I'm having difficulty making my rolls "jump out" like I hear from my favorite fiddlers such as Kevin Burke, especially on the "slower" G and D strings. Any advice out there? Any practice techniques? Is it just simply a matter of speeding up the bow at the right instant, applying more bow pressure, or what?
"Do NOT increase bow speed on rolls," Kevin Burke himself told me once. Same goes for pressure, although I suspect some fiddlers do vary bow pressure on rolls same as they would on any other phrase where they want to change the dynamics for effect. Burke used to emphasize that the bow should remain constant throught the roll so that the effect of the roll itself--the work of the lefthand fingers--could be more clearly heard.
I agree. I think that "pop" you're trying to emulate comes from two things. First, you have to hold that first note--let the "anchor" note ring longer than you think you should. Then the roll--the following four notes--comes tumbling down all at once. The analogy that works for me to get the timing on this is to think of the first note as a train engine pulling four boxcars. The engine comes first, and it's longer than each of the boxcars. In fact, if the boxcars are 10 meters long each, then the engine is 40 meters long. So when the train goes by, the engine takes as long to pass as all four of the boxcars. This will give you some of the pop.
Second, for maximum pop in your roll, you need to have a lot of energy behind the finger that plays the first cut note (the first boxcar after the engine). I use my ring finger to cut all rolls where the anchor note is held by the index or middle fingers, and then pinky for rolls where the ring finger holds the anchor note. Coming from guitar and banjo, I think of that ring finger cut note almost as a hammer-on. The finger pulls back in a wind-up before striking down as fast as it can. What keeps it from being a true hammer-on is that you don't actually press the string all the way down to the fingerboard. The ring finger should just nick the string, just interrupting its vibration, not pinning it down. So my ring finger flicks at the string, and continues right past it so the tip of the finger ends up pointed at my palm. The motion is very similar to snapping your fingers. The key is to pull the ring finger back while the first anchor note is going to get some oomph behind it when it strikes at the string. Of course your fingers have to stay relaxed through all of this, and it all happens in a tenth of a blink of an eye.
It's harder to do on the D and G strings because your hand has to reach farther to get the notes, and the strings are at a lower tension. It also doesn't help if your fiddle is at all muddy on the bass side (which many tend to be).
And remember that not all rolls need to pop. Some tempos and tunes calls for a more relaxed roll, almost melodic in it's slowness. And that's good to practice too.
Ultimately, it just takes 7,000 or so attempts at rolls before they start to sound good, so loosen up those fingers and go to work.....
Wow! I'm suprised! I've been told (and had success with) accelerating the bow into the roll. On the other hand, if that techique is good enough for Burke, it's good enough for me. I'll give it a go.
What I love about rolls is not only do they have a certain sound, but also a certain feel under the fingers; like the string is alive (especially the lower strings)! My teacher describes the feeling as popping plastic bubble-wrap with your fingers. I've felt that myself, but I need to be more consistant!
Good advice is given above but keep in mind that what works for Kevin Burke might not work for everyone. I have had good results with leaning into the bow for some rolls. Sometimes there's also the effect of not getting it for trying too hard. Listen to a lot of good players that produce the rolls the way you like them. Keep trying to do the rolls and, at some point, what you are hearing will translate into your fingers. Sometimes you just can't rationalize things and figure out exactly what your fingers should do during the execution of a roll - if you allow yourself to relax and just mentally picture the rolls as you hear them and keep practicing there will come a point at which the rolls will start coming out in an organic fashion. Until that point I would suggest concentrating more on the "lift" or "phrasing" of the tunes. The fancy ornaments are the icing on the cake but fancy icing on a poorly baked cake still makes for a bad cake.
It's that pulling away into the palm thing that Will is talking about that I think you're seeing there, Joe. Sort of like drumming your fingers into your palm instead of on a table top or something, and in a different order.
Well, no, what works for Kevin Burke rarely ever works as well for the rest of us. That's what makes him Kevin Burke (and not Mr. Bean). But he executes damn nice rolls....
I only led off with Burke's advice because Pat mentioned him and Burke was so emphatic about this when he showed me how to do rolls 20 years ago. Having watched in person a number of other excellent fiddlers (Liz Carroll, Eileen Ivers, Sean Smyth, Ciaran Tourish, Winnie Horan, etc.), and having played rolls myself for a couple of decades, I'd advise pretty strongly against changing your bow speed in mid roll, unless you're aiming for some unusual effect (perhaps outside the "norm" in ITM).
I say this in part because I've never seen/heard anyone of any caliber do it, and also because that was part of the regimen of how I learned it--keep the bow steady while your lefthand fingers do the ornament. The fiddlers I've asked told me it was important to do it that way: (1) for control's sake, (2) for a strong, even tone through the roll, and (3) to avoid running out of bow due to speeding up on an already "long" note.
How fast you run your bow, and how long a stroke you take affects the tone quality. You can produce different tones by changing these two aspects of the bow stroke. (Of course you can also do other things to change the tone--notably vary the pressure--but let's think just about bow speed for a minute.) So if you're playing along with a regular bow speed, and all of a sudden you speed up through a roll (or worse, on *all* your rolls because you've gotten used to doing them that way), they will sound different than the rest of the tune. If you do this sparingly, for emphasis once in a while, it might work okay. But otherwise it will sound uneven and a little frantic (at least to my ear).
For that smooth, effortless gliding sound, it works best for me to keep the bow moving at basically the same speed through whatever my left hand is doing. Sure, sometimes you play things with a fast bow (and some fiddles respond better to this), and sometimes with a slow bow. But in the midst of the jigs and reels, bow speed doesn't change that much. Pressure and length of stroke, yes; speed, no. If you get really analytical about it, I suppose it's because there has to be some proportionality to all those up and down bows or we'd always end up right at the tip or hard against the frog (another tune title?).
For example, when you do the typical Sligo shuffle bow--down bow on one eighth note, slur the next three on an up bow--that down bow has to move faster than the up bow to make up all the hair covered in the three slurred eigthth notes. When done properly, it never quite makes up the difference, so after 3-4 of these, you usually end up down near the frog. Most ITM fiddlers mix in groups of shorter slurs or single-bowed notes to avoid this. *That is preferrable to dramatically changing the bow speed because it helps keep the tone even.*
Joe, Zina's got it I think, that the lefthand motion you're seeing across the strings is the result of all that wind-up and follow through to get the rolls crisp.
Now, I realize that I must come across on here as pushing this overly analytical approach to fiddling. Partly that's the nature of trying to explain in words, in writing no less, the details of what's going on when you play. It's a whole lot easier to explain these things by demonstrating them in person, and saying, "it looks/sounds like this." And I don't want to discredit the "organic" or "osmosis" approach, where you immerse yourself in listening to good players and eventually end up sounding like them. That works for some people, and it's an essential part of learning to play, no matter what learning style suits you best. You can't learn ITM without listening to a lot of good ITM players. But in my experience, most of the really good players know exactly what they're doing, inside and out. They don't pay any attention to it when they're playing because that would just get in the way. But many of them can break it down and talk about it in detail if you ask them. (Some won't do this because they've quite reasonably decided that it's not up to them to help every Henry that comes along hoping for a free lesson.) Sure, ultimately there's fine, ineffable stuff going on when you get the bow working, or the rolls clicking, or whatever. Stuff that probably can't be reduced to mechanics and "insert-tab-A-into-slot-Z" instructions. But a lot of it *can* be explained, and introduced consciously, and I see no harm in that.
Radriano's right to emphasize the soul of the tune over the ornaments. But rolls and cuts and triplets, etc., are integral to ITM music, and the only way to get it all working is to use them. Sparingly at first, and tastfully, but start working them in. I think it would be really frustrating to bake an outrageous cake and have not a clue how to make icing.
Well, my bowed triplets sure improved immensely with advice from this list (without having to actually hurt any frogs) so I'm willing to give re-working my rolls a try. What the heck! But like Caoimghgin, I learned to increase bow speed and pressure during a roll. I believe I got that from the Peter Cooper book. And it does sound like other expert players do it that way to me (like Coleman) but I could be mis-hearing. Matt Cranitch doesn't seem to do it. Soon as the soreness wears off from overplaying in honor of St. Patrick, I'm going give the more even rolls a try. I'm thinking I could be *too* crunchy on the rolls. Crunchy rolls....mmmmmm!
Ohhhhh, YEAH!! It was soooo cold in the building we were in that soon as we stopped playing for long we'd freeze. That *really* made us hungry! Oh, thanks Zina. Now I'm going to have to hit the local bakery tomorrow in search of warm, fresh bread! I know, I know...I started it
Hey, Will, it wasn't my intention to discredit what you were saying in any way. It's amazing to me to see someone put all that technical stuff into words. I was just offering an alternative way of thinking on the subject. My explanation was also how I learned rolls but there's room for all kinds of technique in Irish fiddle playing. Chances are that you'll get three different explanations from three fiddle players. I once took a fiddle workshop that was led by Alistair Frazer (Scottish), Martin Hayes, and another fiddler whose name I can't remember. It was an interesting workshop but there was no mention of bowing. I asked them to talk about bowing and they said that you shouldn't have to think about bowing. Huh? I spoke to them after the workshop and they said that bowing is so complicated and there are so many styles that they'd need to do the whole workshop just on bowing. Basically their workshop was more a showcase for each of them to perform rather than a real workshop. So here were three world class fiddle players with really different approaches to their playing. A lot of the explanation of technique has to do with specific styles of playing so techniques might vary drastically from one style to the next.
Sorry Radriano if I came across as overly defensive. Must be my response to the snow and cold battering my Montana window as I sit here. I swear, the close we get to spring, the more it looks like winter.
I agree that all this bowing stuff is highly dependent on style and individual abilities and preferences. What makes that difficult when you're first learning is trying to figure out how hard to struggle with something before giving it up as "not my style." I wonder how many people have gone bonkers trying to get Tommy Peoples' triplets or Frankie Gavin's swing or Martin Hayes' layers before realizing that any of those talents might be beyond them?
It's also "true" that if you have to think about bowing while you're actually playing, you haven't got it yet. So that learning stage can be really frustrating--unriddling what all these different fiddlers do with their bows. In the end, I found myself trying *everything*--and I've said this before, taking a phrase or a tune and bow it forwards, backwards, and inside out. Sometimes I could do that just by osmosis, but on more intricate stuff, I usually had to break it down into pieces and try to understand what the possibilities were. Typical Cartesian process of isolating the bits before I could re-assemble them into a whole, working system again.
So, following my own advice, it makes sense to try a few rolls while changing your bow speed, just to see what happens. Tinker with bow pressure, direction, where on the bow you are when the roll comes, full hair or angled?, etc. Also noodle around with different approaches to what the left hand is doing. How much "wind up" should you take with that ring finger or pinky? How much can you vary the amount of contact it makes with the string? How much do you lift off the string with the anchor finger? Etc.
The Spring 2002 issue of Fiddler Magazine has an interview with Seamus Connolly, and when they ask him how he got so good, he says simply that he practiced a lot. I'm convinced that an integral part of that practicing is taking time to experiment and try things every which way, and then honing what works for you. And sometimes you have to woodshed and spend the extra anguishing hours to hone what *doesn't* work for you so that it becomes second nature.
I've had similar experiences with fiddle workshops as what Radriano describes. Wouldn't it be great if Hayes or Fraser or whoever DID offer a four hour clinic just on bowing?!
For us fiddlers this tenth of a second roll discussion topic is surely a topic which can outlast a decade. Thanks especially to Will for his insights and elaborate explanations.
When practicing tunes with rolls I find that the rolls - and especially the first "lengthy" anchor note (or locomotive, as Will describes it) quite often seems to "belong" at a slower pace than is found at most sessions. To me it seems there is a contradiction of a "lengthy" first anchor note and a speedy session pace.
At sessions sometimes I find myself forced to compromize by either omitting rolls or substituting them with triplets, if the speed is higher than my preferred.
My personal experience is that my first 7042 roll rehearsal attempts has only brought me to a certain speed ability level, and I will probably need to double the number of attempts many times to reach the *desired* session speed level........(how many rolls are there in a decade.....)
Wow! Thanks for all the great responses. It amazes me how fiddlers approach their instrument so differently. I probably tend to over-analyze on technique but I've found that I sometimes uncover a real nugget by "picking the brains" of fellow fiddlers which allows me to speed up the learning process and get to where I want to go much quicker. I especially appreciate Will's technical breakdown (that's exactly what I was looking for) and will give it a try. Thanks to everybody for the follow-up. This is a super site. One more ? for Will- do you lift your finger off the string to get the low note (4th note) on a roll or do you just lift it slightly but don't lose contact?
Glad that I can be of help, Pat. On that low note, Burke says to release pressure from the string, and not to worry about whether the finger comes completely off or not. He demonstrated this, letting the string come up off the fingerboard, but with his finger (index in this case) still touching the string. Played super slowly, this produces a muffled sound, not really a "note." And that's all you need to do the roll--interrupt the string's vibration (not necessarily producing a full note).
Now, in practice, I've noticed it there's such a miniscule difference between staying on the string and coming just a hair off it that I don't think it matters. The more efficient your left hand becomes, the more blurred this distinction is, especially at speed--even when playing full, clean notes, your fingers hover just above the strings anyway (the index and middle fingers are very close to the strings most of the time--ring and pinky seem to float a little higher because they have more reaching to do). This is what happens when your hand is really relaxed...you've acheived genuine economy of motion because there is so little motion.
One possible exception to all this is when you're playing a slow air and you want to emphasize the melodic potential of a roll. Then I think it helps to come off the string. But it still goes by in a flash, so again, the distinction is a fine one indeed and probably lost on most ears.
Caoimghgin, if you stick with the "Burke method" (he'd get a good chuckle that we're calling it that) for a week or so, please post some feedback here on how it goes...whether you like your rolls better this way than before (and maybe something about how you used to do them). One of the things I like about this site is all the different points of view and ways of thinking about playing. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.
I play rolls with an even bow speed because that's how I was taught, but I've made up a rationale for it, too. To me, a roll is a purely lefthand ornament. Besides adding rhythmic oomph and texture to a phrase, a roll also simplifies the bowing of that phrase--when I play a roll, the bowing is automatic: whether an up or down bow, it goes in one direction and at one speed for the duration of the roll. So I don't have to think about the righthand at all during a roll.
Cut notes, slides, and slurred triplets are also lefthand ornaments.
Bowed triplets obviously are righthand ornaments, although when you finger different notes within the triplet they require some ambidexterity.
My point here is that it can help some of us to "categorize" all these tricks of the trade as lefthand or righthand, especially early in the learning process. This lets us focus on the task at hand (no pun intended), in the midst of the neural chaos that fiddling creates with so much going on all at the same time. In the long run, I think it also helps produce a cleaner, better sound because it puts the emphasis in the right place. In short, if you want clean, "popping" rolls, they need to come from the left hand. All the right hand does is provide a good strong tone (as if that were easy--hah).
Some people hear a "speeding up" from the long anchor note to the flurry of four boxcars racing by, and so they reflexively speed up the bow. But we can get that "rush" of notes using the left hand only--it's the comparative advantage of doing a roll instead of 3 or 4 extra melody notes. Ultimately, a roll takes less effort. If our goal is effortless playing, why add extra effort to the bow work when the left hand has already taken care of it?
Does that make sense?
P.S. We've mostly been talking about long rolls here. A short roll on fiddle is the same sequence of notes and fingerings, but done on top of the beat instead of after it. In other words, the locomotive and the boxcars are all the same length, and they all go by together (rather than waiting on the locomotive). This can happen on a dotted quarter note, or on just a quarter note.
You know, one of my biggest left hand bugaboos is that my index finger just really wants to stick up during passages that don't use it. I've worked and worked and worked at it, and as soon as I take my attention off it, up it goes. I've had any number of fiddlers tell me not to even worry about it, but I wish I could get it to relax and hover over the strings. I think this is mainly because my hand tenses up trying to keep it down -- it's relaxed with it sticking up, oddly enough. *sigh*
Most fiddlers I know have stressed out over how high their fingers fly when they're not using them, and eventually, most of them find those same fingers learn to roost nearer the strings. If I shake out my hands and let them come to rest in the most "natural" position, my left hand fingers curl into a loose "C" shape, while my right hand fingers lay open more, about on line with where they are when they hold a bow. I chalk this up to learned muscle memory. Twenty years of this punishment, and the fingers have finally quit fighting it.
Some of it really is muscle--all the little fibers specific to the motions of fiddling end up reshaping your hands. Like Dizzy Gillespie's cheeks, you'll know your mastering your instrument when it has reshaped your body.
I also think that playing at high speed forces your left hand fingers to stay closer to home. It takes years of doing this, until "too fast" doesn't feel "too fast" anymore. Then those fingers will just dangle on the strings.
Zina, take heart in Eileen Ivers. Her fingers seem to dance higher over the strings than most players, and it obviously doesn't hinder her at all. I'd agree that you might as well ignore it. After another 20,000 hours of playing, it won't be a problem....
Huh. Well, to add to the fun, my thumb on the left hand has started a distressing trend of wanting to crack all the time. Pop. Pop. After a while, the joint even gets a little sore from all the popping. Go figure. After the 20,000 hours of playing after that, perhaps it'll be the rest of the joints as well...I've never really watched my left hand while playing, it must look very odd, index finger up in the air, thumb popping every now and again... heh.
fiddle rolls
fiddle rolls
I'm having difficulty making my rolls "jump out" like I hear from my favorite fiddlers such as Kevin Burke, especially on the "slower" G and D strings. Any advice out there? Any practice techniques? Is it just simply a matter of speeding up the bow at the right instant, applying more bow pressure, or what?
# Posted on March 17th 2002 by Pat
Re: fiddle rolls
"Do NOT increase bow speed on rolls," Kevin Burke himself told me once. Same goes for pressure, although I suspect some fiddlers do vary bow pressure on rolls same as they would on any other phrase where they want to change the dynamics for effect. Burke used to emphasize that the bow should remain constant throught the roll so that the effect of the roll itself--the work of the lefthand fingers--could be more clearly heard.
I agree. I think that "pop" you're trying to emulate comes from two things. First, you have to hold that first note--let the "anchor" note ring longer than you think you should. Then the roll--the following four notes--comes tumbling down all at once. The analogy that works for me to get the timing on this is to think of the first note as a train engine pulling four boxcars. The engine comes first, and it's longer than each of the boxcars. In fact, if the boxcars are 10 meters long each, then the engine is 40 meters long. So when the train goes by, the engine takes as long to pass as all four of the boxcars. This will give you some of the pop.
Second, for maximum pop in your roll, you need to have a lot of energy behind the finger that plays the first cut note (the first boxcar after the engine). I use my ring finger to cut all rolls where the anchor note is held by the index or middle fingers, and then pinky for rolls where the ring finger holds the anchor note. Coming from guitar and banjo, I think of that ring finger cut note almost as a hammer-on. The finger pulls back in a wind-up before striking down as fast as it can. What keeps it from being a true hammer-on is that you don't actually press the string all the way down to the fingerboard. The ring finger should just nick the string, just interrupting its vibration, not pinning it down. So my ring finger flicks at the string, and continues right past it so the tip of the finger ends up pointed at my palm. The motion is very similar to snapping your fingers. The key is to pull the ring finger back while the first anchor note is going to get some oomph behind it when it strikes at the string. Of course your fingers have to stay relaxed through all of this, and it all happens in a tenth of a blink of an eye.
It's harder to do on the D and G strings because your hand has to reach farther to get the notes, and the strings are at a lower tension. It also doesn't help if your fiddle is at all muddy on the bass side (which many tend to be).
And remember that not all rolls need to pop. Some tempos and tunes calls for a more relaxed roll, almost melodic in it's slowness. And that's good to practice too.
Ultimately, it just takes 7,000 or so attempts at rolls before they start to sound good, so loosen up those fingers and go to work.....
# Posted on March 17th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: fiddle rolls
Wow! I'm suprised! I've been told (and had success with) accelerating the bow into the roll. On the other hand, if that techique is good enough for Burke, it's good enough for me. I'll give it a go.
What I love about rolls is not only do they have a certain sound, but also a certain feel under the fingers; like the string is alive (especially the lower strings)! My teacher describes the feeling as popping plastic bubble-wrap with your fingers. I've felt that myself, but I need to be more consistant!
A wonderful explaination of rolls by Will.
# Posted on March 17th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: fiddle rolls
Good advice is given above but keep in mind that what works for Kevin Burke might not work for everyone. I have had good results with leaning into the bow for some rolls. Sometimes there's also the effect of not getting it for trying too hard. Listen to a lot of good players that produce the rolls the way you like them. Keep trying to do the rolls and, at some point, what you are hearing will translate into your fingers. Sometimes you just can't rationalize things and figure out exactly what your fingers should do during the execution of a roll - if you allow yourself to relax and just mentally picture the rolls as you hear them and keep practicing there will come a point at which the rolls will start coming out in an organic fashion. Until that point I would suggest concentrating more on the "lift" or "phrasing" of the tunes. The fancy ornaments are the icing on the cake but fancy icing on a poorly baked cake still makes for a bad cake.
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by radriano
Re: fiddle rolls
I think I have noticed some "sideways" action by the involved fingers executing a roll when I watch good players?
Any comments?
Joe
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: fiddle rolls
It's that pulling away into the palm thing that Will is talking about that I think you're seeing there, Joe. Sort of like drumming your fingers into your palm instead of on a table top or something, and in a different order.
Zina
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: fiddle rolls
Well, no, what works for Kevin Burke rarely ever works as well for the rest of us. That's what makes him Kevin Burke (and not Mr. Bean). But he executes damn nice rolls....
I only led off with Burke's advice because Pat mentioned him and Burke was so emphatic about this when he showed me how to do rolls 20 years ago. Having watched in person a number of other excellent fiddlers (Liz Carroll, Eileen Ivers, Sean Smyth, Ciaran Tourish, Winnie Horan, etc.), and having played rolls myself for a couple of decades, I'd advise pretty strongly against changing your bow speed in mid roll, unless you're aiming for some unusual effect (perhaps outside the "norm" in ITM).
I say this in part because I've never seen/heard anyone of any caliber do it, and also because that was part of the regimen of how I learned it--keep the bow steady while your lefthand fingers do the ornament. The fiddlers I've asked told me it was important to do it that way: (1) for control's sake, (2) for a strong, even tone through the roll, and (3) to avoid running out of bow due to speeding up on an already "long" note.
How fast you run your bow, and how long a stroke you take affects the tone quality. You can produce different tones by changing these two aspects of the bow stroke. (Of course you can also do other things to change the tone--notably vary the pressure--but let's think just about bow speed for a minute.) So if you're playing along with a regular bow speed, and all of a sudden you speed up through a roll (or worse, on *all* your rolls because you've gotten used to doing them that way), they will sound different than the rest of the tune. If you do this sparingly, for emphasis once in a while, it might work okay. But otherwise it will sound uneven and a little frantic (at least to my ear).
For that smooth, effortless gliding sound, it works best for me to keep the bow moving at basically the same speed through whatever my left hand is doing. Sure, sometimes you play things with a fast bow (and some fiddles respond better to this), and sometimes with a slow bow. But in the midst of the jigs and reels, bow speed doesn't change that much. Pressure and length of stroke, yes; speed, no. If you get really analytical about it, I suppose it's because there has to be some proportionality to all those up and down bows or we'd always end up right at the tip or hard against the frog (another tune title?).
For example, when you do the typical Sligo shuffle bow--down bow on one eighth note, slur the next three on an up bow--that down bow has to move faster than the up bow to make up all the hair covered in the three slurred eigthth notes. When done properly, it never quite makes up the difference, so after 3-4 of these, you usually end up down near the frog. Most ITM fiddlers mix in groups of shorter slurs or single-bowed notes to avoid this. *That is preferrable to dramatically changing the bow speed because it helps keep the tone even.*
Joe, Zina's got it I think, that the lefthand motion you're seeing across the strings is the result of all that wind-up and follow through to get the rolls crisp.
Now, I realize that I must come across on here as pushing this overly analytical approach to fiddling. Partly that's the nature of trying to explain in words, in writing no less, the details of what's going on when you play. It's a whole lot easier to explain these things by demonstrating them in person, and saying, "it looks/sounds like this." And I don't want to discredit the "organic" or "osmosis" approach, where you immerse yourself in listening to good players and eventually end up sounding like them. That works for some people, and it's an essential part of learning to play, no matter what learning style suits you best. You can't learn ITM without listening to a lot of good ITM players. But in my experience, most of the really good players know exactly what they're doing, inside and out. They don't pay any attention to it when they're playing because that would just get in the way. But many of them can break it down and talk about it in detail if you ask them. (Some won't do this because they've quite reasonably decided that it's not up to them to help every Henry that comes along hoping for a free lesson.) Sure, ultimately there's fine, ineffable stuff going on when you get the bow working, or the rolls clicking, or whatever. Stuff that probably can't be reduced to mechanics and "insert-tab-A-into-slot-Z" instructions. But a lot of it *can* be explained, and introduced consciously, and I see no harm in that.
Radriano's right to emphasize the soul of the tune over the ornaments. But rolls and cuts and triplets, etc., are integral to ITM music, and the only way to get it all working is to use them. Sparingly at first, and tastfully, but start working them in. I think it would be really frustrating to bake an outrageous cake and have not a clue how to make icing.
Whew!
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: fiddle rolls
Well, my bowed triplets sure improved immensely with advice from this list (without having to actually hurt any frogs) so I'm willing to give re-working my rolls a try. What the heck! But like Caoimghgin, I learned to increase bow speed and pressure during a roll. I believe I got that from the Peter Cooper book. And it does sound like other expert players do it that way to me (like Coleman) but I could be mis-hearing. Matt Cranitch doesn't seem to do it. Soon as the soreness wears off from overplaying in honor of St. Patrick, I'm going give the more even rolls a try. I'm thinking I could be *too* crunchy on the rolls. Crunchy rolls....mmmmmm!
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by soft black stars
Don't, Chris!
Warm! With butter! And pecans and lots of brown sugar!
My god, I'm always so HUNGRY after shows....
Zina
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: fiddle rolls
Ohhhhh, YEAH!! It was soooo cold in the building we were in that soon as we stopped playing for long we'd freeze. That *really* made us hungry! Oh, thanks Zina. Now I'm going to have to hit the local bakery tomorrow in search of warm, fresh bread! I know, I know...I started it
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: fiddle rolls
Hey, Will, it wasn't my intention to discredit what you were saying in any way. It's amazing to me to see someone put all that technical stuff into words. I was just offering an alternative way of thinking on the subject. My explanation was also how I learned rolls but there's room for all kinds of technique in Irish fiddle playing. Chances are that you'll get three different explanations from three fiddle players. I once took a fiddle workshop that was led by Alistair Frazer (Scottish), Martin Hayes, and another fiddler whose name I can't remember. It was an interesting workshop but there was no mention of bowing. I asked them to talk about bowing and they said that you shouldn't have to think about bowing. Huh? I spoke to them after the workshop and they said that bowing is so complicated and there are so many styles that they'd need to do the whole workshop just on bowing. Basically their workshop was more a showcase for each of them to perform rather than a real workshop. So here were three world class fiddle players with really different approaches to their playing. A lot of the explanation of technique has to do with specific styles of playing so techniques might vary drastically from one style to the next.
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by radriano
Re: fiddle rolls
Sorry Radriano if I came across as overly defensive. Must be my response to the snow and cold battering my Montana window as I sit here. I swear, the close we get to spring, the more it looks like winter.
I agree that all this bowing stuff is highly dependent on style and individual abilities and preferences. What makes that difficult when you're first learning is trying to figure out how hard to struggle with something before giving it up as "not my style." I wonder how many people have gone bonkers trying to get Tommy Peoples' triplets or Frankie Gavin's swing or Martin Hayes' layers before realizing that any of those talents might be beyond them?
It's also "true" that if you have to think about bowing while you're actually playing, you haven't got it yet. So that learning stage can be really frustrating--unriddling what all these different fiddlers do with their bows. In the end, I found myself trying *everything*--and I've said this before, taking a phrase or a tune and bow it forwards, backwards, and inside out. Sometimes I could do that just by osmosis, but on more intricate stuff, I usually had to break it down into pieces and try to understand what the possibilities were. Typical Cartesian process of isolating the bits before I could re-assemble them into a whole, working system again.
So, following my own advice, it makes sense to try a few rolls while changing your bow speed, just to see what happens. Tinker with bow pressure, direction, where on the bow you are when the roll comes, full hair or angled?, etc. Also noodle around with different approaches to what the left hand is doing. How much "wind up" should you take with that ring finger or pinky? How much can you vary the amount of contact it makes with the string? How much do you lift off the string with the anchor finger? Etc.
The Spring 2002 issue of Fiddler Magazine has an interview with Seamus Connolly, and when they ask him how he got so good, he says simply that he practiced a lot. I'm convinced that an integral part of that practicing is taking time to experiment and try things every which way, and then honing what works for you. And sometimes you have to woodshed and spend the extra anguishing hours to hone what *doesn't* work for you so that it becomes second nature.
I've had similar experiences with fiddle workshops as what Radriano describes. Wouldn't it be great if Hayes or Fraser or whoever DID offer a four hour clinic just on bowing?!
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: fiddle rolls encore
For us fiddlers this tenth of a second roll discussion topic is surely a topic which can outlast a decade. Thanks especially to Will for his insights and elaborate explanations.
When practicing tunes with rolls I find that the rolls - and especially the first "lengthy" anchor note (or locomotive, as Will describes it) quite often seems to "belong" at a slower pace than is found at most sessions. To me it seems there is a contradiction of a "lengthy" first anchor note and a speedy session pace.
At sessions sometimes I find myself forced to compromize by either omitting rolls or substituting them with triplets, if the speed is higher than my preferred.
My personal experience is that my first 7042 roll rehearsal attempts has only brought me to a certain speed ability level, and I will probably need to double the number of attempts many times to reach the *desired* session speed level........(how many rolls are there in a decade.....)
Halldor
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by MrGanAinm
Re: fiddle rolls
Wow! Thanks for all the great responses. It amazes me how fiddlers approach their instrument so differently. I probably tend to over-analyze on technique but I've found that I sometimes uncover a real nugget by "picking the brains" of fellow fiddlers which allows me to speed up the learning process and get to where I want to go much quicker. I especially appreciate Will's technical breakdown (that's exactly what I was looking for) and will give it a try. Thanks to everybody for the follow-up. This is a super site. One more ? for Will- do you lift your finger off the string to get the low note (4th note) on a roll or do you just lift it slightly but don't lose contact?
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by Pat
Re: fiddle rolls
Practised today. Gave the rolls a try and I have to admit there just might be something to the Burke method after all! Very interesting!
# Posted on March 19th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: fiddle rolls
Glad that I can be of help, Pat. On that low note, Burke says to release pressure from the string, and not to worry about whether the finger comes completely off or not. He demonstrated this, letting the string come up off the fingerboard, but with his finger (index in this case) still touching the string. Played super slowly, this produces a muffled sound, not really a "note." And that's all you need to do the roll--interrupt the string's vibration (not necessarily producing a full note).
Now, in practice, I've noticed it there's such a miniscule difference between staying on the string and coming just a hair off it that I don't think it matters. The more efficient your left hand becomes, the more blurred this distinction is, especially at speed--even when playing full, clean notes, your fingers hover just above the strings anyway (the index and middle fingers are very close to the strings most of the time--ring and pinky seem to float a little higher because they have more reaching to do). This is what happens when your hand is really relaxed...you've acheived genuine economy of motion because there is so little motion.
One possible exception to all this is when you're playing a slow air and you want to emphasize the melodic potential of a roll. Then I think it helps to come off the string. But it still goes by in a flash, so again, the distinction is a fine one indeed and probably lost on most ears.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on March 20th 2002 by Will CPT
The Burke Method
Caoimghgin, if you stick with the "Burke method" (he'd get a good chuckle that we're calling it that) for a week or so, please post some feedback here on how it goes...whether you like your rolls better this way than before (and maybe something about how you used to do them). One of the things I like about this site is all the different points of view and ways of thinking about playing. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.
I play rolls with an even bow speed because that's how I was taught, but I've made up a rationale for it, too. To me, a roll is a purely lefthand ornament. Besides adding rhythmic oomph and texture to a phrase, a roll also simplifies the bowing of that phrase--when I play a roll, the bowing is automatic: whether an up or down bow, it goes in one direction and at one speed for the duration of the roll. So I don't have to think about the righthand at all during a roll.
Cut notes, slides, and slurred triplets are also lefthand ornaments.
Bowed triplets obviously are righthand ornaments, although when you finger different notes within the triplet they require some ambidexterity.
My point here is that it can help some of us to "categorize" all these tricks of the trade as lefthand or righthand, especially early in the learning process. This lets us focus on the task at hand (no pun intended), in the midst of the neural chaos that fiddling creates with so much going on all at the same time. In the long run, I think it also helps produce a cleaner, better sound because it puts the emphasis in the right place. In short, if you want clean, "popping" rolls, they need to come from the left hand. All the right hand does is provide a good strong tone (as if that were easy--hah).
Some people hear a "speeding up" from the long anchor note to the flurry of four boxcars racing by, and so they reflexively speed up the bow. But we can get that "rush" of notes using the left hand only--it's the comparative advantage of doing a roll instead of 3 or 4 extra melody notes. Ultimately, a roll takes less effort. If our goal is effortless playing, why add extra effort to the bow work when the left hand has already taken care of it?
Does that make sense?
P.S. We've mostly been talking about long rolls here. A short roll on fiddle is the same sequence of notes and fingerings, but done on top of the beat instead of after it. In other words, the locomotive and the boxcars are all the same length, and they all go by together (rather than waiting on the locomotive). This can happen on a dotted quarter note, or on just a quarter note.
# Posted on March 20th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: fiddle rolls
You know, one of my biggest left hand bugaboos is that my index finger just really wants to stick up during passages that don't use it. I've worked and worked and worked at it, and as soon as I take my attention off it, up it goes. I've had any number of fiddlers tell me not to even worry about it, but I wish I could get it to relax and hover over the strings. I think this is mainly because my hand tenses up trying to keep it down -- it's relaxed with it sticking up, oddly enough. *sigh*
Zina
# Posted on March 20th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: fiddle rolls
Well, at least it's your *index* finger....
Most fiddlers I know have stressed out over how high their fingers fly when they're not using them, and eventually, most of them find those same fingers learn to roost nearer the strings. If I shake out my hands and let them come to rest in the most "natural" position, my left hand fingers curl into a loose "C" shape, while my right hand fingers lay open more, about on line with where they are when they hold a bow. I chalk this up to learned muscle memory. Twenty years of this punishment, and the fingers have finally quit fighting it.
Some of it really is muscle--all the little fibers specific to the motions of fiddling end up reshaping your hands. Like Dizzy Gillespie's cheeks, you'll know your mastering your instrument when it has reshaped your body.
I also think that playing at high speed forces your left hand fingers to stay closer to home. It takes years of doing this, until "too fast" doesn't feel "too fast" anymore. Then those fingers will just dangle on the strings.
Zina, take heart in Eileen Ivers. Her fingers seem to dance higher over the strings than most players, and it obviously doesn't hinder her at all. I'd agree that you might as well ignore it. After another 20,000 hours of playing, it won't be a problem....
# Posted on March 20th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: fiddle rolls
Huh. Well, to add to the fun, my thumb on the left hand has started a distressing trend of wanting to crack all the time. Pop. Pop. After a while, the joint even gets a little sore from all the popping. Go figure. After the 20,000 hours of playing after that, perhaps it'll be the rest of the joints as well...I've never really watched my left hand while playing, it must look very odd, index finger up in the air, thumb popping every now and again... heh.
zls
# Posted on March 20th 2002 by Zina Lee