I have heard the remark made a few time that it is seldom that playeres who did all their learing from music staff can seldom go on to playing many tunes without having their notes to read.
Do many others think this to me true?
J.B.
Depends on how good their memory is. Most 'play by ear' musicians have only their memory to rely on. 'Staff' players use a combination of 'real tunes' and 'printed notes for the tune' for recall.
OK - a bit off-topic but I find if playing "classical" stuff that if I learn the music then play it from memory, it's only then that the "shape" of the piece emerges. I think whether you learn by ear or from music, that's only the start of things.
Can you clarify, please? Are you asking if we believe that music readers are seldom proficient at memorization?
I find that if I learn a tune from a recording, by ear (this is a relatively new skill for me), I have it memorized quickly. This I suppose is a plus. But I find it nearly impossible to deviate from what I've learned. I play that exact version of the tune.
If I learn from written music it is a lot longer before its memorized, but by then I've 'changed' things enough to have a few unwitting variations on passages as I 'misremember' what's on the page or combine versions from various written sources. That, IMHO, is a plus for my learning/memorizing from the page.
The third way is from hearing something at session often enough that some of it sinks in and I can play along. These tunes I could never play solo, never start, and muck up in general because I'm only playing what I think I hear. Five fiddles, three sets of reeds of one ilk or another, and lord knows how many strings being strummed and skins being beaten, this tends to blur a tune. If I find the written music, what I see seldom matches what I thought I heard. Any recall of these tunes is shoddy at best.
«I have heard the remark made a few time that it is seldom that playeres who did all their learing from music staff can seldom go on to playing many tunes without having their notes to read.»
Quite possibly. More importantly though, nobody who continues to rely totally on sheet music and is not prepared to develop their ability to learn by ear can become a decent player of Irish traditional music. Well, it's not that they can't become a decent player, it's just that they never do.
When I read the notes off of the page, usually it is because I've heard the tune before and either don't have access to a recording of it or the person from whom I first heard it. Other times I go to sheet music because I need to learn a certain tune for a specific purpose, and don't have any other resource. I prefer learning by ear, mainly because it is easy for me and it helps me memorize the tune more quickly (as others have mentioned too). However, there is absolutely NO change in how I emphasize, ornament, and put the proper lilt into a tune because of where I learned it (paper or otherwise). The dots are there as a skeleton of the real tune, and it is up to the player to have the knowledge, insight, and feel for the music to breathe life into that skeleton. Classical players can do it, and non-classical players who read music can do it as well. Of course it depends on how perceptive the individual is and how much they are willing to adjust their playing style to use proper ornamentation, phrasing, bowing, breathing, emphasis, and variation. We all know this. But I honestly don't believe that there is something magical about people who only play by ear, and I certainly don't belive that those who read music are at a disadvantage to learning the tradition.
"I have heard the remark made a few time that it is seldom that playeres who did all their learing from music staff can seldom go on to playing many tunes without having their notes to read.
Do many others think this to me true?"
I've learned a fair amount of tunes both from paper and by ear and and I don't find that there is a difference in my ability to recall any of them. How many tunes are we talking about? I never play out with sheet music, and the only problem I have is remembering all the tunes that I know.
Learning the tunes from the dots doesn't teach you emphasis and dynamic. For that one has to listen, listen, and listen some more. When I learn a piece from paper, I usually have heard it somewhere before and have an aural impression of it while I'm learning. The tune may get changed along the way, depending on which instrument I'm playing or which group of folks I'm playing with. But, the bottom line is that how I acquired a tune has little of nothing to do with my memory or ability to learn yet another tune.
It's been said before but I'll repeat it:
playing ITM from sheet music is like reading the manual while driving.
I think we are not talking about players who use sheet music now and then to aid their memory. I know classically trained musicians who never play one single ITM tune without using the dots. And like that you never get anywhere.
I like to get the basics of the tune from dots especially if its complicated but to "play" the tune you have to do it by ear. The dots just slow you down to much. By the time I've worked out which dot I'm supposed to be playing we're on to the third or fourth tune of the set. I think with ITM you get to know by ear a lot of set phrases in the tune and then you kind of string them together - maybe I've got it all wrong!!!!!
Whether you learn a tune by ear or from the dots, to be able to play the tune from memory means you have to get the tune into your head. Both methods work. How well either one works for a player depends on how experienced that player is with the given method.
Having learned tunes by ear and off the dots for over 20 years, either way comes easy to me. And either way, the tune sticks in my memory as well as a tune learned by the other method.
Of course, you need to listen to a lot of music, and learn tunes by ear, to understand how to turn the dots into living tunes.
People who can learn tunes from the dots also develop the ability to play as they sight read, and they may use that ability if needed (such as playing a new tune on short notice at a wedding - you can have the dots available as a memory aid). But that doesn't mean their memory is somehow impaired because they learned the tune off the dots. In fact, they may have learned the tune by ear and are just using the dots for backup.
It's interesting that this myth keeps coming up, about sight readers somehow being 'impaired by their ability.' I think it represents a misunderstanding by people who can't sight read, based in large part on their experience of 'halfing' musicians who's training emphasizes seeing music over hearing music. But there are legions of fully formed musicians who can play both by ear and by the dots--in the world of professional music, in fact, that is the standard.
Er, I meant "halfling musicians,'as in players who haven't developed their ears and aural memories yet. Us trad players have a hard time imagining playing music for years off sheet music and never really memorizing the tunes. But some classically trained players do indeed play this way, in part because of the complexity and length of their scores, and in part because in their world there is no stigma attached to sheet music. (Although lots of good classical players--most soloists--do play from memory.)
Of course, one of the great things about playing trad music is having all these tunes in your head, available whenever you want them. Our brains are like master ipods or mp3 players, eh? With the added advantage that we can choose either the simple playback function (and just listen to the tune in our mind's ear), or the more engaging mode of physically playing the tunes ourselves.
I believe that the vast majority of us, probably from the cradle, have learnt tunes and songs by ear (in whatever style) and only need familiarity with a musical instrument to pick out a tune on it from memory. What some people seem to lack who have learnt wholly to play an instrument from sheet music is the confidence to attempt to play from memory. I'm sure that's all there is to it.
The way I’m learning the fiddle is by learning tunes by looking at dots first. I have very little outside influence, so apart from listening to Cds it’s my only means of picking up tunes. It is a sort of symbiotic process where learning tunes makes me learn to read the dots. It takes very little time for me to learn a tune so once I know it by memory I will not look at dots until I want to learn another tune. This way I can practice and practice a tune without referring to sheet music. I don’t know if this has much to do with the ear; it’s more about memory. I should probably have a go at learning a tune by listening to the music, which would surely be good for developing my ear. I find this very daunting though, for I really have little faith in my ear for music. I’m sure it would be a miracle if I learnt a tune by ear! So far I know about 20 tunes which still need much refining. It doesn’t seem so many really, does it for 2 and a half years’ work? I think it would be ideal to be able to read tunes and know them by ear as well. Hope I’ve not been boring!
I'm coming in a bit late on this thread, but I note that Tyghress made an interesting point in the comment that learning a tune from a recording enables it to be memorised quickly, but then it's nearly impossible to deviate from what has been heard, and so that exact version of the tune is played thereafter.
This relates closely to when I was learning the cello as a teenager, and working on a Beethoven cello sonata for an eisteddfod (more or less the same as a fleadh). My teacher forbade me to listen to any recordings of that particular sonata until the eisteddod was behind me. Not a particularly difficult injunction as it happened because I didn't have a recording (LPs only in those days!), couldn't afford to buy one, and the local lending library didn't have a copy. The point my teacher made was that if I listened to a recording more than once I would tend to absorb some of the style and mannerisms of the performer, and that was the last thing he wanted to hear, especially in a competition. In other words, one's own interpretation and thoughts about the music are far more important than trying to sound like someone else.
Carver, you're making a very good point that must resonate with many people learning ITM who are forced, for one reason or another, to rely on the dots and CDs for most of their tune learning.
So 20 tunes in 2 1/2 years? That's not bad for someone starting from the beginning, bearing in mind that the first year, at least, is spent on learning the basics of how to control the instrument and get some sort of acceptable noise out it! In most sessions 20 or so tunes under your belt - provided they're reasonably mainstream - will see you through a large part of the proceedings. In most of the sessions I go to I doubt whether we get anywhere near 40 tunes in the evening (probably closer to 30) - although this is a guess, I've never actually done a count. Incidentally, the more tunes you learn, the easier it is to learn more - it's almost an exponential effect, a bit like learning a foreign language.
And don't worry about refining your tunes. It shows you love 'em. Refining is a natural process as you gain experience. Players who learnt tunes decades ago are still refining them. When you stop working on tunes I reckon you're in danger of losing it.
Thecarver, can you put some info in your bio so we know a little more about who we're talking with? We're a friendly bunch (down Jack! Sit! Stay! , and it'll help us give you more appropriate advice. It helps to know what country you live in, and you'd be surprised at how often someone here will pipe up and say, "why I live just down the road from you. Let's get together for some tunes." Which is the most fun way of all to learn your tunes.
Definitely start trying to learn some tunes by ear. It'll force you to listen more closely to the music and how it's played, which will teach you volumes more than the dots ever can.
And don't despair over your ability to learn by ear before you've even given it a serious go. Chances are you've already learned lots of tunes by ear: the Happy Birthday song, Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star, every soft drink jingle ever played on the tv or radio, etc. Now that you're familiar with where the notes are on your instrument, you'll soon get the hang of hearing them in a tune and finding them under your fingers. Like eveything else, it just takes practice.
Anybody who's willing to to buy me nice chocolate is a human being on top, too.
Eoin O Riabiagh told me that he thinks that sheet music is just another tool. Use it if you need it, when you need it. Don't when you don't. Sometimes you have to use a screwdriver instead of a prybar -- no biggie.
Unseen helps make my point. If you sight read a lot and are comfortable with it, it *isn't* necessarily hard to memorize music that way. It's only hard if you're not really fluent with sheet music. Of course, combining the two--by playing the music from the dots and listening to what you're playing--improves your chances of recalling the tune. You'll have muscle memory and aural memory helping with the visual memory of the dots.
Some people--even musicians--have strong visual abilities that allow them to remember what they see in great detail. At times, I can 'see' the sheet music for a tune in my mind's eye and play from that. Usually I rely 99.9 % on my aural memory, but sometimes the mental dots come in handy.
I don't reckon it makes the slightest difference. I learn tunes all 3 ways, off the dots, off CDs, and picking up in sessions. Even off the dots, if I go back to look at the printed version a week later, I find I've already 'rewritten' the tune in at least three places. So relax, the traditional process is still pretty much alive and well, despite print and technology. Do whatever you feel like.
My mate Davie Mallinson (of Session Books fame) reckons you have to listen to ITM for at least six times the length of your practising, so, sorry Trevor of the Eisteddod teenage cello, there's no way you're not going to absorb the mannerisms and style of who you listen to, and thanks heavens for that. It's the very stuff of trad musical life that we remember and replicate all the nice little twiddles and nuances of the fiddler sat next to you. Darwinian atural selection. 'trado' is Latin for 'I hand down'. Pass it on!
Im a traditional classical player, who learns calssical music of the stave, and then memorizes it, which as someone said earlier, is when it really gets the shape and the feeling. Recently I really got into folk, an I started playing from music, but I found that it just didnt have the same feeling or shape to it as if it does at a session in the pub.
So now the majority of the time I'll just pick up the music play ear or off cds, this way i've found i fit in easier at sessions, also i find a know the tune easier, so I can improvise aroundf it.
I am a "challenged" player because I play the B/C Box. Learning the notes is only the beginning of being able to play the tune. You then need to learn which finger to use and which button to press to make the note. When you put all that together you can slowly begin to make the thing sound decent.
So I transcribe the notes to a kind of tablature which tells me which button to press, whether to push or pull and which finger to use to play the note. I learned this method from a teacher. Once that is done, I can begin to play the tune over and over again until the "memory thing" happens. The memory thing seems to be taking longer and longer as I get older.()
If I don't play the tune for a while, I can go back and look at the music with tablature for a refresher.
And you get all this advice free from a person who knows only 20 tunes. ()
I don't read music like a classical musician, but I *do* use it for learning. I find the mechanical part of what-finger-goes-where is much easier from printed (or displayed on the monitor) sources.
However, sound and "feel" can only come from learning and I try to transition away from the dots to playing with a recording (or at least abcmus' rendering of a tune) as quickly as possible.
As far as the memory thing goes, however, I find it much easier to pick up a tune I haven't played in a while if I glance over the dots, first. If not, it tends to get muddled up with any other tune that sounds similar.
"I learned to read, it hasn't hurt my talking any."
It seems to me that the key thing is internalizing the music and playing from memory. How you initially get the tune into your skull is not that important. Some tunes I work out by ear, some I learn from other folks and some from music.
What I find frustrating is that some tunes just seem to pop neatly into my head and stay there, while there are others that I work on for ages, and every time I turn my back on them they try to escape and I practically have to re-learn them from scratch.
When I decided that I was going to get into playing this kind of music properly, I was almost entirely dependent on written music - I could play about two tunes from memory. To wean myself off the printed page, I decided I'd go a year without looking at any dots. It was hard at first, but got easier, and now I know at least three and a half tunes from memory...
Jim, I liked the ceili band knickers story. Mind you, I don't think having the dots implies anything in particular about a band. I know at least one dance band with some top notch players (e.g. Eilidh Shaw on fiddle) and they have the dots in front of them, but to be honest if you're going to be playing for 7 hours straight, with say 15 dances, each one of which might have 20 or 30 tunes, the dots come in very handy as a reminder!
I've hesitated to join in the discussion of sheet music vs aural learning as I didn't feel I had enough experience to judge whether one way vs the other is better...until now. I am still a rank novice with the fiddle and trad music. I had to switch instructors for a couple of reasons, but my current tutor is using Matt Cranitch's book as a guide. His book includes the tunes in written form. He is very clear that the sheet music is the melody only and only suggests the tune as a strating point. A CD came with the book and I also have one of his "performance" discs to use for learning. I also record the tunes during my lessons so I am learning the bare bones with the written transcription as well as listening. I may find my self a little dependant yet on the written stuff, but am finding it easier and quicker after months of lessons. I'm getting somewhere!! I don't feel I am "short sheeting" myself or the "Tradition" by learning this way.
That said, as an example, Last week on Public Television a Boston Pops concert was aired featuring Natalie MacMaster and Michael McDonald as guests. Great concert! Imagine the various types of music the orchestra had to learn in what was probably a week of practice and reheasals and a day with the guests. They played Irish, Scot, Cape Breton & Pop music during the concert. When Ms. MacMaster was on, she did a duet with the concert master. This woman played without the benefit of sheet music, indeed was standing with Ms. MacMaster. The ONLY thing missing was the dancing Ms. MacMaster does! I would imagine it was a wee bit intimidating to play with a Master Fiddler(she did appear a little nervous to me), but she was great and seemed to enjoy it immensly. Didn't listen/see the bit with Michael McDonald, but I am certain these musicians played beautifully then too. BTW, they played "Riverdance" the signature piece from same. It was gorgeous! Played by a full orchestra, the music is lovely, not McTrad or daggy by any standard.
I tend to think that ignorance plays a role in how one views the learning process. The traditional music was/is passed aurally. Not all Irish/Scot/Cape Breton etc musicians have/ had the training in reading sheet music. It simply is another vehicle to learn by.
Deb.
yeah, but it's not whether you can play more than a fraction of the tunes you know at a session, but whether you can come up with the "right" tune at any given moment... given what tunes have already been played, who's present (and how they might react), what the general level of energy is, how well you reckon your fingers will move given the last four pints of 7% beer, etc etc.
sometimes it feels a bit like walking a tightrope, get it right and the light comes into peoples' eyes, the energy level goes up, positive feedback... get it wrong and you're off the rope, the eyes glaze over, people start packing up, oh bugger, try another one, damn too late.
"Ear" players or note players
"Ear" players or note players
I have heard the remark made a few time that it is seldom that playeres who did all their learing from music staff can seldom go on to playing many tunes without having their notes to read.
Do many others think this to me true?
J.B.
# Posted on July 17th 2004 by boorinwood
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Depends on how good their memory is. Most 'play by ear' musicians have only their memory to rely on. 'Staff' players use a combination of 'real tunes' and 'printed notes for the tune' for recall.
Jim
# Posted on July 17th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: "Ear" players or note players
'Ear, 'ear!!
From person who learns from stave and can play/learn by ear too.
Sue.
# Posted on July 17th 2004 by Susie-Lee
Re: "Ear" players or note players
OK - a bit off-topic but I find if playing "classical" stuff that if I learn the music then play it from memory, it's only then that the "shape" of the piece emerges. I think whether you learn by ear or from music, that's only the start of things.
# Posted on July 17th 2004 by Mark Harmer
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Can you clarify, please? Are you asking if we believe that music readers are seldom proficient at memorization?
I find that if I learn a tune from a recording, by ear (this is a relatively new skill for me), I have it memorized quickly. This I suppose is a plus. But I find it nearly impossible to deviate from what I've learned. I play that exact version of the tune.
If I learn from written music it is a lot longer before its memorized, but by then I've 'changed' things enough to have a few unwitting variations on passages as I 'misremember' what's on the page or combine versions from various written sources. That, IMHO, is a plus for my learning/memorizing from the page.
The third way is from hearing something at session often enough that some of it sinks in and I can play along. These tunes I could never play solo, never start, and muck up in general because I'm only playing what I think I hear. Five fiddles, three sets of reeds of one ilk or another, and lord knows how many strings being strummed and skins being beaten, this tends to blur a tune. If I find the written music, what I see seldom matches what I thought I heard. Any recall of these tunes is shoddy at best.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Tyghress
Re: "Ear" players or note players
«I have heard the remark made a few time that it is seldom that playeres who did all their learing from music staff can seldom go on to playing many tunes without having their notes to read.»
Quite possibly. More importantly though, nobody who continues to rely totally on sheet music and is not prepared to develop their ability to learn by ear can become a decent player of Irish traditional music. Well, it's not that they can't become a decent player, it's just that they never do.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: "Ear" players or note players
When I read the notes off of the page, usually it is because I've heard the tune before and either don't have access to a recording of it or the person from whom I first heard it. Other times I go to sheet music because I need to learn a certain tune for a specific purpose, and don't have any other resource. I prefer learning by ear, mainly because it is easy for me and it helps me memorize the tune more quickly (as others have mentioned too). However, there is absolutely NO change in how I emphasize, ornament, and put the proper lilt into a tune because of where I learned it (paper or otherwise). The dots are there as a skeleton of the real tune, and it is up to the player to have the knowledge, insight, and feel for the music to breathe life into that skeleton. Classical players can do it, and non-classical players who read music can do it as well. Of course it depends on how perceptive the individual is and how much they are willing to adjust their playing style to use proper ornamentation, phrasing, bowing, breathing, emphasis, and variation. We all know this. But I honestly don't believe that there is something magical about people who only play by ear, and I certainly don't belive that those who read music are at a disadvantage to learning the tradition.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by violynnsey
Re: "Ear" players or note players
"I have heard the remark made a few time that it is seldom that playeres who did all their learing from music staff can seldom go on to playing many tunes without having their notes to read.
Do many others think this to me true?"
I've learned a fair amount of tunes both from paper and by ear and and I don't find that there is a difference in my ability to recall any of them. How many tunes are we talking about? I never play out with sheet music, and the only problem I have is remembering all the tunes that I know.
Learning the tunes from the dots doesn't teach you emphasis and dynamic. For that one has to listen, listen, and listen some more. When I learn a piece from paper, I usually have heard it somewhere before and have an aural impression of it while I'm learning. The tune may get changed along the way, depending on which instrument I'm playing or which group of folks I'm playing with. But, the bottom line is that how I acquired a tune has little of nothing to do with my memory or ability to learn yet another tune.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Bill Reeder
Re: "Ear" players or note players
It's been said before but I'll repeat it:
playing ITM from sheet music is like reading the manual while driving.
I think we are not talking about players who use sheet music now and then to aid their memory. I know classically trained musicians who never play one single ITM tune without using the dots. And like that you never get anywhere.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by kuec
Re: "Ear" players or note players
I like to get the basics of the tune from dots especially if its complicated but to "play" the tune you have to do it by ear. The dots just slow you down to much. By the time I've worked out which dot I'm supposed to be playing we're on to the third or fourth tune of the set. I think with ITM you get to know by ear a lot of set phrases in the tune and then you kind of string them together - maybe I've got it all wrong!!!!!
Sarah
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Sarah the Flute
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Whether you learn a tune by ear or from the dots, to be able to play the tune from memory means you have to get the tune into your head. Both methods work. How well either one works for a player depends on how experienced that player is with the given method.
Having learned tunes by ear and off the dots for over 20 years, either way comes easy to me. And either way, the tune sticks in my memory as well as a tune learned by the other method.
Of course, you need to listen to a lot of music, and learn tunes by ear, to understand how to turn the dots into living tunes.
People who can learn tunes from the dots also develop the ability to play as they sight read, and they may use that ability if needed (such as playing a new tune on short notice at a wedding - you can have the dots available as a memory aid). But that doesn't mean their memory is somehow impaired because they learned the tune off the dots. In fact, they may have learned the tune by ear and are just using the dots for backup.
It's interesting that this myth keeps coming up, about sight readers somehow being 'impaired by their ability.' I think it represents a misunderstanding by people who can't sight read, based in large part on their experience of 'halfing' musicians who's training emphasizes seeing music over hearing music. But there are legions of fully formed musicians who can play both by ear and by the dots--in the world of professional music, in fact, that is the standard.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Er, I meant "halfling musicians,'as in players who haven't developed their ears and aural memories yet. Us trad players have a hard time imagining playing music for years off sheet music and never really memorizing the tunes. But some classically trained players do indeed play this way, in part because of the complexity and length of their scores, and in part because in their world there is no stigma attached to sheet music. (Although lots of good classical players--most soloists--do play from memory.)
Of course, one of the great things about playing trad music is having all these tunes in your head, available whenever you want them. Our brains are like master ipods or mp3 players, eh? With the added advantage that we can choose either the simple playback function (and just listen to the tune in our mind's ear), or the more engaging mode of physically playing the tunes ourselves.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: "Ear" players or note players
I believe that the vast majority of us, probably from the cradle, have learnt tunes and songs by ear (in whatever style) and only need familiarity with a musical instrument to pick out a tune on it from memory. What some people seem to lack who have learnt wholly to play an instrument from sheet music is the confidence to attempt to play from memory. I'm sure that's all there is to it.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by west-coaster
Re: "Ear" players or note players
The way I’m learning the fiddle is by learning tunes by looking at dots first. I have very little outside influence, so apart from listening to Cds it’s my only means of picking up tunes. It is a sort of symbiotic process where learning tunes makes me learn to read the dots. It takes very little time for me to learn a tune so once I know it by memory I will not look at dots until I want to learn another tune. This way I can practice and practice a tune without referring to sheet music. I don’t know if this has much to do with the ear; it’s more about memory. I should probably have a go at learning a tune by listening to the music, which would surely be good for developing my ear. I find this very daunting though, for I really have little faith in my ear for music. I’m sure it would be a miracle if I learnt a tune by ear! So far I know about 20 tunes which still need much refining. It doesn’t seem so many really, does it for 2 and a half years’ work? I think it would be ideal to be able to read tunes and know them by ear as well. Hope I’ve not been boring!
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by thecarver
Re: "Ear" players or note players
I'm coming in a bit late on this thread, but I note that Tyghress made an interesting point in the comment that learning a tune from a recording enables it to be memorised quickly, but then it's nearly impossible to deviate from what has been heard, and so that exact version of the tune is played thereafter.
This relates closely to when I was learning the cello as a teenager, and working on a Beethoven cello sonata for an eisteddfod (more or less the same as a fleadh). My teacher forbade me to listen to any recordings of that particular sonata until the eisteddod was behind me. Not a particularly difficult injunction as it happened because I didn't have a recording (LPs only in those days!), couldn't afford to buy one, and the local lending library didn't have a copy. The point my teacher made was that if I listened to a recording more than once I would tend to absorb some of the style and mannerisms of the performer, and that was the last thing he wanted to hear, especially in a competition. In other words, one's own interpretation and thoughts about the music are far more important than trying to sound like someone else.
Trevor
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: "Ear" players or note players
jim, I'm getting weird images in my head trying to picture that. I'll just think about something else now for a while if you don't mind.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Carver, you're making a very good point that must resonate with many people learning ITM who are forced, for one reason or another, to rely on the dots and CDs for most of their tune learning.
So 20 tunes in 2 1/2 years? That's not bad for someone starting from the beginning, bearing in mind that the first year, at least, is spent on learning the basics of how to control the instrument and get some sort of acceptable noise out it! In most sessions 20 or so tunes under your belt - provided they're reasonably mainstream - will see you through a large part of the proceedings. In most of the sessions I go to I doubt whether we get anywhere near 40 tunes in the evening (probably closer to 30) - although this is a guess, I've never actually done a count. Incidentally, the more tunes you learn, the easier it is to learn more - it's almost an exponential effect, a bit like learning a foreign language.
And don't worry about refining your tunes. It shows you love 'em. Refining is a natural process as you gain experience. Players who learnt tunes decades ago are still refining them. When you stop working on tunes I reckon you're in danger of losing it.
Trevor
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Thecarver, can you put some info in your bio so we know a little more about who we're talking with? We're a friendly bunch (down Jack! Sit! Stay!
, and it'll help us give you more appropriate advice. It helps to know what country you live in, and you'd be surprised at how often someone here will pipe up and say, "why I live just down the road from you. Let's get together for some tunes." Which is the most fun way of all to learn your tunes.
Definitely start trying to learn some tunes by ear. It'll force you to listen more closely to the music and how it's played, which will teach you volumes more than the dots ever can.
And don't despair over your ability to learn by ear before you've even given it a serious go. Chances are you've already learned lots of tunes by ear: the Happy Birthday song, Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star, every soft drink jingle ever played on the tv or radio, etc. Now that you're familiar with where the notes are on your instrument, you'll soon get the hang of hearing them in a tune and finding them under your fingers. Like eveything else, it just takes practice.
A good source for slow tunes to learn by ear is Zina's slow session playlist. http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/playlist.html
But spend some time just listening to the tunes before trying to learn them. If you can lilt one, it'll be easier to find on your instrument.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Huh?! Whad-eye-do?
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Mostly true why becasue to memorize a tune frome the staff is hard.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Why Bother?
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Will, you're implying that Jack is a dog, but if you lift back all that hair you'll find there's actually a hippie human being underneath.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Woof woof (Jack agrees)
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Anybody who's willing to to buy me nice chocolate is a human being on top, too.
Eoin O Riabiagh told me that he thinks that sheet music is just another tool. Use it if you need it, when you need it. Don't when you don't. Sometimes you have to use a screwdriver instead of a prybar -- no biggie.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Jack, not sure when I'm getting back into the City -- I'll call you here in a little bit!
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: "Ear" players or note players
You were here and now you've left?
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Unseen helps make my point. If you sight read a lot and are comfortable with it, it *isn't* necessarily hard to memorize music that way. It's only hard if you're not really fluent with sheet music. Of course, combining the two--by playing the music from the dots and listening to what you're playing--improves your chances of recalling the tune. You'll have muscle memory and aural memory helping with the visual memory of the dots.
Some people--even musicians--have strong visual abilities that allow them to remember what they see in great detail. At times, I can 'see' the sheet music for a tune in my mind's eye and play from that. Usually I rely 99.9 % on my aural memory, but sometimes the mental dots come in handy.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: "Ear" players or note players
I don't reckon it makes the slightest difference. I learn tunes all 3 ways, off the dots, off CDs, and picking up in sessions. Even off the dots, if I go back to look at the printed version a week later, I find I've already 'rewritten' the tune in at least three places. So relax, the traditional process is still pretty much alive and well, despite print and technology. Do whatever you feel like.
My mate Davie Mallinson (of Session Books fame) reckons you have to listen to ITM for at least six times the length of your practising, so, sorry Trevor of the Eisteddod teenage cello, there's no way you're not going to absorb the mannerisms and style of who you listen to, and thanks heavens for that. It's the very stuff of trad musical life that we remember and replicate all the nice little twiddles and nuances of the fiddler sat next to you. Darwinian atural selection. 'trado' is Latin for 'I hand down'. Pass it on!
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by petemay
Re: "Ear" players or note players
Im a traditional classical player, who learns calssical music of the stave, and then memorizes it, which as someone said earlier, is when it really gets the shape and the feeling. Recently I really got into folk, an I started playing from music, but I found that it just didnt have the same feeling or shape to it as if it does at a session in the pub.
So now the majority of the time I'll just pick up the music play ear or off cds, this way i've found i fit in easier at sessions, also i find a know the tune easier, so I can improvise aroundf it.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Jon
Re: "Ear" players or note players
I am a "challenged" player because I play the B/C Box. Learning the notes is only the beginning of being able to play the tune. You then need to learn which finger to use and which button to press to make the note. When you put all that together you can slowly begin to make the thing sound decent.
)
)
So I transcribe the notes to a kind of tablature which tells me which button to press, whether to push or pull and which finger to use to play the note. I learned this method from a teacher. Once that is done, I can begin to play the tune over and over again until the "memory thing" happens. The memory thing seems to be taking longer and longer as I get older.(
If I don't play the tune for a while, I can go back and look at the music with tablature for a refresher.
And you get all this advice free from a person who knows only 20 tunes. (
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by meowguy
Re: "Ear" players or note players
I don't read music like a classical musician, but I *do* use it for learning. I find the mechanical part of what-finger-goes-where is much easier from printed (or displayed on the monitor) sources.
However, sound and "feel" can only come from learning and I try to transition away from the dots to playing with a recording (or at least abcmus' rendering of a tune) as quickly as possible.
As far as the memory thing goes, however, I find it much easier to pick up a tune I haven't played in a while if I glance over the dots, first. If not, it tends to get muddled up with any other tune that sounds similar.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: "Ear" players or note players
"I learned to read, it hasn't hurt my talking any."
It seems to me that the key thing is internalizing the music and playing from memory. How you initially get the tune into your skull is not that important. Some tunes I work out by ear, some I learn from other folks and some from music.
What I find frustrating is that some tunes just seem to pop neatly into my head and stay there, while there are others that I work on for ages, and every time I turn my back on them they try to escape and I practically have to re-learn them from scratch.
# Posted on July 19th 2004 by KateG
Re: "Ear" players or note players
When I decided that I was going to get into playing this kind of music properly, I was almost entirely dependent on written music - I could play about two tunes from memory. To wean myself off the printed page, I decided I'd go a year without looking at any dots. It was hard at first, but got easier, and now I know at least three and a half tunes from memory...
Jim, I liked the ceili band knickers story. Mind you, I don't think having the dots implies anything in particular about a band. I know at least one dance band with some top notch players (e.g. Eilidh Shaw on fiddle) and they have the dots in front of them, but to be honest if you're going to be playing for 7 hours straight, with say 15 dances, each one of which might have 20 or 30 tunes, the dots come in very handy as a reminder!
# Posted on July 19th 2004 by rog
Re: "Ear" players or note players
I've hesitated to join in the discussion of sheet music vs aural learning as I didn't feel I had enough experience to judge whether one way vs the other is better...until now. I am still a rank novice with the fiddle and trad music. I had to switch instructors for a couple of reasons, but my current tutor is using Matt Cranitch's book as a guide. His book includes the tunes in written form. He is very clear that the sheet music is the melody only and only suggests the tune as a strating point. A CD came with the book and I also have one of his "performance" discs to use for learning. I also record the tunes during my lessons so I am learning the bare bones with the written transcription as well as listening. I may find my self a little dependant yet on the written stuff, but am finding it easier and quicker after months of lessons. I'm getting somewhere!! I don't feel I am "short sheeting" myself or the "Tradition" by learning this way.
That said, as an example, Last week on Public Television a Boston Pops concert was aired featuring Natalie MacMaster and Michael McDonald as guests. Great concert! Imagine the various types of music the orchestra had to learn in what was probably a week of practice and reheasals and a day with the guests. They played Irish, Scot, Cape Breton & Pop music during the concert. When Ms. MacMaster was on, she did a duet with the concert master. This woman played without the benefit of sheet music, indeed was standing with Ms. MacMaster. The ONLY thing missing was the dancing Ms. MacMaster does! I would imagine it was a wee bit intimidating to play with a Master Fiddler(she did appear a little nervous to me), but she was great and seemed to enjoy it immensly. Didn't listen/see the bit with Michael McDonald, but I am certain these musicians played beautifully then too. BTW, they played "Riverdance" the signature piece from same. It was gorgeous! Played by a full orchestra, the music is lovely, not McTrad or daggy by any standard.
I tend to think that ignorance plays a role in how one views the learning process. The traditional music was/is passed aurally. Not all Irish/Scot/Cape Breton etc musicians have/ had the training in reading sheet music. It simply is another vehicle to learn by.
Deb.
# Posted on July 19th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: "Ear" players or note players
yeah, but it's not whether you can play more than a fraction of the tunes you know at a session, but whether you can come up with the "right" tune at any given moment... given what tunes have already been played, who's present (and how they might react), what the general level of energy is, how well you reckon your fingers will move given the last four pints of 7% beer, etc etc.
sometimes it feels a bit like walking a tightrope, get it right and the light comes into peoples' eyes, the energy level goes up, positive feedback... get it wrong and you're off the rope, the eyes glaze over, people start packing up, oh bugger, try another one, damn too late.
# Posted on July 19th 2004 by rog