I recently entered in a competition and was told that I need to put more dirt and grit in my playing. I understand that these words are similar to 'drive' as in a recent discussion.
What are dirt and grit and how do they show in the music? How do you develop them in your playing? What are your thoughts pertaining to those descriptive words as they apply to music?
i would n't associate dirt&grit with drive although they often go together.
it's a toughie because although i know exactly what it's getting at i can't really desribe it in words now i come to think of it so excuse me for this singularly useless post.doh
ps-maybe not too clean and getting under the skin of the tune.
They are both great fiddlers. Zina said I played a la Kevin Burke (thanks Zina) but of late I have been listening to a lot of John Carty and it has affected my sound a bit.
In Jazz Grappelli is clean and could charm the birds off the trees; Joe Venuti and Stuff Smith are gritty
Andy Williams/Tom Waites ...sorry, I've gone too far.
I think there is a misconception about this "grit and dirt" thing. OK so it will make you sound more traditional, but only because you're average trad player's technique is not very good. But listen to Liz Carrol and you will only hear beautifully and cleanly articulated phrases. No need for grit or dirt there.
But maybe what your teacher is trying to get you to do is to free up a little and not care about your technique so much, something we all should do. There is a tendancy for fiddle players (especially those who learned "violin" first) to get annoyed with themselves when they fluff a note or a roll or touch another string by mistake. There are more important things in diddley to deal with, like lift and drive.
Brian Conway's playing is very clean (and very beautiful) to me as well.
My playing must have loads of dirt and grit, because my teacher often tells me to slow down, pretend I'm playing classical, and play each note as if it were a gem.
I think once I can do that (and that's not so easy!!), any grit that returns will just be icing on the cake.
Andee, Maybe dirt and grit is not a problem with you at all. Maybe you just sound a little rushed (usually a symptom of uneaven phrasing)? Playing a little slower won't necessarily clean up your technique, but you will be able to concentrate on eavening out your phrasing better
You are absolutely right about that Michael, but I suspect my tone could be better as well. My teacher has also commented that I have a really nice fiddle, and It doesn't sound like I'm getting my money's worth out of it (i.e. tone-wise).
I wonder if in "dirt and grit" there is an element of playing right up to the edge? And if you occasionally go over the edge, so what? that's where the excitement lies.
A very recent example from my own experience: last Saturday Bristol Chamber Orchestra played Mendelssohn's D minor violin concerto (a rare early work - not the well-known E minor), and the soloist was a 14-year virtuoso from Bristol. The performance was technically perfect and completely assured and confident (and at a speed which taxed many of the orchestra!). Afterwards it was revealed that this was the first time the lad had ever played with an orchestra in public. Last night (Wednesday) we repeated the programme at a different venue, and this time it was obvious that the boy was taking risks and pushing his playing right up to the limit and beyond. The result was an even more exciting and vibrant performance.
This, to me, shows the difference between a technically "clean" performance and "dirt and grit". Too hygenic and antiseptic a performance will have as little life in it as a midi-generated tune, whereas a bit of dirt and grit generates the real life and gives that essential tingle factor.
It's not the dirt and grit persay, it's the not caring about it too much. I think you'd be pretty daft to deliberatly try to put a bit of dirt and grit into your playing, like it's just another authentic bit of technique to add to your list, along with holding your bow "wrong" and playing your top B a little flat
I agree with Mr. Gill.. (Oh, my!!??) I wouldn't use the words 'dirt and grit'. I would rather use the word 'guts'. As in play with a little bit of guts. Liz Carroll is technically proficient but it doesn't keep her from playing with guts. My current favorite fiddle CD is Mick Conneely's solo CD. Wild and gutsy stuff.
I dunno about dirt, but I've always associated the term grit with the way Tommy Peoples plays -- that bit of scratchy sound he gets. I didn't used to like it before I was a fiddler, but I do now and am finding it creeps into my playing too. It adds a bit to some of the tunes!
On the other hand, I agree definitely that you should let your playing evolve on its own and not try to force anything into it because you're told to. Strive for the sound you want and you'll probably find that with time you get no more sh*te about needing dirt and grit!
Sara
"Dirt and grit" may not be the most appropriate term, because it contains a possible implication as to the quality of tone, which just isn't so.
Trevor
Are you all talking about fiddle playing? To overgeneralise a little bit, I always feel Scottish fiddle styles are clean while Cape Breton fiddle styles are dirty. (Of course, there're lots of exceptions. Some fiddlers can play in different styles.) I love both, and yes, "dirty" doesn't always mean good. I find some classically trained fiddlers deliberately try to make their playing "dirty." Yes, it's "dirty" enough but sounds very stiff and too much stylised. I think they should more relax.
As for the flute players, Kevin Crawford is clean while Hammy Hamilton is dirty.
I like both Trevor's and Tusong's comments:
taking risks and playing with guts.
I know a couple of technically pretty good ITM musicians, but there's usually something lacking in their playing (at least in my opinion) and I couldn't really put my finger on it. But I think that's exactly it: they don't take risks and don't play with guts, or in other words, they don't really put something into it that wasn't there before. Therefore, it sounds too "clean", maybe one can also say, too predictable. I think they're trying to do everything "just right", play every note at the correct pitch, execute all ornaments precisely and evenly etc.
If you take great players such as Tommy Peoples, they always toss in some unexpected ornamentation, melody variation or rhythmic twist, and that makes the music sound so much more interesting and alive.
Slainte, I couldn't get comment13931 to download. If other people are having this problem this is what I think Harry Bradley was saying (I managed to access his comment via another route):
[start of Harry Bradley's comment]
Talking of Ennis or Clancy, I hear many young pipers playing incredibly intricate, clean playing that is undoubtably more technically accomplished than the old pipers, it's great music in itself. Do I prefer it to the old piping?......No. Because it has but a trace of the personality, tone, maturity, humour , ingenuity and generosity of the older players. This, of course, can not be learned in a day or a week or a year ,but is part of a life long journey in self expression and is on-going and highly unique and personalised, it's which every musician undertakes to some degree, but few take to the extent as the ones I've mentioned. That's what I mean when I talk about Irish music, just to clear up the point
[comment ends]
Esfiddle. Don't bother yourself about the meaning of "dirt" and "grit". It's not plain English, it's just more tradjargon with a vague meaning that isn't agreed upon by musicians. Terms like this are used by reviewers and competition judges to make everyone think that they're God and know everything about the music. If you want to get "dirty", stop going to competitions. Go to sessions and just enjoy playing the tunes.
Dow, If we all only used words in the dictionary, we'd all be stuck back with Dr Johnson. (Just like if we were only alowed to play tunes that are in O'Neils)
In piping circles, would it be fair to write that Liam O' Flynn is the "classical, perfect" player, always guaranteed to give a beautiful performance, whereas Paddy Keenan might want to go that bit further, and thereby take everyone with him to another galaxy?
Bx
Planet Keenan is indeed o splended celestial body. But don't knock Planet O'Flynn. The two atmospheres may indeed be quite different, but both are sweet and unpoluted. Some people are content to be marooned on either, but, personally, I like to travel between them. If I sit on one for any length of time, I long for the other.
Michael you make me laugh cuz usually you're the one telling everyone to shut up and play instead of over-analysing. Now you're the one advocating the ditching of plain English in favour of meaningless poncy tradjargon (he said, ironically coining a poncy new word "tradjargon")
When I was in Sligo a couple of years ago, somebody told me my whistle playing sounds like Micho Russell's. Actually I was just unconsciously imitating bouncy pipe and fiddle styles in Scotland. But now I found lots of grits in my flute here in Yorkshire!
Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Dirt and Grit in Playing?
I recently entered in a competition and was told that I need to put more dirt and grit in my playing. I understand that these words are similar to 'drive' as in a recent discussion.
What are dirt and grit and how do they show in the music? How do you develop them in your playing? What are your thoughts pertaining to those descriptive words as they apply to music?
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by esfiddle
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
i would n't associate dirt&grit with drive although they often go together.
it's a toughie because although i know exactly what it's getting at i can't really desribe it in words now i come to think of it so excuse me for this singularly useless post.doh
ps-maybe not too clean and getting under the skin of the tune.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Götz von Berlichingen, III. Akt, Szene 17
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
HMMMmmmm. Grit and dirt.
Perhaps playing more dirty as in less cleanly, polished and slickly.
Perhaps playing more gritty as in digging into some note and playing with your heart, with emotion and taking musical chances.
One can hear the differnce clearly when listening to jazz, pehaps it's more subtle with ITM.
Can anyone think of someone who plays cleanly versus dirty or with grit versus not-so-mich grit (for lack of a better word at the moment)
P
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
It sounds more like what I find in my flute after a week at Lark Camp.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Thank you for the responses so far, they are so helpful. I know it is difficult to describe these sorts of things in words.
To add another word, what about 'fire'? Apply the original questions about dirt and grit to 'fire'.
Erin
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by esfiddle
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Adding dirt and grit to fire eh... I think that's how God created man.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
I agree with Jim.
Kevin Burke is "clean"
John Carty is "gritty"
They are both great fiddlers. Zina said I played a la Kevin Burke (thanks Zina) but of late I have been listening to a lot of John Carty and it has affected my sound a bit.
In Jazz Grappelli is clean and could charm the birds off the trees; Joe Venuti and Stuff Smith are gritty
Andy Williams/Tom Waites ...sorry, I've gone too far.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
I think there is a misconception about this "grit and dirt" thing. OK so it will make you sound more traditional, but only because you're average trad player's technique is not very good. But listen to Liz Carrol and you will only hear beautifully and cleanly articulated phrases. No need for grit or dirt there.
But maybe what your teacher is trying to get you to do is to free up a little and not care about your technique so much, something we all should do. There is a tendancy for fiddle players (especially those who learned "violin" first) to get annoyed with themselves when they fluff a note or a roll or touch another string by mistake. There are more important things in diddley to deal with, like lift and drive.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by ...
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Brian Conway's playing is very clean (and very beautiful) to me as well.
My playing must have loads of dirt and grit, because my teacher often tells me to slow down, pretend I'm playing classical, and play each note as if it were a gem.
I think once I can do that (and that's not so easy!!), any grit that returns will just be icing on the cake.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Andee
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Andee, Maybe dirt and grit is not a problem with you at all. Maybe you just sound a little rushed (usually a symptom of uneaven phrasing)? Playing a little slower won't necessarily clean up your technique, but you will be able to concentrate on eavening out your phrasing better
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by ...
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
You are absolutely right about that Michael, but I suspect my tone could be better as well. My teacher has also commented that I have a really nice fiddle, and It doesn't sound like I'm getting my money's worth out of it (i.e. tone-wise).
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Andee
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
I wonder if in "dirt and grit" there is an element of playing right up to the edge? And if you occasionally go over the edge, so what? that's where the excitement lies.
A very recent example from my own experience: last Saturday Bristol Chamber Orchestra played Mendelssohn's D minor violin concerto (a rare early work - not the well-known E minor), and the soloist was a 14-year virtuoso from Bristol. The performance was technically perfect and completely assured and confident (and at a speed which taxed many of the orchestra!). Afterwards it was revealed that this was the first time the lad had ever played with an orchestra in public. Last night (Wednesday) we repeated the programme at a different venue, and this time it was obvious that the boy was taking risks and pushing his playing right up to the limit and beyond. The result was an even more exciting and vibrant performance.
This, to me, shows the difference between a technically "clean" performance and "dirt and grit". Too hygenic and antiseptic a performance will have as little life in it as a midi-generated tune, whereas a bit of dirt and grit generates the real life and gives that essential tingle factor.
Trevor
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
It's not the dirt and grit persay, it's the not caring about it too much. I think you'd be pretty daft to deliberatly try to put a bit of dirt and grit into your playing, like it's just another authentic bit of technique to add to your list, along with holding your bow "wrong" and playing your top B a little flat
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by ...
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
I agree with Mr. Gill.. (Oh, my!!??) I wouldn't use the words 'dirt and grit'. I would rather use the word 'guts'. As in play with a little bit of guts. Liz Carroll is technically proficient but it doesn't keep her from playing with guts. My current favorite fiddle CD is Mick Conneely's solo CD. Wild and gutsy stuff.
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by Tusong200
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
I dunno about dirt, but I've always associated the term grit with the way Tommy Peoples plays -- that bit of scratchy sound he gets. I didn't used to like it before I was a fiddler, but I do now and am finding it creeps into my playing too. It adds a bit to some of the tunes!
On the other hand, I agree definitely that you should let your playing evolve on its own and not try to force anything into it because you're told to. Strive for the sound you want and you'll probably find that with time you get no more sh*te about needing dirt and grit!
Sara
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by sara g
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
"Dirt and grit" may not be the most appropriate term, because it contains a possible implication as to the quality of tone, which just isn't so.
Trevor
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Are you all talking about fiddle playing? To overgeneralise a little bit, I always feel Scottish fiddle styles are clean while Cape Breton fiddle styles are dirty. (Of course, there're lots of exceptions. Some fiddlers can play in different styles.) I love both, and yes, "dirty" doesn't always mean good. I find some classically trained fiddlers deliberately try to make their playing "dirty." Yes, it's "dirty" enough but sounds very stiff and too much stylised. I think they should more relax.
As for the flute players, Kevin Crawford is clean while Hammy Hamilton is dirty.
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by slainte
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
I like both Trevor's and Tusong's comments:
taking risks and playing with guts.
I know a couple of technically pretty good ITM musicians, but there's usually something lacking in their playing (at least in my opinion) and I couldn't really put my finger on it. But I think that's exactly it: they don't take risks and don't play with guts, or in other words, they don't really put something into it that wasn't there before. Therefore, it sounds too "clean", maybe one can also say, too predictable. I think they're trying to do everything "just right", play every note at the correct pitch, execute all ornaments precisely and evenly etc.
If you take great players such as Tommy Peoples, they always toss in some unexpected ornamentation, melody variation or rhythmic twist, and that makes the music sound so much more interesting and alive.
Just my 2 cents.
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by heike
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Heike's comment reminds me of what Harry Bradley said about very talented young pipers today. Have a look, it's a nice discussion: http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/911/comments#comment13931
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by slainte
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Slainte, I couldn't get comment13931 to download. If other people are having this problem this is what I think Harry Bradley was saying (I managed to access his comment via another route):
[start of Harry Bradley's comment]
Talking of Ennis or Clancy, I hear many young pipers playing incredibly intricate, clean playing that is undoubtably more technically accomplished than the old pipers, it's great music in itself. Do I prefer it to the old piping?......No. Because it has but a trace of the personality, tone, maturity, humour , ingenuity and generosity of the older players. This, of course, can not be learned in a day or a week or a year ,but is part of a life long journey in self expression and is on-going and highly unique and personalised, it's which every musician undertakes to some degree, but few take to the extent as the ones I've mentioned. That's what I mean when I talk about Irish music, just to clear up the point
[comment ends]
Trevor
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Thanks Trevor, that's the one. He uses the word "clean" and I think that's not an accident.
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by slainte
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Esfiddle. Don't bother yourself about the meaning of "dirt" and "grit". It's not plain English, it's just more tradjargon with a vague meaning that isn't agreed upon by musicians. Terms like this are used by reviewers and competition judges to make everyone think that they're God and know everything about the music. If you want to get "dirty", stop going to competitions. Go to sessions and just enjoy playing the tunes.
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Dow, If we all only used words in the dictionary, we'd all be stuck back with Dr Johnson. (Just like if we were only alowed to play tunes that are in O'Neils)
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by ...
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
In piping circles, would it be fair to write that Liam O' Flynn is the "classical, perfect" player, always guaranteed to give a beautiful performance, whereas Paddy Keenan might want to go that bit further, and thereby take everyone with him to another galaxy?
Bx
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by briantheflute
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Planet Keenan is indeed o splended celestial body. But don't knock Planet O'Flynn. The two atmospheres may indeed be quite different, but both are sweet and unpoluted. Some people are content to be marooned on either, but, personally, I like to travel between them. If I sit on one for any length of time, I long for the other.
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by ...
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
I love it when you all talk dirty and gritty
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Michael you make me laugh cuz usually you're the one telling everyone to shut up and play instead of over-analysing. Now you're the one advocating the ditching of plain English in favour of meaningless poncy tradjargon (he said, ironically coining a poncy new word "tradjargon")
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
What happened to Michael Gill the Cynic?!
# Posted on June 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Hey Dow -- shut up and play.
# Posted on June 18th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
"In 1840, we took a little trip........."
# Posted on June 18th 2004 by Kenny
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Grit is playing with a Yorkshire accent.
# Posted on June 18th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
When I was in Sligo a couple of years ago, somebody told me my whistle playing sounds like Micho Russell's. Actually I was just unconsciously imitating bouncy pipe and fiddle styles in Scotland. But now I found lots of grits in my flute here in Yorkshire!
# Posted on June 18th 2004 by slainte
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Oh, yes, aren't our styles of playing similar to regional accents? How boring to play with *standard* north east American or the Queen's accents!
# Posted on June 18th 2004 by slainte
Re: Dirt and Grit in Playing?
Always wear a wide brimmed hat whilst playing in quarries - that'll keep the grit out of your flute.
# Posted on June 20th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig