might be the only way to really know what's going on.
# Posted on October 5th 2004 by bogeyman
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Recording IS scary, Kate! I only took up the fiddle a few months ago...and recorded myself attempting to play a couple weeks ago...came very near close to tossing the darn thing in the trash and retreating to my trusty whistle (I have since picked it back up...decided not to record for at least anothher month or more!)...which is not so scary to listen to as that fiddle...last time I recorded myself, I found a few things I was doing wrong, which prompted some heavyduty listening to top-notch flute and whistle players, and thus a large change for the better in my playing. So recording...good...and bad...but always honest.
# Posted on October 5th 2004 by Crysania
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
There are a few points raised, I'll try to respond:
1. Diddley music is the least technically demanding and the most musically demanding (by that I meen feel) of any music I know of. That's why I like it. You can be really very good at it and yet not have to practice.
2. Don't bother asking someone you know how good your playing is. They'll be nice to you. Trust a stranger (drunk or not).
OR
Don't care. It's much esier and you'll have more fun (which will make you a better player in the long run anyway).
3. There is nothing passive about singing tunes. Sing tunes in sessions, it's great, and really adds to the overall sound. If you think you are one of those people who have "it" in their head, but not on their instrument, put the instrument down and sing.
4. Away with the "record your self" nonsence. It's just naval gazing. What you may get out of it in technique will be more than off set by the inducement of paranoia. OR, if you like what you hear, what you get out of it will just be arrogance. What's worse, arrogance or paranoia? Neither have a place in music.
5. I've noticed that some people on this site tend to beat thmselves up about the learning curve thing, how steep it is, where they are on it etc.
Try to think of it as more of a circle in zero gravity, with no start, top, bottom, steeper bits etc. You climb on the wheel and round you go. Constantly learning, but with no end. Passing youself many times. You might speed up a bit or slow down, but that doesn't matter 'cause there is no goal at the end of it, just being on is enough. And sharing it with others. .
# Posted on October 5th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
How to find Nyah:
http://www.travelmate.com.au/Places/Places.asp?TownName=Nyah_%5C_VIC
# Posted on October 5th 2004 by Bren
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Isn't naval gazing something you do with binoculars?
# Posted on October 5th 2004 by TomB-R
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Michael's right.
It's naval gazing - "I see no ships - only hardships"
which kind of sums up the approach of some people who post on this site.
Often Mr Gill says something along the lines of "stop worrying and just get on and play". And as more time goes by, I increasingly subscribe to that view myself.
# Posted on October 5th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Disagree with point 4...recording yourself is a useful tool. It won't make you go blind, or in itself make you paranoid or arrogant.
I am saying it is a good touchpoint, not a primary focus. Try it maybe once a year, or once every three years, just to see what you sound like to other people. Just to see if what you think you sound like, is really what you sound like.
Perhaps Michael is right in one sense. If it is going to stress you out and make you overly self conscious, then don't do it. But if it helps you to improve your sound, and it makes you happier, then do it.
# Posted on October 5th 2004 by Jode
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Have been playing for just over a year and have taken alot from this site to heart. However have just about got to the stage where I am falling of my curve and hoping to land in Michael's circle. Its just not that easy - its so tempting to think that the harder I practice this bit or that bit the quicker I'll get to the end of the road, and maybe this particular written piece of advice will cut this particular corner.
I actually used to spend more time looking for the secrets of playing here than actually playing! And the erudite but occasionaly spiky Mr Gill used to get my goat - how can he be so cynical and hard nosed about the music etc.
But I think I understand it know, its not about learning to play, its about playing. As time goes by I will improve, but its crazy not to enjoy time spent playing just because you think you arn't learning quickly. Just play.
lost count how many times I have pressed delete and typed stuff over again. I'm not good at expressing myself and allways need 10 minutes to say 2 minutes worth of stuff. I just wanted to say to the rest of us lurking begginers - don't worry, stop stressing, take the big chill pill. The learning never stops so just play.
# Posted on October 6th 2004 by clunk999
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Singing the tunes is great idea and is something I do myself. However, I'm not sure that it would be welcome in a session situation. Would it? Is it more tolerable than drums, recorders, ocarinas, washboards etc?
As for recording, I'm not totally convinced. You are not playing naturally and are aware of the microphone. Sometimes, you're likely to make even more mistakes. However, as Dave says, it's all right to do on very rare occasions just to see if you have actually improved.
# Posted on October 6th 2004 by John J.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Get a copy of the Amazing Slow downer and a copy of a cd you really like and try and copy your favourite tunes dot for dot. Try and copy their style as much as you can. If your just starting this is fine cause it is like having a lesson with a professional! Movement can also help you to connect with a tune. If your enjoying playing other people will be-able to see that!
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by M0nty10
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Oohhh, I think that's bad advice. All you get from slowing tunes down is the ability to get all the notes in the right order. But, as we know, this is not a high priority in diddly music (see variations and versions, extensively discussed). A higher priority is the feel of the music, and the topic of this discussion. Electronically slowing down a recording totally destroys the feel.
And why should movement connect you with a tune. If you're playing it wrong to start with, your movement will only accentuate this. n
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Getting the notes in the right order is the first step, all the rest comes later. You can`t run before you can walk.
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by murfbox
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
But getting the feel of the music is the first step down the right path. If you've not got the feel, you may be running away quite happily, but down the wrong path. And it's hard to jump accross that grassy verge on to the right path when you're speeding along.
This is why I advocate listening. Disecting stuff by slowing it down is not listening. You can't get the feel for this music by analysing it.
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
You don't need to slow it down that much, though. I don't see the benefit of listening to it at half speed or even less. It sounds too different to be of that much help. However, about 80% (or slightly more or less) is fine and can be very helpful when listening to really fast players. And, as you mentioned once before, you can use the same software to speed Martin Hayes up.
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by John J.
Re: Yes, me again, with more annoying pleadings for help. :D
Michael, you`re right as regards getting the feel of the music. You so often hear musicians playing all the notes of a tune, in the right sequence, but it`s barely recognisable because there`s no feel for the tune, or for the music in general.
That feel for the music can only be got by hours and hours of listening. For anybody on the learning curve - which means all of us - I think the listening/practice ratio should be something like 60/40.
I always learn tunes, from tapes or CDs, at normal playing speed. I don`t read music so it all has to be done by ear. It takes time and patience, but at some stage I`ve got to check and make sure I`m playing the notes in the right order. Once I`ve got that sorted out, then I can concentrate on putting a bit of swing into it.
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by murfbox