After about 6 years on flute and whistle I decided that my choice of instruments just didn't attract enough women, so I bought a B/C button accordion. I'm confidant that once I have this beast mastered I will be an unstoppable chick-magnet.
Anyhow, I have a couple of questions.
First, what are the best books, videos, etc for learning? I bought the Mad for Trad B/C tutor and am sorely disappointed.
Second, where can I find out what fingers should be used on which buttons/notes for best range of motion, efficiency, etc? Is there a standard preferred fingering system, or is it pretty much do as you please?
Thanks in advance for all your helpful (and not so helpful) answers.
John Williams has a Homespun Tapes video tutor available. We have one stashed away somewhere in the house, and while I'm no box player, it seemed fairly helpful. Why were you disapponted with Mad For Trad? Just curious?
Hmmm... about the Mad for Trad tutorial. I have a few of them, on various instruments, and I think that in general they don't cover nearly the depth and breadth of what they could and should. I'm left feeling like they said, "Okay, that's good enough..." when they could have aimed for something truly exceptional. There are also some just plain strange decisions made on some of the tutorials. One that comes to mind is the John Doyle guitar tutorial. John is a fantastic guitarist, one of my favorite, and the tutorial is for the most part quite good, but the problem is that John plays left hand and thus all the pictures showing finger positions are for left-handers. That's all well and good for left handed players, or for already skilled guitarists, but for those just starting out it makes the tutorial baffling at best, useless at worst.
The B/C box tutor is decent I suppose, but leaves out some important information. First, the notation of the tunes does not include push-pull information or what finger ought to be used. Second, the video is shot at an angle that makes the fingering sometimes hard to figure out (fingers obscure other fingers, etc). Third, the video, as on all Mad for Trad tutorials is of rather low quality and much detail is missed. Fourth, ornamentation is only demonstrated at high speed. All in all it feels like Derick was in town for the afternoon and they said to him, "Hey, you want to make an accordion tutorial?" To which he replied, yeah, sure, how long will it take?" "Oh, about 2 hours..." "Fine, let's do it." Another big let-down in all of the tutorials is that they feature big names of Irish trad but may have well been done by any decent player. What I mean by this is that, as a decent flute player myself, when I load up a Mad for Trad CD-ROM with Seamus Egan I expect to have him explain how he does some of the special things that make his playing his... his signature ornamentation, how he gets his tone, what excercises he does (did), him teaching tunes he's famous for, etc. The problem is that the tutor turns out to be pretty much completely generic. I think I could have taught it nearly as well (though not with such good crans). I say this not to be critical of the tutors themselves, but rather in critique of the entire style, scope, presentation and philosophy of the Mad for Trad CD-ROMS.
Most of the Mad for Trad tutorials feel this way. With the capabilities of the CD-ROM format Mad for Trad has the opportunity to create truly superb, comprehensive and indespensible tutors that cater to every level of player, from absolute beginner to seasoned sessioneer, but instead they take the "good enough" approach. That's disappointing to me.
So you buy the tutorial partly to get a glimpse into the playing, insight and history of your musical heroes. At the end of the tutor there is a question and answer section covering playing career, influences, advice for learning, common mistakes made. In not one of the four Mad for Trad tutors I've used is more than 30 seconds devoted to each answer. I mean, come on, surely there are some good stories to tell, good anecdotes to share, great experiences from the road. It's like having a beer with your musical hero and telling them they've got five minutes to tell you everything they've learned in their years of playing. It doesn't make sense.
Chris, I liked the Homespun tape that John Williams made as well (although I was actually watching it with a friend and wasn't learning to play myself, so I don't know how helpful it was to *them*, but I'll watch ANYthing with Billy McComiskey or John Williams playing on it, so I also watched Zan MacLeod's Homespun tutor as well!).
In general, I'm not so sure that video and computer general tutorials can be of that much help to someone; everyone has different areas where they're going to need more help in than others. That's why I tend to tout Scoiltrad and local teachers...
Chris, I agree with you that the Madfortrad tutor isn't all it could be. With all the great technology we have these days, surely they could show you the keyboard from the player's perspective, for example. Still, there's lots of good stuff there if you take the time to sift through and find the useful bits.
The John Williams video might be more useful for an absolute beginner, as it comes with a little (four whole pages!) brochure that gives fingerings for the scales and a couple of easy tunes.
To answer your question, there is no standard "system" for fingering, although my sense is that most players tend towards similar patterns and movements.
There are two general approaches to fingering: the one-button-per-finger school, and the sliding school. The one-button people avoid sliding and try to organize their finger movements to always have an "extra" finger ready for the next button. (Billy McComiskey, for example.)
The sliding people (like John Williams and Derek Hickey) use slides from the inside to the outer row to move around and get notes where you don't have a finger to spare. If you study the DH cd, you'll see that that's not all they do.
The John Williams video seems to suggest that you should learn the C scale and the G scale first, and provides a couple of straightforward tunes and fingerings in each of those keys. This is a good idea, and will give you the building blocks to go on to other keys and more complex tunes using consistent (well, as consistent as you can be with the box, anyway) fingerings.
Since you already know a bunch of tunes, I'd look for three or four that fit the box well, and spend time practicing those until you're blue in the face. You want to be able to find/finger all the notes in a tune without having to think about what direction the bellows is going, or where you're going for the next group of notes. I got a lot of mileage out of practicing song tunes like "Star of the County Down" and things like that.
In just 20 minutes a day, you too can become an UNSTOPPABLE BABE MAGNET!! It worked wonders for me! Of course, nowadays I spend all my time in the basement practicing the accordion, or running off to sessions. The only women I attract are carrying trays of beer. Which isn't a bad thing.
What is wrong with " The Box " by David C. Hanrahan & only £5 - £6 & you can get the accompnnying audio tape ( ext.) if you want to play along
Most good button box shops should have it
J.B.
"The Box" by David C. Hanrahan is hardly worth the paper it's printed on. It tells you how to hold the box, how to finger one octave of one scale, and has some nice tunes printed out with no fingerings. Very little useful information, and all available on the internet for free.
It's a bit hit and miss, but you could check out the irishbox group on Yahoo. There's tons of interesting stuff in there if you have time to wade through all the old posts.
As Mary Macnamara and her brother have just brought out a concertina and button box cd, it struck me there is still good practise to be gained from playing along with her concertina cds on button box (or Kitty Hayes or Mrs Crotty) as many of the tunes are in C anyway.
Have a look at some of them in the recordings page and see what you can play along with - maybe slowed down via an ABCplayer.
You won't learn anything about fingering, which was the question, but again, it may be good practise.
Dear Chris, I found 'The box' book handy to get the key of d and g on the b/c box...I think you just use your fingers sequentially, and you can also slide the same finger to the other row so you've got fingers left to go higher and lower in a tune. There are two videos I got in Dublin ...P.J.Hernon and Peter Browne...The former is good for the basics and the second for techniques...When you get really good you can talk to the women as well as play which is a downside with a flute and whistle...Wishing you loads of fun with it. Wendy Ann
You assert that yours is a not-so-helpful answer. I think of it as more of a zen answer... the unwritten equivalent to "be the accordion". It really resonated strongly with me. Thank you.
Wendy,
Yeah, I'm looking forward to playing an instrument that allows me to chat up the drunk Boston college girls who stumble over and say, "Is that an accordion? Wow! I've heard accordion players are amazing in bed. You know I'm part Irish myself... no really. I grew up listening to this stuff... my dad was always listening to Oh Danny Boy and those songs." The other great thing about being able to talk while playing is to tell the damn guitarist that we've moved into the next tune and it's time to play a new set of three chords.
To everyone else, thanks for the fun, helpful and good-humoured replies.
I like watching people's faces when they play Zina, my daughter and her friends kill themselves laughing at the way I scrunch my face up when struggling with a new and the not so new tunes...A friend of mine plays the guitar and fiddle...middle aged like me..and he has such an intense expression of concentration...the absorption of a six year old....an Irish man I once knew...used to sway his head from side to side while he played his mandolin with big hands expressing the most sensitive sound...Wendy Ann
"Most important of all, the Squeezebox is sexy. Although it lacks the phallic thrust of the guitar or the animal magnetism of the drums, the sensuous easing of its bellows, back and forth, drives women crazy. That's what my wife says. In fact she is so concerned that my squeezebox playing will enflame other women she insists that I play it in the shed at the bottom of the garden."
Hmmm... this is all starting to make more and more sense. My folks won't let me practice the box in the house so I sometimes go out in the field with the sheep. Today I was working through my first tune on the box, "An Phis Fhliuch", trying to touch all the right buttons just so, get my fingering nice, smooth and easy, and get the in and out rhythm to feel just right. The sheep started looking at me in a way I've never seen before. Usually I can tell by their looks that they're just interested in food, but this afternoon it was something different... I can't place my finger on it just yet. I can't wait to try this out on a bar full of women.
Chris, are you sure it wasn't just that your shirt looked edible or something? Had you taken a shower this morning? Was there something about you that just shouted "sheep magnet!"?
Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Hi folks,
After about 6 years on flute and whistle I decided that my choice of instruments just didn't attract enough women, so I bought a B/C button accordion. I'm confidant that once I have this beast mastered I will be an unstoppable chick-magnet.
Anyhow, I have a couple of questions.
First, what are the best books, videos, etc for learning? I bought the Mad for Trad B/C tutor and am sorely disappointed.
Second, where can I find out what fingers should be used on which buttons/notes for best range of motion, efficiency, etc? Is there a standard preferred fingering system, or is it pretty much do as you please?
Thanks in advance for all your helpful (and not so helpful) answers.
Peace,
Chris
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by ChrisLaughlin
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
John Williams has a Homespun Tapes video tutor available. We have one stashed away somewhere in the house, and while I'm no box player, it seemed fairly helpful. Why were you disapponted with Mad For Trad? Just curious?
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by Bill Reeder
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Chris if you really want to be a chick magnet/session stud, go for the pipes
Oh course I think the C#/D box is the sexiest of all IMHO....but I guess there's no accounting for taste.
Good luck with it.
Joyce
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by JMH
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Hmmm... about the Mad for Trad tutorial. I have a few of them, on various instruments, and I think that in general they don't cover nearly the depth and breadth of what they could and should. I'm left feeling like they said, "Okay, that's good enough..." when they could have aimed for something truly exceptional. There are also some just plain strange decisions made on some of the tutorials. One that comes to mind is the John Doyle guitar tutorial. John is a fantastic guitarist, one of my favorite, and the tutorial is for the most part quite good, but the problem is that John plays left hand and thus all the pictures showing finger positions are for left-handers. That's all well and good for left handed players, or for already skilled guitarists, but for those just starting out it makes the tutorial baffling at best, useless at worst.
The B/C box tutor is decent I suppose, but leaves out some important information. First, the notation of the tunes does not include push-pull information or what finger ought to be used. Second, the video is shot at an angle that makes the fingering sometimes hard to figure out (fingers obscure other fingers, etc). Third, the video, as on all Mad for Trad tutorials is of rather low quality and much detail is missed. Fourth, ornamentation is only demonstrated at high speed. All in all it feels like Derick was in town for the afternoon and they said to him, "Hey, you want to make an accordion tutorial?" To which he replied, yeah, sure, how long will it take?" "Oh, about 2 hours..." "Fine, let's do it." Another big let-down in all of the tutorials is that they feature big names of Irish trad but may have well been done by any decent player. What I mean by this is that, as a decent flute player myself, when I load up a Mad for Trad CD-ROM with Seamus Egan I expect to have him explain how he does some of the special things that make his playing his... his signature ornamentation, how he gets his tone, what excercises he does (did), him teaching tunes he's famous for, etc. The problem is that the tutor turns out to be pretty much completely generic. I think I could have taught it nearly as well (though not with such good crans). I say this not to be critical of the tutors themselves, but rather in critique of the entire style, scope, presentation and philosophy of the Mad for Trad CD-ROMS.
Most of the Mad for Trad tutorials feel this way. With the capabilities of the CD-ROM format Mad for Trad has the opportunity to create truly superb, comprehensive and indespensible tutors that cater to every level of player, from absolute beginner to seasoned sessioneer, but instead they take the "good enough" approach. That's disappointing to me.
Best,
Chris
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by ChrisLaughlin
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
One more note about the tutorials....
So you buy the tutorial partly to get a glimpse into the playing, insight and history of your musical heroes. At the end of the tutor there is a question and answer section covering playing career, influences, advice for learning, common mistakes made. In not one of the four Mad for Trad tutors I've used is more than 30 seconds devoted to each answer. I mean, come on, surely there are some good stories to tell, good anecdotes to share, great experiences from the road. It's like having a beer with your musical hero and telling them they've got five minutes to tell you everything they've learned in their years of playing. It doesn't make sense.
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by ChrisLaughlin
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Chris, I liked the Homespun tape that John Williams made as well (although I was actually watching it with a friend and wasn't learning to play myself, so I don't know how helpful it was to *them*, but I'll watch ANYthing with Billy McComiskey or John Williams playing on it, so I also watched Zan MacLeod's Homespun tutor as well!).
In general, I'm not so sure that video and computer general tutorials can be of that much help to someone; everyone has different areas where they're going to need more help in than others. That's why I tend to tout Scoiltrad and local teachers...
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Chris, I agree with you that the Madfortrad tutor isn't all it could be. With all the great technology we have these days, surely they could show you the keyboard from the player's perspective, for example. Still, there's lots of good stuff there if you take the time to sift through and find the useful bits.
The John Williams video might be more useful for an absolute beginner, as it comes with a little (four whole pages!) brochure that gives fingerings for the scales and a couple of easy tunes.
To answer your question, there is no standard "system" for fingering, although my sense is that most players tend towards similar patterns and movements.
There are two general approaches to fingering: the one-button-per-finger school, and the sliding school. The one-button people avoid sliding and try to organize their finger movements to always have an "extra" finger ready for the next button. (Billy McComiskey, for example.)
The sliding people (like John Williams and Derek Hickey) use slides from the inside to the outer row to move around and get notes where you don't have a finger to spare. If you study the DH cd, you'll see that that's not all they do.
The John Williams video seems to suggest that you should learn the C scale and the G scale first, and provides a couple of straightforward tunes and fingerings in each of those keys. This is a good idea, and will give you the building blocks to go on to other keys and more complex tunes using consistent (well, as consistent as you can be with the box, anyway) fingerings.
Since you already know a bunch of tunes, I'd look for three or four that fit the box well, and spend time practicing those until you're blue in the face. You want to be able to find/finger all the notes in a tune without having to think about what direction the bellows is going, or where you're going for the next group of notes. I got a lot of mileage out of practicing song tunes like "Star of the County Down" and things like that.
In just 20 minutes a day, you too can become an UNSTOPPABLE BABE MAGNET!! It worked wonders for me! Of course, nowadays I spend all my time in the basement practicing the accordion, or running off to sessions. The only women I attract are carrying trays of beer. Which isn't a bad thing.
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
What is wrong with " The Box " by David C. Hanrahan & only £5 - £6 & you can get the accompnnying audio tape ( ext.) if you want to play along
Most good button box shops should have it
J.B.
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by boorinwood
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Thanks so much for the excellent answers, insight and advice. Keep it coming.
Best,
Chris
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by ChrisLaughlin
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
"The Box" by David C. Hanrahan is hardly worth the paper it's printed on. It tells you how to hold the box, how to finger one octave of one scale, and has some nice tunes printed out with no fingerings. Very little useful information, and all available on the internet for free.
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
It's a bit hit and miss, but you could check out the irishbox group on Yahoo. There's tons of interesting stuff in there if you have time to wade through all the old posts.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishbox/
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Wow, Gzeg, great post up there...
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
As Mary Macnamara and her brother have just brought out a concertina and button box cd, it struck me there is still good practise to be gained from playing along with her concertina cds on button box (or Kitty Hayes or Mrs Crotty) as many of the tunes are in C anyway.
Have a look at some of them in the recordings page and see what you can play along with - maybe slowed down via an ABCplayer.
You won't learn anything about fingering, which was the question, but again, it may be good practise.
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Dear Chris, I found 'The box' book handy to get the key of d and g on the b/c box...I think you just use your fingers sequentially, and you can also slide the same finger to the other row so you've got fingers left to go higher and lower in a tune. There are two videos I got in Dublin ...P.J.Hernon and Peter Browne...The former is good for the basics and the second for techniques...When you get really good you can talk to the women as well as play which is a downside with a flute and whistle...Wishing you loads of fun with it. Wendy Ann
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by wendyann
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Chris
In your first post you say thank you for the not so helpful answers.
Here's one.
Dave
# Posted on July 5th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Dave,
You assert that yours is a not-so-helpful answer. I think of it as more of a zen answer... the unwritten equivalent to "be the accordion". It really resonated strongly with me. Thank you.
Wendy,
Yeah, I'm looking forward to playing an instrument that allows me to chat up the drunk Boston college girls who stumble over and say, "Is that an accordion? Wow! I've heard accordion players are amazing in bed. You know I'm part Irish myself... no really. I grew up listening to this stuff... my dad was always listening to Oh Danny Boy and those songs." The other great thing about being able to talk while playing is to tell the damn guitarist that we've moved into the next tune and it's time to play a new set of three chords.
To everyone else, thanks for the fun, helpful and good-humoured replies.
Chris
# Posted on July 5th 2004 by ChrisLaughlin
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
LOL -- Chris, you rock.
I always prefer the guys who can't talk while they play. It's so cute to watch them try and get the sentence out with the tune still going on.
# Posted on July 5th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
I like watching people's faces when they play Zina, my daughter and her friends kill themselves laughing at the way I scrunch my face up when struggling with a new and the not so new tunes...A friend of mine plays the guitar and fiddle...middle aged like me..and he has such an intense expression of concentration...the absorption of a six year old....an Irish man I once knew...used to sway his head from side to side while he played his mandolin with big hands expressing the most sensitive sound...Wendy Ann
# Posted on July 5th 2004 by wendyann
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Ah, back in the dark ages of our past: http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/881
# Posted on July 5th 2004 by Zina Lee
Why the Squeezebox is sexy:
Speaking of chick-magnets!
"Most important of all, the Squeezebox is sexy. Although it lacks the phallic thrust of the guitar or the animal magnetism of the drums, the sensuous easing of its bellows, back and forth, drives women crazy. That's what my wife says. In fact she is so concerned that my squeezebox playing will enflame other women she insists that I play it in the shed at the bottom of the garden."
Martyn Day, The Guardian, March 2004
# Posted on July 5th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Hmmm... this is all starting to make more and more sense. My folks won't let me practice the box in the house so I sometimes go out in the field with the sheep. Today I was working through my first tune on the box, "An Phis Fhliuch", trying to touch all the right buttons just so, get my fingering nice, smooth and easy, and get the in and out rhythm to feel just right. The sheep started looking at me in a way I've never seen before. Usually I can tell by their looks that they're just interested in food, but this afternoon it was something different... I can't place my finger on it just yet. I can't wait to try this out on a bar full of women.
Chris
# Posted on July 5th 2004 by ChrisLaughlin
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Oh course any instrument played *very well* always increases your chances of getting laid/shagged/whatever
Joyce
# Posted on July 5th 2004 by JMH
Re: Bought a B/C box... need a small bit of help.
Chris, are you sure it wasn't just that your shirt looked edible or something? Had you taken a shower this morning? Was there something about you that just shouted "sheep magnet!"?
# Posted on July 5th 2004 by Zina Lee