I am very new to ITM. In my recent search for ITM resources I have come accross a number of sites where it is implied that the recorder is used for classical music, not ITM. I get the impression that when classical recorder players switch over to ITM, they also switch over to a more appropriate instrument.
"I'm always nervous that if I went to a session and pulled out a recorder (rather than a whistle) that I'd get *looks*. Maybe it's just me."
That was posted by Natasha_fawn, and is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. So I guess it's true then, recorder players are generally looked down on.
I don't think it a problem if you are able to keep up with the tunes and the speed... But often the sound of a tin whistle or flute is preferred. But why always do like the others?
Shrog, I used to be a recorder player, and when I first started playing the IT repertoire I got a lot of comments to the effect "wow, I didn't know you could do that on a recorder!" Now I play whistle and wooden flute almost exclusively, because I want to be totally proficient on them. Specifically, the upper octave D note on the recorder is all open except for the left middle finger. On the flute and whistle, all fingers are down (except perhaps left index). This is the biggest hurdle for recorder players when switching to flute/whistle. (Not to mention the thumb hole.)
The Cittern player Jonathan Sobol (sp?) once likened the cittern to "a bouzouki made by the British)". I would offer that the recorder is an Irish whistle made by the Germans. The recorder is a wonderfully versatile, fully chromatic instrument, however, it is not considered traditional for ITM. You CAN however, play just about anything in the ITM literature on it, but in some cases the articulation will differ from the whistle because of the different fingerings. You can also play an excellent Bb, F natural, and G# in both octaves, which is much harder to achieve on the D whistle. It takes several whistles in different keys to replace one recorder. Anyway, as I mentioned, the biggest hurdles are the upper octave D fingering, and rigid traditionalists. Our session has a recorder player who compliments the other instruments quite nicely.
Chris
Apparently, they're very welcome in Manchester, England but not so in Boston, New England.
I'd imagine you'd have no problem with transferring the whistle so you can always carry one, just in case.
I would recomend getting a whistle and learning that alongside recorder. The fingering system is simpler, so it wouldn't be too hard. I played recorder before I played whistle too. Then, you could keep on playing your recorder, but you would always have the whistle, just in case the recorder was ever unwelcome. I never play recorder anymore, just whistle. I just like it better.
Hi, I'm Jonathan. I've been lurking on the session for ages, but I do check up on what's happening periodically. I'm 28 and play 'cello mainly (and teach it), but also whistle and flute (ish). I'll try to be a more active participant in future.
Anyway, I see nothing wrong with the recorder in sessions, if it's done well. There's a recorder player who goes down to my local session, and she is utterly unbelievable. Tons of tunes, all fluent, up to speed, with a lilt . . .
I was a recorder player before I took up whistle and flute. I could play the melodies on the recorder, but I couldn't get it to have the character that was so appealing to me about the whistle. I decided the only thing reasonable to do was switch to the instrument that inspired me to play ITM. I wasn't getting involved with ITM just to join in with sessions or to simply play Irish melodies -- I wanted to get that sound I was enamored with. So it comes down to whether you're just interested in playing the melodies -- or capturing the character of the music.
One "problem" with recorder players in sessions can be that some people just would like to join a session (in the case of the two recorder players I met in the sessions I go to it was because their husband/boyfriend was playing also). They already know how to play the recorder and so they just play the tunes as they would play baroque music. In my two cases, they were not really interested in learning ITM. It is mainly for this reason, I think, that many ITM musicians are rather skeptical when it comes to recorders in sessions. And in this case, when a musician is not really interested in learning the style - yes, I personally do consider the recorder at least inappropriate because it shows disregard for the tradition.
But if you by choice (and not just because you happen to own a recorder) would like to play the recorder in a session and are really interested in learning the typical phrasing/breathing/ornamentation - go for it. Generally, the musician (and his/her attitude) is more important than the instrument. However, it might not be a bad idea to make it clear to others that you are genuinely into ITM by also learning the tinwhistle. I know that for my (biased) judgment of the two recorder players I came across it would have made a big difference if they had tried to learn the whistle also. Plus I'm sure there are tunes where you will find that you prefer the sound of the whistle over the recorder and vice versa.
Actually, it might be a bit easier to get into the "Irishness" of the music using a tinwhistle since there is much more material available on the net on how to play the tinwhistle than how to adjust playing the recorder to the ITM style. It would also be easier to listen to great whistle players such as Mary Bergin and immitate what they're doing if you play the same instrument. And once you know what you're doing on the whistle it's probably much easier to adapt that to the recorder than the other way round.
And whistles like the Generation cost only a couple of bucks. Not exactly a risky investment!
You can do whatever you want. There aren't any laws restricting recorder playing. Just don't expect players of quality who like the traditional sound to welcome it if they don't know you.
Are you really good on recorder? The reason I ask is because many people take up recorder because it is an "easy" instrument to play. Actually, whistle is easier, but many people are not familiar with it at the time they take up recorder. If you just sort of doodle on recorder, I recommend switching over to whistle for the reasons several others have already given. If you are really good, the music will sound fine, even if not particularly "traditional." Bear in mind that the need to use the thumb hole to control octaves will make certain phrases all but impossible to play fluidly, and in general, the ornaments of whistle/flute playing will be more of a challenge than it needs to be.
Basicly, the music wasn't written to fit recorder, and it was written (most of it) to be played on the whistle. So, no matter what you do with your recorder playing, it's probably best to get a whistle. Like heike said, they are very inexpensive.
Shrog, I won't lie to you, lots of people at the sessions here (Montreal) have a big problem with the recorder. Complaints are usually "too loud" or "not Irish". I don't mind it though, and the complaints usually come from people who are, in my opinion, a little stuck up. If you don't want anybody to give you dirty looks, play the whistle or flute. If you just feel driven to play ITM on a recorder dadblangit and to hell with what anybody else thinks, go for it. As heike mentioned, your attitude will make more of an impact on the people you play with than which instrument you play or how well you play it.
Kerri, that's interesting. I haven't been to any sessions up there, but I've heard that Montreal is very tolerant and very open to different kinds of instruments and different styles (i.e: Irish, Scottish, Quebecois-pardon my spelling).
Sorry, back to the topic. I'm refraining from from voicing my opinion since I think I've said enough about recorders in the past
There was a time when the accordion was considered unsuitable for Irish music. Then along came the likes of Joe Cooley, Paddy O'Brien, Joe Burke etc to show it was possible and now lots of people are playing accordian.
Perhaps PP will be the Paddy O'Brien of the recorder and in twenty years time everybody will be learning recorder. But I'm a smoker so I won't hold my breath.
Joyce, it's true. The crowd up here is one of the nicest and most (as you put it) "tolerant" (I might say 'innovative') I've ever met. This city has way more than its fair share of absolutely spectacular players and composers. I'm not trying to give the impression we're intolerant. I'm just expressing that even here in this mecca of innovation certain people grumble about recorders. So if Shrog doesn't want to tick ANYBODY off he should try the whistle. I still think some people are itching to get ticked off no matter what you play, though.
The recorder is unlikely to catch on that way just as the silver flute hasn't either. The silver (Boehm) flute has had plenty of opportunities, and even a couple of notable exponents, but it's not sought after as far as I can tell. The recorder has no one to promote it in this way for ITM, so it's even less likely to catch on.
haha, Shrog, I know what you're talking about. I think my first discussion here was about recorders (see Recorders, quirks thereof).
I play recorder and whistle, and except for the F#, the whistle has harder fingerings in my opinion, because of the half-holes. It is probably easier to pick up the whistle but I think it would take just as much effort to master both instruments.
With the exception of half-holing, I've found that whistle and recorder techniques are essentially indentical.
With regards to going one octave up, I just overblow on a recorder as one would a tin whistle. It's pretty unorthodox, but it works well enough for me.
I didn't add the reason I like having our recorder-player around is he is able to do all the wacky tunes I know that the flute players / whistle players can't play. He also has a sweet sounding maple jobbie, not one of them cheap plasticky thingies they gave us in grade school.
At one time I played ITM on the recorder a fair bit. I like to think that I was playing it in a style, and trying for a tonal quality pretty similar to wooden flute and/or whistle. I found the chromatic-ness handy.
I guess I must have been doing okay, because the comment I most often got was "I didn't know it was possible to play the recorder like a whistle." So I agree that a good feel for the style and so on is more important.
However, over the years I don't go in for it that much, although I still play the recorder, it's mainly early music. I much prefer to put peoples backs up with the accordion!
- Kris
I was wondering if anyone was going to say something about the English Concertina, knew it was coming.
Jack you didnt disapoint me. Hahaha! OH WHERE OH WHERE COULD DOW BE?
True, it suffers from not being sought after, but the Brotherhood is working on it! It's a shame that there are so many people with no taste who want to play honky anglo poxboxes...
I have a friend who is a piper and an accomplished exponent of traditional music on the recorder. He will argue to the last that the recorder is a far superior instrument to the whistle.
He told me not long ago how he attended a concert in Ireland featuring Carlos Nunez, the Galician pipes and recorder virtuoso. At some point during the concert, Nunez threw a load of plastic recorders out into the audience, clearly trying to make the point, "when are you Irish going to stop piddling about with those whistles and start playing a proper instrument?"
The only reason the recorder is viewed as 'not tradtional' is that there are not enough good traditional players of it. Surely any session would be better of with a good recorder player than a bad whistle player.
It's almost like showing up at the Tour de France with a Mountain Bike instead of a Road Bike. A Mtn bike is a great machine but would be extremely difficult to use in a road race, not to mention dangerous. Sure you might be able to do it, but why not use a road bike? Same with this situation. Both are fine instruments and serve their purposes. But I personally think a whistle sounds much nicer and very traditional in regards to Irish Music, while recorders also have their own type of music and niche....sorry I couldn't resist since I love sports and the Tour will soon be going on....ok, back to the tunes...it's bad having DSL in the kitchen!
I wonder what guys like John McKenna, Paddy Carty, Josie McDermott, Micho Russel or John Doonan(not sure if he's still alive) would of had to say about this subject. Why didn't they ever play recorders? Just a thought since these guys have heavily influenced so many musicians today...
I'm afraid John Doonan is no longer with us. I don't know if he played the recorder, but he was a bit of a rebel as he usually played the piccolo, even on his "Flute for the Feis" album. Surely people who get the music can play it on almost anything, and vice versa?
It is so difficult to join in on these discussions when you are in a different time zone...
Thank you all very much for your feedback.
OK, this is what I got out of all the comments:
The recorder is a very nice instrument, but people assume you're not serious if you carry one (maybe I should try playing the spoons instead). If you have a whistle, they assume you can play, and if you have a recorder they assume you can not. Simple.
I have recently become rather obsessed with ITM, even though it is not part of my cultural background. I have always been interested in music in general, but it is ITM that inspires me to pick up an instrument and join in. I have 2 alto recorders, one descant recorder, a tin whistle, a keyless flute (actually it that cheap little Yamaha fife that is not really a fife), a fiddle and a couple of guitars.
I have been trying a little bit of everything, and the general feeling I got is that I want to focus on fiddle and recorder, because I REALLY enjoy playing these instruments, and I like the sounds I can produce on them.
From the above discussion, the criticism includes:
* Too loud - I find it difficult to control the volume on the whistle, but not the recorder. The trick with the recorder is to change the volume without changing the pitch, and I have no problem doing this (it took some practice).
* High D is played with all holes open - I only use this form occasionally. Most of the time I play it with fingering similar to the whistle - six holes covered, overblown or halfholed.
* Recorder players try to play ITM, but mess it up with their baroque style background - I have never played anything but ITM on the recorder. The other day someone made me listen to Vivaldi's Recorder Concertos. It was awfull. When I play recorder it does not sound anything like that.
* Recorder players can't keep up - When I play recorder, it feels like I'm possessed. I see my fingers moving, as if they are disconnected from me. I have never felt that a tune is too fast for me. When I practice I often start a tune slowly and speed up as I go along. I stop when my wife says "That's ridiculous, nobody can listen, let alone dance, that fast!"
In all, I think that there can be no REAL arguments against the recorder, except that you will have a hard time if you care what others think of you. The reason it is not generally accepted, is because there are so few great recorder players in ITM. So everybody does what everybody else does and switches over to whistle. Potentially great recorder players switch over to whistle before they can become great. But I shall persevere. I'm just a beginner, but many years from now I will look back at all this and I will most probably say "...I should have learnt the bloody whistle..."
How about this argument - they dont sound very nice! No offence inteaded but I'm deffo on Jacks side! If you want to play trad...then learn an instrument that is accepted in trad circles. I personally dont like the sound of recorder in trad - maybe cause I'm not used to it cause it isnt really often that you hear a great recorder player in a session and all. Actually - Ive heard some people who were pretty good on the ole recorder, but I just dont think the sound of a recorder does any justice to the tunes at all.
Of course you can play trad on any instrument - I mean...a bodhran player could play the tamborine in the same style as the bodhran....doesnt mean it is going to sound good.
You had obviously made up your mind about the recorder before posting...so why did you bother??
I worry that your wife says that 'nobody could listen, let alone dance' as fast as you play...thats scary - but obviously a whole nother thread that has been done to death as well
It's not rude to play the recorder as such, but it's rude to sit and play the tunes if you don't know the music and this is what recorder players generaly do, hence the reputation. But heck, there's loads of whistle players and flute players and fiddle players ect do that too, and that's equally rude.
Shrog, why don't you learn both recorder *and* the whistle?? If you ever visit a session in Ireland or anywhere else where recorders might be frowned upon, you'll have a back-up plan. I do believe we certainly care about what others think when it comes to the things we are passionate about.
Plus if you ever decide to play wooden flute (which to me personally is the meaning of life ) you'll already have the fingering down from learning the whistle....
The first trad tune I ever played was on a recorder, with guitar accompaniment, in a folk club in Port Elizabeth, nearly 10 years ago. This was years before I had even heard about sessions, or the Bothy Band, or the word "fipple". I think the tunes were 'I buried my wife and danced on here grave', and 'Brian Boru's march' - two tunes I'd picked up off the Net somewhere.
I remember I'd tried to learn on a Generation knock-off (yeah, a 'fake' generation) whistle, but it sounded really bad to me at the time, as I was used to the tone of the descant and alto recorders.
When I started playing Irish music properly, oh, I dunno - nearly a year ago now, I guess, it was on a silver clarke whistle. From the beginning the idea was always to graduate to the flute, and the fingering's exactly the same, so that was a plus.
And then when I discovered what a great sound good whistles can get, I became quite fond of whistle playing - it's not something I'll ever drift away from, I think, even now that my flute's here.
In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be ordering new A & F whistles from Mr Dixon next month - every whistle is like a totally different instrument to me, yet the fingering's the same no matter what the key... and it's great training for when I eventually get myself some pipes.
That said, I can still play recorder, and do sometimes, though not Irish!
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's not such a difficult transition to make, and you won't lose your recorder chops... and once you start on the whistle, a multitude of new worlds seem to open up... worlds often associated with the whistle accumulation disorder so well documented over at the Chaffing Nipple
Recorders are part of that, as far as I'm concerned - have you seen the great big bloody bass recorders out there? Must have!
But when I only played recorder... it was just the descant and alto. Funny old world, innit?
AFAIK, after the end of the Baroque, the first person in over 150 years to make recorders was Arnold Dolmetsch, somewhere in the first half of the 20th century. If that's so, then they weren't a readily available household instrument until pretty recently. And I've tried some of the old Dolmetschs... he had a lot of rediscovery to do!
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder? Conclusion...
In the last 24 hours I have sat down with the recorder and the whistle, and tried to get to the bottom of this. I switched back and forth, recorder, whistle, whistle, recorder, trying to listen to the finer nuances of each instrument.
I had to face a couple of obstacles though: firstly, my recorder is new and in pristine condition, while my whistle is old and "beat up". Secondly, I am inexperienced, not just playing, but listening too. However, I think I have heard enough to make a fairly informed decission:
I was wrong and you are right. The whistle is the right tool for the job, it is the traditional choice, because it does sound better for this style of music. I will always have a special fondness for the recorder, but for ITM I will play the tin whistle.
See Dow, us anglo players are very helpful and have a better grip on the real music. We haven't wasted all our brain cells trying to sound like Irish concertina -- because it IS Irish concertina. And we have enough brain cells left over to help out nice fellas like Shrog here. Just think about all the good you could be doing if you picked the right tool for the right job, Dow. Things would seem so much more optimistic and positive, you’d be so much happier too. Come on Dow… Shrog did it… now you do it.
Hee hee, we'll wait till Beebs gets back from Willie Week and I'll bring it along so you can wind her up, for sure. Oh, shhhhh, she might be listening...
I mean this week - this Sunday coming. I hope you can make it. There's supposed to be no footy match this week so it'll be quieter, and quite a few of the musos aren't going to be there so it'll be a smaller session.
Bummer, Dow, can't get there again until July 4 8>(
Q, no, not one of them, but I'd love to try one, are they the Paetzold ones? I have a Zenon bass in F and a Moeck great bass in C. I fantasise about having a contrabass in F one day but I'd probably need a soapbox to stand on to play it. (The sales blurb for the Moeck one is obviously translated straight from the German and says, "for players with a strong breath". ?8># )
Hi Shrog
There have been some wonderfully specious analogies in this thread, but Joyce’s mountain bike takes the biscuit.
If you play this music you are part of the tradition, don't let the neo-Irish puritans put you off. The Recorder is accepted in the sessions I attend here in Manchester and I play with real Irish people (actually born there)
One great advantage of the Recorder is that the second octave is not as loud relative to the first as on the whistle, which is one of the reasons I started playing it in my Kaley band, as it's a lot easier to mic-up.
You've also got more ornamentation possibilities on low D, such as GHB patterns.
How are you getting along with the ornamentation? If you’re interested I post some of the ones I use.
It seems to me if one is truly serious about the tradition and is concerned about fitting in, it would be counter productive to learn all of those tunes on recorder when you could do the same amount of work and have them learned on whistle, a more appropriate instrument, and no one will ever look at you funny in a session for playing one.
If you couldn't care less about going with tradition and couldn't care less about funny looks or disapproval, then that's a different story altogether. But it seems that Shrog does care.
Hey Joyce, I'll take your biscuit, I'm on a *high* carb diet!! And pass me some of that great orange marmalade to slather it up with--the kind you alway get in Irish B&B's...
Hi Andee, don't worry, when I'm on holiday, I like to eat lots of carbs! Sky's the limit
And I love orange marmlade too! Never a shortage of carbs in the Catskills..hehehe
Personally, I like the recorder much more than whistle, because it isn't as loud as the whistle in the upper register and it can do any key easily. That being said, I do play whistle, flute, and flageolet as well when the time calls for it, but recorder is the old standby. If you get a wood one, you probably won't get as many looks. From a historical standpoint, I'm sure irish musicians didn't really mind whether they had a "proper" instrument to play ITM, they used what they had.
-Andrew
'neo-Irish Puritans'? *blush* that is the nicest thing anybody has ever said to me...
I'm assuming I was included in that statement...dont tell me it isnt so...please -it would be devastating!
Whoooaa - Dow & Tish...dont be messing -I know you two are just winding me up...you wouldnt really bring a giant recorder into the session - would you!!
We recently acquired a recorder player in our session here in Virginia. She has made it her business to learn all the tunes and is a joy to be around. That's all that matters to us. Goodness, if we can make room for an African drum (the player covers it with a piece of buckskin or chamois and it sounds just like a bodhran) then we certainly have room for her. God bless the music-makers, whatever they play!
Have you ever wished you could go back in time and give yourself advice about the future? It has been one and a half years since I started this thread, and although I can't go back and tell myself what to do, I can address others who find this thread and are wondering which choice to make.
Firstly, all the arguments about recorders being non-traditional are rubish. Secondly, whether people will "allow" you to play it or assume you are not good/serious is irelevant. You can play any music you want on any instrument you want.
But my advice to anybody about to undertake the amazing journey of learning irish music is this: As you get to know the music, you will find that you WANT to learn the traditional instrument. Sure, you may get an interesting sound by playing a tune on an electric guitar, or an oboe or trumpet, but the bulk of your repotoir you will want on a traditional instrument. Not because anybody says so, but because the music draws you there.
So, unless you also play classical or other music, don't waste your time with the recorder. Unless you also play rock'n'roll, don't bother with the electric guitar. Learning the music takes a lot of work and time, and every minute you spend on a "weird" instrument is a minute less on the instrument that you will eventually want to play.
I'm not saying you should not have fun and experiment and try all sorts of musical crossovers and so on, but when you are faced with the question of which instrument to choose when you start the journey, pick the more traditional one. The choice you make may not be traditional, but it should be the more traditional amongst you options.
Recorder or whistle? Whistle.
EADGBE or DADGAD? DADGAD.
Bongos or Bodhran? Bodhran.
Forks or spoons? Spoons.
Bangers and Mash? Yes please.
P.S. This is for people starting out. If you've been playing irish music on your instrument for years, I've got no advice for you.
Interesting thread. Of course, the recorder is not a baroque instrument (though current fingering dates from that period). It actually goes back to before the year 400. And any references to a "flute" before the mid 18th century are likely to actually mean the recorder. Today's flute was called--up through the 19th century--the traverse flute. Some say the recorder disappeared during the 19th century, but a recent book shows that this is not at all the case. It was commonly used for playing traditional music--hardly surprising in that the fingering is close to that of the bagpipes. As to playing style, I doubt that many recorder players adopted the classical method. Traditional tunes tend tofall into easy fingering patterns as though they were written for the instrument...and given the age of many, it is probable that a good number actually were!
Is it rude to play the recorder?
Is it rude to play the recorder?
I am very new to ITM. In my recent search for ITM resources I have come accross a number of sites where it is implied that the recorder is used for classical music, not ITM. I get the impression that when classical recorder players switch over to ITM, they also switch over to a more appropriate instrument.
Am I getting the wrong impression?
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Shrog
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Shrog, if you do a search on recorders in the Discussion part of this website, you'll find a few conversations about them.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by JMH
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Thanks Joyce. I did the search and I found this:
"I'm always nervous that if I went to a session and pulled out a recorder (rather than a whistle) that I'd get *looks*. Maybe it's just me."
That was posted by Natasha_fawn, and is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. So I guess it's true then, recorder players are generally looked down on.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Shrog
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I don't think it a problem if you are able to keep up with the tunes and the speed... But often the sound of a tin whistle or flute is preferred. But why always do like the others?
Lars.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Larshansen
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Shrog, I used to be a recorder player, and when I first started playing the IT repertoire I got a lot of comments to the effect "wow, I didn't know you could do that on a recorder!" Now I play whistle and wooden flute almost exclusively, because I want to be totally proficient on them. Specifically, the upper octave D note on the recorder is all open except for the left middle finger. On the flute and whistle, all fingers are down (except perhaps left index). This is the biggest hurdle for recorder players when switching to flute/whistle. (Not to mention the thumb hole.)
The Cittern player Jonathan Sobol (sp?) once likened the cittern to "a bouzouki made by the British)". I would offer that the recorder is an Irish whistle made by the Germans. The recorder is a wonderfully versatile, fully chromatic instrument, however, it is not considered traditional for ITM. You CAN however, play just about anything in the ITM literature on it, but in some cases the articulation will differ from the whistle because of the different fingerings. You can also play an excellent Bb, F natural, and G# in both octaves, which is much harder to achieve on the D whistle. It takes several whistles in different keys to replace one recorder. Anyway, as I mentioned, the biggest hurdles are the upper octave D fingering, and rigid traditionalists. Our session has a recorder player who compliments the other instruments quite nicely.
Chris
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by unique
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Apparently, they're very welcome in Manchester, England but not so in Boston, New England.
I'd imagine you'd have no problem with transferring the whistle so you can always carry one, just in case.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by John J.
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I always wondered (but was too lazy to research
why is it called a "recorder?"
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by grego
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I would recomend getting a whistle and learning that alongside recorder. The fingering system is simpler, so it wouldn't be too hard. I played recorder before I played whistle too. Then, you could keep on playing your recorder, but you would always have the whistle, just in case the recorder was ever unwelcome. I never play recorder anymore, just whistle. I just like it better.
-Max
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Oh, and one more advantage to learning the whistle is that if you ever wanted to move on to flute or pipes, it would be easier, having played whistle.
-Max
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Hi, I'm Jonathan. I've been lurking on the session for ages, but I do check up on what's happening periodically. I'm 28 and play 'cello mainly (and teach it), but also whistle and flute (ish). I'll try to be a more active participant in future.
Anyway, I see nothing wrong with the recorder in sessions, if it's done well. There's a recorder player who goes down to my local session, and she is utterly unbelievable. Tons of tunes, all fluent, up to speed, with a lilt . . .
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Jonathan
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I was a recorder player before I took up whistle and flute. I could play the melodies on the recorder, but I couldn't get it to have the character that was so appealing to me about the whistle. I decided the only thing reasonable to do was switch to the instrument that inspired me to play ITM. I wasn't getting involved with ITM just to join in with sessions or to simply play Irish melodies -- I wanted to get that sound I was enamored with. So it comes down to whether you're just interested in playing the melodies -- or capturing the character of the music.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
One "problem" with recorder players in sessions can be that some people just would like to join a session (in the case of the two recorder players I met in the sessions I go to it was because their husband/boyfriend was playing also). They already know how to play the recorder and so they just play the tunes as they would play baroque music. In my two cases, they were not really interested in learning ITM. It is mainly for this reason, I think, that many ITM musicians are rather skeptical when it comes to recorders in sessions. And in this case, when a musician is not really interested in learning the style - yes, I personally do consider the recorder at least inappropriate because it shows disregard for the tradition.
But if you by choice (and not just because you happen to own a recorder) would like to play the recorder in a session and are really interested in learning the typical phrasing/breathing/ornamentation - go for it. Generally, the musician (and his/her attitude) is more important than the instrument. However, it might not be a bad idea to make it clear to others that you are genuinely into ITM by also learning the tinwhistle. I know that for my (biased) judgment of the two recorder players I came across it would have made a big difference if they had tried to learn the whistle also. Plus I'm sure there are tunes where you will find that you prefer the sound of the whistle over the recorder and vice versa.
Actually, it might be a bit easier to get into the "Irishness" of the music using a tinwhistle since there is much more material available on the net on how to play the tinwhistle than how to adjust playing the recorder to the ITM style. It would also be easier to listen to great whistle players such as Mary Bergin and immitate what they're doing if you play the same instrument. And once you know what you're doing on the whistle it's probably much easier to adapt that to the recorder than the other way round.
And whistles like the Generation cost only a couple of bucks. Not exactly a risky investment!
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by heike
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
You can do whatever you want. There aren't any laws restricting recorder playing. Just don't expect players of quality who like the traditional sound to welcome it if they don't know you.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by jerball
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Are you really good on recorder? The reason I ask is because many people take up recorder because it is an "easy" instrument to play. Actually, whistle is easier, but many people are not familiar with it at the time they take up recorder. If you just sort of doodle on recorder, I recommend switching over to whistle for the reasons several others have already given. If you are really good, the music will sound fine, even if not particularly "traditional." Bear in mind that the need to use the thumb hole to control octaves will make certain phrases all but impossible to play fluidly, and in general, the ornaments of whistle/flute playing will be more of a challenge than it needs to be.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Ailin
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Basicly, the music wasn't written to fit recorder, and it was written (most of it) to be played on the whistle. So, no matter what you do with your recorder playing, it's probably best to get a whistle. Like heike said, they are very inexpensive.
Just my personal recomendation.
-Max
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Shrog, I won't lie to you, lots of people at the sessions here (Montreal) have a big problem with the recorder. Complaints are usually "too loud" or "not Irish". I don't mind it though, and the complaints usually come from people who are, in my opinion, a little stuck up. If you don't want anybody to give you dirty looks, play the whistle or flute. If you just feel driven to play ITM on a recorder dadblangit and to hell with what anybody else thinks, go for it. As heike mentioned, your attitude will make more of an impact on the people you play with than which instrument you play or how well you play it.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Most trad Irish dance music was written to play on the whistle.
Mm
Pull the other one it's got bells on.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Kerri, that's interesting. I haven't been to any sessions up there, but I've heard that Montreal is very tolerant and very open to different kinds of instruments and different styles (i.e: Irish, Scottish, Quebecois-pardon my spelling).
Sorry, back to the topic. I'm refraining from from voicing my opinion since I think I've said enough about recorders in the past
Play what you want and just have fun!
Joyce
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by JMH
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
There was a time when the accordion was considered unsuitable for Irish music. Then along came the likes of Joe Cooley, Paddy O'Brien, Joe Burke etc to show it was possible and now lots of people are playing accordian.
Perhaps PP will be the Paddy O'Brien of the recorder and in twenty years time everybody will be learning recorder. But I'm a smoker so I won't hold my breath.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by milesnagopaleen
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Joyce, it's true. The crowd up here is one of the nicest and most (as you put it) "tolerant" (I might say 'innovative') I've ever met. This city has way more than its fair share of absolutely spectacular players and composers. I'm not trying to give the impression we're intolerant. I'm just expressing that even here in this mecca of innovation certain people grumble about recorders. So if Shrog doesn't want to tick ANYBODY off he should try the whistle. I still think some people are itching to get ticked off no matter what you play, though.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
The recorder is unlikely to catch on that way just as the silver flute hasn't either. The silver (Boehm) flute has had plenty of opportunities, and even a couple of notable exponents, but it's not sought after as far as I can tell. The recorder has no one to promote it in this way for ITM, so it's even less likely to catch on.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
haha, Shrog, I know what you're talking about. I think my first discussion here was about recorders (see Recorders, quirks thereof).
I play recorder and whistle, and except for the F#, the whistle has harder fingerings in my opinion, because of the half-holes. It is probably easier to pick up the whistle but I think it would take just as much effort to master both instruments.
With the exception of half-holing, I've found that whistle and recorder techniques are essentially indentical.
With regards to going one octave up, I just overblow on a recorder as one would a tin whistle. It's pretty unorthodox, but it works well enough for me.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by micelfife
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I'd just like to add, for Dow's benefit, that the English-system concertina suffers in the same way when it comes to ITM.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Oops...
I forgot to add the laughy face to that last one.
hahahaha
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I didn't add the reason I like having our recorder-player around is he is able to do all the wacky tunes I know that the flute players / whistle players can't play. He also has a sweet sounding maple jobbie, not one of them cheap plasticky thingies they gave us in grade school.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
At one time I played ITM on the recorder a fair bit. I like to think that I was playing it in a style, and trying for a tonal quality pretty similar to wooden flute and/or whistle. I found the chromatic-ness handy.
I guess I must have been doing okay, because the comment I most often got was "I didn't know it was possible to play the recorder like a whistle." So I agree that a good feel for the style and so on is more important.
However, over the years I don't go in for it that much, although I still play the recorder, it's mainly early music. I much prefer to put peoples backs up with the accordion!
- Kris
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by kris
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I was wondering if anyone was going to say something about the English Concertina, knew it was coming.
Jack you didnt disapoint me. Hahaha! OH WHERE OH WHERE COULD DOW BE?
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Ani Trec-Noc
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I don't know, but you know he's gunna be pissed. hahahahaha
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I have a friend who is a piper and an accomplished exponent of traditional music on the recorder. He will argue to the last that the recorder is a far superior instrument to the whistle.
He told me not long ago how he attended a concert in Ireland featuring Carlos Nunez, the Galician pipes and recorder virtuoso. At some point during the concert, Nunez threw a load of plastic recorders out into the audience, clearly trying to make the point, "when are you Irish going to stop piddling about with those whistles and start playing a proper instrument?"
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
The only reason the recorder is viewed as 'not tradtional' is that there are not enough good traditional players of it. Surely any session would be better of with a good recorder player than a bad whistle player.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Thank God we have brilliant whistle players.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
It's almost like showing up at the Tour de France with a Mountain Bike instead of a Road Bike. A Mtn bike is a great machine but would be extremely difficult to use in a road race, not to mention dangerous. Sure you might be able to do it, but why not use a road bike? Same with this situation. Both are fine instruments and serve their purposes. But I personally think a whistle sounds much nicer and very traditional in regards to Irish Music, while recorders also have their own type of music and niche....sorry I couldn't resist since I love sports and the Tour will soon be going on....ok, back to the tunes...it's bad having DSL in the kitchen!
I wonder what guys like John McKenna, Paddy Carty, Josie McDermott, Micho Russel or John Doonan(not sure if he's still alive) would of had to say about this subject. Why didn't they ever play recorders? Just a thought since these guys have heavily influenced so many musicians today...
'night
joyce
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by JMH
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Maybe they just didn't have one. I had the damndest time trying to buy a nice recorder in Ireland.
;^)
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
"Always use the right tool for the right job." - Mr. Natural
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Sounds like a real stand-up guy, Jack!
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I'm afraid John Doonan is no longer with us. I don't know if he played the recorder, but he was a bit of a rebel as he usually played the piccolo, even on his "Flute for the Feis" album. Surely people who get the music can play it on almost anything, and vice versa?
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Just a person
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
It is so difficult to join in on these discussions when you are in a different time zone...
Thank you all very much for your feedback.
OK, this is what I got out of all the comments:
The recorder is a very nice instrument, but people assume you're not serious if you carry one (maybe I should try playing the spoons instead). If you have a whistle, they assume you can play, and if you have a recorder they assume you can not. Simple.
I have recently become rather obsessed with ITM, even though it is not part of my cultural background. I have always been interested in music in general, but it is ITM that inspires me to pick up an instrument and join in. I have 2 alto recorders, one descant recorder, a tin whistle, a keyless flute (actually it that cheap little Yamaha fife that is not really a fife), a fiddle and a couple of guitars.
I have been trying a little bit of everything, and the general feeling I got is that I want to focus on fiddle and recorder, because I REALLY enjoy playing these instruments, and I like the sounds I can produce on them.
From the above discussion, the criticism includes:
* Too loud - I find it difficult to control the volume on the whistle, but not the recorder. The trick with the recorder is to change the volume without changing the pitch, and I have no problem doing this (it took some practice).
* High D is played with all holes open - I only use this form occasionally. Most of the time I play it with fingering similar to the whistle - six holes covered, overblown or halfholed.
* Recorder players try to play ITM, but mess it up with their baroque style background - I have never played anything but ITM on the recorder. The other day someone made me listen to Vivaldi's Recorder Concertos. It was awfull. When I play recorder it does not sound anything like that.
* Recorder players can't keep up - When I play recorder, it feels like I'm possessed. I see my fingers moving, as if they are disconnected from me. I have never felt that a tune is too fast for me. When I practice I often start a tune slowly and speed up as I go along. I stop when my wife says "That's ridiculous, nobody can listen, let alone dance, that fast!"
In all, I think that there can be no REAL arguments against the recorder, except that you will have a hard time if you care what others think of you. The reason it is not generally accepted, is because there are so few great recorder players in ITM. So everybody does what everybody else does and switches over to whistle. Potentially great recorder players switch over to whistle before they can become great. But I shall persevere. I'm just a beginner, but many years from now I will look back at all this and I will most probably say "...I should have learnt the bloody whistle..."
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Shrog
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Bloody hell.. I just cottoned onto this thread now, Shrog.
Sorry to break it to you, but there are in fact session where you live. I should know, 'cos I go to 'em.
Check your mail shortly.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Q
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
How about this argument - they dont sound very nice! No offence inteaded but I'm deffo on Jacks side! If you want to play trad...then learn an instrument that is accepted in trad circles. I personally dont like the sound of recorder in trad - maybe cause I'm not used to it cause it isnt really often that you hear a great recorder player in a session and all. Actually - Ive heard some people who were pretty good on the ole recorder, but I just dont think the sound of a recorder does any justice to the tunes at all.
Of course you can play trad on any instrument - I mean...a bodhran player could play the tamborine in the same style as the bodhran....doesnt mean it is going to sound good.
You had obviously made up your mind about the recorder before posting...so why did you bother??
I worry that your wife says that 'nobody could listen, let alone dance' as fast as you play...thats scary - but obviously a whole nother thread that has been done to death as well
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by bb
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Hey Q! Your a flute player arent you?? Maybe you can convert Shrog to flute!!!
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by bb
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
And don't worry, we'll cure you of the Recorder in no time at all
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Q
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Beebs you're just so pure and trad
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Sorry beebs - cross posting! Re-education protocols will be instituted. Mwuhahahahaha!!
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by Q
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
It's not rude to play the recorder as such, but it's rude to sit and play the tunes if you don't know the music and this is what recorder players generaly do, hence the reputation. But heck, there's loads of whistle players and flute players and fiddle players ect do that too, and that's equally rude.
# Posted on June 8th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Shrog, why don't you learn both recorder *and* the whistle?? If you ever visit a session in Ireland or anywhere else where recorders might be frowned upon, you'll have a back-up plan. I do believe we certainly care about what others think when it comes to the things we are passionate about.
But anyhoo, good luck with the Music Shrog!
Joyce
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by JMH
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Plus if you ever decide to play wooden flute (which to me personally is the meaning of life
) you'll already have the fingering down from learning the whistle....
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by JMH
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I think that's the best approach too.
The first trad tune I ever played was on a recorder, with guitar accompaniment, in a folk club in Port Elizabeth, nearly 10 years ago. This was years before I had even heard about sessions, or the Bothy Band, or the word "fipple". I think the tunes were 'I buried my wife and danced on here grave', and 'Brian Boru's march' - two tunes I'd picked up off the Net somewhere.
I remember I'd tried to learn on a Generation knock-off (yeah, a 'fake' generation) whistle, but it sounded really bad to me at the time, as I was used to the tone of the descant and alto recorders.
When I started playing Irish music properly, oh, I dunno - nearly a year ago now, I guess, it was on a silver clarke whistle. From the beginning the idea was always to graduate to the flute, and the fingering's exactly the same, so that was a plus.
And then when I discovered what a great sound good whistles can get, I became quite fond of whistle playing - it's not something I'll ever drift away from, I think, even now that my flute's here.
In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be ordering new A & F whistles from Mr Dixon next month - every whistle is like a totally different instrument to me, yet the fingering's the same no matter what the key... and it's great training for when I eventually get myself some pipes.
That said, I can still play recorder, and do sometimes, though not Irish!
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's not such a difficult transition to make, and you won't lose your recorder chops... and once you start on the whistle, a multitude of new worlds seem to open up... worlds often associated with the whistle accumulation disorder so well documented over at the Chaffing Nipple
Recorders are part of that, as far as I'm concerned - have you seen the great big bloody bass recorders out there? Must have!
But when I only played recorder... it was just the descant and alto. Funny old world, innit?
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
AFAIK, after the end of the Baroque, the first person in over 150 years to make recorders was Arnold Dolmetsch, somewhere in the first half of the 20th century. If that's so, then they weren't a readily available household instrument until pretty recently. And I've tried some of the old Dolmetschs... he had a lot of rediscovery to do!
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Tish
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder? Conclusion...
In the last 24 hours I have sat down with the recorder and the whistle, and tried to get to the bottom of this. I switched back and forth, recorder, whistle, whistle, recorder, trying to listen to the finer nuances of each instrument.
I had to face a couple of obstacles though: firstly, my recorder is new and in pristine condition, while my whistle is old and "beat up". Secondly, I am inexperienced, not just playing, but listening too. However, I think I have heard enough to make a fairly informed decission:
I was wrong and you are right. The whistle is the right tool for the job, it is the traditional choice, because it does sound better for this style of music. I will always have a special fondness for the recorder, but for ITM I will play the tin whistle.
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Shrog
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
That's still just a personal opinion though. I think recorder could sound great in Irish trad. Especially those big bass ones!
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Don't purify yourself. Keep it untrad...
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
See Dow, us anglo players are very helpful and have a better grip on the real music. We haven't wasted all our brain cells trying to sound like Irish concertina -- because it IS Irish concertina. And we have enough brain cells left over to help out nice fellas like Shrog here. Just think about all the good you could be doing if you picked the right tool for the right job, Dow. Things would seem so much more optimistic and positive, you’d be so much happier too. Come on Dow… Shrog did it… now you do it.
hahahahaha
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
NEVER! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness. I am an EC player, like my father before me.
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Dow, I'll bring you one of the reeeaalllyy big bass ones next time I come to the session and you can try it out if you like >8>) >8>) >8>)
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Tish
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
aw, no fair
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Hahaha Tish I think Beebs would die of a heart attack! I wouldn't mind, I think those things are really cool.
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Can I borrow it for a laugh?
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
What kind do you have, Tish? One of 'em big. square boxy ones?
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Hee hee, we'll wait till Beebs gets back from Willie Week and I'll bring it along so you can wind her up, for sure. Oh, shhhhh, she might be listening...
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Tish
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
No Tish, bring it next week. It's her last session before she goes!
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
I mean this week - this Sunday coming. I hope you can make it. There's supposed to be no footy match this week so it'll be quieter, and quite a few of the musos aren't going to be there so it'll be a smaller session.
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Bummer, Dow, can't get there again until July 4 8>(
Q, no, not one of them, but I'd love to try one, are they the Paetzold ones? I have a Zenon bass in F and a Moeck great bass in C. I fantasise about having a contrabass in F one day but I'd probably need a soapbox to stand on to play it. (The sales blurb for the Moeck one is obviously translated straight from the German and says, "for players with a strong breath". ?8># )
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Tish
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
*drool*
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Hi Shrog
There have been some wonderfully specious analogies in this thread, but Joyce’s mountain bike takes the biscuit.
If you play this music you are part of the tradition, don't let the neo-Irish puritans put you off. The Recorder is accepted in the sessions I attend here in Manchester and I play with real Irish people (actually born there)
One great advantage of the Recorder is that the second octave is not as loud relative to the first as on the whistle, which is one of the reasons I started playing it in my Kaley band, as it's a lot easier to mic-up.
You've also got more ornamentation possibilities on low D, such as GHB patterns.
How are you getting along with the ornamentation? If you’re interested I post some of the ones I use.
668 the neighbour of the Beast.
# Posted on June 9th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Biscuit? sorry Pied, I don't do carbs!
# Posted on June 10th 2004 by JMH
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
It seems to me if one is truly serious about the tradition and is concerned about fitting in, it would be counter productive to learn all of those tunes on recorder when you could do the same amount of work and have them learned on whistle, a more appropriate instrument, and no one will ever look at you funny in a session for playing one.
If you couldn't care less about going with tradition and couldn't care less about funny looks or disapproval, then that's a different story altogether. But it seems that Shrog does care.
# Posted on June 10th 2004 by Andee
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Hey Joyce, I'll take your biscuit, I'm on a *high* carb diet!! And pass me some of that great orange marmalade to slather it up with--the kind you alway get in Irish B&B's...
# Posted on June 10th 2004 by Andee
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Hi Andee, don't worry, when I'm on holiday, I like to eat lots of carbs! Sky's the limit
And I love orange marmlade too! Never a shortage of carbs in the Catskills..hehehe
# Posted on June 10th 2004 by JMH
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Personally, I like the recorder much more than whistle, because it isn't as loud as the whistle in the upper register and it can do any key easily. That being said, I do play whistle, flute, and flageolet as well when the time calls for it, but recorder is the old standby. If you get a wood one, you probably won't get as many looks. From a historical standpoint, I'm sure irish musicians didn't really mind whether they had a "proper" instrument to play ITM, they used what they had.
-Andrew
# Posted on June 10th 2004 by Andrew Plett
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
'neo-Irish Puritans'? *blush* that is the nicest thing anybody has ever said to me...
I'm assuming I was included in that statement...dont tell me it isnt so...please -it would be devastating!
Whoooaa - Dow & Tish...dont be messing -I know you two are just winding me up...you wouldnt really bring a giant recorder into the session - would you!!
# Posted on June 11th 2004 by bb
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
We recently acquired a recorder player in our session here in Virginia. She has made it her business to learn all the tunes and is a joy to be around. That's all that matters to us. Goodness, if we can make room for an African drum (the player covers it with a piece of buckskin or chamois and it sounds just like a bodhran) then we certainly have room for her. God bless the music-makers, whatever they play!
# Posted on June 12th 2004 by Graewulf
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
No, beebs.
I'll bring two of them.
>8>) >8>) >8>)
# Posted on June 12th 2004 by Tish
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Tish pleeease come today and bring a recorder. I want to see Beebs' face when you get it out.
# Posted on June 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
OK, beebs, sorry, sorry, not fair.
I'll bring a crumhorn instead.
# Posted on June 12th 2004 by Tish
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
A shawm would be good.
# Posted on June 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Haven't got one of them, would a soprano rauschpfeiffe do instead?
# Posted on June 12th 2004 by Tish
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Jack is Dow's father!? Whoa! So, like, can you even play concertina with a bionic hand and/or those big black gloves?
# Posted on June 12th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Whu?
# Posted on June 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
These aren't the droids you're looking for.
# Posted on June 12th 2004 by Q
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Have you ever wished you could go back in time and give yourself advice about the future? It has been one and a half years since I started this thread, and although I can't go back and tell myself what to do, I can address others who find this thread and are wondering which choice to make.
Firstly, all the arguments about recorders being non-traditional are rubish. Secondly, whether people will "allow" you to play it or assume you are not good/serious is irelevant. You can play any music you want on any instrument you want.
But my advice to anybody about to undertake the amazing journey of learning irish music is this: As you get to know the music, you will find that you WANT to learn the traditional instrument. Sure, you may get an interesting sound by playing a tune on an electric guitar, or an oboe or trumpet, but the bulk of your repotoir you will want on a traditional instrument. Not because anybody says so, but because the music draws you there.
So, unless you also play classical or other music, don't waste your time with the recorder. Unless you also play rock'n'roll, don't bother with the electric guitar. Learning the music takes a lot of work and time, and every minute you spend on a "weird" instrument is a minute less on the instrument that you will eventually want to play.
I'm not saying you should not have fun and experiment and try all sorts of musical crossovers and so on, but when you are faced with the question of which instrument to choose when you start the journey, pick the more traditional one. The choice you make may not be traditional, but it should be the more traditional amongst you options.
Recorder or whistle? Whistle.
EADGBE or DADGAD? DADGAD.
Bongos or Bodhran? Bodhran.
Forks or spoons? Spoons.
Bangers and Mash? Yes please.
P.S. This is for people starting out. If you've been playing irish music on your instrument for years, I've got no advice for you.
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by Shrog
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
You forgot something on your list there.
English or Anglo concertina? Anglo
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is it rude to play the recorder?
Interesting thread. Of course, the recorder is not a baroque instrument (though current fingering dates from that period). It actually goes back to before the year 400. And any references to a "flute" before the mid 18th century are likely to actually mean the recorder. Today's flute was called--up through the 19th century--the traverse flute. Some say the recorder disappeared during the 19th century, but a recent book shows that this is not at all the case. It was commonly used for playing traditional music--hardly surprising in that the fingering is close to that of the bagpipes. As to playing style, I doubt that many recorder players adopted the classical method. Traditional tunes tend tofall into easy fingering patterns as though they were written for the instrument...and given the age of many, it is probable that a good number actually were!
# Posted on January 26th 2008 by bjdooley