Hi there everybody, new to the site and relatively new to whistling. I am a professional Classical flute player/jazz player desperate to play irish music. Does anyone have suggestions of a number of tunes that would be best to start off with? Would really appreciate some guidance.
All the best,
Angus
Angus, first thing is to realize that you must NOT learn by using sheet music. Learn from other musicians and recordings as much as you can, and start with recordings of very traditional players (rather than the more modern mixes, like Lunasa or Mike McGoldrick or whatever -- it's not that these are not good players, they're fantastic, but you should learn the basics first before getting the music all gussied up).
Irish music is an aural tradition. Learning to learn by ear is a big part of it; I have to say that I date the time I started playing Irish music from when I learned to start learning the way the Irish have passed on their music as long as anyone can remember -- I played off music for two years before that, and it was desperate stuff. I'm still developing my sound and feel, and have been for ages. I'm ecstatic at the moment with where I am, it's starting to pay off now, thank God! (But give it a few weeks, I'm sure I'll have more "throw the fiddle into the traffic" moments ahead of me.)
Largely, Irish music is mainly attitude, not the dots on the page, and you can't play it well if you don't have the feel down. Classical players have the hardest time with this when they try learning Irish traditional music (ITM) by dots -- a lot of players call it being paper-trained. Feel is the important thing -- repeat this mantra ten times every day. Every hour. The whole time you're playing!
Stick with eight or ten tunes for a bit -- up to your first eight months to a year. You'll be sick of them after a while, but when everyone tells you you have those ten tunes down marvelously in feel, then you'll know you can use what you've learned with those tunes on every other tune you learn from there on out.
Plan on being a beginner for at least two years (since you're already familiar with the instrument in a musicianly sense -- usually it's three to five, and Kevin Glackin says that someone might begin to approach full control and mastery after ten years or more). If you're patient with yourself and understand that you won't be even aware of how much a beginner you are (beware the period where you think you're pretty good! Every great player I know thinks they're still a beginner), you'll progress a lot faster even though the initial learning period seems endless sometimes.
Play the music slow -- slower than you think you need to -- for weeks, months. Listen to Martin Hayes play slowly to understand that slow doesn't have to mean boring. You probably understand this already from being a classical player, but it's especially important in ITM.
As for actual tunes, archived in the messages in a couple of different threads, Will Harmon has written in several long tune lists with suggestions for first tunes to learn. I highly suggest finding simple, repetitive tunes like Jackie Coleman's and Silver Spear for your first tunes, because they allow you to learn them quickly and work on the feel more than speed and notes.
You'll find that the folks here at The Session are extremely friendly and helpful. Use this as a resource. It's a great one, I've learned so much from players here.
You might check out the webpage of the slow session that Dirk and I run here in Colorado -- http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/ We have several tunes up with MP3s at learning speed (more or less) along with advice on how to learn to learn by ear.
Good luck, Angus, and let us know how it's going! Join in here, it's one of the friendliest sessions you'll ever find.
I'm a part-time professional flute player, classical/jazz like you.
For me, the first thing that really made a difference, the first time i was able to play Irish music and feel i was doing it the right way, was after reading *everything* in Brother Steve's site: http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/
After that, what's making an even larger difference, is taking lessons with a "live" teacher. In between, the stuff from Scoiltrad also helped. I'd recommend you email Conal and ask him for suggestions, but you probably want to start with a beginners' lesson (they're hard enough, believe me...).
Then, all that's left is practice... Also, learn a few Irish words and show off.
As long as you realize the limitation that sheet music has in reference to Irish music there is nothing wrong with using it. I agree that it is mandatory to listen to live and recorded music and get the feel of the music. Sheet music of Irish tunes must be looked on as a bare outline. Once you learn where the ornaments go on your instrument and what style you prefer you can then put back into the sheet music what gives the tune life. It is helpful to be able to read music as well as play by ear.
The other comment I would make is that learning by ear doesn't just mean picking tunes up as played by some band a mile a minute on their recording. Leaning by ear also involves sitting down with another player, having them play a phrase for you at a more moderate tempo, and then having you repeat the phrase until you learn it.
To recapitulate one of glauber's suggestions, but with more emphasis: by all means do everything you can to find yourself a real, live teacher. a teacher will get you going on the technical mastery of the music, but also thoroughly inculcate you in the tradition, especially in whatever is going on in your own back yard. The second best thing would be to go to some irish music festivals/workshops where you can get some real live lessons. I haven't tried any online lessons, but from what i've read in various discussion threads here, they sound like something worth investigating too.
As another new session member and 2 years new to ITM, this discussion has been a great help to me. Thanks for the links, advice, and thoughts.
Zina, your comments were in all honesty very helpful. I am not sure sometimes if it is me, my lack of skill & ability or the need keep pushing on. So knowing I should still be a beginner was encouraging. BTW, great web site.
A related question, I am a hammer dulcimer player, up until 4 years ago I never played an instrument or read music, now am trying to do both. How are HDs viewed in sessions? Assuming appropriate behavior and etiquette. I don't think I'll live long enough to play fiddle - so I will try to play the HD well and in the tradition.
The Mountain Dulcimer is an Appalachian instrument, for sure. I don't know about the hammer dulcimer. There's an entry in "The Companion to Irish Traditional Music" about hammer dulcimers and it says it's associated with the northeast of Ireland. I've played with a hammer dulcimer player several times in sessions and it's almost impossible to hear. Especially in a noisy pub. Can they be made louder by using heavier or different kinds of "hammers", K.J.?
I have a hammer dulcimer and have played it at a few sessions. The reactions were favorable. A few players voiced that they really liked it, because it is not as common to hear, and it introduced a new sound/texture/element to the music. I didn't hear anything negative at the sessions, however as a result of comments I have heard other times about the instruments characteristics, I suspect there are some players who may not care for it. (at a session). I assume it is because the notes ring long and the instrument is not considered traditional. I like it in moderation, the same as the other instruments. Less is more, and leave 'em wanting more.
I am *not* one of the purists who shudders at the thought of the anathema of a hammer dulcimer player in a session -- but I have to say, I don't personally really like it when the player is one who lets the strings ring a whole lot. To me it muddies up the tune too much. But that's probably just me. And I *have* played with HD players who I thought were great in a session. Another player I know dislikes that the HDs are so percussive, and prefers the mountain dulcimers, but again mentioned that it's hard to hear them in a session.
Glad I could help, KJ -- don't give up on the fiddle! Keep it up. Its also a rewarding instrument, as well as being an aggravating one.
Hammered dulcimers are capable of producing a "wall of sound" that can muddy up a session. The HD players I've been around usually end up using padded or soft hammers for ensemble playing. This quiets the instrument and also seems to shorten the sustain a bit. When it's just me on fiddle with an HD, I like the hard hammers--then that wall effect is welcome. Some HD's also come with a damper similar to the pedal damper on pianos.
Also, our two local HD players are good listeners and seem to know when to back off or stop altogether for a bit of pure drop lead instruments.
From what I've learned, the HD is not exclusively an American Appalachian instrument as the mountain dulcimer is. As I understand it, many cultures have fundementally similar instruments. Although, I realize it is not a traditional Irish instrument. Derek Bell of the Chieftians often plays the tiopam - which is a HD.
I have heard good HD players refer to the "wall of sound" Will mentions and it takes experience to use that properly I think.
As is often suggested in these session discussions, I have listened to Martin Hayes (over and over) and try to use/duplicate much of the style and feel in his playing. Some works for me on the HD, some you need to do things differently. A breakthrough came for me learning to play Paddy Fahey's by listening to it on Lonesome Touch. Highlighting the chord changes and really backing off in between can give the effect Will mentions - at least I think it works
I find the comments about not hearing them at a session interesting. I would have suspected the opposite.
Thanks again for the encouagement and allowing the beginners to join these discussions.
KJ, it IS interesting that hammered dulcimers sometimes aren't heard over the din at a session. In ours, we've noticed this and have tweaked the arrangement of our chairs and who sits where to "manage" the HD.
Our circle forms in one corner of a 20 by 30 foot room with fairly high ceilings. If the HD is on the edge of the cirlce closest to the middle of the room, none of us can hear him. His HD is on a stand, slanted back at about a 25 degree angle, so the sound bounces back at the player and behind him, not "forward" to the center of the circle. If he sits along the wall, however, the HD sound hits the wall and rains down on the entire group, giving new meaning to the "wall" of sound metaphor.
What seems to work best in our situation is if he sits one or two chairs around the top of the circle where it arcs away from the wall. This way, we can hear him, but he doesn't flood us with sound.
It's an odd thing there that you mention, KJ. The most experienced players will tell you over and over and over again that it's not necessary to be able to play quickly, at a breakneck pace. (Although of course many of them enjoy doing exactly that, but they can do it with great feel, so they're entitled!) They all tend to cite Martin Hayes as the guy you should listen to to prove their point, probably because his recordings are so widely available. (It's no wonder so many people play East Clare style these days!)
Some of them will go on quite a lengthy tirade about how sessions these days play the music just too darn fast and it's almost impossible to enjoy the tune itself that fast -- Mike Dugger and Glen Road were in town not too long ago, and this is one of Mike's pet peeves. Mike prefers a moderate pace that allows more players to join in playing well and that really lets the tune shine on its own.
And yet, over and over and over (here in the States, anyway, I dunno about elsewhere), you'll find sessions with mid-level players playing way too fast for their own abilities, losing the feel and trying for as much flash as possible -- they can play at that speed, yes, but the feel is lacking. It took me three years to start educating my ear, but I'm finally starting to hear what all my role models have been telling me all along -- there's such a thing as playing too fast for the tune.
My point of puzzlement being: if everyone we all look up to tends to tell everyone to slow down, work on feel, think about the tune rather than the speed, why don't we all do it?
And, KJ, the whole point of a session is that everyone is part and parcel of the thing. We don't "allow" beginners to join in round these parts -- good Lord, most of us at the very least consider ourselves beginners, and some of us noisy ones really are -- I'm a beginner, myself. My own teachers used to say that a good musician can learn something from another musician, regardless of the level, and I have found this to be absolutely true. So speak up!
Bluegrass suffers from the same ailment, Zina. Intermediates often play
way past their ability to make nice music. That is the point - to make nice music, right?
As amateurs, we sometimes lack the true understanding of what makes the music good.
We hear the speed of the best professionals and think, "Ahh, Irish music is about speed."
Its rather like the story of the blind men who base their understanding of an elephant based on
the part they are touching. When we move past the beginner stage and learn to play at higher
tempos, we do because we can. We may have very little to offer a tune other than speed. Let's
face it, speed is exhilerating and fun. Many of us were first attracted to ITM because of the
exciting tempos of a jig or reel.
A seasoned master on the other hand, draws on a wealth of experience and a wide array of
techniques to "treat" the tune. I do agree that some tunes seem to "want" certain tempos
while others can be played successfully at a variety of speeds with good effect.
All this IMHO and from a beginner/outsider.
Surely nice music and good music are one and the same.....if you play past your ability, then I don't think that you can play nice music. I've said on numerous occasions that I'm more comfortable playing slow airs than reels...as I play slow tunes nicely (good is a matter of opinion for others), but I play fast tunes horrendously, as they are beyond my present ability.
I love your analogy about the elephant by the way ...does he play the fiddle??
I read something once that helped me understand the idea of playing speed better it went something like:
When you get to the point you are thinking more about the space/time between the notes than in playing the next note, you are beginning to make progress.
The more I thought about it, the more I thought about speed and it seemed to slow me down and away from that anxiety to play fast - beyond my ability.
Hey all, would you mind doing me a favor and give me some feedback? Check out http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/learn.html and let me know what you think? I'm looking for anything that I might have left out, anything that should should have been left out, whatever. This includes beginners; I need to know if this info is helpful, or repetitive, or boring, not really useful, or what have you, for people just starting to learn.
Zina, I've been waiting for you to put that section up on your website. Well done! I don't think you need to change a thing, but I'll toss out some ideas anyway.
First, it might help to mention that other beginners are good sources to learn aurally from. If they know a credible, playable version of a tune, many beginners are very willing to play it slowly (partly because they can't play it fast over and over again.
Second, I find that it really helps if the player who's teaching the tune says what note they're starting on. If you're having a hard time picking up anything at all, ask them to give you just the first note. When I teach a tune, I usually start by saying what key and mode it's in, and what the first note is (e.g., "We're doing Jackie Coleman's, in D major. It starts with an A on the open second string. Then it goes right to a triplet on the F sharp, 3rd string."). I also go back after they've got the tune and explain what the options are for the "pick up" notes you might play before actually starting the tune.
Third, learning by ear depends a lot on knowing where the notes you're hearing are found on your instrument. Someone totally new to an instrument probably needs a basic introduction to scales and half- and whole-step intervals before they can begin to learn tunes by ear. Even intermediate players will struggle mightily if they try to learn a tune by ear in a key they've never played in before.
Finally, as someone who's learned mainly by ear for 20 years, I can vouch that it does get easier the more you do it. But even the best aural learners get stumped now and then (usually on some simple 4-note sequence that just doesn't click). After you've played this music long enough, you'll start giving yourself the excuse that some tunes are "counter-intuitive"--the notes don't go where you'd expect them to. And that's okay. Part of what keeps me playing Irish music is it's infinite variety. If I could figure out every tune the first go round, I'd be bored. Just persevere and be patient with yourself.
Good points, Will! Hmmm...let me see, how to get that all in there...? Lemme play with it a bit, and then go back and look and tell me if I got it right, will you?
Well now *that's* embarrassing!
Zina, I like your piece on how to teach a tune, too. All this should be very helpful for everyone, not just beginners or newcomers to the aural tradition. Mind if I send all my slow session mates to your site?
Zina, I asked Jeremy about this 'posting twice' thing last week.
He told me I've had probably pressed the BACK button of the browser instead of using the back function of the web site.
Your "learning tunes by ear " document is great. I have a few editing
comments (nit-picking) , and one of the links is broken - should I
send the info to you or to the technical guy listed at the bottom of
the page? One other comment, for me, singing a tune is a big help to
learning it - well not really singing, more like dum-dum-duming it, or
is that scree-scree-screeching it? Anyway, you do mention singing a
tune at the end of the document, but it might be nice if you could
talk about how singing the phrases can help with learning a tune up in
the 'how to learn tunes by ear' section. "If you can sing a tune, you
can play a tune" is something I've heard a lot and have found to be
true (thank goodness it doesn't matter how bad it sounds as long as
you can tell what the notes are). Also, would you mind if I gave
copies of the doc to the people in a slow session I go to? We moan
about how hard it is to learn a tune by ear everytime we get together,
it would be good to do something other than just moan about it *snort*
(just had to throw that in, I've been wanting to snort online since
seeing Zina do it :^). I'll point them to the web site of course, but
some of them don't have network access.
Speaking of the slow session I go to, I've been meaning to ask y'all
for some advice. The session came about because a few of us were
invited to learn and play a couple tunes for a contra dance with some
people who occasionally play locally. One of them kindly taught us the
tunes (all by ear), and it was such fun that, after the dance, we (the
beginners) wanted to continue. Initially, we were going to get
together to play the tunes we had learned, but it quickly moved on to
playing new ones (for myself, I'm happy to play one tune for weeks,
over and over, but I'm considered rather odd by the others). In any
case, we did know those first tunes pretty well. Unfortunately, the
person who first taught us wasn't able to continue and we haven't
found anyone else who was willing to take over. That means we don't
have anyone beyond beginner level in the group, so how can we learn
how to play better? Oh, not stuff like how to play a violin, but
things like how to make a jig sound like a jig - yup, still obsessing
on that. I worry that we might be making things worse, sharing bad
habits and stomping out any good ones - you know, 6 out of 7 have a
bad habit and the one who didn't have it ends up getting it, peer
pressure and lowest common denominator always win ;). It doesn't help
that we are playing the new tunes strictly from sheet music (after
reading all the discussions here, it is obvious that this is a bad
thing). I've been pushing recordings on the others everytime we meet,
and usually play tunes off CDs at each session. However, while
listening to someone of Kevin Burke's caliber playing a tune is
wonderful and helpful for learning to hear the phrasing and rhythms of
ITM, it's not like a group of beginners could figure out how to play a
jig from it, at least not this beginner!
So, I was thinking. I am probably the best ITM player in the bunch,
certainly the most obsessed and driven anyway, and have the most
experience with ITM workshops and clinics. Maybe I could use Zina's
"How to teach a tune" comments and my recordings from the workshops
(of the teachers playing the tunes they taught at different speeds -
from really slow to normal) to teach some tunes to the group. I could
help with getting the notes and then we could use the recordings to
work on getting the feel of the music. What do you think, is this a
ridiculous idea? Would it be presumptious of me to suggest it to the
group? I like playing with the others, it's fun, we have a good time,
and there really isn't anybody else to play with locally. So, maybe I
should just relax and enjoy and not worry about whether or not we are
improving. It is rather an american thing that we always want to be
working toward a goal, isn't it? Puritan work ethic and all. I was
sitting in a pub in Ireland once, writing letters, when a couple of
locals came up and said I must be an American because I was working so
industriously on such a lovely evening . They then proceeded to
show me just how much fun could be had of an evening, and lord, those
fellas sure knew how to have fun!
Well, if it's the BASS link (or any of the other slowplayer.org websites) that's the broken one, send that to Mike Duffy, as I don't know why it's not there -- maybe somebody didn't ante up in time or something for the domain name. Any other broken links are my fault, not Mike's!
And feel free to send me the editing notes. There's some mistakes in there that I DO know about, and keep meaning to get round to them, but have been too busy to do it.
Also feel free to do whatever you like with the learning by ear stuff. It's not like we have a corner on any of that info, yeah? *snort* (I was going to laugh, but decided that the snorting certainly seems to be entertaining to so many of you... *grin*)
Well, I wrote this very long winded reply (yes, even longer than what's here now), and then decided that it was just too long and chucked it all. What I was saying was that changing a session into a learning session should be done with the full agreement of everyone in the session, so you might want to ask each person privately (so no one feels under pressure to say something they don't really feel) how they'd feel about it.
A session is about having fun with friends, not necessarily learning your craft. Just the act of playing will help you to improve in one way or another.
I had an hour long conversation with Kevin Burke on Monday. What a lovely man he is. He said some very interesting things that I couldn't follow up on, being on the job, but would have loved to.
One of the things he said that struck me was that he feels that the music is there all the time, always there, and that he simply taps into it when he plays. He doesn't have to think about it or do anything to it, it plays itself through him, basically.
It's only utter familiarity with the stuff and with your instrument and with your craft that lets you do this, I think. It's why listening is actually practising in Irish music.
To me, improving your feel is something you do on your own time. Listening to recordings, learning from better players -- that's all for you. A session is getting together with friends for some great crack and, oh, incidentally, we all make music together! Before you change that on the others in your session, make sure that's what they all want.
Nothing wrong with learning sessions, of course. I run one myself along with Dirk. We learn and teach tunes, though -- we're all beginners, we don't teach each other the feel except by example, so people can learn feel on their own time and what of each other's they choose to take for their own. Everyone has to decide for themselves what kind of musician to be.
If you want to learn tunes, learning off of sheet music isn't a hanging offense, no matter what the dots snobs say. But it's just harder to learn feel that way, and it's much harder to learn on the fly if you don't practise in a slow session.
Try asking everyone to learn one tune by ear from a recording (like your ones from workshops) and bring it to the group to teach to the others, no sheet music allowed. There's nothing wrong with someone saying something like, "Kevin Burke said you should try THIS on a phrase like this..." either. After a couple of months of working on those tunes, compare playing them to the feel of what you learned off the dots. If the feel is pretty much the same on all of them, what the hell. Learn off the dots in that case.
Zina,
Thanks for the comments, thoughtful and insightful as usual. Everytime I read your posts I realize that I need to relax, take it easy, and not push so hard. Yes, "mellow out, mellow out" shall be my mantra - darn it, I'm going to relax if it kills me, he, he, he. Ok, check with people privately about the learning session vs regular session, if people react negatively, drop it, if they seem interested
suggest that anyone who wants to, learn a tune by ear from a recording and then teach it to the rest of us, got it. One other player has indicated to me offline that he would like to see us do more learning, but then he is closer to my level of obsession than anyone else. Also, he and I have been keeping the session going and are sort of de facto session leaders - so we obviously are more intense. I can balance out the playing from sheet music (I agree, that isn't a hanging offense, but it is so much easier than learning by ear that unless I force myself, I would never do anything but!) with more discipline at home.
As for Kevin Burke's comment, you can hear it in his playing - a sort of becoming one with the music, very magical (no doubt, the result of years and years of focused effort). But as you said, it takes utter familiarity with the music, your instrument, and everything else - that doesn't come easy. Something to strive for. You know Zina, I envy you - getting to talk to and know so many wonderful muscians!
Off to the session, mellow out, mellow out, mellllooowww out - got it
Here's some chestnuts I've picked up over my experience with ITM.
1. Write the tunes out as you learn them, it helps as a reference.
2. "I've learned more from the insults of *** then I learned from anyone else's nice comments." I'm not going to fill in who said that or about whom for obvious reasons. This one is harsh but there is a lot to be learned from it. Sometimes a player might come across mean, but it's for both your sake & the sake of the tunes. At the time it might hurt you but in years to come you'll usually agree with what was barked at you.
3. Play with better players as often as you can. It raises your own bar & you'll pick up all sorts of things.
4. Play all the time. - not an easy thing for most of us with lives, but the more you play the better you get.
5. "Play it with swing"
6. "I don't need to go to the arctic to know that it's cold" - an old timers warning about too much drink & the results. I'm still working on that one as I visit the arctic way too often.
7. "Go home & practice" - Skip Healy. Meant as a sort of ballbusting encouragement than a hateful addage. Ties into the "Play all the time " tidbit. Translation - don't go to a session alone to work on your chops, try to give it at least a couple minutes a day.
8. Dig up the old stuff & learn to get over the rough 78rpm record sound. That's where all the Molloy's, Burkes, Keenan's learned their tunes, it's traditional music - therefore we as wet kittens should have respect for the old masters.
9. Listen to solo recordings of your chosen instrument, bands are great but the instruments don't always get a clear enough voice to let you really pick up on the subtle stuff.
10. Have fun, there's nothing like good craic. When the tunes swings, the pints flow & the crowd hoots that's what it's all about.
To quote Mel Brooks "The History of the World"...
"I bring you the 15, (drop, smash) 10!! 10 commandments!!"
~b
I have to agree that pain usually brings more growth than pleasure, Brad -- at least, it's proved so all my life!
Sort of like change -- somebody on one of my other lists was saying that there's only three final reactions to irrevocable change: change to adapt (or is that, adapt to change?), leave in order to stay the same, or die. I found that very interesting, given some of the things going on in my life right now. *grin*
New and help!!?!?!?!?
New and help!!?!?!?!?
Hi there everybody, new to the site and relatively new to whistling. I am a professional Classical flute player/jazz player desperate to play irish music. Does anyone have suggestions of a number of tunes that would be best to start off with? Would really appreciate some guidance.
All the best,
Angus
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by mcangus23
Start with feel and attitude, not tunes!
Angus, first thing is to realize that you must NOT learn by using sheet music. Learn from other musicians and recordings as much as you can, and start with recordings of very traditional players (rather than the more modern mixes, like Lunasa or Mike McGoldrick or whatever -- it's not that these are not good players, they're fantastic, but you should learn the basics first before getting the music all gussied up).
Irish music is an aural tradition. Learning to learn by ear is a big part of it; I have to say that I date the time I started playing Irish music from when I learned to start learning the way the Irish have passed on their music as long as anyone can remember -- I played off music for two years before that, and it was desperate stuff. I'm still developing my sound and feel, and have been for ages. I'm ecstatic at the moment with where I am, it's starting to pay off now, thank God! (But give it a few weeks, I'm sure I'll have more "throw the fiddle into the traffic" moments ahead of me.)
Largely, Irish music is mainly attitude, not the dots on the page, and you can't play it well if you don't have the feel down. Classical players have the hardest time with this when they try learning Irish traditional music (ITM) by dots -- a lot of players call it being paper-trained. Feel is the important thing -- repeat this mantra ten times every day. Every hour. The whole time you're playing!
Stick with eight or ten tunes for a bit -- up to your first eight months to a year. You'll be sick of them after a while, but when everyone tells you you have those ten tunes down marvelously in feel, then you'll know you can use what you've learned with those tunes on every other tune you learn from there on out.
Plan on being a beginner for at least two years (since you're already familiar with the instrument in a musicianly sense -- usually it's three to five, and Kevin Glackin says that someone might begin to approach full control and mastery after ten years or more). If you're patient with yourself and understand that you won't be even aware of how much a beginner you are (beware the period where you think you're pretty good! Every great player I know thinks they're still a beginner), you'll progress a lot faster even though the initial learning period seems endless sometimes.
Play the music slow -- slower than you think you need to -- for weeks, months. Listen to Martin Hayes play slowly to understand that slow doesn't have to mean boring. You probably understand this already from being a classical player, but it's especially important in ITM.
As for actual tunes, archived in the messages in a couple of different threads, Will Harmon has written in several long tune lists with suggestions for first tunes to learn. I highly suggest finding simple, repetitive tunes like Jackie Coleman's and Silver Spear for your first tunes, because they allow you to learn them quickly and work on the feel more than speed and notes.
You'll find that the folks here at The Session are extremely friendly and helpful. Use this as a resource. It's a great one, I've learned so much from players here.
You might check out the webpage of the slow session that Dirk and I run here in Colorado -- http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/ We have several tunes up with MP3s at learning speed (more or less) along with advice on how to learn to learn by ear.
Good luck, Angus, and let us know how it's going! Join in here, it's one of the friendliest sessions you'll ever find.
Zina
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
P.S.
And take some lessons from Conal O'Grada at Scoiltrad! http://www.scoiltrad.com. You can't go wrong there.
zls
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Where are you located, Angus?
I'm a part-time professional flute player, classical/jazz like you.
For me, the first thing that really made a difference, the first time i was able to play Irish music and feel i was doing it the right way, was after reading *everything* in Brother Steve's site:
http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/
After that, what's making an even larger difference, is taking lessons with a "live" teacher. In between, the stuff from Scoiltrad also helped. I'd recommend you email Conal and ask him for suggestions, but you probably want to start with a beginners' lesson (they're hard enough, believe me...).
Then, all that's left is practice... Also, learn a few Irish words and show off.
g
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by glauber
Brother Steve
I know, it's a whistle site. No matter, it's still the best for flute players too.
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by glauber
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
As long as you realize the limitation that sheet music has in reference to Irish music there is nothing wrong with using it. I agree that it is mandatory to listen to live and recorded music and get the feel of the music. Sheet music of Irish tunes must be looked on as a bare outline. Once you learn where the ornaments go on your instrument and what style you prefer you can then put back into the sheet music what gives the tune life. It is helpful to be able to read music as well as play by ear.
The other comment I would make is that learning by ear doesn't just mean picking tunes up as played by some band a mile a minute on their recording. Leaning by ear also involves sitting down with another player, having them play a phrase for you at a more moderate tempo, and then having you repeat the phrase until you learn it.
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by radriano
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
To recapitulate one of glauber's suggestions, but with more emphasis: by all means do everything you can to find yourself a real, live teacher. a teacher will get you going on the technical mastery of the music, but also thoroughly inculcate you in the tradition, especially in whatever is going on in your own back yard. The second best thing would be to go to some irish music festivals/workshops where you can get some real live lessons. I haven't tried any online lessons, but from what i've read in various discussion threads here, they sound like something worth investigating too.
good luck and welcome to the fold!
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Brendan
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
As another new session member and 2 years new to ITM, this discussion has been a great help to me. Thanks for the links, advice, and thoughts.
Zina, your comments were in all honesty very helpful. I am not sure sometimes if it is me, my lack of skill & ability or the need keep pushing on. So knowing I should still be a beginner was encouraging. BTW, great web site.
A related question, I am a hammer dulcimer player, up until 4 years ago I never played an instrument or read music, now am trying to do both. How are HDs viewed in sessions? Assuming appropriate behavior and etiquette. I don't think I'll live long enough to play fiddle - so I will try to play the HD well and in the tradition.
Thanks, kj ryan
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by kjryan
Hammer Dulcimer
It's more of an Appalachian instrument, no?
Anyway, i doubt they can be loud enough to become annoying, so you're probably ok; try it and find out.
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by glauber
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
The Mountain Dulcimer is an Appalachian instrument, for sure. I don't know about the hammer dulcimer. There's an entry in "The Companion to Irish Traditional Music" about hammer dulcimers and it says it's associated with the northeast of Ireland. I've played with a hammer dulcimer player several times in sessions and it's almost impossible to hear. Especially in a noisy pub. Can they be made louder by using heavier or different kinds of "hammers", K.J.?
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
I have a hammer dulcimer and have played it at a few sessions. The reactions were favorable. A few players voiced that they really liked it, because it is not as common to hear, and it introduced a new sound/texture/element to the music. I didn't hear anything negative at the sessions, however as a result of comments I have heard other times about the instruments characteristics, I suspect there are some players who may not care for it. (at a session). I assume it is because the notes ring long and the instrument is not considered traditional. I like it in moderation, the same as the other instruments. Less is more, and leave 'em wanting more.
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by blowfly
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
I am *not* one of the purists who shudders at the thought of the anathema of a hammer dulcimer player in a session -- but I have to say, I don't personally really like it when the player is one who lets the strings ring a whole lot. To me it muddies up the tune too much. But that's probably just me. And I *have* played with HD players who I thought were great in a session. Another player I know dislikes that the HDs are so percussive, and prefers the mountain dulcimers, but again mentioned that it's hard to hear them in a session.
Glad I could help, KJ -- don't give up on the fiddle! Keep it up. Its also a rewarding instrument, as well as being an aggravating one.
Zina
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Hammered dulcimers are capable of producing a "wall of sound" that can muddy up a session. The HD players I've been around usually end up using padded or soft hammers for ensemble playing. This quiets the instrument and also seems to shorten the sustain a bit. When it's just me on fiddle with an HD, I like the hard hammers--then that wall effect is welcome. Some HD's also come with a damper similar to the pedal damper on pianos.
Also, our two local HD players are good listeners and seem to know when to back off or stop altogether for a bit of pure drop lead instruments.
# Posted on March 20th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Thanks for the comments and feedback.
From what I've learned, the HD is not exclusively an American Appalachian instrument as the mountain dulcimer is. As I understand it, many cultures have fundementally similar instruments. Although, I realize it is not a traditional Irish instrument. Derek Bell of the Chieftians often plays the tiopam - which is a HD.
I have heard good HD players refer to the "wall of sound" Will mentions and it takes experience to use that properly I think.
As is often suggested in these session discussions, I have listened to Martin Hayes (over and over) and try to use/duplicate much of the style and feel in his playing. Some works for me on the HD, some you need to do things differently. A breakthrough came for me learning to play Paddy Fahey's by listening to it on Lonesome Touch. Highlighting the chord changes and really backing off in between can give the effect Will mentions - at least I think it works
I find the comments about not hearing them at a session interesting. I would have suspected the opposite.
Thanks again for the encouagement and allowing the beginners to join these discussions.
Regards, kj ryan
# Posted on March 21st 2002 by kjryan
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
KJ, it IS interesting that hammered dulcimers sometimes aren't heard over the din at a session. In ours, we've noticed this and have tweaked the arrangement of our chairs and who sits where to "manage" the HD.
Our circle forms in one corner of a 20 by 30 foot room with fairly high ceilings. If the HD is on the edge of the cirlce closest to the middle of the room, none of us can hear him. His HD is on a stand, slanted back at about a 25 degree angle, so the sound bounces back at the player and behind him, not "forward" to the center of the circle. If he sits along the wall, however, the HD sound hits the wall and rains down on the entire group, giving new meaning to the "wall" of sound metaphor.
What seems to work best in our situation is if he sits one or two chairs around the top of the circle where it arcs away from the wall. This way, we can hear him, but he doesn't flood us with sound.
# Posted on March 21st 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
It's an odd thing there that you mention, KJ. The most experienced players will tell you over and over and over again that it's not necessary to be able to play quickly, at a breakneck pace. (Although of course many of them enjoy doing exactly that, but they can do it with great feel, so they're entitled!) They all tend to cite Martin Hayes as the guy you should listen to to prove their point, probably because his recordings are so widely available. (It's no wonder so many people play East Clare style these days!)
Some of them will go on quite a lengthy tirade about how sessions these days play the music just too darn fast and it's almost impossible to enjoy the tune itself that fast -- Mike Dugger and Glen Road were in town not too long ago, and this is one of Mike's pet peeves. Mike prefers a moderate pace that allows more players to join in playing well and that really lets the tune shine on its own.
And yet, over and over and over (here in the States, anyway, I dunno about elsewhere), you'll find sessions with mid-level players playing way too fast for their own abilities, losing the feel and trying for as much flash as possible -- they can play at that speed, yes, but the feel is lacking. It took me three years to start educating my ear, but I'm finally starting to hear what all my role models have been telling me all along -- there's such a thing as playing too fast for the tune.
My point of puzzlement being: if everyone we all look up to tends to tell everyone to slow down, work on feel, think about the tune rather than the speed, why don't we all do it?
And, KJ, the whole point of a session is that everyone is part and parcel of the thing. We don't "allow" beginners to join in round these parts -- good Lord, most of us at the very least consider ourselves beginners, and some of us noisy ones really are -- I'm a beginner, myself. My own teachers used to say that a good musician can learn something from another musician, regardless of the level, and I have found this to be absolutely true. So speak up!
Zina
# Posted on March 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Bluegrass suffers from the same ailment, Zina. Intermediates often play
way past their ability to make nice music. That is the point - to make nice music, right?
As amateurs, we sometimes lack the true understanding of what makes the music good.
We hear the speed of the best professionals and think, "Ahh, Irish music is about speed."
Its rather like the story of the blind men who base their understanding of an elephant based on
the part they are touching. When we move past the beginner stage and learn to play at higher
tempos, we do because we can. We may have very little to offer a tune other than speed. Let's
face it, speed is exhilerating and fun. Many of us were first attracted to ITM because of the
exciting tempos of a jig or reel.
A seasoned master on the other hand, draws on a wealth of experience and a wide array of
techniques to "treat" the tune. I do agree that some tunes seem to "want" certain tempos
while others can be played successfully at a variety of speeds with good effect.
All this IMHO and from a beginner/outsider.
Joe
# Posted on March 21st 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Hi Joe,
Surely nice music and good music are one and the same.....if you play past your ability, then I don't think that you can play nice music. I've said on numerous occasions that I'm more comfortable playing slow airs than reels...as I play slow tunes nicely (good is a matter of opinion for others), but I play fast tunes horrendously, as they are beyond my present ability.
I love your analogy about the elephant by the way ...does he play the fiddle??
# Posted on March 21st 2002 by Mcbear365
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
I read something once that helped me understand the idea of playing speed better it went something like:
When you get to the point you are thinking more about the space/time between the notes than in playing the next note, you are beginning to make progress.
The more I thought about it, the more I thought about speed and it seemed to slow me down and away from that anxiety to play fast - beyond my ability.
kjryan
# Posted on March 21st 2002 by kjryan
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Hey all, would you mind doing me a favor and give me some feedback? Check out http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/learn.html and let me know what you think? I'm looking for anything that I might have left out, anything that should should have been left out, whatever. This includes beginners; I need to know if this info is helpful, or repetitive, or boring, not really useful, or what have you, for people just starting to learn.
Thanks!
Zina
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Zina, I've been waiting for you to put that section up on your website. Well done! I don't think you need to change a thing, but I'll toss out some ideas anyway.
over and over again.
First, it might help to mention that other beginners are good sources to learn aurally from. If they know a credible, playable version of a tune, many beginners are very willing to play it slowly (partly because they can't play it fast
Second, I find that it really helps if the player who's teaching the tune says what note they're starting on. If you're having a hard time picking up anything at all, ask them to give you just the first note. When I teach a tune, I usually start by saying what key and mode it's in, and what the first note is (e.g., "We're doing Jackie Coleman's, in D major. It starts with an A on the open second string. Then it goes right to a triplet on the F sharp, 3rd string."). I also go back after they've got the tune and explain what the options are for the "pick up" notes you might play before actually starting the tune.
Third, learning by ear depends a lot on knowing where the notes you're hearing are found on your instrument. Someone totally new to an instrument probably needs a basic introduction to scales and half- and whole-step intervals before they can begin to learn tunes by ear. Even intermediate players will struggle mightily if they try to learn a tune by ear in a key they've never played in before.
Finally, as someone who's learned mainly by ear for 20 years, I can vouch that it does get easier the more you do it. But even the best aural learners get stumped now and then (usually on some simple 4-note sequence that just doesn't click). After you've played this music long enough, you'll start giving yourself the excuse that some tunes are "counter-intuitive"--the notes don't go where you'd expect them to. And that's okay. Part of what keeps me playing Irish music is it's infinite variety. If I could figure out every tune the first go round, I'd be bored. Just persevere and be patient with yourself.
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Good points, Will! Hmmm...let me see, how to get that all in there...? Lemme play with it a bit, and then go back and look and tell me if I got it right, will you?
Zina
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by Zina Lee
Okay -- done! See if that does it, Will!
Anybody else?
Zina
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Well now *that's* embarrassing!
Zina, I like your piece on how to teach a tune, too. All this should be very helpful for everyone, not just beginners or newcomers to the aural tradition. Mind if I send all my slow session mates to your site?
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Heh. I've already started thinking of it as The Will Harmon Page in my own head. *snicker*
Sure! Let 'em all see you're famous. Heh.
Zina
P.S. Hmmm. Now why on earth did that post publish twice, I wonder?
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Zina, I asked Jeremy about this 'posting twice' thing last week.
He told me I've had probably pressed the BACK button of the browser instead of using the back function of the web site.
Toni
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Or some comments are so pithy they're worth reading twice....*snort*
# Posted on March 25th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Zina,
. They then proceeded to
Your "learning tunes by ear " document is great. I have a few editing
comments (nit-picking) , and one of the links is broken - should I
send the info to you or to the technical guy listed at the bottom of
the page? One other comment, for me, singing a tune is a big help to
learning it - well not really singing, more like dum-dum-duming it, or
is that scree-scree-screeching it? Anyway, you do mention singing a
tune at the end of the document, but it might be nice if you could
talk about how singing the phrases can help with learning a tune up in
the 'how to learn tunes by ear' section. "If you can sing a tune, you
can play a tune" is something I've heard a lot and have found to be
true (thank goodness it doesn't matter how bad it sounds as long as
you can tell what the notes are). Also, would you mind if I gave
copies of the doc to the people in a slow session I go to? We moan
about how hard it is to learn a tune by ear everytime we get together,
it would be good to do something other than just moan about it *snort*
(just had to throw that in, I've been wanting to snort online since
seeing Zina do it :^). I'll point them to the web site of course, but
some of them don't have network access.
Speaking of the slow session I go to, I've been meaning to ask y'all
for some advice. The session came about because a few of us were
invited to learn and play a couple tunes for a contra dance with some
people who occasionally play locally. One of them kindly taught us the
tunes (all by ear), and it was such fun that, after the dance, we (the
beginners) wanted to continue. Initially, we were going to get
together to play the tunes we had learned, but it quickly moved on to
playing new ones (for myself, I'm happy to play one tune for weeks,
over and over, but I'm considered rather odd by the others). In any
case, we did know those first tunes pretty well. Unfortunately, the
person who first taught us wasn't able to continue and we haven't
found anyone else who was willing to take over. That means we don't
have anyone beyond beginner level in the group, so how can we learn
how to play better? Oh, not stuff like how to play a violin, but
things like how to make a jig sound like a jig - yup, still obsessing
on that. I worry that we might be making things worse, sharing bad
habits and stomping out any good ones - you know, 6 out of 7 have a
bad habit and the one who didn't have it ends up getting it, peer
pressure and lowest common denominator always win ;). It doesn't help
that we are playing the new tunes strictly from sheet music (after
reading all the discussions here, it is obvious that this is a bad
thing). I've been pushing recordings on the others everytime we meet,
and usually play tunes off CDs at each session. However, while
listening to someone of Kevin Burke's caliber playing a tune is
wonderful and helpful for learning to hear the phrasing and rhythms of
ITM, it's not like a group of beginners could figure out how to play a
jig from it, at least not this beginner!
So, I was thinking. I am probably the best ITM player in the bunch,
certainly the most obsessed and driven anyway, and have the most
experience with ITM workshops and clinics. Maybe I could use Zina's
"How to teach a tune" comments and my recordings from the workshops
(of the teachers playing the tunes they taught at different speeds -
from really slow to normal) to teach some tunes to the group. I could
help with getting the notes and then we could use the recordings to
work on getting the feel of the music. What do you think, is this a
ridiculous idea? Would it be presumptious of me to suggest it to the
group? I like playing with the others, it's fun, we have a good time,
and there really isn't anybody else to play with locally. So, maybe I
should just relax and enjoy and not worry about whether or not we are
improving. It is rather an american thing that we always want to be
working toward a goal, isn't it? Puritan work ethic and all. I was
sitting in a pub in Ireland once, writing letters, when a couple of
locals came up and said I must be an American because I was working so
industriously on such a lovely evening
show me just how much fun could be had of an evening, and lord, those
fellas sure knew how to have fun!
-s
# Posted on April 4th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Heya:
Learn off the dots in that case.
Well, if it's the BASS link (or any of the other slowplayer.org websites) that's the broken one, send that to Mike Duffy, as I don't know why it's not there -- maybe somebody didn't ante up in time or something for the domain name. Any other broken links are my fault, not Mike's!
And feel free to send me the editing notes. There's some mistakes in there that I DO know about, and keep meaning to get round to them, but have been too busy to do it.
Also feel free to do whatever you like with the learning by ear stuff. It's not like we have a corner on any of that info, yeah? *snort* (I was going to laugh, but decided that the snorting certainly seems to be entertaining to so many of you... *grin*)
Well, I wrote this very long winded reply (yes, even longer than what's here now), and then decided that it was just too long and chucked it all. What I was saying was that changing a session into a learning session should be done with the full agreement of everyone in the session, so you might want to ask each person privately (so no one feels under pressure to say something they don't really feel) how they'd feel about it.
A session is about having fun with friends, not necessarily learning your craft. Just the act of playing will help you to improve in one way or another.
I had an hour long conversation with Kevin Burke on Monday. What a lovely man he is. He said some very interesting things that I couldn't follow up on, being on the job, but would have loved to.
One of the things he said that struck me was that he feels that the music is there all the time, always there, and that he simply taps into it when he plays. He doesn't have to think about it or do anything to it, it plays itself through him, basically.
It's only utter familiarity with the stuff and with your instrument and with your craft that lets you do this, I think. It's why listening is actually practising in Irish music.
To me, improving your feel is something you do on your own time. Listening to recordings, learning from better players -- that's all for you. A session is getting together with friends for some great crack and, oh, incidentally, we all make music together! Before you change that on the others in your session, make sure that's what they all want.
Nothing wrong with learning sessions, of course. I run one myself along with Dirk. We learn and teach tunes, though -- we're all beginners, we don't teach each other the feel except by example, so people can learn feel on their own time and what of each other's they choose to take for their own. Everyone has to decide for themselves what kind of musician to be.
If you want to learn tunes, learning off of sheet music isn't a hanging offense, no matter what the dots snobs say. But it's just harder to learn feel that way, and it's much harder to learn on the fly if you don't practise in a slow session.
Try asking everyone to learn one tune by ear from a recording (like your ones from workshops) and bring it to the group to teach to the others, no sheet music allowed. There's nothing wrong with someone saying something like, "Kevin Burke said you should try THIS on a phrase like this..." either. After a couple of months of working on those tunes, compare playing them to the feel of what you learned off the dots. If the feel is pretty much the same on all of them, what the hell.
Zina
# Posted on April 4th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
Zina,
Thanks for the comments, thoughtful and insightful as usual. Everytime I read your posts I realize that I need to relax, take it easy, and not push so hard. Yes, "mellow out, mellow out" shall be my mantra - darn it, I'm going to relax if it kills me, he, he, he. Ok, check with people privately about the learning session vs regular session, if people react negatively, drop it, if they seem interested
suggest that anyone who wants to, learn a tune by ear from a recording and then teach it to the rest of us, got it. One other player has indicated to me offline that he would like to see us do more learning, but then he is closer to my level of obsession than anyone else. Also, he and I have been keeping the session going and are sort of de facto session leaders - so we obviously are more intense. I can balance out the playing from sheet music (I agree, that isn't a hanging offense, but it is so much easier than learning by ear that unless I force myself, I would never do anything but!) with more discipline at home.
As for Kevin Burke's comment, you can hear it in his playing - a sort of becoming one with the music, very magical (no doubt, the result of years and years of focused effort). But as you said, it takes utter familiarity with the music, your instrument, and everything else - that doesn't come easy. Something to strive for. You know Zina, I envy you - getting to talk to and know so many wonderful muscians!
Off to the session, mellow out, mellow out, mellllooowww out - got it
-s
# Posted on April 4th 2002 by chicagofiddler
10 tidbits I've picked up
Here's some chestnuts I've picked up over my experience with ITM.
1. Write the tunes out as you learn them, it helps as a reference.
2. "I've learned more from the insults of *** then I learned from anyone else's nice comments." I'm not going to fill in who said that or about whom for obvious reasons. This one is harsh but there is a lot to be learned from it. Sometimes a player might come across mean, but it's for both your sake & the sake of the tunes. At the time it might hurt you but in years to come you'll usually agree with what was barked at you.
3. Play with better players as often as you can. It raises your own bar & you'll pick up all sorts of things.
4. Play all the time. - not an easy thing for most of us with lives, but the more you play the better you get.
5. "Play it with swing"
6. "I don't need to go to the arctic to know that it's cold" - an old timers warning about too much drink & the results. I'm still working on that one as I visit the arctic way too often.
7. "Go home & practice" - Skip Healy. Meant as a sort of ballbusting encouragement than a hateful addage. Ties into the "Play all the time " tidbit. Translation - don't go to a session alone to work on your chops, try to give it at least a couple minutes a day.
8. Dig up the old stuff & learn to get over the rough 78rpm record sound. That's where all the Molloy's, Burkes, Keenan's learned their tunes, it's traditional music - therefore we as wet kittens should have respect for the old masters.
9. Listen to solo recordings of your chosen instrument, bands are great but the instruments don't always get a clear enough voice to let you really pick up on the subtle stuff.
10. Have fun, there's nothing like good craic. When the tunes swings, the pints flow & the crowd hoots that's what it's all about.
To quote Mel Brooks "The History of the World"...
"I bring you the 15, (drop, smash) 10!! 10 commandments!!"
~b
# Posted on April 4th 2002 by B Rad
Re: New and help!!?!?!?!?
I have to agree that pain usually brings more growth than pleasure, Brad -- at least, it's proved so all my life!
Sort of like change -- somebody on one of my other lists was saying that there's only three final reactions to irrevocable change: change to adapt (or is that, adapt to change?), leave in order to stay the same, or die. I found that very interesting, given some of the things going on in my life right now. *grin*
Zina
# Posted on April 5th 2002 by Zina Lee