We've taken a couple of swipes on this site at traditionalists and those who challenge tradition. Riverdance has been a lightning rod for this kind of criticism.
I happen to like Bill Whelan's music very much. It's not pure trad, but it's very good, and I think he manages to expand Celtic and other related styles into broader performance venues w/o making it treacly.
While reading an interview of Bill Whelan from Dirty Linen #63, I came across this passage that I found extremely interesting in light of the "What is ITM and its place in modern societies?" question. I offer this not to spark off any spirited discussions/tribal warfare, but only as a thinkpiece for those who like to consider traditions and their evolution over time:
"One of the more striking features of Riverdance, which is all the more remarkable considering that the show draws so heavily on Irish traditions, is the overt sensuality of much of the dancing. "The Irish have very often separated sex and spirituality as if they were unable to coexist in the one human," said Whelan. "I am strongly of the view that a spirituality without sexuality and sensuality is arid. Sensuality is what much of the work is about."
In time, the show has, of course, attracted its share of criticism. In Ireland, a nation of begrudgers at the best of times, the success of the show has been so total and so quick that there is no shortage of people willing to take a swipe at it. Even old pal Christy Moore has reportedly made some disparaging remarks from the stage at the show's expense. More importantly, Whelan has been unfairly held responsible for a flood of imitators and purveyors of watered-down "Celtic Muzak."
"I am as uncomfortable with this kind of thing as the next man," he said uneasily. "But I equally believe that folk/Celtic music is a big boy now and well able to stand up for itself. I have difficulty with people who appoint themselves as guardians and protectors of any form of artistic expression. There is something that is smug about it, while at the same time infected with a siege mentality that smothers what they claim to protect, and invents a club within which all the members feel more secure. God, wouldn't it be awful if, as a result of hearing Riverdance, people were urged to investigate the piping of Davy Spillane, the lyrical musicianship of Máirtín O'Connor, or the singing of Áine Uí Cheallaigh?
"When I see people take on the condition of custodians, I am often reminded of the character of the Guardian of the Well in Yeats' 'At the Hawk's Well.' This dry, arid, gnarled figure sits by the well for years, guarding it and waiting for it to spring to life. It lives in hope that it will be enriched when finally the well bubbles up and passes on its mystical secrets. However, when the well does in fact spring to life, the guardian is asleep, and manages to miss entirely the enervating powers that the water brings. When he awakes, the well has dried up, and this blinkered unfortunate resumes his patient watch among the sticks and dry leaves."
I too like the some of the music from Riverdance, and I endeavour to play all the bits I like. Couldn't care less if it's trad or not. Life's to short to be nannigan about music. Let's all just play the stuff!
Whelan can, of course, say what he likes and do what he likes; like the music he's "a big boy" as well. The rest of us will respond as we see fit. If Whelan wants to turn the music into mass-market, over-dramatic, noisy, spectacular pap, then that is his business. I'll vote with my feet, thank you very much.
"No one, therefore, can claim the objective superiority of his choices over the choices of others. Where no objective proof is available, it's every man for himself —— and only for himself."
Criticizing Riverdance is sort of like criticizing Shakespeare for never having written an original play (all his plays were based on previous works, some of which were written in his lifetime). Bill Whelan did what he did better than anyone else could or likely ever will. And if anyone else can, believe me, they will.
And anyone here who bemoans the fact that the music we all love is now damn near hip would do well to think about why they feel that way.
I'm not going to make a judgement on whether the music from Riverdance is good or bad as a piece of music, or how well written it is. That's all subjective anyway. If you like it, you like it. Great, whoopee-doo for you. However, it's just not trad and it is *extremely* impure and I wouldn't like to try any of the tunes out in a pure session for fear of being shot or turned to stone by the stares of pure tradists. Riverdance is flashy, glitzy and commercialized, and therefore it appeals to the masses in the way that trad doesn't. Your average member of the public can relate to Riverdance in the same way as they can relate to McDonald's, because it's something familiar and known to them. The same person walking in on an Irish session would probably think it was just one long tune, and wonder why there was no-one in a poncey silk shirt doing tap dancing to it.
(and before you whinge: "it's not tap dancing and in fact Flatley is very good at what he does" try and think how your average McMember-of-the-public sees it)
I like what once Zina said about Lunasa: they break the rules because they know the rules very well. Isn't it the same with this Riverdance thing? If we want to imitate them, we need to know the musical traditions first. Am I wrong?
To understand River Dance is to trace the phenomenon back to its origins. It started with Andy Irvine when he began introducing Bulgarian horos into Planxty's repertoire. Then in 1992 he collaborated on a spectacular recording project with Davy Spillane and Bill Whelan called “East Wind” where they arranged Bulgarian music for Irish trad instruments and brought musicians from Bulgaria into the studio with their own trad instruments. It was a huge smash, and when Michael Flatly was asked to dance an intermission piece for the Euro-song contest thing, he and his cohorts choreographed something to the music from this recording, or inspired by this recording… I’m not sure if he didn’t just use something or had something composed by the same folks. Anyway, the recording is brilliant – and the rest is history. You might still be able to get this recording; it’s on the Tara label.
My opinion of the whole Riverdance thing is that, OK, it's spectacular, entertaining and musically very good.
As has already been mentioned, it's not traditional and it's unlikely that the music will be played at your typical session in Ireland.
Doesn't mean you can't play or enjoy it, but enjoy it for what it is. It wasn't written with the express purpose of being incorporated into "the tradition", it's just another facet of Irish music.
I've heard it played at sessions as a novelty piece or two, for a bit of fun, and I know how to play the actual riverdance theme on the box. I would never play it at a session though.
I didn't post this thinking that Whelan's music was appropriate for sessions. Having played theater music myself in high school and college, and dances of all kinds for 25 years, I have an idea of how these musical styles are structured and what they're intended to do or make one feel. Whelan would no doubt be the first one to say that his music is not intended as session repertoire, nor is it in any purely traditional.
All of that is beside the point, which is that he states, and I agree, that trad is great but it's strong enough to endure innovation, and that trying to arbitrate what's truly traditional is a fool's game.
And frankly, the dancing, the compositions, and the musical performances are bloody well great. But don't confuse it with ITM. Whelan doesn't.
To clarify the point, what makes consistent all of these new or alternative approaches to Irish (or possibly Scottish) music is the performers' deep understanding of the traditions. In other words, if we try to imitate them in a superficial way without any solid background in the traditions, then it will inevitably end up in a mess.
So, why don't you learn and play as many simple traditional tunes as possible? I love the simple tunes written in a traditional style, because they allow us various interpretations. I personally find it more interesting and exciting to explore this enormously rich and generous musical tradition.
In short, "traditional" doesn't always mean "conservative": we can find more freedom in it.
I treat the music from Riverdance just like any other form of music, be it bluegrass, Irish or whatever. It's different, as different as anything else and I don't consider it in any way traditional, although some of it does have similar rhythms.
I can't help but think there's a smacking of sour grapes along the way here. I think anyone who doesn't like the RD music it quite entitled to say, "Well, I wouldn't play it in a session", or "I wouldn't play it because I don't like it". It may also be the case that they wouldn't play it because they couldn't, not having the ability to play most of the up-tempo stuff anyway, and I think that this is worth pointing out. (and Dow, this is not directed at you just because you mentioned the session thing).
Point of information - the Eurovision "Riverdance" had an "older brother" called "Timedance", which was performed by "Planxty", at an earlier "Eurovision" contest in Dublin. It was later released as a 12"single. I'm not certain, but I think all 3 parts of the piece were composed by Donal Lunny and of course don't forget that Bill Whelan was a member of "Planxty" for a time, and possibly at that time. I think that's where he got the original idea for the "Riverdance" music and concept. This was some years before "East Winds", Jack, which I agree is a fine recording.
Something to think about for those who insist on viewing Riverdance in the context of ITM: Riverdance is an original piece of music. It would not have made much sense for Whelan to compose in style more than 100 years old unless his intent had only been to do a show of traditional Irish dance. If that had been his intent, he could have just compiled existing traditional music. Ooooeee, what an innovative show THAT would have been.
Truth be told, there are sections of the show that sound pretty traditional to me, when he was making a point that made that choice appropriate. He also was trying to show the influences and links of Irish music with flamenco, tap, and even break dancing.
Ailin's right, Whelan was composing an original, innovative piece of music; I don't believe he was trying to make it sound like trad or be playable in sessions. That's the difference between RD and Lunasa. Lunasa may break rules and further boundaries, but they're always connected to the tradition in a way that RD never was.
Lunasa adds chapters to an existing book, Bill Whelan writes his own book.
Riverdance Music from the Well
Riverdance Music from the Well
We've taken a couple of swipes on this site at traditionalists and those who challenge tradition. Riverdance has been a lightning rod for this kind of criticism.
I happen to like Bill Whelan's music very much. It's not pure trad, but it's very good, and I think he manages to expand Celtic and other related styles into broader performance venues w/o making it treacly.
While reading an interview of Bill Whelan from Dirty Linen #63, I came across this passage that I found extremely interesting in light of the "What is ITM and its place in modern societies?" question. I offer this not to spark off any spirited discussions/tribal warfare, but only as a thinkpiece for those who like to consider traditions and their evolution over time:
"One of the more striking features of Riverdance, which is all the more remarkable considering that the show draws so heavily on Irish traditions, is the overt sensuality of much of the dancing. "The Irish have very often separated sex and spirituality as if they were unable to coexist in the one human," said Whelan. "I am strongly of the view that a spirituality without sexuality and sensuality is arid. Sensuality is what much of the work is about."
In time, the show has, of course, attracted its share of criticism. In Ireland, a nation of begrudgers at the best of times, the success of the show has been so total and so quick that there is no shortage of people willing to take a swipe at it. Even old pal Christy Moore has reportedly made some disparaging remarks from the stage at the show's expense. More importantly, Whelan has been unfairly held responsible for a flood of imitators and purveyors of watered-down "Celtic Muzak."
"I am as uncomfortable with this kind of thing as the next man," he said uneasily. "But I equally believe that folk/Celtic music is a big boy now and well able to stand up for itself. I have difficulty with people who appoint themselves as guardians and protectors of any form of artistic expression. There is something that is smug about it, while at the same time infected with a siege mentality that smothers what they claim to protect, and invents a club within which all the members feel more secure. God, wouldn't it be awful if, as a result of hearing Riverdance, people were urged to investigate the piping of Davy Spillane, the lyrical musicianship of Máirtín O'Connor, or the singing of Áine Uí Cheallaigh?
"When I see people take on the condition of custodians, I am often reminded of the character of the Guardian of the Well in Yeats' 'At the Hawk's Well.' This dry, arid, gnarled figure sits by the well for years, guarding it and waiting for it to spring to life. It lives in hope that it will be enriched when finally the well bubbles up and passes on its mystical secrets. However, when the well does in fact spring to life, the guardian is asleep, and manages to miss entirely the enervating powers that the water brings. When he awakes, the well has dried up, and this blinkered unfortunate resumes his patient watch among the sticks and dry leaves."
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
I too like the some of the music from Riverdance, and I endeavour to play all the bits I like. Couldn't care less if it's trad or not. Life's to short to be nannigan about music. Let's all just play the stuff!
Jim
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
....ie that was supposed to mean "Let's all just play the stuff we like".
Jim
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
Whelan can, of course, say what he likes and do what he likes; like the music he's "a big boy" as well. The rest of us will respond as we see fit. If Whelan wants to turn the music into mass-market, over-dramatic, noisy, spectacular pap, then that is his business. I'll vote with my feet, thank you very much.
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
"No one, therefore, can claim the objective superiority of his choices over the choices of others. Where no objective proof is available, it's every man for himself —— and only for himself."
Ayn Rand —— the romantic manifesto
Nonetheless, I agree with Mr. Whelan.
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by day-glo pirate
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
Criticizing Riverdance is sort of like criticizing Shakespeare for never having written an original play (all his plays were based on previous works, some of which were written in his lifetime). Bill Whelan did what he did better than anyone else could or likely ever will. And if anyone else can, believe me, they will.
And anyone here who bemoans the fact that the music we all love is now damn near hip would do well to think about why they feel that way.
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Ailin
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
I'm not going to make a judgement on whether the music from Riverdance is good or bad as a piece of music, or how well written it is. That's all subjective anyway. If you like it, you like it. Great, whoopee-doo for you. However, it's just not trad and it is *extremely* impure and I wouldn't like to try any of the tunes out in a pure session for fear of being shot or turned to stone by the stares of pure tradists. Riverdance is flashy, glitzy and commercialized, and therefore it appeals to the masses in the way that trad doesn't. Your average member of the public can relate to Riverdance in the same way as they can relate to McDonald's, because it's something familiar and known to them. The same person walking in on an Irish session would probably think it was just one long tune, and wonder why there was no-one in a poncey silk shirt doing tap dancing to it.
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
(and before you whinge: "it's not tap dancing and in fact Flatley is very good at what he does" try and think how your average McMember-of-the-public sees it)
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
I like what once Zina said about Lunasa: they break the rules because they know the rules very well. Isn't it the same with this Riverdance thing? If we want to imitate them, we need to know the musical traditions first. Am I wrong?
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by slainte
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
Good point.
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
To understand River Dance is to trace the phenomenon back to its origins. It started with Andy Irvine when he began introducing Bulgarian horos into Planxty's repertoire. Then in 1992 he collaborated on a spectacular recording project with Davy Spillane and Bill Whelan called “East Wind” where they arranged Bulgarian music for Irish trad instruments and brought musicians from Bulgaria into the studio with their own trad instruments. It was a huge smash, and when Michael Flatly was asked to dance an intermission piece for the Euro-song contest thing, he and his cohorts choreographed something to the music from this recording, or inspired by this recording… I’m not sure if he didn’t just use something or had something composed by the same folks. Anyway, the recording is brilliant – and the rest is history. You might still be able to get this recording; it’s on the Tara label.
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
Pity he didn't Flatly refuse (unless he was actually dancing in a river).
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
I agree Jack, East Wind is gorgeous.
My opinion of the whole Riverdance thing is that, OK, it's spectacular, entertaining and musically very good.
As has already been mentioned, it's not traditional and it's unlikely that the music will be played at your typical session in Ireland.
Doesn't mean you can't play or enjoy it, but enjoy it for what it is. It wasn't written with the express purpose of being incorporated into "the tradition", it's just another facet of Irish music.
I've heard it played at sessions as a novelty piece or two, for a bit of fun, and I know how to play the actual riverdance theme on the box. I would never play it at a session though.
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
I didn't post this thinking that Whelan's music was appropriate for sessions. Having played theater music myself in high school and college, and dances of all kinds for 25 years, I have an idea of how these musical styles are structured and what they're intended to do or make one feel. Whelan would no doubt be the first one to say that his music is not intended as session repertoire, nor is it in any purely traditional.
All of that is beside the point, which is that he states, and I agree, that trad is great but it's strong enough to endure innovation, and that trying to arbitrate what's truly traditional is a fool's game.
And frankly, the dancing, the compositions, and the musical performances are bloody well great. But don't confuse it with ITM. Whelan doesn't.
# Posted on June 23rd 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
To clarify the point, what makes consistent all of these new or alternative approaches to Irish (or possibly Scottish) music is the performers' deep understanding of the traditions. In other words, if we try to imitate them in a superficial way without any solid background in the traditions, then it will inevitably end up in a mess.
So, why don't you learn and play as many simple traditional tunes as possible? I love the simple tunes written in a traditional style, because they allow us various interpretations. I personally find it more interesting and exciting to explore this enormously rich and generous musical tradition.
In short, "traditional" doesn't always mean "conservative": we can find more freedom in it.
# Posted on June 23rd 2004 by slainte
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
I treat the music from Riverdance just like any other form of music, be it bluegrass, Irish or whatever. It's different, as different as anything else and I don't consider it in any way traditional, although some of it does have similar rhythms.
I can't help but think there's a smacking of sour grapes along the way here. I think anyone who doesn't like the RD music it quite entitled to say, "Well, I wouldn't play it in a session", or "I wouldn't play it because I don't like it". It may also be the case that they wouldn't play it because they couldn't, not having the ability to play most of the up-tempo stuff anyway, and I think that this is worth pointing out. (and Dow, this is not directed at you just because you mentioned the session thing).
Jim
# Posted on June 23rd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
Point of information - the Eurovision "Riverdance" had an "older brother" called "Timedance", which was performed by "Planxty", at an earlier "Eurovision" contest in Dublin. It was later released as a 12"single. I'm not certain, but I think all 3 parts of the piece were composed by Donal Lunny and of course don't forget that Bill Whelan was a member of "Planxty" for a time, and possibly at that time. I think that's where he got the original idea for the "Riverdance" music and concept. This was some years before "East Winds", Jack, which I agree is a fine recording.
# Posted on June 23rd 2004 by Kenny
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
Something to think about for those who insist on viewing Riverdance in the context of ITM: Riverdance is an original piece of music. It would not have made much sense for Whelan to compose in style more than 100 years old unless his intent had only been to do a show of traditional Irish dance. If that had been his intent, he could have just compiled existing traditional music. Ooooeee, what an innovative show THAT would have been.
Truth be told, there are sections of the show that sound pretty traditional to me, when he was making a point that made that choice appropriate. He also was trying to show the influences and links of Irish music with flamenco, tap, and even break dancing.
# Posted on June 23rd 2004 by Ailin
Re: Riverdance Music from the Well
Ailin's right, Whelan was composing an original, innovative piece of music; I don't believe he was trying to make it sound like trad or be playable in sessions. That's the difference between RD and Lunasa. Lunasa may break rules and further boundaries, but they're always connected to the tradition in a way that RD never was.
Lunasa adds chapters to an existing book, Bill Whelan writes his own book.
# Posted on June 23rd 2004 by jdave