Cá bhfuil na gaeilgeoirí? Níl duine ar bith ag scríobh rud ar bith as Gaeilge.
Cén áit atá tú, a Mháirtín?
Ba mhaith liom Gaeilge a léamh ar an áit seo, mar sin.
Tá mé anseo a chairde ! agus mar a duirt me an t-ám deireadh, is rud iontach maith, an gaeilge usaid mar cosuil le an ceol, is pairt mór den cúltuir gaelach é ach níl seo an ait is fear le é a usaid mar níl gaeilge ag na daoine eile is mór an trua agus mar sin, tá tú ag "isolating " siad.
Is brea liom do attitude go dtí gaeilge mar sin, ma bhfuil tú ag iarraigh, an rud is fear le dheannamh ga tá do sliocht a scriobh i ngaeilge agus i mbearla mar sin, beidh tú ag usaid gaeilge agus ní bheidh tú ag chuir aon duine amach. agus mar a duirt jeremy, is fear leat, labhairt faoí rud ceolmhar.
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What cathail is trying to say is that the irish is a huge part of the irish culture and that we should make an effort to use as much of it as possible on this site , even if it is only a few words.
what i said then was that he should translate what he said in irish into english as so he isnt isolating anybody who dosnt have irish from the conversation and then have a more musical disscusion.
Personally, I'd love to learn Gaelige, but it seems to take an awful lot of time to learn...I can't quite make head or tails of all the rules. Mairtin, Cathal, would you perhaps like to teach us some Gaelige? How about starting with words and phrases that are common in the music? How to pronounce is particularly important, I think, as the letters for the various sounds don't look anything like what they sound like when written in the English alphabet.
Even if we can manage enough to decode how to say some of the tune titles in Gaelige or at least translate, I'd be happy!
I'm with you Mairtín, but unfortunately my Irish is still very poor.
Zina had a lovely idea, perhaps ye could help us to learn some basic rules ans phrases.
Just think about it. Every single thing that can promote the irish culture has my entire support.
Your idea of posting in Irish and English at the same time is fine by me.
If someone posts in Irish I'm fine with that, I think it'd be a great occasional diversion & a chance to work on the the little Irish I have. However I come to this site to learn tunes & chat about music - I'm sure there are sites like thesession.org that are dedicated to Irish Language.
In short I guess I'm saying post in whatever language you can (or want) but just keep the emphasis on the music.
Yes, it's lovely to know what the heck Cathal was saying, Mairtin!
So...to start, is it right that Sliabh or Slieve means mountain, and it can be pronounced "sleeve" or "shleeve"? I've heard native speakers say it both ways. Is one way more correct than another, or is it a regional thing?
Zina, Yes on the Sliabh thing on all counts.
Jig = Port
Reel = Ríl
Slip Jig = Port Luasca
Polka = pólca
Spellings change region to region but those are the generals
So how do you PRONOUNCE all that, Brad? And what IS the joke with An Phis Fluch, anyway? (So e-mail me directly if it's really all that dirty. *grin*) And how do you pronounce "A chairde"?
zls
They're all pretty much pronounced the same as in english, Port Luasca is roughly pronounced Port LOO-shka. An Phis Fliuch IS dirty, better off just calling it "The Choice Wife" . I'm not familier with An Chairde so I won't attempt. I only know bits & pieces of Irish but Martin or Cathal could probably glint some good knowledge on that question.
~b
Let's see, what else? *grin* How about "Beir Bua", which I think is "talk to you later", right? How's that pronounced? And how do the vowel sounds change when there's an accent going one way or another on them? -- I'm assuming that an í is "ee", and ó is "oh", given the above. What about á and ú? "bh" is pronounced with a v, I know, and "mh" is a w, I think?
And please correct me here, somebody -- doesn't Gaeilge usually have the emphasis on the first syllable as a general rule?
Ah, the mother tongue...what a beautiful language.
In respect to everybody that uses this site, it's not fair to write in Irish, as there is a world of difference between the written and the spoken language.
On another thread, I think Zina pointed out that ITM is an aural tradition, and so it is with the language too. There are so many rules and connotations within the written language that it is difficult to translate and convey to anyone who does not speak the language, even to a moderate level.
Zina, if you are serious about learning, then forget the rules...you need somebody to teach you as they would teach first words and language to a child - please don't be offended by the comparison, but the best way to learn Irish is through bilingual comparison - ceol, music: rince, dance: chara, friend...that sort of thing. I'm teaching my son Irish and English as his speech develops, so that he can talk in either and make his own way with it...but teaching him the written rules is something I don't think I would like to take on.
The Irish language is a beautiful and poetic language and I would encourage everybody with an interest to learn some of it...but, as with everything else....knowing it, and writing it here, should not be used to exclude others.
yes martin. i totally agree. people should speak IN ENGLISH AND NOT IN IRISH when they are around people who are unfortunately not able to speak the language.
it is simply not fair
im glad u have changed your attitude martin.
pity u couldnt have done so a month ago in bunbeg
hopefully u arent being a hypocrite and are going to change your mind again but we'll soon see.
niamh
Give Martin a bit of room. I love the language, though I'm horrible at learning it. Might have something to do with speaking it and being corrected every time I try a bit of Gaelic on a Gaelic speaker (depending on the locality of the gaelic speaker I'm speaking to). Wouldn't this world be a bit less interesting if Gaelic were not a living language?
It has been said that people who do not know the Gaelic language cannot play a traditional air properly. Furthermore, it has been said that let them play their reels and their jigs, it's the air that will sort them out! If that's true, perhaps there is a place for a bit of Gaelic in this forum.
BTW, 'An Chairde' might be translated as 'dear friends'. I understand the phonetics as being AHN KARD-YA (with a slight J before the -YA).
Andy's right. After three years of trying to learn Irish and feeling like I was getting nowhere, I gave up. Even lessons with a native born speaker didn't help. But I was able to figure out most of Cathal's post, and I know what a Chappail Marbh is! But, arrrrgh! Those spelling changes confuse me! Every so often I try again with the books and tapes, but it never lasts.
Anyway, that's how I got into Clannad (before they went New Agey). They sang in Irish and I thought it might help me to listen to the language in a more natural setting. Now it seems like many of the bands do songs in Irish but back in the 80's it was pretty rare. BRD (Before River Dance!)
Hello! I'm sorry if i've annoyed somebody with the use of Irish in here, just I was wondering M'airtín's experiences in Spain, for, I reckon, he was looking around for some music. Ar aon chaoi (anyway), thanks for the words of support of some of yous; and yes, it's a good idea to teach some words related to Irish music in Irish.
By the way, Sliabh is the correct word in Irish (Slieve is an anglisation of the Irish word) and the pronunciation is "shleea" in Conamara and "Shleeav" in Munster, maybe M'airtín can give you some idea of the Donegal pronounciation.
I'm new to the discussion board here (a friend of the fiddler on vermouth), but on this topic, it was great having to read that bit of Irish from Cathal. I can read & understand Irish, but am never really forced to speak it, so having it on a discussion board makes me make the effort. However, definitely the translations are good. How else can people learn if they do want to? As long as there aren't any ellitest connotations, nár lagaí Dia thú! (meaning ... sort of ... more power to you)
Nár lagaí Dia thú - more power to you
nawr la -gee dee-ah who
Ádh mór - good luck, or cheers
awg more
(& searaí - sher - ee)
That's how I'd pronounce those... there are loads of different dialects though, with different pronounciations. A trick if someone's being a bit of a muppet about this... if they're overly correcting u when you are trying to speak irish & not being helpfull, just tell them you're speaking a different dialect i.e. Donegal Irish or something ;) most people will be really helpfull though & happy that you're learning it.
If u want to practice you're irish, our web site is translated - http://fianna.f2g.net & click on 'as Gaeilge'.
I've never been around native Irish speakers long enough to pick up anything, and I was struggling (still am, I guess) with the annotations in Breathnach's Ceol Rince na hEireann tune collections. So I bought a Gaelic/English dictionary, and it has helped with reading the words.
For me, pronunciation is a shot in the dark. When a few of us started playing enough gigs to justify coming up with a name for our "band," we settled on Sa Cheo, from the tune Sean Sa Cheo. (Sorry--not sure how to put those accent marks in here.) If you'd heard us play, you'd understand that it was very appropriate to call ourselves "In the Fog." But then everyone started "correcting" our pronunciation.
We started with "Sha KAY-oh," but then someone who'd spent time in Galway said, no, that'd be "Suh Key-oh," and then we heard all sorts of variables, ending with Sean Smyth at a music festival making me repeat "Sss Kyoh" for five minutes until he felt I had it. Our American audiences always got a laugh out of a band honest enough to call themselves "Sucky-Oh."
The problem here is the "diphthong" (not irish, from the greek "Diphthongos" lit. two sounds) A Diphthong is what seems to be one vowel sound, but is actually made up of two. For example the word "Read" in American english it is generally pronounced
_
Re d
Whereas a Scotsman might pronounce it
_
Ra d
One of the primary things that makes up accents is which vowel in the diphthong gets the emphasis & for how long.
This happens a lot in Gaeilge, which makes things very regional from what I've observed.
I'm not sure the name for it, but another thing that makes up accents is inserting sounds that aren't present in the word. For example a New Yorker saying "Idear" instead of "Idea" or an Irishman saying "Styew" for Stew.
The insertion of that y (with a touch of j) sound is what old timers refer to as the "Na" which is usually only pronouncable by native irish-speakers. If a non-native is playing for some old irish folks & they say "He/she's got the Na" it means the player is doing it right.
It's also present in words like Ceol, Cheo, Chara etc.
One time I was out drinking with some French speaking folks one night & they were trying to teach me a thing or two in French. The one person was constantly after me to pronounce everything in a perfect Parisian accent. I kept trying but couldn't get it right, then it dawned on me that she was speaking English with an accent & I wasn't correcting her. When i did put on a fake "pepe-le-pew" accent I only made them laugh harder, so the moral of the story is if your not Irish don't try to throw on a "Lucky the Leprechaun" accent when your poping out some words in irish. but rather relax & just accept your god given accent. You'll probably sound better anyway & most Irish Speakers I know are quick to give you a few more words & phrases when they hear you make a good attempt. kinda like the tunes at a session.
hey, sorry guys, was angry there about the hypocrital thing i referred to but u guys dont know about that and dont want to know about it so ill not go down that road.
yeh i would so love to be able to learn the irish language but it is not fair because i do not do it in school.
tough life..
but Caoimghgin, just goin back to ur point, i totally and utterly disagree with u! u say that anyone who cannot speak the irish language traditionally cannot play an irish air! im sorry but that is the furthest from the truth!
where i live irish is not commonly spoken. in fact it just isnt. but i know the best musicians who live in this area and i have never heard a sweeter air being played by anyone. whats more, they've difficulty speaking english never mind irish!!!!!!
just thought id give my point of view there.
sorry again about that
yes, gaelic is a lovely thing to have in this website but unfortunately not everyone will be able to be included in the discussions if they are going to be in irish.
regards
niamh
Día Duit ! (howdy in irish)
My point of using the odd bit of gaeilic on the site on topics to do with music after this dies down is so that it will consequently help every one else. for example if they ever come here to eire (ireland) and so that they might not be tottaly lost and when they open a brethnach book or some of them comhaltas programs.
the thing about the slow air and the irish language in my opinion has been widely mis-interpreted, slow airs are normally taken from songs, well all are apart from modern ones even o carolan used gaeilic poetry to help him write his music.
the point is that it helps you to understand the theme of the air aswell as the tone it also helps you hugely with phrasing.
for example, take tá me mo shuí (i am awake) a song from altans blackwater. from the title you would think that the man had just too much coffee, however if you take the full song and translate it, you find that its a amhrán grá (love song) and if you think of the story, it helps get you into the mood and tell the audience about the background to it. which is always a good thing.you are also able to tie the singers phrasing in with your own wich i think helps significantly.
and another thing !
dont mind the accents or pronunciation (or my spellin for that matter !) its more fun when you use your own! as mad baloney and will harmon found out. after all thats what music and the irish culture is about ! just do your best, my irish is even questionable !
i just think that its far nicer and more cultural to use the odd bit of simple irish. you dont have to be fluent or do it sa scoil (in school) ! and as long as gach duine(everyone)use it with a translation as we have been doing! so nobody is beeing left out.
and who said anything about turning this into an irish site !
Holy mother of God ! (irish slang) , Leámh an sliócht ! ( read the piece!) - what my irish teacher keeps telling me anyhow !
Nár lagaí Dia thú AGÚS DO GAEILGE !!!!! (and your irish!)
Slán !
Mairtin, this is good fun and helps to no end when you use an Irish phrase and include the translation right after! I'd like to see a bunch of phrases relevant to music and sessioning, such as how to ask for another pint, or where the loo is, and please and thank you. (Given my playing, it would also be very useful to know several ways to apologize. )
Joining the discussion for the first time.....I agree with Martin's latest comments......It is well worth while learning what the song is about in order to give a better performance of the song (I actually think it is essential to learn what the song is about to present it properly).....The audience does appreciate the explanation of the song and it does get them in the mood....It is just as important in the Slow Airs. Since there are no words, the audience needs to know what emotion is being presented.....Of course, they could probably figure it out by the way it is played but if the musician does not know what the composer intended then the tradition is not passed on....
Dia duit !
Cá bhfuil an leathras? - wheres the toilette !
ka will an lehras
Tá bron orm - im sorry (as pronounsed)
Póg mó thón - kiss my ass ! - ok its a bit rude but everyone knows this one and it isnt normally not taken as an insult.
cupla phort eile - another few tunes!
koopla fort ela
Sláinte - litteraly means health, its our version of cheers. they use this one in scotland too.
pionta - as far as i know is a pint. and then pionta eile,- another pint.
Go raibh mile maith agat - Thanks a million !
go row meela my agat
and i suppose its a bit late for this one but it isnt spelled crack, its craic . and ceol & craic are taken almost as the same word, thats why i always stress that the point of music is for fun.
Chuir stocaí istigh ann ! - put a sock in it ! - this one can come in very usefull.
draiocht - magic - if someone refuses to let u record their music, its normally because as they say,"it takes the draiocht out of it"
There is a bar in Billings Montana named Pug Mahon's--a euphemistic spelling. The owner apparently enjoys thinking of all these people mouthing an insult in response to the question, "Where do you want to go out tonight?"
Go raibh mile maith agat, Mairtin, for the musician's practical Irish primer.
I don't think it's euphemistic. It's actually a quite near pronuntiation of the "kissy" expression mentioned above. They obviously wanted to make a sort of play on words.
Well, I came in late, but now that I'm here I might as well have an opinion about something... let's see... Ooh, I know... On the topic of posting in Irish. I actually like it. I don't find it rude at all, whether or not I understand it. I appreciate translations, but if they aren't included and I don't want to wrestle with my dictionary ... (this from searai: "Here's the lyrics of that song we're working on - if you can't find the words in your dictionary, try leaving out the "h"s, and / or the third from last letter and any letter that rhymes with "spree", and for certain words you can drop the last few letters. etc, etc...") I can always skip the post. Or just half listen to it, as I do at the pub when people lapse into Irish. I appreciate the diversity. I don't find it rude unless the purpose of speaking Irish is to say nasty things about a non-speaker (but then, how would I know?). Cathal, Mairtin, Bring it on.
Its hard to believe, but there are as far as i know NO sware words in gaeilge, apart from póg mo thón, and thats normally meant as a joke.
As much as i can, i go to sessions in the gaeltacht, after all its only a few miles up the road and i was in teelin last night, (unfortunatly mairead and dermot werent there!!!)
but i have never came across anybody saying anything insulting about anyone even the worst of players, they just give them more encoragement so i assume it doesnt happen and thats why i flew of the rocker when mairead/niamh had a dive at the box,
but i assume that you would know because they would be staring at you , i know that from spain, when they would look over at me and start laughing. (was i dressed that bad!)
but no, it doesnt happen believe it or not.
and cathail, cá bhfuil tú ? (where are ye!)
Slán
Máirtín.
hello everyone!
i want to apologise again for that conversation which has rattled An Ceoltoir so much.
i take it back, all of it
i heard a tape of ceili band music yesterday that was brilliant!!! what is more is that the real driving force of the ceili band was the piano accordion.
i really take it back An Ceoltoir. the piano accordion added so much spirit to the music.
sorry once again
oh, happy easter everybody!!
Mairead
I'm sorry for the delay,but I was on holidays, gabh mo leathscéil (I'm sorry). A Mháirtín, tá mé ar ais anseo aríst (I'm back here again).
Hey Will, don't worry about the name of the band; well, I'd pronounce 'Sa Cheo' somewhat similar to "ss hyo", more or less,but you don't need to pronouce it perfectly right; there are some Irish speakers that cannot pronouce Irish very well. Apart from that,if you need any help with Breandán Breathnach's Ceol Rince na hÉireann just tell me.
Pička vam materina gamadi irska!Vi serite na svom jeziku, ja ću srat na svom.Hrvati su jako super i želim samo reć da ste jako glupi zato kaj ne znate hrvatski. To je sve.Ako ikad dođete na Balkan, zatući ćemo vas!
Dunja, I don't understand much of that, but I think the correct answer is, "No, I don't speak Croatian." Is there much Irish Tradtional music where you are?
as Gaeilge
as Gaeilge
A chairde!
Cá bhfuil na gaeilgeoirí? Níl duine ar bith ag scríobh rud ar bith as Gaeilge.
Cén áit atá tú, a Mháirtín?
Ba mhaith liom Gaeilge a léamh ar an áit seo, mar sin.
Slán go foill!
Cathal Mac Seoirse.
# Posted on March 14th 2002 by mac seoirse
Re: as Gaeilge
Cathal,
Don't you think you're flogging a chappail marbh here?
You started this very same discussion a while back. There's no need to start another discussion just to say exactly what you said last time.
Why not start a discussion about something related to music? If you want to post in Irish, English or Spanish, that's fine.
# Posted on March 14th 2002 by Jeremy
Re: as Gaeilge
Tá mé anseo a chairde ! agus mar a duirt me an t-ám deireadh, is rud iontach maith, an gaeilge usaid mar cosuil le an ceol, is pairt mór den cúltuir gaelach é ach níl seo an ait is fear le é a usaid mar níl gaeilge ag na daoine eile is mór an trua agus mar sin, tá tú ag "isolating " siad.
Is brea liom do attitude go dtí gaeilge mar sin, ma bhfuil tú ag iarraigh, an rud is fear le dheannamh ga tá do sliocht a scriobh i ngaeilge agus i mbearla mar sin, beidh tú ag usaid gaeilge agus ní bheidh tú ag chuir aon duine amach. agus mar a duirt jeremy, is fear leat, labhairt faoí rud ceolmhar.
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What cathail is trying to say is that the irish is a huge part of the irish culture and that we should make an effort to use as much of it as possible on this site , even if it is only a few words.
what i said then was that he should translate what he said in irish into english as so he isnt isolating anybody who dosnt have irish from the conversation and then have a more musical disscusion.
Mairtín.
# Posted on March 16th 2002 by martin t
Re: as Gaeilge
Personally, I'd love to learn Gaelige, but it seems to take an awful lot of time to learn...I can't quite make head or tails of all the rules. Mairtin, Cathal, would you perhaps like to teach us some Gaelige? How about starting with words and phrases that are common in the music? How to pronounce is particularly important, I think, as the letters for the various sounds don't look anything like what they sound like when written in the English alphabet.
Even if we can manage enough to decode how to say some of the tune titles in Gaelige or at least translate, I'd be happy!
Zina
# Posted on March 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: as Gaeilge
I totally agree with Zina!!!
Share the knowledge! ...it would be greatly appreciated
Nora*
# Posted on March 17th 2002 by nora*
Re: as Gaeilge
I'm with you Mairtín, but unfortunately my Irish is still very poor.
Zina had a lovely idea, perhaps ye could help us to learn some basic rules ans phrases.
Just think about it. Every single thing that can promote the irish culture has my entire support.
Your idea of posting in Irish and English at the same time is fine by me.
Toni.
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: as Gaeilge
If someone posts in Irish I'm fine with that, I think it'd be a great occasional diversion & a chance to work on the the little Irish I have. However I come to this site to learn tunes & chat about music - I'm sure there are sites like thesession.org that are dedicated to Irish Language.
In short I guess I'm saying post in whatever language you can (or want) but just keep the emphasis on the music.
PS. Hats of to Martin for the translation
~b
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: as Gaeilge
Yes, it's lovely to know what the heck Cathal was saying, Mairtin!
So...to start, is it right that Sliabh or Slieve means mountain, and it can be pronounced "sleeve" or "shleeve"? I've heard native speakers say it both ways. Is one way more correct than another, or is it a regional thing?
And how do you say "jig" and "reel" in Gaeilge?
Zina
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: as Gaeilge
Zina, Yes on the Sliabh thing on all counts.
Jig = Port
Reel = Ríl
Slip Jig = Port Luasca
Polka = pólca
Spellings change region to region but those are the generals
~b
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: as Gaeilge
So how do you PRONOUNCE all that, Brad? And what IS the joke with An Phis Fluch, anyway? (So e-mail me directly if it's really all that dirty. *grin*) And how do you pronounce "A chairde"?
zls
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: as Gaeilge
They're all pretty much pronounced the same as in english, Port Luasca is roughly pronounced Port LOO-shka. An Phis Fliuch IS dirty, better off just calling it "The Choice Wife" . I'm not familier with An Chairde so I won't attempt. I only know bits & pieces of Irish but Martin or Cathal could probably glint some good knowledge on that question.
~b
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: as Gaeilge
Let's see, what else? *grin* How about "Beir Bua", which I think is "talk to you later", right? How's that pronounced? And how do the vowel sounds change when there's an accent going one way or another on them? -- I'm assuming that an í is "ee", and ó is "oh", given the above. What about á and ú? "bh" is pronounced with a v, I know, and "mh" is a w, I think?
And please correct me here, somebody -- doesn't Gaeilge usually have the emphasis on the first syllable as a general rule?
Zina
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: as Gaeilge
Ah, the mother tongue...what a beautiful language.
In respect to everybody that uses this site, it's not fair to write in Irish, as there is a world of difference between the written and the spoken language.
On another thread, I think Zina pointed out that ITM is an aural tradition, and so it is with the language too. There are so many rules and connotations within the written language that it is difficult to translate and convey to anyone who does not speak the language, even to a moderate level.
Zina, if you are serious about learning, then forget the rules...you need somebody to teach you as they would teach first words and language to a child - please don't be offended by the comparison, but the best way to learn Irish is through bilingual comparison - ceol, music: rince, dance: chara, friend...that sort of thing. I'm teaching my son Irish and English as his speech develops, so that he can talk in either and make his own way with it...but teaching him the written rules is something I don't think I would like to take on.
The Irish language is a beautiful and poetic language and I would encourage everybody with an interest to learn some of it...but, as with everything else....knowing it, and writing it here, should not be used to exclude others.
Is mise le meas (yours respectfully)
Aindriu (Andy)
# Posted on March 18th 2002 by Mcbear365
Martin havent u changed your tune??
yes martin. i totally agree. people should speak IN ENGLISH AND NOT IN IRISH when they are around people who are unfortunately not able to speak the language.
it is simply not fair
im glad u have changed your attitude martin.
pity u couldnt have done so a month ago in bunbeg
hopefully u arent being a hypocrite and are going to change your mind again but we'll soon see.
niamh
# Posted on March 20th 2002 by Niamh
Re: as Gaeilge
Ah, Niamh!
Give Martin a bit of room. I love the language, though I'm horrible at learning it. Might have something to do with speaking it and being corrected every time I try a bit of Gaelic on a Gaelic speaker (depending on the locality of the gaelic speaker I'm speaking to). Wouldn't this world be a bit less interesting if Gaelic were not a living language?
It has been said that people who do not know the Gaelic language cannot play a traditional air properly. Furthermore, it has been said that let them play their reels and their jigs, it's the air that will sort them out! If that's true, perhaps there is a place for a bit of Gaelic in this forum.
BTW, 'An Chairde' might be translated as 'dear friends'. I understand the phonetics as being AHN KARD-YA (with a slight J before the -YA).
Slán!
# Posted on March 20th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: as Gaeilge
Andy's right. After three years of trying to learn Irish and feeling like I was getting nowhere, I gave up. Even lessons with a native born speaker didn't help. But I was able to figure out most of Cathal's post, and I know what a Chappail Marbh is! But, arrrrgh! Those spelling changes confuse me! Every so often I try again with the books and tapes, but it never lasts.
Anyway, that's how I got into Clannad (before they went New Agey). They sang in Irish and I thought it might help me to listen to the language in a more natural setting. Now it seems like many of the bands do songs in Irish but back in the 80's it was pretty rare. BRD (Before River Dance!)
# Posted on March 21st 2002 by soft black stars
Re: as Gaeilge
Hello! I'm sorry if i've annoyed somebody with the use of Irish in here, just I was wondering M'airtín's experiences in Spain, for, I reckon, he was looking around for some music. Ar aon chaoi (anyway), thanks for the words of support of some of yous; and yes, it's a good idea to teach some words related to Irish music in Irish.
By the way, Sliabh is the correct word in Irish (Slieve is an anglisation of the Irish word) and the pronunciation is "shleea" in Conamara and "Shleeav" in Munster, maybe M'airtín can give you some idea of the Donegal pronounciation.
Gabh mo leithscéal! (I'm sorry!)
Slán go foill!
# Posted on March 21st 2002 by mac seoirse
Re: as Gaeilge
I'm new to the discussion board here (a friend of the fiddler on vermouth), but on this topic, it was great having to read that bit of Irish from Cathal. I can read & understand Irish, but am never really forced to speak it, so having it on a discussion board makes me make the effort. However, definitely the translations are good. How else can people learn if they do want to? As long as there aren't any ellitest connotations, nár lagaí Dia thú! (meaning ... sort of ... more power to you)
Ádh mór,
searaí
# Posted on March 22nd 2002 by searai
Re: as Gaeilge
So....how do you pronounce that, Searai?
# Posted on March 22nd 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: as Gaeilge
Nár lagaí Dia thú - more power to you
nawr la -gee dee-ah who
Ádh mór - good luck, or cheers
awg more
(& searaí - sher - ee)
That's how I'd pronounce those... there are loads of different dialects though, with different pronounciations. A trick if someone's being a bit of a muppet about this... if they're overly correcting u when you are trying to speak irish & not being helpfull, just tell them you're speaking a different dialect i.e. Donegal Irish or something ;) most people will be really helpfull though & happy that you're learning it.
If u want to practice you're irish, our web site is translated - http://fianna.f2g.net & click on 'as Gaeilge'.
once again, Ádh mór,
searaí
# Posted on March 22nd 2002 by searai
Re: as Gaeilge
Great, thanks, Searaí and Cathal! Where's the emphasis on the syllables, though?
I may learn a few phrases yet.
Zina
# Posted on March 22nd 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: as Gaeilge
I've never been around native Irish speakers long enough to pick up anything, and I was struggling (still am, I guess) with the annotations in Breathnach's Ceol Rince na hEireann tune collections. So I bought a Gaelic/English dictionary, and it has helped with reading the words.
For me, pronunciation is a shot in the dark. When a few of us started playing enough gigs to justify coming up with a name for our "band," we settled on Sa Cheo, from the tune Sean Sa Cheo. (Sorry--not sure how to put those accent marks in here.) If you'd heard us play, you'd understand that it was very appropriate to call ourselves "In the Fog." But then everyone started "correcting" our pronunciation.
We started with "Sha KAY-oh," but then someone who'd spent time in Galway said, no, that'd be "Suh Key-oh," and then we heard all sorts of variables, ending with Sean Smyth at a music festival making me repeat "Sss Kyoh" for five minutes until he felt I had it. Our American audiences always got a laugh out of a band honest enough to call themselves "Sucky-Oh."
Alternate pronunciations are welcome.....
# Posted on March 22nd 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: as Gaeilge
heeheeheee...that's a great story, Will...
# Posted on March 22nd 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: as Gaeilge
The problem here is the "diphthong" (not irish, from the greek "Diphthongos" lit. two sounds) A Diphthong is what seems to be one vowel sound, but is actually made up of two. For example the word "Read" in American english it is generally pronounced
_
Re d
Whereas a Scotsman might pronounce it
_
Ra d
One of the primary things that makes up accents is which vowel in the diphthong gets the emphasis & for how long.
This happens a lot in Gaeilge, which makes things very regional from what I've observed.
I'm not sure the name for it, but another thing that makes up accents is inserting sounds that aren't present in the word. For example a New Yorker saying "Idear" instead of "Idea" or an Irishman saying "Styew" for Stew.
The insertion of that y (with a touch of j) sound is what old timers refer to as the "Na" which is usually only pronouncable by native irish-speakers. If a non-native is playing for some old irish folks & they say "He/she's got the Na" it means the player is doing it right.
It's also present in words like Ceol, Cheo, Chara etc.
One time I was out drinking with some French speaking folks one night & they were trying to teach me a thing or two in French. The one person was constantly after me to pronounce everything in a perfect Parisian accent. I kept trying but couldn't get it right, then it dawned on me that she was speaking English with an accent & I wasn't correcting her. When i did put on a fake "pepe-le-pew" accent I only made them laugh harder, so the moral of the story is if your not Irish don't try to throw on a "Lucky the Leprechaun" accent when your poping out some words in irish. but rather relax & just accept your god given accent. You'll probably sound better anyway & most Irish Speakers I know are quick to give you a few more words & phrases when they hear you make a good attempt. kinda like the tunes at a session.
Wait isn't this site for music?
~b
# Posted on March 22nd 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: as Gaeilge
hey, sorry guys, was angry there about the hypocrital thing i referred to but u guys dont know about that and dont want to know about it so ill not go down that road.
yeh i would so love to be able to learn the irish language but it is not fair because i do not do it in school.
tough life..
but Caoimghgin, just goin back to ur point, i totally and utterly disagree with u! u say that anyone who cannot speak the irish language traditionally cannot play an irish air! im sorry but that is the furthest from the truth!
where i live irish is not commonly spoken. in fact it just isnt. but i know the best musicians who live in this area and i have never heard a sweeter air being played by anyone. whats more, they've difficulty speaking english never mind irish!!!!!!
just thought id give my point of view there.
sorry again about that
yes, gaelic is a lovely thing to have in this website but unfortunately not everyone will be able to be included in the discussions if they are going to be in irish.
regards
niamh
# Posted on March 23rd 2002 by Niamh
Arais go dtí an bpointe (back to the point!)
Día Duit ! (howdy in irish)
My point of using the odd bit of gaeilic on the site on topics to do with music after this dies down is so that it will consequently help every one else. for example if they ever come here to eire (ireland) and so that they might not be tottaly lost and when they open a brethnach book or some of them comhaltas programs.
the thing about the slow air and the irish language in my opinion has been widely mis-interpreted, slow airs are normally taken from songs, well all are apart from modern ones even o carolan used gaeilic poetry to help him write his music.
the point is that it helps you to understand the theme of the air aswell as the tone it also helps you hugely with phrasing.
for example, take tá me mo shuí (i am awake) a song from altans blackwater. from the title you would think that the man had just too much coffee, however if you take the full song and translate it, you find that its a amhrán grá (love song) and if you think of the story, it helps get you into the mood and tell the audience about the background to it. which is always a good thing.you are also able to tie the singers phrasing in with your own wich i think helps significantly.
and another thing !
dont mind the accents or pronunciation (or my spellin for that matter !) its more fun when you use your own! as mad baloney and will harmon found out. after all thats what music and the irish culture is about ! just do your best, my irish is even questionable !
i just think that its far nicer and more cultural to use the odd bit of simple irish. you dont have to be fluent or do it sa scoil (in school) ! and as long as gach duine(everyone)use it with a translation as we have been doing! so nobody is beeing left out.
and who said anything about turning this into an irish site !
Holy mother of God ! (irish slang) , Leámh an sliócht ! ( read the piece!) - what my irish teacher keeps telling me anyhow !
Nár lagaí Dia thú AGÚS DO GAEILGE !!!!! (and your irish!)
Slán !
Mairtín.
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by martin t
Re: as Gaeilge
Mairtin, this is good fun and helps to no end when you use an Irish phrase and include the translation right after! I'd like to see a bunch of phrases relevant to music and sessioning, such as how to ask for another pint, or where the loo is, and please and thank you. (Given my playing, it would also be very useful to know several ways to apologize.
)
Please keep it up!
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: as Gaeilge
Joining the discussion for the first time.....I agree with Martin's latest comments......It is well worth while learning what the song is about in order to give a better performance of the song (I actually think it is essential to learn what the song is about to present it properly).....The audience does appreciate the explanation of the song and it does get them in the mood....It is just as important in the Slow Airs. Since there are no words, the audience needs to know what emotion is being presented.....Of course, they could probably figure it out by the way it is played but if the musician does not know what the composer intended then the tradition is not passed on....
Slan (slawn) - goodbye!
Fintan
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by fintan7
Cúpla focal ! (a few words)
Dia duit !
Cá bhfuil an leathras? - wheres the toilette !
ka will an lehras
Tá bron orm - im sorry (as pronounsed)
Póg mó thón - kiss my ass ! - ok its a bit rude but everyone knows this one and it isnt normally not taken as an insult.
cupla phort eile - another few tunes!
koopla fort ela
Sláinte - litteraly means health, its our version of cheers. they use this one in scotland too.
pionta - as far as i know is a pint. and then pionta eile,- another pint.
Go raibh mile maith agat - Thanks a million !
go row meela my agat
and i suppose its a bit late for this one but it isnt spelled crack, its craic . and ceol & craic are taken almost as the same word, thats why i always stress that the point of music is for fun.
Chuir stocaí istigh ann ! - put a sock in it ! - this one can come in very usefull.
draiocht - magic - if someone refuses to let u record their music, its normally because as they say,"it takes the draiocht out of it"
and slán ! bye,
# Posted on March 24th 2002 by martin t
Re: as Gaeilge
There is a bar in Billings Montana named Pug Mahon's--a euphemistic spelling. The owner apparently enjoys thinking of all these people mouthing an insult in response to the question, "Where do you want to go out tonight?"
Go raibh mile maith agat, Mairtin, for the musician's practical Irish primer.
# Posted on March 25th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: as Gaeilge
Will,
I don't think it's euphemistic. It's actually a quite near pronuntiation of the "kissy" expression mentioned above. They obviously wanted to make a sort of play on words.
# Posted on March 25th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: as Gaeilge
On Seel street in Liverpool there's a bar that's called pogue mahone.There's a session there on Wednesday nights.
# Posted on March 25th 2002 by biggus dave
Re: as Gaeilge
Well, I came in late, but now that I'm here I might as well have an opinion about something... let's see... Ooh, I know... On the topic of posting in Irish. I actually like it. I don't find it rude at all, whether or not I understand it. I appreciate translations, but if they aren't included and I don't want to wrestle with my dictionary ... (this from searai: "Here's the lyrics of that song we're working on - if you can't find the words in your dictionary, try leaving out the "h"s, and / or the third from last letter and any letter that rhymes with "spree", and for certain words you can drop the last few letters. etc, etc...") I can always skip the post. Or just half listen to it, as I do at the pub when people lapse into Irish. I appreciate the diversity. I don't find it rude unless the purpose of speaking Irish is to say nasty things about a non-speaker (but then, how would I know?). Cathal, Mairtin, Bring it on.
# Posted on March 27th 2002 by Kerri Brown
A polite language ?
Its hard to believe, but there are as far as i know NO sware words in gaeilge, apart from póg mo thón, and thats normally meant as a joke.
As much as i can, i go to sessions in the gaeltacht, after all its only a few miles up the road and i was in teelin last night, (unfortunatly mairead and dermot werent there!!!)
but i have never came across anybody saying anything insulting about anyone even the worst of players, they just give them more encoragement so i assume it doesnt happen and thats why i flew of the rocker when mairead/niamh had a dive at the box,
but i assume that you would know because they would be staring at you , i know that from spain, when they would look over at me and start laughing. (was i dressed that bad!)
but no, it doesnt happen believe it or not.
and cathail, cá bhfuil tú ? (where are ye!)
Slán
Máirtín.
# Posted on March 30th 2002 by martin t
Re: as Gaeilge
hello everyone!
i want to apologise again for that conversation which has rattled An Ceoltoir so much.
i take it back, all of it
i heard a tape of ceili band music yesterday that was brilliant!!! what is more is that the real driving force of the ceili band was the piano accordion.
i really take it back An Ceoltoir. the piano accordion added so much spirit to the music.
sorry once again
oh, happy easter everybody!!
Mairead
# Posted on March 31st 2002 by Tune_fanatic
Re: as Gaeilge
Mairtin,
Where in Spain did that happen??
As far as I know, there's not much ITM tradition in most parts of Spain (or at least where I live), so this takes me by surprise
# Posted on March 31st 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: as Gaeilge
Found this:
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/foclora/abhair/riomhaire.html
useful, if you want to know how to say "random access file" in Irish.
# Posted on April 5th 2002 by glauber
Re: as Gaeilge
I'm sorry for the delay,but I was on holidays, gabh mo leathscéil (I'm sorry). A Mháirtín, tá mé ar ais anseo aríst (I'm back here again).
Hey Will, don't worry about the name of the band; well, I'd pronounce 'Sa Cheo' somewhat similar to "ss hyo", more or less,but you don't need to pronouce it perfectly right; there are some Irish speakers that cannot pronouce Irish very well. Apart from that,if you need any help with Breandán Breathnach's Ceol Rince na hÉireann just tell me.
Feicfidh mé sibhse! (See yous!)
Slán.
# Posted on April 9th 2002 by mac seoirse
Re: as Gaeilge
Pička vam materina gamadi irska!Vi serite na svom jeziku, ja ću srat na svom.Hrvati su jako super i želim samo reć da ste jako glupi zato kaj ne znate hrvatski. To je sve.Ako ikad dođete na Balkan, zatući ćemo vas!
# Posted on September 24th 2002 by dunja
Re: as Gaeilge
Dunja, I don't understand much of that, but I think the correct answer is, "No, I don't speak Croatian." Is there much Irish Tradtional music where you are?
Vai kads siten te prot latviski?
# Posted on September 24th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig