How do all y'all ("all y'all" is plural for "y'all" in case some of you on the other side of the pond aren't aware of that - but I digress) deal with the Turlough O'Carolan canon at sessions? I think we all know that it isn't trad by any stretch, and most players I've met don't even count it as being particularly Irish. There are, of course, a few standards that I probably don't need to name, but I just wonder how you feel about the tunes, including them in sessions, and most particularly, the people who start them.
I don't personally particularly mind them, but I do know a few players who will at best sit there with a disgusted look on their faces if someone tries to start up any. (I often think that if they were a cat, their ears would be flattened.) At worst they will huffily put their instruments down and they'll go off to the bar.
Mind you, if it happened more than once or twice in one night, I'd probably do the same thing. (Minus the huff and the ears.) Just not my cup of tea for an entire night.
My husband learned a couple on the mandolin and they sounded nice. Sadly he hasn't picked up his mandolin in ages...
We don't play them at our sessions up here too often.(I personally don't know any...yet) But once in a while it's nice to hear them on a harp. I'm also kinda curious to hear what other people think of them in sessions...
Where would The Chieftains be without Mr. O' ?
Then again, some people glare daggers at you when you mention The Chieftains. Sure they're hardly Irish at all at all.
Whoa, I've never heard of people disliking O'Carolan. That amazes me; what's there not to like? He's composed some of the loveliest melodies that I've ever heard. Besides the Chieftains, many other musicians play O'Carolan's compositions:
Lunasa
Robin Bullock
Randal Bays
Jerry O'Sullivan
Patrick Street
Joanie Madden
The Irish Tradition
Mick Moloney
Myself
Okay, that last one doesn't count for much, but if it's good enough for the big boys, it's good enough for me. Another excellent recording (not posted here at the session) is "O'Carolan's Harp" by Andrew Lawerence King and his consort. It is a perfect mixture of well-known tunes (Loftus Jones, Farewell to Music) and not-so-well-known ones.
Frank Harte explained to me that O'Carolan's music was written for the most part for those that could pay him, not necessarily for the common man. He certainly was Irish, and is much admired for his compositions, it's just not what we would play in a session for our own pleasure. My 2c.
I think what Ailin was trying to say is that the tunes are not Irish in construction (although they've had 250 years to be absorbed into the tradition), rather than that the feller himself wasn't. Personally I'm quite fond of the stuff, but that's just me.
And anyone who was born in a place called Nobber needs all the love they can get.
Carolan's great - of course he was influenced by Italian baroque music but who cares, a great melody transcends that.
Carolan's concerto played on the box by John Whelan kicks @ss !
The question wouldn't even arise if Carolan had not been taken up so enthusiastically by "ITM" musicians in the first place, so that now we have all heard his tunes. Writing turns on commission - so what? How else was a harper supposed to survive?
Not particularly Irish? What does that mean? Many of our best exponents of ITM play tunes which aren't particularly Irish or even remotely so. Sometimes, O'Carolan tunes get a bad name at sessions as they tend to be murdered by beginners but they're not necessarily that easy to play properly and with subtlety. Again, it all depends on the type of session. Some people believe that it should be almost entirely "reels and jigs" and preferably "reels" but I think there's a bit more to music than that.
Since I play harp, I have lots of O'Carolan tunes in my repertoire. They are great for weddings and when people ask for something "classical". I tell them, "well I have a few baroque tunes, I'll play them."
I don't love them at sessions, and it's understandable, but annoying too when people want me to play them at a session, just because they see I play harp. I actually don't even bring the harp out to sessions anymore. When I do actually venture out, that is.
A good tune is a good tune and O'Carolan wrote plenty!
Cormac Breathnach (whistle player) gives very idiosyncratic renderings of "Sí beag Sí mor" and "Planxty Irwin" I personally think they come off really well. ITM? who cares?!!
Just because some people prefer to play just reels, jigs and the occasional hornpipe in a session doesn't really make them a "snob" does it? For some folks, that's just their personal preference. I do know some very nice people who play the music very well and they mostly play reels in a session. That's just what they like to do. But I would never consider them to be snobs because they don’t want to play O’Carolan Pieces at their sessions. Remember, there are tons of people on this message board with all kinds of different tastes and personal preferences.
I personally don't mind if a couple O'Carolan pieces are played during the session. But I don't think I'd want to hear too many in a *session*. I do think they sound lovely at weddings and I enjoy hearing them performed on stage…….much more so than in a tight, rocking session. And I hope that doesn’t make me an Irish music snob
I always laugh when I see someone referring to someone else (or a group of people) as a "snob"....It's ironic because doesn't it take one to know one??
It's *ALL* good. If you fancy O'Carolan at your session, cool. If not, that's fine. I just like hearing what other people think about different things played in sessions....I think Ailin wanted to know how we feel about them in *sessions*......
Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. So a well balanced session might comprise of several sets of reels, a fair few jigs, slip jigs and a few hornpipes and polkas, maybe some highlands, mazurkas, the odd slow air, the odd song, but definitely one or two O'Carolan comps.
We even get the odd French tune in. I don't see the problem. I suppose if there were loads of O'Carolans, one after the other, the session would lose its Gaelic feel, because, as someone pointed out above, they are composed in an Italian Baroque fashion.
Just a point of clarification: My question did not contain any opinions of my own. There is nothing Irish in character about O'Carolan's music; no one else in Ireland ever wrote like him, to my knowledge. However, he was prolific, his tunes are beautiful, and many well-known players have recorded him. My own opinion is that the tunes sound better on harp (for which they were composed) than they do on other instruments, but I play them all the time. I just wondered how you guys felt about the tunes at sessions - no slight on Turlough intended.
Danny said, "I don't see the problem". Gosh, should there ever really be a problem with playing what you want with your music mates? Isn't a session a conversation between like-minded musicians who want to talk about topics they have in common and are interpreted in discussing? And since there are people from all over the world and all walks of life, every session will be different. Some will have a variety of tunes and some may not. There’s no right or wrong to what you want to play or discuss, right? I certainly know what I want to "talk" about with my friends and we have fun playing music together. You might not hear us play O’Carolan tunes (mostly because we just don’t know any) but I hope we wouldn’t be considered “snobs”. (We did mention once that we should learn some slower stuff. And our piper does play some gorgeous slow airs.)
Jonathan, I don’t think anyone said there’s something “wrong” with O’Carolan tunes. And I hope you don’t think people who don’t play them in sessions are snobs….but hey, I guess were all entitled to our own opinions. I thought about posting a thread that would go something like this : “What is an Irish Music Snob anyway???” I’ve never considered anyone a snob in the Music for knowing what they like and playing what they want. I guess when people are mean and intolerant to other musicians, that’s another story
If Loftus Jones isn't a session tune it's only because it's too difficult to play at session speeds. I am vary fond of listening to Mick Moloney's version. Talk about kickin' A.
Dave - that tune, in English "Give me Your Hand" is attributed to Rory "Dall" O Cathain who died before Carolan was born.
I first heard it on "Chieftains 4" then I heard Planxty's version. For a while (around late 70s) it was so much played in sessions and festivals it became a "donkey tune", if not a "daggy donkey tune". A beautiful tune nevertheless.
I fairly ambivalent feelings about O'Carolan tunes. Almost every blow-in from out of town wants to play either the Concerto, Fanny Power, Irwin, or the Draught as a party piece, often haltingly or too fast and out of tune to boot. So of course I have a lot of bad associations with the "greatest hits": bluegrassers trying to play O'C's Draught, Concerto, or George Brabazon on F-style mandolin or 5-string banjo and sounding like a typewriter, etc. And then they just sit there and stare at you while you and all of your friends play tight, well-executed sets of traditional jigs and reels like it's your fault they can't join in the fun. Like I'm supposed to fawn all over them for just showing up even if they can't play their way out of a paper bag and yet they nsist on hoggin the limelight cuz it's all about them, isn't it?
But then there are the lesser-known gems in the canon, the Planxties O'Connor (John and Charles), Plaxty MaGuire, Bumper Squire Jones, Mary O'Neill, and of course Loftus Jones. I know some of these but would not play them in a session context. I've played them at weddings and they go over well in that context, especially as prelude music for the ceremony.
"Draught as a party piece, often haltingly or too fast" -- do we have a formal record of how fast exactly O'Carolan played this? And is that the only allowed speed? Or is that simply "traditional", ie: "as as fast as the musician playing it abd who talks the loudest thinks is proper"? I personally play it at a good clip, myself, because it reminds me of the Bach I used to play. What fun is a pint that's been allowed to go dead and altogether too warm?
To expand on my initial comment: They played it like a very fast reel without any lilt or swing, ahead of the beat constantly so they start at, say 150 bpm and speed up throughout the tune, ending at about 180 bpm or more. Unlistenable dreck - no variations, no phrasing, just
picketypicketypicketypicketypicketystrumpicketypicketypicketypickety...you get the idea.
BTW O Carolan's Draught refers to whisky, probably the homemade (90%+ABV)kind, his drink of choice, not beer. No worries about it going flat, although it might dissolve the glass. No wonder the man was blind...
I live in O'Carolan country, and we all play the occasional O'Carolan tune in our sessions and nobody has any problem with it. As several people have already pointed out, there is more to the music than reels.
I'm afraid for some, O'Carolan's stuff is used a whole class of "Donkey tunes" to reinforce group superiority and exclusivity.
The fact that people can do this to such good tunes is sad, but all too common in the Sessions of the "Exclusive Brethren".
PP
I really object to that Pied - maybe these people really hate the most commonly played O'Carolan tunes because they've heard them done badly too many times by people WHO DON'T KNOW ANY OTHER TUNES OR HOW TO PLAY IN A REASONABLY AUTHENTIC STYLE.
O'Carolan
O'Carolan
How do all y'all ("all y'all" is plural for "y'all" in case some of you on the other side of the pond aren't aware of that - but I digress) deal with the Turlough O'Carolan canon at sessions? I think we all know that it isn't trad by any stretch, and most players I've met don't even count it as being particularly Irish. There are, of course, a few standards that I probably don't need to name, but I just wonder how you feel about the tunes, including them in sessions, and most particularly, the people who start them.
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Ailin
Re: O'Carolan
I don't personally particularly mind them, but I do know a few players who will at best sit there with a disgusted look on their faces if someone tries to start up any. (I often think that if they were a cat, their ears would be flattened.) At worst they will huffily put their instruments down and they'll go off to the bar.
Mind you, if it happened more than once or twice in one night, I'd probably do the same thing. (Minus the huff and the ears.) Just not my cup of tea for an entire night.
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: O'Carolan
My husband learned a couple on the mandolin and they sounded nice. Sadly he hasn't picked up his mandolin in ages...
We don't play them at our sessions up here too often.(I personally don't know any...yet) But once in a while it's nice to hear them on a harp. I'm also kinda curious to hear what other people think of them in sessions...
Joyce
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by JMH
Re: O'Carolan
Where would The Chieftains be without Mr. O' ?
Then again, some people glare daggers at you when you mention The Chieftains. Sure they're hardly Irish at all at all.
Joe GRIN
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: O'Carolan
Correction - they're Irish ex-bank managers.
It had to be said.
Jim
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: O'Carolan
Whoa, I've never heard of people disliking O'Carolan. That amazes me; what's there not to like? He's composed some of the loveliest melodies that I've ever heard. Besides the Chieftains, many other musicians play O'Carolan's compositions:
Lunasa
Robin Bullock
Randal Bays
Jerry O'Sullivan
Patrick Street
Joanie Madden
The Irish Tradition
Mick Moloney
Myself
Okay, that last one doesn't count for much, but if it's good enough for the big boys, it's good enough for me. Another excellent recording (not posted here at the session) is "O'Carolan's Harp" by Andrew Lawerence King and his consort. It is a perfect mixture of well-known tunes (Loftus Jones, Farewell to Music) and not-so-well-known ones.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000001TZM/104-2832183-5314339?v=glance
-Jonathan
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by jdave
Re: O'Carolan
'most players I've met don't even count it as being particularly Irish'. What?
Are you mad?
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Ottery
Re: O'Carolan
Frank Harte explained to me that O'Carolan's music was written for the most part for those that could pay him, not necessarily for the common man. He certainly was Irish, and is much admired for his compositions, it's just not what we would play in a session for our own pleasure. My 2c.
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: O'Carolan
I think what Ailin was trying to say is that the tunes are not Irish in construction (although they've had 250 years to be absorbed into the tradition), rather than that the feller himself wasn't. Personally I'm quite fond of the stuff, but that's just me.
And anyone who was born in a place called Nobber needs all the love they can get.
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by bc_box_player
Re: O'Carolan
Don't you just hate ITM snobs? There's nothing wrong with O'carolan.
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: O'Carolan
Carolan's great - of course he was influenced by Italian baroque music but who cares, a great melody transcends that.
Carolan's concerto played on the box by John Whelan kicks @ss !
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Cath
Re: O'Carolan
Thanks Cath - you've just told me which tune I'm going to learn tonight...got to do our bit to keep the ITM snobs down ;->
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by bc_box_player
Re: O'Carolan
The question wouldn't even arise if Carolan had not been taken up so enthusiastically by "ITM" musicians in the first place, so that now we have all heard his tunes. Writing turns on commission - so what? How else was a harper supposed to survive?
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Bren
Re: O'Carolan
Not particularly Irish? What does that mean? Many of our best exponents of ITM play tunes which aren't particularly Irish or even remotely so. Sometimes, O'Carolan tunes get a bad name at sessions as they tend to be murdered by beginners but they're not necessarily that easy to play properly and with subtlety. Again, it all depends on the type of session. Some people believe that it should be almost entirely "reels and jigs" and preferably "reels" but I think there's a bit more to music than that.
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: O'Carolan
Since I play harp, I have lots of O'Carolan tunes in my repertoire. They are great for weddings and when people ask for something "classical". I tell them, "well I have a few baroque tunes, I'll play them."
I don't love them at sessions, and it's understandable, but annoying too when people want me to play them at a session, just because they see I play harp. I actually don't even bring the harp out to sessions anymore. When I do actually venture out, that is.
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Andee
Re: O'Carolan
There are enough O'C pieces playable in sessions which will not offend the "no slow airs" contingency.
Planxty Brabazon being a fave of mine.
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: O'Carolan
A good tune is a good tune and O'Carolan wrote plenty!
Cormac Breathnach (whistle player) gives very idiosyncratic renderings of "Sí beag Sí mor" and "Planxty Irwin" I personally think they come off really well. ITM? who cares?!!
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Twiz
Re: O'Carolan
Just because some people prefer to play just reels, jigs and the occasional hornpipe in a session doesn't really make them a "snob" does it? For some folks, that's just their personal preference. I do know some very nice people who play the music very well and they mostly play reels in a session. That's just what they like to do. But I would never consider them to be snobs because they don’t want to play O’Carolan Pieces at their sessions. Remember, there are tons of people on this message board with all kinds of different tastes and personal preferences.
I personally don't mind if a couple O'Carolan pieces are played during the session. But I don't think I'd want to hear too many in a *session*. I do think they sound lovely at weddings and I enjoy hearing them performed on stage…….much more so than in a tight, rocking session. And I hope that doesn’t make me an Irish music snob
Joyce
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by JMH
Re: PS-
I always laugh when I see someone referring to someone else (or a group of people) as a "snob"....It's ironic because doesn't it take one to know one??
It's *ALL* good. If you fancy O'Carolan at your session, cool. If not, that's fine. I just like hearing what other people think about different things played in sessions....I think Ailin wanted to know how we feel about them in *sessions*......
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by JMH
Re: O'Carolan
I agree whole heartedly with Jocklet.
Johnathan
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Harper_Lad
Re: O'Carolan
Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. So a well balanced session might comprise of several sets of reels, a fair few jigs, slip jigs and a few hornpipes and polkas, maybe some highlands, mazurkas, the odd slow air, the odd song, but definitely one or two O'Carolan comps.
We even get the odd French tune in. I don't see the problem. I suppose if there were loads of O'Carolans, one after the other, the session would lose its Gaelic feel, because, as someone pointed out above, they are composed in an Italian Baroque fashion.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: O'Carolan
Just a point of clarification: My question did not contain any opinions of my own. There is nothing Irish in character about O'Carolan's music; no one else in Ireland ever wrote like him, to my knowledge. However, he was prolific, his tunes are beautiful, and many well-known players have recorded him. My own opinion is that the tunes sound better on harp (for which they were composed) than they do on other instruments, but I play them all the time. I just wondered how you guys felt about the tunes at sessions - no slight on Turlough intended.
Cheers.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Ailin
Re: O'Carolan
Danny said, "I don't see the problem". Gosh, should there ever really be a problem with playing what you want with your music mates? Isn't a session a conversation between like-minded musicians who want to talk about topics they have in common and are interpreted in discussing? And since there are people from all over the world and all walks of life, every session will be different. Some will have a variety of tunes and some may not. There’s no right or wrong to what you want to play or discuss, right? I certainly know what I want to "talk" about with my friends and we have fun playing music together. You might not hear us play O’Carolan tunes (mostly because we just don’t know any) but I hope we wouldn’t be considered “snobs”. (We did mention once that we should learn some slower stuff. And our piper does play some gorgeous slow airs.)
Jonathan, I don’t think anyone said there’s something “wrong” with O’Carolan tunes. And I hope you don’t think people who don’t play them in sessions are snobs….but hey, I guess were all entitled to our own opinions. I thought about posting a thread that would go something like this : “What is an Irish Music Snob anyway???” I’ve never considered anyone a snob in the Music for knowing what they like and playing what they want. I guess when people are mean and intolerant to other musicians, that’s another story
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by JMH
Re: O'Carolan
"interested in discussing", not interpreted! damn spell check
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by JMH
Re: O'Carolan
If Loftus Jones isn't a session tune it's only because it's too difficult to play at session speeds. I am vary fond of listening to Mick Moloney's version. Talk about kickin' A.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: O'Carolan
On a mandolin - not a harp btw.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: O'Carolan
well you know, just because it isn't a reel doesn't mean you'll die for playing it.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Harper_Lad
Re: O'Carolan
Planxty do a beautiful O'Carolan tune- Tablhair dom Laih.
And I think O'Carolan tunes can be played with all sorts of ensembles, they are hardly limited to the harp.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by dave73
Re: O'Carolan
Dave - that tune, in English "Give me Your Hand" is attributed to Rory "Dall" O Cathain who died before Carolan was born.
I first heard it on "Chieftains 4" then I heard Planxty's version. For a while (around late 70s) it was so much played in sessions and festivals it became a "donkey tune", if not a "daggy donkey tune". A beautiful tune nevertheless.
Some theories about it here:
http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/g/givemeyo.html
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Bren
Re: O'Carolan
I fairly ambivalent feelings about O'Carolan tunes. Almost every blow-in from out of town wants to play either the Concerto, Fanny Power, Irwin, or the Draught as a party piece, often haltingly or too fast and out of tune to boot. So of course I have a lot of bad associations with the "greatest hits": bluegrassers trying to play O'C's Draught, Concerto, or George Brabazon on F-style mandolin or 5-string banjo and sounding like a typewriter, etc. And then they just sit there and stare at you while you and all of your friends play tight, well-executed sets of traditional jigs and reels like it's your fault they can't join in the fun. Like I'm supposed to fawn all over them for just showing up even if they can't play their way out of a paper bag and yet they nsist on hoggin the limelight cuz it's all about them, isn't it?
But then there are the lesser-known gems in the canon, the Planxties O'Connor (John and Charles), Plaxty MaGuire, Bumper Squire Jones, Mary O'Neill, and of course Loftus Jones. I know some of these but would not play them in a session context. I've played them at weddings and they go over well in that context, especially as prelude music for the ceremony.
# Posted on June 30th 2004 by Hanley
Into the fray!
"Draught as a party piece, often haltingly or too fast" -- do we have a formal record of how fast exactly O'Carolan played this? And is that the only allowed speed? Or is that simply "traditional", ie: "as as fast as the musician playing it abd who talks the loudest thinks is proper"? I personally play it at a good clip, myself, because it reminds me of the Bach I used to play. What fun is a pint that's been allowed to go dead and altogether too warm?
# Posted on June 30th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: O'Carolan
To expand on my initial comment: They played it like a very fast reel without any lilt or swing, ahead of the beat constantly so they start at, say 150 bpm and speed up throughout the tune, ending at about 180 bpm or more. Unlistenable dreck - no variations, no phrasing, just
picketypicketypicketypicketypicketystrumpicketypicketypicketypickety...you get the idea.
BTW O Carolan's Draught refers to whisky, probably the homemade (90%+ABV)kind, his drink of choice, not beer. No worries about it going flat, although it might dissolve the glass. No wonder the man was blind...
# Posted on June 30th 2004 by Hanley
Re: O'Carolan
I live in O'Carolan country, and we all play the occasional O'Carolan tune in our sessions and nobody has any problem with it. As several people have already pointed out, there is more to the music than reels.
# Posted on June 30th 2004 by MollyB
Re: O'Carolan
I'm afraid for some, O'Carolan's stuff is used a whole class of "Donkey tunes" to reinforce group superiority and exclusivity.
The fact that people can do this to such good tunes is sad, but all too common in the Sessions of the "Exclusive Brethren".
PP
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: O'Carolan
I really object to that Pied - maybe these people really hate the most commonly played O'Carolan tunes because they've heard them done badly too many times by people WHO DON'T KNOW ANY OTHER TUNES OR HOW TO PLAY IN A REASONABLY AUTHENTIC STYLE.
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Hanley
Re: O'Carolan
THERE'S NO MEED TO SHOUT; I'M NOT DEAF
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: O'Carolan
OR EVEN NEED
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: O'Carolan
There's no mead to shout either. The bottle's empty.
# Posted on July 2nd 2004 by GraemeO