I don't mean to slag on the melody-gods of ITM, but I'd like to raise a point for discussion. Why is it that people have a field-day complaining about beginning guitarists, but are seemingly incapable of turning the same critical eye on beginners in their own instrumental "family"? I don't really mean to stick a finger in the eye of those who would besmirch my fellow guitarists, but criticism and condemnation seems to come pretty damn quick to backers.
Now I realize that most of these comments show up in discussions pertaining to backup instruments and backing styles, and they are wholly appropriate. Still, I can't help but get the impression that many people jumping on the case of beginning guitarists are apparently deaf to the beginner's squeaking fiddle in their other ear, the guy across the table bellowing away on his brand-new box, and, god forbid, the novice banjo burying everything in off-note plunks and a-rhythmic triplets.
I'll mock bad guitarists all day long with anyone. (Even if I can't yet reproduce the sounds of my musical heros, I'm still knowledgeable enough about my instrument to know when someone is being clever and when they’re barely hanging on and should go home and practice more. In fact, because of this, I'm even quicker to condemn them than I would be for other instrumentalists, who can easily fool me into thinking they’re better than they really are.)
So how about a little evenhandedness?
Legal Declarations:
1. If you happen to recognize my name as someone with whom I've shared a table with at some session or another... I'm not talking about you! (I've listened to far more sessions than I’ve played in.)
2. Though I've been diligently working on improvement for a few years, I still consider myself a beginner in many, many ways (no doubt others would be just as quick with that assessment), and am in no way positioning myself as the end-all style-arbitrator. I'm just making an observation and posing a thought for disucussion.
3. Beginners (like me) have every right to play (as long as the session-masters accept and encourage them at that particular session). There's simply no other way to grow, gain crucial experience, and learn to apply what you've been working on in your living room.
4. I'm of the position that the guitar is firmly entrenched in and is a part of the ITM tradition, and it's presence is justified. The presence of a guitar doesn't make or break the "traditional" sound any more than would the presence or absence of a mandolin in Bluegrass or a trumpet in jazz in any individual band or gathering.
5. I love the banjo.
Interesting point. I think the reason backers get the tongue lashing more often than melody players is that they are far more likely to try to play along with every single tune all night long whether they know it or not, thereby polluting the entire evening with their lack of skill instead of just the odd tune here and there.
Melody players (with a few exceptions, including myself) generally don't try to fake it if they don't know a tune, making the five or ten minutes of squeaky, awful butchery to which they subject the better players in an evening more tolerable.
If you pay close attention, you'll find the melody players who noodle during tunes they don't know get just as hard a time as the backers who noodle during tunes they don't know. It seems pretty consistent to me.
In fact, most of us would probably *rather* hear a novice guitar player butchering tunes all night long than, say, a novice piper or whistle player - if the choice had to be made...
This perhaps doesn't answer the question completely, but I think it is true to say that, in some respects, melody players have an easier time of it. Playing in a session as one of a number of melody players, one can easily get away with a few fluffed notes here and there - perhaps even losing the rhythm for a few beats. The accompanist, on the other hand, has a responsibility placed upon him or her to provide a consistent and seamless backing and, in playing the odd wrong chord, could be ruining the whole session. For an accompanist, playing out of time is a very serious crime indeed.
I'm hyper-conscious about polluting a session with my meager abilities. I've managed to woodshed the zouk and guitar to the point where I can bring them out in public, play them softly, and not make too much of an ass of myself. I love the banjo, but an spectacularly aweful at it... so it stays in the woodshed for the time being!
(My disclaimer comment above was directed at the long-suffering banjo players who probably catch more hell than any other melody players. I didn't want my "off-note plunks and a-rhythmic triplets" comment to sting them any more. The North American epicenter of a-rhythmic banjo triplets is my livingroom...)
You are right to leave the banjo at home. A badly played banjo is tougher to ignore than a badly played guitar.
David, I think you're a little harsh to say the odd wrong chord can pollute the whole session. The best guitar players I know still get a chord wrong once in a while but they add so much to the session I wouldn't say "Oh, that's it. My evening is ruined because Peter played an A chord when I wanted an F # minor."
I'd argue that most tunes are modal enough you can get away with quite a few "wrong" chords as a guitar player - substituting a B minor for a D major once in a while, or walking up or down the neck (D maj, E min, F# min, G maj, A maj, B minor.*)
* NB, not being a guitar player I don't know the proper names of the chords I just listed, some of them probably have names like F # minor 7th diminished cousin twice removed. I'm pretty much just listing bass notes.
I'm pretty sure people get just as p****ed off with bad melody players as anyone else, but it's harder to speak the truth about them, especially on a website. There are lots more of them than backing players, and believe me, if the grimaces and mumblings at sessions I've attended are anything to go by, there are plenty of disgruntled players around!
Also, as some dodgy melody players seem to over-rate their own importance, and under-rate the importance of accompaniment, it becomes easy to bash the acc players for the least wee thing, clacky percussion first, then bodhrans, then guitars......even though the slagging may be unwarranted ...you get the idea.
Re: Defense (sic) of the guitarist who knows what a key is
What pisses me off with rhythm players are the ones who insist on playing in a different key, even after being told what key they should be in. These are the ones I get a blank look from when I ask them what key THEY finished up in?
I will also add the ones who insist on thrashing their strings louder and louder, when the tune is not getting faster.
On the other hand, I take my hat off to the ones who can follow me with new tunes, and when the occasional strange chord needs prompting, they remember it next time.
Good question Schy.
Most of the regular contributors to this forum (all 7 of them) are melody players and so have a somewhat one sided view of rhythm and chord playing.
Slagging off the "other" is a common way that insecure people use to reinforce their groups solidarity, explaining it away as "group dynamics".
But don't let it get you down or tempt you to drop to their level.
Sessions don't happen on the Internet.
Is this the "Secret Seven", PP? I could maybe work out a "Famous Five" from our members. Could someone tell me if bottles of "pop", food hampers, and cross dressing is acceptable at an ITM session? :=)
I think we are arguing pointlessly, melody players versus accompanists. The absolutely fundamental poiint is to play whatever (appropriate) instrument you will, but sensitively. This means listening carefully to those around you as you play, and balancing your volume to blend in, not to dominate things. And if you don't know the tune, for heaven's sake play very softly, if you will, while you learn it alongside those who do. We should be encouraging everybody, rather than be slagging each other! Oh, all right then, death to all string tea-chest bassists, and shaky eggs!
I certainly never intended to incite a melody vs. backer cage-match fight. Well, maybe if they were allowed to hit each other with chairs and the like...
I just have this belief that, in general, whenever good-natured slagging takes on a more contentious air, the worst offenders seem to have the inability to laugh at or be critical of things in their own garden, so to speak.
Of course, you're right in pointing out the all-importance of etiquette, petemay. It's the ultimate answer to eliminate the cause of slagging (if you ignore acerbic folks who will b**ch about everything, regardless). And those people that continue to ignore etiquette suggestions should feel their ears burning as we mercilessly slag, openly mock, and remorselessly degrade them in this forum (sharpen your knives)...
I love the sound of a well played rhythm guitar in ITM. I play the guitar but only sparingly as there is no shortage of rhythmic accompaniment (it seems) and I play mostly melodies. A good guitar player I think can be a great addition.
Having said that i think guitar players in the Wetsern World are a dime a dozen. Everone I know, it seems, thinks they can play the guitar (and of course it only takes a couple of questions to figure out where they are comming from.)
I don't think you can remotely campare the musical knowlege and hours of practice time and dedicated concentration a fiddle player (say for example) puts in on tunes to even sit in for a few tunes at a seisiun, with some marginal musican, at best, who thinks he/she has a "feel" for ITM and can bang out a few major and minor chords. Biiiig deeeeaaal!
The occasional exceptional guitar player, (Who, typically, also play's at least one melodic instrument I might add) I don't think ever has to worry about being downtrodden.
As one of the seven regular contributors to this site (who have all cultivated dozens of different screen names and personalities apiece to enhance the illusion that this is a world-wide internet community) I have a theory that perhaps, Schy, you have simply missed a lot of bitching about out of tune flutes, session hijackers, loud banjos, scratchy fiddles, melody players who speed up, leak flute spit into our beer, steal our chairs, poke us in the eye with their bow, play too loud or too quiet, play the same tunes every week, play tunes we don't like, and smell funny. Of course you don't have time to read every single thread on the forum, so maybe you've just skipped a lot of titles like "That gosh-darn banjo player?" and "What is it with whistles?" Perhaps your perception of unfairness may be related to your choice of discussions? Just a thought.
And take no heed of PP's claim that all 7 of us are strictly melody players. I also play bodhran, guitar, harp, hammered dulcimer and piano. And spoons and shakey eggs when the mood hits me. Last night I even got my hands on a djembe.
Sorry to be pedantic but I actually said "most" not "all" in the critical part of that sentence.
I play Whistle, Recorder, flute, GHB, Bombard, Bodhran and Guitar, so you won't see me slagging of any instruments, except female Opera singers voices that make me want to vomit.
Hey no ones perfect.
PP
Well most of myself is a melody player so I guess you're technically correct, but I'll still happily slag all kinds of instruments:
All musical instruments without exception are terrible, horrible, intolerable noise machines in the hands of a beginner and should be flung post haste onto a bonfire. I have been a beginner on dozens of instruments, so I am in a position to know.
Just before this thread gets lost, I'd like to mention that I went to see Joe Burke last night. He was accompanied by his wife Anne on guitar most of the evening, although she played "box" as well. She performed a very simple but sympathetic accompaniment using basic chords in the first position. It sounded very pleasant and effective and suited Joe's melody playing.
I'm not suggesting that "backers" shouldn't attempt more ambitious and adventurous techniques--I try it myself, from time to time. It's just that "simple" can be just as effective and, certainly, a lot better than overcomplicated arrangements when the player(s) don't know what they're doing.
Thanks for the couple of supportive replies to my earlier comments on sensitivity and eitiquette. We English (generalising here) are terrible at complaining directly to the source of irritation. It makes us feel guilty and a bit arrogant. (He who casts the first stone, etc.) But in our local session we were beginning to be plagued by a string bassist and exhibitionist bodrhan-player (he didn't do it both at once!) Eventually, I plucked up courage and had a civilised conversation with him, explaining that it's demoralizing for me to practice every day and put in hours of concentration to learn difficult and beautiful reels, only to have them sabotaged by inappropriate instruments played too loudly and insensitively. He actually took it on the chin, and we haven't seen him again. My point is, that I complained to him with courtesy and etiquette, rather than being nasty and rejecting, and it seems to have achieved results.
Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
I don't mean to slag on the melody-gods of ITM, but I'd like to raise a point for discussion. Why is it that people have a field-day complaining about beginning guitarists, but are seemingly incapable of turning the same critical eye on beginners in their own instrumental "family"? I don't really mean to stick a finger in the eye of those who would besmirch my fellow guitarists, but criticism and condemnation seems to come pretty damn quick to backers.
Now I realize that most of these comments show up in discussions pertaining to backup instruments and backing styles, and they are wholly appropriate. Still, I can't help but get the impression that many people jumping on the case of beginning guitarists are apparently deaf to the beginner's squeaking fiddle in their other ear, the guy across the table bellowing away on his brand-new box, and, god forbid, the novice banjo burying everything in off-note plunks and a-rhythmic triplets.
I'll mock bad guitarists all day long with anyone. (Even if I can't yet reproduce the sounds of my musical heros, I'm still knowledgeable enough about my instrument to know when someone is being clever and when they’re barely hanging on and should go home and practice more. In fact, because of this, I'm even quicker to condemn them than I would be for other instrumentalists, who can easily fool me into thinking they’re better than they really are.)
So how about a little evenhandedness?
Legal Declarations:
1. If you happen to recognize my name as someone with whom I've shared a table with at some session or another... I'm not talking about you! (I've listened to far more sessions than I’ve played in.)
2. Though I've been diligently working on improvement for a few years, I still consider myself a beginner in many, many ways (no doubt others would be just as quick with that assessment), and am in no way positioning myself as the end-all style-arbitrator. I'm just making an observation and posing a thought for disucussion.
3. Beginners (like me) have every right to play (as long as the session-masters accept and encourage them at that particular session). There's simply no other way to grow, gain crucial experience, and learn to apply what you've been working on in your living room.
4. I'm of the position that the guitar is firmly entrenched in and is a part of the ITM tradition, and it's presence is justified. The presence of a guitar doesn't make or break the "traditional" sound any more than would the presence or absence of a mandolin in Bluegrass or a trumpet in jazz in any individual band or gathering.
5. I love the banjo.
Schy
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by Schy
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Interesting point. I think the reason backers get the tongue lashing more often than melody players is that they are far more likely to try to play along with every single tune all night long whether they know it or not, thereby polluting the entire evening with their lack of skill instead of just the odd tune here and there.
Melody players (with a few exceptions, including myself) generally don't try to fake it if they don't know a tune, making the five or ten minutes of squeaky, awful butchery to which they subject the better players in an evening more tolerable.
If you pay close attention, you'll find the melody players who noodle during tunes they don't know get just as hard a time as the backers who noodle during tunes they don't know. It seems pretty consistent to me.
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
If you love the banjo, why not start playing that at sessions?? Or your 'zouk.
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by Tusong200
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
In fact, most of us would probably *rather* hear a novice guitar player butchering tunes all night long than, say, a novice piper or whistle player - if the choice had to be made...
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
This perhaps doesn't answer the question completely, but I think it is true to say that, in some respects, melody players have an easier time of it. Playing in a session as one of a number of melody players, one can easily get away with a few fluffed notes here and there - perhaps even losing the rhythm for a few beats. The accompanist, on the other hand, has a responsibility placed upon him or her to provide a consistent and seamless backing and, in playing the odd wrong chord, could be ruining the whole session. For an accompanist, playing out of time is a very serious crime indeed.
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Tusong200,
I'm hyper-conscious about polluting a session with my meager abilities. I've managed to woodshed the zouk and guitar to the point where I can bring them out in public, play them softly, and not make too much of an ass of myself. I love the banjo, but an spectacularly aweful at it... so it stays in the woodshed for the time being!
(My disclaimer comment above was directed at the long-suffering banjo players who probably catch more hell than any other melody players. I didn't want my "off-note plunks and a-rhythmic triplets" comment to sting them any more. The North American epicenter of a-rhythmic banjo triplets is my livingroom...)
Schy
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by Schy
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
You are right to leave the banjo at home. A badly played banjo is tougher to ignore than a badly played guitar.
David, I think you're a little harsh to say the odd wrong chord can pollute the whole session. The best guitar players I know still get a chord wrong once in a while but they add so much to the session I wouldn't say "Oh, that's it. My evening is ruined because Peter played an A chord when I wanted an F # minor."
I'd argue that most tunes are modal enough you can get away with quite a few "wrong" chords as a guitar player - substituting a B minor for a D major once in a while, or walking up or down the neck (D maj, E min, F# min, G maj, A maj, B minor.*)
* NB, not being a guitar player I don't know the proper names of the chords I just listed, some of them probably have names like F # minor 7th diminished cousin twice removed. I'm pretty much just listing bass notes.
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Oh, but you can't get away with bad rhythm, unless you only play with a few tunes here and there.
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
I'm pretty sure people get just as p****ed off with bad melody players as anyone else, but it's harder to speak the truth about them, especially on a website. There are lots more of them than backing players, and believe me, if the grimaces and mumblings at sessions I've attended are anything to go by, there are plenty of disgruntled players around!
Also, as some dodgy melody players seem to over-rate their own importance, and under-rate the importance of accompaniment, it becomes easy to bash the acc players for the least wee thing, clacky percussion first, then bodhrans, then guitars......even though the slagging may be unwarranted ...you get the idea.
Jim
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Defense (sic) of the guitarist who knows what a key is
What pisses me off with rhythm players are the ones who insist on playing in a different key, even after being told what key they should be in. These are the ones I get a blank look from when I ask them what key THEY finished up in?
I will also add the ones who insist on thrashing their strings louder and louder, when the tune is not getting faster.
On the other hand, I take my hat off to the ones who can follow me with new tunes, and when the occasional strange chord needs prompting, they remember it next time.
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Good question Schy.
Most of the regular contributors to this forum (all 7 of them) are melody players and so have a somewhat one sided view of rhythm and chord playing.
Slagging off the "other" is a common way that insecure people use to reinforce their groups solidarity, explaining it away as "group dynamics".
But don't let it get you down or tempt you to drop to their level.
Sessions don't happen on the Internet.
TTFN
PP
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Is this the "Secret Seven", PP? I could maybe work out a "Famous Five" from our members. Could someone tell me if bottles of "pop", food hampers, and cross dressing is acceptable at an ITM session? :=)
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by John J.
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Secret sessions on Kirrin island, perhaps?
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Q
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
I think we are arguing pointlessly, melody players versus accompanists. The absolutely fundamental poiint is to play whatever (appropriate) instrument you will, but sensitively. This means listening carefully to those around you as you play, and balancing your volume to blend in, not to dominate things. And if you don't know the tune, for heaven's sake play very softly, if you will, while you learn it alongside those who do. We should be encouraging everybody, rather than be slagging each other! Oh, all right then, death to all string tea-chest bassists, and shaky eggs!
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by petemay
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
I certainly never intended to incite a melody vs. backer cage-match fight. Well, maybe if they were allowed to hit each other with chairs and the like...
I just have this belief that, in general, whenever good-natured slagging takes on a more contentious air, the worst offenders seem to have the inability to laugh at or be critical of things in their own garden, so to speak.
Of course, you're right in pointing out the all-importance of etiquette, petemay. It's the ultimate answer to eliminate the cause of slagging (if you ignore acerbic folks who will b**ch about everything, regardless). And those people that continue to ignore etiquette suggestions should feel their ears burning as we mercilessly slag, openly mock, and remorselessly degrade them in this forum (sharpen your knives)...
Schy
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Schy
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
I tend to agree with petemay.
I love the sound of a well played rhythm guitar in ITM. I play the guitar but only sparingly as there is no shortage of rhythmic accompaniment (it seems) and I play mostly melodies. A good guitar player I think can be a great addition.
Having said that i think guitar players in the Wetsern World are a dime a dozen. Everone I know, it seems, thinks they can play the guitar (and of course it only takes a couple of questions to figure out where they are comming from.)
I don't think you can remotely campare the musical knowlege and hours of practice time and dedicated concentration a fiddle player (say for example) puts in on tunes to even sit in for a few tunes at a seisiun, with some marginal musican, at best, who thinks he/she has a "feel" for ITM and can bang out a few major and minor chords. Biiiig deeeeaaal!
The occasional exceptional guitar player, (Who, typically, also play's at least one melodic instrument I might add) I don't think ever has to worry about being downtrodden.
my 2 cents
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
As one of the seven regular contributors to this site (who have all cultivated dozens of different screen names and personalities apiece to enhance the illusion that this is a world-wide internet community) I have a theory that perhaps, Schy, you have simply missed a lot of bitching about out of tune flutes, session hijackers, loud banjos, scratchy fiddles, melody players who speed up, leak flute spit into our beer, steal our chairs, poke us in the eye with their bow, play too loud or too quiet, play the same tunes every week, play tunes we don't like, and smell funny. Of course you don't have time to read every single thread on the forum, so maybe you've just skipped a lot of titles like "That gosh-darn banjo player?" and "What is it with whistles?" Perhaps your perception of unfairness may be related to your choice of discussions? Just a thought.
And take no heed of PP's claim that all 7 of us are strictly melody players. I also play bodhran, guitar, harp, hammered dulcimer and piano. And spoons and shakey eggs when the mood hits me. Last night I even got my hands on a djembe.
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Damm, my secret's out ... I won't be able to use my "Michael Gill" persona any more
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Just a person
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Sorry to be pedantic but I actually said "most" not "all" in the critical part of that sentence.
I play Whistle, Recorder, flute, GHB, Bombard, Bodhran and Guitar, so you won't see me slagging of any instruments, except female Opera singers voices that make me want to vomit.
Hey no ones perfect.
PP
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Point well taken, FoV! I seem to recall seeing perhaps one or two posts of that nature sometime in past...
Schy
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Schy
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Well most of myself is a melody player so I guess you're technically correct, but I'll still happily slag all kinds of instruments:
All musical instruments without exception are terrible, horrible, intolerable noise machines in the hands of a beginner and should be flung post haste onto a bonfire. I have been a beginner on dozens of instruments, so I am in a position to know.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Several times my instrument was taken away and I was flung post haste into a bonfire.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Just before this thread gets lost, I'd like to mention that I went to see Joe Burke last night. He was accompanied by his wife Anne on guitar most of the evening, although she played "box" as well. She performed a very simple but sympathetic accompaniment using basic chords in the first position. It sounded very pleasant and effective and suited Joe's melody playing.
I'm not suggesting that "backers" shouldn't attempt more ambitious and adventurous techniques--I try it myself, from time to time. It's just that "simple" can be just as effective and, certainly, a lot better than overcomplicated arrangements when the player(s) don't know what they're doing.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by John J.
Re: Defense of the Downtrodden (guitarist)
Thanks for the couple of supportive replies to my earlier comments on sensitivity and eitiquette. We English (generalising here) are terrible at complaining directly to the source of irritation. It makes us feel guilty and a bit arrogant. (He who casts the first stone, etc.) But in our local session we were beginning to be plagued by a string bassist and exhibitionist bodrhan-player (he didn't do it both at once!) Eventually, I plucked up courage and had a civilised conversation with him, explaining that it's demoralizing for me to practice every day and put in hours of concentration to learn difficult and beautiful reels, only to have them sabotaged by inappropriate instruments played too loudly and insensitively. He actually took it on the chin, and we haven't seen him again. My point is, that I complained to him with courtesy and etiquette, rather than being nasty and rejecting, and it seems to have achieved results.
# Posted on June 25th 2004 by petemay