In most tune collections 'slides' and 'single jigs' are put together under a common headline as they are notated the same way as 6/8 or 12/8. And it seems like most tunes with the slide/single jig pattern today are referred to as 'slides' only.
But originally slides and single jigs come from different traditions. They've been played to different dances and I believe that they have been played with different rythmical emphasis as well.
From what I've learned, the slide is traditionally played very fast and in a way that resembles of an "extra dotted" hornpipe, i e it could almost have been written in 4/4 time with double dotted quavers and lots of triplets.
While I guess that the single jig is/was more "jiggish"...
My first question is if people here can give more information of the differences between the tune-types. And my second question is if anyone knows of tunes that originally have been 'single jigs'.
I think "tune types" are only really relevent when you're playing for dancers. It goes back to the discusseion we had about "Are we playing dance music?".
Most tunes can be molded into any number of tune types, making their original "type" only relevent to historians. This is particullary true of jigs and slides (though it's important to note that just because jigs and slides can be interchangable, it doesn't mean they're the same thing)
My understanding of slides is that they are played VERY fast, are in 12/8 time, and contain a lot of "crotchet quaver" groupings, whereas jigs (single or double) have mostly "quaver quaver quaver" groupings. These groupings make slides sound a lot "stiffer" (can't think of any other way to put it) than jigs, which have more of a swing to them. A bit like an elephant, really, hard to describe but you instantly recognise one when you see (hear) one.
Jane, your definition of the slide sounds a lot like my impression. (I actually meant "quarter note" when I wrote quaver. A crotchet is the same as a quarter note? I have problems with the terminology, as English isn't my first language.)
But I think that the single jig also mainly has groups of 'crotcher - quavers', and that is why they are grouped together.
And Michael, of course you're right that this is mainly of historical interest, but the historical background of the music interests me. It can give you an extra dimension to the tunes (probably mainly true for people who - like me - lives far away from the tradition). When it comes to actual playing, one had better be careful not to be restricted by arguments like "this is actually a xxx and not a xxx"
Lars
My impression is that slides are written for set-dancing figures, when typically a couple slides into the centre of the set and out again. They are certainly not interchangeable with jigs in this context, so you're spot on there Michael.
In my experience jig and reel steps are that bit more complex than those for polkas and slides; it's therefore easier to dance quickly to polkas and slides.
Lars, the slide is as you described. The single jig is played at jig speed but has lots of crotchet-quaver groupings - think "Humpty Dumpty" and "Pop Goes The Weasel". It's rare to hear them played in sessions. Most jigs in sessions are double jigs which consist mostly of quaver-quaver-quaver groupings. I would notate slides in 12/8 and both double and single jigs in 6/8.
We play slides at our sesh. We play them in a way that makes them sound kind of like slow dotted hornpipes. If our guitar player chooses to back them, he doesn't use with a jig rhythm, but rather in a way like this: ka-chung ka-chung ka-chung ka-chung I like playing slides -- they're very bouncy -- probably hard to do on English-system mousetraps though. *snicker snicker*
thank you all for replies and input. It confirms and completes my understanding of the slides. Now if I only could get some more input about the non-slides...
My guess is that tunes like the old hag in the kiln and other hag-tunes are more from the single jig tradition - "modal" character, fit to play slower and easily fit in sets with double jigs. Any thoughts or opinions?
Well I think somebody might either be playing their hornpipes too fast of their slides too slow. I also think that the long-short ratio in a hornpipe should be more pronounced than it is in a slide. The dotted quaver/semiquaver (dotted eighth/sixteenth) ratio in a hornpipe is three to one; the crotchet/quaver (quarter/eighth) in 6/8 tunes is two to one. I know we shouldn't take written music too literally, but I feel in this case it's about right.
As for single jigs, yes Humpty Dumpty (or Off She Goes) is a good example - though I've recently wondered if this is possibly a slide, or exists in a slide version. I find it's actually hard to play mosts slides as single jigs because there's not enough emphasis on the note that would be the first note of the 2nd, 4th etc bars. And this becomes really noticeable when you slow them down to jig tempo. Equally, it's hard to turn a jig into a slide simply by playing it faster.
A step dancer can show you the difference between a single and double jig. To my mind, it's all about rhythmic construction, nothing to do with modality, but it's an interesting thought. O'Neill's groups jigs into single and double. Looking at these may help.
Just found this thread off a link from Gian Marco. By the way:
"I also think that the long-short ratio in a hornpipe should be more pronounced than it is in a slide. The dotted quaver/semiquaver (dotted eighth/sixteenth) ratio in a hornpipe is three to one; the crotchet/quaver (quarter/eighth) in 6/8 tunes is two to one. I know we shouldn't take written music too literally, but I feel in this case it's about right."--kris
slides and single jigs
slides and single jigs
In most tune collections 'slides' and 'single jigs' are put together under a common headline as they are notated the same way as 6/8 or 12/8. And it seems like most tunes with the slide/single jig pattern today are referred to as 'slides' only.
But originally slides and single jigs come from different traditions. They've been played to different dances and I believe that they have been played with different rythmical emphasis as well.
From what I've learned, the slide is traditionally played very fast and in a way that resembles of an "extra dotted" hornpipe, i e it could almost have been written in 4/4 time with double dotted quavers and lots of triplets.
While I guess that the single jig is/was more "jiggish"...
My first question is if people here can give more information of the differences between the tune-types. And my second question is if anyone knows of tunes that originally have been 'single jigs'.
Lars
# Posted on June 20th 2004 by lars
Re: slides and single jigs
I think "tune types" are only really relevent when you're playing for dancers. It goes back to the discusseion we had about "Are we playing dance music?".
Most tunes can be molded into any number of tune types, making their original "type" only relevent to historians. This is particullary true of jigs and slides (though it's important to note that just because jigs and slides can be interchangable, it doesn't mean they're the same thing)
# Posted on June 20th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: slides and single jigs
My understanding of slides is that they are played VERY fast, are in 12/8 time, and contain a lot of "crotchet quaver" groupings, whereas jigs (single or double) have mostly "quaver quaver quaver" groupings. These groupings make slides sound a lot "stiffer" (can't think of any other way to put it) than jigs, which have more of a swing to them. A bit like an elephant, really, hard to describe but you instantly recognise one when you see (hear) one.
Jane R
# Posted on June 20th 2004 by LW
Re: slides and single jigs
Jane, your definition of the slide sounds a lot like my impression. (I actually meant "quarter note" when I wrote quaver. A crotchet is the same as a quarter note? I have problems with the terminology, as English isn't my first language.)
But I think that the single jig also mainly has groups of 'crotcher - quavers', and that is why they are grouped together.
And Michael, of course you're right that this is mainly of historical interest, but the historical background of the music interests me. It can give you an extra dimension to the tunes (probably mainly true for people who - like me - lives far away from the tradition). When it comes to actual playing, one had better be careful not to be restricted by arguments like "this is actually a xxx and not a xxx"
Lars
# Posted on June 21st 2004 by lars
Re: slides and single jigs
My impression is that slides are written for set-dancing figures, when typically a couple slides into the centre of the set and out again. They are certainly not interchangeable with jigs in this context, so you're spot on there Michael.
In my experience jig and reel steps are that bit more complex than those for polkas and slides; it's therefore easier to dance quickly to polkas and slides.
# Posted on June 21st 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: slides and single jigs
Lars, the slide is as you described. The single jig is played at jig speed but has lots of crotchet-quaver groupings - think "Humpty Dumpty" and "Pop Goes The Weasel". It's rare to hear them played in sessions. Most jigs in sessions are double jigs which consist mostly of quaver-quaver-quaver groupings. I would notate slides in 12/8 and both double and single jigs in 6/8.
# Posted on June 21st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: slides and single jigs
We play slides at our sesh. We play them in a way that makes them sound kind of like slow dotted hornpipes. If our guitar player chooses to back them, he doesn't use with a jig rhythm, but rather in a way like this: ka-chung ka-chung ka-chung ka-chung I like playing slides -- they're very bouncy -- probably hard to do on English-system mousetraps though. *snicker snicker*
# Posted on June 21st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: slides and single jigs
Slides are easier polkyfied than jigs....
# Posted on June 21st 2004 by snorre
Re: slides and single jigs
thank you all for replies and input. It confirms and completes my understanding of the slides. Now if I only could get some more input about the non-slides...
My guess is that tunes like the old hag in the kiln and other hag-tunes are more from the single jig tradition - "modal" character, fit to play slower and easily fit in sets with double jigs. Any thoughts or opinions?
# Posted on June 22nd 2004 by lars
Re: slides and single jigs
Well I think somebody might either be playing their hornpipes too fast of their slides too slow. I also think that the long-short ratio in a hornpipe should be more pronounced than it is in a slide. The dotted quaver/semiquaver (dotted eighth/sixteenth) ratio in a hornpipe is three to one; the crotchet/quaver (quarter/eighth) in 6/8 tunes is two to one. I know we shouldn't take written music too literally, but I feel in this case it's about right.
As for single jigs, yes Humpty Dumpty (or Off She Goes) is a good example - though I've recently wondered if this is possibly a slide, or exists in a slide version. I find it's actually hard to play mosts slides as single jigs because there's not enough emphasis on the note that would be the first note of the 2nd, 4th etc bars. And this becomes really noticeable when you slow them down to jig tempo. Equally, it's hard to turn a jig into a slide simply by playing it faster.
A step dancer can show you the difference between a single and double jig. To my mind, it's all about rhythmic construction, nothing to do with modality, but it's an interesting thought. O'Neill's groups jigs into single and double. Looking at these may help.
# Posted on June 26th 2004 by kris
Re: slides and single jigs
Just found this thread off a link from Gian Marco. By the way:
"I also think that the long-short ratio in a hornpipe should be more pronounced than it is in a slide. The dotted quaver/semiquaver (dotted eighth/sixteenth) ratio in a hornpipe is three to one; the crotchet/quaver (quarter/eighth) in 6/8 tunes is two to one. I know we shouldn't take written music too literally, but I feel in this case it's about right."--kris
No it's not.
# Posted on April 5th 2005 by Dr. Dow