The thread about how much we all want to strangle people who try to learn tunes at a session inspired me to open up this question: Are there instruments that *are* tolerable at a session when politely noodled? I often play my fiddle very quietly during tunes I think are simple enough to pick up in three goes, thinking if I can barely hear it myself I won't be ticking anybody off.
I think if the session has enough volume learning quietly on a fiddle shouldn't be too irritating. I don't think the same applies to whistles, pipes, banjos, and flutes, which don't have the dynamic range to be played discreetly.
So what do we all think? How much noodling is acceptable? In what context? On what instruments? Let's try to be positive here and express what *doesn't* tick us off so all the people who got death threats in the "tactics" thread can learn where the line is if they ever stumble onto this site.
Yes Kerri, the fiddle is one of the few instruments where this is actually possible. If I wanted to pretend to know a tune I could play it on my concertina without pushing the bellows, but I'd rather just sit and listen. Instead of feeling frustrated that I don't know the tune, I focus on how lucky I am to be sitting in the middle of the music instead of being over next to the punters who are ignoring the music and laughing real loud like a pack of inebriated baboons.
What I do is halfway between what the guitars or bazoukis are doing and what the melody players are doing, becoming more like the melody with every pass. I only do it when I've heard a tune enough to know what to expect, or when it's one of those magic tunes that is so much like all the other tunes I know I just have to rearrange a couple bars and *bam* - new tune!
A whistle with a Hoover Whitecap head can be noodled discreetly at a loud session. In fact I have to wear a wide brimmed hat and hold the whistle towards my good ear in order to hear it myself.
ButI do agree that audible noodling is worthy of the death penalty.
If you want to LEARN a tune at a session, surely the best way is to listen to it - not to 'noodle it'. Maybe ask what key it's in if you can't figure that out. You're more likely to get it in your head if you listen to the correct tune rather than your own half-botched take on it.
If you desperately want to PLAY a tune you don't know at a session, just watch an instrument where it's easy and clear to see what notes are being played (banjo or mandolin, say), and just follow their fingers(!) This may make you unpopular if you continually lag behind the beat..... so it's probably best not to.
Hey, I can dig listening too. Most sessions I play during about 35 % of the tunes (last night it was about zero per cent). Of the tunes I play, 80 % are tunes I really know and could play by myself if a passing tornado suddenly sucked everybody else out the window. 10 % are tunes I've heard so many times I have a strong, strong feeling I can get the fingering down in three goes, and 10 % are tunes I don't know, but I'm tipsy and having a good time so I toss in a few chords that follow whatever the guitar is doing. So what does that work out to? Three and a half out of every hundred tunes I fool around a bit, I play an equal number of tunes badly, and 65 out of a hundred I am just listening and drinking my beer. I think that's about right.
ottery, good point about the rhythm. For those who dare to noodle, being out of time with everybody else is a sure way to draw attention to yourself. As for the key, if you can't figure that out, you are probably not ready for noodling.
Kerri, it will be interesting to see if your attitude changes down the road after you tune statistics improve to the point that you know most of the tunes and you're flanked by noodlers. This is a point of great awakening for most players, but the tragedy is that it’s always after the fact.
There's a difference between noodling while everyone else plays the tune three times, and actually picking up the tune, so that by the second time thru you've got most of it and by the third you're playing along with everyone else. Some people are very quick to pick up tunes, but they don't "noodle." The typical approach is:
1) Listen to the whole tune the first time through, without playing a lick yourself. This step gives you time to sort out what key/dominant note carries the tune, and its general shape. You can also i.d. all the stock phrases that you already know. But the main thing you're doing here is listening intently to the melody and letting it sink into your aural memory.
2) Softly play along with the tune on the second go round, stopping completely on the parts that aren't familiar yet. Listen to those parts and try to lilt along under your breath. This differs from 'noodling' because you're either playing the same notes as everyone else, in time, or you're not playing at all.
3)On the third go round, you're playing the whole tune, assuming you've got the unfamiliar bits worked out. The trick at this step is to keep the bits in the right sequence and not forget any unusual intervals. If you don't have the bits worked out, you at least have a serious head start on the tune and have enough of it to keep it in your head for later woodshedding.
This sort of thing is a skill that can be obtained and improved upon with practice. Start with simpler tunes that have phrases already familiar to you. Eventually you'll be able to tackle more complicated tunes without distracting the other players.
Will, yea... I've noticed that "skill" being applied. I have to confess that the fiddler I play with is actually truly skilled at this and is amazing to watch -- when he decides to do it. Most of the time he just listens though. On the other hand, there are far more people who believe they can do this -- but fail. The tragedy is that the latter never seem to choose to just listen.
Agreed, Jack. Even players who are good at this should use a sense of discretion. Besides, you tend to reach a saturation point after picking up 4-6 new tunes in an evening. And a big part of being good at picking up tunes is a lifetime of listening, so that damn few tunes are truly 'new' and unfamiliar.
Your fiddler wouldn't happen to be D.R., would he?
It also makes a difference what sort of mindset the other players are in. This isn't the sort of thing to do at a rollicking, high-energy session with the crack at 90. In general, it's best to learn tunes when it won't slow the momentum, or among old friends who will at least know who to call when notifying your next of kin....
P.S. Obviously, the best way to pick up new tunes is to ask the other players if they mind you taping some sets so you can work them up at home. I've never heard "no" in response to a polite request. And you can practice the same approach to learning the tunes as outlined above, using the tape at home. If you prefer learning tunes off a living, breathing person, just ask. Many of the better players give lessons for a reasonable fee, and many are also always eager to just sit down and swap a few tunes, assumming you'll know some they don't (and it's amazing how often this is the case, even when one player is far less experienced than the other). I remember asking Liz Carroll for the name of a tune during intermission, and before they went back on, she had written the whole tune out on the back of a bar receipt. After the show, we visited some more, and she handed me her fiddle to play her a tune. I played a reel, and she got all excited, "Oh I haven't heard that in years. What is it? What is it?" I gave her fiddle back and she tried to get the reel going but couldn't quite, so I played it again for her. Then, as she was ferreting out more of the tune, I told her the name: "It's The Absent-minded Old Woman." Ba-da-boom. *grin* We both had a good laugh over that.
Point is, even the giants are hapy to learn a tune off a total newby, so there are almost always opportunities to swap a tune or two.
No, it's Kevin Bernhagen, one of Dale's protégés. I sometime make the joke when were gigging at the Plough telling the punters that together, Kevin and I are idiot savant -- he's the savant and I'm the idiot. Kevin's ability to learn tunes on the fly has everyone around here amazed, but he never “noodles”. Here's what he does when he chooses to learn the tune on the fly: He listens the first time through, then, with his fiddle still in his lap he fingers the notes on his fret board silently, then on the third pass he joins in as if he knew the tune all along. I will usually play the tune a couple of more times through for him.
On the other hand, I've never observed Dale doing anything like this. Dale and I have had lengthy discussions about all of these session behaviors in these threads and we totally agree with one another. Both Dale and I have had to relax our expectations out here on the West Coast because there aren't many musos who can resist the temptation to noodle. I cringe every time I overhear my friend Chris K. tell people that noodling on tunes is a regional style of ITM here in California.
Yes it is unfortunately you're right, because people are so dumb and closed-minded they'd rather see someone sitting around looking pretty and holding an Anglo because it's so much "bouncier" than an English, even if that someone isn't playing a tune
Dow wrote, "people are so dumb and closed-minded"... hmmm typical insecure english system player thinking. You really should switch to anglo system Dow -- just to build some self-esteem.
I'm just wondering how and where we should learn tunes. What is the "traditional way"? I would would have thought that picking up tunes from other musicians and swapping them at sessions would be the natural process. Perhaps, this doesn't apply to the modern day pub session but that was the way things were often done in the past.
Of course, I don't think that a session is a place for "beginners" or even many improvers to "learn their instruments" and/or learn tunes, though many treat it as such. You will always learn something new at a session, no matter how experienced you are, but that's not its purpose. However, I see nothing wrong with picking up tunes at a session. I agree that you should listen to it first and don't attempt to play it straight away, especially if it's unfamiliar. You might be able to play it the second or third time round or, maybe, have to go to the session for two or three weeks before it's in your head. The chances are that you've heard the "easier" ones before anyway, even if you can't remember when. In any case, there has to come a time when you take the initial plunge with a tune. Even if you've learned it at home first, it's not always going to be played the same way(if ever)in a session.
I'll just comment on other methods of tune learning. It's not supposed to be the traditional way to learn from "the dots" nor is copying from CDs necessarily the best way. Taping sessions is a fairly new practise. I know they had a few portable "reel to reels" as far back as the sixties but it didn't really catch on until we had the walkman, mini discs, ipods etc. Irish and Scottish music is much older than this. With the exception of beginners, I don't think that the purpose of taking lessons is for learning tunes. Are trying to keep yourself and friends in business, Will?
Having said all this, I learn about 95% of my tunes outwith the session and my tendency is to listen more often than not (if I don't know a tune). I will pick up ideas and the better (usually)tunes will stick in my head and I will play or learn them later on. I certainly wouldn't advocate doing anything to disrupt the session or distract others. As for "noodling", it depends on how subtle you are and your choice of instrument. You can "pluck the fiddle strings" quietly, for instance of sit at the back if it's a big session. Again, it all comes down to good manners in the end.
Like I said, I have learned tunes by just hearing them in a session. The thing is, I was only able to do this because I sat and listened to them being played week after week until they were in my subconscious. Then when I was home going over tunes, the tune would suddenly appear in bits and pieces. I would then pay a little closer attention to the particular tune the next time it showed up in a session and I would make sure what key it's in etc., and eventually I would be able to play along without disrupting the flow of the tune, and without having to guess where the tune's going. This process takes considerable time but I imagine a lot of tunes were learned this way in the middle part of the last century before the advent of portable recording devices.
Before the phenomenon of sessions came around people would get the tunes from one another away from any public performance. Now we have recording devices of all sorts along with CDs and Internet resources galore that allow us to speed up the tune gathering process considerably.
I don’t think picking up tunes at sessions, i.e. learning then on the fly, is necessary or helpful at this point. When you do this you’re taking away rather than adding to the session. There are now many options for learning tunes so there’s no need to inflict your tune learning efforts on people who are just getting together to play and enjoy the music.
Think about it -- have you ever heard anyone say, “Hey, lets get together and play a few tunes while someone else tries to guess what we’re playing and learn our tunes at the same time… won’t that be fun?”
I admit to learning tunes on the fly, but by listening to 4 bars then playing it.
Problem is - if you can play along perfectly with the tune, but you cannot play it yourself, have you actually learnt it? There are tunes I'm not particularly taken with, so have never bothered to learn them, but if someone else plays them, I will still join in.
It does depend on the session, however. Our local session tolerates learning tunes on the fly, as long as it's done discretely and on a small percentage of the evening's tunes. There are several players here who can get a tune by the third or fourth go round without detracting from the fun.
But our session rarely if ever mistakes itself for a performance or talent show. And learning tunes on the fly actually helps set the mood for everyone in the room. It's like saying, "Listen up, the music you're about to hear is *live,* unrehearsed (though well practiced), and unpredictable. We find great joy and magic in that."
Heh, John, I suggested lessons only because some of the better players get asked _a lot_ for help in learning tunes. Most players I know are more than happy to share their tunes and knowledge, but their time is valuable and should not be taken for granted. If you offer to pay for a lesson, they can always turn it down, but at least you've shown that you value their time and respect their expertise. More often than not, players are happy to just do a tune swap--I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours
Well, I think Will had it right the first time -- there's a diff between noodling and learning a tune. Noodlers to me are the infamous Tweetys (to use Brad's term). They think what they're doing IS the tune, or is an acceptable adjunct to it. I never mind people who are learning a tune unless they're doing it way too loud and you can hear them over the actual tune (in other words, pipers, for instance rarely get to "try out" a tune -- safer to learn it at home and bring it next time), but Tweetys make me crazy and send me to the bar.
I always thought "noodlers" were the folks who play around on their instruments between tunes (unfortunately bodhran players are the worst offenders at this). I used to play with a jam that would play the tune 8-10 times, so that by the end everyone had had a chance to pick it up. If someone hadn't, they'd shout, "One more time, I've almost got it!", and we'd go again. It was a very informal jam. In Rochester, NY, we have a "learner's jam" prior to the regular jam every month. Helps sort out the folks who are "not quite ready for prime time." Taping the tunes for learning at home seems the least intrusive way to collect them (except for the people who keep asking "What was the name of that tune?"). I starting playing spoons at jams because I didn't want to just sit there with my instrument in my lap when I didn't know the tune. One thing led to another, & now I play the bodhran almost exclusively.
bravo Will..exactly right, I think. The mood of a session is best when the players are all there for each other, to share in the experience, and no one feels "hmm I'm not good enough to try. i mean even if he/she only hits the one high note in the a part and the two long notes in the B, say, then he has added to the energy. And if there is an audience, well, they are a happy by product of the get together. Sets get tremendous lifts when each time it passes round there are a few more notes in place, a few more instruments included. Remeber that lovely passge in Last Nights Fun where the author talks about himself and his buddies sitting in a sunlit window at three in the afternoon, having had their breakfast, and with their cases at their feet, and one by one they open them and one fellow begins to scratch out a bit of memory,, a musical thread of something he remmebers, then another begins to chase the same forgotton tune, and after 14 passes all four are playing the same melody...
ahh...that all our sessions could be so romantic......
Sitting around after breakfast is a good time to teach each other tunes. At the pub in a session we will sometimes chase tunes in this way, but we still know the tune already. But let's not loose the focus of the thread. It's about people learning the tune on the fly while others are trying to enjoy playing it. I think to do so is rude and inappropriate, but I have the feeling that I'm outnumbered in this forum.
mebbe its qualitative ingredient.......the degree of focus on the part the noodler?
mebbe fov jus used the wrong wor.... Is a noodler someone whois trying to blend in and actually learn the tune? not to my mind....to me a noodler is jus what it sounds like, a wanderer, a jammer, an indisiplined wormy squireely twisty dried up old piece of rice or wheat flour packed into cellophane and designed to be immersed with all his buddies into boiling water, and eaten.
no offence! i jus got a bit carried away, literary-like. I love to noodle, esp in the privacy of my own home......
My definition of “noodling” is someone does who can't resist playing along even when they don't know the tune. They "noodle" out the tune as close as they can and usually fail but feel justified in their cause. They will make lofty claims about their abilities to accomplish this, but will usually let you down when they are actually doing it. I have been playing sessions here in the US (West Coast) for 20 years and there's always at least one it seems. (yes, I too was once guilty of this) When I've attended sessions in Ireland in the middle of winter when all the musical tourists aren't there, I haven't witnessed this sort of behavior amongst the locals. It leads me to conclude that the practice of "noodling" is taking place outside of Ireland. (Except during Festival season when musical tourists are ubiquitous in Ireland and all the locals are in hiding)
well yknow the "can't resist' part could always be taken as a complement. The music is so driving an delicious that the doodler simply cannot control himself.....
I love the disipline of ITM but occasionally pull back from the picture and get a glimpse also of it's restrictions.
It's not about "restrictions" but rather about manners. I had to learn how to resist noodling too, and it wasn't easy. I had people going quiet to see if I knew the tune or not just like what was suggested above, and eventually I realized that my "noodling" was a self indulgent pursuit that needed to be reconsidered. At this point I know what the people around me at the time were going through, and I cringe at the thought. But if there’s an unnecessary restriction here, it isn't on me not to play the tunes I don't know, but rather on everyone else’s ability to enjoy playing the music.
Put the whistle down, step away from the tune and no one will get hurt.
I'm with Will on the lilting idea. You can even lilt internally without annoying anyone and it helps get the tune into your head.
I will also admit to sometimes 'noodling' [never heard the phrase before this discussion!] but quietly so as not to disturb, although I sometimes fail in this and wreck somebody else's tune much to my humiliation and embarrassment! So even though I'm [very rarely] guilty I would suggest that the sess is not the place for this.
I also like the Kerry way of playing tunes about a dozen times round so that it becomes almost zen like and it does certainly help with learning. In our sessions the tune gets played at least three time round but we will keep it going if someone is on the brink and about to fall into the tune.
Yes, that's a good one. Keep an ear out for someone who almost has it, then go through it six or seven times until they get it. Or if there's one elusive bit, show them after the set, and then play the tune again later in the evening. And make sure you play it next week. I like it when people do that for me.
There's two or three subtly different topics being discussed here and some of us are, maybe, at cross purposes. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "noodler". I'll sit and listen if I don't know a tune, although I might "finger" (sounds a bit cheeky) the fret board/fiddle neck etc without actually playing or making a sound. However, if there's a tune that I've heard a few times or sounds quite easy(usually the same thing, though I might not realise it), I will "have a go" at playing. I'm usually successful at this or I wouldn't have taken the risk. If I'm unable do this, I'll stop altogether rather than "fake it". I don't see any problem if a slightly different but sympathetic note is played here and there. This happens quite often anyway as we probably all know different versions of tunes.
It's certainly not my purpose to attend a session to learn tunes---though I might find new tunes to learn or "pick them" up anyway.
There are times that somebody may start a tune and suddenly realise that nobody else knows it. I, for one, am quite grateful if one or more of the better musicians makes an attempt at joining in or provides some backing. This gives me a bit more confidence and I feel less exposed. Of course, those who join in or try "to assist" should be experienced enough to know what they're doing, as you can be "put off" as well. Perhaps, this is the problem. Maybe, it should be a case of "When in doubt, do nowt".
Re passing on and swapping tunes. This depends a lot on the type of session. In "fast and busy" sessions, you don't have time for the likes of this and it will probably disrupt the proceedings. However, in more relaxed situations it is quite possible. A busy and fast session is session is not necessarily full of good or "the best" musicians. Likewise, you'll find excellent and "top rate" musicians in smaller "laid back" sessions. The latter is maybe done "on purpose" and there'll be lots of time for chats,a bit of crack etc, and beers between tunes. How often do you hear musicians saying "I learned this tune from the playing of -------" ? I'm sure they don't always mean from a CD or a walkman recording, although they will, no doubt, learn them this way too.
Hope you don't think I'm being difficult here, Jack and Will. I do agree with the general thrust of your arguments but I don't think the issue can be quite as "black and white" as suggested.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with Jack, If I'm in a Loud, dissapointing sesh and someone plays a tune I know in my head but havent learnt then I'll learn in quietly etc. But if its a lovely session and the tunes are cranking then there is no way I would learn tunes there and then wouldnt even want to, I'd sit back and listen and I'd love it. Sessions arent all about 'me,me, me' Sometimes its even better just to listen to a perfect session....when I know I'm out of my league.
Zina's point on Tweeties is a valid one too we've had many a discussion on that topic and have to say that I just cannot be bothered with people who insist on being ignorant and annoying. There is nothing more dangerous than an ignorant musician in a session..thats when the dreaded 'jam' word comes into it. Stay home, learn the tune, come to a session, play it......
vboyd100 mentioned "restrictions" about Irish Music. I totally agree with Jack that it's about manners and common courtesy. I lived in Japan for 6 months when I was 20 yrs old. But before I flew over, I researched extensively the culture and etiquette that would be expected of me so I wouldn't offend anyone or seem like a total ignorant a$$hole.
Shouldn't this be the same with any type of society that you encounter as a newcomer, such as Irish music sessions? Don't you want to do your homework and understand the do's & don'ts? Why is this so hard for some people to understand?
vboyd100 also mentioned the music being "so delicious that the noodler can't control him/herself?".....If you feel the music is so wonderful then this should give you the motivation to go home and learn these tunes and then come back and play them once you have them down. I always hear tunes I just gotta learn ASAP! But I love and cherish this music so much that I would never just noodle it out at a session. To me this is just having manners and respect for the other players who have worked hard to learn the tune they are playing!
I'm not trying to put vboyd00 on the spot. It's just that we get a lot of folks with her attitude that show up at the session and think its ok to just noodle through every tune. If you consider simple etiquette to be “restrictions” then maybe Irish music is not your scene.
But to be fair to Kerri, I do think if you can noodle so softly that it doesn't interfere than fine. I know a woman who does this so quietly that it's not a problem. But like it's been said above *most* people are not so subtle about it........
Well that's my vent for the day....this site can sometimes be good therapy
It just dawned on me I have some other persepctives to add. Some months ago I asked several dozen well known players in Ireland and the US a series of questions about playing in sessions. One of my queries was whether they ever try to pick up tunes on the fly and it so, did they have any tips for doing it.
Nearly everyone agreed this is difficult to do, and it should only be done if you can figure it out without detracting from the music. Several people suggested something along the lines of my three-step processs above. Only one or two said they flat out don't try to pick up tunes on the fly at sessions.
But these are all top-notch (internationally known) players who would never "noodle" around a tune. Either they know it already and play it, learn it quickly and unobtrusively on the fly, or they relax and enjoy the others playing it.
In short, if "noodling" means aimlessly "improvising" to a tune, I agree--there's no place for that at a good session. If noodling means learning a tune on the fly, then I think a small portion of the musical population is capable and may be justified in doing it, if they can do it unobtrusively (as judged by the other players in the circle), and it fits in the general mood of the session at hand.
Strikes me that you'll know whether you can learn tunes on the fly or not by trying it at home first, with a cd. If you can't do it there, don't try it at your local pub.
I'd also suggest that we're a diverse group here, with a wide range of abilities and experience with the music, and the sessions we each go to probably also cover a wide range of approaches to the music. What's acceptable in some places won't be in others. Personally, I abhor aimless noodling. But I'm okay with learning tunes on the fly when done well and discretely. Mind you, I'm not wild about it, but I won't let some harmless bit of it ruin my fun either.
And another thing (gawd, I'm starting to sound like my dad ....
The other side of this can drive me crazy--when you organize a slow session or a workshop for the express purpose of learning tunes together, and people refuse to play along and pick up the tune. I realize that some folks aren't as quick to pick up tunes on the fly, but they'll never get any better if they don't try. In the beginning, most people end up noodling a bit because they're not accustomed to identifying pitch intervals by ear, so they hunt and peck. But some folks--even otherwise good players--seem so afraid of playing a "wrong" note that they won't play any notes at all.
I was once at a session with great players in attendance where in mid-tune an un-named world-class flute player turned to a internationally known piper who was "picking up a tune on the fly" on a whistle, and he said, "Do you know this tune?" and the piper/whistle player replied, "Not really, but I've heard it before." and the flute player said, "Well could you please stop -- you're putting me off."
World class musos aren't beyond behaving badly either it seems.
I should add to all my previous posts that the sessions I'm talking about aren't inhabited with beginners and aren't considered "slow sessions." As Will points out, people on this list are coming from various types and levels of sessions, and in the context of “slow sessions” or “learning sessions” it might be appropriate to "noodle" or "pick up tunes on the fly." But if you're in a session where people have already learned ITM and want to celebrate it by having a few tunes and drinks together -- this isn't the time to start noodling around to pick up a tune no matter how compelled you might feel to play along.
But Jack, the piper is a prime example of an *instrument* that simply cannot get away with learning a tune on the fly _discretely._ I still say it's okay if you can do it so quietly no one else notices--which is possible on fiddle and banjo (put the pick down and use your right thumb and index to pluck the strings very lightly), tho maybe not on any other instruments.
Yes Will. The fiddle is an exception when used this way. In a previous post I told you how the fiddler I play with learns a tune by the 3rd or 4th pass in this way. He's one of the few I've witnessed to actually succeed at this, and I wouldn’t call it “noodling.” But I think a lot of people are "noodling" for other reasons. They might say they're trying to pick up tunes, but if they were to honestly re-examine why they do it, they might discover that they just don't feel comfortable sitting and listening in a session that’s in full spate. I know this to be true because of my own experience. I had to counsel myself to have the discipline enough not to give in to my impulses. It's not unlike trying to quit smoking or stay on a diet or something.
well, i am speechless....
i guess my noodling days are over!
and I best reflect on my manners too!
Seriously, this was good to stir it up a bit...jmh's insight into respecting the customs of other cultures expression of other is much appreciated.
My little speech about restrictions applied less to the music and more to the customs. Without really being concious of it I think I was reflecting on my visit to ireland in 1975. I spent a year in a small village (pop300), which i won't mention, and although at first i was entralled I later felt quite oppressed by the secrecy and weight of the lifestyle. I do acknowledge however that 1) i was quite young, 2) i was amn outsider 3) i did not at that time have any grasp of the music...
perhaps my griping is a bit of a love/hate thing.. love thy jailer or whatever.. What i mean to say is I am so entranced by this gtg ..
Oh well, Jack, I'm not above giving someone a sharp look if their noodling is putting me off, though they'd have to really be making a nuisance of themselves for me to actually say something. (But especially when they've proven themselves either ignorant or uncaring of that particular session's etiquette.) If I'm behaving badly by doing so, too bad, is the way I'm afraid I look at it -- especially since if I'm doing something at a session that bothers another player, I'd rather they let me know than sticking the knife behind my back where it doesn't do me any good.
Ah, last night's fun -- story time! We had a visitor to our little session, a rather drunken woman who charged up onto the rather small and confined area where we were playing away and shouted, "Where do I sit! Where do I sit!" in the middle of a tune; she threw herself at a chair in the circle as players hurriedly got out of her way, a couple of them standing up and shipping themselves over to the other side of the circle with all haste mid-tune without missing very many beats.
She then clapped all out of time, talked loudly through a couple of tunes, and asked all kinds of questions of the player next to her who was trying to listen to the tunes being played but who was nice enough to answer her questions and help her clap in time.
I escaped to the bar briefly to get a soda water; the bartender told me to let her know if the woman was getting out of hand. While I was talking to someone else, I started feeling guilty about abandoning everyone else to the woman, and finally dragged myself back up and sat down to play.
When we'd ended a jig set and launched into a set of reels, our visitor got up to dance wildly in the middle of the circle (possibly thinking to emulate John's daughter Emma, who had danced a few steps for us in the middle of the circle earlier in the evening), careening dangerously close to various musicians who ducked and covered as best possible, at which point the flute player had had enough (possibly because her banjo in it's stand was in imminent danger of tramplement) and she flung out a hand and shouted out, "No. No! There will be NO dancing! NONE. NO." and the set ground to an immediate halt. Once the woman had sat back down, we started the tune again, and the woman shortly went back to her husband at the end of the bar.
It's never fun while it's happening, but you have to love getting such great fodder for session stories!
oh.. sorry.. i had to leave quickly..
so, much later I found out that the reason i felt "oppressed" in that village was merely that I was precieved as a yuong woman travelling around alone etc.. (and no, I was not behaving wantonly)
but of course all cultures have their restrictions so its a moot point regarding the "restrictions" that may be found in session playing..as I was saying about the love/hate thing......I feel i learn so much in playing fiddle music because it is so tight and demanding, and I keep wanting more of that, and with every new tune I learn some new technique, my ears sharpen, my rythem improves.. so I love it but i also feel trapped by it sometimes. uh.. i think I have been bewitched and enchanted...
i have been playing it a long time (25) years but I also leave it for years at a time..
anyway, honest, i don't noodle, but I do lift whenever i can, and I know for certain that by getting involved with tunes on the fly I am supporting the player, cause I can feel it and they often nod to me after, or come over to chat during a break or whatever
thx for the description of Kerry style sessions, sounds wonderful and supportive..
my pet peeve is players that intententionally put little two or four (or eight) bar endings on their tunes, or sets, thus shutting them down. Fine for performance but not sessions I think
anyway thx all, and hope you had fun jumping on me! It's all good..
oh yeah, that lady has been to our bar too. Actually I was the one who invited her into the circle, but i didnt realize quite how powerfu lshe could be.. guess she gets around. No dancing no no .. haaaa, funny
Noodling - Just say "NO".
There is no compulsion to be playing all the time. It is perfectly acceptable to sit and listen. I sometimes even sit out tunes I know how to play if I am particularly enjoying someone else's rendition.
Ronnie, (vboyd) you have to distinguish what session style you're referring to with your pet peeve. If it's a free-for-all read-my mind-what-the-next-tune-is affair -- then I can understand. But there are other session styles too. In our circle we generally follow whoever started the first tune, and if they do a 3-blind-mice ending, they're letting us know that's the last tune they had in mind. If someone starts up another tune it's considered a hijacking. There are always exceptions and it's not a hard fast rule, but normally we just follow along.
I prefer the style that takes it a bit further, where the person starting the tune plays a little snippet of each tune they intend to play first so that we can make the changes with them. Then they start the tune with everyone aware of the medley coming. The guitar player (if there is one) also benefits because he knows what key changes are coming. We all play together from start to finish like we're all on a roller-coaster ride together, and we all end together. It's great fun I think. It doesn't mean every set has to be like that, but if the tune starter wants it to be -- whoopee!
I never mind very much if someone picks up at the end of a set, but some people mind it very much. I personally think it's best to catch the eye of the person who started a set and raise an eyebrow sometime in the last repeat of the last part of the last tune they mentioned (if they did so at all). If they shake their head, then the set stops. If they pass the set to you with a shrug or a toss of the chin, it's your turn to start a tune. If they don't react, either they'll start another tune or end the set, and it's usually considered polite to let them make that decision.
But every session will be different. Even in Kerry.
At the Plough the publican will sometimes subject the international stars from Ireland to the local ITM enthusiasts by having them guest host a session. In the early days before we gained any awareness of the different session styles that exist we were always dismayed by how the guest hosts always seemed to end up sitting at the bar for most of the evening. Later, when some of us wised up a bit and we were capable of following the lead of our guest hosts, they played tunes with us all night. At least until some clue less eejit would show up and start the free-for-all- thing up. Then I would join our guest host at the bar *sigh*
Rule one: If yer picking the tune, make sure you don't noodle it.
otherwise, noodle your whistle like a fife (transverse). you can get the fingering down by watching the whistler/flautist across the room and all you hear is a 'hissy-whistle' in your (right) ear. while this may annoy the person directly to your right, no-one else can hear it, and you can figure the tune out relatively anonymously.
I confess, I've noodled out a tune or two in session, and then be complimented later for knowing the tune so well...go figure...
another thought...I like the idea of listening before ya start playing full blast, but just listening can lull myself into hiding. I can find myself feeling to afraid to try. My middle ground is often to play harmonies(luckily this comes pretty easy to me).This keeps me focused and in the game without being disruptive.
I'd watch that last -- in a more purist session, you might feel like you're not being disruptive playing harmonies, but other people might. Of course, for other sessions where that sort of thing is welcome, it's not a problem, but you'd better know which sort you're in before you try it.
The mandolin is a godsend to the noodler. Play all your notes on the beat and nobody can tell you don't know the tune. I've been doing it for years - and some people actually think I can play.
At our Sunday session things tend to get informal with tunes from all over. I have found one frightening consequence of "noodling" to tunes I don't know on the concertina. Bob the banjo player is quite likely to say "concertina solo" leaving me like a deer in the headlights!
But crazy, this is exactly what we've been discussing. Maybe it's ok to do that in your session in Florida, but it might not go down well in sessions you encounter elsewhere. Be careful about the standards that you adapt on your home turf, they might be out of sync with standards set in places where the music has a stronger base.
good stuff guys,, no,not the whiskey, but the idea that different sessions have different styles and signs, eyebrows, ears, cadences, whatever,,thx.
Im glad when these discussions go on and on trying to get to the point.. some real gems of knowledge leak out..Yeah i would like to be at one of those sessions where the leader of the set givesa little foretaste of the tunes he has in mind.. the transitions must be pretty uplifting, invigorating
oohh i just wanted to speak to crazy's insight that sometimes "sitting an listening can lull a person" I really think this is true, can and does happen..Having to "wait" can wreak havoc on a new player. They can get frozen,feel out of it, be unready, shy, be rendered incapable, all kinds of energy that simply is not beneficial, wheras a bit of noodling, just keeping the fingers in contact with the instrument and staying with the rythem is enough to keep the somewhat shyer player feeling in the groove, at the starting blocks.....
I was thinking last night about the aulde singing tradition, particalarly in the English pubs, I believe. There EVERYONE could, and did, join in....ahh..but i digress, I am noodling far off the point..
I'll address the issue of shy players and session styles. One thing that's frustrating for shy players is starting a tune and then when it comes time to change to the next tune -- everyone stops to see what tune the person had in mind is next. This suddenly puts the shy player on the spot and the medley experiences a meltdown and embarrasses the shy player. If you were able to play a snippet of each tune so that the others knew what you intended to play, they could help you with the change. When I tried to instigate this concept at sessions I was hosting I found that the shy players appreciated the idea for that reason. The people that didn’t like that session style were the same ones who had a tendency to hijack medleys.
What's all the fuss about noodling? I noodle songs all the time in our weekly jam. I do harmonies on the fly as well. Sometimes the other musicians glance at me, and I just know they're thinking "how does he do that?", but little do they know I'm only doing it because I don't know the tune.
Eeekk - can I join you two at the bar please? Dow is noodling in my left ear and there is a hissy sorta noise coming from the direction of my right side. Sigh. No matter how many times we go through the things people should and shouldnt do at a session I always feel deflated. There really are some pearls of wisdom on this site but somehow alot of it just gets ignored. Oh well.... Willie Clancy week in 3 weeks and 4 days!
I was always brought up to believe that the session is the best training ground for a musician and that's the place to learn and swap tunes. Sessions are not concerts and places to show off ... they are a gathering of friends to play music and enjoy the craic. The music is there to be enjoyed by ALL whatever ones's ability to play and the better musicians should encourage and help the weaker ones. But I am of the old school and maybe things have changed these days for the worse however NOT in the sessions I play in.
Um, I dont think anyone really meant it like that Bernie. Some people enjoy sessions no matter how good they are or what the craic is like. I have *no* problems whatsoever with anybody joining in on the sessions I play at. Having said that - its just good manners not to noodle and wreck it for other people. There are alot of different types of musicians. There are those that play almost every night at home learning new tunes etc and there are those who think its great craic to play tunes in sessions who dont really practice etc. And obviously alot in between. But as a person who sits down night after night to learn tunes etc I dont find it that appealing being in session where people irritate me. I dont think that is mean and I dont think its being unsupportive. We have alot of musicaians who come to our session of all levels and we all have mighty craic and the reason for this mighty craic is because no matter everbodys level etc - noone is annoying. Thankfully!
A session is to learn. Of course it is. But *never* at the expense of other musicians.
BB there are some pearls of wisdom and some whirls of p**sdom. I reckon you're gonna hear a whole lot of noodling at some of the sessions at WC Week, but generally that's the point. It's a learning experience. For anyone who cares to hear it, my opinion is that if you're a beginner you shouldn't noodle at a session, and if you're an experienced player you should know better. Of course this doesn't apply to me since, with my 400 or so years of experience, I know when it's alright!
I wish you lot would stop fussing, you obviously don't know what jams are all about. Everyone should be included no matter what your colour or creed - it's all about the songs. If you don't know the song, it's cool to try out a funky harmony instead. Everyone will thank you for jazzing the song up a bit for them.
well, i agree actually...it's like a big plate of chinese food in the middle of the table, and everyone reaches with their chopsticks...to pen a instantly classic accurate and illuminating .. umm metephor? homonym? simile?
anyway.. Balance balance,,,
usually the guitar hackers dont bother me that much. The perople who are "on" generally are able to dreown out the ones who are discombobulatedly unfamiliar...
but y'know i do see the point: IF there are only a few "on" players and mweanwhile crowds of enthusiastic jammers descend on the group,, i think the trick here would be to ..hhahaah.. secretly meet in a new venue, kinda like underground politics...you could have passwords an stuff...
I don't think Bernie is grasping exactly the issue we're discussing because I'm having a wee bit of trouble visualizing Bernie's session at Pepper's Bar having noodlers noodling around with reckless abandon in such a setting as that. I can't get my head around the idea of anyone coming in and sitting down next to someone like P. J. Hayes (RIP) and commence noodling tunes they hardly know. It was sessions around Clare that I learned my own session manners, and I never witnessed any such behavior as that. And anything that came remotely close was promptly, but discreetly, frowned upon. I have seen people at all levels of musicianship join in at these sessions, (as they should,) but I’ve never seen them display any bad manners like that.
Okay, sessions then, whatever. I still think it's not important to know the song. I mean, someone else is bound to know it so you can leave it to them and that leaves you the space to improvise cool stuff. Noodle on! And play louder so we can hear those lovely harmonies!
You know Mark, someone is going to take you seriously, and I really hope that they're sitting next to you at your next session and you won't have Beebs there to shout them down for you. *grin*
I love to play harmonies on songs when I'm familiar with them, the singer doesn't mind, and it seems called for, but on the tunes, I just play the melody -- otherwise it gets too cacophonous.
Bernie, thanks for your input. You seem to be one of the few who actually got the point of my original post. vboyd, you're right that I probably chose the wrong word. Nevertheless, whether you call it noodling or picking up a tune on the fly or "spoiling things for everybody else", I still feel strongly that learning a few tunes at sessions is a valuable element of my learning process. It helps train the ear as a tool, both for getting tunes into your head and for blending unobtrusively with the rest of the players and not fall to pieces when you get a little lost - which happens to everybody, I think, even with tunes we know inside and out.
Clearly, you shouldn't try it at Jack's session, but I think anywhere else I've been (including Ireland) it's pretty much OK, as long as:
a) the other players can't hear you over the melody
b) there are at least four other instruments playing the tune properly
c) you know and can play in the key/s the tune is in
d) you have heard the tune several times before
e) the people you are playing with are your friends
f) you listen closely the first time through
g) you make a sincere effort to play the tune itself and not some random plinkety plonk that you think fits nicely with it.
* h) there is some kind of backing instrument playing
i) you don't play the great highland bagpipes, ocarina, or shakey egg.
(* the absence of a guitar, bodhran or bazouki is a pretty good indicator that you have stumbled upon purists who will not appreciate noodlage. It also leaves the would-be-noodler without the option of blending in with the guitars when you lose the flutes and pipes).
I personally wouldn't want to be at a session that the players describe as a "public performance" (as in "Before the phenomenon of sessions came around people would get the tunes from one another away from any public performance" - sorry to pick on you Jack).
Lots of things annoy me more than fiddlers picking up tunes on the fly. ie: people hearing the first note of a tune, thinking it's some other tune they know and blasting into it full steam *without using their ears*, which could easily tell them they flubbed up and should stop playing. Also, people hearing a tune they know played in a different key and playing the first couple bars in THEIR key anyway - again an ear failure. Speeding things up, slowing things down, drowning out the player who started the set, ignoring differences in the way somebody else plays a tune some night and not bothering to try to assimilate because that's not the way they play it on the CD you learned it from...
All of these things can be directy linked to not making an effort, while playing with living breathing people, to teach your ears, fingers, and brain to work together.
By the way, Turpy, Bob's the last guy on earth you should take sh*t from about noodling!
Apologies for the absurdly long post, and also for making it longer with this sub-post, and also for abandonning my own thread for so long I felt I needed to reply to everybody all at once with a novella.
Apologies to the pious for temporarily changing my user name to "god". I only did it to crack a joke on another thread. I promise I'll change it back before the smiting begins.
I think you answered your own question in the middle paragraph of your first post But be prepared for gentle slagging sometimes e.g. I (a fiddle player) have been told to stop noodling by a *guitarist*. Harumph
Kerri, when did I say a session was a "public performance"? I don’t believe I said that anywhere. I don't mind you picking on me, but please don't put words in my mouth or misrepresent my assertions. It’s interesting that you think Bernie was the only one who “got it” considering more than one of us had the impression he was missing the gist of the discussion. Also, Bernie insinuates that by asking people not to noodle around when they don't know the tune somehow means we’re "showing off.” I don’t quite understand how that works… could someone explain this please? Other than that I agree with everything Bernie said. I don't think he was trying to say that sessions are where you can noodle around when you don't know the tune and annoy people next to you. I think he was just talking about what we all love to do at sessions -- share the music. I think that's the common thread with all of us here who advocate having good manners when you join a session.
Yeah - I know Conan, Ive been to WC twice before. Sometimes its great to be in a mad session just for the sociable craic and pints...not too often tho. So I dont really mind if its only a few at WC
Kerri, I think I didnt get the meaning of your post properly. I'd never heared the term 'noodling' until Will wrote it here one time and I thought it meant messing around with tunes, chords, harmonys, just generally mucking about. Big 'no no' on the other hand, I know a few people who are good enough to pick up tunes on the fly and make it sound like theyve been doing it forever. That is absolutley fine. Problem is I think some people actually think they can do it and they cant....anyhow - Good thread!
I wasn't imlying that asking someone not to noodle is showing off. I merely pointed out that sessions are not the place to show off.
P.Joe actually encouraged people to play along and learn tunes they don,t know .. (discretely of course) and it was done all the time in Peppers and other places.
Listen carefully the first time round.
Finger the tune the second and then put a bow on it the third time. Often the tune would be played more than three times if it was obvious someone was trying to pick it up. Will pointed this out earlier. Just as a point of interest P. Joe once gave out to me in no uncertain terms when he caught me jotting down the notes of a phrase I was having difficulty with. He strongly believed the only way to learn is by ear in the session.
Yes, it's this "improvisation" that I can't be bothered with either. People who "can't resist playing" whether they know a tune or not and think they can play around it. You'll even get some players who do this with tunes they know because they're either bored with them the way are or to "show off". I know a fiddler who does this and can be very distracting. By the way, I'm not talking about ornamentations here but deliberating introducing so many unecessary variations etc so that the original tune can sometimes be almost unrecognisable.
Oh don't be so stick-in-the-mud John. I think we need to play these songs a little more loosely and permit ourselves to let our hair down once in a while, treat it like jazz and play about with the melodies. If you do this loud enough and look confident enough when you're doing it, play with flair and pizzaz, people will stop playing and watch you in amazement, thinking "wow, cool, this person can really make this music sound new and creative". Trust me, I've done it before. This isn't showing off mind you, it's just enjoying the songs, and making them more interesting for other people in the process. Let's face it there's too many of these dang songs anyways. Why bother sitting down to learn them all when you can have more fun improvising cool stuff?
Dow, I just saw the first part of your post in the "New Comments" and hadn't realised it was yourself. And I was all ready for a fight too. Phew. That's a relief.
Tunes, saawngs, they're the same thing. That melody should sound just like it's being sung by a human voice, whatever the instrument it's played on - banjo, fiddle, bodhran - make 'em sing. Except if it's an Anglo concertina, in which case you can just leave it at home
So what have we learned here? Bernie's insight is very good, but it still doesn't justify any "noodling" to get the tune, but rather a very discreet approach to learning tunes by ear without resorting to dots or recording devices. This approach probably works better on some instruments than on others, and I think it would only be practical in a situation where there are enough people playing the tune who know it well. Also, it would have to be approached very carefully so as not to interrupt the flow of the tune and the fun that the people playing it are having.
Maybe the session at Peppers is more relaxed than some of the ones I attended in Ennis. I didn’t see anyone attempting to learn tunes in this manner and I couldn’t even imagine trying to myself. So again – it comes down to different session styles. The bottom line is that you should try to get an idea of what the style is before you decide to join in, no matter what country you’re in.
And finally, we learned that Mark (Dow) has buttons on his concertina that produce lyrics so he can sing on the “songs.” Not only that, but he thinks ITM is jazz, he has long hair hanging down all over the shop, and his musical cohorts have weird names like “Flair” and “Pizzaz.” hahahaha
Jack, you wrote the line I quoted on Sunday, May 30, just under John's longish post wondering what the traditional way to get tunes is, pretty close to the top.
Anyway, because I came here to chat a lot before I went to hot sessions, I never used to touch my fiddle during a tune I didn't know, because it's evil and bad and everyone would hate me and b*tch about me later on the forum. Then a friend of mine started giving me the nod during a set of polkas, and I thought "What the heck is he doing? I don't know any polkas." But he kept on nodding, pointedly gazing at my fiddle, and sometimes kicking me in the foot. So I thought, well, he's a purist so he oughta know, I picked up my fiddle and I tried out the tune. I had absolutely no trouble whatsoever picking up that tune plus the next four after hearing them once through. I still don't think I "know" any polkas. I mean, I never learned one on purpose (although I'm thinking about learning the Tolka) but I can play a simple polka at a moderate tempo after hearing it once or twice. I'm grateful to Pat for making me aware of this by encouraging me to try it at a session. Assuming that's what all the kicking, nodding and staring was about. Maybe he really wanted me to snap it in two and I took it the wrong way.
The quote: "Before the phenomenon of sessions came around people would get the tunes from one another away from any public performance." I'm not saying that sessions are by definition a "public performance" but rather that they happen in public where anyone can hear them and you don't have to be at someone's house. The context of the discussion at that point was how one “picks up tunes” and what it might have been like before recording devices were abundant. The use of the word "performance" is NOT referring to stage and screen, but rather to the execution of a task. For example one might say, "He performed his obligations dutifully." and you wouldn't be talking about a staged show.
I agree with you about polkas, Kerri, they are the easiest tunes to pick up “on the fly” and at dances Dale has given me the same nod you got from Pat. Dale has more confidence in my ability than I do. But if I started noodling on every tune Dale played that I didn’t know – I might be introduced to the business end of his bow up side my head.
LOL -- the three overriding rules of etiquette are:
For the guest: Do your best to fit in to the norms of the society of your host.
For the hosts: Do your best to re-frame the norms of your society around that of your guest.
For everybody: Be ready to forgive any lapses by anybody -- assumption of best intentions usually meets expectations.
If all parties try to meet these rules, you end up with good manners.
Jack, it's true one shouldn't be doing this all night long. If I tried, I think my brain would explode. I can absorb an absolute maximum of three tunes (besides polkas) per night this way, and all the conditions I listed in my big fat honkin ridiculously long post above still need to be met, especially the one about having heard the tune several times before.
I sat in on a 'session' up in Nova Scotia (Bai Sainte Marie) where I was the only whistler in a room of guitars, mandos, one banjo and two fiddles. They started in on a tune I knew 'most of' but not 'all of'. so I tinkered a bit getting it down. Looking up at the end of a phrase, I happened to catch the lead fiddlers eye, he ended the phrase with a nod to me...now I had the lead. Damn the noodling, full speed ahead. I got thru it alright, but it did reinforce what Fiddler on Vermouth was getting at. If you don't take a stab, you'll never learn the tunes. I could have sat back all evening and bugged the mando player by saying "what was that one?" then writing the tunes down and figuring them out later. It was much for fun for me, and also for the fiddlers, to vamp the melody back and forth.
I think it all depends on what kind of session it is. Sounds like that one worked just fine for noodlin, but it might not go over as well in other sessions. You just have to use your noodle and figure it out I guess.
The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
The thread about how much we all want to strangle people who try to learn tunes at a session inspired me to open up this question: Are there instruments that *are* tolerable at a session when politely noodled? I often play my fiddle very quietly during tunes I think are simple enough to pick up in three goes, thinking if I can barely hear it myself I won't be ticking anybody off.
I think if the session has enough volume learning quietly on a fiddle shouldn't be too irritating. I don't think the same applies to whistles, pipes, banjos, and flutes, which don't have the dynamic range to be played discreetly.
So what do we all think? How much noodling is acceptable? In what context? On what instruments? Let's try to be positive here and express what *doesn't* tick us off so all the people who got death threats in the "tactics" thread can learn where the line is if they ever stumble onto this site.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Yes Kerri, the fiddle is one of the few instruments where this is actually possible. If I wanted to pretend to know a tune I could play it on my concertina without pushing the bellows, but I'd rather just sit and listen. Instead of feeling frustrated that I don't know the tune, I focus on how lucky I am to be sitting in the middle of the music instead of being over next to the punters who are ignoring the music and laughing real loud like a pack of inebriated baboons.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
What I do is halfway between what the guitars or bazoukis are doing and what the melody players are doing, becoming more like the melody with every pass. I only do it when I've heard a tune enough to know what to expect, or when it's one of those magic tunes that is so much like all the other tunes I know I just have to rearrange a couple bars and *bam* - new tune!
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Then there's still the option of just enjoying the music too you know. It's very relaxing... try it sometime
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
A whistle with a Hoover Whitecap head can be noodled discreetly at a loud session. In fact I have to wear a wide brimmed hat and hold the whistle towards my good ear in order to hear it myself.
ButI do agree that audible noodling is worthy of the death penalty.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by whitmores75087
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling" (or) The Emperor's New Clothes
Might be a more fitting title for this thread.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
If you want to LEARN a tune at a session, surely the best way is to listen to it - not to 'noodle it'. Maybe ask what key it's in if you can't figure that out. You're more likely to get it in your head if you listen to the correct tune rather than your own half-botched take on it.
If you desperately want to PLAY a tune you don't know at a session, just watch an instrument where it's easy and clear to see what notes are being played (banjo or mandolin, say), and just follow their fingers(!) This may make you unpopular if you continually lag behind the beat..... so it's probably best not to.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Ottery
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Ottery, I take my wide-brimmed hat off to you. Here here.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Hey, I can dig listening too. Most sessions I play during about 35 % of the tunes (last night it was about zero per cent). Of the tunes I play, 80 % are tunes I really know and could play by myself if a passing tornado suddenly sucked everybody else out the window. 10 % are tunes I've heard so many times I have a strong, strong feeling I can get the fingering down in three goes, and 10 % are tunes I don't know, but I'm tipsy and having a good time so I toss in a few chords that follow whatever the guitar is doing. So what does that work out to? Three and a half out of every hundred tunes I fool around a bit, I play an equal number of tunes badly, and 65 out of a hundred I am just listening and drinking my beer. I think that's about right.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
ottery, good point about the rhythm. For those who dare to noodle, being out of time with everybody else is a sure way to draw attention to yourself. As for the key, if you can't figure that out, you are probably not ready for noodling.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Kerri, it will be interesting to see if your attitude changes down the road after you tune statistics improve to the point that you know most of the tunes and you're flanked by noodlers. This is a point of great awakening for most players, but the tragedy is that it’s always after the fact.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
There's a difference between noodling while everyone else plays the tune three times, and actually picking up the tune, so that by the second time thru you've got most of it and by the third you're playing along with everyone else. Some people are very quick to pick up tunes, but they don't "noodle." The typical approach is:
1) Listen to the whole tune the first time through, without playing a lick yourself. This step gives you time to sort out what key/dominant note carries the tune, and its general shape. You can also i.d. all the stock phrases that you already know. But the main thing you're doing here is listening intently to the melody and letting it sink into your aural memory.
2) Softly play along with the tune on the second go round, stopping completely on the parts that aren't familiar yet. Listen to those parts and try to lilt along under your breath. This differs from 'noodling' because you're either playing the same notes as everyone else, in time, or you're not playing at all.
3)On the third go round, you're playing the whole tune, assuming you've got the unfamiliar bits worked out. The trick at this step is to keep the bits in the right sequence and not forget any unusual intervals. If you don't have the bits worked out, you at least have a serious head start on the tune and have enough of it to keep it in your head for later woodshedding.
This sort of thing is a skill that can be obtained and improved upon with practice. Start with simpler tunes that have phrases already familiar to you. Eventually you'll be able to tackle more complicated tunes without distracting the other players.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Will, yea... I've noticed that "skill" being applied. I have to confess that the fiddler I play with is actually truly skilled at this and is amazing to watch -- when he decides to do it. Most of the time he just listens though. On the other hand, there are far more people who believe they can do this -- but fail. The tragedy is that the latter never seem to choose to just listen.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Agreed, Jack. Even players who are good at this should use a sense of discretion. Besides, you tend to reach a saturation point after picking up 4-6 new tunes in an evening. And a big part of being good at picking up tunes is a lifetime of listening, so that damn few tunes are truly 'new' and unfamiliar.
Your fiddler wouldn't happen to be D.R., would he?
It also makes a difference what sort of mindset the other players are in. This isn't the sort of thing to do at a rollicking, high-energy session with the crack at 90. In general, it's best to learn tunes when it won't slow the momentum, or among old friends who will at least know who to call when notifying your next of kin....
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
P.S. Obviously, the best way to pick up new tunes is to ask the other players if they mind you taping some sets so you can work them up at home. I've never heard "no" in response to a polite request. And you can practice the same approach to learning the tunes as outlined above, using the tape at home. If you prefer learning tunes off a living, breathing person, just ask. Many of the better players give lessons for a reasonable fee, and many are also always eager to just sit down and swap a few tunes, assumming you'll know some they don't (and it's amazing how often this is the case, even when one player is far less experienced than the other). I remember asking Liz Carroll for the name of a tune during intermission, and before they went back on, she had written the whole tune out on the back of a bar receipt. After the show, we visited some more, and she handed me her fiddle to play her a tune. I played a reel, and she got all excited, "Oh I haven't heard that in years. What is it? What is it?" I gave her fiddle back and she tried to get the reel going but couldn't quite, so I played it again for her. Then, as she was ferreting out more of the tune, I told her the name: "It's The Absent-minded Old Woman." Ba-da-boom. *grin* We both had a good laugh over that.
Point is, even the giants are hapy to learn a tune off a total newby, so there are almost always opportunities to swap a tune or two.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
No, it's Kevin Bernhagen, one of Dale's protégés. I sometime make the joke when were gigging at the Plough telling the punters that together, Kevin and I are idiot savant -- he's the savant and I'm the idiot. Kevin's ability to learn tunes on the fly has everyone around here amazed, but he never “noodles”. Here's what he does when he chooses to learn the tune on the fly: He listens the first time through, then, with his fiddle still in his lap he fingers the notes on his fret board silently, then on the third pass he joins in as if he knew the tune all along. I will usually play the tune a couple of more times through for him.
On the other hand, I've never observed Dale doing anything like this. Dale and I have had lengthy discussions about all of these session behaviors in these threads and we totally agree with one another. Both Dale and I have had to relax our expectations out here on the West Coast because there aren't many musos who can resist the temptation to noodle. I cringe every time I overhear my friend Chris K. tell people that noodling on tunes is a regional style of ITM here in California.
Oh the humanity!
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Yep... Liz is a genuine sweetheart. I hope you have the bar receipt framed and hanging on the wall, Will.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
a true nuggett jack , thx: "First pass listens, 2nd pass fingers, third pass plays (perfectly)" i will aspire to be able do this when i am 95..
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
vboyd, why wait till your 95 to aspire to do this? Start working on it now.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Jack said: "if I wanted to pretend to know a tune I could play it on my concertina without pushing the bellows". That's for the best if you play Anglo
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Right Dow, but it's still better than pretending to play ITM on an english system concertina.
hahahahahahaha
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Yes it is unfortunately you're right, because people are so dumb and closed-minded they'd rather see someone sitting around looking pretty and holding an Anglo because it's so much "bouncier" than an English, even if that someone isn't playing a tune
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Dow wrote, "people are so dumb and closed-minded"... hmmm typical insecure english system player thinking. You really should switch to anglo system Dow -- just to build some self-esteem.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
ok ok I will (be) do(ing) this when i am 95 years old
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I'm just wondering how and where we should learn tunes. What is the "traditional way"? I would would have thought that picking up tunes from other musicians and swapping them at sessions would be the natural process. Perhaps, this doesn't apply to the modern day pub session but that was the way things were often done in the past.
Of course, I don't think that a session is a place for "beginners" or even many improvers to "learn their instruments" and/or learn tunes, though many treat it as such. You will always learn something new at a session, no matter how experienced you are, but that's not its purpose. However, I see nothing wrong with picking up tunes at a session. I agree that you should listen to it first and don't attempt to play it straight away, especially if it's unfamiliar. You might be able to play it the second or third time round or, maybe, have to go to the session for two or three weeks before it's in your head. The chances are that you've heard the "easier" ones before anyway, even if you can't remember when. In any case, there has to come a time when you take the initial plunge with a tune. Even if you've learned it at home first, it's not always going to be played the same way(if ever)in a session.
I'll just comment on other methods of tune learning. It's not supposed to be the traditional way to learn from "the dots" nor is copying from CDs necessarily the best way. Taping sessions is a fairly new practise. I know they had a few portable "reel to reels" as far back as the sixties but it didn't really catch on until we had the walkman, mini discs, ipods etc. Irish and Scottish music is much older than this. With the exception of beginners, I don't think that the purpose of taking lessons is for learning tunes. Are trying to keep yourself and friends in business, Will?
Having said all this, I learn about 95% of my tunes outwith the session and my tendency is to listen more often than not (if I don't know a tune). I will pick up ideas and the better (usually)tunes will stick in my head and I will play or learn them later on. I certainly wouldn't advocate doing anything to disrupt the session or distract others. As for "noodling", it depends on how subtle you are and your choice of instrument. You can "pluck the fiddle strings" quietly, for instance of sit at the back if it's a big session. Again, it all comes down to good manners in the end.
John
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Like I said, I have learned tunes by just hearing them in a session. The thing is, I was only able to do this because I sat and listened to them being played week after week until they were in my subconscious. Then when I was home going over tunes, the tune would suddenly appear in bits and pieces. I would then pay a little closer attention to the particular tune the next time it showed up in a session and I would make sure what key it's in etc., and eventually I would be able to play along without disrupting the flow of the tune, and without having to guess where the tune's going. This process takes considerable time but I imagine a lot of tunes were learned this way in the middle part of the last century before the advent of portable recording devices.
Before the phenomenon of sessions came around people would get the tunes from one another away from any public performance. Now we have recording devices of all sorts along with CDs and Internet resources galore that allow us to speed up the tune gathering process considerably.
I don’t think picking up tunes at sessions, i.e. learning then on the fly, is necessary or helpful at this point. When you do this you’re taking away rather than adding to the session. There are now many options for learning tunes so there’s no need to inflict your tune learning efforts on people who are just getting together to play and enjoy the music.
Think about it -- have you ever heard anyone say, “Hey, lets get together and play a few tunes while someone else tries to guess what we’re playing and learn our tunes at the same time… won’t that be fun?”
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I admit to learning tunes on the fly, but by listening to 4 bars then playing it.
Problem is - if you can play along perfectly with the tune, but you cannot play it yourself, have you actually learnt it? There are tunes I'm not particularly taken with, so have never bothered to learn them, but if someone else plays them, I will still join in.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
It does depend on the session, however. Our local session tolerates learning tunes on the fly, as long as it's done discretely and on a small percentage of the evening's tunes. There are several players here who can get a tune by the third or fourth go round without detracting from the fun.
But our session rarely if ever mistakes itself for a performance or talent show. And learning tunes on the fly actually helps set the mood for everyone in the room. It's like saying, "Listen up, the music you're about to hear is *live,* unrehearsed (though well practiced), and unpredictable. We find great joy and magic in that."
Heh, John, I suggested lessons only because some of the better players get asked _a lot_ for help in learning tunes. Most players I know are more than happy to share their tunes and knowledge, but their time is valuable and should not be taken for granted. If you offer to pay for a lesson, they can always turn it down, but at least you've shown that you value their time and respect their expertise. More often than not, players are happy to just do a tune swap--I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
No wonder I feel like it's a lost cause. Well, if you can't lick em, join em I guess. Ok, all together now -- everyone's doing it doing it doing it...
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Well, I think Will had it right the first time -- there's a diff between noodling and learning a tune. Noodlers to me are the infamous Tweetys (to use Brad's term). They think what they're doing IS the tune, or is an acceptable adjunct to it. I never mind people who are learning a tune unless they're doing it way too loud and you can hear them over the actual tune (in other words, pipers, for instance rarely get to "try out" a tune -- safer to learn it at home and bring it next time), but Tweetys make me crazy and send me to the bar.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I always thought "noodlers" were the folks who play around on their instruments between tunes (unfortunately bodhran players are the worst offenders at this). I used to play with a jam that would play the tune 8-10 times, so that by the end everyone had had a chance to pick it up. If someone hadn't, they'd shout, "One more time, I've almost got it!", and we'd go again. It was a very informal jam. In Rochester, NY, we have a "learner's jam" prior to the regular jam every month. Helps sort out the folks who are "not quite ready for prime time." Taping the tunes for learning at home seems the least intrusive way to collect them (except for the people who keep asking "What was the name of that tune?"). I starting playing spoons at jams because I didn't want to just sit there with my instrument in my lap when I didn't know the tune. One thing led to another, & now I play the bodhran almost exclusively.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Herding Cats
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
bravo Will..exactly right, I think. The mood of a session is best when the players are all there for each other, to share in the experience, and no one feels "hmm I'm not good enough to try. i mean even if he/she only hits the one high note in the a part and the two long notes in the B, say, then he has added to the energy. And if there is an audience, well, they are a happy by product of the get together. Sets get tremendous lifts when each time it passes round there are a few more notes in place, a few more instruments included. Remeber that lovely passge in Last Nights Fun where the author talks about himself and his buddies sitting in a sunlit window at three in the afternoon, having had their breakfast, and with their cases at their feet, and one by one they open them and one fellow begins to scratch out a bit of memory,, a musical thread of something he remmebers, then another begins to chase the same forgotton tune, and after 14 passes all four are playing the same melody...
ahh...that all our sessions could be so romantic......
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Sitting around after breakfast is a good time to teach each other tunes. At the pub in a session we will sometimes chase tunes in this way, but we still know the tune already. But let's not loose the focus of the thread. It's about people learning the tune on the fly while others are trying to enjoy playing it. I think to do so is rude and inappropriate, but I have the feeling that I'm outnumbered in this forum.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
mebbe its qualitative ingredient.......the degree of focus on the part the noodler?
mebbe fov jus used the wrong wor.... Is a noodler someone whois trying to blend in and actually learn the tune? not to my mind....to me a noodler is jus what it sounds like, a wanderer, a jammer, an indisiplined wormy squireely twisty dried up old piece of rice or wheat flour packed into cellophane and designed to be immersed with all his buddies into boiling water, and eaten.
no offence! i jus got a bit carried away, literary-like. I love to noodle, esp in the privacy of my own home......
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
My definition of “noodling” is someone does who can't resist playing along even when they don't know the tune. They "noodle" out the tune as close as they can and usually fail but feel justified in their cause. They will make lofty claims about their abilities to accomplish this, but will usually let you down when they are actually doing it. I have been playing sessions here in the US (West Coast) for 20 years and there's always at least one it seems. (yes, I too was once guilty of this) When I've attended sessions in Ireland in the middle of winter when all the musical tourists aren't there, I haven't witnessed this sort of behavior amongst the locals. It leads me to conclude that the practice of "noodling" is taking place outside of Ireland. (Except during Festival season when musical tourists are ubiquitous in Ireland and all the locals are in hiding)
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I mean 14 years, not 20. Wow, I feel younger all of a sudden.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
well yknow the "can't resist' part could always be taken as a complement. The music is so driving an delicious that the doodler simply cannot control himself.....
I love the disipline of ITM but occasionally pull back from the picture and get a glimpse also of it's restrictions.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
It's not about "restrictions" but rather about manners. I had to learn how to resist noodling too, and it wasn't easy. I had people going quiet to see if I knew the tune or not just like what was suggested above, and eventually I realized that my "noodling" was a self indulgent pursuit that needed to be reconsidered. At this point I know what the people around me at the time were going through, and I cringe at the thought. But if there’s an unnecessary restriction here, it isn't on me not to play the tunes I don't know, but rather on everyone else’s ability to enjoy playing the music.
Put the whistle down, step away from the tune and no one will get hurt.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I'm with Will on the lilting idea. You can even lilt internally without annoying anyone and it helps get the tune into your head.
I will also admit to sometimes 'noodling' [never heard the phrase before this discussion!] but quietly so as not to disturb, although I sometimes fail in this and wreck somebody else's tune much to my humiliation and embarrassment! So even though I'm [very rarely] guilty I would suggest that the sess is not the place for this.
I also like the Kerry way of playing tunes about a dozen times round so that it becomes almost zen like and it does certainly help with learning. In our sessions the tune gets played at least three time round but we will keep it going if someone is on the brink and about to fall into the tune.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by breandan
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Yes, that's a good one. Keep an ear out for someone who almost has it, then go through it six or seven times until they get it. Or if there's one elusive bit, show them after the set, and then play the tune again later in the evening. And make sure you play it next week. I like it when people do that for me.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by ...
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
There's two or three subtly different topics being discussed here and some of us are, maybe, at cross purposes. I wouldn't consider myself to be a "noodler". I'll sit and listen if I don't know a tune, although I might "finger" (sounds a bit cheeky) the fret board/fiddle neck etc without actually playing or making a sound. However, if there's a tune that I've heard a few times or sounds quite easy(usually the same thing, though I might not realise it), I will "have a go" at playing. I'm usually successful at this or I wouldn't have taken the risk. If I'm unable do this, I'll stop altogether rather than "fake it". I don't see any problem if a slightly different but sympathetic note is played here and there. This happens quite often anyway as we probably all know different versions of tunes.
It's certainly not my purpose to attend a session to learn tunes---though I might find new tunes to learn or "pick them" up anyway.
There are times that somebody may start a tune and suddenly realise that nobody else knows it. I, for one, am quite grateful if one or more of the better musicians makes an attempt at joining in or provides some backing. This gives me a bit more confidence and I feel less exposed. Of course, those who join in or try "to assist" should be experienced enough to know what they're doing, as you can be "put off" as well. Perhaps, this is the problem. Maybe, it should be a case of "When in doubt, do nowt".
Re passing on and swapping tunes. This depends a lot on the type of session. In "fast and busy" sessions, you don't have time for the likes of this and it will probably disrupt the proceedings. However, in more relaxed situations it is quite possible. A busy and fast session is session is not necessarily full of good or "the best" musicians. Likewise, you'll find excellent and "top rate" musicians in smaller "laid back" sessions. The latter is maybe done "on purpose" and there'll be lots of time for chats,a bit of crack etc, and beers between tunes. How often do you hear musicians saying "I learned this tune from the playing of -------" ? I'm sure they don't always mean from a CD or a walkman recording, although they will, no doubt, learn them this way too.
Hope you don't think I'm being difficult here, Jack and Will. I do agree with the general thrust of your arguments but I don't think the issue can be quite as "black and white" as suggested.
John
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Yeah, I pretty much agree with Jack, If I'm in a Loud, dissapointing sesh and someone plays a tune I know in my head but havent learnt then I'll learn in quietly etc. But if its a lovely session and the tunes are cranking then there is no way I would learn tunes there and then wouldnt even want to, I'd sit back and listen and I'd love it. Sessions arent all about 'me,me, me' Sometimes its even better just to listen to a perfect session....when I know I'm out of my league.
we've had many a discussion on that topic and have to say that I just cannot be bothered with people who insist on being ignorant and annoying. There is nothing more dangerous than an ignorant musician in a session..thats when the dreaded 'jam' word comes into it. Stay home, learn the tune, come to a session, play it......
Zina's point on Tweeties is a valid one too
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by bb
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
vboyd100 mentioned "restrictions" about Irish Music. I totally agree with Jack that it's about manners and common courtesy. I lived in Japan for 6 months when I was 20 yrs old. But before I flew over, I researched extensively the culture and etiquette that would be expected of me so I wouldn't offend anyone or seem like a total ignorant a$$hole.
Shouldn't this be the same with any type of society that you encounter as a newcomer, such as Irish music sessions? Don't you want to do your homework and understand the do's & don'ts? Why is this so hard for some people to understand?
vboyd100 also mentioned the music being "so delicious that the noodler can't control him/herself?".....If you feel the music is so wonderful then this should give you the motivation to go home and learn these tunes and then come back and play them once you have them down. I always hear tunes I just gotta learn ASAP! But I love and cherish this music so much that I would never just noodle it out at a session. To me this is just having manners and respect for the other players who have worked hard to learn the tune they are playing!
I'm not trying to put vboyd00 on the spot. It's just that we get a lot of folks with her attitude that show up at the session and think its ok to just noodle through every tune. If you consider simple etiquette to be “restrictions” then maybe Irish music is not your scene.
But to be fair to Kerri, I do think if you can noodle so softly that it doesn't interfere than fine. I know a woman who does this so quietly that it's not a problem. But like it's been said above *most* people are not so subtle about it........
Well that's my vent for the day....this site can sometimes be good therapy
Cheers,
Joyce
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by JMH
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Joyce... you said it so much better than I did... cheers.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
In a word..."don't"
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Plunkett.mi
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
It just dawned on me I have some other persepctives to add. Some months ago I asked several dozen well known players in Ireland and the US a series of questions about playing in sessions. One of my queries was whether they ever try to pick up tunes on the fly and it so, did they have any tips for doing it.
Nearly everyone agreed this is difficult to do, and it should only be done if you can figure it out without detracting from the music. Several people suggested something along the lines of my three-step processs above. Only one or two said they flat out don't try to pick up tunes on the fly at sessions.
But these are all top-notch (internationally known) players who would never "noodle" around a tune. Either they know it already and play it, learn it quickly and unobtrusively on the fly, or they relax and enjoy the others playing it.
In short, if "noodling" means aimlessly "improvising" to a tune, I agree--there's no place for that at a good session. If noodling means learning a tune on the fly, then I think a small portion of the musical population is capable and may be justified in doing it, if they can do it unobtrusively (as judged by the other players in the circle), and it fits in the general mood of the session at hand.
Strikes me that you'll know whether you can learn tunes on the fly or not by trying it at home first, with a cd. If you can't do it there, don't try it at your local pub.
I'd also suggest that we're a diverse group here, with a wide range of abilities and experience with the music, and the sessions we each go to probably also cover a wide range of approaches to the music. What's acceptable in some places won't be in others. Personally, I abhor aimless noodling. But I'm okay with learning tunes on the fly when done well and discretely. Mind you, I'm not wild about it, but I won't let some harmless bit of it ruin my fun either.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
And another thing (gawd, I'm starting to sound like my dad
....
The other side of this can drive me crazy--when you organize a slow session or a workshop for the express purpose of learning tunes together, and people refuse to play along and pick up the tune. I realize that some folks aren't as quick to pick up tunes on the fly, but they'll never get any better if they don't try. In the beginning, most people end up noodling a bit because they're not accustomed to identifying pitch intervals by ear, so they hunt and peck. But some folks--even otherwise good players--seem so afraid of playing a "wrong" note that they won't play any notes at all.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I was once at a session with great players in attendance where in mid-tune an un-named world-class flute player turned to a internationally known piper who was "picking up a tune on the fly" on a whistle, and he said, "Do you know this tune?" and the piper/whistle player replied, "Not really, but I've heard it before." and the flute player said, "Well could you please stop -- you're putting me off."
World class musos aren't beyond behaving badly either it seems.
I should add to all my previous posts that the sessions I'm talking about aren't inhabited with beginners and aren't considered "slow sessions." As Will points out, people on this list are coming from various types and levels of sessions, and in the context of “slow sessions” or “learning sessions” it might be appropriate to "noodle" or "pick up tunes on the fly." But if you're in a session where people have already learned ITM and want to celebrate it by having a few tunes and drinks together -- this isn't the time to start noodling around to pick up a tune no matter how compelled you might feel to play along.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
But Jack, the piper is a prime example of an *instrument* that simply cannot get away with learning a tune on the fly _discretely._ I still say it's okay if you can do it so quietly no one else notices--which is possible on fiddle and banjo (put the pick down and use your right thumb and index to pluck the strings very lightly), tho maybe not on any other instruments.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Ooops...missed the "whistle" part, but again, it's almost impossible to play a sessionable whistle quietly (without going completely flat).
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Yes Will. The fiddle is an exception when used this way. In a previous post I told you how the fiddler I play with learns a tune by the 3rd or 4th pass in this way. He's one of the few I've witnessed to actually succeed at this, and I wouldn’t call it “noodling.” But I think a lot of people are "noodling" for other reasons. They might say they're trying to pick up tunes, but if they were to honestly re-examine why they do it, they might discover that they just don't feel comfortable sitting and listening in a session that’s in full spate. I know this to be true because of my own experience. I had to counsel myself to have the discipline enough not to give in to my impulses. It's not unlike trying to quit smoking or stay on a diet or something.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
well, i am speechless....
i guess my noodling days are over!
and I best reflect on my manners too!
Seriously, this was good to stir it up a bit...jmh's insight into respecting the customs of other cultures expression of other is much appreciated.
My little speech about restrictions applied less to the music and more to the customs. Without really being concious of it I think I was reflecting on my visit to ireland in 1975. I spent a year in a small village (pop300), which i won't mention, and although at first i was entralled I later felt quite oppressed by the secrecy and weight of the lifestyle. I do acknowledge however that 1) i was quite young, 2) i was amn outsider 3) i did not at that time have any grasp of the music...
perhaps my griping is a bit of a love/hate thing.. love thy jailer or whatever.. What i mean to say is I am so entranced by this gtg ..
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Oh well, Jack, I'm not above giving someone a sharp look if their noodling is putting me off, though they'd have to really be making a nuisance of themselves for me to actually say something. (But especially when they've proven themselves either ignorant or uncaring of that particular session's etiquette.) If I'm behaving badly by doing so, too bad, is the way I'm afraid I look at it -- especially since if I'm doing something at a session that bothers another player, I'd rather they let me know than sticking the knife behind my back where it doesn't do me any good.
Ah, last night's fun -- story time! We had a visitor to our little session, a rather drunken woman who charged up onto the rather small and confined area where we were playing away and shouted, "Where do I sit! Where do I sit!" in the middle of a tune; she threw herself at a chair in the circle as players hurriedly got out of her way, a couple of them standing up and shipping themselves over to the other side of the circle with all haste mid-tune without missing very many beats.
She then clapped all out of time, talked loudly through a couple of tunes, and asked all kinds of questions of the player next to her who was trying to listen to the tunes being played but who was nice enough to answer her questions and help her clap in time.
I escaped to the bar briefly to get a soda water; the bartender told me to let her know if the woman was getting out of hand. While I was talking to someone else, I started feeling guilty about abandoning everyone else to the woman, and finally dragged myself back up and sat down to play.
When we'd ended a jig set and launched into a set of reels, our visitor got up to dance wildly in the middle of the circle (possibly thinking to emulate John's daughter Emma, who had danced a few steps for us in the middle of the circle earlier in the evening), careening dangerously close to various musicians who ducked and covered as best possible, at which point the flute player had had enough (possibly because her banjo in it's stand was in imminent danger of tramplement) and she flung out a hand and shouted out, "No. No! There will be NO dancing! NONE. NO." and the set ground to an immediate halt. Once the woman had sat back down, we started the tune again, and the woman shortly went back to her husband at the end of the bar.
It's never fun while it's happening, but you have to love getting such great fodder for session stories!
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: The dos and don'ts of noodle-brains.
There's always at least one it seems. I think that lady's been to our pub too Zina. hahahaha
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
oh.. sorry.. i had to leave quickly..
so, much later I found out that the reason i felt "oppressed" in that village was merely that I was precieved as a yuong woman travelling around alone etc.. (and no, I was not behaving wantonly)
but of course all cultures have their restrictions so its a moot point regarding the "restrictions" that may be found in session playing..as I was saying about the love/hate thing......I feel i learn so much in playing fiddle music because it is so tight and demanding, and I keep wanting more of that, and with every new tune I learn some new technique, my ears sharpen, my rythem improves.. so I love it but i also feel trapped by it sometimes. uh.. i think I have been bewitched and enchanted...
i have been playing it a long time (25) years but I also leave it for years at a time..
anyway, honest, i don't noodle, but I do lift whenever i can, and I know for certain that by getting involved with tunes on the fly I am supporting the player, cause I can feel it and they often nod to me after, or come over to chat during a break or whatever
thx for the description of Kerry style sessions, sounds wonderful and supportive..
my pet peeve is players that intententionally put little two or four (or eight) bar endings on their tunes, or sets, thus shutting them down. Fine for performance but not sessions I think
anyway thx all, and hope you had fun jumping on me! It's all good..
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
oh yeah, that lady has been to our bar too. Actually I was the one who invited her into the circle, but i didnt realize quite how powerfu lshe could be.. guess she gets around. No dancing no no .. haaaa, funny
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Noodling - Just say "NO".
There is no compulsion to be playing all the time. It is perfectly acceptable to sit and listen. I sometimes even sit out tunes I know how to play if I am particularly enjoying someone else's rendition.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by milesnagopaleen
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Ronnie, (vboyd) you have to distinguish what session style you're referring to with your pet peeve. If it's a free-for-all read-my mind-what-the-next-tune-is affair -- then I can understand. But there are other session styles too. In our circle we generally follow whoever started the first tune, and if they do a 3-blind-mice ending, they're letting us know that's the last tune they had in mind. If someone starts up another tune it's considered a hijacking. There are always exceptions and it's not a hard fast rule, but normally we just follow along.
I prefer the style that takes it a bit further, where the person starting the tune plays a little snippet of each tune they intend to play first so that we can make the changes with them. Then they start the tune with everyone aware of the medley coming. The guitar player (if there is one) also benefits because he knows what key changes are coming. We all play together from start to finish like we're all on a roller-coaster ride together, and we all end together. It's great fun I think. It doesn't mean every set has to be like that, but if the tune starter wants it to be -- whoopee!
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
"3-blind-mice" -- LOL
I never mind very much if someone picks up at the end of a set, but some people mind it very much. I personally think it's best to catch the eye of the person who started a set and raise an eyebrow sometime in the last repeat of the last part of the last tune they mentioned (if they did so at all). If they shake their head, then the set stops. If they pass the set to you with a shrug or a toss of the chin, it's your turn to start a tune. If they don't react, either they'll start another tune or end the set, and it's usually considered polite to let them make that decision.
But every session will be different. Even in Kerry.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Is that the 2mm or the 3mm eyebrow raise? Could be the difference between gas and acceptance.
I prefer ear-wiggling myself, but it's not for everyone.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by grego
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Well, you'd have the set then, Greg, because I'd probably be somewhere on the floor laughing.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
At the Plough the publican will sometimes subject the international stars from Ireland to the local ITM enthusiasts by having them guest host a session. In the early days before we gained any awareness of the different session styles that exist we were always dismayed by how the guest hosts always seemed to end up sitting at the bar for most of the evening. Later, when some of us wised up a bit and we were capable of following the lead of our guest hosts, they played tunes with us all night. At least until some clue less eejit would show up and start the free-for-all- thing up. Then I would join our guest host at the bar *sigh*
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "eyebrow lifting" and "ear wiggling"
hahahahahaha
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The don'ts of "noodling"
Rule one: If yer picking the tune, make sure you don't noodle it.
otherwise, noodle your whistle like a fife (transverse). you can get the fingering down by watching the whistler/flautist across the room and all you hear is a 'hissy-whistle' in your (right) ear. while this may annoy the person directly to your right, no-one else can hear it, and you can figure the tune out relatively anonymously.
I confess, I've noodled out a tune or two in session, and then be complimented later for knowing the tune so well...go figure...
just my $.02.
foxpaw
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by foxpaw
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
another thought...I like the idea of listening before ya start playing full blast, but just listening can lull myself into hiding. I can find myself feeling to afraid to try. My middle ground is often to play harmonies(luckily this comes pretty easy to me).This keeps me focused and in the game without being disruptive.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by crazy
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I'd watch that last -- in a more purist session, you might feel like you're not being disruptive playing harmonies, but other people might. Of course, for other sessions where that sort of thing is welcome, it's not a problem, but you'd better know which sort you're in before you try it.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
The mandolin is a godsend to the noodler. Play all your notes on the beat and nobody can tell you don't know the tune. I've been doing it for years - and some people actually think I can play.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
...Sorry, I don't do smiley faces.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Yikes...this thread is going the way of a noodlesome session. Harmonies? Hissy whistling in my ear? No thanks. Jack, I'll be at the bar with you.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
At our Sunday session things tend to get informal with tunes from all over. I have found one frightening consequence of "noodling" to tunes I don't know on the concertina. Bob the banjo player is quite likely to say "concertina solo" leaving me like a deer in the headlights!
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by lildogturpy
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
But crazy, this is exactly what we've been discussing. Maybe it's ok to do that in your session in Florida, but it might not go down well in sessions you encounter elsewhere. Be careful about the standards that you adapt on your home turf, they might be out of sync with standards set in places where the music has a stronger base.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
That's ok Will, sitting at the bar's great craic too. What-a-ya drinking?
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I'll take a shot of Edradour, neat. Make it a double.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
good stuff guys,, no,not the whiskey, but the idea that different sessions have different styles and signs, eyebrows, ears, cadences, whatever,,thx.
Im glad when these discussions go on and on trying to get to the point.. some real gems of knowledge leak out..Yeah i would like to be at one of those sessions where the leader of the set givesa little foretaste of the tunes he has in mind.. the transitions must be pretty uplifting, invigorating
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
oohh i just wanted to speak to crazy's insight that sometimes "sitting an listening can lull a person" I really think this is true, can and does happen..Having to "wait" can wreak havoc on a new player. They can get frozen,feel out of it, be unready, shy, be rendered incapable, all kinds of energy that simply is not beneficial, wheras a bit of noodling, just keeping the fingers in contact with the instrument and staying with the rythem is enough to keep the somewhat shyer player feeling in the groove, at the starting blocks.....
I was thinking last night about the aulde singing tradition, particalarly in the English pubs, I believe. There EVERYONE could, and did, join in....ahh..but i digress, I am noodling far off the point..
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I'll address the issue of shy players and session styles. One thing that's frustrating for shy players is starting a tune and then when it comes time to change to the next tune -- everyone stops to see what tune the person had in mind is next. This suddenly puts the shy player on the spot and the medley experiences a meltdown and embarrasses the shy player. If you were able to play a snippet of each tune so that the others knew what you intended to play, they could help you with the change. When I tried to instigate this concept at sessions I was hosting I found that the shy players appreciated the idea for that reason. The people that didn’t like that session style were the same ones who had a tendency to hijack medleys.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
What's all the fuss about noodling? I noodle songs all the time in our weekly jam. I do harmonies on the fly as well. Sometimes the other musicians glance at me, and I just know they're thinking "how does he do that?", but little do they know I'm only doing it because I don't know the tune.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
hi Dow......well i jus bin tol' to shut down (computer is in hallway,wid noisy keyboard)but i'll speak to yer posts tammarrey ok?
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Eeekk - can I join you two at the bar please? Dow is noodling in my left ear and there is a hissy sorta noise coming from the direction of my right side. Sigh. No matter how many times we go through the things people should and shouldnt do at a session I always feel deflated. There really are some pearls of wisdom on this site but somehow alot of it just gets ignored. Oh well.... Willie Clancy week in 3 weeks and 4 days!
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by bb
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I was always brought up to believe that the session is the best training ground for a musician and that's the place to learn and swap tunes. Sessions are not concerts and places to show off ... they are a gathering of friends to play music and enjoy the craic. The music is there to be enjoyed by ALL whatever ones's ability to play and the better musicians should encourage and help the weaker ones. But I am of the old school and maybe things have changed these days for the worse however NOT in the sessions I play in.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Bernie
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Um, I dont think anyone really meant it like that Bernie. Some people enjoy sessions no matter how good they are or what the craic is like. I have *no* problems whatsoever with anybody joining in on the sessions I play at. Having said that - its just good manners not to noodle and wreck it for other people. There are alot of different types of musicians. There are those that play almost every night at home learning new tunes etc and there are those who think its great craic to play tunes in sessions who dont really practice etc. And obviously alot in between. But as a person who sits down night after night to learn tunes etc I dont find it that appealing being in session where people irritate me. I dont think that is mean and I dont think its being unsupportive. We have alot of musicaians who come to our session of all levels and we all have mighty craic and the reason for this mighty craic is because no matter everbodys level etc - noone is annoying. Thankfully!
A session is to learn. Of course it is. But *never* at the expense of other musicians.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by bb
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
BB there are some pearls of wisdom and some whirls of p**sdom. I reckon you're gonna hear a whole lot of noodling at some of the sessions at WC Week, but generally that's the point. It's a learning experience. For anyone who cares to hear it, my opinion is that if you're a beginner you shouldn't noodle at a session, and if you're an experienced player you should know better. Of course this doesn't apply to me since, with my 400 or so years of experience, I know when it's alright!
Conán
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I wish you lot would stop fussing, you obviously don't know what jams are all about. Everyone should be included no matter what your colour or creed - it's all about the songs. If you don't know the song, it's cool to try out a funky harmony instead. Everyone will thank you for jazzing the song up a bit for them.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
well, i agree actually...it's like a big plate of chinese food in the middle of the table, and everyone reaches with their chopsticks...to pen a instantly classic accurate and illuminating .. umm metephor? homonym? simile?
anyway.. Balance balance,,,
usually the guitar hackers dont bother me that much. The perople who are "on" generally are able to dreown out the ones who are discombobulatedly unfamiliar...
but y'know i do see the point: IF there are only a few "on" players and mweanwhile crowds of enthusiastic jammers descend on the group,, i think the trick here would be to ..hhahaah.. secretly meet in a new venue, kinda like underground politics...you could have passwords an stuff...
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by vboyd100
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I don't think Bernie is grasping exactly the issue we're discussing because I'm having a wee bit of trouble visualizing Bernie's session at Pepper's Bar having noodlers noodling around with reckless abandon in such a setting as that. I can't get my head around the idea of anyone coming in and sitting down next to someone like P. J. Hayes (RIP) and commence noodling tunes they hardly know. It was sessions around Clare that I learned my own session manners, and I never witnessed any such behavior as that. And anything that came remotely close was promptly, but discreetly, frowned upon. I have seen people at all levels of musicianship join in at these sessions, (as they should,) but I’ve never seen them display any bad manners like that.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I think the Irish have forgotten the meaning of the word "jam", it's like c'mon guys stop being so serious and just play some cool music.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
That's why they just call them "sessions" Dow... get a grip.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Okay, sessions then, whatever. I still think it's not important to know the song. I mean, someone else is bound to know it so you can leave it to them and that leaves you the space to improvise cool stuff. Noodle on! And play louder so we can hear those lovely harmonies!
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
You know Mark, someone is going to take you seriously, and I really hope that they're sitting next to you at your next session and you won't have Beebs there to shout them down for you. *grin*
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I love to play harmonies on songs when I'm familiar with them, the singer doesn't mind, and it seems called for, but on the tunes, I just play the melody -- otherwise it gets too cacophonous.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Caca what?!
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Or just "cack" for short - good word that...
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Bernie, thanks for your input. You seem to be one of the few who actually got the point of my original post. vboyd, you're right that I probably chose the wrong word. Nevertheless, whether you call it noodling or picking up a tune on the fly or "spoiling things for everybody else", I still feel strongly that learning a few tunes at sessions is a valuable element of my learning process. It helps train the ear as a tool, both for getting tunes into your head and for blending unobtrusively with the rest of the players and not fall to pieces when you get a little lost - which happens to everybody, I think, even with tunes we know inside and out.
Clearly, you shouldn't try it at Jack's session, but I think anywhere else I've been (including Ireland) it's pretty much OK, as long as:
a) the other players can't hear you over the melody
b) there are at least four other instruments playing the tune properly
c) you know and can play in the key/s the tune is in
d) you have heard the tune several times before
e) the people you are playing with are your friends
f) you listen closely the first time through
g) you make a sincere effort to play the tune itself and not some random plinkety plonk that you think fits nicely with it.
* h) there is some kind of backing instrument playing
i) you don't play the great highland bagpipes, ocarina, or shakey egg.
(* the absence of a guitar, bodhran or bazouki is a pretty good indicator that you have stumbled upon purists who will not appreciate noodlage. It also leaves the would-be-noodler without the option of blending in with the guitars when you lose the flutes and pipes).
I personally wouldn't want to be at a session that the players describe as a "public performance" (as in "Before the phenomenon of sessions came around people would get the tunes from one another away from any public performance" - sorry to pick on you Jack).
Lots of things annoy me more than fiddlers picking up tunes on the fly. ie: people hearing the first note of a tune, thinking it's some other tune they know and blasting into it full steam *without using their ears*, which could easily tell them they flubbed up and should stop playing. Also, people hearing a tune they know played in a different key and playing the first couple bars in THEIR key anyway - again an ear failure. Speeding things up, slowing things down, drowning out the player who started the set, ignoring differences in the way somebody else plays a tune some night and not bothering to try to assimilate because that's not the way they play it on the CD you learned it from...
All of these things can be directy linked to not making an effort, while playing with living breathing people, to teach your ears, fingers, and brain to work together.
By the way, Turpy, Bob's the last guy on earth you should take sh*t from about noodling!
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Apologies for the absurdly long post, and also for making it longer with this sub-post, and also for abandonning my own thread for so long I felt I needed to reply to everybody all at once with a novella.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Apologies to the pious for temporarily changing my user name to "god". I only did it to crack a joke on another thread. I promise I'll change it back before the smiting begins.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I think you answered your own question in the middle paragraph of your first post
But be prepared for gentle slagging sometimes e.g. I (a fiddle player) have been told to stop noodling by a *guitarist*. Harumph 
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Just a person
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Kerri, when did I say a session was a "public performance"? I don’t believe I said that anywhere. I don't mind you picking on me, but please don't put words in my mouth or misrepresent my assertions. It’s interesting that you think Bernie was the only one who “got it” considering more than one of us had the impression he was missing the gist of the discussion. Also, Bernie insinuates that by asking people not to noodle around when they don't know the tune somehow means we’re "showing off.” I don’t quite understand how that works… could someone explain this please? Other than that I agree with everything Bernie said. I don't think he was trying to say that sessions are where you can noodle around when you don't know the tune and annoy people next to you. I think he was just talking about what we all love to do at sessions -- share the music. I think that's the common thread with all of us here who advocate having good manners when you join a session.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Yeah - I know Conan, Ive been to WC twice before. Sometimes its great to be in a mad session just for the sociable craic and pints...not too often tho. So I dont really mind if its only a few at WC
Kerri, I think I didnt get the meaning of your post properly. I'd never heared the term 'noodling' until Will wrote it here one time and I thought it meant messing around with tunes, chords, harmonys, just generally mucking about. Big 'no no' on the other hand, I know a few people who are good enough to pick up tunes on the fly and make it sound like theyve been doing it forever. That is absolutley fine. Problem is I think some people actually think they can do it and they cant....anyhow - Good thread!
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by bb
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I wasn't imlying that asking someone not to noodle is showing off. I merely pointed out that sessions are not the place to show off.
P.Joe actually encouraged people to play along and learn tunes they don,t know .. (discretely of course) and it was done all the time in Peppers and other places.
Listen carefully the first time round.
Finger the tune the second and then put a bow on it the third time. Often the tune would be played more than three times if it was obvious someone was trying to pick it up. Will pointed this out earlier. Just as a point of interest P. Joe once gave out to me in no uncertain terms when he caught me jotting down the notes of a phrase I was having difficulty with. He strongly believed the only way to learn is by ear in the session.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Bernie
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Yes, it's this "improvisation" that I can't be bothered with either. People who "can't resist playing" whether they know a tune or not and think they can play around it. You'll even get some players who do this with tunes they know because they're either bored with them the way are or to "show off". I know a fiddler who does this and can be very distracting. By the way, I'm not talking about ornamentations here but deliberating introducing so many unecessary variations etc so that the original tune can sometimes be almost unrecognisable.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Oh don't be so stick-in-the-mud John. I think we need to play these songs a little more loosely and permit ourselves to let our hair down once in a while, treat it like jazz and play about with the melodies. If you do this loud enough and look confident enough when you're doing it, play with flair and pizzaz, people will stop playing and watch you in amazement, thinking "wow, cool, this person can really make this music sound new and creative". Trust me, I've done it before. This isn't showing off mind you, it's just enjoying the songs, and making them more interesting for other people in the process. Let's face it there's too many of these dang songs anyways. Why bother sitting down to learn them all when you can have more fun improvising cool stuff?
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Dow, I just saw the first part of your post in the "New Comments" and hadn't realised it was yourself. And I was all ready for a fight too. Phew. That's a relief.
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Dow, have mercy, I don't how much more of this I can take
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Just a person
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
ROTFLMAO. I'm going to have to go and hide in the nettie
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Just a person
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Dammit, youse are impossible to wind up these days. Nobody takes bait anymore. Ah well, I'm off to learn a new song
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I'll take the bait, Dow. Surely, you mean tunes.
Unless you play the "Song of the Chanter", of course. 
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Tunes, saawngs, they're the same thing. That melody should sound just like it's being sung by a human voice, whatever the instrument it's played on - banjo, fiddle, bodhran - make 'em sing. Except if it's an Anglo concertina, in which case you can just leave it at home
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
ROTFWML !
# Posted on June 1st 2004 by Ottery
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
So what have we learned here? Bernie's insight is very good, but it still doesn't justify any "noodling" to get the tune, but rather a very discreet approach to learning tunes by ear without resorting to dots or recording devices. This approach probably works better on some instruments than on others, and I think it would only be practical in a situation where there are enough people playing the tune who know it well. Also, it would have to be approached very carefully so as not to interrupt the flow of the tune and the fun that the people playing it are having.
hahahaha
Maybe the session at Peppers is more relaxed than some of the ones I attended in Ennis. I didn’t see anyone attempting to learn tunes in this manner and I couldn’t even imagine trying to myself. So again – it comes down to different session styles. The bottom line is that you should try to get an idea of what the style is before you decide to join in, no matter what country you’re in.
And finally, we learned that Mark (Dow) has buttons on his concertina that produce lyrics so he can sing on the “songs.” Not only that, but he thinks ITM is jazz, he has long hair hanging down all over the shop, and his musical cohorts have weird names like “Flair” and “Pizzaz.”
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Jack, you wrote the line I quoted on Sunday, May 30, just under John's longish post wondering what the traditional way to get tunes is, pretty close to the top.
Anyway, because I came here to chat a lot before I went to hot sessions, I never used to touch my fiddle during a tune I didn't know, because it's evil and bad and everyone would hate me and b*tch about me later on the forum. Then a friend of mine started giving me the nod during a set of polkas, and I thought "What the heck is he doing? I don't know any polkas." But he kept on nodding, pointedly gazing at my fiddle, and sometimes kicking me in the foot. So I thought, well, he's a purist so he oughta know, I picked up my fiddle and I tried out the tune. I had absolutely no trouble whatsoever picking up that tune plus the next four after hearing them once through. I still don't think I "know" any polkas. I mean, I never learned one on purpose (although I'm thinking about learning the Tolka) but I can play a simple polka at a moderate tempo after hearing it once or twice. I'm grateful to Pat for making me aware of this by encouraging me to try it at a session. Assuming that's what all the kicking, nodding and staring was about. Maybe he really wanted me to snap it in two and I took it the wrong way.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
The quote: "Before the phenomenon of sessions came around people would get the tunes from one another away from any public performance." I'm not saying that sessions are by definition a "public performance" but rather that they happen in public where anyone can hear them and you don't have to be at someone's house. The context of the discussion at that point was how one “picks up tunes” and what it might have been like before recording devices were abundant. The use of the word "performance" is NOT referring to stage and screen, but rather to the execution of a task. For example one might say, "He performed his obligations dutifully." and you wouldn't be talking about a staged show.
I agree with you about polkas, Kerri, they are the easiest tunes to pick up “on the fly” and at dances Dale has given me the same nod you got from Pat. Dale has more confidence in my ability than I do. But if I started noodling on every tune Dale played that I didn’t know – I might be introduced to the business end of his bow up side my head.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
The Final Rule of Session Ettiquette:
All foregoing rules may, will and MUST be broken.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Darn!! Too slow on the STOP button. I wanted to remove that superfluous 't' from 'ettiquette'.
- ETIQUETTE -
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Good session etiquette isn't about "rules" -- it's about manners.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
LOL -- the three overriding rules of etiquette are:
For the guest: Do your best to fit in to the norms of the society of your host.
For the hosts: Do your best to re-frame the norms of your society around that of your guest.
For everybody: Be ready to forgive any lapses by anybody -- assumption of best intentions usually meets expectations.
If all parties try to meet these rules, you end up with good manners.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Jack, it's true one shouldn't be doing this all night long. If I tried, I think my brain would explode. I can absorb an absolute maximum of three tunes (besides polkas) per night this way, and all the conditions I listed in my big fat honkin ridiculously long post above still need to be met, especially the one about having heard the tune several times before.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
That's ok Kerri, my head exploded a long time ago... that's why I haven't a clue about anything I'm saying.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
Don't worry, Jack. I knew what you were talking about all along. I'm just being a sh*t disturber.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I sat in on a 'session' up in Nova Scotia (Bai Sainte Marie) where I was the only whistler in a room of guitars, mandos, one banjo and two fiddles. They started in on a tune I knew 'most of' but not 'all of'. so I tinkered a bit getting it down. Looking up at the end of a phrase, I happened to catch the lead fiddlers eye, he ended the phrase with a nod to me...now I had the lead. Damn the noodling, full speed ahead. I got thru it alright, but it did reinforce what Fiddler on Vermouth was getting at. If you don't take a stab, you'll never learn the tunes. I could have sat back all evening and bugged the mando player by saying "what was that one?" then writing the tunes down and figuring them out later. It was much for fun for me, and also for the fiddlers, to vamp the melody back and forth.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by foxpaw
Re: The dos and don'ts of "noodling"
I think it all depends on what kind of session it is. Sounds like that one worked just fine for noodlin, but it might not go over as well in other sessions. You just have to use your noodle and figure it out I guess.
# Posted on July 18th 2004 by Phantom Button