hello!
just found the message board again, last time i posted was when i was just about to start my GCSE composition of an irish reel. it is now complete
right, ive just got back from warwick folk festival. i went to a few sessions playing my fiddle but ended up listening to the guitarists and bouzouki players. i love the accomniments they provide to tunes.
to me the guitar seems so more complicated than the fiddle, different tunings, capo's, being able to play the same note on different strings at different frets,finger picking etc etc.
i have now tuned my dads guitar down to DADGAD, and have found afew chords on the internet.
what chords do most people use whilst playing tunes? there are thousands on this site. some weird ones. i have tried accompnying afew tunes, using the chord D maj/min which is 050200. this chord seems to fit every bar of the tune. what do you do then folks?
when people put capo's on. how do they know where to put the capo on, is there any way of working it out?do you have to learn a totally new set of chords for every capo position or do the chords move too?
I was just listening to my friend play guitar at a session last night. What I like about his playing is that he learns the tune and tailors his accompaniment to each tune. He is an accomplished guitarist and does all this in standard tuning. Lucky I was sitting next to him cos if you were at a distance the other guitar players (yes I'm afraid so, and four bodhrans) blurred him into one messy noise.
You have discovered something about DADGAD that sums up why I don't like it in 99% of players that use it. Yes you can theoretically accompany every tune with much the same chord - with the result that the individuality in each tune, a fragile thing at the best of times, gets drowned out.
The guitar's about the easiest instrument to get started on, but the hardest to play with individuality and restraint. Good luck.
Best place to start -- find yourself an experienced guitar player to learn from. Try to find one who is enthusiastic about all tunings, not just one, because you don't want to be limited to knowledge and learning about only one kind of tuning.
Lots of tune books don't have chords, but this fairly standard one (see below) kick-started my interest in this music some years ago (I was playing guitar to my son's fiddle)- it's still in stock in the local music shop and you can get it on Amazon:
"Jigs, Reels and Hornpipes: Traditional Fiddle Tunes from England, Ireland and Scotland". Although I'm now mostly playing mandolin, I always browse the fiddle section in music shops (am I allowed to do that? - sometimes I have a go at scraping away at a fiddle but it's torture for anyone within earshot) - I bought the Fiddlers Fakebook recently - that's got very useful chords for guitar accompaniment and lots of Irish tunes. Maybe someone else can recommend books or websites specifically for guitar.
Until you know what you're doing, keep it simple. There's also lots of interesting chord positions in standard tuning which you could investigate before attempting open tunings. Also, using the correct rhythms and working on damping techniques is as important as learning the chords. If you wish to learn "tune accompaniment", try to find a teacher or player of this style who can show you. The biggest menaces in sessions are not usually the beginners but those who have learned some other style of guitar playing and assume(often arrogantly) that they can transfer their "skills" directly to traditional music.
I'd recommend you buy Chris Smith's book "Celtic Back-up for all instrumentalists" at a later date. It's excellent but probably not for beginners.
One thing though, I don’t think guitar is easier than fiddle or vice versa.
It’s like saying 100meters is easier than 1000m.
Well it is easier to finish it, but to be “good” at it you have to do it within a certain time
I agree with Bren’s comments on DADGAD to an extent but I wouldn’t write DADGAD off either.
More importantly you should learn how to be a sensitive guitarist, best place to start there is with
Lessons from a trad guitarist, if not have a look at some instruction videos/books.
I’d recommend John Doyles video for rhythm, and Frank Kilkelly’s book for different approaches.
Also Chris Smith’s book on Accompaniment which goes into detail about different modes in Trad.
Be familiar with the structure of ITM, rhythms, modes etc
One thing that melody players often give out about guitarists is “chord bashing” which I don’t think neccessairly means
playing loudly, rather bashing out the wrong chords at the wrong time, playing your favourite D-Major three chord trick
when the tune is in D mixolydian - or continuing on with those chords even though the tune has changed.
To back a tune, you should really know it - unless you very accomplished with loads of backing experience, and
know fully the pitfalls of backing a tune you don’t know.
Listen to as many guitarists as possible – Paul Brady/Ian Carr/John Doyle/Denis Cahill/Steve Cooney/Donagh Hennessey
Art Mcglynn/Michael O Domhnaill.
its probably just a phase, but at the moment i like the sound from DADGAD tuning.
i have played guitar a bit in standard tuning, and have tried to play along to tunes in this accompniment, playing the chords. Em, D etc. and i allways marvelled at how some guitarists could get these amazing chords and sounds whilst playing the same chord name?!?!
ive checked out all the links you provided, cheers, and ive printed them out for a serious read.
i still need to get my head around the words Dorian and Mixydorian and how that affects playing??!! when a tune starts playing, do you guitarists think, "arr, this is Adorian, right the chords i will use are...... the capo goes.... etc?"
so you generally know the tune first? before providing backing to it? how did you first decide which chords fit where? did you figure it out, or did you watch other people play them?
more questions to follow no doubt
all the best
andy
You have to work out a suitable accompaniament for each and every tune that you want to play along with on the guitar.
Some tunes will want more chords, some want less, some will (secretly, only you can hear it) want that one 'spooky' chord that will earn you a hairy eyeball from the fiddlers
And the stress, accent, lilt, rhythm provided by the right hand is, I think, even more important.
All that and the fact that a from zero to one guitar maximum is typically welcome at a session - who'd go out of their way to learn, unless you already had some skill on the guitar, left over, say, from your Kingston Trio wannabe days ?
It seems to me that thinking about all of the modes and how they affect playing, where to stick chords etc. is a bit complicated especially for a "beginner".
Here's the problem. When you start dealing with harmony, it's a whole different realm of music. It's kind of like a beginning fiddle player trying to figure out spontaneous ornamentation. It is very difficult to explain and, to be honest, he/she probably wouldn't understand anyway. A good teacher would probably say, "Listen a lot, learn a few tunes and begin to add bits and pieces while you go."
My suggestion is for the first few (many?) tunes, use an arrangement that someone has already written. Maybe out of beginner books or as a last recourse, from ABC software like ABCWin.
The good news is that all of your questions are actually relatively "easy" to answer when you get into a few tunes. The answer, of course is: it depends. On style, personal preference, how the tune shapes up, where you want the emphasis etc. etc. etc. (This is, by the way, the same answer that beginning fiddle players get about the "ornamentation" question.)
Three guidelines for ITM players of any instrument.
1. Know the tunes.
2. Know how your instrument fits in the tradition.
3. Know your instrument
Most of the problems arise when a guitarist doesn’t know the tune. This usually happens when a guitarist, used to improvisation (say jazz, bluegrass, or rock) sees people playing in session. They want to join in . . . voila . . . dirty looks, sighs of exasperation and people packing up to head home. This happens to EVERY guitarist that doesn’t know the tunes, even if he/she doesn’t notice.
Knowing how your instrument fits into the tradition. Like Laughtonb said . . . one guitar (and bodran) per session. FULL STOP! Me, personally, I’ve set down the guitar and picked up a fiddle with an eye to playing in sessions. But don’t let this discourage you. ITM isn’t just about session. A guitar and a fiddle (or flute or whistle) is a great sounding combination.
Know your instrument. The reason we see so many multi-instrumentalists in ITM is that THIS criterion is probably less important than the others. The tune is king, if you understand the music, the instrument is simply a tool.
BABY STEPS . . . Start out with simple chords, simple arrangements, simple rythms, once you get to know your guitar. then worry about all the other bits.
Okay, Okay, okay. I was never satisfied with the "ornamentation" answers, so here is my interpretation of some of the issue.
DADGAD vs Standard vs Drop D
It is based on sound, each tune and versatility. You’ll see professional players switch between them. At the beginning, it doesn't matter. Just pick one. Go for it. The caveat: DADGAD doesn't translate out of ITM very easily. If you have a mind to play outside the tradition, you need Standard.
Capos: They change the "key" of the guitar. For example, if you are playing a DADGAD tune in the Key of D major, when you when you put a capo on the 7th fret, you can use the exact same cord shapes to play in A. You actually change the tuning to AEA(D#)EA with the capo. Basically, it makes it so that you don't need to learn a different set of chord shapes for each key.
Which chords to learn?
The disadvantage of DADGAD is that some of the common chords end up having really complicated names. Most people will just cut off the last bits of the name (example Dm9sus6=Dm). Learn some of the common (usually easier) chords especially D G A C and D7 G7 A7 C7 and the minors like Em Dm Bm etc etc. These will be the most common. Later on you will get into different voicings and inversions where its still a D (or Dm or Dsus9 or…), but its shaped differently. That’s where you hear “amazing and different” chords with the same name.
Where to put each chord?
A D chord WILL sound good being played all the way through a tune in D. The down side...BORING. Try and alternate D and G, and right before the end of a bar throw in an A, then make sure you end the tune on a D. That's basic. A good beginning rule of thumb is "build tension with non-root chords (example: chords built on the second, forth, sixth and seventh note of the scale). Use root notes (and fifths) release tension".
Modes: Dorian, Mixolydian. Locrian etc.
In ITM you usually get Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian and Aeolian.
Think of it this way. You are reading sheet music. There are 2 sharps saying it's in the key of D. Right?
Actually no. The tune could be in lots of different modes, BUT you are only going to play the notes in (what we think of as) the key of D. What we think of as the key of D is actually the Ionian mode of the Key of D.
Now, any other "mode" is going to be labeled on a standard sheet of music exactly like the Key of D (Ionian). Two Sharps F and C. The difference is that they are based on another note in the same scale.
Morrison's jig, for example is considered Edor, but when you see it on sheet music it looks like it's in D. Now connect these two ideas: Dorian is the mode based on the second note in a scale. The second note in the D scale is E. Edor, then is based on the 2nd note (E) of the D scale (IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "NORMAL" E SCALE except they start on the same note). Same applies to Mix (4th note) and Aeolian (5th) (Note: Aeolian is actually what everyone calls the relative minor. Example: Bmin (the relative minor in the key of D) is actually the B-Aeolian mode built on the 5th note of the scale).
If the sheet music has two sharps, the music could be in D maj (ion), Edor, Amix and Bm (Aeolian). Same principle applies to the Key of G. One sharp and it could be G major (Ionian), Ador, Dmix, or Em (Aeolian).
Does it make a difference which mode? For harmony: Yes, they sound different.
Morrison’s Jig again. Look at all the E’s in the tune. Tons of them. You are more likely to fool around with E, A and B chords. In an Amix tune you are looking at A D and E.
NOW THE TRICKY BIT! Traditional musicians never sit down with their theory books and create tunes. As a matter of fact, a lot of musicians don’t even know this stuff. They play what SOUNDS good. The consequence here is that a lot of traditional music drifts in and out of modes (and even keys). Some GOOD guitar players think in term of the key that each phrase is in, not the whole tune. It doesn’t matter how great of a guitar player you are, YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE TUNES!
ITM guitar is probably more percussive than harmonic. The muting, muffling, and dampening along with varied rhythmic and accentuation patterns are probably more important for the overall feel than the harmonic variations.
This is just my opinion and the way I understand it. I’ve had crap opinions before, and I will again. Feel free to add, amend, and discount as you see fit.
2nd to last paragraph:
Having gone down this road, I would suggest conventional tuning just because there is so much more available documentation of guitar technique using the old standard EADGBE tuning.
Wow, many great replies posted here. I want to second and amplify the brief mention of what the hand that holds the pick can do. A ridiculously shortened version might be "Think like a piano, play like a drum."
Don't get stuck playing the same thing over and over. The really good guitarists play MUSIC, not just guitar. They experiment with chords, but they back up the melody players, and they try to fly in formation. It's a conversation, and the best conversations are spirited and intimate and funny.
I can play both in DADGAD and standard, but I mostly play standard, simply because it doesn't tie me down quite so much. Your experience may vary...
D Major (aka ionion) : D E F# G A B C# D
Chords often used to harmonise this key are D A G, and their relative minor’s Bm, F#m, Em
(These chords are chosen on the basis that all notes of the chord are in the key,
ie pick a note from the scale eg G, and then pick 2 away from it, and two away from that you
have G, B, D = G Major chord)
Dorian is based on 2nd note od major scale
Mixoldian off 5th
Minor (aka Aeolion) off 6th
So E Dorian (based on 2nd note) has the same notes as D Major, only the tonic is now E : E F# G A B C# D E
Therefore the Chords used to harmonise E Dorian are the same as D,
However you would seldom use them all.
Same with A Mixoldian or B minor, only the tonic now changes to A or B.
Similarly for the G Major scale, A Dorian is the Dorian relative of G Major
Chords for G Major might be G C D Em Am Bm
So the chords to Harmonise A Dorian would be the same
I’m not saying that these are the chords to use all the time, above is just to try and explain the modes,
Probably the most important thing is to know the tune, and try to get one to one lessons.
I'm a pretty average player of melody, but I have a few guitarist friends who somehow play so sympathetically that I seem to be playing better. When I play with these guitarists, everything seems to come out right and people are often (mistakenly) complimentary about my playing, when it's the guitarist who has made all the difference. Other times, I seem to be battling against the guitar, even when it's a technically very good player.
Two ordinary players in sympathy can equal great music, and the converse is true too - two gifted players can clash horribly.
I know you are looking for technical advice, and there's plenty above. I wouldn't have known that Morrisons Jig was Edor - I thought it was Em but I think I'm beginning to understand the difference. It's possible to for a beginner play an effective accompaniment to Morrisons with just Em, D and G in standard tuning, I think, if used sparingly and in the right place. Just make sure you can hear the tune while you're playing.
Scott lays down excellent info here, all good stuff, all appropriate and correct (IMHO). A bit much for an extreme beginner? Maybe. But, it depends on the assumptions one makes about the basic musical background of the player. When I started, I kind of took it for granted that Major tunes would basically center around I, IV, and V (and I still do). Learning tunes in the three other basic ITM modes—minor (aeolian), Mixolydian, and Dorian—was a bit more of a challenge, but with a whole bunch of listening and a whole bunch of glares and admonishments from my good buddy and guitar wiz John Brennan, I was able to establish a basic harmonic pattern for all four modes, adding substitutions as I got more comfortable.
BUT, I came to ITM through a good bit of experience in other musics, including a good bit of stuffy, Euro-centric, university harmony and analysis classes. Indespensible stuff, IMO, but certainly not mandatory in order to learn to be a good backer. I still get caught off guard by a new tune with an unusual harmonic pattern, and just like a melody player, I have to learn the tune and adapt the accompaniment to fit it.
I think it might be unfair to assume (as I have, admittedly) that all ITM players, melody or backer, have an understanding of a basic, 8-bar, I-IV-V structure (or I-VII-vi or what have you). I have never had a guitar student, nor do I intend to, but if I did, I would certainly start with the info Scott presented—albeit perhaps in the slightly simplified form at which BegF hinted—concurrent with learning chord shapes and voicings in standard tuning. When the player was familiar with the basic three-chord structures of each of the four primary modes in each of the primary keys used in ITM (whew!), he/she would be better equipped to be able to predict appropriate harmonies, thereby tastefully supporting the melody rather than occluding it.
I think you’re being a bit hard on Scott there Bribanjo. I wouldn’t say it’s bull at all.
A bit confusing, but it’s as well to know this stuff or at the very least be aware of it.
I don’t think people are trying to show off, but trying to be helpful.
“If anyone asked me the key of Morrissons jig I would say E minor”
and you would be wrong.
Because it’s not E minor, and your guitarist might decide to throw in
a typical E minor progression, throwing in a big fat C, and someone listening would
post in this sites about guitarists bashing out all the wrong chords and being of no use
to ITM.
cheers all for taking so much time to post replies.
there is plenty of information to sink my teeth into. perhaps standard tuning might be a good place to start, then change once i am profficient.
i played my fiddle in a session yesterday and tried to think like a guitarist about keys etc.
i like the contempory guitar style played in irish tunes. perhaps thats due to my age (16) but at a session at Warwick folk festival last weekend i was sat next to a guitarist playing backing and melody to the tunes. i found the chords and rythems he played really cool, and they made the tunes sound exciting.
Skott, cheers for the detailed response. it is technical, but it is good stuff to understand, so i will re-read it afew more times to try and totally understand it and then try and apply it.
Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Learning Guitar.......where to start??
hello!
just found the message board again, last time i posted was when i was just about to start my GCSE composition of an irish reel. it is now complete
right, ive just got back from warwick folk festival. i went to a few sessions playing my fiddle but ended up listening to the guitarists and bouzouki players. i love the accomniments they provide to tunes.
to me the guitar seems so more complicated than the fiddle, different tunings, capo's, being able to play the same note on different strings at different frets,finger picking etc etc.
i have now tuned my dads guitar down to DADGAD, and have found afew chords on the internet.
what chords do most people use whilst playing tunes? there are thousands on this site. some weird ones. i have tried accompnying afew tunes, using the chord D maj/min which is 050200. this chord seems to fit every bar of the tune. what do you do then folks?
when people put capo's on. how do they know where to put the capo on, is there any way of working it out?do you have to learn a totally new set of chords for every capo position or do the chords move too?
thats all i can think of for now.........
all the best
andy
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by briggfoot
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
I was just listening to my friend play guitar at a session last night. What I like about his playing is that he learns the tune and tailors his accompaniment to each tune. He is an accomplished guitarist and does all this in standard tuning. Lucky I was sitting next to him cos if you were at a distance the other guitar players (yes I'm afraid so, and four bodhrans) blurred him into one messy noise.
You have discovered something about DADGAD that sums up why I don't like it in 99% of players that use it. Yes you can theoretically accompany every tune with much the same chord - with the result that the individuality in each tune, a fragile thing at the best of times, gets drowned out.
The guitar's about the easiest instrument to get started on, but the hardest to play with individuality and restraint. Good luck.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Bren
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Andy, did you post your tune in the archives?
Best place to start -- find yourself an experienced guitar player to learn from. Try to find one who is enthusiastic about all tunings, not just one, because you don't want to be limited to knowledge and learning about only one kind of tuning.
My two cents!
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Lots of tune books don't have chords, but this fairly standard one (see below) kick-started my interest in this music some years ago (I was playing guitar to my son's fiddle)- it's still in stock in the local music shop and you can get it on Amazon:
"Jigs, Reels and Hornpipes: Traditional Fiddle Tunes from England, Ireland and Scotland". Although I'm now mostly playing mandolin, I always browse the fiddle section in music shops (am I allowed to do that? - sometimes I have a go at scraping away at a fiddle but it's torture for anyone within earshot) - I bought the Fiddlers Fakebook recently - that's got very useful chords for guitar accompaniment and lots of Irish tunes. Maybe someone else can recommend books or websites specifically for guitar.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by RichardB
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Until you know what you're doing, keep it simple. There's also lots of interesting chord positions in standard tuning which you could investigate before attempting open tunings. Also, using the correct rhythms and working on damping techniques is as important as learning the chords. If you wish to learn "tune accompaniment", try to find a teacher or player of this style who can show you. The biggest menaces in sessions are not usually the beginners but those who have learned some other style of guitar playing and assume(often arrogantly) that they can transfer their "skills" directly to traditional music.
I'd recommend you buy Chris Smith's book "Celtic Back-up for all instrumentalists" at a later date. It's excellent but probably not for beginners.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by John J.
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
I'm glad to here that people on this board aren't all aggog about alternative tuneings.
"If you want to play chords, use standard tuning. It is better." Martin Carthy
http://folkguitar.us/
http://www.torvund.net/guitar/progressions/04-Threechord.asp
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by baglady
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Hiya Briggfoot,
It’s always a sensitive issue.
One thing though, I don’t think guitar is easier than fiddle or vice versa.
It’s like saying 100meters is easier than 1000m.
Well it is easier to finish it, but to be “good” at it you have to do it within a certain time
I agree with Bren’s comments on DADGAD to an extent but I wouldn’t write DADGAD off either.
More importantly you should learn how to be a sensitive guitarist, best place to start there is with
Lessons from a trad guitarist, if not have a look at some instruction videos/books.
I’d recommend John Doyles video for rhythm, and Frank Kilkelly’s book for different approaches.
Also Chris Smith’s book on Accompaniment which goes into detail about different modes in Trad.
Be familiar with the structure of ITM, rhythms, modes etc
One thing that melody players often give out about guitarists is “chord bashing” which I don’t think neccessairly means
playing loudly, rather bashing out the wrong chords at the wrong time, playing your favourite D-Major three chord trick
when the tune is in D mixolydian - or continuing on with those chords even though the tune has changed.
To back a tune, you should really know it - unless you very accomplished with loads of backing experience, and
know fully the pitfalls of backing a tune you don’t know.
Listen to as many guitarists as possible – Paul Brady/Ian Carr/John Doyle/Denis Cahill/Steve Cooney/Donagh Hennessey
Art Mcglynn/Michael O Domhnaill.
Listen to as much trad as possible.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by BegF
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
And for everything you need to know about playing lovely session guitar:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=20979&highlight=
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by baglady
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
blimy, cheers for the rapid responses!!!
its probably just a phase, but at the moment i like the sound from DADGAD tuning.
i have played guitar a bit in standard tuning, and have tried to play along to tunes in this accompniment, playing the chords. Em, D etc. and i allways marvelled at how some guitarists could get these amazing chords and sounds whilst playing the same chord name?!?!
ive checked out all the links you provided, cheers, and ive printed them out for a serious read.
i still need to get my head around the words Dorian and Mixydorian and how that affects playing??!! when a tune starts playing, do you guitarists think, "arr, this is Adorian, right the chords i will use are...... the capo goes.... etc?"
so you generally know the tune first? before providing backing to it? how did you first decide which chords fit where? did you figure it out, or did you watch other people play them?
more questions to follow no doubt
all the best
andy
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by briggfoot
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Chords, Schmords!
You have to work out a suitable accompaniament for each and every tune that you want to play along with on the guitar.
Some tunes will want more chords, some want less, some will (secretly, only you can hear it) want that one 'spooky' chord that will earn you a hairy eyeball from the fiddlers
And the stress, accent, lilt, rhythm provided by the right hand is, I think, even more important.
All that and the fact that a from zero to one guitar maximum is typically welcome at a session - who'd go out of their way to learn, unless you already had some skill on the guitar, left over, say, from your Kingston Trio wannabe days ?
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Laughtonb
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
It seems to me that thinking about all of the modes and how they affect playing, where to stick chords etc. is a bit complicated especially for a "beginner".
Here's the problem. When you start dealing with harmony, it's a whole different realm of music. It's kind of like a beginning fiddle player trying to figure out spontaneous ornamentation. It is very difficult to explain and, to be honest, he/she probably wouldn't understand anyway. A good teacher would probably say, "Listen a lot, learn a few tunes and begin to add bits and pieces while you go."
My suggestion is for the first few (many?) tunes, use an arrangement that someone has already written. Maybe out of beginner books or as a last recourse, from ABC software like ABCWin.
The good news is that all of your questions are actually relatively "easy" to answer when you get into a few tunes. The answer, of course is: it depends. On style, personal preference, how the tune shapes up, where you want the emphasis etc. etc. etc. (This is, by the way, the same answer that beginning fiddle players get about the "ornamentation" question.)
Three guidelines for ITM players of any instrument.
1. Know the tunes.
2. Know how your instrument fits in the tradition.
3. Know your instrument
Most of the problems arise when a guitarist doesn’t know the tune. This usually happens when a guitarist, used to improvisation (say jazz, bluegrass, or rock) sees people playing in session. They want to join in . . . voila . . . dirty looks, sighs of exasperation and people packing up to head home. This happens to EVERY guitarist that doesn’t know the tunes, even if he/she doesn’t notice.
Knowing how your instrument fits into the tradition. Like Laughtonb said . . . one guitar (and bodran) per session. FULL STOP! Me, personally, I’ve set down the guitar and picked up a fiddle with an eye to playing in sessions. But don’t let this discourage you. ITM isn’t just about session. A guitar and a fiddle (or flute or whistle) is a great sounding combination.
Know your instrument. The reason we see so many multi-instrumentalists in ITM is that THIS criterion is probably less important than the others. The tune is king, if you understand the music, the instrument is simply a tool.
BABY STEPS . . . Start out with simple chords, simple arrangements, simple rythms, once you get to know your guitar. then worry about all the other bits.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by scottcantrell
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Okay, Okay, okay. I was never satisfied with the "ornamentation" answers, so here is my interpretation of some of the issue.
DADGAD vs Standard vs Drop D
It is based on sound, each tune and versatility. You’ll see professional players switch between them. At the beginning, it doesn't matter. Just pick one. Go for it. The caveat: DADGAD doesn't translate out of ITM very easily. If you have a mind to play outside the tradition, you need Standard.
Capos: They change the "key" of the guitar. For example, if you are playing a DADGAD tune in the Key of D major, when you when you put a capo on the 7th fret, you can use the exact same cord shapes to play in A. You actually change the tuning to AEA(D#)EA with the capo. Basically, it makes it so that you don't need to learn a different set of chord shapes for each key.
Which chords to learn?
The disadvantage of DADGAD is that some of the common chords end up having really complicated names. Most people will just cut off the last bits of the name (example Dm9sus6=Dm). Learn some of the common (usually easier) chords especially D G A C and D7 G7 A7 C7 and the minors like Em Dm Bm etc etc. These will be the most common. Later on you will get into different voicings and inversions where its still a D (or Dm or Dsus9 or…), but its shaped differently. That’s where you hear “amazing and different” chords with the same name.
Where to put each chord?
A D chord WILL sound good being played all the way through a tune in D. The down side...BORING. Try and alternate D and G, and right before the end of a bar throw in an A, then make sure you end the tune on a D. That's basic. A good beginning rule of thumb is "build tension with non-root chords (example: chords built on the second, forth, sixth and seventh note of the scale). Use root notes (and fifths) release tension".
Modes: Dorian, Mixolydian. Locrian etc.
In ITM you usually get Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian and Aeolian.
Think of it this way. You are reading sheet music. There are 2 sharps saying it's in the key of D. Right?
Actually no. The tune could be in lots of different modes, BUT you are only going to play the notes in (what we think of as) the key of D. What we think of as the key of D is actually the Ionian mode of the Key of D.
Now, any other "mode" is going to be labeled on a standard sheet of music exactly like the Key of D (Ionian). Two Sharps F and C. The difference is that they are based on another note in the same scale.
Morrison's jig, for example is considered Edor, but when you see it on sheet music it looks like it's in D. Now connect these two ideas: Dorian is the mode based on the second note in a scale. The second note in the D scale is E. Edor, then is based on the 2nd note (E) of the D scale (IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "NORMAL" E SCALE except they start on the same note). Same applies to Mix (4th note) and Aeolian (5th) (Note: Aeolian is actually what everyone calls the relative minor. Example: Bmin (the relative minor in the key of D) is actually the B-Aeolian mode built on the 5th note of the scale).
If the sheet music has two sharps, the music could be in D maj (ion), Edor, Amix and Bm (Aeolian). Same principle applies to the Key of G. One sharp and it could be G major (Ionian), Ador, Dmix, or Em (Aeolian).
Does it make a difference which mode? For harmony: Yes, they sound different.
Morrison’s Jig again. Look at all the E’s in the tune. Tons of them. You are more likely to fool around with E, A and B chords. In an Amix tune you are looking at A D and E.
NOW THE TRICKY BIT! Traditional musicians never sit down with their theory books and create tunes. As a matter of fact, a lot of musicians don’t even know this stuff. They play what SOUNDS good. The consequence here is that a lot of traditional music drifts in and out of modes (and even keys). Some GOOD guitar players think in term of the key that each phrase is in, not the whole tune. It doesn’t matter how great of a guitar player you are, YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE TUNES!
ITM guitar is probably more percussive than harmonic. The muting, muffling, and dampening along with varied rhythmic and accentuation patterns are probably more important for the overall feel than the harmonic variations.
This is just my opinion and the way I understand it. I’ve had crap opinions before, and I will again. Feel free to add, amend, and discount as you see fit.
OKAY, I’ll shut up now.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by scottcantrell
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Whoa! Well done, Scott, and welcome stuff it all is. You're going to give Will a run for his money.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
If I hadn't learned conventional music theory while learning guitar, on-the-fly accompanyment would have eaten my lunch.
Start out with knowing the tunes.
Try Edly's "Music Theory for Practical People" for the basic theory.
Know your triads - a lot of times, three strings are better than six.
When you know your diatonic harmony theory fairly well, take on the Chris Smith book.
Having gone down this road, I would suggest conventional tuning just because there is so much more available documentation on guitar techniq
And as the cat from Nickle Creek said (approx.) "It's amazing how exciting chords can be if you change the position of just one finger."
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by KC Gross
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Oops - fat finger.
2nd to last paragraph:
Having gone down this road, I would suggest conventional tuning just because there is so much more available documentation of guitar technique using the old standard EADGBE tuning.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by KC Gross
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Wow, many great replies posted here. I want to second and amplify the brief mention of what the hand that holds the pick can do. A ridiculously shortened version might be "Think like a piano, play like a drum."
Don't get stuck playing the same thing over and over. The really good guitarists play MUSIC, not just guitar. They experiment with chords, but they back up the melody players, and they try to fly in formation. It's a conversation, and the best conversations are spirited and intimate and funny.
I can play both in DADGAD and standard, but I mostly play standard, simply because it doesn't tie me down quite so much. Your experience may vary...
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
To try and explain the modes in another way:
Take D Major:
D Major (aka ionion) : D E F# G A B C# D
Chords often used to harmonise this key are D A G, and their relative minor’s Bm, F#m, Em
(These chords are chosen on the basis that all notes of the chord are in the key,
ie pick a note from the scale eg G, and then pick 2 away from it, and two away from that you
have G, B, D = G Major chord)
Dorian is based on 2nd note od major scale
Mixoldian off 5th
Minor (aka Aeolion) off 6th
So E Dorian (based on 2nd note) has the same notes as D Major, only the tonic is now E : E F# G A B C# D E
Therefore the Chords used to harmonise E Dorian are the same as D,
However you would seldom use them all.
Same with A Mixoldian or B minor, only the tonic now changes to A or B.
Similarly for the G Major scale, A Dorian is the Dorian relative of G Major
Chords for G Major might be G C D Em Am Bm
So the chords to Harmonise A Dorian would be the same
I’m not saying that these are the chords to use all the time, above is just to try and explain the modes,
Probably the most important thing is to know the tune, and try to get one to one lessons.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by BegF
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
I'm a pretty average player of melody, but I have a few guitarist friends who somehow play so sympathetically that I seem to be playing better. When I play with these guitarists, everything seems to come out right and people are often (mistakenly) complimentary about my playing, when it's the guitarist who has made all the difference. Other times, I seem to be battling against the guitar, even when it's a technically very good player.
Two ordinary players in sympathy can equal great music, and the converse is true too - two gifted players can clash horribly.
I know you are looking for technical advice, and there's plenty above. I wouldn't have known that Morrisons Jig was Edor - I thought it was Em but I think I'm beginning to understand the difference. It's possible to for a beginner play an effective accompaniment to Morrisons with just Em, D and G in standard tuning, I think, if used sparingly and in the right place. Just make sure you can hear the tune while you're playing.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Bren
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Wow, THAT'S REALLY BAD!
This is the reason I hate Theory. Tipsy 2am finger math without a guitar in sight can result in very poor examples and misinformation.
As begf so delicately and gently corrected. Mixolydian is based on the 5th note and Aeolian (minor) is based on the sixth.
Glaring mistake. Take the other info with a grain of salt as well.
Theory and finger math. See I told you that some musicians don't know this stuff. (At the time I really wasn't thinking about myself.)
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by scottcantrell
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
OK, time for me own tuppence...
Scott lays down excellent info here, all good stuff, all appropriate and correct (IMHO). A bit much for an extreme beginner? Maybe. But, it depends on the assumptions one makes about the basic musical background of the player. When I started, I kind of took it for granted that Major tunes would basically center around I, IV, and V (and I still do). Learning tunes in the three other basic ITM modes—minor (aeolian), Mixolydian, and Dorian—was a bit more of a challenge, but with a whole bunch of listening and a whole bunch of glares and admonishments from my good buddy and guitar wiz John Brennan, I was able to establish a basic harmonic pattern for all four modes, adding substitutions as I got more comfortable.
BUT, I came to ITM through a good bit of experience in other musics, including a good bit of stuffy, Euro-centric, university harmony and analysis classes. Indespensible stuff, IMO, but certainly not mandatory in order to learn to be a good backer. I still get caught off guard by a new tune with an unusual harmonic pattern, and just like a melody player, I have to learn the tune and adapt the accompaniment to fit it.
I think it might be unfair to assume (as I have, admittedly) that all ITM players, melody or backer, have an understanding of a basic, 8-bar, I-IV-V structure (or I-VII-vi or what have you). I have never had a guitar student, nor do I intend to, but if I did, I would certainly start with the info Scott presented—albeit perhaps in the slightly simplified form at which BegF hinted—concurrent with learning chord shapes and voicings in standard tuning. When the player was familiar with the basic three-chord structures of each of the four primary modes in each of the primary keys used in ITM (whew!), he/she would be better equipped to be able to predict appropriate harmonies, thereby tastefully supporting the melody rather than occluding it.
OK, release the hounds....
DK
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by darinkelly
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
I think you’re being a bit hard on Scott there Bribanjo. I wouldn’t say it’s bull at all.
A bit confusing, but it’s as well to know this stuff or at the very least be aware of it.
I don’t think people are trying to show off, but trying to be helpful.
“If anyone asked me the key of Morrissons jig I would say E minor”
and you would be wrong.
Because it’s not E minor, and your guitarist might decide to throw in
a typical E minor progression, throwing in a big fat C, and someone listening would
post in this sites about guitarists bashing out all the wrong chords and being of no use
to ITM.
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by BegF
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
True.
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by BegF
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
Although Maid Behind the Bar is in D major, so the F#m would be right
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by BegF
Re: Learning Guitar.......where to start??
cheers all for taking so much time to post replies.
there is plenty of information to sink my teeth into. perhaps standard tuning might be a good place to start, then change once i am profficient.
i played my fiddle in a session yesterday and tried to think like a guitarist about keys etc.
i like the contempory guitar style played in irish tunes. perhaps thats due to my age (16) but at a session at Warwick folk festival last weekend i was sat next to a guitarist playing backing and melody to the tunes. i found the chords and rythems he played really cool, and they made the tunes sound exciting.
Skott, cheers for the detailed response. it is technical, but it is good stuff to understand, so i will re-read it afew more times to try and totally understand it and then try and apply it.
printing this thread now.
thanks alot
andy
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by briggfoot