So is it just me, or do piano accordians and uilleann pipes just not mix? I often play for dancers with a piano accordian player, and as far as I can tell, his reeds are setup with the primary stop at equal temperment, and the second stop just a tad higher. For volume, he'll use both.
When I play my spot-on just intonation F# against this high and higher F# it just sounds awful, and one can extrapolate for the rest of the scale.
What I'm curious about, not being familiar with button accordian or concertina tuning, is this a characteristic just of piano accordians, i.e. are button accordians and/or concertinas tuned using just intonation in a particular key? It seems like when I've played with button accordian or concertina players, the unison intonation is much better.
I've heard this particular problem many times. Sometimes Pete the P/A player takes the whole keyboard down a little bit by internal adustment, making the A slightly below 440Hz. That helps a bit...I think you're always going to have tuning problems with 2 (near)-fixed pitch instruments playing together.
Funny you should mention this, but I've noticed that I don't think they they do mix.
I play piano accordion, (as much like a button one as I can make it sound hopefully, although why should I apologise?), and we have a guy who plays pipes in our session every week. Lovely bloke, full of stories, and he just loves the music. His piping is slightly erratic for timing, and his tune versions are a little idiosyncratic, which is perhaps not a good start. When we play simultaneously, which is most of the evening, I'm conscious that the sound of his pipes is in some sort of conflict with the sound of my accordion. They're both reed instruments of course, so must produce a similar sound signature (if you were to capture it on a screen I'm guessing).
My accordion with it's steel reels is pretty much in decent reliable pitch all the time, but the other guy's pipes are notorious for varying their pitch with humidity and temerature, and he even swaps chanters mid-set sometimes. So if we've got two (relatively) similar reeds sounding, one of which is variable, and mine is a 2-voice accordion, so I've already got two reeds tuned slightly apart; that makes three reeds maybe all slightly off each other. That's the end of the technical bit.
The effect for me is that while we're playing simultaneously, I have a real problem hearing my instrument properly, and very often I think I'm playing bum notes becuse the pipes fool me into thinking that their sound has originated from me. All I know is that the sound instantly 'cleans up' when one or the other of us tales a pee or goes to the bar!
hehe pobe you've got a point. My p/a is "swing-tuned" which is very close to the sound of a button-accordion. It's a much warmer sound than dry tuning, where the two sets of reeds are identical in pitch. Provided you're playing with an even-tempered set of pipes, it sounds OK. Obviously the pipes may change in pitch as they warm up so the piper needs to have a good idea of how to tune their pipes properly and needs a decent reed that won't sharpen too much in the second octave, and where the bottom D isn't flat and doesn't gurgle. I know some pipers (e.g. Paddy Keenan used to as far as I know) put a few grasses inside the chanter, which makes it more difficult to play but corrects the tuning.
If you're a box player and you're playing with an instrument which plainly can't be tuned due to dodgy workmanship, or you're a late arrival and the rest of the musicians can't be bothered tuning to you, I would think twice about joining in at all.
My wife plays piano accordion and I play pipes and we get along just fine together. I tune my first octave A to her accordion which is set on one voice and we're good to go. Differences in tuning begin to show up when she uses different voices. Left hand chords really underscore the differences in temperment between the two instruments and we simply dispense with them.
The original question was related to the compatibility of Uilleann pipes and Piano accordion. Assuming that the respective instruments are in good playing order, I believe that they are compatible. When you begin to discuss different settings, styles and dodgy playing, the question then becomes "Should pipers and piano accordion players mix"? Indeed, if settings and style become issues, then one wonders whether anyone should play together.
I think Paddy Keenan now uses old strings, Conan. Tim O'Brien and Dirk have both said something about it to me, and Dirk now uses an old bouzouki string in his when needed.
He does Zina, that's why I said "used to" but I wasn't sure whether or not it was strings he now used. Cheers! Apparently it's a Leo Rowsome technique as he used to play a Rowsome chanter, although I believe it's a copy now.
Reminds me of the time 10 of us went to Clare in a VW van which broke down near Athlone. It was fixed using - you guessed it - a bouzouki string!
Mind you that was no surprise; about a mile outside Belfast we ran out of petrol. The driver, a certain George McErlean, was heard to remark "Isn't this exciting?"
*smirk* The funny thing, Conan, is that I *used* one of those pictures (with permission) for the interview I did of Sir -- so I've little to no excuse for not remembering it was Dave Williams.
Yeah but concertina's sound great with anything, in my opinion, especially Niall Vallely's.
No, we're talking JCBs here. I've got vague memories of someone mentioning a gig with one of the Begleys. Any confirmations?
I'm pretty sure I saw Paddy Keenan and Tony MacMahon play a set at one of the Willie Week concerts in '89. Brain cells being what they are, the piper might not have been PK. The sound was mighty though: loud and very together.
In my experience, pipes and pipers can have some weird intonations, and not all are committed to the idea of playing in tune as a basic part of group playing.
On the box side, being sat next to someone who is playing out of tune is a problem and throws me right off. This isn't just an intonation thing - the out-of-tuneness makes the accordion sound strange and unpleasant and my fingers have a hard time staying on the right buttons. I should drink more, I suppose.
I wonder how often one finds piano & or button accordions do not play well together ( providing all the button ones are B/c tuned.
I would have thought very rarely.
If this is so, then does the comments sound a little the quote. " the whole army is out of step with our john ".
You will probably find that the accordions will not find conflict with pianos & organs
J. B.
I play pa with two uillean pipers and it blends very well. Single reed voice, no basses - sounds decently like a concertina.
I think a lot of it is imitation - by using certain ornaments and styles, you can make your accordion sound like (or sympathetic to) another instrument (no bodhrans, please).
Needless to say, both pipers play totally differently and I have to match the style to the pipers.
I can accompany either piper one at a time, but they don't play well together as their styles are totally different.
Thats scope for another thread - does more than one uillean piper sound ok?
Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
So is it just me, or do piano accordians and uilleann pipes just not mix? I often play for dancers with a piano accordian player, and as far as I can tell, his reeds are setup with the primary stop at equal temperment, and the second stop just a tad higher. For volume, he'll use both.
When I play my spot-on just intonation F# against this high and higher F# it just sounds awful, and one can extrapolate for the rest of the scale.
What I'm curious about, not being familiar with button accordian or concertina tuning, is this a characteristic just of piano accordians, i.e. are button accordians and/or concertinas tuned using just intonation in a particular key? It seems like when I've played with button accordian or concertina players, the unison intonation is much better.
Thanks for any info,
Michael
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by Michael Eskin
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Seamus Meehan would be the man to ask - the only musician I know of who plays both.
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by Kenny
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
But can he play both at the same time, Kenny?!
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
I've heard this particular problem many times. Sometimes Pete the P/A player takes the whole keyboard down a little bit by internal adustment, making the A slightly below 440Hz. That helps a bit...I think you're always going to have tuning problems with 2 (near)-fixed pitch instruments playing together.
Jim
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by Worldfiddler
They do NOT mix!
Funny you should mention this, but I've noticed that I don't think they they do mix.
I play piano accordion, (as much like a button one as I can make it sound hopefully, although why should I apologise?), and we have a guy who plays pipes in our session every week. Lovely bloke, full of stories, and he just loves the music. His piping is slightly erratic for timing, and his tune versions are a little idiosyncratic, which is perhaps not a good start. When we play simultaneously, which is most of the evening, I'm conscious that the sound of his pipes is in some sort of conflict with the sound of my accordion. They're both reed instruments of course, so must produce a similar sound signature (if you were to capture it on a screen I'm guessing).
My accordion with it's steel reels is pretty much in decent reliable pitch all the time, but the other guy's pipes are notorious for varying their pitch with humidity and temerature, and he even swaps chanters mid-set sometimes. So if we've got two (relatively) similar reeds sounding, one of which is variable, and mine is a 2-voice accordion, so I've already got two reeds tuned slightly apart; that makes three reeds maybe all slightly off each other. That's the end of the technical bit.
The effect for me is that while we're playing simultaneously, I have a real problem hearing my instrument properly, and very often I think I'm playing bum notes becuse the pipes fool me into thinking that their sound has originated from me. All I know is that the sound instantly 'cleans up' when one or the other of us tales a pee or goes to the bar!
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by petemay
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Piano accordians... Is it just me, or do they just don't mix? ;)
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
hehe pobe you've got a point. My p/a is "swing-tuned" which is very close to the sound of a button-accordion. It's a much warmer sound than dry tuning, where the two sets of reeds are identical in pitch. Provided you're playing with an even-tempered set of pipes, it sounds OK. Obviously the pipes may change in pitch as they warm up so the piper needs to have a good idea of how to tune their pipes properly and needs a decent reed that won't sharpen too much in the second octave, and where the bottom D isn't flat and doesn't gurgle. I know some pipers (e.g. Paddy Keenan used to as far as I know) put a few grasses inside the chanter, which makes it more difficult to play but corrects the tuning.
If you're a box player and you're playing with an instrument which plainly can't be tuned due to dodgy workmanship, or you're a late arrival and the rest of the musicians can't be bothered tuning to you, I would think twice about joining in at all.
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
My wife plays piano accordion and I play pipes and we get along just fine together. I tune my first octave A to her accordion which is set on one voice and we're good to go. Differences in tuning begin to show up when she uses different voices. Left hand chords really underscore the differences in temperment between the two instruments and we simply dispense with them.
The original question was related to the compatibility of Uilleann pipes and Piano accordion. Assuming that the respective instruments are in good playing order, I believe that they are compatible. When you begin to discuss different settings, styles and dodgy playing, the question then becomes "Should pipers and piano accordion players mix"? Indeed, if settings and style become issues, then one wonders whether anyone should play together.
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by Bill Reeder
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
I think Paddy Keenan now uses old strings, Conan. Tim O'Brien and Dirk have both said something about it to me, and Dirk now uses an old bouzouki string in his when needed.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
He does Zina, that's why I said "used to" but I wasn't sure whether or not it was strings he now used. Cheers! Apparently it's a Leo Rowsome technique as he used to play a Rowsome chanter, although I believe it's a copy now.
Reminds me of the time 10 of us went to Clare in a VW van which broke down near Athlone. It was fixed using - you guessed it - a bouzouki string!
Mind you that was no surprise; about a mile outside Belfast we ran out of petrol. The driver, a certain George McErlean, was heard to remark "Isn't this exciting?"
Sure we got there in the end.
Rambling as usual...
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Ah, bouzouki strings -- the duct tape of the Irish traditional music world...
I should remember who made Paddy's latest set, but I can't. Heh.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
I think the chanter is made by Benedict Koehler. My memory isn't the best though...
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Was it? I thought somebody named Christopher or something made them, but I'm sure that's not it... Obviously my memory isn't any better than yours!
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Aah we're both wrong
http://w1.461.telia.com/~u46103557/pkpipes.html
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
To stay reasonably on topic, out of interest has anyone seen Paddy Keenan do a gig with a box player? Niall Vallely's concertina doesn't count.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Why doesn't it! I love that man's playing...especially love the stuff he's done with Cillian.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
*smirk* The funny thing, Conan, is that I *used* one of those pictures (with permission) for the interview I did of Sir -- so I've little to no excuse for not remembering it was Dave Williams.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Yeah but concertina's sound great with anything, in my opinion, especially Niall Vallely's.
No, we're talking JCBs here. I've got vague memories of someone mentioning a gig with one of the Begleys. Any confirmations?
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Gve me 50, Zina!
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
50 what, Conan? *grin*
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Isn't that what they say over in your neck of the woods? I thought it meant push-ups but maybe I'm missing something here ;¬)
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Oh thank goodness, pushups, I thought you meant dollars.
Heh.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Well if you can spare it...
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
LOL -- nice one...nice one...
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
I'm pretty sure I saw Paddy Keenan and Tony MacMahon play a set at one of the Willie Week concerts in '89. Brain cells being what they are, the piper might not have been PK. The sound was mighty though: loud and very together.
In my experience, pipes and pipers can have some weird intonations, and not all are committed to the idea of playing in tune as a basic part of group playing.
On the box side, being sat next to someone who is playing out of tune is a problem and throws me right off. This isn't just an intonation thing - the out-of-tuneness makes the accordion sound strange and unpleasant and my fingers have a hard time staying on the right buttons. I should drink more, I suppose.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
I wonder how often one finds piano & or button accordions do not play well together ( providing all the button ones are B/c tuned.
I would have thought very rarely.
If this is so, then does the comments sound a little the quote. " the whole army is out of step with our john ".
You will probably find that the accordions will not find conflict with pianos & organs
J. B.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by boorinwood
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
I play pa with two uillean pipers and it blends very well. Single reed voice, no basses - sounds decently like a concertina.
I think a lot of it is imitation - by using certain ornaments and styles, you can make your accordion sound like (or sympathetic to) another instrument (no bodhrans, please).
Needless to say, both pipers play totally differently and I have to match the style to the pipers.
I can accompany either piper one at a time, but they don't play well together as their styles are totally different.
Thats scope for another thread - does more than one uillean piper sound ok?
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...
Look at Flogging Molly they do it.
# Posted on July 30th 2004 by Why Bother?