To paraphrase a comment I posted elsewhere (and to borrow again from some whistle web site--I'll go hunt down whose idea this was and give him credit):
If you sing or make noise on an instrument, you're a musician. If you enjoy that noise, you're a good musician. And if other people enjoy it, then you're doing fine.
On the other hand, H.L. Mencken (poster boy for the short-leash society) credits Antisthenes with this definition in reverse: "He must be a poor sort of man to be such a good piper."
Well, I've usually found the opposite to be true....
This is a hard one. I think that there *is* a difference between being someone who can play a musical instrument and a "musician". I think that being a musician implies some deeper knowledge of music and the understanding of how it all fits together, plus the ability to get the best out of his/her instrument. This isn't to dismiss or disrespect how hard it is *just* to learn to play an instrument decently. And I think that the longer a person plays the closer to being a musician one gets, just by playing. I hope....!!
But, then again, this could all be just my own insecurity about my own musical skills speaking
Most of the time I just go with the ideas I posted above, but I like Christine's sense of giving deeper meaning to the word musician. Sort of like saying that a really good, knowledgeable, well-rounded musician is a "musician's musician."
But I'm not sure that there's a clear set of criteria for measuring up. I've known some people who were eminently qualified as Musicians with a capital M, but their understanding of music theory was mostly instinctual, not analytical. They could improvise chord progressions till the cows came home, but they'd never heard of the circle of fifths, let alone studied it. Or take someone like J. P. Rampal. World class flutist, likely one of the best ever. And yet he rarely if ever plays without sheet music. Now in and of itself, that's no big deal. But someone like Charlie Parker or Eric Clapton or Stephane Grapelli (or most of us Irish players) might think it odd to always have the dots in front of them.
Does it make Rampal less of a musician? Not in my book. I think it just expands what we mean by that deeper sense of the word, and somewhere in there we need to leave some room for mystery. Where does music come from? How does it happen? Why? Individually, the answers range all over the place, and yet there's common ground.
(1) Rampal is (a) God.
(2) I don't know why, but we flutists always get away with having the sheet music. Everybody else has to memorize the music. Just another perk of being a flutist, i guess.
Let me just say thanks, it's so refreshing to be able to take 5 minutes from all the krap at work and have these conversations about music.
Maybe there is a difference between being a musician and a pwi (person-with-instrument). Or even worse, pwli (person-with-loud-instrument). The difference is subtle and subjective, and it's not defined by how good you are, thechnically. It's in your soul.
I remember a quote from a novel about Brian Boru ("The Lion of Ireland" or something like that). It refered to his son's ability on the harp. It said his son, "...had the technical ability to play a particular series of notes in a particular order, but he couldn't play music." This is an interesting thought to contemplate. However, I personally lean towards anyone who plays an instrument is a musician. The real distinction comes in terms of how good of a musician you are.
Perhaps that's what I more or less mean too, Jim...to me, a musician CARES -- cares about the music, cares about how it's handled, cares about how it's treated, and is passionate about all aspects of it, whether good-passionate or bad. There's good musicians and bad musicians, of course, we all know that, and there's lovely players, too.
I think I say that because to me a player plays music as an end to a means. To me, a musician plays music as the end AND the means -- it's the journey, more than anything else, as well as a metaphor for life, or at least for the musician's life.
Now I'm thinking about starting a discussion on what's a good musician and a bad one..........Mmmmmmmmmmaybe not,,,,,,,,,
It's gotten pretty complicated as it is.
I must admit, I have questioned my view of what makes a musician or a professional after reading everyones comments.
Jim your quote reminds me of what Neils Bohr (sp?), the Nobel prize-wining physicist, once said to his son: "You're not thinking, you're merely being logical." I've been guilty of that myself, and musically as well--just muddying about with the notes. It's like the difference between going out for a jog and training to compete in the Olympic marathon.
Glauber, I've come to realize that all that sheet music is on hand to mop up the drool....
I get the question "What do you do?" quite often and I know people mean "What do you do for money" but since I'm a temp that varies from day to day, and by no means defines what I "do" (more what I *don't* do...) so I've taken to saying I'm a musician. Took a while for me to be able to say that, because it sounds delusional coming from someone hosing off golf carts for a living and because there's a lot of resentment in the general population towards people who refuse to define themselves by what they get paid for.
But really, that's what I do. I was born to do it, I do it all the time, I've never NOT done it, and it's the only thing I've ever done that's brought me such satisfaction and nearly unbearable joy. I've had dozens of "jobs", none of which came close to defining me. The only constant serious interest in my life is and always has been music. So if I don't fit into the category of "musician" I don't think anybody does. Anyway, when people ask, that's what I say, even if I am in the middle of sorting mail and collating faxes. Whenever I'm not using my brain at work, it is working on tunes.
Besides, now that I'm not a teenager any more, it's not quite so cliche.
Right, Will, that's what I was trying to express by saying the longer a person plays the more of a musician they become. Many really excellent musicians know all of the theory by instinct but couldn't explain it for nuthin' and never studied it, just as you pointed out. They just KNOW where to go and what to do with the music. It seems like magic to me but sometimes it must just come with years and years of playing. I would think Rampal can play without the sheet, if he wanted. Then again....
And caring about the music is a big part of it. Being nuts about it. Where having a free minute means reaching for your instrument if at all possible. Like Zina said, enjoying the journey.
Well, here's my definition, (and I realize that no two will be alike in this world) - - - a person who is deeply involved with music and somewhat skilled in it. I had a small role in a play in college, but I'm not an actor, I use to tune up the car, (before computers) but I'm not a mechanic, I've done small plumbing and electrical things around the house, but I'm not a plumber or electricain, ON and on, and I had to do all those things mainly because as a musician, I couldn't afford to hire those other experts, (hee hee)
I agree with the folks that lean toward a musician being one that Share, Cares, (but I've run into some exceptions that don't do either)
but ONE that truly loves Making Music and one that considers Music to be their "Main Thing" and as Kerri said, "I've never NOT done it"
We used to say "heavy into it". !
A definition of music by one of my professors back from my studying days was: "Music is organized noise!" He was quite well-known as a composer in the scene of "Modern Music", electronic stuff and things like that. The university was very proud to have him, and the pieces by him that I knew, and occasionally (as member of the university choir and the orchestra) had to perform, were very noisy indeed. As a rule they were always more fun to perform than to listen to. That experience has led me to the theory that music basically is something to take part in actively, not just listen (and judge) passively. How many people are there that tell you they like this sort and hate the other, and they only buy a CD because some radio guy tells them itīs No. 1 in the charts?
The question has changed a little in the meantime, but nevertheless let me put this from the point of view of one who is actually earning his money by playing music. Maybe one or two of you out there are interested. (All the others, skip this!) I wonīt play on this forever I promise. And after this I will have said all there is to it anyway.
I have become a professional musician by chance. A director of a big theatre in Hamburg was looking for an Irish fiddle player for a play set in Dublin, and I was one name on a list that he got from asking around in the session venues. He had worked in Dublin for years, knew the music, and knew what he was looking for. I was invited to an audition, and got the job because I was unemployed at the time, and free to spend six weeks, between eight and ten hours a day, at the rehearsals. All the other fiddlers, all of them spare time, "non-professional" session players, would have had to take time off from their jobs, which would have meant no vacation with their families that year (not that their bosses would have given them six weeks anyway...), so they were of course very reluctant to do this. None of them was worse than I was, and many were a lot better. But thatīs life. So I was discovered, sort of...
One way of making it in this business is trying to get on as many phone lists as possible, and then work your way to the top of it, in order to get the first call when somebody is looking for something. As long as you do a good job whenever your phone rings, youīll stay No. 1. If you are busy on a date, somebody else will get promoted to No. 1, and will try to stay there. If you do a bad job, your name might well be crossed out on this list, and whenever itīs mentioned in the presence of the producer, he will cringe. There are lists Iīve disappeared from.... But one job lead to the next, and Iīve decided to stick with it, and never looked back since. The only thing Iīm missing is a regular monthly paycheck, preferably with a predictable sum of money written on it. But one canīt have everything....
So, being professional just means one thing: Doing a good job, in whatever line of work that is.
And being a professional, in every line of work, usually means more than meets the outsiderīs eye. There are a quite a few brilliant players out there that donīt seem to know what is like watching them play on stage. In case somebody ever told them, theyīve decided to ignore it (and possibly with a good reason, who knows...). Well, whenever theyīre in town I ignore them, and listen to their CDs instead.
And then there are other performers, who are a sheer joy to watch and listen to, although I donīt find their musical abilities that impressing (which actually means little more than: I didnīt hear anything from him, or her, that made me sit up.) But it was great, entertaining, fun to be there, and the next time this artist is in town Iīll be queuing for tickets and tell others about how great a night Iīd had the last time, and that theyīd really be missing something if they didnīt go, too...
These are the pole positions. There is a whole world of performers between them. Some are bad, but working hard to get better. Others rely on their natural abilities to communicate with an audience, they just behave like they would in their own living room, and decided their training is finished, because it works. And some give up because they think theyīll never get there. It looks so easy when somebody does it whoīs good at it. What they donīt see is all the work and time that went into it to make it look easy (experience and practise!). And the best of the highly talented people donīt rely on it, but use their talent as a springboard, and practise every aspect of their art to become even better yet.
And, PLEASE, donīt get me wrong again. Iīm not talking about sessions. Iīm talking about work, and about doing a good job. And normally I donīt call myself a professional musician, because for me the word implies some level of technical competence I donīt feel Iīve reached yet. (And an applauding audience is very, very nice, but does not make me think automatically Iīm brilliant. I enjoy it, but I know better...) I play music for a living, which means earning my bread and butter, and a considerable amount of marmelade, by playing my music on stage, in front of people who pay money to spend an enjoyable evening -- and hopefully do so again the next time Iīm in town.
Somebody doing a good job wins my respect almost by default because I know itīs anything but easy to do that. One of the most gratifying things for me is meeting famous colleagues at a festival, and getting comments like: "I really liked what you did in "Humours of Wherever". But have you ever of thought of doing it more like....?" Or something like: "I think it would be even better if you did it like that..." Choice One: Iīm insulted and turn my back on him. And can rest assured that this person will never bother me with unasked for advice again. Choice Two: "Oh, ... err.... you mean I should put some more work into (whatever aspect of performing music publicly)...." Chances are that the resulting talk will teach me more about performing than half a year of rehearsals. Itīs a way to start friendships, too. And the next festival we meet at least this artist will greet me, and hopefully enjoy meeting me again, and maybe even comment on my progress...
"Der Weg ist das Ziel!" (donīt know who Iīm citing, some philosopher from India probably. Please, help me translating this, Manfred, or anybody else, I donīt know if thereīs an English equivalent to it, and the one Iīm having in mind might not make much sense in English...)
NOTHING of all of this applies to a session musician, UNLESS he decides for himself that his education isnīt as complete as he might wish it. Then itīs time to take a look at other musicians (not necessarily professionals) and try to find out what they do, and how theyīre doing it, to achieve what you donīt. One of the great things about playing trad. music on stage is that the audience to some degree expects normal everyday people up there. Itīs folk music after all. And itīs the small gestures that matter under these circumstances. Some things work well in the Yankee stadium, and just look ridiculous in the local town hall. Save them for the job in "Lord of the Dance"....
Back to the definition of music (after, once again, becoming a lot more wordy than I originally intended to -- sorry, so much to say...): If you can organize your noises, you are a musician. And what makes a musician a good one, Iīm sure everybody has his own ideas, resulting in setting his own personal priorities and goals. It takes all kinds to make a world. Iīd find it pretty boring if every fiddle player sounded like Frankie Gavin (to mention just one musician Iīd queue for...), or every actor tried to talk like Eddie Murphy (not sure about him...)
I can't draw a legalistic "bright line" between 'musician' and 'non-musician', but I believe there is a difference. Some who might think they are musicians, and even call themselves musicians, are not. (Read the threads about getting the guitar player to clam up, or the various gripes, for descriptions of some of these people. Anyone who is oblivious to how his or her playing is affecting the musical product of a group is NOT a musician.)
A musician is someone who thinks like a musician.
I believe this is analogous to speaking languages. My native language is English. I studied French in high school and college (not as a major, just as a language requirement). I reached the point where I could read technical papers well, literature less well but passably, and could converse in simple sentences with a patient, slow-speaking partner. I never became fluent. I never THOUGHT in French; I thought in English and translated into French. Similarly, I took piano lessons for several years during my childhood. I learned how to read treble and bass clef notation, where the notes were on the piano, and appropriate fingerings to play those notes. With practice, I developed the skill to play "Fur Elise" at appropriate tempo without hitting any wrong notes, mimicing the phrasing my teacher demonstrated. I was a player, but never a musician. I never reached fluency. I quit as soon as my parents allowed, and never went back to it.
Now, in mid-life, my interest in music has surged. After years of focusing on lyrics in music, I now listen almost exclusively to instrumental music. My goal, as I phrased it to myself, is to "become musical" -- I guess that means to become a musician, although it seems more presumptious when I say it that way. There are obvious physical skills I need to hone, mainly listening and hearing, as well as physical skills specific to my instrument of choice. There are memory skills: for playing ITM, I need to develop a knowledge base of tunes. The tunes have to make it into my head before they can come out of my fingers. A big part of learning to be musical is figuring out what it is I need to learn. (Suggestions happily accepted!) I'm starting from the assumption that I can learn it, and I'm having a great time trying.
Sarah, good for you! You've a good grasp on the fact that in Irish traditional music, listening IS practising. In ITM, the listening is almost more important than the rest of it, because it's all about the heart of the music, not the string of notes or even necessarily if that string is technically good (although of course that's nice too!).
After a while of listening, it'll want to come out the ends of your fingers or breath, and then it's a matter of technical skill. THEN it's hit your head against the wall, throw the fiddle into the traffic to get run over time. But you'll also have moments of brilliance to make up for it.
My only suggestion is to make sure that you listen mainly to the good stuff, although there's a place for the not so good stuff as well. Don't stop until you've come out the other side of thinking you know what the good stuff is, and know that the good stuff turns up in the most unlikely places. Learn from everybody, but know that sometimes you're going to learn not to do it that way.
Sounds to me like you're going to do great.
My own progress in the music reminds me of when I was a kid (ha, yeah, it was just when I was a kid, right!). When I was five, I thought to myself, hey, I'm all grown up from when I was four! Then when I was six, I became aware that I had been remarkably childish, and NOW I was all grown up. And so on, ad nauseum. And I kept thinking that at some magical age, I would be An Adult, and would never feel out of place or unsure again. Now, at 41, I'm aware that in real life, no one ever really feels grown up or knows the exact way to behave rightly. I seem to be backsliding.
How about this: A person is a musician when they are not more of anything else. I mean, if you are the prime minister and play music, you are not a "musician". You're more of a prime minister. Or if you're a serial killer who plays music, you're more of a psychopath than a musician.
Maybe you can honestly say you're a musician when everything else in your life takes a back seat. (With the exception of family and friends of course.)
Of course you can be a musician and have a day job. Would you try to get a week off work to get to a mighty Trad festival even if you knew you'd have catching up to do later? If so, then if your job isn't in the back seat, it must at least be in the passenger seat. Still, if you're here, and discussing it, you must be a musician. I've found the members here to be considerably well past the boundaries of musical dabbling, day jobs or no.
Has recorded music changed the standards?
I suspect that to the listening audience, true musicians are those who win the All Ireland and go on to record numerous CD's
The rest of us are mere merry peasantry.
Actually, in my experience, an audience can tell when a player loves the music - really truly madly deeply - and that affects their opinion on the performer's musical skill.
Your basic listening audience type doesn't give a rat's ass about competition and recording credits. Those things might bring them there, but charm, sensitivity, and connection make them stay, make them enjoy themselves, and make them tell all their friends about you later.
I do think that the quality and abundance of recorded music has upped the standards for technical competency, but that isn't the only (or even the most important) criteria for an audience deciding whether they're enjoying the music being inflicted on them.
I agree with Kerri--that people respond with passion to things done with passion. Audiences included.
One of my favorite cartoons on our fridge (keeping in mind that my husband is an alternative/industrial/goth dj) is one in which two thirty-something guys are walking along and talking about one of them not feeling particularly grown up because of not really being able to hear his "inner adult". The other one asks why. The first says that apparently it's because his inner adolescent has Nine Inch Nails cranked up on the inner boom box.
The music of MY soul appears to be some kind of weird college/AAA radio station playlist mixed up with a public radio station.
Ahhh, NPR National Public Radio, they play good music, well music you probably wouldnt hear on the radio otherwise. The news on NPR is another story its so stifled with dogmatic liberal rhetoric that its gained the term Nihilistic Pinko Radio in my book.
Im a big boy, just give me the facts & Ill form my own opinions, I think its insulting to every listeners intellect - regardless of their political views to be told what to think.
What is a musician?
What is a musician?
OK. Forget the professional musician. How 'bout just
"What is a musician?"
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a musician?
A musician is any and all of us, regardless of where we are in the learning scale (Pun) of music.
Are ya makin' music?
Why you be one of them thar musician folk types.
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a musician?
I forgot to add, we just happen to be them thar music folk type that's partial to ITM.
Well the JIG is up so I'll quit blowing my HORN and PIPE down and let someone else REEL in here.
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a musician?
Well, I happen to think there's a difference between being a player and being a musician, myself.
Zina
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a musician?
To paraphrase a comment I posted elsewhere (and to borrow again from some whistle web site--I'll go hunt down whose idea this was and give him credit):
If you sing or make noise on an instrument, you're a musician. If you enjoy that noise, you're a good musician. And if other people enjoy it, then you're doing fine.
On the other hand, H.L. Mencken (poster boy for the short-leash society) credits Antisthenes with this definition in reverse: "He must be a poor sort of man to be such a good piper."
Well, I've usually found the opposite to be true....
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: What is a musician?
wow,
it's all getting to the core of the issue now!!
We've moved from session etiquette, through profesional musicains and now we're finally defining ourselves.
I believe that we are all musicians once we make music. It's that simple.
You don't have to be performer, paid, or famous.
But I don't understand waht the difference is between a musician and a player...that one has me stumped.
I just hope I'm a musician...at some level anyway!
Andy
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Mcbear365
Re: What is a musician?
I got to thinking about that one myself Andy. I am (As I said at the beginning) inclined to believe that if your making music, your a musician.
It looks like a person could start splitting hairs with the issue, but I have to agree with you and Will.
From there on I think it get's into personal interpritation.
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a musician?
This is a hard one. I think that there *is* a difference between being someone who can play a musical instrument and a "musician". I think that being a musician implies some deeper knowledge of music and the understanding of how it all fits together, plus the ability to get the best out of his/her instrument. This isn't to dismiss or disrespect how hard it is *just* to learn to play an instrument decently. And I think that the longer a person plays the closer to being a musician one gets, just by playing. I hope....!!
But, then again, this could all be just my own insecurity about my own musical skills speaking
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by soft black stars
Re: What is a musician?
Most of the time I just go with the ideas I posted above, but I like Christine's sense of giving deeper meaning to the word musician. Sort of like saying that a really good, knowledgeable, well-rounded musician is a "musician's musician."
But I'm not sure that there's a clear set of criteria for measuring up. I've known some people who were eminently qualified as Musicians with a capital M, but their understanding of music theory was mostly instinctual, not analytical. They could improvise chord progressions till the cows came home, but they'd never heard of the circle of fifths, let alone studied it. Or take someone like J. P. Rampal. World class flutist, likely one of the best ever. And yet he rarely if ever plays without sheet music. Now in and of itself, that's no big deal. But someone like Charlie Parker or Eric Clapton or Stephane Grapelli (or most of us Irish players) might think it odd to always have the dots in front of them.
Does it make Rampal less of a musician? Not in my book. I think it just expands what we mean by that deeper sense of the word, and somewhere in there we need to leave some room for mystery. Where does music come from? How does it happen? Why? Individually, the answers range all over the place, and yet there's common ground.
Thank goodness....
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: What is a musician?
Maybe it's a right brain, left brain sort of thing... Not sure how, but you guys probably know better than me
Andy
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Mcbear365
Re: What is a musician?
(1) Rampal is (a) God.
(2) I don't know why, but we flutists always get away with having the sheet music. Everybody else has to memorize the music. Just another perk of being a flutist, i guess.
Let me just say thanks, it's so refreshing to be able to take 5 minutes from all the krap at work and have these conversations about music.
Maybe there is a difference between being a musician and a pwi (person-with-instrument). Or even worse, pwli (person-with-loud-instrument). The difference is subtle and subjective, and it's not defined by how good you are, thechnically. It's in your soul.
Oh yeah!
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by glauber
Re: What is a musician?
I remember a quote from a novel about Brian Boru ("The Lion of Ireland" or something like that). It refered to his son's ability on the harp. It said his son, "...had the technical ability to play a particular series of notes in a particular order, but he couldn't play music." This is an interesting thought to contemplate. However, I personally lean towards anyone who plays an instrument is a musician. The real distinction comes in terms of how good of a musician you are.
Jim
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Jiml
Re: What is a musician?
Perhaps that's what I more or less mean too, Jim...to me, a musician CARES -- cares about the music, cares about how it's handled, cares about how it's treated, and is passionate about all aspects of it, whether good-passionate or bad. There's good musicians and bad musicians, of course, we all know that, and there's lovely players, too.
I think I say that because to me a player plays music as an end to a means. To me, a musician plays music as the end AND the means -- it's the journey, more than anything else, as well as a metaphor for life, or at least for the musician's life.
This probably makes no sense. Sorry.
Zina
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
P.S. Flautists and music
Glauber, jaysus, don't ever let Shannon Heaton hear you say that point #2 out loud in front of God and everybody. You'll get the Famous Look.
Zina
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a musician?
Now I'm thinking about starting a discussion on what's a good musician and a bad one..........Mmmmmmmmmmaybe not,,,,,,,,,
It's gotten pretty complicated as it is.
I must admit, I have questioned my view of what makes a musician or a professional after reading everyones comments.
Lots of good stuff!
Tiny
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a musician?
Jim your quote reminds me of what Neils Bohr (sp?), the Nobel prize-wining physicist, once said to his son: "You're not thinking, you're merely being logical." I've been guilty of that myself, and musically as well--just muddying about with the notes. It's like the difference between going out for a jog and training to compete in the Olympic marathon.
Glauber, I've come to realize that all that sheet music is on hand to mop up the drool....
Will
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: What is a musician?
I get the question "What do you do?" quite often and I know people mean "What do you do for money" but since I'm a temp that varies from day to day, and by no means defines what I "do" (more what I *don't* do...) so I've taken to saying I'm a musician. Took a while for me to be able to say that, because it sounds delusional coming from someone hosing off golf carts for a living and because there's a lot of resentment in the general population towards people who refuse to define themselves by what they get paid for.
But really, that's what I do. I was born to do it, I do it all the time, I've never NOT done it, and it's the only thing I've ever done that's brought me such satisfaction and nearly unbearable joy. I've had dozens of "jobs", none of which came close to defining me. The only constant serious interest in my life is and always has been music. So if I don't fit into the category of "musician" I don't think anybody does. Anyway, when people ask, that's what I say, even if I am in the middle of sorting mail and collating faxes. Whenever I'm not using my brain at work, it is working on tunes.
Besides, now that I'm not a teenager any more, it's not quite so cliche.
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a musician?
Right, Will, that's what I was trying to express by saying the longer a person plays the more of a musician they become. Many really excellent musicians know all of the theory by instinct but couldn't explain it for nuthin' and never studied it, just as you pointed out. They just KNOW where to go and what to do with the music. It seems like magic to me but sometimes it must just come with years and years of playing. I would think Rampal can play without the sheet, if he wanted. Then again....
And caring about the music is a big part of it. Being nuts about it. Where having a free minute means reaching for your instrument if at all possible. Like Zina said, enjoying the journey.
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by soft black stars
Re: What is a musician?
Well, here's my definition, (and I realize that no two will be alike in this world) - - - a person who is deeply involved with music and somewhat skilled in it. I had a small role in a play in college, but I'm not an actor, I use to tune up the car, (before computers) but I'm not a mechanic, I've done small plumbing and electrical things around the house, but I'm not a plumber or electricain, ON and on, and I had to do all those things mainly because as a musician, I couldn't afford to hire those other experts, (hee hee)
I agree with the folks that lean toward a musician being one that Share, Cares, (but I've run into some exceptions that don't do either)
but ONE that truly loves Making Music and one that considers Music to be their "Main Thing" and as Kerri said, "I've never NOT done it"
We used to say "heavy into it". !
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Carl Conn
Re: What is a musician?
A definition of music by one of my professors back from my studying days was: "Music is organized noise!" He was quite well-known as a composer in the scene of "Modern Music", electronic stuff and things like that. The university was very proud to have him, and the pieces by him that I knew, and occasionally (as member of the university choir and the orchestra) had to perform, were very noisy indeed. As a rule they were always more fun to perform than to listen to. That experience has led me to the theory that music basically is something to take part in actively, not just listen (and judge) passively. How many people are there that tell you they like this sort and hate the other, and they only buy a CD because some radio guy tells them itīs No. 1 in the charts?
The question has changed a little in the meantime, but nevertheless let me put this from the point of view of one who is actually earning his money by playing music. Maybe one or two of you out there are interested. (All the others, skip this!) I wonīt play on this forever I promise. And after this I will have said all there is to it anyway.
I have become a professional musician by chance. A director of a big theatre in Hamburg was looking for an Irish fiddle player for a play set in Dublin, and I was one name on a list that he got from asking around in the session venues. He had worked in Dublin for years, knew the music, and knew what he was looking for. I was invited to an audition, and got the job because I was unemployed at the time, and free to spend six weeks, between eight and ten hours a day, at the rehearsals. All the other fiddlers, all of them spare time, "non-professional" session players, would have had to take time off from their jobs, which would have meant no vacation with their families that year (not that their bosses would have given them six weeks anyway...), so they were of course very reluctant to do this. None of them was worse than I was, and many were a lot better. But thatīs life. So I was discovered, sort of...
One way of making it in this business is trying to get on as many phone lists as possible, and then work your way to the top of it, in order to get the first call when somebody is looking for something. As long as you do a good job whenever your phone rings, youīll stay No. 1. If you are busy on a date, somebody else will get promoted to No. 1, and will try to stay there. If you do a bad job, your name might well be crossed out on this list, and whenever itīs mentioned in the presence of the producer, he will cringe. There are lists Iīve disappeared from.... But one job lead to the next, and Iīve decided to stick with it, and never looked back since. The only thing Iīm missing is a regular monthly paycheck, preferably with a predictable sum of money written on it. But one canīt have everything....
So, being professional just means one thing: Doing a good job, in whatever line of work that is.
And being a professional, in every line of work, usually means more than meets the outsiderīs eye. There are a quite a few brilliant players out there that donīt seem to know what is like watching them play on stage. In case somebody ever told them, theyīve decided to ignore it (and possibly with a good reason, who knows...). Well, whenever theyīre in town I ignore them, and listen to their CDs instead.
And then there are other performers, who are a sheer joy to watch and listen to, although I donīt find their musical abilities that impressing (which actually means little more than: I didnīt hear anything from him, or her, that made me sit up.) But it was great, entertaining, fun to be there, and the next time this artist is in town Iīll be queuing for tickets and tell others about how great a night Iīd had the last time, and that theyīd really be missing something if they didnīt go, too...
These are the pole positions. There is a whole world of performers between them. Some are bad, but working hard to get better. Others rely on their natural abilities to communicate with an audience, they just behave like they would in their own living room, and decided their training is finished, because it works. And some give up because they think theyīll never get there. It looks so easy when somebody does it whoīs good at it. What they donīt see is all the work and time that went into it to make it look easy (experience and practise!). And the best of the highly talented people donīt rely on it, but use their talent as a springboard, and practise every aspect of their art to become even better yet.
And, PLEASE, donīt get me wrong again. Iīm not talking about sessions. Iīm talking about work, and about doing a good job. And normally I donīt call myself a professional musician, because for me the word implies some level of technical competence I donīt feel Iīve reached yet. (And an applauding audience is very, very nice, but does not make me think automatically Iīm brilliant. I enjoy it, but I know better...) I play music for a living, which means earning my bread and butter, and a considerable amount of marmelade, by playing my music on stage, in front of people who pay money to spend an enjoyable evening -- and hopefully do so again the next time Iīm in town.
Somebody doing a good job wins my respect almost by default because I know itīs anything but easy to do that. One of the most gratifying things for me is meeting famous colleagues at a festival, and getting comments like: "I really liked what you did in "Humours of Wherever". But have you ever of thought of doing it more like....?" Or something like: "I think it would be even better if you did it like that..." Choice One: Iīm insulted and turn my back on him. And can rest assured that this person will never bother me with unasked for advice again. Choice Two: "Oh, ... err.... you mean I should put some more work into (whatever aspect of performing music publicly)...." Chances are that the resulting talk will teach me more about performing than half a year of rehearsals. Itīs a way to start friendships, too. And the next festival we meet at least this artist will greet me, and hopefully enjoy meeting me again, and maybe even comment on my progress...
"Der Weg ist das Ziel!" (donīt know who Iīm citing, some philosopher from India probably. Please, help me translating this, Manfred, or anybody else, I donīt know if thereīs an English equivalent to it, and the one Iīm having in mind might not make much sense in English...)
NOTHING of all of this applies to a session musician, UNLESS he decides for himself that his education isnīt as complete as he might wish it. Then itīs time to take a look at other musicians (not necessarily professionals) and try to find out what they do, and how theyīre doing it, to achieve what you donīt. One of the great things about playing trad. music on stage is that the audience to some degree expects normal everyday people up there. Itīs folk music after all. And itīs the small gestures that matter under these circumstances. Some things work well in the Yankee stadium, and just look ridiculous in the local town hall. Save them for the job in "Lord of the Dance"....
Back to the definition of music (after, once again, becoming a lot more wordy than I originally intended to -- sorry, so much to say...): If you can organize your noises, you are a musician. And what makes a musician a good one, Iīm sure everybody has his own ideas, resulting in setting his own personal priorities and goals. It takes all kinds to make a world. Iīd find it pretty boring if every fiddle player sounded like Frankie Gavin (to mention just one musician Iīd queue for...), or every actor tried to talk like Eddie Murphy (not sure about him...)
Happy weekend everybody,
Jörg
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Joerg Froese
A beginner's viewpoint
I can't draw a legalistic "bright line" between 'musician' and 'non-musician', but I believe there is a difference. Some who might think they are musicians, and even call themselves musicians, are not. (Read the threads about getting the guitar player to clam up, or the various gripes, for descriptions of some of these people. Anyone who is oblivious to how his or her playing is affecting the musical product of a group is NOT a musician.)
A musician is someone who thinks like a musician.
I believe this is analogous to speaking languages. My native language is English. I studied French in high school and college (not as a major, just as a language requirement). I reached the point where I could read technical papers well, literature less well but passably, and could converse in simple sentences with a patient, slow-speaking partner. I never became fluent. I never THOUGHT in French; I thought in English and translated into French. Similarly, I took piano lessons for several years during my childhood. I learned how to read treble and bass clef notation, where the notes were on the piano, and appropriate fingerings to play those notes. With practice, I developed the skill to play "Fur Elise" at appropriate tempo without hitting any wrong notes, mimicing the phrasing my teacher demonstrated. I was a player, but never a musician. I never reached fluency. I quit as soon as my parents allowed, and never went back to it.
Now, in mid-life, my interest in music has surged. After years of focusing on lyrics in music, I now listen almost exclusively to instrumental music. My goal, as I phrased it to myself, is to "become musical" -- I guess that means to become a musician, although it seems more presumptious when I say it that way. There are obvious physical skills I need to hone, mainly listening and hearing, as well as physical skills specific to my instrument of choice. There are memory skills: for playing ITM, I need to develop a knowledge base of tunes. The tunes have to make it into my head before they can come out of my fingers. A big part of learning to be musical is figuring out what it is I need to learn. (Suggestions happily accepted!) I'm starting from the assumption that I can learn it, and I'm having a great time trying.
Sarah
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by x
Re: What is a musician?
Jorg, I enjoy every chapter of the novel you are serially writing in here.
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: What is a musician?
Sarah, good for you! You've a good grasp on the fact that in Irish traditional music, listening IS practising. In ITM, the listening is almost more important than the rest of it, because it's all about the heart of the music, not the string of notes or even necessarily if that string is technically good (although of course that's nice too!).
But you'll also have moments of brilliance to make up for it.
After a while of listening, it'll want to come out the ends of your fingers or breath, and then it's a matter of technical skill. THEN it's hit your head against the wall, throw the fiddle into the traffic to get run over time.
My only suggestion is to make sure that you listen mainly to the good stuff, although there's a place for the not so good stuff as well. Don't stop until you've come out the other side of thinking you know what the good stuff is, and know that the good stuff turns up in the most unlikely places. Learn from everybody, but know that sometimes you're going to learn not to do it that way.
Sounds to me like you're going to do great.
My own progress in the music reminds me of when I was a kid (ha, yeah, it was just when I was a kid, right!). When I was five, I thought to myself, hey, I'm all grown up from when I was four! Then when I was six, I became aware that I had been remarkably childish, and NOW I was all grown up. And so on, ad nauseum. And I kept thinking that at some magical age, I would be An Adult, and would never feel out of place or unsure again. Now, at 41, I'm aware that in real life, no one ever really feels grown up or knows the exact way to behave rightly. I seem to be backsliding.
Same thing with the music.
Zina
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a musician?
How about this: A person is a musician when they are not more of anything else. I mean, if you are the prime minister and play music, you are not a "musician". You're more of a prime minister. Or if you're a serial killer who plays music, you're more of a psychopath than a musician.
Maybe you can honestly say you're a musician when everything else in your life takes a back seat. (With the exception of family and friends of course.)
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a musician?
Here's one for you. (Mostly just being silly here)
While you are playing music, you are a musician, when you stop, your not.
Hmmmm,,,,
Probably not.
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a musician?
If you CAN stop, you were never really a musician in the first place.
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a musician?
Could a person say they are a part time musician?
Such as in my case, my primary source of income is my day job, but I make money part time as( dare I call myself this) a musician.
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a musician?
Amen Fiddler on vermouth.
When it's in your blood, stopping is not an opption.
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a musician?
Of course you can be a musician and have a day job. Would you try to get a week off work to get to a mighty Trad festival even if you knew you'd have catching up to do later? If so, then if your job isn't in the back seat, it must at least be in the passenger seat. Still, if you're here, and discussing it, you must be a musician. I've found the members here to be considerably well past the boundaries of musical dabbling, day jobs or no.
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a musician?
Good point. My day job is seriously interfering with my proffession.
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a musician?
Has recorded music changed the standards?
I suspect that to the listening audience, true musicians are those who win the All Ireland and go on to record numerous CD's
The rest of us are mere merry peasantry.
# Posted on February 25th 2002 by paulilittle
Re: What is a musician?
Actually, in my experience, an audience can tell when a player loves the music - really truly madly deeply - and that affects their opinion on the performer's musical skill.
Your basic listening audience type doesn't give a rat's ass about competition and recording credits. Those things might bring them there, but charm, sensitivity, and connection make them stay, make them enjoy themselves, and make them tell all their friends about you later.
# Posted on February 26th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a musician?
I do think that the quality and abundance of recorded music has upped the standards for technical competency, but that isn't the only (or even the most important) criteria for an audience deciding whether they're enjoying the music being inflicted on them.
I agree with Kerri--that people respond with passion to things done with passion. Audiences included.
# Posted on February 26th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: What is a musician?
You can't change the music of your soul.
# Posted on March 1st 2002 by linda
Re: What is a musician?
One of my favorite cartoons on our fridge (keeping in mind that my husband is an alternative/industrial/goth dj) is one in which two thirty-something guys are walking along and talking about one of them not feeling particularly grown up because of not really being able to hear his "inner adult". The other one asks why. The first says that apparently it's because his inner adolescent has Nine Inch Nails cranked up on the inner boom box.
The music of MY soul appears to be some kind of weird college/AAA radio station playlist mixed up with a public radio station.
Zina
# Posted on March 1st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a musician?
Apparently, the music of my soul today is "play that funky music, white boy" on perpetual loop.
# Posted on March 1st 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a musician?
Ahhh, NPR National Public Radio, they play good music, well music you probably wouldnt hear on the radio otherwise. The news on NPR is another story its so stifled with dogmatic liberal rhetoric that its gained the term Nihilistic Pinko Radio in my book.
Im a big boy, just give me the facts & Ill form my own opinions, I think its insulting to every listeners intellect - regardless of their political views to be told what to think.
# Posted on March 1st 2002 by Mad Baloney